/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-06-06 / end

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  65. # [07:36] <boblet> does anyone have an opinion on @aria-describedby and @aria-labelledby in regard to image fallback content (@alt text) and @longdesc?
  66. # [07:37] <boblet> I’m guessing that if the image performs a function @aria-labelledby is more appropriate, but otherwise @aria-describedby can be used for content that would have ended up in @alt or @longdesc…?
  67. # [07:41] <Hixie> it's hard to give a general guideline
  68. # [07:42] <Hixie> depends on the exact situation
  69. # [07:42] <Hixie> generally speaking if you write your markup correctly you don't need to use ARIA -- it's only really to be used when writing custom widgets that HTML doesn't support
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  71. # [07:55] <boblet> Hixie: I’m thinking about using these ARIA features as fallback until <figure> is supported by AT, the ‘belt and suspenders’ approach
  72. # [07:56] <boblet> (which sadly might take a while :/)
  73. # [07:57] <Hixie> a figure's caption is a "labelledby", but you still need alt text
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  75. # [07:57] <Hixie> they're separate issues
  76. # [07:57] <boblet> oh, just remembered img in figure must have alt text huh
  77. # [07:58] <boblet> thanks for the sanity check
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  85. # [08:32] <boblet> just came across a perfect description of a11y “Hic etiam homines magna cornua habentes longitudine quatuor pedum, et sunt etiam serpentes tante magnitudinis, ut unum bovem comedant integrum” on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_be_dragons
  86. # [08:32] <boblet> "Here, indeed, are men who have large horns of the length of four feet, and there are even serpents so large, that they could eat an ox whole."
  87. # [08:32] <boblet> eloquent *and* accurate
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  91. # [09:19] <boblet> is the difference between obsolete and ‘obsolete but conforming’ that one generates a validation error and the other a warning? Or is there something else?
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  94. # [09:39] <boblet> hixie: shouldn’t @headers be in http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html as obsolete, along with axis? want me to file a bug report?
  95. # [09:42] <boblet> also, no issue for axis/headers? wow
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  98. # [10:07] <boblet> Hixie: aah, woops. @headers were specced under td and th, and I was looking at table. my bad
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  169. # [17:20] <sgfgdf> hello, can someone tell me where should i start if i want to try learning HTML5?
  170. # [17:21] <micheil> sgfgdf: there is a good smashingmagazine article on it.
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  173. # [17:21] <micheil> (as much as smashing mag is normally cruddy, some articles are really good.)
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  175. # [17:26] <sgfgdf> micheil: i found something, hope it is what you are talking about. one more question - when you think html5 will be usable, i mean is it worth to start learning now or its to early? do you know when it should be released officialy?
  176. # [17:26] <micheil> it's usable now, with some work
  177. # [17:26] <micheil> html5shiv from what I've heard is good for backwards compat.
  178. # [17:26] <AryehGregor> sgfgdf, some features are usable now, some features will probably never be usable (they'll be cut from the spec and never re-added).
  179. # [17:27] <AryehGregor> It's a case-by-case thing, it's not going to become usable all at once.
  180. # [17:28] <sgfgdf> what are the major supported features far by now, that are usable?
  181. # [17:28] <micheil> depends on your definition of supported
  182. # [17:29] <AryehGregor> sgfgdf, caniuse.com
  183. # [17:29] <sgfgdf> micheil: i mean the last versions of the most popular browsers support.
  184. # [17:29] <micheil> sgfgdf: no idea.
  185. # [17:33] <sgfgdf> so if someone have a website and want to use html5 is it possible for him to detect if the user's browser supports it and send him the html5 code, and if not send him alternative, or less feature old way html?
  186. # [17:33] <micheil> no.
  187. # [17:34] <micheil> well, rather, it is possible, but it's the wrong approach.
  188. # [17:34] <sgfgdf> so what they do if the website is ery popular, but they want to use the new technologies? give the user a switch if he is sure that he owns capable browser?
  189. # [17:35] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-171-40-224.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  190. # [17:35] <sgfgdf> *very popular, sorry
  191. # [17:35] <AryehGregor> sgfgdf, you do graceful fallback. Basically as you said.
  192. # [17:35] <AryehGregor> Most HTML5 features support it.
  193. # [17:35] <AryehGregor> E.g., <video> with fallback to Flash or Java in non-supporting browsers.
  194. # [17:37] <sgfgdf> understand.
  195. # [17:37] <sgfgdf> thank you very much for the help guys.
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  197. # [17:39] <flox> hi
  198. # [17:40] <flox> I've some pain installing the html5 validator on Debian
  199. # [17:40] <flox> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/222569/
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  207. # [18:17] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, what do you think of this? tkent seems to disagree with me . . . http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=45804
  208. # [18:20] <boblet> sgfgdf: you might also want to try http://html5doctor.com and http://diveintohtml5.org
  209. # [18:21] <boblet> also, this interactive presentation is really good for getting an overview: http://apirocks.com/html5/html5.html
  210. # [18:23] <boblet> sgfgdf: finally here’s an overview of getting started I wrote: http://oli.jp/2009/html5-structure4/
  211. # [18:32] <sgfgdf> boblet: thank you, appreciate it.
  212. # [18:32] <boblet> np yo
  213. # [18:32] <boblet> if you have questions go for it. there’s normally someone around with time to answer
  214. # [18:34] <sgfgdf> boblet: yes, thanks again, btw are you from Japan?
  215. # [18:35] <boblet> I’m from New Zealand, but I live in Japan
  216. # [18:35] <sgfgdf> okay, i was just curious :).
  217. # [18:37] <boblet> np yo :)
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  219. # [18:40] <sgfgdf> i just didn't even thought how much novelty can bring just one digit - 5. this is amazing.
  220. # [18:42] <flox> any idea about the HTML5 validator on Debian Lenny? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/222569/
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  222. # [18:43] <flox> I followed the instructions, http://about.validator.nu/#src but no chance
  223. # [18:43] <boblet> flox: you prolly wanna talk to MikeSmith or hsivonen
  224. # [18:44] <boblet> dunno about hsivonen but mikesmith won’t be on for at least another 8 hours
  225. # [18:44] <boblet> and with that adieu
  226. # [18:44] <flox> ok, will try tomorrow :)
  227. # [18:44] <flox> good evening
  228. # [18:45] <boblet> coming on 2am for me ＞＿＜
  229. # [18:45] <boblet> nn
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  250. # [21:22] <drclue> Howdy all. The other day in my updates came Chrome 5.0.375.70 beta , and now none of my WebSocket server code works anymore. I've been trying to sort out what changes I need to make , but I'm a wee bit confused. Anyone got a moment to help me sort it out?
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  253. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> drclue, the Chrome WebSocket implementation recently changed incompatibly to match a new draft.
  254. # [21:33] <drclue> I've been fiddling about trying different combinations to see if I could get the WebSeockets working again, and for this conversation I've posted a copy of the request and response so folks can help me figure out what I need to change http://drclue.net/ws.html
  255. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> I'm not a WS expert, but I think the entire handshake changed.
  256. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> I could be wrong, though.
  257. # [21:35] <drclue> @AryehGregor Ya, I know it changed. I know that it's a spec in flux and I need to respond to it but everything is really vauge in the documentation I've found so far , so I'm just having a problem knowing what I'm supposed to be coding
  258. # [21:37] <drclue> Actually the bigger project I'm working is an HTML5 interface to the Asterisk VOIP PBX. Basically it goes HTML5 => WebSockets => Asterisk AMI => Asterisk. Everything was working great until the webSockets shifted out from under me, so all my work is stopped until I sort this thing out
  259. # [21:38] <Hixie> drclue: the documentation describing the new protocol is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-socket-protocol/
  260. # [21:38] <Hixie> specifically you want section 5
  261. # [21:44] <drclue> @Hixie I've been looking at that , and I'm still scratching my head a bit , as the request from the browser seems to be somewhat at odds with the documentation , or perhaps I'm just mis-reading something. I do have the request/response sample http://drclue.net/ws.html that simply reflects my banging my head , but is that request what I'm supposed to be seeing?
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  265. # [21:52] <drclue> The host and origin documentation definitions seem to be reversed as relates to the header fields the browser is sending me
  266. # [21:56] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.4)
  267. # [21:57] <drclue> The "host" field in the client request is including the port number , while the "origin" field is not including the port number. The documentation says that the "origin" field of the client request should have the port number
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  269. # [22:02] <drclue> @hixie Am I hallucinating , or does the dump from the chrome client's request not match the spec? hrrp://drclue.net/ws.html
  270. # [22:02] <Hixie> which port?
  271. # [22:03] <Hixie> both the stuff from the client and the stuff from the server look wrong on http://drclue.net/ws.html
  272. # [22:03] <Hixie> they're both missing the new handshake stuff
  273. # [22:03] <Hixie> like the key
  274. # [22:04] <Hixie> it should look more like: http://junkyard.damowmow.com/433
  275. # [22:04] <drclue> @hixi , I expect the server side to be wrong right now , as I've been messing with it trying to get a clue, but the request comes from chrome
  276. # [22:05] <Hixie> if that's what chrome is sending then either you have the wrong version of chrome or chrome is way wrong
  277. # [22:06] <drclue> @hixie Chrome 5.0.375.70 beta on Linux
  278. # [22:08] <drclue> I suppose the weird and obviously defective request as dumped from the socket chrome is calling on ,perhaps explains my confusion
  279. # [22:10] <Hixie> well chrome 6.0.422.0 dev on mac sends the right handshake for me
  280. # [22:12] <Hixie> and it works with my test server
  281. # [22:12] <drclue> I wonder why the request I'm getting is so out of whack? I still have my original handshake function that worked up until the upgrade , but my understanding is that when they did the upgrade they blew away the old handshake.
  282. # [22:14] <Hixie> maybe 5.0 is before the upgrade?
  283. # [22:14] <Hixie> does your old function still work?
  284. # [22:15] <drclue> @Hixi Nope , the old handshake died the second after the latest chrome update, so I'm in limbo
  285. # [22:16] <Hixie> weird
  286. # [22:16] <Hixie> switch to the dev builds instead of beta, i guess :-)
  287. # [22:16] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@64.1.211.1.ptr.us.xo.net)
  288. # [22:16] <drclue> I have a few of these WebSocket servers , just so I can verify that changes to code are not breaking things and so I can roll back changes
  289. # [22:18] <Hixie> bbiab
  290. # [22:19] <drclue> Dev builds , ouch! :) I'll have to think about that one.
  291. # [22:20] <drclue> At least I know that I have not gone insane (least not more than I already am)
  292. # [22:21] <drclue> I had invented at least 30 new cuss words in the past day or so
  293. # [22:26] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  294. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> Well, it's an experimental protocol. :)
  295. # [22:40] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
  296. # [22:40] <ment> drclue: such as? :)
  297. # [22:41] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@64.1.211.1.ptr.us.xo.net) (Read error: Connection timed out)
  298. # [22:42] <drclue> @AryehGregor I know , and I'm not bitching that much, but the situation really had me wondering if I had totally lost it. @ment In order for you to properly read the cuss words I would have to cut your eyes out :)
  299. # [22:42] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@64.1.211.1.ptr.us.xo.net)
  300. # [22:44] <drclue> It's not so bad. I have some other code to work on that has been sitting on the back burner, and I'm sure that a new cut of the browser will have things back on the road soon
  301. # [22:44] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
  302. # [22:47] <drclue> I've been getting a kick out of the HTML5 context , and actually making money with it , which is a pretty good deal
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  304. # [22:49] <ment> well i've invented few cuss words myself, but they can only be written in runes (ancient, not utf-8) and when spoken, everyone who heard starts caughing blood and spiders
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  306. # [22:51] <drclue> The last big cuss seems to have resulted in a three story building sinking down into a void in the earth
  307. # [22:51] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@64.1.211.1.ptr.us.xo.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  308. # [22:52] <drclue> Then somebody married Rush Limbaugh , I was cussin pretty good then too
  309. # [22:54] <drclue> A cuss that causes someone to marry Rush, gotta be far worse than relative benign blood and spiders
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  316. # [23:06] <drclue> One thing that would be sorta neat for WebSockets is a server mode with of course all the "Are you sure" boxes and perhaps a requirement that the code using those sockets be located on the local machine
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  318. # [23:07] <Hixie> what do you mean?
  319. # [23:07] <drclue> @hixie It would be sorta neat to have other clients connect to my browser
  320. # [23:08] <Hixie> search for PeerConnection in the HTML spec on the WHATWG site
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  322. # [23:08] <Hixie> still extremely early days, but the idea is there
  323. # [23:14] <drclue> @hixie Sorta interesting. Have to see how that pans out
  324. # [23:17] <drclue> Could end up being some wild applications if millions of browsers were collectively participating
  325. # [23:19] <Dashiva> PeerConnection + File system access = Bittorrent? :)
  326. # [23:19] <drclue> Please , no file system acess
  327. # [23:19] <Dashiva> It's already in the works
  328. # [23:20] <Dashiva> Restricted, obviously
  329. # [23:21] <drclue> While I like the idea of a WebTorrent , those restrictions would really need to be well thought out to keep the HTML5 context from becoming the bad side of Flash.
  330. # [23:21] <Dashiva> The time to get involved and make sure that doesn't happen is right now :)
  331. # [23:23] <drclue> Well , I have registered over at the w3.org , so we'll just have to see how long that takes to go through. I do like the idea of exploiting torrent clients for design concepts in communications
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  336. # [23:50] <drclue> @hixie In 6.3.4. TCP connections is there a logic typo in the port range definition for TCPConnection()?
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The end :)