/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-05-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 27 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  17. # [00:47] <sid__> hi i was working with workers in html5 i tried copying one of the ticker example and try to get it wrking from the local browser.. I got this error SECURITY_ERR: DOM Exception 18
  18. # [00:47] <sid__> The demo online works fine though...
  19. # [00:48] <sid__> http://dev.w3.org/html5/workers/
  20. # [00:48] <sid__> this is the reference...
  21. # [00:48] <sid__> for the example
  22. # [00:48] <sid__> coul any one tell me what the error is
  23. # [00:49] <mbrubeck> sid__: Is your worker hosted at the same origin (protocol+hostname+port) as the page that is running it?
  24. # [00:50] <sid__> yeah the HTML source and the "worker.js" files are all on my local folder...
  25. # [00:51] <mbrubeck> I'm not sure local files (file:///...) are allowed to run workers...
  26. # [00:51] <sid__> hmm
  27. # [00:51] <sid__> so ill try putting em into apache.. one sec
  28. # [00:53] <ap> sid__: loading from local file should work in Safari
  29. # [00:56] <sid__> well it is working.... i need the search.cgi uri in that resouce... but it works in principle...
  30. # [00:57] <sid__> thanks
  31. # [00:58] <sid__> i was actually working with the workers API for Databases... i was working on a Scrapbook plugin that would use webstorage as the backing store...
  32. # [00:58] <sid__> Now the problem was that
  33. # [00:59] <sid__> with the asynchronus API thigs got hard very fast
  34. # [00:59] <sid__> as in all i could do was thru call backs
  35. # [01:00] <sid__> and when i had to do things like insert/update/initialize DB etc operations i decided to sitch to workers
  36. # [01:00] <sid__> switch*
  37. # [01:00] <sid__> i need now a good lesson to design a simple event based framework ...
  38. # [01:01] <sid__> any good tutorials(JS based) out there on this?
  39. # [01:01] * Quits: masterov (~masterov@nat/google/x-imkclzaegwhswtja) (Quit: masterov)
  40. # [01:02] <mbrubeck> I'd look at the http://nodejs.org/ API for inspiration
  41. # [01:03] <micheil> yeah, I would too.
  42. # [01:03] * Joins: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
  43. # [01:03] <micheil> (actually, I have no idea what you're talking about, but I highly recommend looking at node.js)
  44. # [01:04] * Quits: Dashiva (Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  45. # [01:04] <sid__> Hmm thanks
  46. # [01:04] <MikeSmith> can somebody please try selecting and copying-and-pasting text from this page: http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-market-capitalization-microsoft-vs-apple-2010-5
  47. # [01:04] <MikeSmith> ...and tell me what you get
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  52. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> Any text in particular?
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  55. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> Oh, you mean the "Read more: ..." thing at the end of the copypaste?
  56. # [01:06] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: yeah
  57. # [01:06] <hober> I get the text I copied, and just the text I copied
  58. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> Interesting.
  59. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> I'm using Chrome 5
  60. # [01:07] <MikeSmith> I was trying with Safari
  61. # [01:07] <hober> Chrome 6.0.401.1 dev
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  63. # [01:07] <MikeSmith> it seemed to not let me copy at all all, it just gives me that "Read more:" bit with the URL
  64. # [01:08] <hober> updating...
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  67. # [01:09] <mbrubeck> I get "Read more:..." when I copy more than X words.
  68. # [01:10] <mbrubeck> around 8 words
  69. # [01:10] <MikeSmith> me finds "{if(b.isPointInRange(c,0)&&!isElementWithoutText.test(a.tagName))return c}else if(e==
  70. # [01:10] <MikeSmith> 1)i" etc.
  71. # [01:10] <MikeSmith> http://tcr.tynt.com/javascripts/Tracer.js
  72. # [01:11] * MikeSmith notices his paste from that JS script got truncated, but that's the culprit, anyway
  73. # [01:11] <MikeSmith> anyway, that's just obnoxious
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  75. # [01:12] <mbrubeck> "aa(b) > 7" --> at least 8 words
  76. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> yeah, seems so
  77. # [01:12] <mbrubeck> thanks, http://jsbeautifier.org/
  78. # [01:13] <mbrubeck> I'd love to have a source code beautifier integrated with Firebug
  79. # [01:13] <MikeSmith> http://www.tynt.com/
  80. # [01:13] <MikeSmith> "The copy/paste company"
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  85. # [01:28] <MikeSmith> anybody know if is there are Java collection class that has a method for just popping the last item off the collection?
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  88. # [01:30] <MikeSmith> hmm, Stack?
  89. # [01:30] <Dashiva> Stack is one of those do-not-use classes
  90. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> shit.. I was bout to say, me wonders if Stack is deprecated.. most of the obviously useful and simple Java classes are deprecated and replaced by something more complex and opaque
  91. # [01:31] <Dashiva> Do you have to support Java <6?
  92. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: so what do the Java gods mandate that I use instead?
  93. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: no, I think Java 6-only is OK
  94. # [01:32] <Dashiva> ArrayDeque is great if not
  95. # [01:32] * MikeSmith checks ArrayDeque doc
  96. # [01:33] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: but, really, is the whole Java-let's-deprecate-everything phenomenon some kind of absurdist joke or something?
  97. # [01:33] <Dashiva> It's not deprecation for no reason
  98. # [01:33] <mbrubeck> It's because the old container classes were pre-generics
  99. # [01:33] <MikeSmith> oh
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  101. # [01:33] <Dashiva> Also, lots of them were sychronized
  102. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> I see
  103. # [01:34] <Dashiva> Spelled correctly, anyhow
  104. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> I guess it's just that every time I find something that intuitively maps to my use cases and programming experiences, I find that's in deprecated
  105. # [01:35] <Dashiva> The good names were taken first, of course :)
  106. # [01:35] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  108. # [01:36] <Dashiva> That's not to say you can't use the old classes, they still work. But they're deprecated because the alternatives are generally better.
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  111. # [01:45] <sid__> btw i dont suppose any one has tried working with workers API in chrome extensions....?
  112. # [01:45] <sid__> they dont seem to work in the JS environment...
  113. # [01:45] <sid__> set up for extensions
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  144. # [02:50] <Hixie> if there are any forum admins around (zcorpan?), looks like DaveC426913 is sending spam PMs to people on the forum
  145. # [02:52] <TabAtkins> Anyone with more than 2 digits at the end of their name (4 if it looks like a year in the last century) is a spam bot automatically.
  146. # [02:58] <KaOSoFt> I already reported them. I guess that was the reason for the net split.
  147. # [02:58] <KaOSoFt> Perhaps restarted a server?
  148. # [02:58] <KaOSoFt> Anyways, time to go home.
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  179. # [05:25] <boblet> MikeSmith: are you in charge of the sites listed in planet html5?
  180. # [05:25] <boblet> this might be a good feed to add http://doctype.com/tags/html5
  181. # [05:26] <MikeSmith> boblet: yeah, I am
  182. # [05:26] * MikeSmith looks at site now
  183. # [05:26] <boblet> not quite as active as SO, but similar in a lower level kinda way
  184. # [05:26] <boblet> well, less technical
  185. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> can you vouch for these guys?
  186. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> Doctype was built by the people who run Litmus - David Smalley, Paul Farnell and Matthew Brindley.
  187. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> (quote from about page)
  188. # [05:27] <boblet> btw thanks for adding me yo
  189. # [05:27] <boblet> litmus is a compare-in-different-browsers app for web devs
  190. # [05:28] <boblet> don’t know them personally but they haven’t done anything dodgy so far
  191. # [05:28] <boblet> they made me a site admin fwiw (not much :)
  192. # [05:29] * Joins: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@60-242-27-235.static.tpgi.com.au)
  193. # [05:31] <boblet> oh btw I’m not posting much HTML5-relevant stuff to Tumblr now, so you may want to change my link to http://oli.jp/articles.atom
  194. # [05:31] <boblet> most of my content is going to html5doctor.com or books now tho :/
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  197. # [05:33] <MikeSmith> losted my connection
  198. # [05:33] <MikeSmith> [12:25] <MikeSmith> np
  199. # [05:33] <MikeSmith> [12:26] <MikeSmith> I'm kidding about vouching for them
  200. # [05:33] <MikeSmith> [12:26] <MikeSmith> I'll add it now
  201. # [05:33] <MikeSmith> [12:26] <MikeSmith> it looks like a useful resource
  202. # [05:33] <boblet> heh
  203. # [05:33] <MikeSmith> boblet: will change the URL for you feed too
  204. # [05:33] <MikeSmith> dammit
  205. # [05:33] <MikeSmith> this train driver loves to hit his brakes
  206. # [05:33] <MikeSmith> and make everybody stumble
  207. # [05:33] <boblet> woah, that’s a dodgy feeling huh
  208. # [05:34] <boblet> well, it is on JR West
  209. # [05:34] <boblet> :|
  210. # [05:34] <MikeSmith> train drivers should be wired to get an electric shock every time they do that
  211. # [05:34] <MikeSmith> this it Odakyu sen
  212. # [05:34] <MikeSmith> the only thing worse than JR
  213. # [05:34] <boblet> heh
  214. # [05:34] <boblet> as long as they stay on the rails I’m happy
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  216. # [05:35] <MikeSmith> I'd rather they also tried harder to arrive on time
  217. # [05:36] * Quits: Henrik`G (~hb@c83-249-67-192.bredband.comhem.se) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  218. # [05:36] <MikeSmith> Odakyu is the online train line I've seen in Japan that can't manage to get trains to run on time
  219. # [05:36] <MikeSmith> and plus every time it rains, all hell seems to break lose
  220. # [05:37] <boblet> maybe they’re using the British Rail model
  221. # [05:37] <boblet> leaves on the track! oh noes!
  222. # [05:38] <MikeSmith> the other day when it was raining here, they announced "We've had an accident on the ENoshima line, so we will not go all the way to Shonandai (my station), instead we will stop at Sagami Ono".. so, fuck you
  223. # [05:38] <MikeSmith> basically
  224. # [05:38] <MikeSmith> there are no other train lines that connect to Sagami Ono
  225. # [05:38] <MikeSmith> and they gave no info about, if you need to get further down to Fujisawa or whatever, this is what you should to
  226. # [05:38] <MikeSmith> *do
  227. # [05:39] <boblet> that’s … helpful
  228. # [05:39] <MikeSmith> instead, it was just "get off the train and don't let the doors hit you in the ass on the way out"
  229. # [05:39] <boblet> (for taxi companies)
  230. # [05:39] <MikeSmith> boblet: OK, doctype.com added
  231. # [05:39] <MikeSmith> willbchange your ULR now
  232. # [05:40] <boblet> MikeSmith: no rush
  233. # [05:40] <boblet> I was actually a bit surprised to see myself there. “I’d just like to thank my family and fans—without them…” ;-)
  234. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> heh
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  237. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> boblet: you have made yourself a member of the cabal, for better or worse
  238. # [05:42] <boblet> feel obligated to write more :/
  239. # [05:42] <boblet> wow, sweet! looking forward to those holographic member ids you told me about
  240. # [05:42] <boblet> the one with hypno-powers
  241. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> now, when people bitch about the "HTML clusterfuck" and the people responsible, you can count yourself among the privileged few they have in mind
  242. # [05:43] <boblet> rock! … umm I think
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  247. # [05:55] <MikeSmith> so boblet
  248. # [05:55] <MikeSmith> if you can indulge me
  249. # [05:55] <MikeSmith> I have something to share
  250. # [05:56] <MikeSmith> I went to the supermarket this morning
  251. # [05:56] <boblet> I’m always down for your indulgences
  252. # [05:56] <MikeSmith> to buy some english muffins
  253. # [05:56] <boblet> mm muffins
  254. # [05:56] <MikeSmith> I got to the store and found that they had two brands of english muffins
  255. # [05:56] <MikeSmith> and they looked a lot the same
  256. # [05:57] <MikeSmith> and were the same price
  257. # [05:57] <MikeSmith> so I'm confronted with a dilemma
  258. # [05:57] <MikeSmith> how do I choose?
  259. # [05:57] <MikeSmith> what process do I use to decide
  260. # [05:57] <boblet> elementary. buy one of each and have a taste-off
  261. # [05:57] <MikeSmith> I considered the options available to me
  262. # [05:57] <boblet> don’t thank me, thank science
  263. # [05:58] <MikeSmith> I could, say, try to get some expert advice from the management
  264. # [05:58] <boblet> heh
  265. # [05:58] <boblet> good luck with that
  266. # [05:58] <MikeSmith> well, I could even do a lifeline call to a english-muffin expert somewhere
  267. # [05:58] <MikeSmith> or I could attempt to do some detailed analysis there myself, at the stor
  268. # [05:58] <MikeSmith> close examination
  269. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> I mean, I could have spent all day there at the store deciding what english muffins to buy
  270. # [05:59] * Joins: kennyluck_ (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3508:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7)
  271. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> and agonizing and hand-wringing over whether I was making the right decision
  272. # [05:59] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  273. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> because, you know, I had to make *some* decision
  274. # [06:00] <MikeSmith> I needed english muffins
  275. # [06:00] <boblet> obviously
  276. # [06:00] <MikeSmith> I had an english-muffing consumer market waiting at home to consume some english muffins
  277. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> and I thought, I have a risk here of making the wrong decision
  278. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> and alienating my english-muffin consumer market at home
  279. # [06:01] <boblet> I stand by my scientific experiment suggestion (which would also ensure seconds for your aforementioned consumer market), but other variables worthy of evaluation are
  280. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> having them tell me, boy, Mikey, you sure really fucked up that english-muffin-buying decision
  281. # [06:02] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@tea04.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  282. # [06:02] * kennyluck_ is now known as kennyluck
  283. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> "what a mess you made of the english-muffin-buying task that you were given responsibility for"
  284. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> etc.
  285. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> anyway, you know the punchline
  286. # [06:03] <boblet> weight, relative springiness, length of ingredients list, relative average length of ingredients in ingredients list (in both cases shorter=better), and due-by date
  287. # [06:03] <boblet> the other option is to just lie and say that’s all they had
  288. # [06:03] <MikeSmith> well, after 10 seconds of agonized though about it, I just grabbed one and took it the counter and paid
  289. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> and I got back in time to ship the code
  290. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> er, I mean I got back in time to have breakfast
  291. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> anyway, it would be a mistake for anybody to read too much into this little story
  292. # [06:05] <MikeSmith> I just felt like sharing
  293. # [06:05] <boblet> damn you and your finely crafted metaphors
  294. # [06:05] <MikeSmith> "get a decision made in time to actually eat breakfast"
  295. # [06:06] <boblet> don’t forget that it’s entirely possible you would still have got into trouble for choosing the wrong muffin, for no apparent reasons (consumer markets can be unforgiving in the morning)
  296. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> yeah, the damned-if-you-do-or-damned-if-you-don'tness of life
  297. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> Huck Finn wrote about that
  298. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> well, Mark Twain did
  299. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> I think Huck's conclusion was, I guess I'll just be damned.
  300. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> but he got Jim out to safety
  301. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> and he had a pretty good time along the way doing it
  302. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> and he learned a lot
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  304. # [06:10] <boblet> “just be damned” that’d make a good quote for the IRC logs header
  305. # [06:10] <MikeSmith> Huck shipped the code
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  310. # [06:18] <MikeSmith> boblet: oli.jp feed added
  311. # [06:19] <boblet> heh, and cheers
  312. # [06:19] <boblet> will post wisely
  313. # [06:25] <MikeSmith> no need to do it wisely
  314. # [06:26] <MikeSmith> abuse the Force
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  317. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> boblet: let's try to be more like this guy: http://twitpic.com/1rfowk
  318. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> or perhaps better yet: http://twitpic.com/1rfp6m
  319. # [06:55] <boblet> lol
  320. # [06:56] <boblet> MikeSmith: http://www.collegehumor.com/article:1794889
  321. # [07:07] * Quits: michaeln (~michaeln@nat/google/x-gqdutcufxhqepjhj) (Quit: Leaving.)
  322. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> so there's a patch copied into a code.google.com bug report that I would like to e-mail to hsivonen
  323. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> but I notice that the code.google.com UI has wrapped and borked it
  324. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/jing-trang/issues/detail?id=35
  325. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> anybody know if there's some way I can get a raw/unwrapped version of the comment?
  326. # [07:17] * MikeSmith finds that the patchutils distro has a Unwrapdiff command
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  340. # [08:08] <hsivonen> OK. I guess I should email fantasai about URLs on syntax.whattf.org
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  344. # [08:27] <Peter`> MikeSmith: The blue background-colour is gone now, so yes, text is readable
  345. # [08:27] <Peter`> Thank you!
  346. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> cheers
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  375. # [09:46] * MikeSmith sends some patches to hsivonen for review
  376. # [09:48] <annevk> http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AaYxrITemjbxZGNmZzc5cHpfM2Ryajc5Zmhx&hl=en scroll to the end -- DOCTYPE rejoicing
  377. # [09:48] <annevk> via Peter-
  378. # [09:49] <annevk> or maybe Peter` if they're different :)
  379. # [09:49] * Quits: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-205.cpe.unwired.net.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  380. # [09:49] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@83.218.67.122)
  381. # [09:50] <Peter`> Nah, two computers
  382. # [09:50] * Joins: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-205.cpe.unwired.net.au)
  383. # [09:52] <slartsa> whoa, AI?
  384. # [09:54] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@94-116-57-163.dynamic.thecloud.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  385. # [09:55] <hsivonen> annevk: tag-format="semantics/1.0" is awesome
  386. # [09:59] * Joins: ciaran_l1e (leecn@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie)
  387. # [10:00] <Rich_Clark> can anyone tell me why there isn't a type="year" in the spec?
  388. # [10:01] <annevk> use case?
  389. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> hey, it's Rich_Clark!!
  390. # [10:02] * Quits: ciaran_lee (leecn@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  391. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> HTML5 Doctors are taking over
  392. # [10:03] <Rich_Clark> hey Mike
  393. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> hey man
  394. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> for the record, I don't have clue about the rational for not having type=year
  395. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> it seems to me like it'd be useful
  396. # [10:03] <Rich_Clark> anne, I don't have one, someone just asked me the other day and I didn't know so thought I'd see if anyone did
  397. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> but as always, whatta I know..
  398. # [10:04] <annevk> well, the answer is lack of a use case afaik
  399. # [10:04] * Joins: ciaran_lee (leecn@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie)
  400. # [10:04] <annevk> MikeSmith, more than most people, I'd say
  401. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> annevk: great to see http://www.w3.org/TR/speech-grammar/grammar.dtd
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  403. # [10:04] <Rich_Clark> right ok, cheers guys
  404. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> keeping hope alive for DTDs
  405. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> talk about lack of clue
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  407. # [10:05] <hsivonen> Rich_Clark: as far as I am aware, the use cases are addressed by type=number min=something step=1
  408. # [10:05] <annevk> even has <meta>, including the broken http-equiv
  409. # [10:05] <annevk> awesome
  410. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> we really need to have an executive ban on DTDs across working groups
  411. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> seriously
  412. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> the madness must end
  413. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> otherwise these jackasses will still be churning out DTDs 50 years from now
  414. # [10:06] <Rich_Clark> hsivonen: yes that's what I advised the guy to use in the end. Cheers
  415. # [10:06] <hsivonen> is special (NULL | VOID | GARBAGE) #IMPLIED
  416. # [10:06] <hsivonen> legal in DTDs?
  417. # [10:06] * Quits: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-205.cpe.unwired.net.au) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  418. # [10:06] <annevk> another ban: if you intend your spec to end up the web browser vendors must be involved; if they're not and you continue ahead anyway you lose the right to complain later on
  419. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> I'm trying hard to un-learn anything I ever knew about DTDs
  420. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> annevk: amen
  421. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> again, seriously
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  424. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> groups of mad scientists off quietly spending years in their remote labs developing Frankenstein monsters
  425. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> then unleashing them on the world and asking that they be welcomed with open arms
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  439. # [11:06] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i think so, although the html4 dtd usually sets a default value instead of #IMPLIED for enumerated attributes that aren't booleans
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  441. # [11:07] <zcorpan_> method (GET|POST) GET
  442. # [11:07] <zcorpan_> checked (checked) #IMPLIED
  443. # [11:10] * daedb_ is now known as daedb
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  451. # [11:43] <jgraham> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Tantek-Mozilla-projects - the bit about form controls is interesting
  452. # [11:51] <Lachy> "Take a look at what Opera has done for example (in terms of dangers to avoid)." - haha
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  454. # [12:02] <zcorpan_>
  455. # [12:02] <zcorpan_> http://twitter.com/bobdvb/statuses/14818754527
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  458. # [12:02] <Mitsurugi> hi all
  459. # [12:04] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  460. # [12:07] <jgraham> hi
  461. # [12:12] <jgraham> Does anyone know if it is defined somewhere that new InterfaceObject() and InterfaceObject() are equivalent? Or does it have to be specified on a case-by-case basis?
  462. # [12:17] <jgraham> (I would expect WebIDL 4.4.1 to define this, but it doesn't)
  463. # [12:17] <jgraham> (unless I am missing something)
  464. # [12:20] * zcorpan_ notes 15.3.1.1 in es5
  465. # [12:21] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: That's not relevant
  466. # [12:21] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: That's only relevant for the Function object
  467. # [12:23] <gsnedders> As in what is bound to "Function" in the global scope be default
  468. # [12:24] * jgraham wonders if any work on WebIDL is actually happening
  469. # [12:34] <zcorpan_> so for xhr it seems firefox and opera return an object while safari and chrome throw TypeError
  470. # [12:35] <jgraham> TypeError is what I would expect given the spec
  471. # [12:35] <jgraham> But I don't really trust the spec :)
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  473. # [12:36] <zcorpan_> although typeof XMLHttpRequest == 'function'
  474. # [12:36] <gsnedders> That's expected
  475. # [12:36] <gsnedders> It's just the difference between [[call]] and [[construct]], so even if it only implements [[construct]] I'd expect that to be true
  476. # [12:37] <zcorpan_> ok
  477. # [12:37] <annevk> zcorpan_, I don't get that twitter message
  478. # [12:38] <zcorpan_> annevk: then we're two
  479. # [12:38] <annevk> though I've heard the sentiment about not bundling codecs before and "letting the market decide" but I don't really buy that either
  480. # [12:38] <jgraham> It is kindof supposed to be an invariant of the language that typeof x === "function" <=> x implements [[call]]
  481. # [12:39] <jgraham> Although regexp objects break that (in some implementations?)
  482. # [12:39] <annevk> I think everything with [Constructor] should not have [[call]]
  483. # [12:39] <jgraham> annevk: That would require a change to ECMAScript
  484. # [12:39] <annevk> e.g. x = Image() rather than x = new Image() is wrong imo
  485. # [12:40] <jgraham> Oh I see
  486. # [12:40] <jgraham> Well all the builtins already work like that
  487. # [12:40] <annevk> with the same semantics?
  488. # [12:40] <jgraham> Yeah
  489. # [12:40] <annevk> I thought there was some difference
  490. # [12:41] <annevk> maybe I should decide not to care and let someone else figure it out
  491. # [12:41] <jgraham> Actually taht's not quite true
  492. # [12:41] <jgraham> it is true for Array
  493. # [12:41] <jgraham> But not for String
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  495. # [12:42] <jgraham> String(a) cocerces a to a string primitive, new String(a) coerces a to a string primitive and wraps that primitive in a string object
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  497. # [12:43] <jgraham> (the language bug here is that String objects exist)
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  499. # [12:43] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: ah. shows how little I remember about DTDs. I didn't remember that enumerated tokens don't need to be quoted
  500. # [12:44] <jgraham> Date is also weird
  501. # [12:44] <jgraham> Date() returns a string new Date() returns a Date object
  502. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> has anybody here reviewed and/or commented on http://www.w3.org/2006/WSC/drafts/rec/rewrite.html
  503. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> Web Security Context: User Interface Guidelines
  504. # [12:47] <jgraham> So basically ES follows [[Call]] === [[Construct]] except for String, Number, Boolean (none of which should exist), Date (which is a mess) and RegExp in the case where the first argument is a preexisting regexp object
  505. # [12:48] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Did they have any browser vendors involved in writing the document?
  506. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> yeah, some
  507. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> Ian Fette was somewhat involved in that WG at times
  508. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> don't know about recently
  509. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> I was in the group long ago too
  510. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> when I was working at Opera
  511. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> some Mozilla security folks too
  512. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you got other document.write tests? you saw abarth discussion over on #webkit?
  513. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> or other "crazy parsing" tests
  514. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> other than html5lib ones
  515. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: btw, I guess I need to try finishing the v.nu checker code I was writing for script element text-content checking
  516. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> so I might be bugging you for test cases
  517. # [12:55] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: ok
  518. # [12:55] <MikeSmith> I really hate that part of the spec
  519. # [12:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: just Hixie's tests and sicking's tests in mochitest on m-c
  520. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ah, OK
  521. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> I figured you guys might have written some new tests after the document.write-related evangelism bugs that came up
  522. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> iirc at least there were some document.write-related ones
  523. # [12:57] <hsivonen> oh, and then http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/detect-html5-parser.html has an evil document.write test that WebKit doesn't pass :-)
  524. # [12:59] <MikeSmith> excellent
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  526. # [12:59] * jgraham wonders what is being discussed in #webkit
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  528. # [13:05] <Peter`> jgraham: they're working on an HTML5 tokenizer
  529. # [13:08] <slartsa> does an iframe go over all z-indexes?
  530. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: is there any reason I should not (or could not) create two separate checker classes for script checking?
  531. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> that is, one for http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/scripting-1.html#restrictions-for-contents-of-script-elements
  532. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> and one for http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/scripting-1.html#inline-documentation-for-external-scripts
  533. # [13:13] <slartsa> oh, wrong channel
  534. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: I think I may have already finished my attempt at implementing support for http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/scripting-1.html#inline-documentation-for-external-scripts
  535. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> for the script/@src case
  536. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> that part of the checking
  537. # [13:14] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: cool
  538. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> deployed on http://www.w3.org/html/check
  539. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> for testing
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  542. # [13:27] <zcorpan_> should we make buffered.start() and end() work without an argument?
  543. # [13:27] <zcorpan_> defaulting to 0 for start and buffered.length-1 for end?
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  559. # [14:30] <foolip> zcorpan_: sounds a bit odd, did anyone ask for that?
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  562. # [14:34] <zcorpan_> foolip: no
  563. # [14:34] <zcorpan_> foolip: i thought it would be a convenience shortcut
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  565. # [14:35] <zcorpan_> i think webkit acts as if undefined was passed as argument if you don't have any, which will be converted to 0
  566. # [14:36] <zcorpan_> whereas opera would throw WRONG_ARGUMENTS_ERR
  567. # [14:37] * zcorpan_ notes that there's <meta name=application-name> that installable web apps could use
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  573. # [14:47] <Lachy> zcorpan_, yes, I mentioned application-name in my reply on whatwg earlier.
  574. # [14:49] <foolip> zcorpan_: is WebKit or Opera wrong?
  575. # [14:51] <zcorpan_> foolip: behavior is undefined (in webidl)
  576. # [14:52] <zcorpan_> foolip: webkit has the ecmascript-like behavior
  577. # [14:53] <zcorpan_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/1171.html
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  579. # [14:54] <foolip> undefined?
  580. # [14:54] <foolip> oh my
  581. # [14:59] <jgraham> foolip: No other behaviour really makes sense in ECMAScript
  582. # [14:59] <jgraham> foo() should be exactly like foo(undefined) if foo takes a single formal argument
  583. # [15:00] <jgraham> Oh, wait
  584. # [15:00] <jgraham> You are complaining about the behaviour being undefined
  585. # [15:00] <jgraham> Yeah, that sucks
  586. # [15:05] <boblet> Rich_Clark: hey hey!
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  589. # [15:09] <boblet> annevk: re: form input for type=year", what about adding the year of a wine on corkd.com?
  590. # [15:10] <boblet> annevk: alternatively, is there a way to get year-only input validated/via an appropriate browser widget?
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  592. # [15:13] <Rich_Clark> boblet: hey mate
  593. # [15:13] <boblet> good to see you’ve answered MikeSmith’s siren call
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  595. # [15:14] <boblet> (he’s luring us all onto the rocks of the cabal y’know)
  596. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> walk towards the light
  597. # [15:14] <boblet> I’m pretty sure Gollum said the opposite
  598. # [15:15] <boblet> I must be in the wrong movie
  599. # [15:15] <jgraham> I read that as "rocks of the canal" and wondered what kind of braindead architects would design a shipping channel with obvious hazartds to navigation
  600. # [15:15] <boblet> jgraham: now there’s a loaded metaphor
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  611. # [15:58] <erlehmann> can anyone tell me whats so wrong with the audio element used in here that chrome does not play it ? http://blog.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/podcast-podcasts-feat-sikk
  612. # [15:58] <erlehmann> maybe i am using it wrong …
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  615. # [16:12] <erlehmann> seems to be this http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=33437
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  617. # [16:17] <Lachy> erlehmann, that's not working in Opera either. I don't know why
  618. # [16:18] <Lachy> hmm, it works when I load it locally
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  620. # [16:22] <erlehmann> but Content-Type is: audio/ogg … Lachy, does it have to be more specific ?
  621. # [16:24] <Lachy> no, that should be fine
  622. # [16:24] <Philip`> erlehmann: I've had troubles when audio is sent with Content-Encoding: gzip
  623. # [16:24] <Philip`> (which it looks like yours is)
  624. # [16:25] <Philip`> Should try disabling compression for that file
  625. # [16:25] <Lachy> The content-encoding shouldn't affect playback. If that's the cause, file a bug so we can get that fixed
  626. # [16:26] <erlehmann> Philip`, how do i check for compression ?
  627. # [16:27] <Philip`> erlehmann: "curl --compressed -I http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/audio/podcasts/podcasts-feat-sikk.oga" would do it
  628. # [16:27] <erlehmann> the resource tab in chrome says it spends 6ms to wait for the resource, then cancels after 1ms
  629. # [16:30] <erlehmann> i'll see what wireshark says about google chromes behaviour
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  634. # [16:49] <asmodai> hsivonen: looks like the latest 3.6.4 stabilized the memory issues.
  635. # [16:50] <asmodai> At least, that's the initial idea. Need to test some more, obviously
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  638. # [16:57] <hsivonen> asmodai: ok. have you tried on trunk?
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  644. # [17:02] <asmodai> hsivonen: not yet
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  654. # [17:31] <erlehmann> Philip`, it plays now. Thank you.
  655. # [17:31] <erlehmann> !seen mpilgrim
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  660. # [17:39] <Philip`> erlehmann: Because of the gzip thing?
  661. # [17:39] <erlehmann> Philip`, seems so.
  662. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> so I'm trying to consider the ABNF in http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/scripting-1.html#inline-documentation-for-external-scripts in terms of what the error cases are that v.nu would need to report about
  663. # [17:40] <erlehmann> i'll shoot mpilgrim a mail, his server also serves gzipped ogg content
  664. # [17:40] <AryehGregor> erlehmann, mpilgrim reads logs here.
  665. # [17:40] <MikeSmith> I know one is the same as with the style element
  666. # [17:40] <AryehGregor> You should be able to say something and he'll come in to respond later.
  667. # [17:40] <AryehGregor> At least in my experience.
  668. # [17:40] <Philip`> erlehmann: I expect it'd be good to file bugs on any browsers that fail in that case
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  671. # [17:41] * Philip` is too lazy to file bugs himself but doesn't mind suggesting other people do the work
  672. # [17:41] <erlehmann> Dear log-reading mpligrim, I suggest you add this rule to the .htaccess file at diveintohtml5.org: SetEnvIfNoCase Request_URI \.(?:oga|ogv|ogg)$ no-gzip
  673. # [17:41] <erlehmann> Best regards,
  674. # [17:41] <erlehmann> erlehmann
  675. # [17:41] <erlehmann> :D
  676. # [17:42] <jgraham> You know he saw it if it turns up in yellow
  677. # [17:42] <jgraham> :)
  678. # [17:43] <erlehmann> Lachy, does it work in opera now ?
  679. # [17:43] <MikeSmith> error message: "Content contains the character sequence \u201c<!--\u201d without a later occurrence of the character sequence \u201c-->\u201d."
  680. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> and another is "Content contains the character sequence "<script>" without a later occurrence of the character sequence "</script>"
  681. # [17:44] <erlehmann> hmm, does opera even have a public bug tracker ?
  682. # [17:44] <Philip`> erlehmann: The public can submit bugs
  683. # [17:45] <AryehGregor> Just not actually be informed of any progress on them.
  684. # [17:45] <AryehGregor> Opera now officially has the least open bug tracker of any browser vendor.
  685. # [17:45] <erlehmann> Sounds like lots of dupes.
  686. # [17:45] <AryehGregor> I whine at the Opera employees here about it sometimes, but they haven't managed to get it fixed yet.
  687. # [17:45] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Opinions on the merits of this vary
  688. # [17:46] <AryehGregor> erlehmann, what, as opposed to the public bug trackers where half the bugs filed *aren't* dupes? :)
  689. # [17:46] <erlehmann> anyone with opera can check if http://blog.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/podcast-podcasts-feat-sikk plays now ? i am on throttled UMTS
  690. # [17:46] <AryehGregor> jgraham, yes, yes, I know. I'll continue to make fun of you as long as you're more secretive than Microsoft, though.
  691. # [17:46] <Philip`> Microsoft has a secretive bug tracker
  692. # [17:46] <Philip`> They just have a public one in addition to it
  693. # [17:47] <AryehGregor> So that's less secretive than Opera, then.
  694. # [17:47] <Philip`> but I don't think that makes it clear which is most secretive overall
  695. # [17:47] <AryehGregor> Which has only a secret bug tracker.
  696. # [17:47] <Philip`> Opera has forums and blog posts where people complain about bugs
  697. # [17:47] <AryehGregor> I imagine Apple also has a secret bug tracker for tracking non-WebKit Safari issues, unless that's also public?
  698. # [17:47] <Philip`> which are basically public bug trackers
  699. # [17:48] <Philip`> (just without any good bug tracking features)
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  701. # [17:48] <AryehGregor> No, because you don't get told what the status is.
  702. # [17:48] <jgraham> If we did get a public bug tracker I imagine it would be disconnected from our internal one
  703. # [17:48] <AryehGregor> I mean, by that argument, me complaining to jgraham on IRC is a public bug tracker.
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  705. # [17:48] <jgraham> Apple has rdar
  706. # [17:48] <jgraham> or whatever it is called
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  708. # [17:49] * AryehGregor doesn't touch anything manufactured by Apple with a ten-foot pole, so doesn't have reason to know
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  710. # [17:50] <jgraham> Complaining on IRC is not like filing bugs. On the other hand I personally have looked through the desktop blog comments for useful bug reports
  711. # [17:51] <jgraham> The signal to noise is pretty low though (at least for the bugs that I care about rather than "this UI element is 2px off from where I would ideally like it")
  712. # [17:51] <jgraham> (which might be bugs that someone else cares about)
  713. # [17:51] <AryehGregor> Signal-to-noise drops drastically as you make the bug tracker more accessible. This is inevitable.
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  715. # [17:52] <AryehGregor> But it makes an influential subset of users (the more techy people, who care most about the difference between browsers and understand them best) feel better.
  716. # [17:52] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Sure. I understand all the arguments for public bug trackers
  717. # [17:53] <AryehGregor> And I understand all the ones for private bug trackers.
  718. # [17:54] <AryehGregor> However, I operate on the theory that there is some level of persistent whining that will maximize people's chances of agreeing with you, and informal observational evidence suggests to me that this optimal level is nonzero.
  719. # [17:55] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Well in your case you are whining at the wrong people :)
  720. # [17:55] <AryehGregor> So I mention it occasionally when it comes up, to increase Opera employees' exposure to discontent about the status quo and bias them toward supporting a public bug tracker the next time it comes up internally.
  721. # [17:55] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
  722. # [17:55] <AryehGregor> Worth a try.
  723. # [17:55] <AryehGregor> If all else fails, whining is fun anyway.
  724. # [17:59] * AryehGregor cannot be expected to conduct meaningful analysis on who the best person to whine at is in an organization whose internal structure is opaque, so just goes with the theory that everyone is responsible for everything.
  725. # [18:05] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I guess it is typically the case that the people working the most in public are not the ones arguning for more closedness. So anyone you can find to whine to is unlikely to be the right person to whine to.
  726. # [18:06] <AryehGregor> A good point.
  727. # [18:06] <AryehGregor> I'll be sure to only mock Opera for fun from now on, with no intent of accomplishing any useful goals.
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  756. # [18:45] <bellHead> What is the current state of browser support for <datagrid>s?
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  759. # [18:50] <Dashiva> Wasn't datagrid removed for now?
  760. # [18:51] <bellHead> That would be annoying, it's the capability I'm most looking forward to.
  761. # [18:51] <bellHead> Where would I find out if it had been removed?
  762. # [18:52] <AryehGregor> It has been.
  763. # [18:52] <AryehGregor> Months ago.
  764. # [18:53] <AryehGregor> Not enough implementation, I think, or not enough interest, or too complicated, or some combination of the foregoing.
  765. # [18:53] <AryehGregor> My impression was it would return in some future version, but it was thought best to concentrate on other things for this round.
  766. # [18:53] <AryehGregor> (i.e., the next few years)
  767. # [18:53] <Dashiva> Yeah, too much work remaining on more basic elements
  768. # [18:54] * bellHead curses quietly.
  769. # [18:54] <bellHead> Oh well, thanks for the info.
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  852. # [21:33] <Dashiva> All the important apps are being ported: http://html5zombo.com/
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  869. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> I spent an hour with that playing in the background the other day. It's strangely soothing.
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  901. # [23:53] <nessy> MikeSmith: ping
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  903. # Session Close: Fri May 28 00:00:00 2010

The end :)