/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-05-28 / end

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  28. # [00:37] <nessy> MikeSmith: thanks - now it's the correct link :)
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  30. # [00:38] <MikeSmith> nessy: which link?
  31. # [00:38] <nessy> in the email for the survey :)
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  73. # [02:20] <AryehGregor> Yay, Zack Weinberg is advocating a TeX glue approach to flexbox again.
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  75. # [02:24] <TabAtkins> Real yay or ironic yay?
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  80. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> Real yay.
  81. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> TeX is awesome.
  82. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> It's both powerful and elegant.
  83. # [02:25] <TabAtkins> From the parts he's described, though, glue's pretty simple, and can be done in my proposed draft.
  84. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> I wish CSS were more like TeX. Too bad there are major incompatibilities: fixed vs. fluid layout, and Turing-complete vs. guaranteed performance.
  85. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> Yeah, glue is conceptually simple. But it gives you incredible power, since you can use it everywhere in TeX.
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  87. # [02:27] <TabAtkins> I support using flex anywhere in CSS that doesn't cause problems.
  88. # [02:27] <AryehGregor> To match TeX's typography, you'd want to allow CSS to permit glue values to be given for things like word-spacing, and with separate values for things like before and after dashes, commas, periods, etc.
  89. # [02:27] <AryehGregor> And separate values inside all the different places in an equation you might want to put it.
  90. # [02:27] <TabAtkins> Which generally means "in every layout mode except block layout".
  91. # [02:27] <AryehGregor> TeX is fundamentally macro-based, though, so it will always be more powerful.
  92. # [02:27] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  93. # [02:29] <TabAtkins> If we ever get a sufficiently complex text-layout model, I'd probably see flex in it.
  94. # [02:30] <AryehGregor> It would be cool if CSS were ever as good as TeX for serious typography.
  95. # [02:30] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but performance gives us some obvious limits on what we can do.
  96. # [02:30] <AryehGregor> Some kind of inline style would be essential, though, and that would be really painful without macros.
  97. # [02:31] <AryehGregor> Well, we could compromise on performance for print at least, no?
  98. # [02:31] <AryehGregor> On-screen, typographical details aren't that important. Exact spacing is locked to multiples of a pixel anyway, so it's not as precise.
  99. # [02:31] <TabAtkins> Certainly, but that would mean producing a complex CSS module for the sole purpose of printing. That's less desirable from an input->reward standpoint.
  100. # [02:31] <AryehGregor> Yeah, maybe.
  101. # [02:31] <AryehGregor> Too bad.
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  136. # [04:43] <boblet> AryehGregor, TabAtkins : re: “Exact spacing is locked to multiples of a pixel anyway, so it's not as precise” not once screen dpi goes up. 300dpi displays are a way off yet, but they’ll come. greater rez = less pixel restrictions
  137. # [04:46] <boblet> also I feel that fundamentally CSS should aim to produce typography the equal of anything else. It won’t be long before tech books being made as websites isn’t a rarity, with PDFs for print generated from them
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  147. # [05:13] <roc> Exact spacing is already not locked to multiples of a pixel
  148. # [05:14] <roc> Gecko does subpixel positioning of text on Mac
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  191. # [07:13] <MikeSmithX> anybody know if there are any minutes available from the May 24-25 TC 39 face-to-face meeting at Google?
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  218. # [08:57] <zcorpan_> "The data attribute name must be at least one character long and must be prefixed with 'data-'." - hmm, 'data-' is at least one character long and is prefixed with 'data-'
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  220. # [08:58] <zcorpan_> http://html5doctor.com/html5-custom-data-attributes/
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  291. # [11:42] <annevk> ooh, Super Mario Galaxy 2 is out?
  292. # [11:42] * annevk wonders if it's good
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  299. # [12:17] <jgraham> Oh, cool
  300. # [12:17] <gsnedders> jgraham: Another Mario game for you to not complete!
  301. # [12:17] <jgraham> annevk: It's a mario game made by Nintendo. If it wasn't good it would be... surprising
  302. # [12:17] <jgraham> gsnedders: Indeed :)
  303. # [12:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: However I should point out that you were way more hopeless than me
  304. # [12:18] <annevk> fanboii alert
  305. # [12:18] <jgraham> Moi?
  306. # [12:18] <annevk> toi
  307. # [12:18] <gsnedders> jgraham: On that level, yes. But there are other times when I've been better than you.
  308. # [12:19] <jgraham> gsnedders: Probably. I suck at computer games
  309. # [12:19] <jgraham> But Mario is teh awesome
  310. # [12:20] <annevk> guess i better dust off my wii and connect it again
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  312. # [12:21] <annevk> which reminds me, I still have that other mario game to finish
  313. # [12:21] <annevk> never did anything beyond three levels or so
  314. # [12:21] <jgraham> Which one?
  315. # [12:21] <annevk> the one in the red box
  316. # [12:22] <jgraham> That's the one I was playing with gsnedders
  317. # [12:22] <annevk> super mario wii or some lameass title
  318. # [12:22] <jgraham> New Super Mario Brothers Wii
  319. # [12:22] <jgraham> I think
  320. # [12:22] <annevk> there you go
  321. # [12:22] <hsivonen> is fanboii with two 'i's a wii fanboi?
  322. # [12:22] <annevk> i thought that would make sense
  323. # [12:22] <annevk> with a single it's Apple :)
  324. # [12:23] <jgraham> Yeah, unless one is at the start in which case it is apple
  325. # [12:23] <hsivonen> annevk: I see
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  328. # [12:25] <jgraham> I wonder if that would be fun over the internet... part of the charm of playing with four people in the same room is cursing each other
  329. # [12:30] <annevk> it's better in the same room, but if you've a shared audio channel it's pretty good
  330. # [12:30] <annevk> at least with halo
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  333. # [12:53] <Lachy> gsnedders, jgraham, you and the others in Sweden got me addicted to Super Mario. I even went out and rented it when I was back in Aus and had a Wii available.
  334. # [12:54] <Lachy> sadly, I don't have a Wii in Norway, but I wish I did.
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  339. # [13:13] <gsnedders> Lachy: Well, you didn't get addicted enough to buy a Wii then :)
  340. # [13:16] <Lachy> I'm serioulsy considering getting one :-)
  341. # [13:16] <Lachy> when I can afford it
  342. # [13:16] * workmad3 is now known as wm3|lunch
  343. # [13:16] <hsivonen> I know graphics aren't the point with Wii, but what's the fanboi explanation to the lack of digital video output (HDMI mainly)?
  344. # [13:16] <Lachy> but given that I've just moved and have to buy a whole lot of expensive furniture and applicances, it's not a top priority
  345. # [13:17] <annevk> seems like the perfect opportunity to squeeze in a fun appliance
  346. # [13:17] <Lachy> what outputs does it have? Just component video?
  347. # [13:18] <annevk> yeah, 540p max
  348. # [13:18] <annevk> (iirc)
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  350. # [13:18] <jgraham> hsivonen: No idea
  351. # [13:19] <jgraham> Presumably cost saving or something
  352. # [13:19] <hsivonen> ok
  353. # [13:20] <Lachy> annevk, wikipedia says 480i, 480p and 576i are supported. 540p would be a very strange video size
  354. # [13:21] <jgraham> I have a pure consumer electronics relationship with my Wii. I have no more knowledge of, or interest in, the hardware than I do with my food processor
  355. # [13:21] <annevk> ah, 576i it is then
  356. # [13:24] <Lachy> hsivonen, since the wii came out in 2006, I think that was before HDTV and HDMI was really popular among average consumers.
  357. # [13:24] <Lachy> If they come out with a new HD Wii, then I would expect it to have HDMI
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  359. # [13:25] * Philip` wasn't aware that HDTV was really popular among average consumers today
  360. # [13:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: the devices are. the content no so much.
  361. # [13:26] <Lachy> Philip`, it's getting more popular. Most new TVs being sold today are flat panels, and I belive most of them have HDMI inputs
  362. # [13:26] <hsivonen> I mean, you can't buy a non-HD TV anymore
  363. # [13:27] <Philip`> Apparently over half the people who played Gears of War 2 on the 360 don't have HDTV
  364. # [13:27] <Lachy> are CRT TVs still availalbe anywhere at all?
  365. # [13:27] <Philip`> and I'd expect such people to be more technologically advanced than the average consumer
  366. # [13:27] <Philip`> (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/epics-mark-rein-interview?page=3)
  367. # [13:28] <Lachy> I don't have an HDTV yet myself. I might be getting a second hand one soon though
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  369. # [13:35] <annevk> Gears of War without HDTV would be quite unfortunate
  370. # [13:37] <brucel> process question for you w3c process afficianados: <track> element is in whatwg version of spec, but not latest w3c from 23 May http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/ (that I can find). why is that?
  371. # [13:39] <annevk> accessibility community complained about the proposal being in the specification (specifically the WebSRT format)
  372. # [13:39] <annevk> the chairs also complained
  373. # [13:40] <annevk> Hixie then proceeded to omit the entire proposal from the W3C copy
  374. # [13:41] <annevk> not sure anything has changed, but at least the outcry stopped
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  377. # [13:50] <brucel> thanks annevk
  378. # [13:51] * wm3|lunch is now known as workmad3
  379. # [13:51] <brucel> wouldn't everything be much duller without two parallel-ish specs?
  380. # [13:52] <annevk> we'd be back to XHTML2
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  383. # [13:59] <Philip`> They're not parallel specs, they're matryoshka specs - you can choose to read a page of the author subset of the W3C subset of the WHATWG's HTML5 subset of WA1
  384. # [13:59] <Philip`> which is all a subset of what people call HTML5
  385. # [14:00] <gsnedders> brucel: FWIW, the changes to the outliner are non-trivial, and I'll implement them when I rebase it upon Anolis 2
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  387. # [14:06] <brucel> thanks snedders
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  390. # [14:14] <sid__> Hi I was inserting some text from a HTML Dom nodes innerHTML into websql data store. i wanted to have a rough estimate of the size of the text I am going to insert(In bytes). So i can check against the size of the initilaized data base object... Now how do I know how many bytes each char is roughly occupying in the websql store?
  391. # [14:15] <annevk> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/28/mozilla_and_opera_want_vp8_in_html5/ -- did I miss the email to the list somehow? :)
  392. # [14:16] * Joins: Mitsurugi (~mitsu@unaffiliated/mitsurugi)
  393. # [14:17] <sid__> example doc.firstChild.parentNode.outerHTML.length (doc = document.getElementsByTagName('HTML')) gives me a value of 50815 for a certain webpage... But the size of the doc in chrome debugger resources in 20Kb...
  394. # [14:18] * Quits: Mitsurugi (~mitsu@unaffiliated/mitsurugi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  395. # [14:18] <sid__> Or is there a method in websql to determine how much space is left?
  396. # [14:19] <annevk> 1) ECMAScript is based on 16-bit code units
  397. # [14:20] <annevk> 2) The backend can be in any encoding the browser picks though...
  398. # [14:22] <sid__> annevk: so the browser may show a different size based on the encoding.. Hmm Now if I am putting the outerHTML into a websql data store how could I know how much space is it actually going to occupy ?
  399. # [14:23] <Lachy> sid__, you can't, since it's entirely implementation dependent
  400. # [14:24] <annevk> sid__, you don't; compression could be used, etc.
  401. # [14:25] <sid__> Here is the problem... When we do a call db = openDatabase('documents', '1.0', 'Offline document storage', 5*1024*1024) and then say keep using the webstore.. there seems no way to actually know how much space is a already occupied so web app can increase it some how?
  402. # [14:26] <sid__> as in is there a way to know that?
  403. # [14:26] <sid__> May be some one who worked on websql stuff...
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  405. # [14:26] <sid__> could get some magic going here :)
  406. # [14:29] <sid__> i am actually making a scrapbook extension for google chrome exploiting websql..... So from the space usage perspective I need to deal with this issue...
  407. # [14:29] <annevk> the API is somewhat crappy
  408. # [14:30] <sid__> There is only a QUOTA_ERR error taht tells me... Kinda hard to base your programming around errors...
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  418. # [14:59] <mayly> Philip`, are you the one philip with the web font optimizer page?
  419. # [15:01] <brucel> Question r/e <track>. The spec currently says "The src attribute gives the address of the time track data. The value must be a valid non-empty URL potentially surrounded by spaces. This attribute must be present." Can it not be optional if there is a descendent <source> element, so that different formats can be fed to different browsers (a la <video> itself)?
  420. # [15:02] <annevk> we don't want separate formats for <track>
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  422. # [15:02] <annevk> we don't want them for video either, but it seems for track we can avoid it
  423. # [15:04] <annevk> brucel, <track> is currently like <source> or <img>, it has no end tag and such
  424. # [15:06] <brucel> True, we don't want separate formats for anything. But it doesn't look like there's much agreement on such things as formats? (And what happens when Hixie's children dream up WebSRT+ or something like that?)
  425. # [15:07] <annevk> seems browser vendors have agreement to some extent to do SRT + extras
  426. # [15:07] <annevk> if we ever need a new format later we can figure out a migration path then
  427. # [15:08] <annevk> designing for a theoretical future always goes wrong
  428. # [15:08] <brucel> isn't the obvious migration path t
  429. # [15:08] <Philip`> mayly: Yes
  430. # [15:09] <annevk> brucel, see the topic; there's no obvious when it comes to the web
  431. # [15:09] <mayly> Philip`, do you know the tex-gyre fonts?
  432. # [15:09] <brucel> .. to make it like video itself and allow descendent <source> elements? Speccing that now while there are no implementations would seem to be better
  433. # [15:10] <annevk> if we never end up using it that would be quite a waste
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  435. # [15:10] <Philip`> mayly: No
  436. # [15:10] <mayly> Philip`, these are redistributable and modifyable free fonts which correspond to the standard postscript fonts. they are based on the urw-fonts used by ghostscript, extended with vietnamese and eastern european characters and are available as otf
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  439. # [15:16] <mayly> Philip`, they were initially rubbered up for use in TeX but provide them in multiple formats: http://www.gust.org.pl/projects/e-foundry/tex-gyre/
  440. # [15:16] <annevk> aah, so jgraham is already reading the html5lib moderator emails
  441. # [15:17] * annevk already wondering what was up
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  443. # [15:20] <mayly> Philip`, also with latin-modern http://www.gust.org.pl/projects/e-foundry/latin-modern there is an opentype variant of the computer-modern font, used in TeX, aaand finally there are "libertine" and "biolinum" from the http://linuxlibertine.sourceforge.net/ project
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  445. # [15:21] <mayly> Philip`, especially the latter has a keyboard-key-style variant which would be great for use in software documentation
  446. # [15:22] <brucel> annevk, is there an idea of what webSRT file suffix will be, eg is it <track kind=captions src=blah.wsrt> ?
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  448. # [15:27] <Philip`> mayly: Thanks, I don't think I'd seen those before
  449. # [15:28] <Philip`> mayly: I haven't done any work on the font thing for quite a long time, but it's possible I'll update it eventually and those might be good ones to add to the list
  450. # [15:28] <annevk> brucel, .srt
  451. # [15:29] <mayly> Philip`, glad to help :)
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  458. # [15:41] <brucel> annevk, thanks. By the way, I'm planning to use your line "designing for a theoretical future always goes wrong" to explain to my wife why I'm buying a vintage Les Paul guitar instead of putting some money aside for my daughter's school fees.
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  460. # [15:42] <annevk> brucel, only if you show it to me one day :p
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  464. # [15:48] <brucel> annevk you're on. We'll play it over a few pints of your Jenever beer.
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  467. # [15:51] <Lachy> brucel, are you suggesting that your daughter going to school is only a theoretical future?
  468. # [15:51] <Lachy> I'm trying to understand how that quote can actually be used to explain why you need some fancy guitar
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  472. # [15:53] <Dashiva> Maybe he's predicting a financial crash, where only physical objects like guitars will retain their value
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  474. # [15:56] <brucel> Lachy, she might turn out not to be bright enough for Uni; there might be some kind of apocalypse before that (I recently watched a documentary called 2012 about all the bad things that might happen).
  475. # [15:57] <Dashiva> Might? Surely you mean "will".
  476. # [15:57] <Lachy> oh, by "school fees", did you mean university fees, rather than normal fees for primary school or high school, which I assume are significantly less
  477. # [15:57] <brucel> philosophically, all future is theoretical, I guess. Whereas vintage Les Pauls are tangible. In fact, they weigh a bloody tonne
  478. # [15:59] <brucel> Lachy, in the socialist utopia that is the UK, schools are free. Except for aristocrats who go to exclusive fee-paying schools called (counter-inuituively) "public school". But I confused the issue of shamefully using the American way of referring to higher education as "school". I'll be saying "awesome" next
  479. # [16:00] <jgraham> brucel: You can always sell the guitar when she has to go to university. Downside: you will fell like you are in Bon Jovi
  480. # [16:00] <jgraham> *feel
  481. # [16:02] <Lachy> brucel, in NSW in Australia, public schools have voluntary fees, which you are expected to pay if you can afford it, and which most people do, cause they're quite reasonable. I'm not sure about other states, but assume they're similar.
  482. # [16:03] <Lachy> oh, and by public schools, I mean what you call state schools, as opposed to private schools, that you call public schools.
  483. # [16:07] <Dashiva> If all fails, you can just move to a country with free high education
  484. # [16:07] <brucel> we had it in the UK; finished just after I graduated. Hopefully no cause and effect there
  485. # [16:07] <daedb> Dashiva: Like Sweden? :)
  486. # [16:08] <Lachy> how does sweden afford to give free higher education?
  487. # [16:08] <daedb> high taxes
  488. # [16:08] <Lachy> ah, right.
  489. # [16:08] <daedb> I don't remember exactly where we are right now, but we have some of the highest taxes in the world iirc
  490. # [16:09] <Dashiva> Yeah, it's funny to hear people from low tax countries complain about taxes
  491. # [16:18] <jgraham> No, funny is when they make it sound like news that they are going to be taught in school that low taxes and small goverment are good when it is pretty clear that they are already taught that
  492. # [16:18] <Dashiva> Or polls showing people think 20% of the budget goes to foreign aid
  493. # [16:19] <jgraham> Or poor people protesting against state supported healthcare
  494. # [16:19] <jgraham> No wait, that's sad not funny
  495. # [16:22] <daedb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg is pretty interesting.
  496. # [16:23] <Lachy> wow, Germany and Belgium have insanely high taxes
  497. # [16:30] <Dashiva> One tax rate doesn't tell the full story, of course. They could have much less in other areas.
  498. # [16:31] <jgraham> It also doesn't tell you how they averaged
  499. # [16:32] <Lachy> jgraham, I assume the average is calculated as the sum of all tax rates for tax payers, divided by the total number of tax payers. i.e. the normal way to calculate an average.
  500. # [16:36] <jgraham> Lachy: It's at least unclear that a simple mean is the most useful quantity since it is heavilly biased by outliers
  501. # [16:36] <Dashiva> It says "The 'Personal rate' is the average rate of income tax for a worker on the average income in that country."
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  503. # [16:36] <Dashiva> Doesn't say what average "average income" is
  504. # [16:39] <daedb> The numbers are from OECD, I assume they've got information about that somewhere :p
  505. # [16:39] <Dashiva> OECD sounds like some sort of organization with some sort of agenda, they obviously can't be trusted unless I can confirm they agree with me
  506. # [16:40] <Lachy> jgraham, when you have such a large population, surely a relatively small number of outliers won't have a significant impact on the average.
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  508. # [16:41] <Dashiva> There's a probably a big difference between mean and median, though
  509. # [16:41] <Dashiva> (which would skew based on income inequality in each country)
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  511. # [16:48] <jgraham> Lachy: Really the size of the population is irrelevant. It's the income distribution that matters
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  516. # [17:02] <hsivonen> High taxes & "free" university makes a lot of sense if too many people don't move between participating and non-participating countries between education and contributing in taxes
  517. # [17:03] <hsivonen> wow. the U.S. has a surprisingly high corporate tax rate
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  527. # [17:49] <gsnedders> jgraham: still around (assuming not...)
  528. # [17:50] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes
  529. # [17:50] <gsnedders> jgraham: in the office?
  530. # [17:50] <jgraham> gsnedders: Will leave in about 10 minutes if the rain stops
  531. # [17:50] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'll come to the office now
  532. # [17:50] <jgraham> or at least gets marginally less bad
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  584. # [20:45] <Dashiva> I recommend only details receive focus and that the summary be a label for it.
  585. # [20:45] <Dashiva> In other words <summary> should not support tabindex
  586. # [20:45] <TabAtkins> Why so?
  587. # [20:45] <Dashiva> From bug 9817
  588. # [20:46] <Dashiva> Seems like that would make it harder to activate <details> using the keyboard
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  591. # [20:47] <TabAtkins> That also makes the activation behavior weird wrt faking, too - the natural thing is to let the <summary> be the target for whatever events trigger a toggle.
  592. # [20:48] <TabAtkins> And the implied semantics there are screwy.
  593. # [20:49] <TabAtkins> Also: There's no need, and certainly no particular desire, to map every element into ARIA semantics. They're just exposed when reasonable. Elements carry their own semantics around without ARIA's help - the mapping table is used more to *restrict* what you can do with ARIA than anything else.
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  623. # [23:00] <AryehGregor> Why doesn't someone define some XML-like thing that gets rid of all the useless stuff like doctypes and whitespace handling, and has basic error handling, but isn't insane like text/html, then try to define that as a third serialization of HTML and get browsers to support it?
  624. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> Whitespace handling?
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  626. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> Also: likely because everyone who cares enough about markup formats is in the XML camp already. ^_^
  627. # [23:01] <hober> AryehGregor: sounds like anne's xml5
  628. # [23:02] <AryehGregor> Well, XML defines at the syntax level that whitespace is irrelevant, then is forced to work around that because of things like <pre>. It would make more sense to say that generic whateverML processors have to treat all whitespace in text nodes and attributes as significant, and let languages worry about exceptions like <pre>.
  629. # [23:02] <AryehGregor> So a generic processor can't reformat the file, no big deal.
  630. # [23:03] <AryehGregor> hober, kind of, except it could be made simpler at the same time.
  631. # [23:03] <AryehGregor> Getting rid of actively bad features like DTDs that processors are supposed to actually fetch, and bad things like version specifiers, and so on.
  632. # [23:04] <AryehGregor> This would make it simpler to implement from scratch, as a side bonus.
  633. # [23:04] <AryehGregor> If you can't fully learn the syntax in 20 minutes, it's probably a bad generic data format. :)
  634. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> If you can't describe the syntax in a diagram on a single page, it's a bad generic data format. ^_^
  635. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> Pretty much.
  636. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> I hadn't realized that XML says that whitespace is irrelevant at the syntax level. That seems silly.
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  638. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> I mean, basically, just define it in the stupid way that everyone knows what XML is: you've got your tags, and quoted attributes, and they have to nest properly, and that's about it. Oh, entities for escaping.
  639. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> Surely the correct level for that is the application.
  640. # [23:06] <hober> "One Page Principle: A specification that will not fit on one page of 8.5x11 inch paper cannot be understood." -- Mark Ardis
  641. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> Yes, that's why you theoretically need to do xml:white-space="preserve" or something like that, on <pre> and such.
  642. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> That's stupid.
  643. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> I think it was following SGML.
  644. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> Or something.
  645. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> I don't know how SGML handled whitespace, and don't want to. :)
  646. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Argh, they broke from SGML tradition in so many places for good reasons; I dont' see why they wouldn't do it everywhere.
  647. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> I hear you.
  648. # [23:08] <AryehGregor> I think you could do acceptable generic error handling. Like if there's a mismatched closing tag, then if it matches some open tag, assume the intervening closing tags were omitted; and if not, ignore it.
  649. # [23:08] <AryehGregor> Not nearly as good as text/html, of course, so it would still be a break, but not terrible.
  650. # [23:09] <AryehGregor> Maybe could be improved a bit without becoming too complicated.
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  653. # [23:09] <AryehGregor> And re: <TabAtkins> Also: likely because everyone who cares enough about markup formats is in the XML camp already. ^_^
  654. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> Nah, I think that would be about the ideal level for a generic mechanism.
  655. # [23:09] <AryehGregor> Except us.
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  657. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but we generally thing text/html is "good enough" so we dont' bother with it. And then we go use JSON or something for everything else.
  658. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> text/html is horrible. The only reason we don't all want to brutally murder it is because implementations have to support it anyway, so it's a sunk cost.
  659. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> Surely a new format could improve worst-case parsing performance, for instance. Any other possible benefits?
  660. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> I guess if there are no big benefits to authors, then it doesn't matter, because implementers will always need to support text/html anyway.
  661. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> It would have to be more verbose than text/html, necessarily.
  662. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> There is marginal benefit, in that it presumably is simpler to write?
  663. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> Why so?
  664. # [23:12] <AryehGregor> Because it's generic, so it can't allow omitting end tags freely, for instance.
  665. # [23:12] <AryehGregor> You'd have to do <img /> and </p> and such.
  666. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> Sure it can. You just described the recovery mechanism. ^_^
  667. # [23:12] <AryehGregor> Ah, I know the advantage.
  668. # [23:12] <AryehGregor> It would let you use DOMs that are impossible in text/html.
  669. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> For some things, at least.
  670. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> Is that an advantage?
  671. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> Sure. It would be great if we could allow more things in <p>, for instance.
  672. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> That's one actual (minor) advantage of XHTML2.
  673. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> Oh, right. Yeah, that's a benefit.
  674. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> <p>'s restrictions are dumb.
  675. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> Also, it would behave more predictably if you make mistakes.
  676. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> text/html is insane.
  677. # [23:14] <AryehGregor> If you put things where they shouldn't belong, it will do crazy unpredictable things like reparent them.
  678. # [23:14] <AryehGregor> There was some other benefit I'm forgetting.
  679. # [23:15] <AryehGregor> I mean, the point is, text/html is evil and it would be great if we didn't have to force it on people.
  680. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> The syntax of a better-xml is trivial to write out as a grammar, anyway.
  681. # [23:15] <AryehGregor> Hmm, I guess you'd need to specify <head> and <body> and <html> and such explicitly all the time.
  682. # [23:15] <AryehGregor> That's more verbosity.
  683. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  684. # [23:16] <AryehGregor> You could skip the doctype, though.
  685. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> I rather enjoy omitting them.
  686. # [23:16] <AryehGregor> Me too. :(
  687. # [23:16] <AryehGregor> But you could just say they can be omitted from the DOM if unnecessary.
  688. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> I just treated them like talismans, anyway. I'd always write "</head><body>" on the same line.
  689. # [23:17] <AryehGregor> So "<link ... /><p>Foo</p>" would parse to a DOM that actually had no <head> or <body>. That sounds evil, though.
  690. # [23:17] <mbrubeck> I don't think most web developers even know that you can omit things like <head>, so no loss to most people.
  691. # [23:17] <mikl0> What MIME Media Type should I use for a document XHTML 1.0 Transitional?
  692. # [23:17] <AryehGregor> mikl0, either text/html or some XML MIME type, depending on what you want to do with it.
  693. # [23:18] <mikl0> AryehGregor: I want to traverse and manipulate the DOM. Thank you.
  694. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> mikl0, that's not clear enough. Are you serving it to web browsers, or XML processors, or both, or neither?
  695. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> Editing it locally?
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  697. # [23:21] <mikl0> AryehGregor: Yes to web browsers and XML processor. If I understand correctly. Editing locally you mean on what?
  698. # [23:21] <AryehGregor> mikl0, if you want it to work in Internet Explorer, serve it as text/html.
  699. # [23:21] <mikl0> AryehGregor: I don't. I also have SVG in it.
  700. # [23:22] <mbrubeck> then use application/xhtml+xml
  701. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> mikl0, inline using namespaces? Then an XML MIME type is necessary for all browsers except Firefox 3.7, which will support it either way.
  702. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, thinking about it, I don't see any real reason why <html> or <body> or <head> is needed in the DOM. Do you?
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  704. # [23:22] <mikl0> in an iframe as I thought I could not do inline.
  705. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I don't know enough to say.
  706. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> Maybe we'd want to require <html>, just to have something to style as the root element, and also so that you know it's HTML.
  707. # [23:23] <mikl0> mbrubeck: thank you
  708. # [23:23] <mikl0> AryehGregor: thank you
  709. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> mikl0, try text/html and see if that works for you. If not, switch to application/xhtml+xml.
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  711. # [23:24] <mbrubeck> AryehGregor: And you want <head> to be styled as display:none so that the contents of <title> don't appear... but I guess if you could allow a missing <head> to replace an empty <head>.
  712. # [23:24] <AryehGregor> mbrubeck, you can style title as display: none.
  713. # [23:24] <mbrubeck> AryehGregor: Oh yeah, good point
  714. # [23:25] <AryehGregor> Anything that can be put in both head and body should be display: none in both cases, so we're fine.
  715. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> Firefox explicitly does that in their UA stylesheet anyway.
  716. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> But yeah, just setting "title,script,style,link,meta,base { display:none; }" in the UA stylesheet should cover all the in-head elements.
  717. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> So you wouldn't necessarily need a <head> in the dom.
  718. # [23:28] <AryehGregor> I've used <body> as an extra implicit wrapper for CSS.
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  721. # [23:28] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure I rely on that on aryeh.name.
  722. # [23:28] <AryehGregor> But you could always just type it if you wanted it.
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  725. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> I've definitely done that too, but yeah, you can just type <body> rather than just relying on it to be generated.
  726. # [23:29] <AryehGregor> I think all body attributes could just as easily go on html.
  727. # [23:29] <AryehGregor> Which I do think we'd want to remain required.
  728. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> Just use <ml>. ^_^
  729. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> Clearly that's a character advantage over xml already.
  730. # [23:32] <AryehGregor> No, it's useful to be able to distinguish HTML from MathML from SVG by sniffing the first few bytes.
  731. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> Ah, I see.
  732. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> So it's just a mimetype issue.
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  734. # [23:32] <AryehGregor> You want auto-syntax highlighting and such.
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The end :)