/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-06-01 / end

Options:

# Session Start: Tue Jun 01 00:00:00 2010
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:05] * Joins: JonathanNeal_ (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
# [00:08] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-171-40-224.dyn.iinet.net.au)
# [00:09] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [00:16] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [00:20] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
# [00:21] * Joins: chriswindows7 (~chris@129-97-120-150.uwaterloo.ca)
# [00:23] * Quits: chriswindows7 (~chris@129-97-120-150.uwaterloo.ca) (Client Quit)
# [00:23] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@y224063.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
# [00:24] * Quits: chris_7 (~chris@129-97-120-150.uwaterloo.ca) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [00:25] * Quits: sebmarkbage (~miranda@h-70-237.A146.priv.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [00:28] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.203.15.234)
# [00:29] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~KaOSoFt@190.24.156.162) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
# [00:44] * Quits: Kuruma_ (~Kuruman@p3016-ipngn2701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [00:46] * Joins: Kuruma_ (~Kuruman@p3016-ipngn2701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
# [00:54] <roc> where's the HTML5 parser test suite that you can run in a browser?
# [00:55] <Philip`> roc: http://gsnedders.html5.org/html5lib-tests/runner.html
# [00:56] <roc> great thanks
# [00:56] <roc> do you know if it tests SVG-in-HTML?
# [00:57] <Philip`> It includes http://gsnedders.html5.org/html5lib-tests/data/tests11.dat
# [00:57] * roc looks
# [00:57] <Philip`> and http://gsnedders.html5.org/html5lib-tests/data/tests10.dat
# [00:57] <roc> great thanks
# [00:57] <Philip`> which look like SVG tests
# [00:57] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@173.200.187.194)
# [00:57] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@173.200.187.194) (Changing host)
# [00:57] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
# [01:08] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
# [01:08] <gsnedders> (I know the harness is a horrible hack, but it was done as such to get it working somewhat in all browsers, inc. Firefox just after the HTML5 Parser merge which had some odd, fun bug)
# [01:09] <roc> it's great
# [01:11] <gsnedders> roc: Try running a single test case in it :)
# [01:12] * gsnedders can't remember half his gripes with it, but he has plenty
# [01:18] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
# [01:33] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@p2062-ipbf37marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [01:48] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@166.135.197.17)
# [01:50] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: aroben)
# [01:53] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
# [01:59] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl) (Quit: Necrathex)
# [02:05] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [02:07] * Quits: jlebar (~jlebar@128.12.22.184) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [02:10] * Joins: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
# [02:38] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [02:43] * Quits: aliok (~58ff41c2@gateway/web/freenode/x-qzneqyxmhfnigcqs) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [02:45] * Joins: chris_7 (~chris@64-9-158-222.fwd.datafoundry.com)
# [02:50] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [02:50] <nessy> foolip: does Opera fire the progress event on video elements?
# [02:50] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [02:51] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [02:54] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [02:57] * Quits: yutak_home (~kee@U017209.ppp.dion.ne.jp) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
# [03:11] * Quits: riven (~riven@53518387.cable.casema.nl) (Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))
# [03:12] * Joins: riven (~riven@53518387.cable.casema.nl)
# [03:18] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [03:20] * Quits: MikeSmithXX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-158-214.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
# [03:37] * Joins: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244)
# [03:40] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [03:41] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@203-140-90-184.eonet.ne.jp)
# [03:52] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: aroben)
# [03:52] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-204-11.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
# [03:56] * Quits: grimboy (~grimboy@bcm-131-111-216-150.girton.cam.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [03:58] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.203.15.234) (Quit: weinig)
# [04:01] * Joins: erlehmann_ (~erlehmann@dslb-094-223-080-206.pools.arcor-ip.net)
# [04:02] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@173.200.187.194)
# [04:02] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@173.200.187.194) (Changing host)
# [04:02] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
# [04:04] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Client Quit)
# [04:05] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@dslb-092-078-130-114.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [04:08] * Joins: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-18-54.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
# [04:11] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-204-11.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [04:26] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [04:27] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: ⌘Q)
# [04:28] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@166.135.197.17) (Quit: paul_irish)
# [04:44] * Quits: deltab (~deltab@cpc1-smal2-0-0-cust270.perr.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [04:53] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@166.135.197.17)
# [04:55] * Quits: cedricv (~cedric@180.129.3.129) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [05:04] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
# [05:05] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@tea04.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp)
# [05:08] * Quits: Henrik`G (~hb@c83-249-67-192.bredband.comhem.se) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [05:09] * Quits: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: roc)
# [05:12] * Joins: cedricv (~cedric@180.129.3.129)
# [05:15] <foolip> nessy: yes, as per spec about the timing
# [05:15] <foolip> last I checked anyway :)
# [05:16] <nessy> yeah - about to write you a bug report :)
# [05:16] <nessy> I think onprogress works, but not addEventListener
# [05:16] <nessy> but then, it's really hard to test because after every test I have to change the file name, because Opera has buffered it and a shift-reload doesn't reload the video resource
# [05:17] <nessy> I have the same problem with Chrome, incidentally
# [05:17] <nessy> that's at least one bug ;)
# [05:18] <nessy> actually - ditch that - it's only the reloading that doesn't work
# [05:18] <nessy> progress events work
# [05:20] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@173.200.178.70)
# [05:20] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@173.200.178.70) (Changing host)
# [05:20] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
# [05:21] <foolip> nessy: use a HTTP server and set the source to URL+'?'+something random
# [05:22] <nessy> good idea
# [05:22] <foolip> is it Math.random() perhaps?
# [05:22] <nessy> still, it would be nice if shift-reload on the page ditched the buffered media resource
# [05:22] <foolip> anyway, that's what zcorpan does
# [05:22] <nessy> Firefox does that
# [05:22] <foolip> Opera doesn't have a special reload I think
# [05:22] <foolip> at least I never found one
# [05:23] <nessy> well, I can reload the resource with shift-click on the reload button
# [05:23] <nessy> also, I can remove all other elements from cache in "Tools"->"Delete private data…"
# [05:23] <nessy> except for media resources
# [05:28] <foolip> oh, that *is* a bug
# [05:28] <foolip> can you file one at http://bugs.opera.com ?
# [05:29] <nessy> ok
# [05:30] <nessy> and webkit is next …. :(
# [05:32] <nessy> gah, seems impossible for me to get an account there :(
# [05:32] <nessy> will try the wizard ...
# [05:35] <jwm> hehe
# [05:36] <jwm> amazing how many opera people are in whatwg
# [05:39] * Quits: chris_7 (~chris@64-9-158-222.fwd.datafoundry.com) (Quit: Leaving)
# [05:40] <nessy> jwm: I am using all browsers :)
# [05:40] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: aroben)
# [05:45] * Joins: roc (~roc@121.98.230.221)
# [05:47] <MikeSmithX> jwm: it's not amazing if you consider how much market capital Opera has
# [05:48] <foolip> we like standards, etc etc :)
# [05:48] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
# [05:50] * Quits: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
# [05:52] * Joins: cpearce_ (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
# [05:53] <jwm> MikeSmith: less than all other browsers?
# [05:53] <jwm> hehe
# [05:54] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [05:54] * cpearce_ is now known as cpearce
# [06:02] <MikeSmith> jwm: inversely proportional
# [06:02] <MikeSmith> little-known axiom
# [06:09] * Quits: cedricv (~cedric@180.129.3.129) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [06:17] * Joins: cpearce_ (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
# [06:19] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
# [06:19] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [06:19] * cpearce_ is now known as cpearce
# [06:25] <MikeSmith> what are some synonyms for the word "encode"?
# [06:25] <MikeSmith> in the general sense
# [06:26] * Joins: cedricv (~cedric@180.129.3.129)
# [06:27] <MikeSmith> ok, encrypt is close I guess
# [06:41] * Joins: cpearce_ (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
# [06:43] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [06:44] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [06:44] * cpearce_ is now known as cpearce
# [06:48] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
# [06:58] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [07:04] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909])
# [07:31] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
# [07:39] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@62-50-199-254.client.stsn.net)
# [07:46] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-d9cee455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
# [07:50] * Joins: aho (~nya@f052127199.adsl.alicedsl.de)
# [07:58] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
# [08:08] * Quits: Mitsurugi (~mitsu@unaffiliated/mitsurugi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [08:09] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-d9cee455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [08:11] * Joins: Martijnc (~martijn@91.176.137.94)
# [08:13] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
# [08:17] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
# [08:23] * Joins: Mitsurugi (~mitsu@unaffiliated/mitsurugi)
# [08:23] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
# [08:23] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
# [08:25] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@c-1799e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
# [08:25] * Quits: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-97.uwaterloo.ca) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [08:35] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-142-235.catv.broadband.hu)
# [08:36] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@52.95.189.109.customer.cdi.no) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
# [08:42] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
# [08:42] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
# [08:48] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
# [08:51] * Quits: Martijnc (~martijn@91.176.137.94)
# [08:52] * Joins: Martijnc (~martijn@91.176.137.94)
# [09:01] * Quits: roc (~roc@121.98.230.221) (Quit: roc)
# [09:10] <zcorpan_> foolip: when are you moving?
# [09:10] <hsivonen> how up-to-date is html5lib these days?
# [09:14] * Joins: ayo (~nya@f051182156.adsl.alicedsl.de)
# [09:15] * Quits: aho (~nya@f052127199.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [09:19] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
# [09:27] * Joins: davidhund_ (~davidhund@dnuhd.xs4all.nl)
# [09:32] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
# [09:34] <jgraham> hsivonen: According to the existing testcases it's not that bad
# [09:34] <jgraham> A couple of patches haven't been pushed to google code
# [09:38] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
# [09:39] <hsivonen> jgraham: OK. I'm going to advertise it to the SVG WG then
# [09:40] <hsivonen> jgraham: it has SVG support, right?
# [09:40] <jgraham> hsivonen: Right
# [09:41] <jgraham> From memory the missing things is the recent change to <button> or something
# [09:41] * Joins: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-67-180-92-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [09:41] <jgraham> s/things/thing/
# [09:42] <hsivonen> ok
# [09:43] <annevk> the SVG minutes didn't consider html5lib to be a real implementation
# [09:44] <annevk> if you're talking about that
# [09:44] * Quits: cedricv (~cedric@180.129.3.129) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [09:49] * Joins: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl)
# [09:55] * Joins: svl (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl)
# [09:57] * jgraham wonders what was being discussed
# [09:58] <annevk> read it and weep: http://www.w3.org/2010/05/31-svg-minutes.html
# [10:00] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-18-54.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
# [10:01] * Joins: cedricv (~cedric@180.129.3.129)
# [10:01] <jgraham> Sigh
# [10:02] <jgraham> No one noticed that webkit are implementing then?
# [10:03] * Joins: gregw (~gregwilki@95.149.32.127)
# [10:05] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [10:10] <annevk> dunno, roc pointed that out on the list this morning
# [10:11] <annevk> btw, I don't think anything will actually happen
# [10:11] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
# [10:14] * hsivonen just followed up to roc's email
# [10:16] * ayo is now known as aho
# [10:16] <hsivonen> the "spec X is not done" mentality *within* the W3C is so bizarre
# [10:18] * erlehmann_ is now known as erlehmann
# [10:23] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@213.236.208.247)
# [10:31] * Joins: akamike (~akamike@94-193-106-14.zone7.bethere.co.uk)
# [10:33] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.158.129)
# [10:34] <foolip> zcorpan_: as soon as I'm back in sweden, tillträde is July 5 I think
# [10:35] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
# [10:39] <zcorpan_> foolip: ok. fun :)
# [10:40] <zcorpan_> foolip: if i go back to video work, i still have a reason to go to göteborg then :P
# [10:40] * Joins: gregw_ (~gregwilki@95.149.35.81)
# [10:41] <jgraham> foolip: You are moving? That's sad :(
# [10:41] <jgraham> Well I mean it is hopefully nice for you
# [10:42] * Quits: gregw (~gregwilki@95.149.32.127) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [10:42] <foolip> I'm quite thrilled
# [10:43] <foolip> zcorpan_: you're always welcome to work on video
# [10:43] <jgraham> To be leaving Linköping?
# [10:44] * Joins: htmlr (~htmlr@124-168-150-128.dyn.iinet.net.au)
# [10:45] <foolip> jgraham: Honestly, yes. Outside of work there's nothing I enjoy about Linköping.
# [10:46] <jgraham> Well yeah I would hardly recommend it as a holiday destination
# [10:48] <foolip> Most importantly, I think my wife will like Göteborg better.
# [10:48] <foolip> More people. People are rare in Sweden...
# [10:49] * Parts: davidhund_ (~davidhund@dnuhd.xs4all.nl)
# [10:49] <jgraham> Not stockholm then?
# [10:50] <foolip> No, Stockholm is the capital and thus clearly sucks, as I am not from the capital.
# [10:50] * Quits: htmlr (~htmlr@124-168-150-128.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
# [10:50] <foolip> That's the theory anyway :)
# [10:50] * Joins: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk)
# [10:50] <foolip> Also, they talk funny.
# [10:51] <jgraham> That makes no sense
# [10:51] <annevk> foolip, that goes for all of Sweden, I have to say
# [10:51] <foolip> Haha
# [10:51] <zcorpan_> they talk funny in göteborg too
# [10:51] <hsivonen> Is there an Opera office in Stockholm?
# [10:51] <jgraham> But sure Göteborg is nice
# [10:51] <jgraham> hsivonen: A tiny one. Two engineers and some sales guys
# [10:51] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: yes
# [10:52] <hsivonen> ok
# [10:52] <zcorpan_> there's an office in örebro also
# [10:52] <zcorpan_> a tinier one
# [10:52] <jgraham> zcorpan_: You don't count as "an office"
# [10:52] <zcorpan_> jgraham: :(
# [10:52] <jgraham> One person is "working from home" You need two people to make an office
# [10:53] <jgraham> Unless you are actually not working from home I guess
# [10:54] <annevk> if Rijk is actually in wijk bij duurstede maybe we should petition for a Dutch office here in Utrecht
# [10:59] * Joins: Phae (~phaeness@gatek.mh.bbc.co.uk)
# [11:00] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-19-235.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
# [11:06] * Quits: Martijnc (~martijn@91.176.137.94) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [11:08] * Quits: Mitsurugi (~mitsu@unaffiliated/mitsurugi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [11:10] <hsivonen> I wonder what version number I should give to the next release of the V.nu parser...
# [11:10] * Joins: AnthonyCat (~AnthonyCa@2002:3aaf:19c2:0:21f:5bff:feb6:f0e1)
# [11:10] <hsivonen> It should be 1.3 at minimum and I don't want to go all the way to 2.0 yet
# [11:11] <hsivonen> possible choices: 1.3, 1.5 and 1.9
# [11:13] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [11:14] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@62-50-199-254.client.stsn.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [11:15] <annevk> just do 1.3 then
# [11:15] <annevk> you're not in competition (yet) so there's no reason to inflate your numbers
# [11:16] * Parts: AnthonyCat (~AnthonyCa@2002:3aaf:19c2:0:21f:5bff:feb6:f0e1)
# [11:16] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
# [11:19] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. makes sense
# [11:19] <hsivonen> I'm thinking of going to 2.0 when I add a sanitizer
# [11:22] * Quits: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-67-180-92-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [11:23] * Joins: Mitsurugi (~mitsu@unaffiliated/mitsurugi)
# [11:24] <jgraham> Make it converge on the golden ratio
# [11:25] <annevk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaT7thTxyq8 is really funny
# [11:26] <annevk> for sure our marketing department has their highlights
# [11:26] <hsivonen> New thing I learned today: Nautilus caches the file listings on samba mounts for days and doesn't show new files without clicking the reload button
# [11:26] <hsivonen> FAIL
# [11:32] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@62-50-199-254.client.stsn.net)
# [11:32] <annevk> what happened to publishing new drafts?
# [11:32] <annevk> did someone object in private or so or are all the chairs on holiday break?
# [11:32] * Quits: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [11:33] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
# [11:34] * Quits: Mitsurugi (~mitsu@unaffiliated/mitsurugi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [11:36] * Joins: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244)
# [11:37] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:38] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
# [11:39] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-forum/2010AprJun/0101.html (W3C Member-only) (doesn't provide an answer to the above question but is interesting)
# [11:40] * Joins: danbri_ (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
# [11:41] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Quit: going back to danbri.org)
# [11:43] <Dashiva> annevk, you tease
# [11:46] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
# [11:48] <MikeSmith> "Potato slow. Opera fast." is great
# [11:48] <MikeSmith> who are the dudes in the video, I wonder?
# [11:48] <zcorpan_> Odd & Even
# [11:49] <MikeSmith> annevk: nobody privately objected to publishing new drafts, btw
# [11:49] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: hey!
# [11:49] <MikeSmith> I wanted to bug you about something
# [11:49] <MikeSmith> IRI checking
# [11:49] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: i know
# [11:49] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
# [11:50] * Joins: pauld (~chatzilla@host86-134-111-205.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
# [11:50] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: the messages look nice, but i don't have time right now to write tests
# [11:51] * zcorpan_ is eating websocket cookies
# [11:51] <MikeSmith> ok, no oproblem
# [11:51] <MikeSmith> *problem (no o)
# [11:51] * Joins: Mitsurugi (~mitsu@unaffiliated/mitsurugi)
# [11:51] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: yeah, I figured you were still in Websocket Wonderland for a while
# [11:51] * annevk is sort of curious what Hixie is up to
# [11:52] * jgraham is sort of curious what the chairs are up to
# [11:53] * hsivonen wonders if the chairs noticed that Gecko, WebKit and Dreamweaver made progress on implementing elements proposed for removal since the start of the survey
# [11:54] <annevk> at least one of them should have noticed stuff landing in WebKit :)
# [11:54] <hsivonen> not to suggest that that's in any way relevant to Decisions, of course. ;-)
# [11:55] <annevk> depending on the outcome of the decision, we may have came up with a few more <embed>-like elements
# [11:56] <annevk> with as difference that these have a proper specification
# [11:56] <hsivonen> annevk: do you mean elements supported by browsers and Adobe's authoring tools but not the spec?
# [11:57] <zcorpan_> damned browsers making up their own tags
# [11:57] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah
# [11:57] <annevk> with "the spec" being the "the spec the W3C publishes"
# [11:57] <jgraham> If these decisions don't keep the elements then the HTMLWG deserves to become a laughing stock
# [11:58] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-19-235.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
# [11:58] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
# [12:00] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@213.236.208.247) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [12:00] <Dashiva> You can't really blame the WG for chair decisions, can you? Well, and the people who create the issues.
# [12:03] <Philip`> You can blame the WG for putting up with it
# [12:03] * Joins: Martijnc (~martijn@193.191.8.29)
# [12:03] <jgraham> We could have a revolution
# [12:03] <Philip`> The W3C and the chairs only have authority because people choose to give it to them
# [12:04] <jgraham> With pitchforks and torches and things
# [12:04] <annevk> Revolution is XHTML2
# [12:04] <jgraham> Although those typically end with the revolutionary leader dyning in an unpleasant way, so if anyone asks it was Philip`'s idea
# [12:04] <annevk> Though from a W3C perspective maybe HTML5 is indeed revolution... Strange world.
# [12:04] <jgraham> *dying
# [12:04] <Dashiva> annevk: That depends on what you revolt _against_
# [12:05] <Dashiva> You could say XHTML2 was a revolution against HTML, and HTML5 is a revolution against XHTML2
# [12:05] <annevk> What if you just wanna evolve?
# [12:06] <Philip`> The WG members could form a new working group that's entirely independent of the W3C with its own non-consensus model for making decisions and that develops its own specification called HTML5
# [12:06] <Dashiva> That's a question of authority, I suppose
# [12:06] <Philip`> and so it's their fault if they choose to work within the existing system instead
# [12:06] <Dashiva> From the W3C viewpoint, I'm sure XHTML2 _was_ evolution
# [12:07] <annevk> From miles high it may indeed seem that way
# [12:08] <aho> i liked xhtml2's "hx"
# [12:08] <aho> using h1 (etc) in conjunction with nested sections is sorta weird
# [12:08] <annevk> AlexD keeps it up: "HTML5 is vapourware _until_ the spec. reaches recommendation status."
# [12:09] <jgraham> aho: Yeah but it is kinda broken because you can still use <h> and <h1> in the same document
# [12:09] <annevk> vapourware: "New software that has been announced or marketed but has not been produced."
# [12:09] <jgraham> This is like the opposite of vapourware
# [12:09] <jgraham> We haven't announce it is done but it is still beiong produced
# [12:09] <aho> jgraham, still... i'd like to point out that this is a section-nesting heading and not a regular one
# [12:09] <Dashiva> solidware?
# [12:10] <jgraham> aho: They are all just headings
# [12:10] <aho> using a weight-free heading would do the trick
# [12:10] <annevk> Guess I should stop... http://xkcd.com/386/
# [12:10] <aho> jgraham, yea... they are all just tags (?) :>
# [12:12] <aho> i just liked that there was some heading which indicated that its intended weight depends on the section nesting
# [12:12] <Dashiva> aho: Isn't that obvious, though? Since h1 would only be at the very top of the document normally
# [12:12] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
# [12:12] <aho> and tables are normally only used for tabular data? :D
# [12:14] <annevk> aho, by that argument we should have <table2> which will be only used correctly, which of course is nonsense
# [12:14] * Quits: Mitsurugi (~mitsu@unaffiliated/mitsurugi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [12:14] <jgraham> Dashiva: I think something like LiquidCrystalWare would be better since it appears all over the place but the theory is still not complete
# [12:14] <aho> bad analogy :>
# [12:15] <jgraham> (of course the theory of any state of matter is not complete but...)
# [12:15] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Client Quit)
# [12:15] <annevk> aho, works for me :)
# [12:16] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
# [12:17] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@c-1799e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [12:17] <Hixie> you know, if the svgwg thinks html5 is vapourware, maybe we should just use the same process as svg 1.2 did
# [12:18] <Hixie> and just stamp html5 as a REC and ignore 10% of the feedback we've gotten, just like they did
# [12:18] <Hixie> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1155235213&count=1
# [12:18] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@c-1799e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
# [12:18] <Dashiva> Hixie: The rules don't apply to XML languages, you should know that by now
# [12:19] <Hixie> html5 has an xml serialisation!
# [12:19] <Dashiva> A fig leaf, nothing more
# [12:19] <aho> annevk, "Sections may contain headings of any rank, but authors are strongly encouraged to either use only h1 elements, or to use elements of the appropriate rank for the section's nesting level."
# [12:20] <aho> if there were an element for headings without any weight, it would be clear which route you picked
# [12:20] <Dashiva> It would be clear, but for what purpose?
# [12:21] <aho> say there is a doc... and 5 years later some different person writes a new stylesheet
# [12:22] <Dashiva> No problem at all
# [12:23] <aho> there is also no problem with using single letter variables exclusively
# [12:23] <aho> it just takes a bit longer to understand than necessary
# [12:23] <Dashiva> There's a rather significant backwards compatibility problem, for no actual benefit
# [12:23] <annevk> aho, just use <h1>
# [12:24] <annevk> <h2-6> is only if you care about backwards compatibility
# [12:24] <aho> if you use canvas and all those new apis... why would you care about such a small detail?
# [12:24] <annevk> indeed
# [12:24] <annevk> why do you?
# [12:25] <aho> breaking backward copatibility of weight-free headings, that is
# [12:25] * Quits: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [12:25] * Quits: Martijnc (~martijn@193.191.8.29) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [12:25] <Dashiva> Because not every page uses canvas?
# [12:26] <aho> article, aside, section, nav... they "break" backwards compatibility the same way
# [12:26] <aho> not really much harm done there
# [12:26] * Joins: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-97.uwaterloo.ca)
# [12:26] <Dashiva> Those are different. They _add_ semantics to what is considered meaningless by older browsers
# [12:26] <aho> well, i did like h/hx. that's all :P
# [12:27] <aho> being able to differenciate between weighted headings and weight-free/section-nesting headings doesn't add anything?
# [12:28] <annevk> nope
# [12:28] <aho> wouldn't that make the structure clearer?
# [12:28] <Dashiva> You're the one claiming it does, shouldn't you answer?
# [12:28] <Dashiva> <Dashiva> aho: Isn't that obvious, though? Since h1 would only be at the very top of the document normally
# [12:29] * Joins: Mitsurugi (~mitsu@unaffiliated/mitsurugi)
# [12:32] <Dashiva> Hixie: Last link in that blog post is dead, by the way
# [12:33] <aho> well, imo h/hx:h1-h6 is sorta like span:em/b/strong/i
# [12:33] <aho> i really liked that
# [12:33] <aho> but it's not like this will be added to any spec any time soon
# [12:33] <Hixie> Dashiva: that's even better
# [12:33] <Hixie> Dashiva: so much for stable links at the w3c!
# [12:33] <aho> so, i don't really see why you think it's necessary to discuss this in depth
# [12:33] <Dashiva> Maybe it wasn't cool enough to not change
# [12:35] * Joins: smaug___ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
# [12:36] <Dashiva> aho: Span has no semantics, the proposed hx does.
# [12:36] <aho> yes
# [12:36] <aho> h/hx on its own doesn't have specific weight
# [12:36] <aho> sorta like a td on its own doesn't have much use :>
# [12:37] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@p2062-ipbf37marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
# [12:40] <Dashiva> I guess you're just an aho, after all...
# [12:40] <aho> *clap* *clap*
# [12:42] <annevk> Dashiva, Hixie, I guess it is http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/CR-SVGMobile12-20060810/lc3-replies-public.html
# [12:42] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@203-140-90-184.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [12:44] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [12:46] <aho> Dashiva, if you see some hx somewhere, you know it's a heading which relies on section-wrapping. if you see h1, it's either the old kind of heading *or* one which relies on section-wrapping. the hx element doesn't have this kind of ambiguity - and that's something i generally like
# [12:47] <aho> e.g. i like code conventions, because they help getting rid of that stuff
# [12:47] <aho> saves time
# [12:48] <jgraham> aho: I have no idea how you envison that working
# [12:49] <jgraham> What happens with <body><hx><section><hx><section<h1>
# [12:49] <jgraham> (ignore the typo)
# [12:49] <jgraham> Is the <h1> a top level heading or a third level heading
# [12:51] <jgraham> (exactly this use case happens any time a mashup embeds content that uses <h1> in a container that uses <section>)
# [12:53] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [12:53] <aho> what happens in a mashup that embeds content that uses <h2-6> in a container that uses section? ;>
# [12:55] <annevk> it would just work
# [12:55] <aho> so, that section h4 thing you just embedded will look like what exactly?
# [12:56] <jgraham> aho: The logical outline is well defined
# [12:57] <jgraham> aho: The style will (by default) just depend on the tag name, but that is a CSS limitation taht would be worse if we also had <hx>
# [12:57] <jgraham> Hopefully we will get ::section(n) and so on
# [12:57] <aho> -moz-any() is nice for this stuff .)
# [12:58] <aho> e.g. section any(h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6,hx) { first level heading}
# [12:59] <aho> if it all were hx you wouldn't have to do that though
# [12:59] <jgraham> Right, but make the section a pseudo class that matches all level one sections
# [12:59] <jgraham> aho: It can't all be <hx>
# [13:00] <aho> why not? (if we ignore mashups)
# [13:00] <jgraham> We don't ignore mashups
# [13:00] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [13:00] <jgraham> If we make invalid assumptions we can prove anything
# [13:00] <aho> i never used any mashup, i never made one, i never will make one
# [13:00] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cable.casema.nl)
# [13:00] <aho> i don't even know one popular mashup
# [13:01] <Dashiva> If you aren't making mashups, it's pretty much a non-issue
# [13:01] <jgraham> You never used an online feed reader, for example?
# [13:01] <Dashiva> Mashups are the important case, not something to ignore
# [13:02] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@62-50-199-254.client.stsn.net) (Quit: shepazu)
# [13:03] <aho> aggregators typically process the feeds quite a bit, but they generally don't really work all that well
# [13:06] <jgraham> "process the feeds quite a bit" typically means "do some sanitization". Having to rewrite the heading tags to fit in with the output template is rather different
# [13:07] <aho> well, currently you just have random headings there
# [13:07] <aho> i don't really see how that's super awesome
# [13:07] <aho> <:
# [13:17] <aho> in retrospect i think it would have been better if i hadn't mentioned xhtml2's hx. i hadn't expected this kind of annoying discussion... giving that it's a dead spec n all... oh well :>
# [13:17] <aho> it's nice that html5 picked up section tho (there! i said it) :>
# [13:31] * Joins: chris_7 (~chris@64-9-158-233.fwd.datafoundry.com)
# [13:33] * Joins: Martijnc (~martijn@193.191.8.29)
# [13:39] * Quits: aho (~nya@f051182156.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION)
# [13:42] * Quits: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (Quit: Coyote finally caught me)
# [13:42] * Joins: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
# [13:57] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-209-117.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
# [14:05] * Quits: chris_7 (~chris@64-9-158-233.fwd.datafoundry.com) (Quit: Leaving)
# [14:11] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@62-50-198-42.client.stsn.net)
# [14:14] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@62-50-198-42.client.stsn.net) (Client Quit)
# [14:15] * Joins: AnthonyCat (~AnthonyCa@CPE-58-175-25-194.mqdl1.lon.bigpond.net.au)
# [14:16] * Parts: AnthonyCat (~AnthonyCa@CPE-58-175-25-194.mqdl1.lon.bigpond.net.au)
# [14:19] * hsivonen notes "WebM will be supported by all three major browsers: Google Chrome, Mozilla Firefox and Opera" on OMG! UBUNTU!
# [14:19] * danbri_ is now known as danbri
# [14:19] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Changing host)
# [14:19] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
# [14:19] <Peter`> I'm still wondering what Apple will do with WebM
# [14:20] <Peter`> no word on that I'm assuming?
# [14:20] <Peter`> (Next to Steve Jobs saying he doesn't like it)
# [14:24] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com)
# [14:25] <Dashiva> Of course he doesn't like it, it wasn't invited by him :)
# [14:25] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Quit: zzzzleepy!)
# [14:32] * Joins: pmuellr (~pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-paoghxuclcmggvsr)
# [14:36] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se)
# [14:36] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se) (Changing host)
# [14:36] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
# [14:37] * Quits: hamaji (~hamaji@220.109.219.244) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [14:38] * Quits: gregw_ (~gregwilki@95.149.35.81) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
# [14:38] * Joins: gregw (~gregwilki@95.149.35.81)
# [14:39] * Joins: hamaji (~hamaji@220.109.219.244)
# [15:01] <Lachy> Peter`, Apple won't support WebM while there is still a percieved risk of patent trolls
# [15:02] <Peter`> Clearity on the legal patent subjects might take months, if not years
# [15:02] <Lachy> they will at least be waiting to see what comes out of the FUD from the MPEG LA, if anything at all. But, they'll likely just maintain the threat for ages, like they have with Theora.
# [15:03] <Lachy> right, so I wouldn't recommend holding your breath for Apple to support it.
# [15:03] <hsivonen> Lachy: citation needed
# [15:03] <Peter`> I'm quite curious about the future and implementation of WebM, specifically now Microsoft is more or less supporting it as well
# [15:04] <Lachy> but I believe there will at least be 3rd party quick time components made available one day, which will enable support in Safari.
# [15:05] <daedb> Apple doesn't even support Vorbis yet, so any official support for VP8 seems incredibly unlikely.
# [15:05] <Peter`> But following Theora and the lack of a formal stance of the company on WebM, different from Steve Jobs' own thoughts, it's still somewhat undefined right now. As hsivonen already said, while it's unlikely, nothing is clear
# [15:05] <hsivonen> It's so frustrating that XiphQT still doesn't have Thusnelda. it would be nice to have WebM support rolled into XiphQT
# [15:06] <hsivonen> Peter`: what have I said?
# [15:06] <Peter`> "citation needed"
# [15:06] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-142-235.catv.broadband.hu)
# [15:06] <Lachy> hsivonen, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/20/jobs_on_vp8/
# [15:07] <Lachy> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/21/mpegla_mulls_patent_license_for_webm/
# [15:07] <hsivonen> Peter`: I meant I wanted to see Lachy's source
# [15:07] <hsivonen> Lachy: thanks
# [15:08] <hsivonen> Lachy: I think the Register is extrapolating quite a bit from Steve dropping one URL without commentary
# [15:09] <Lachy> yes, that's true. But it's not too much of a stretch given what Jobs previously said about forming a patent pool around open video codecs
# [15:09] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.112)
# [15:10] <Lachy> There was another article I read that was a set of email exchanges between a reporter, Larry Horn from the MPEG LA and, I believe, someone from Xiph, which talked about the FUD that the MPEG LA have maintained for years over theora
# [15:10] <Peter`> hsivonen: alright, sorry :)
# [15:12] <hsivonen> Lachy: well, yeah, anyone can be "looking into" whatever
# [15:13] <hsivonen> (As I understand it, the FUD Monty was referring to wasn't MPEG-LA FUD per se but FUD from the MPEG camp. IIRC, MP3 licenses haven't been managed by MPEG-LA.)
# [15:13] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@p2062-ipbf37marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [15:14] <Peter`> I'm assuming Google knows what they're doing though, also considering the list of companies who already committed to VP8, there has to be a certain degree of certainty. A chance of submarine patents arising always remains, with any product that's entering an already-existing market
# [15:15] * Joins: gregw_ (~gregwilki@95.149.35.158)
# [15:16] <hsivonen> when creating a Ubuntu USB installation stick with a large (over 1 GB) persistence file, is the creation of the persistence file supposed to be insanely slow?
# [15:16] <hsivonen> I'm wondering if I have bought a bad USB stick
# [15:17] <hsivonen> also, it seem the progress meter was programmed by the person who came up with the Windows file copy progress meter
# [15:17] * Quits: gregw (~gregwilki@95.149.35.81) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [15:17] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@U017209.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
# [15:22] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
# [15:22] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-142-235.catv.broadband.hu)
# [15:22] <Lachy> Peter`, IANAL, but I think the number of other companies supporting WebM, many of whom I assume hold numerous patents of their own, give some level of protection because they may hold patents that they can use defensively against others who aggressively attack VP8
# [15:23] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@p2062-ipbf37marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
# [15:25] * Quits: slartsa (~Lari@adsl-215-234-204.kymp.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [15:25] <zcorpan_> http://twitter.com/microft/statuses/15176790401
# [15:32] * Joins: mamund_ (mamund@frost.nullshells.net)
# [15:34] <Peter`> Lachy: That's a good point, specifically given that the license states that you cannot file patent claims against Google if you're using the specification. Widely interpreted, one could say that they're using open-source to minimize the chance of patent claims
# [15:34] <Peter`> Then again, IANAL either
# [15:36] * Quits: Martijnc (~martijn@193.191.8.29) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [15:36] * Quits: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-97.uwaterloo.ca) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [15:38] * Quits: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net) (Disconnected by services)
# [15:38] <MikeSmith> can anybody remind me what happened the the "Copy and paste" section of the HTML5 spec?
# [15:39] <MikeSmith> it seems to be commented out in the source now
# [15:40] * mamund_ is now known as mamund
# [15:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it used to define copy and paste in terms of drag and drop
# [15:42] <MikeSmith> ok
# [15:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: then it was pointed out to Hixie that some browser(s?) exposed copy and paste in a distinct way already
# [15:43] <MikeSmith> ah
# [15:43] <MikeSmith> I wonder if there is open bug on it
# [15:44] <hsivonen> What kind of write speed (MB/s) should one expect from a USB stick?
# [15:44] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Varies massively
# [15:45] * Quits: Mitsurugi (~mitsu@unaffiliated/mitsurugi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [15:46] <hsivonen> OK, I bought USB sticks that suck
# [15:46] <hsivonen> sigh
# [15:47] * Quits: gregw_ (~gregwilki@95.149.35.158) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
# [15:47] * Joins: gregw (~gregwilki@95.149.35.158)
# [15:48] <hsivonen> lesson learned: shop at a computer store. don't rely on office supply stores
# [15:49] <hsivonen> aaargh. now after spending over 2 hours creating the persistence file, it's just starting to create a file system inside the persistence file
# [15:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: found http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8800
# [15:54] * Joins: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.137.94)
# [15:57] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
# [15:59] * Quits: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [16:00] * Joins: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-97.uwaterloo.ca)
# [16:06] * Joins: remysharp (~remysharp@delice.gotadsl.co.uk)
# [16:09] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163)
# [16:11] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-142-235.catv.broadband.hu) (Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net)
# [16:12] * Quits: ryuone (~ryuone@ryuone.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [16:13] * Quits: doublec (~doublec@li30-216.members.linode.com) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
# [16:22] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: aroben)
# [16:24] * Joins: slartsa (~Lari@adsl-215-234-204.kymp.net)
# [16:27] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@c-1799e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan_)
# [16:45] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Disconnected...)
# [16:47] * Joins: ryuone (~ryuone@ryuone.com)
# [16:48] * Joins: doublec (~doublec@li30-216.members.linode.com)
# [16:48] * Joins: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
# [16:51] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-d9cee455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
# [16:55] * Quits: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-97.uwaterloo.ca) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [16:58] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@p2062-ipbf37marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [17:02] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [17:05] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@62-50-199-254.client.stsn.net)
# [17:05] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [17:07] * Quits: svl (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky!)
# [17:10] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [17:15] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [17:15] * Joins: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-97.uwaterloo.ca)
# [17:22] * Quits: remysharp (~remysharp@delice.gotadsl.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [17:22] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@166.135.197.17) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [17:23] * Joins: Martijnc_ (~martijn@91.176.137.94)
# [17:32] <Peter`> MikeSmith (?)/W3C: The link in the latest Twitter message gives a 404 error http://twitter.com/w3c/status/15185050915
# [17:32] * Quits: Phae (~phaeness@gatek.mh.bbc.co.uk)
# [17:36] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-171-40-224.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [17:39] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [17:42] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
# [17:49] <boblet> anyone into diff and on a Mac should check out www.kaleidoscopeapp.com
# [17:50] * boblet is sad that he prolly fits this category
# [17:51] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p1201-ipbf709osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: boblet)
# [17:59] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-oyjeqlajqkxmqyij)
# [18:09] * Joins: nielsle (~nielsle@1503032406.dhcp.dbnet.dk)
# [18:12] * Quits: JonathanNeal_ (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: Leaving)
# [18:15] * Joins: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison)
# [18:23] * Joins: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-24-130-129-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [18:26] * jwalden is surprised he can't find an Opera bug-reporting menu item or UI in Opera itself (not for site bugs, but for Opera bugs)
# [18:27] <Philip`> jwalden: Help -> Support -> Report a bug?
# [18:27] <jwalden> Philip`: more indirect than I'd expected
# [18:27] * jwalden should note this is a beta version
# [18:28] <jwalden> I guess Firefox doesn't have a similar item, so I guess it's not too odd
# [18:30] * jwalden finally got annoyed enough to report http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100405#l-486 now that it's breaking his site's intended rendering
# [18:31] <jwalden> although, big blue background is probably a better rendering than the non-scaled background you get in a browser that doesn't support background-size, if your screen resolution/browser window are large enough
# [18:31] <jwalden> or at least less failtastic
# [18:32] * Quits: slartsa (~Lari@adsl-215-234-204.kymp.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [18:33] * Quits: pauld (~chatzilla@host86-134-111-205.range86-134.btcentralplus.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [18:39] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
# [18:41] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
# [18:42] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-111-166.dynamic.qsc.de)
# [18:44] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
# [18:45] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-eptkevlmubobwsrj)
# [18:46] * Joins: Darxus (~darxus@panic.chaosreigns.com)
# [18:46] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.19.143)
# [18:53] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.246.18.118)
# [18:55] * Quits: akamike (~akamike@94-193-106-14.zone7.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: akamike)
# [18:58] * Quits: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.159.231) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [18:58] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.159.231) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [18:58] * erlehmann is now known as erduschmann
# [18:58] * Joins: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.159.231)
# [19:00] * Joins: cying (~cying@173-164-164-4-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
# [19:01] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: Connection timed out)
# [19:05] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.19.143) (Quit: weinig)
# [19:06] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@64.119.159.231)
# [19:07] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [19:09] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1f02:223:12ff:fe55:c1f)
# [19:09] * Quits: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.159.231) (Quit: Gettin' out while I still can!)
# [19:09] * Joins: f1lt3r_ (~f1lt3r@64.119.159.231)
# [19:16] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
# [19:24] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@32.173.66.190)
# [19:26] * Joins: slartsa (~Lari@adsl-215-234-204.kymp.net)
# [19:27] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com)
# [19:29] * maikmerten is now known as maik|eat
# [19:31] * Joins: variable (~93a12525@gateway/web/freenode/x-bmpgcfwahrprkfww)
# [19:31] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@32.173.66.190) (Quit: paul_irish)
# [19:34] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
# [19:35] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@32.173.66.190)
# [19:37] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
# [19:42] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: Connection timed out)
# [19:46] * Joins: roc (~roc@121.98.230.221)
# [19:47] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@32.173.66.190) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [19:49] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
# [19:49] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@32.173.66.190)
# [19:51] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1f02:223:12ff:fe55:c1f) (Quit: weinig)
# [19:52] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@32.173.66.190) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [19:53] * Quits: cying (~cying@173-164-164-4-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [19:53] * Joins: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153)
# [19:56] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
# [19:57] * Joins: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-154-19.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
# [19:59] * Quits: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-154-19.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
# [19:59] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-209-117.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [19:59] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-154-19.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
# [20:01] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-vmcqfdifarmbtaxg)
# [20:07] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.19.143)
# [20:10] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-bfxjaaoatmjckgrr)
# [20:18] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: Connection timed out)
# [20:19] * Joins: michaeln (~michaeln@nat/google/x-ssbkigoenvznonsk)
# [20:22] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: mhausenblas)
# [20:25] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-oyjeqlajqkxmqyij) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [20:25] * Joins: tyoshino_ (~tyoshino@220.109.219.244)
# [20:28] * Joins: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-154-19.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
# [20:28] * Joins: ROBOd_ (~robod@89.123.158.129)
# [20:28] * Joins: jwm_ (jwm@dev.dist.us)
# [20:29] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-154-19.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (*.net *.split)
# [20:29] * Quits: roc (~roc@121.98.230.221) (*.net *.split)
# [20:29] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.159.231) (*.net *.split)
# [20:29] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.158.129) (*.net *.split)
# [20:29] * Quits: gormer (~ghe@132.150.173.51) (*.net *.split)
# [20:29] * Quits: Peter` (~peter@82-204-83-135.fttx.bbeyond.nl) (*.net *.split)
# [20:29] * Quits: tyoshino (~tyoshino@220.109.219.244) (*.net *.split)
# [20:29] * Quits: TabAtkins (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-sltwpckqhctqohzj) (*.net *.split)
# [20:29] * Quits: jwm (jwm@dev.dist.us) (*.net *.split)
# [20:30] * Joins: gormer (~ghe@132.150.173.51)
# [20:30] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@32.173.66.190)
# [20:32] * Joins: TabAtkins (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-udurlrfbafwlgxmy)
# [20:38] * Quits: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-24-130-129-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [20:40] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@82.204.83.135)
# [20:40] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@tea04.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [20:40] * Joins: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-24-130-129-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [20:43] <variable> .
# [20:43] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@64.119.159.231)
# [20:43] <TabAtkins> .?
# [20:45] * Quits: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-97.uwaterloo.ca) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [20:45] <jgraham> .*
# [20:46] <TabAtkins> .{0,5}
# [20:46] <TabAtkins> Hello
# [20:46] * Joins: jjenzz (~Adium@5ac50955.bb.sky.com)
# [20:46] <jgraham> True
# [20:48] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-sgdibvwipnfndoqw)
# [20:50] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
# [20:55] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.19.143) (Quit: weinig)
# [20:59] * Quits: slartsa (~Lari@adsl-215-234-204.kymp.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:09] * Joins: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-97.uwaterloo.ca)
# [21:14] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.19.143)
# [21:17] * Joins: magcius_ (~jstpierre@unaffiliated/magcius)
# [21:18] * Quits: magcius (~jstpierre@unaffiliated/magcius) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [21:20] * Quits: erduschmann (~erlehmann@dslb-094-223-080-206.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
# [21:20] * Joins: cohitre (~cohitre@70.90.186.250)
# [21:21] * Parts: cohitre (~cohitre@70.90.186.250)
# [21:22] * Joins: cohitre (~cohitre@70.90.186.250)
# [21:24] * Quits: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
# [21:26] <TabAtkins> Today's surprising spellcheck list omission: "combinations".
# [21:26] <variable> TabAtkins: which speller checker?
# [21:27] <TabAtkins> Firefox on ubuntu.
# [21:27] * jwm_ is now known as jwm
# [21:29] <nielsle> Are webgl and notifications likely to become official html?
# [21:29] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [21:29] <TabAtkins> I know that Chrome either has them or is implementing them. Can't speak for other browsers.
# [21:31] <gsnedders> WebGL will remain a separate spec, and so will notifications
# [21:31] * Quits: variable (~93a12525@gateway/web/freenode/x-bmpgcfwahrprkfww) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [21:31] <gsnedders> It makes little sense to make them part of the HTML spec, IMO
# [21:31] <gsnedders> But I guess it's a question of what you mean by "official HTML"
# [21:32] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FB51.cable.ziggo.nl)
# [21:33] <nielsle> I meant html as defined by w3c, but I think that I got my answer.
# [21:34] * Joins: aho (~nya@e180234016.adsl.alicedsl.de)
# [21:53] * Joins: sebmarkbage (~miranda@h-70-237.A146.priv.bahnhof.se)
# [21:53] * Quits: maik|eat (~maikmerte@port-92-201-111-166.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [21:58] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.19.143) (Quit: weinig)
# [21:58] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [21:59] * Quits: peroo (~peroo@peroo.xen.prgmr.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [22:00] * Joins: gregw_ (~gregwilki@95.149.36.114)
# [22:00] * Quits: gregw_ (~gregwilki@95.149.36.114) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [22:01] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.244.6.41)
# [22:02] * Quits: gregw (~gregwilki@95.149.35.158) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [22:02] * Quits: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [22:06] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com) (Quit: davidb)
# [22:06] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@32.173.66.190) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [22:07] * Joins: Henrik`G (~hb@c83-249-67-192.bredband.comhem.se)
# [22:08] <jgraham> nielsle: WebGL is not being done at W3C. Noifications I'm not so sure about but only Google seem really interested at the moment
# [22:09] <jgraham> (WebGL is nevertheless becoming a standard; other standards organisations are avaliable, as they would say on the BBC)
# [22:11] * Joins: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
# [22:13] <nielsle> Thank you for the answers. (I am not an expert on all this, but I am not fully convinced that non-standard html is good thing.)
# [22:16] * gsnedders gets caught out by the fact that null does not equal anything in SQL
# [22:17] <TabAtkins> NULL IS NULL
# [22:17] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: Connection timed out)
# [22:17] <ment> badam bam tssss...
# [22:18] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Yeah, found that now
# [22:18] <Dashiva> Just like NaN isNaN()
# [22:20] <gsnedders> How do GROUP BY and joins interact?
# [22:20] <TabAtkins> GROUP BY applies to the joined table.
# [22:20] <TabAtkins> (Unless you've grouped in a subquery, of course.)
# [22:21] <gsnedders> Okay, so it is logical
# [22:21] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
# [22:23] * Quits: pmuellr (~pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-paoghxuclcmggvsr) (Quit: pmuellr)
# [22:24] * Quits: ROBOd_ (~robod@89.123.158.129) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
# [22:24] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.244.6.41) (Quit: weinig)
# [22:28] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.244.6.41)
# [22:32] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.137.94) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [22:32] * Quits: Martijnc_ (~martijn@91.176.137.94) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [22:32] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163)
# [22:41] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feba:cd0)
# [22:41] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feba:cd0) (Changing host)
# [22:41] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
# [22:41] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
# [22:41] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.244.6.41) (Quit: weinig)
# [22:42] * Parts: cohitre (~cohitre@70.90.186.250)
# [22:42] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [22:42] * Quits: aboodman (~aa@nat/google/x-bbyylsuxktdfipbw) (Quit: leaving)
# [22:43] * Joins: aroben_ (~aroben@17.246.18.249)
# [22:43] * Quits: aroben_ (~aroben@17.246.18.249) (Changing host)
# [22:43] * Joins: aroben_ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
# [22:44] * Joins: aboodman (~aa@nat/google/x-csdgstnzrurbukim)
# [22:45] <AryehGregor> Does Steve Jobs actually respond to a large fraction of the random mail he receives from the public?
# [22:46] <AryehGregor> Maybe it's just a press corps, but everyone seems to assume that the responses are actually from him.
# [22:47] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
# [22:48] <Philip`> AryehGregor: If Santa can reply to all the messages I send him, I'm sure Steve Jobs can
# [22:48] * Quits: aroben_ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: aroben_)
# [22:48] <TabAtkins> You think Santa doesn't have an elven press corps?
# [22:49] <Philip`> Of course not
# [22:49] <Philip`> Elves don't even exist
# [22:49] <TabAtkins> Oh ye of little Christmas faith...
# [22:49] <Philip`> It's just him and Rudolph
# [22:50] <TabAtkins> I have a folk song that clearly contradicts your assertion.
# [23:00] * Joins: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.62.136)
# [23:04] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~KaOSoFt@190.24.156.162)
# [23:05] * Joins: cying_ (~cying@173-164-164-4-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
# [23:07] * Quits: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [23:07] * cying_ is now known as cying
# [23:15] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.244.6.41)
# [23:17] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
# [23:17] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~KaOSoFt@190.24.156.162) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
# [23:21] * Parts: jjenzz (~Adium@5ac50955.bb.sky.com)
# [23:21] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.244.6.41) (Quit: weinig)
# [23:22] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feba:cd0)
# [23:22] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feba:cd0) (Changing host)
# [23:22] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
# [23:26] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
# [23:27] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.18.198)
# [23:34] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@1503032406.dhcp.dbnet.dk) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
# [23:35] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-d9cee455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [23:48] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@p2062-ipbf37marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
# [23:48] * Joins: daedb_ (~daed@78-72-108-100-no178.tbcn.telia.com)
# [23:51] * Quits: daedb (~daed@78-72-108-100-no178.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# Session Close: Wed Jun 02 00:00:00 2010

The end :)