/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-05-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 26 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <AryehGregor> Also, I read in the Slashdot summary something like "Most users know by now not to click links in suspicious e-mails", and whoever wrote that instantly lost all credibility in my eyes.
  4. # [00:00] <Philip`> The problem is clicking links in non-suspicious emails
  5. # [00:01] <Philip`> It's no good if you're only protecting yourself against incompetent attackers who can't make a plausible-looking email
  6. # [00:01] <svl> I don't think this was ever intended to be this widely hyped and re-reported. Just part of the thinking process about the new Firefox account manager, and what sort of potential situations it'd need to deal with
  7. # [00:01] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.19.26)
  8. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> I was going to say, the Firefox Account Manager is the right way to go here, to fight phishing.
  9. # [00:04] <AryehGregor> This doesn't seem like it needs different types of countermeasures to usual phishing, does it?
  10. # [00:04] <AryehGregor> Seems not.
  11. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> It is a pretty slick demonstration, though.
  12. # [00:05] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
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  16. # [00:18] <chris_7> TabAtkins, Do you know of a Lisp specific irc channel I can join? I'm probably going to be needing it soon.
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  18. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> I do not, unfortunately.
  19. # [00:18] <chris_7> Unfortunate
  20. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Though there is #lisp on freenode.
  21. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Which has a lot of people in it
  22. # [00:19] <chris_7> Thanks :) I'd rather use there to ask questions about it. Want to stay on channel topic
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  38. # [00:49] <MikeSmith> very cool to see that Mozilla is now getting a built-in DOM inspector
  39. # [00:49] <MikeSmith> already now in Minefield
  40. # [00:49] <MikeSmith> http://antennasoft.net/robcee/2010/05/14/inspector-landing/
  41. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> Ah, really?
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  43. # [00:49] <Rik`> MikeSmith: I don't understand why it has to be a new tool
  44. # [00:49] * micheil_mbp is now known as micheil
  45. # [00:50] <MikeSmith> http://antennasoft.net/robcee/2010/05/21/inspector-impetus/
  46. # [00:50] <Rik`> I've already read that and it's not explaining anything
  47. # [00:50] <MikeSmith> Rik`: you mean as opposed to building with Firebug or the existing DOM Inspector extension?
  48. # [00:50] <Rik`> yep
  49. # [00:51] <Rik`> it's not introducing a new UI from the screenshots I've seen
  50. # [00:51] <boblet> wow, you’re up early Mike. meetings?
  51. # [00:52] <MikeSmith> there seem to be some good clarifications in the comments of http://antennasoft.net/robcee/2010/05/21/inspector-impetus/
  52. # [00:52] <MikeSmith> comment from Colby Russell
  53. # [00:53] <MikeSmith> and from Rob too
  54. # [00:53] <MikeSmith> e.g., " It’d be technically difficult to include Firebug in its entirety in Firefox, requiring a significant rewrite to get the code in line with the browser’s."
  55. # [00:54] <MikeSmith> and from Colby: Firebug guys have their own approach and way of development, outside of Mozilla’s infrastructure" but .." there’s nothing saying future convergence is out of the question. "
  56. # [00:55] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I was glad to see this too.
  57. # [00:55] <MikeSmith> boblet: yeah
  58. # [00:55] <AryehGregor> It will be quite a while till it gets up to speed with WebKit's Web Inspector, I'd guess, let alone Firebug (which is reportedly better than WebKit's Web Inspector but I never noticed).
  59. # [00:55] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: true that
  60. # [00:55] <AryehGregor> (although I did notice when I used Firebug in Firefox and Gmail warned me that I should disable it or else it would slow down the site)
  61. # [00:56] <AryehGregor> (I think they eventually fixed that)
  62. # [00:56] <MikeSmith> wow, yeah I hope so
  63. # [00:56] <Rik`> MikeSmith: I don't get the point of including a less powerful and stable tool inside Firefox
  64. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> Yeah, they fixed that a long time ago.
  65. # [00:57] <AryehGregor> That was before they required you to enable the Net tab on a site-by-site basis.
  66. # [00:57] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: anyway, it seems like Rob has carved out some time to work on it in earnest so I'd expect to see it improve pretty quickly
  67. # [00:57] <Rik`> I mean every web developer that needs a tool knows Firebug
  68. # [00:57] <AryehGregor> Rik`, because it will be *more* stable in the long run, and will be available when you're debugging some random dude's computer.
  69. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> I find Firebug to be *much* better than Webkit's inspector, but that may be partially just usability.
  70. # [00:57] <MikeSmith> Rik`: what AryehGregor said
  71. # [00:57] <AryehGregor> It will actually be available consistently.
  72. # [00:58] <AryehGregor> Like, you know, you don't have to wait for Firebug to be released for the new Firefox version, and upgrade it separately.
  73. # [00:58] <Rik`> that's a separate problem
  74. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> (Though, a recent change where hovering an element in firebug makes a box pop up with inherent dimensions is actually *really freaking annoying*.)
  75. # [00:58] <AryehGregor> No it's not, it's inherent to the separate development as an extension.
  76. # [00:58] <AryehGregor> Or maybe to Firefox's unstable extension interface that breaks on every release.
  77. # [00:58] <Rik`> 3.6 came with a stable version of Firebug
  78. # [00:59] <AryehGregor> Well, that's after I stopped using Firefox as my main browser, so I can't say.
  79. # [00:59] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, what features does Firebug have that you miss in WebKit's Web Inspector?
  80. # [00:59] <boblet> Rik`: not having it as part of Firefox is starting to seem strange, as all the other browsers have (or apparently will have) dev tools bundled
  81. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I don't think you can add CSS rules directly to particular declaration blocks in webkit's inspector.
  82. # [01:00] <boblet> (fingers crossed that the IE team feels embarrassed enough to make something half way usable for IE9)
  83. # [01:00] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, I'm pretty sure you can.
  84. # [01:00] <Rik`> boblet: they have a dev tool in IE8 already
  85. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Could you tell me how? ^_^ I'm clicking around in the logical areas and nothing useful is happening.
  86. # [01:01] <Rik`> but you don't have to make a new tool to get Firebug installed with Firefox
  87. # [01:01] <boblet> Rik`: not quite Dragonfly/Inspector level yet tho
  88. # [01:01] <Rik`> TabAtkins: double clicking
  89. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> That lets me edit a particular rule in a block, but not to add new rules.
  90. # [01:02] <Rik`> TabAtkins: tabbing to the last rule
  91. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> Rik`: Ah, got it.
  92. # [01:03] <Rik`> you also have a "New style rule" option in the gear menu
  93. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> Well, I guess that's about everything then. The rest of the things I use is here now (last time I seriously tried to use webkit's inspector it was much simpler).
  94. # [01:04] <Rik`> there has been a lot of work from Google guys
  95. # [01:05] <Rik`> anyway, creating a new tool from nothing just to make it a default seems like dividing the amount of work by two on each tool
  96. # [01:06] <MikeSmith> http://www.openvideoconference.org/proposals/ "We are now accepting proposals for panels, presentations, workshop sessions, demo sessions, and other programming for the next Open Video Conference in New York City"
  97. # [01:06] <MikeSmith> deadline June 7
  98. # [01:06] <Rik`> TabAtkins: do you know if there has been a lot of requests for nested rules in CSS ?
  99. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> Rik`: Well, it's a feature of every CSS preprocessor I know of.
  100. # [01:08] <Rik`> the only reference I could find on www-style is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009May/0028.html
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  103. # [01:09] <Rik`> that's my point exactly : seeing it in a lot of preprocessors means there is a real need
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  114. # [01:30] <dbaron> annevk, TabAtkins, I did start writing up definitions of how intrinsic sizing works in http://dbaron.org/css/intrinsic/ , but I didn't get all that far
  115. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> Yay dbaron! Now just get further and we'll publish that bad boy.
  116. # [01:31] <roc> There are various issues with Firebug
  117. # [01:31] <roc> since it doesn't live in mozilla-central, it's hard to have automated tests that test it all the time
  118. # [01:32] <roc> because it needs to run with older versions of Firefox, the Firebug devs have a tendency to hack around platform bugs/limitations rather than just fix them
  119. # [01:33] <dbaron> I think the solution is dropping the "need" to run with older versions and evolve the two together, but anyway...
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  136. # [02:04] <kangax> Has anyone noticed any regressions in canvas rendering in latest chrome (5.x) and webkit nightlies? Doesn't happen in Safari 4.x
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  170. # [03:44] <MikeSmithX> boblet: revised flowchart looks great
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  175. # [03:53] <MikeSmith> aboodman: about Grant Simpon's comment on the "Installable web apps" thread, maybe something like "dockable web apps" would be a better term
  176. # [03:54] * MikeSmith tries to think of better synonyms for "dockable"
  177. # [03:58] <karlcow> MikeSmith: booglable web apps?
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  179. # [04:11] <wirepair> persistent web apps? ;>
  180. # [04:12] <MikeSmith> I think "persistent" has the same risk of confusion as "installable"
  181. # [04:13] <wirepair> true ;/
  182. # [04:13] <wirepair> that's a tricky one
  183. # [04:14] <karlcow> :)
  184. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> I do like "booglable" though
  185. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> karlcow: you should trademark that
  186. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=booglable&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
  187. # [04:16] <karlcow> hehe
  188. # [04:17] <karlcow> No match for "BOOGLABLE.COM".
  189. # [04:17] <karlcow> >>> Last update of whois database: Wed, 26 May 2010 02:14:16 UTC <<<
  190. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> close enough to "buggerable"
  191. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> maybe too close for comfort
  192. # [04:19] <boblet> i was thinking it was French for booger-able
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  194. # [04:19] <boblet> stuff always sounds better in French
  195. # [04:19] <boblet> MikeSmith: thanks for your feedback on the flowchart yo
  196. # [04:20] * MikeSmith hopes that some of this will show up in the next round of random quotes from #whatwg on the #hybi list
  197. # [04:20] <boblet> heh
  198. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> boblet: cheers
  199. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> gotta drop off
  200. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> bbiab
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  257. # [10:22] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010May/0504.html -- makes sense to me. Anyone here thinks the callback should not become a simple boolean?
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  260. # [10:33] <annevk> #whatwg has spoken -- BooleanCallback it is for now :p
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  278. # [12:09] <jgraham> hsivonen: java.lang.ClassCastException: org.xml.sax.InputSource cannot be cast to nu.validator.xml.TypedInputSource when starting validator.nu
  279. # [12:10] <jgraham> Did I do something obvious wrong?
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  288. # [12:28] <hsivonen> jgraham: no, you didn't. that's the #1 V.nu local use FAQ
  289. # [12:28] <hsivonen> jgraham: have you tried rerunning python build/build.py localent?
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  291. # [12:35] <jgraham> hsivonen: There is an FAQ? I should have checked, really...
  292. # [12:42] <jgraham> hsivonen: running that didn't make any difference
  293. # [12:42] <jgraham> (where is the FAQ?)
  294. # [12:45] <jgraham> Oh it works now
  295. # [12:45] <jgraham> No idea if I changed anything
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  300. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> jgraham: nothing changed -- the problem is that the build always fails with that message the first time you run it
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  302. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> from a fresh checkout
  303. # [13:08] <jgraham> Ummm....
  304. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> running the build a second time fixes it
  305. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> that rebuilds the necessary localent stuff
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  307. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> it's definitely something that should be changed in the build file
  308. # [13:09] <jgraham> Ah, OK
  309. # [13:10] <jgraham> MikeSmith, hsivonen: thanks for the help
  310. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> I guess we could work around it for now by tweaking the build file to cause the build to be run twice the first time you check out
  311. # [13:12] <sid__> hi i wanted to ask about webstorage in HTML5.. When we use the anonymous functions in the callback like executeSql i think I am facing there are some scope related problems while setting variables ... does any one know how to safely set the scope of local variables from inside of anonymous functions?
  312. # [13:12] <sid__> am new to js...
  313. # [13:14] <jgraham> sid__: Possibly you just need to use "var foo = bar" rather than "foo = bar". Otherwise I don't understand the question
  314. # [13:14] <annevk> using the var statement should help
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  316. # [13:14] <jgraham> Javascript is so awesome. How could making variables lobal by default possibly go wrong?
  317. # [13:15] <jgraham> *global
  318. # [13:15] * Philip` finds function-scoping much more annoying than default-global
  319. # [13:15] <gsnedders> jgraham: At least ECMAScript doesn't ahve that behaviour inherently
  320. # [13:15] <jgraham> As opposed to block scoping?
  321. # [13:15] <Philip`> Yes
  322. # [13:15] <jgraham> gsnedders: Huh?
  323. # [13:16] <gsnedders> Most (all?) ES shells will throw ReferenceError if you do (function(){foo=1;})();
  324. # [13:17] <Philip`> (since I want to do "for (var i = 0; i < 4; ++i) setTimeout(function() { alert(i) }, 100)" etc, instead of having to write it more like "for (var i = 0; i < 4; ++i) (function(i){setTimeout(function() { alert(i) }, 100)})(i)")
  325. # [13:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: No they won't
  326. # [13:18] * gsnedders wonders what he's misremebering
  327. # [13:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: They way that variablke scoping works in ECMAScript?
  328. # [13:19] <sid__> http://pastebin.com/n8Yk4fQ6
  329. # [13:19] <sid__> hi here is an example
  330. # [13:19] <sid__> the variable var1
  331. # [13:19] <jgraham> Philip`: That is a pretty special case
  332. # [13:19] <sid__> is not getting set...
  333. # [13:19] <jgraham> Philip`: (although I don't disagree)
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  335. # [13:21] <sid__> jgraham: one simple way would be to make a class for call backs and set the variables to fetch from there... but is there a simpler way?
  336. # [13:21] <Philip`> jgraham: I encountered it several times before understanding what the problem really was
  337. # [13:22] <Philip`> mostly when doing stuff like dynamically creating lots of scripted buttons
  338. # [13:22] <jgraham> Philip`: Ah, I have never done that
  339. # [13:23] <sid__> Is this all about understanding of closures?
  340. # [13:24] <jgraham> sid__: I assume your problem is that the callback is async so it hasn't been run when the function returns
  341. # [13:24] <jgraham> (the closure stuff looks fine)
  342. # [13:25] <sid__> jgraham: So how to solve this?
  343. # [13:25] <jgraham> sid__: I don't know what you are actually trying to achieve
  344. # [13:25] <jgraham> But you don't want to block on an SQL query running
  345. # [13:26] <sid__> well i am trying to return a result set to a calling function...
  346. # [13:26] <sid__> do i use the synchronus stuff mentioned in the w3c standard?
  347. # [13:27] <Philip`> The database API is asynchronous, so you can't return a result from it synchronously
  348. # [13:27] <sid__> Philip`: there is a section 4.4 that says someting about syncro stuff http://dev.w3.org/html5/webdatabase
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  350. # [13:28] <Philip`> Oh, okay
  351. # [13:28] * Philip` doesn't actually know anything about the database API
  352. # [13:28] <sid__> oh!
  353. # [13:29] <sid__> so the only way to process is supplying a call back function?
  354. # [13:29] <sid__> as in when the query completes...
  355. # [13:29] <sid__> ?
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  357. # [13:30] <Philip`> Looks like the synchronous API is only available in workers, not in normal web page scripts
  358. # [13:30] <Philip`> so you have to use the async one
  359. # [13:30] <sid__> hmm
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  361. # [13:30] <sid__> no but
  362. # [13:30] <sid__> i think
  363. # [13:30] <Philip`> which means using a callback function instead of a return value
  364. # [13:31] <sid__> Thnks!
  365. # [13:31] <sid__> was about to split my head over that!
  366. # [13:31] <Philip`> (It's a bit of a pain that you have to rearchitect large parts of the application when adding a single asynchronous operation into the middle of it)
  367. # [13:32] <jgraham> Philip`: It's not really clear how to avoid that pain though
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  369. # [13:32] <Philip`> You can avoid it by starting with an asynchronous design
  370. # [13:33] <hsivonen> jgraham: there's no written FAQ. your question is just the most frequent question I get
  371. # [13:34] <Philip`> (or using a programming environment that makes everything asynchronous automatically)
  372. # [13:34] <sid__> Philip`: perhaps some neat design pattern
  373. # [13:34] <sid__> probably event based tuff
  374. # [13:34] <sid__> stuff*
  375. # [13:34] <sid__> Philip`: and yes i will have to rewrite my app again :(
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  378. # [13:37] <jgraham> Philip`: Having a programming environement that makes everything async probably trades simplicity in simple cases for simplicity in complex cases
  379. # [13:37] <jgraham> Although it is also likely appropriate for the web
  380. # [13:39] <annevk> sid__, you could use a worker
  381. # [13:42] <sid__> annevk: let me see...
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  383. # [13:46] <sid__> annevk: so the use the synchronus elements instead of the asynchronus ones...Is the solution just that simple...?
  384. # [13:47] <sid__> BTW the only difference in the API is that the call back and the error functions are not there...
  385. # [13:47] <sid__> i mean the diff between API of the async and synchro stuff...
  386. # [13:48] <Philip`> sid__: Workers can't e.g. access the DOM, so you'd have to tell a worker to do the database operations and then (asynchronously) get the results back and display them
  387. # [13:48] <Philip`> so it wouldn't necessarily be much simpler
  388. # [13:49] <jgraham> Workers seem more complex
  389. # [13:49] <jgraham> In general
  390. # [13:49] <jgraham> Does Mobile Safari even support workers?
  391. # [13:49] <annevk> sid__, the database interaction would be synchronous, but the UI interaction would be asynchronous
  392. # [13:49] <jgraham> (I assume that's what you are targetting, although I would be happy to be wrong)
  393. # [13:50] <sid__> well i am making a scrapbook plugin for Chrome...:)
  394. # [13:50] <sid__> And saving the data in the provided webstorage
  395. # [13:50] <jgraham> Ah OK
  396. # [13:50] <jgraham> Well workers are a possibility then
  397. # [13:50] <sid__> the operations are to simply store and retrieve data elements
  398. # [13:50] <jgraham> although I doubt they help much in this case
  399. # [13:52] <sid__> jgraham: I assume that i can simply return the result set *after the call completes* with workers to solve my problems...
  400. # [13:52] <sid__> Let me try\
  401. # [13:52] <sid__> Thanks
  402. # [13:52] <annevk> hsivonen, nice email
  403. # [13:53] <annevk> I hadn't read the specific approach Google was proposing yet. I agree that the centralized solution they propose is wrong.
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  405. # [14:01] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks. do you know / can you say if Opera has reconsidered the widget stuff in light of the HTML5 app cache?
  406. # [14:02] <hsivonen> that is, if Opera were starting without a widget legacy, would there still be good reasons to do widgets instead of pinning stuff to HTML5 app cache?
  407. # [14:03] <annevk> opinions vary :)
  408. # [14:03] <hsivonen> annevk: I see
  409. # [14:07] <annevk> you can see some of them on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010AprJun/ "[widgets] Zip vs GZip Tar"
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  413. # [14:17] <Lachy> Widgets make some sense for a limited set of use cases. There are still some things that widgets can do that web apps and app cache currently can't do well
  414. # [14:18] <jgraham> sid__: Why do you need workers to do that?
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  441. # [16:38] <annevk> oh hey, tantek works for Mozilla now, cool
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  443. # [16:39] <Peter`> Just read Chris Wilson's tweet about it
  444. # [16:42] <annevk> same here :)
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  446. # [16:48] * gsnedders saw arun's
  447. # [16:54] <annevk> http://arunranga.com/blog/2010/05/tantek-celik-working-with-mozilla/ lets hope he does figure out those form controls
  448. # [16:54] <annevk> though last time I talked about it with tantek he described it as a solved problem; hopefully that changed :)
  449. # [16:54] <Peter`> A really small comment about http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ : the footer's background colour (blue) is exactly the same as the anchor-colour (Sam Ruby and Michael(tm) Smith), making these unreadable without selecting them
  450. # [16:56] <Peter`> I probably have to e-mail that to someone (though it's rather non-important)
  451. # [16:57] <jgraham> Peter`: Dunno who has access to that; maybe MikeSmith or othermaciej
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  458. # [17:03] <annevk> yeah bug mike
  459. # [17:04] <jgraham> annevk: I see yo have discovered the 60s :)
  460. # [17:04] <jgraham> Actually 50s
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  463. # [17:06] <annevk> jgraham, making my way back in time, ever so slowly
  464. # [17:07] <annevk> I really like that quote, still have to finish part of the book though
  465. # [17:09] <jgraham> annevk: I have never quite got into Kerouac; I mean I read On The Road and then tried Big Sur but sort of got fed up with the wall of text thing
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  473. # [17:47] <TabAtkins> Ah, tantek wants to work on flexbox too. Interesting.
  474. # [17:47] <TabAtkins> I'd better get some time with him, then.
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  477. # [17:50] <AryehGregor> Note to self: when Mozilla blog says "(can freeze your browser)", it means it.
  478. # [17:51] <AryehGregor> It froze half my tabs in Chrome.
  479. # [17:51] <AryehGregor> I'm impressed.
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  486. # [18:13] <zcorpan_> yay benchmark: http://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/05/better-performance-with-lazy-frame-construction/ opera 10.54: 2740ms/113ms, minefield: 1966ms/194ms, chrome dev: 80631ms/86ms
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  492. # [18:21] <AryehGregor> Oh, so you're saying it wasn't actually frozen, just spending 80 s doing the computation?
  493. # [18:21] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
  494. # [18:22] <zcorpan_> seems so
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  496. # [18:25] <annevk> whoa, we should fix layout
  497. # [18:25] <zcorpan_> annevk: we're not horribly slow like chrome
  498. # [18:25] <zcorpan_> but clearly it can be optimized
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  500. # [18:27] <annevk> oh wait, got the first number wrong
  501. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> Chrome is amazingly terrible. How real-world is this benchmark, I wonder?
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  504. # [18:29] <annevk> zcorpan_, waiting for the day that layout is 10x faster
  505. # [18:29] <zcorpan_> annevk: yeah, annoying javascript gets all the benchmark attention
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  507. # [18:31] <zcorpan_> s/benchmark/optimization/
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  515. # [18:53] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Easy to measure?
  516. # [18:53] <jgraham> I mean as a reason that js gets all the attention
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  518. # [18:54] <jgraham> Although it is really important for e.g. canvas games
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  531. # [19:38] <annevk> bit of shame we called it "CACHE MANIFEST"
  532. # [19:39] <annevk> would be kind of natural to use that file for application data
  533. # [19:40] <annevk> though I guess we could just ignore the name and all
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  540. # [19:58] <othermaciej> WebKit can actually do lazy construction of render objects so I wonder why that benchmark is slow
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  543. # [20:00] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Because it's not actually doing it?
  544. # [20:01] <othermaciej> gsnedders: my guess would be that something else is pathologically slow but I could be wrong
  545. # [20:03] <othermaciej> I don't think there is acttually an element with id="lastchild" in the document
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  547. # [20:04] <othermaciej> I bet what happens is our getElementById is slow when no element with that id is present, or something like that
  548. # [20:05] <othermaciej> so container.insertBefore(div, lastchild) ends up being just a funny way to say container.append(div)
  549. # [20:05] <AryehGregor> Maybe it's the if (/AppleWebKit/.test(navigator.userAgent)) { for (i = 0; i < 1000000000; i++); } part that does it.
  550. # [20:06] <othermaciej> :-p
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  559. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> That was exciting.
  560. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> This is why I use Linux!
  561. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> First my mouse cursor disappeared.
  562. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> It seems like it might be a video driver issue, according to posts I read on the forums, and no one had any fixes, but rebooting was a workaround.
  563. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> So then I tried restarting X.
  564. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> This just shut my monitors off.
  565. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> Then I tried rebooting.
  566. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> To an old kernel.
  567. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> But it seems my 10.04 userspace doesn't like the 9.10 kernel, because it gave me this cool effect of only using the top half of one of my monitors, with the bottom half being noise, and attempts to change the resolution resulting in even crazier effects.
  568. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> So I rebooted again.
  569. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> And now it works, for now.
  570. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> <3 Ubuntu.
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  578. # [21:03] <appden> hello
  579. # [21:04] <appden> the svn url on http://syntax.whattf.org/ is dead wrong
  580. # [21:04] <appden> I somehow found it and mirrored the repo to github, if anyone prefers seeing it there
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  582. # [21:04] <appden> http://github.com/appden/html5-syntax
  583. # [21:04] <annevk> hsivonen, ^^
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  588. # [21:19] <jgraham> """A "fika" is a Swedish word for an ambiguous meeting that may or may not be a date""" huh
  589. # [21:20] <jgraham> Either I misunderstood or we have office dates once a week
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  591. # [21:21] <jgraham> (actually that definition is wrong, but I don't want to disappoint the people who think that the only topic in this channel is Swedish translation)
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  594. # [21:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: Also, your missing context.
  595. # [21:26] <gsnedders> (That quote is from <http://kommissariecuriosa.blogspot.com/2005/11/swedish-mating-and-dating.html>)
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  597. # [21:27] <gsnedders> s/your/you're/
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  603. # [21:29] <annevk> lol
  604. # [21:29] <gsnedders> (That post is absolutely brilliant. Do read it.)
  605. # [21:29] <annevk> just did
  606. # [21:30] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yeah, the blog does go on to say that the definition is wrong
  607. # [21:30] <gsnedders> It's proof the plan of some to get me engaged before I leave Opera is doomed to fail. There's simply not enough time.
  608. # [21:30] <jgraham> gsnedders: Read in the comments. It doesn't have to be like that
  609. # [21:31] <jgraham> Also I know some pretty hardcore Christians so if you got them drunk enough to get them knocked up then you might get a shotgun wedding
  610. # [21:31] * gsnedders didn't read many comments earlier, as he was trying to work...
  611. # [21:32] <jgraham> Although I don't really endorse that as a plan
  612. # [21:32] <erlehmann> gsnedders, this is an absurdist play, right ?
  613. # [21:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well, it's closer to what I described as the normal Scottish dating pattern earlier
  614. # [21:32] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Absurdity? That's Sweden.
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  616. # [21:33] <erlehmann> and thus i propose: NO MORE SWEDEN
  617. # [21:33] <erlehmann> to make the world mundane again !
  618. # [21:33] <gsnedders> jgraham: That is, get stupendiously drunk, sleep together, then the man calls the girl out for a date, and that's about it.
  619. # [21:33] <annevk> the world needs Sweden
  620. # [21:34] <annevk> keeps the IETF at bay :p
  621. # [21:35] <erlehmann> also, "dates" are weird. i once went out with an american gal and she had difficulties to comprehend the "split the bill" part. also, she smoked. but on the plus side, she moved whenever the wind was blowing the smoke in my direction, huh ?
  622. # [21:35] <gsnedders> "Come here I think you're beautiful/I think you're beautiful, beautiful/Some kind of stranger come inside"
  623. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> I had to give up on a girl when I learned she was a smoker. :/
  624. # [21:36] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Americans are weird.
  625. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> I still maintain that Orthodox Jews have it best. Someone sets you up, and both parties are very clear that they're only looking for marriage. Thus two people will rarely have to date for more than a few weeks. None of this angst about what the exact status is.
  626. # [21:36] <erlehmann> annevk, charles stross should write a science fiction story where the WHATWG takes over government business after a major disaster, due to some laws refering (!) to HTML standards :P
  627. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> But yeah, american dates are either (1) paid for by the guy, if he asked the girl out, or (2) *maybe* split, if the girl asked the guy out.
  628. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> I laugh at all the people who spend their teenage years agonizing over their girlfriend/boyfriend.
  629. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> Something like a movie is easier to split, but food usually isn't.
  630. # [21:37] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, i once kissed a friend just right after she was having a cigarette, just to see how it is. awful, as expected — but the smell went away after we both drank more wine ;)
  631. # [21:37] <jgraham> AryehGregor: That sounds like many other systems
  632. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> Also Christmas. It sounds like it would be horrible to have to think of presents to give to everyone you know.
  633. # [21:37] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Well, I was apparently meant to go to aerobics this evening to meet some girl. I said no. :P
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  635. # [21:37] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, I laugh at all people. period.
  636. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: That's why they invented gift cards
  637. # [21:37] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I hardly give presents to anyone
  638. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> erlehmann, excellent policy.
  639. # [21:38] <jgraham> I don't think I am particularly mean
  640. # [21:38] * AryehGregor probably also would hardly give presents to everyone, but doesn't even have to worry about that.
  641. # [21:38] * gsnedders certainly didn't give jgraham for Christmas
  642. # [21:38] <gsnedders> *anything for Christmas
  643. # [21:38] <TabAtkins> Also: I only give gifts to my wife, brothers, parents, and then one extra person in the family, chosen at thanksgiving (we all draw names from a hat)
  644. # [21:38] <jgraham> gsnedders: I'm really not yours to give away
  645. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Of course, celebrating a totally different set of holidays from everyone else around you is a real pain. Part of why I'm thinking of moving to Israel.
  646. # [21:38] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, food is easy to split. here in berlin, you get asked that when you pay and you remotely look like you belong to each other and get separate bills if you want.
  647. # [21:39] <mbrubeck> erlehmann: Does the new Ministry of Standards decide that all laws should be compatible with how people already behave?
  648. # [21:39] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, I also do not often give presents. Way to go.
  649. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> Yeah, you usually have to be *very* explicit about bill-splitting in america. Pretty annoying.
  650. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> Yeah, food is easy to split. I've done it lots of times when going to a restaurant with random friends.
  651. # [21:39] <jgraham> Split bills are rather common here
  652. # [21:39] <jgraham> Much more so than in the UK
  653. # [21:39] <jgraham> Typically everyone goes up to the counter and pays
  654. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> Going out with friends, sure, you just ask for a split bill when you order. Going out on a date? That's harder.
  655. # [21:40] <jgraham> Although you have to remember what you ordered
  656. # [21:40] <gsnedders> You don't even need to look together in the UK to get a single bill.
  657. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> mbrubeck, it would be awesome if laws reflected reality, instead of most of them being totally unenforced.
  658. # [21:40] <jgraham> Which is hard when you couldn't pronounce it the first time
  659. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, oh, so you mean socially and not technically.
  660. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yes.
  661. # [21:40] <gsnedders> Though maybe going out as two people with a girl of similar age doesn't help getting split bills.
  662. # [21:40] <gsnedders> So maybe my sample is a bit out.
  663. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> jgraham, just order the same thing every time, and only go to three different restaurants. Simple.
  664. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> Also: Ministan. Goes great with the other ministries.
  665. # [21:41] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Borning. And probably expensive
  666. # [21:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: What restauarants are cheap here?
  667. # [21:41] <gsnedders> *restaurants
  668. # [21:41] <jgraham> (because if you could only have three dishes it would have to be the nice ones)
  669. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> I only go to one restaurant per date. Personal policy.
  670. # [21:41] <jgraham> gsnedders: Umm...
  671. # [21:41] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Lame
  672. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> jgraham, are you assuming that I have any culinary sensibilities whatsoever?
  673. # [21:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: My point exactly. It's going to be expensive anywhere, whatever you get.
  674. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, surely you mean "went", since you've been married for several years.
  675. # [21:42] <jgraham> TabAtkins: You should make a point of going somewhere different for dessert and or coffee / etc.
  676. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> I go on dates with my wife!
  677. # [21:42] <mbrubeck> "War is peace. Freedom is slavery. text/html is XHTML."
  678. # [21:42] <erlehmann> mbrubeck, not exactly. king-president hickson will refuse to enact laws when apple town and mozillaville disagree on what standard holo TVs should be based on.
  679. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Those usually aren't called dates, they're called "nights out" or something.
  680. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Nah, I'd rather just go to some place with good desserts to start with.
  681. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I call them dates.
  682. # [21:42] * AryehGregor just gets pizza if he's at a pizza place, and General Tso's chicken at a Chinese place, and asks whoever he's with what to get if he's anywhere else
  683. # [21:42] <jgraham> mbrubeck: Surely you mean "ar is peace. Freedom is slavery. Going out with your wife is a date"
  684. # [21:43] * AryehGregor also never goes to restaurants.
  685. # [21:43] * gsnedders is incapable of making a decision
  686. # [21:43] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, ministan sounds like a minor soviet ex-republic :D
  687. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: But *what kind* of pizza?
  688. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Normal's fine.
  689. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Maybe extra cheese.
  690. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> What if they don't have normal?
  691. # [21:43] <gsnedders> (it doesn't matter what type of decision, I'm just incapable of making decisions.)
  692. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> What pizza place doesn't have normal pizza?
  693. # [21:43] <gsnedders> (I might get mocked by some for this.)
  694. # [21:43] * gsnedders glares at jgraham
  695. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> I don't think BJ's has a plain pepperoni.
  696. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> I suppose you can order a cheese, but you have to ask for it.
  697. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> I said plain, not pepperoni.
  698. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> What is "plain"?
  699. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Like, just tomato sauce and cheese.
  700. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> And, you know, some crust.
  701. # [21:44] <erlehmann> A cheese BJ !
  702. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Pepperoni pizza isn't kosher, it mixes milk with meat.
  703. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> Oh, right.
  704. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Anyway, I subsist on two specific types of cereal that I buy in enormous quantities, plus sometimes one particular brand of frozen pizza, plus sometimes one particular brand of packaged macaroni and cheese, plus ~2L of caffeine-free Diet Pepsi per day, plus whatever my mother makes.
  705. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> This is enough variety for me.
  706. # [21:45] <TabAtkins> Are the two cereals Count Chocula and Cap'n Crunch?
  707. # [21:45] <TabAtkins> Because if not, your choices are wrong.
  708. # [21:45] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, are those food regulations only for orthodox people or do normal religious people also obey them ?
  709. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> No, they're Quaker Oatmeal Squares (eaten without milk as a snack) and Honey Nut Cheerios (with milk as breakfast). Currently. I switch to different cereals sometimes, like once every few months.
  710. # [21:45] <TabAtkins> I require all of my cereals to have the initials "CC".
  711. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> So I guess Cookie Crisp counts.
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  713. # [21:46] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, Create a CC licensed CC recipe.
  714. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> Aw yiss.
  715. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> erlehmann, a baseline definition of "religious Orthodox Jew" is "observes the Sabbath and eats only kosher food". Most Jews aren't religious, though. Reform and secular Jews don't believe in keeping kosher, Conservative Jews theoretically do but few of them actually do in practice.
  716. # [21:47] <erlehmann> TEH MOAR YOU KNOW
  717. # [21:47] <erlehmann> thank, AryehGregor
  718. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> Of course, there are about fourteen zillion additional laws to obey beyond the Sabbath and kosher, but those two are among the most visible, burdensome, and socially important, so they're a pretty good indicator of whether you keep most of the rest.
  719. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, I eat those sugary cereals sometimes, but they get tiresome when I eat the same thing for three months in a row.
  720. # [21:49] <TabAtkins> I could eat count chocula every single day and be happy with it.
  721. # [21:49] <TabAtkins> But I don't eat cereal anymore - for several years breakfast was always cheese+crackers+juice, and now I eat eggs most mornings.
  722. # [21:50] <Dashiva> Do jews that don't observe the sabbath and eat only kosher usually ignore it completely, or make up some kind of light/diet version?
  723. # [21:50] * TabAtkins believes count chocula to be the perfect food.
  724. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> Eggs sound like they have to be prepared.
  725. # [21:50] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yeah, but the chefs at google prepare them for me.
  726. # [21:52] * jgraham recently discovered that Dorset Cereals are now avaliable in Sweden
  727. # [21:52] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, a lot of totally irreligious Jews still practice some observance on some of the more interesting holidays. And they usually practice circumcision, etc.
  728. # [21:52] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, that sounds like an excellent arrangement.
  729. # [21:52] <jgraham> That was one of the happiest culinary moments of my time here
  730. # [21:52] * AryehGregor bets that Google's New York office has decent kosher food, given the number of Jews here.
  731. # [21:53] <jgraham> (could be exaggeration)
  732. # [21:53] <jgraham> http://www.dorsetcereals.co.uk/
  733. # [21:55] <jgraham> http://www.dorsetcereals.co.uk/mueslis/super-cranberry-cherry-almond/ in aprticular are the awesomest of all cerals
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The end :)