/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-06-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jun 08 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  21. # [00:41] <Hixie> christ
  22. # [00:41] <Hixie> the a11y community sure write bad alt text
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  24. # [00:49] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: I find that too. Which is very surprising. Good alt text is ridiculously easy if you know wtf you're doing.
  25. # [00:50] * TabAtkins_ doesn't get why anyone ever has issues with it, but they do for some reason, so shrug.
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  27. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> Because normal people have no reason to learn how to write good alt text, because they have so few blind users that it makes no practical difference to them.
  28. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> HTML cannot mandate solutions contrary to economics.
  29. # [00:51] <TabAtkins_> I've found that good alt text has been helpful for me personally. I spent quite a while with a broken image once, frex, on a page that I read fairly regularly, because the alt-text was so good that I didn't notice it was broken.
  30. # [00:52] * TabAtkins_ supposes it's kind of weird that he considers it helpful that it hid the existence of a broken image.
  31. # [00:52] <TabAtkins_> I only found out about it when I made my 404 page start emailing me.
  32. # [00:53] <AryehGregor> Just because there are isolated cases where it worked well doesn't mean that it would have been worth the effort to learn how, if you weren't involved in standards anyway.
  33. # [00:53] <AryehGregor> (so that you need the knowledge for non-authoring purposes)
  34. # [00:54] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins_, oh, right, I meant to ask you -- actually, I did ask you -- could you look at this, since you're a Chromium person and all? http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=45804
  35. # [00:54] <TabAtkins_> True, I acquired the knowledge because of involvement in standards, but my point is that it's *very easy* knowledge. It takes less than 5 minutes to learn. This makes it even worse that some of the a11y people can't do it right in their examples, at least.
  36. # [00:57] <AryehGregor> It might take less than five minutes to learn how to do it, but people won't learn it anyway unless there's obvious and immediate benefit.
  37. # [00:57] <AryehGregor> Most people don't formally learn HTML at all, they just imitate existing use and maybe read some tutorials or skim a book.
  38. # [00:58] <AryehGregor> If it looks right to them, then it's good enough.
  39. # [00:59] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, I know that. I'm specifically complaining about a11y people, though.
  40. # [00:59] <TabAtkins_> And their bad examples.
  41. # [01:00] <AryehGregor> Probably people who do use alt don't bother to learn the correct way because they think they already know it.
  42. # [01:00] <AryehGregor> Then it doesn't matter how easy it is to learn.
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  44. # [01:01] <AryehGregor> I'm wondering who the a11y people at the W3C are. Are they mostly people who have professional expertise, like working with blind people on a regular basis (or being blind)?
  45. # [01:01] <AryehGregor> I suppose I could try Google-stalking a bunch of them, but I'm too lazy.
  46. # [01:01] <AryehGregor> Also, I don't really care.
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  48. # [01:03] <AryehGregor> Hi, dglazkov! Do you have any thoughts on <http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=45804>?
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  53. # [01:08] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: I think that a lot of them are disabled or work closely with the disabled.
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  56. # [01:18] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i use text browsers often enough that for me it's actually an issue when alt text isn't good
  57. # [01:19] <volkmar> Hixie: ping
  58. # [01:22] <Hixie> pong
  59. # [01:22] <Hixie> anyone know what the mimetype for truetype fonts is?
  60. # [01:23] <Philip`> My /etc/mime.types says application/x-font-ttf
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  64. # [01:29] <hober> there's no officially defined ones, IIRC
  65. # [01:29] <hober> though I've seen people pushing font/ttf, font/otf, font/eot, and font/woff lately
  66. # [01:30] <volkmar> Hixie: could i have your opinion about @autocomplete related bugs ?
  67. # [01:31] <volkmar> just to know if i should go on the direction of bug 9637 or you have a big reason to refuse
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  69. # [01:31] <Hixie> given how much people push mime you'd think they would maintain the registry so that this kind of thing was easy to answer
  70. # [01:31] <Hixie> it's not like fonts are rare or something
  71. # [01:32] <Hixie> volkmar: which bug system? mozilla, webkit, w3c...?
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  73. # [01:32] <volkmar> Hixie: w3c
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  77. # [01:33] <Hixie> volkmar: i expect we can't change the autocomplete stuff, it's been implemented for more than a decade now
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  82. # [01:35] <volkmar> Hixie: i thought autocomplete IDL attribute has been introduced with html5
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  84. # [01:36] <Hixie> volkmar: IE6 didn't distinguish between IDL and content attributes
  85. # [01:41] <volkmar> Hixie: hmmm, is that really a blocker ?
  86. # [01:41] <Hixie> i dunno
  87. # [01:41] <Hixie> if we want to change it though we have to prove it's not a problem to change it, because with something that old, the safest guess is that it's impossible to change
  88. # [01:42] <volkmar> the only real difference that would happen between @autocomplete and .autocomplete is when @autocomplete is not set or set to an invalid value
  89. # [01:43] <volkmar> i doesn't sound really critic, does it ?
  90. # [01:43] * Hixie points to the /topic
  91. # [01:43] <volkmar> Hixie: ok
  92. # [01:44] <Hixie> the web is a weird palce
  93. # [01:44] <Hixie> place
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  95. # [01:44] <Hixie> people do all kinds of things we don't expect
  96. # [01:44] <Hixie> seriously though, unless there's a really important reason to worry about it, i would recommend not touching it
  97. # [01:45] <volkmar> Hixie: btw, who/what should use autocomplete except UAs ?
  98. # [01:45] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  99. # [01:45] <Hixie> it's most commonly used by banks
  100. # [01:45] <Hixie> google.com uses it too
  101. # [01:46] <volkmar> Hixie: sorry, i wasn't clear
  102. # [01:46] <volkmar> i mean, websites _sets_ autocomplete, the value is for the UA, right ?
  103. # [01:47] <Hixie> yes
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  105. # [01:47] <volkmar> then the web shouldn't care about what .autocomplete returns
  106. # [01:47] <volkmar> ... or that's still too much thinking about the wild web
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  108. # [01:48] <Hixie> who knows
  109. # [01:49] <Hixie> people do crazy things
  110. # [01:49] <Hixie> often without good reason
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  121. # [02:04] <ttepasse> Hm. The new reader feature in HTML 5 rearranges the hX in hgroup.
  122. # [02:07] <TabAtkins_> reader feature?
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  124. # [02:08] <ttepasse> TabAtkins, like the readability-Bookmarklet: http://www.apple.com/safari/whats-new.html#reader
  125. # [02:09] <TabAtkins_> Ah, I see.
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  136. # [02:40] <karlcow> you will have to love the marketing machine
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  138. # [02:40] <karlcow> HTML 4.01 Support
  139. # [02:40] <karlcow> "Safari supports HTML 4.01, the authoring language that defines the structure and layout of web documents."
  140. # [02:40] <karlcow> -- http://www.apple.com/safari/features.html
  141. # [02:42] <Rik`> karlcow: the whole release feel rushed
  142. # [02:42] <Rik`> this is basically the same page as yesterday
  143. # [02:43] <karlcow> and they still didn't fix the page about html5 and web standards
  144. # [02:43] <karlcow> maybe maciej is fencing with marketing dept in Apple corridors
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  146. # [02:46] <karlcow> safari 5 install 140,2 Mo of "things" and I would have to restart the computer… hmmm then later.
  147. # [02:48] <karlcow> wooot!
  148. # [02:48] <AryehGregor> Programs that make you restart the computer are lame. What are they doing, installing drivers?
  149. # [02:48] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-address-element
  150. # [02:49] <karlcow> "The address element represents the contact information for its nearest article or body element ancestor."
  151. # [02:49] <Rik`> AryehGregor: updating the webkit framework
  152. # [02:49] <karlcow> http://developer.apple.com/safari/library/documentation/AppleApplications/Reference/SafariHTMLRef/Articles/HTMLTags.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/30001262-SW2
  153. # [02:49] <karlcow> address
  154. # [02:49] <karlcow> Specifies a street address.
  155. # [02:49] <karlcow> ????
  156. # [02:50] <karlcow> top of the document: "Safari and WebKit implement a large subset of the HTML 5 Specification defined by the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)."
  157. # [02:50] <AryehGregor> I can do stuff like that on Linux without restarting. Just unlink the files, make the new ones, and hope that if everything gets seriously messed up the user intelligently restarts anyway.
  158. # [02:50] <AryehGregor> At least, I get the impression that's what apt-get upgrade does. Seems to work pretty well, generally.
  159. # [02:50] <AryehGregor> Of course, you've got to restart whatever programs were updated.
  160. # [02:51] <karlcow> the HTML reference of Apple is quite funky and will do a lot of bad
  161. # [02:51] <karlcow> cite
  162. # [02:51] <karlcow> Specifies a citation.
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  164. # [02:51] <AryehGregor> :/
  165. # [02:51] <AryehGregor> They should just cite HTML5 verbatim.
  166. # [02:54] <karlcow> at least put a link to the spec for each element
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  168. # [02:55] <GPHemsley> what does Safari 5's support for the HTML5 elements
  169. # [02:55] <GPHemsley> ...consist of?
  170. # [02:55] <GPHemsley> err, lemme try that again
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  172. # [02:55] <GPHemsley> what does Safari 5's support for the new HTML5 elements consist of?
  173. # [02:56] <karlcow> GPHemsley: see http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100608#l-147
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  178. # [03:00] <karlcow> Apple-Specific Meta Tag Keys
  179. # [03:00] <karlcow> http://developer.apple.com/safari/library/documentation/AppleApplications/Reference/SafariHTMLRef/Articles/MetaTags.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40008193-SW1
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  195. # [03:49] <MikeSmith> I'm trying to write up an explanation of the motivation behind the various proposals to add a binary data type to Javascript
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  199. # [05:50] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  200. # [05:50] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  213. # [07:08] <boblet> anyone know how Safari5 is implementing Reader? seems given their HTML5 sectioning element support it should use <article> if present, but it’s only using first <section> inside <article> for me
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  215. # [07:11] <boblet> wonder if the article needs role="main" or something, or if it’s just broken
  216. # [07:14] <ttepasse> It uses some strange heuristics. On one site it regroups the hX inside an hgroup.
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  219. # [07:29] <boblet> so much for their new! support for these elements :/
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  222. # [07:31] <boblet> http://www.focus.com/images/view/11905/ “WTF is HTML5?”
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  224. # [07:39] <aboodman> MikeSmith: what seems bad about magic iframe?
  225. # [07:40] <aboodman> MikeSmith: the fact that you have the same name as a PM on chromium is weirding me out.
  226. # [07:41] <aboodman> just fyi
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  229. # [07:47] <hsivonen> boblet: where did they pull the readiness percentages? seems questionable that Chrome's readiness is so much higher than Safari's in particular.
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  231. # [07:48] <boblet> hsivonen: small text at the bottom lists caniuse and wikipedia. I wonder if the landscape has shifted since they made it
  232. # [07:49] <boblet> bug filed for Safari Radar. I hear through the twitters that it does something wack with titles in hgroup too (yet to verify)
  233. # [07:49] <boblet> s/Safari Radar/Safari Reader/
  234. # [07:50] <ttepasse> Boblet, an example for the hgroup thingy: http://jeena.net/brother
  235. # [07:52] <boblet> ttepasse: thanks. woah, that’s bizarro
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  248. # [08:25] <boblet> hsivonen: I enjoyed your http://hsivonen.iki.fi/-webkit-html5/ article. another problem is it’s hard for authors to know what vendor prefixes to add. is there a resource listing what CSS things have vendor prefixes? if not can we set a wiki up somewhere?
  249. # [08:25] * Joins: slartsa (~Lari@adsl-215-234-204.kymp.net)
  250. # [08:29] <boblet> hsivonen: also you might want to mention in the conclusion that for bits of the spec that are implemented the same way using vendor prefixes by more than one browser it’s good to add the non-prefixed version too, for future support.
  251. # [08:29] <boblet> bbl
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  256. # [08:48] <hsivonen> boblet: adding the non-prefixed version (which I do on my site) defeats the point of prefixes, too
  257. # [08:49] <hsivonen> boblet: since it creates a body of legacy content that assumes that standardized syntax works the same as the initial prefixed syntax
  258. # [08:50] <hsivonen> boblet: as I see it, the only real solution is to speed up the process from having two implementations to the point where the prefix is removed and the CSS WG agrees not to bikeshed the feature anymore
  259. # [08:51] <hsivonen> boblet: and to make that happen, vendors should be required to contribute sufficient editor time to the CSS WG when they come up with a CSS extension
  260. # [08:51] <hsivonen> boblet: but there's no way to enforce such a person-time contribution rule
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  272. # [09:31] <jgraham> TabAtkins_: The a11y people seem to have rather different ideas about what constitues ideal alt text. For example they seem to assume that the user should be informed that there is an image, and get a description of the image. Having the page work as if there were no images in the first place doesn't seem to be a goal
  273. # [09:31] <jgraham> It would be interesting to test what is most helpful to actual users
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  276. # [09:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: the "a11y people" aren't a unified "they" on this point
  277. # [09:39] <jgraham> hsivonen: Fiar enough
  278. # [09:39] <jgraham> *Fair
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  280. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I seem to be running into a problem with the v.nu servlet output... Is there some character limit on the length of error messages it will emit?
  281. # [09:41] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: of an individual error message? I can't recall.
  282. # [09:41] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: is this in Jetty or in Jigsaw?
  283. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> Jetty
  284. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> running locally from my workspace
  285. # [09:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: how does the problem manifest itself?
  286. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: If I validate a certain file directly from the command-line with Jing, I get the following error message:
  287. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> http://paste.plurk.com/show/267869/
  288. # [09:44] <jgraham> TabAtkins_: I'm not sure I agree it's easy either. For example I don't see the value of Hixie's alt text for the Blammo Corp example
  289. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> but if I try it with my local v.nu install, I get "error: " but with no message text
  290. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> but I do get the line number info and markup fragment
  291. # [09:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: and does the rest of the result page show up?
  292. # [09:44] <hsivonen> ok
  293. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah
  294. # [09:45] <Hixie> jgraham: it's not clear to me that there's much value in making that kind of image accessible either
  295. # [09:45] <hsivonen> I'm suspecting a bug in the code that formats the message
  296. # [09:45] <jgraham> TabAtkins_: Whatever the photograph is trying to communicate, it is not "Our CEO is tall and has brown hair and a moustache"
  297. # [09:45] <Hixie> jgraham: my argument was not that my suggestion made it useful, but that it made it accessible
  298. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK, I can play around it some more and see if I can figure anything out on my own
  299. # [09:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: is that an actual alt text?
  300. # [09:46] <jgraham> hsivonen: No, it is a hypothetical one
  301. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: fwiw, I get no indication of a problem on the console log from v.nu
  302. # [09:46] <jgraham> Hixie: I think that is too reductionist a viewpoint
  303. # [09:46] <jgraham> I don't think you can say "is this image accessible"
  304. # [09:46] <jgraham> Only "is this content accessible"
  305. # [09:46] <jgraham> where content === whole page, typically
  306. # [09:47] <Hixie> jgraham: well that's as may be, but bruce was applying it to the figure, which is what i applied it to
  307. # [09:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070927#l-332
  308. # [09:47] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  309. # [09:48] <jgraham> Hixie: I think my point is that the thread is trying to look at <figure>s in isolation, which is a silly thing to do
  310. # [09:48] <Hixie> jgraham: personally i'd be fine with not making the photograph accessible, since it's almost certainly purely decorative in context, but we shouldn't pretend that that means it's accessible
  311. # [09:48] <Hixie> jgraham: couldn't agree more
  312. # [09:48] <jgraham> hsivonen: Indeed
  313. # [09:48] <jgraham> :)
  314. # [09:54] <Hixie> (i'd omit the alt attribute in the case)
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  318. # [10:01] * svl_ is now known as svl
  319. # [10:02] <boblet> translation q: can anyone guess at what this means in English? “the pashto number in list taq” I’ve got list taq prolly being <li>, but have no idea what pashto might be
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  323. # [10:03] <Hixie> Pashto is another name for the Afghani language
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  325. # [10:05] <boblet> Hixie: you’re a scholar and a gentleman. will check CSS language support for list counters
  326. # [10:06] <boblet> aah GIYF (although it’s GIMF this time)
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  331. # [10:10] <Hixie> boblet: wish i could claim credit... i just typed "pashto" into google and read the first hit (wikipedia) :-)
  332. # [10:10] <Andros> Semantic question: what sets a heading apart from a dt? The dt is defined as a term part of a term-description group. But isn't also a heading in a way a term, describing the content that follows it?
  333. # [10:11] <Hixie> Andros: you wouldn't put the terms of a term-description group into a book's table of contents
  334. # [10:11] <Hixie> Andros: and you wouldn't put the headings of a book into its index
  335. # [10:11] <hsivonen> Andros: the expectation is that headings appear in an outline but dts don't
  336. # [10:11] <boblet> Hixie: still drinking coffee so am apparently a little slow on the Google, but I’m now reading CSS3 Lists which you edited :)
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  344. # [10:11] <Hixie> boblet: :-)
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  347. # [10:17] <Andros> hsivonen & hixie: I think I see what you're meaning.
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  350. # [10:23] * jgraham wonders if he is the only person trying not to respond to "what is not possible in HTML5" with "faster than light travel"
  351. # [10:24] <gsnedders> But what if the bits used by HTML5 have no mass?
  352. # [10:24] <Hixie> jgraham: has that thread gotten in need of some gardening?
  353. # [10:24] <Hixie> i haven't been paying close attention...
  354. # [10:24] <Hixie> gsnedders: you'd need negative mass to get faster than light
  355. # [10:24] * gsnedders is around a month behind on email
  356. # [10:24] <Hixie> (which doesn't make much sense)
  357. # [10:24] <gsnedders> Hixie: Ah, true. Duh.
  358. # [10:24] * Hixie hopes he's remembering his relativity maths well enough
  359. # [10:25] <gsnedders> You are.
  360. # [10:25] <gsnedders> (I think. jgraham will now say we're both wrong.)
  361. # [10:26] <jgraham> No, once you get down to zero mass things get "interesting" but you can't travel faster than light
  362. # [10:27] <jgraham> (light itself has zero rest mass for example)
  363. # [10:27] <gsnedders> Surely it therefore also has zero relativisty mass for all values of v?
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  366. # [10:28] <hsivonen> and antimatter has still positive mass?
  367. # [10:28] <jgraham> Yes
  368. # [10:28] * jgraham should point out the implied "in a vacuum")
  369. # [10:28] <jgraham> (since you can travel faster than light in a non-vacuum)
  370. # [10:28] <Hixie> negative mass is basically a meaningless concept like time before the big bang, if i'm not mistaken
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  372. # [10:29] * gsnedders doesn't care about places apart from in a vacnuum on a frictionless bench
  373. # [10:29] * hsivonen is reminded of xkdc with physicists in a frictionless vacuum
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  376. # [10:30] <Hixie> that xkcd is such a lie
  377. # [10:30] <Hixie> the professor and the laptop would both more or less disintegrate if friction was zero
  378. # [10:30] <gsnedders> http://xkcd.com/669/
  379. # [10:31] * Hixie notes it's basically the first hit on google for "xkdc with physicists in a frictionless vacuum" [sic], and thus not hard to find :-P
  380. # [10:31] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-173-0.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  381. # [10:31] * gsnedders may have done that
  382. # [10:33] <jgraham> Hixie: I think you are assuming a particular way of changing the laws of physics
  383. # [10:34] <Hixie> a way that doesn't involve changing the laws of biology and engineering? :-)
  384. # [10:35] * gsnedders notes his sister and niece have vanished
  385. # [10:35] * gsnedders wonders when they'll return home
  386. # [10:36] * Parts: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  387. # [10:38] <gsnedders> And I was expecting, the moment I said that, they come back.
  388. # [10:38] <gsnedders> It worked!
  389. # [10:38] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@h-112-7.A163.corp.bahnhof.se)
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  392. # [10:47] <gsnedders> I tell my niece off for reaching for a wine bottle and now she looks scared of me.
  393. # [10:48] * Joins: Phae (~Phae@chimera.macmillan.com)
  394. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://www.w3.org/html/check?doc=https%3A%2F%2Feyeasme.com%2FJoe%2FMathML%2FHTML5%2Fextras.xhtml&showsource=yes
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  396. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: above shows the error-message-missing problem I was describing earlier
  397. # [10:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I suggest stepping through the message formatter in a debugger
  398. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> ok
  399. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: bt, I notice also that the error is caused by the fact that he has an <annotation-xml> element as the first/only child of <semantics> element
  400. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> the MathML 2.0 DTD and the existing MathML 2.0 schema that v.nu is using seem to consider that valid
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  404. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> but the MathML 3.0 schema and the MathML 2.0 one that I'm testing with, which is generated from that, consider it invalid
  405. # [10:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: parser bugs or spec bugs are possible, too, as causes for the messages
  406. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> OK
  407. # [10:58] * hsivonen steps away to perform accounting rituals
  408. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, what I have on http://www.w3.org/html/check right now is the generated MathML 2.0 schema that David Carlisle provided
  409. # [10:59] * gsnedders wants a good feed reader for OS X that actually manages to resolve URLs properly
  410. # [10:59] <gsnedders> and has a simple UI.
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  416. # [11:28] <jgraham> (FWIW I think that SteveF's point about the definition of <figure> is reasonable)
  417. # [11:28] <jgraham> (a figure is just a piece of content with a caption)
  418. # [11:28] <Hixie> file a bug
  419. # [11:29] <Hixie> if there's a bug
  420. # [11:29] <gsnedders> If there's a bug, file one?
  421. # [11:29] <gsnedders> Huh?
  422. # [11:29] * gsnedders thinks there's some missing negative here
  423. # [11:29] <Hixie> if there's a problem, file an entry into the database
  424. # [11:29] <jgraham> gsnedders: It made sense to me
  425. # [11:30] <gsnedders> Oh, I thought you meant if there was a bug, file a duplicate.
  426. # [11:30] <gsnedders> Not if a bug exists
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  442. # [12:48] * annevk would have expected at least some discussion on http://www.w3.org/QA/2010/06/xhtml_modularization_a_markup.html
  443. # [12:51] <jgraham> annevk: Not sure what you would say really
  444. # [12:52] <hsivonen> annevk: It's interesting that one of the most important technologies of 2001 is only a way of writing schemas
  445. # [12:52] <annevk> anything from "joy" to "who cares" I suppose
  446. # [12:53] <annevk> but I think that blog post is a justification for them continuing to publish XHTML Modularization crap without testing it in actual user agents
  447. # [12:53] <hsivonen> annevk: sure
  448. # [12:54] <annevk> despite the problems pointed out
  449. # [12:54] <hsivonen> the timing may have something to do with the PER still being in the limbo: not publicly transitioned to REC nor rejected as a Note.
  450. # [12:55] * Joins: othree (~othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw)
  451. # [12:55] <hsivonen> If it were clearly REC-worthy, there wouldn't be a need to post justifications like that, and the Director probably would already have approved the transition to REC.
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  453. # [13:00] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2010AprJun/0049.html
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  455. # [13:00] <hsivonen> (sorry about the link to secret stuff)
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  457. # [13:03] <annevk> anyone here planning to go to Maastricht end of July?
  458. # [13:03] <annevk> IETF has a meeting
  459. # [13:03] <annevk> should not be too hard to plan my as-of-yet non-existing vacation plans around the meeting and attend
  460. # [13:04] <hsivonen> http://www.apple.com/safari/whats-new.html#html5
  461. # [13:04] <annevk> though I'm not too thrilled about going either (apart from visiting Maastricht, it's quite nice) as the IETF meetings I attended over the phone have been nothing but utter boredom
  462. # [13:04] <hsivonen> is there documentation on how Safari supports closed captions?
  463. # [13:05] <nessy> do they?
  464. # [13:05] <Lachy> I love how they blatantly admit that "XHTML Modularization is not [...] implemented in browsers"
  465. # [13:05] <hsivonen> nessy: claimed at the URL I just pasted
  466. # [13:05] <Lachy> (I realise that's quote mining, but still funny)
  467. # [13:05] <annevk> I suppose they support whatever closed captions H264 supports
  468. # [13:05] <nessy> I would assume it's only those that come from within MPEG-4
  469. # [13:06] <nessy> as annevk says :)
  470. # [13:06] * hsivonen notes that the URL also links to the "HTML5" demos that actually demo WebKit-specific CSS features
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  472. # [13:06] <annevk> nessy, I guess you're more correct, as H264 is just the video stream :)
  473. # [13:07] <Lachy> My guess is that Safari will support whatever caption formats that QuickTime supports
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  475. # [13:07] <nessy> IIRC that would then be decoded by quicktime and probably rendered by quicktime, too
  476. # [13:07] <Lachy> it's kind of a shame how they're going ahead with their own caption formats now, rather than waiting for WebSRT
  477. # [13:07] * hsivonen was interested in actual docs/demos
  478. # [13:07] <nessy> we should just ask Eric
  479. # [13:08] <nessy> Lachy: I don't think it covers external caption formats, so it doesn't mean anything for WebSRT
  480. # [13:08] <hsivonen> It seems that the Decision Process is useless for actually putting ISSUEs behind us and moving on.
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  483. # [13:10] <nessy> what Decision Process?
  484. # [13:10] <Lachy> nessy, the HTML WG formal decision process
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  488. # [13:11] <nessy> ah, I thought we were talking WHATWG
  489. # [13:11] <nessy> I do miss the email discussion of WebSRT a bit - might still be ahead of us
  490. # [13:11] <Lachy> the one that is seemingly only good at letting people drag issues on forever, despite supposedly coming to WG decisions
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  492. # [13:13] <annevk> nessy, it's not finished yet
  493. # [13:13] <nessy> ah cool - I've totally lost touch in the last weeks - too busy with other stuff
  494. # [13:13] <annevk> (as in, the first draft)
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  497. # [13:14] * jgraham notes that the whole everything-is-HTML5 thing is the unexpectedly sour taste of victory (to quote Green Wing), so it's probably not worth getting to upset about
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  503. # [13:26] <Lachy> jgraham, can it really be considered a victory when what people are referring to as being HTML5, pretty much includes everything but what acutally is HTML5, with few exceptions?
  504. # [13:28] <Lachy> HTML5 as just become the new term that replaces terms like DHTML and AJAX
  505. # [13:28] <hsivonen> Lachy: Safari 5 does better by supporting "HTML5 AJAX history" :-)
  506. # [13:28] <Lachy> haha
  507. # [13:32] <Lachy> hmm. They also claim to support article, section, etc. But they don't support the proper heading level algorithm, so that's really only a half truth.
  508. # [13:32] <jgraham> Lachy: That's not really true. We have the two biggest tech brands on the planet fighting to leverage the mindshare that HTML5 has. Compare to http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200705/help_keep_accessibility_and_semantics_in_html/
  509. # [13:33] <jgraham> If going from "you might be better off not using HTML5" to Apple trying to make anything and everything "HTML5" because it has such positive assosiations isn't victory I don't know what you were expecting
  510. # [13:34] <jgraham> s/Apple/Apple and Google/
  511. # [13:36] <Lachy> Sure, it's great that they're promoting HTML5, but it would be better if they would use the proper terminology for things that aren't in HTML5 instead of lumping it all together
  512. # [13:36] <Philip`> jgraham: Marketing isn't victory
  513. # [13:36] <jgraham> Lachy: Indeed. Like I said, the unepectedly sour taste of victory.
  514. # [13:36] <Philip`> I guess victory is having good technology and having lots of people use it (and marketing just helps with the latter)
  515. # [13:37] <jgraham> Philip`: On the classic scale of "First they ignore you, then they fight you, then you win", we are past "then they fight you"
  516. # [13:37] <hsivonen> jgraham: do you count XHTML-as-text/html as a victory for XML?
  517. # [13:39] <jgraham> hsivonen: Maybe a pyrrhic victory
  518. # [13:39] <Philip`> jgraham: I don't think everyone would agree with that scale - e.g. everyone who's been in a fight and then lost
  519. # [13:40] <Lachy> jgraham, I would be more comfortable calling it a victory if the things that apple were promoting as HTML5 were actually widely interoperable, rather than including things like h.264/AAC video/audio, CSS 3D Transforms, etc.
  520. # [13:42] <zcorpan_> i wonder how safari decides that a page is an 'article' and enables the Reader button
  521. # [13:42] <Lachy> and if their demos for features that are more interoperable, like WebFonts and CSS transitiosn, actually functioned in other browsers
  522. # [13:43] <hsivonen> Is Apple supporting WOFF yet?
  523. # [13:43] <Rik`> zcorpan_: apparently : http://idzr.org/ah242k
  524. # [13:44] <annevk> not many changes anymore to HTML5 based on what I had to write down for html5-diff
  525. # [13:44] <hsivonen> Rik`: is it only <div> or <article>, too?
  526. # [13:45] <hsivonen> it would be a bit sad to advertise support for <article> but not to support that feature for <article>
  527. # [13:45] <Lachy> I'm not sure. I just assumed their typography demo was using webfonts http://www.apple.com/html5/showcase/typography/
  528. # [13:45] <Rik`> hsivonen: don't know
  529. # [13:45] <Lachy> I didn't look at the source yet
  530. # [13:45] <hsivonen> Lachy: always look at the source
  531. # [13:45] <Lachy> hsivonen, that takes time
  532. # [13:45] <Lachy> I was lazy
  533. # [13:45] <hsivonen> Lachy: they have the fonts in multiple formats
  534. # [13:47] * hsivonen wishes Apple added WOFF and TTF support to iOS to put make the need to use SVG fonts moot
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  537. # [13:48] <Lachy> oh, interesting. They've added EOT, TTF, WOFF and SVG fonts, and yet still decided to make the demo Safari only.
  538. # [13:49] * hsivonen suspects there are at least two different theys at work at Apple
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  540. # [13:50] <annevk> they support EOT? oh god
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  543. # [13:50] <hsivonen> annevk: in the demo
  544. # [13:50] <hsivonen> annevk: but they block IE from accessing it
  545. # [13:50] <annevk> oh, I thought to Safari
  546. # [13:54] <Lachy> have Microsoft announced which formats they will support in IE9? I assume they'll keep EOT. Will they add WOFF, TTF or OTF?
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  549. # [13:58] <zcorpan_> Rik`: interesting. they claim to also support multipage articles
  550. # [13:58] <Rik`> zcorpan_: and they do. it's really well done
  551. # [13:59] <Rik`> that reminds me the fast forward feature of Opera
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  553. # [13:59] <Rik`> zcorpan_: http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/06/safari-5-faster-less-clutter-secure-browser-extensions.ars
  554. # [14:01] <hsivonen> whoa? you need to join a developer program to make extensions?
  555. # [14:01] <hsivonen> how different are Safari extensions from Chrome extensions?
  556. # [14:02] <Rik`> hsivonen: I'm not sure you need to join the developer program if you distribute them yourself
  557. # [14:02] <hsivonen> I guess Tiger is now clearly EOLed
  558. # [14:03] <Rik`> there is Safari 4.1 for Tiger, so not that dead
  559. # [14:03] <hsivonen> It still annoys me that Apple never says when a Mac OS X release is EOLed
  560. # [14:03] <Lachy> hsivonen, the update in that article says you can get extensions from 3rd party sites too. So no AppStore-like lock in
  561. # [14:03] <hsivonen> Rik`: whoa!
  562. # [14:03] <hsivonen> Rik`: so they now update the browser but no longer provide security patches for the OS?
  563. # [14:04] <hsivonen> is it documented anywhere that the advertised Safari features don't work on Windows unless the user chooses the Safari+QuickTime download option?
  564. # [14:04] <hsivonen> is providing the non-QuickTime download an antitrust thing?
  565. # [14:05] <Lachy> presumably, if you already have QuickTime installed, you don't need to get it again
  566. # [14:05] <Rik`> hsivonen: Safari 4.1 is apparently just an updated webkit version plus some security fixes afaict
  567. # [14:06] <Rik`> hsivonen: for Safari vs Chrome extensions http://developer.apple.com/safari/library/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/SafariExtensionsConversionGuide/
  568. # [14:07] <hsivonen> Rik`: thanks
  569. # [14:08] <annevk> MikeSmith, yt?
  570. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> annevk: yep
  571. # [14:08] <annevk> MikeSmith, I'm removing http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/#webarch
  572. # [14:08] <annevk> MikeSmith, the source code says you are using it, so you may want to copy it and put it somewhere safe
  573. # [14:08] * MikeSmith looks
  574. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> I'm not using it anymore
  575. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> so fine by me
  576. # [14:09] <annevk> kk
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  579. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> annevk: have you run the diff doc through pubrules?
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  589. # [14:57] <annevk> MikeSmith, no
  590. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> ok
  591. # [14:57] <annevk> MikeSmith, I was addressing Marcos' comments
  592. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> ok
  593. # [14:58] <annevk> MikeSmith, it's not yet marked-as-WD; trying to find if I missed any comments but it seems I'm done
  594. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> when you do get to pubrules, let me know if you have any problems
  595. # [14:59] <annevk> are there any new rules or something?
  596. # [14:59] <annevk> because normally I'm automatically compliant minus a few things that are bugs in pubrules
  597. # [15:02] <annevk> ah, copyright date was wrong
  598. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> we have been having some problems with pubrules lately
  599. # [15:03] <annevk> seems someone magically fixed that while publishing
  600. # [15:03] <annevk> last time
  601. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> I might have changed that
  602. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> dunno
  603. # [15:03] <annevk> anyway, it's all good now I think
  604. # [15:03] <annevk> at least in the same state it was last time, minus the copyright bug
  605. # [15:03] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/
  606. # [15:03] <annevk> if people find more issues today I can probably fix them
  607. # [15:04] <annevk> and depending on when everything is moved over I can also fix things tomorrow or the date of publication
  608. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> ok
  609. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I found the cause of the missing-error-message bug
  610. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> it was due to the code I added to the message emitter recently
  611. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> surprise surprise
  612. # [15:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: :-)
  613. # [15:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I guess I suck at code review
  614. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> I think it was easy to miss
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  616. # [15:20] <hsivonen> so which version of Web Sockets did Safari 5 ship?
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  619. # [15:26] <boblet> hey all, re: <dl> I’ve had two ppl say today that dt/dd associations need an explicit wrapping element. one said it’s annoying to style and another said it’s hard to manipulate in Javascript. would the solution just to be make each name-value association an individual <dl>? so a description list becomes a list of multiple <dl> elements, each wrapping one name-value association
  620. # [15:26] <hsivonen> boblet: in theory that breaks semantics
  621. # [15:27] <hsivonen> boblet: Not sure whether it's a Real Problem, though.
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  623. # [15:27] <boblet> hsivonen: in the styling case you’d need to apply classes to both dt and dd to style a name-value association
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  625. # [15:30] <boblet> I’m guessing that we’re not able to put in eg a wrapping div to style a name-vale association (I think that’s what this means: “If a dl element contains non-whitespace text nodes, or elements other than dt and dd, then those elements or text nodes do not form part of any groups in that dl.”)
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  628. # [15:43] <annevk> hmm, actually, IETF meetings are expensive
  629. # [15:43] <annevk> unless lots of friends are going to hang out in Maastricht I'm not going I think
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  631. # [15:49] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: -75
  632. # [15:51] <annevk> hopefully they fix that in a .1
  633. # [15:51] <jgraham> kinda ironic given that othermaciej was instrumental in designing -76
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  639. # [15:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: sigh. that sucks big time.
  640. # [16:00] <zcorpan_> yes
  641. # [16:00] <annevk> really?
  642. # [16:01] <annevk> Chromium dev already changed, nobody else has shipped, ...
  643. # [16:02] <annevk> and it's not like it's clear that post -75 is in a fixed state...
  644. # [16:02] <annevk> see e.g. the whole SSL handshake discussion
  645. # [16:02] * hsivonen isn't reading hybi
  646. # [16:02] <annevk> prolly a smart thing
  647. # [16:03] <annevk> that was the first sensible discussion since a long time
  648. # [16:03] <jgraham> annevk: Depends if this is the same as whatever will ship on the iPhone / iPad
  649. # [16:03] <jgraham> People will make sites that sepend on those
  650. # [16:03] <jgraham> *depend
  651. # [16:03] <jgraham> Desktop Safari not si much
  652. # [16:03] <jgraham> *so
  653. # [16:05] <Rik`> I'm really concerned about the QA done with Chrome and Safari
  654. # [16:06] <Rik`> they don't mention the UI for <input type="number/date"> in the release notes which let me think it wasn't tested
  655. # [16:09] <jgraham> Rik`: It's not clar that that follows
  656. # [16:09] <jgraham> clear
  657. # [16:09] <jgraham> Sigh. I should try pressing the right keys
  658. # [16:10] <Rik`> jgraham: on http://www.apple.com/safari/whats-new.html, there are 7 lines for sectionning that adds nothing except parsing rules and display: block
  659. # [16:10] <Rik`> this was added to WebKit by Apple
  660. # [16:11] <Rik`> the new UI for forms was added by Google and there is no mention
  661. # [16:11] <jgraham> Rik`: Often QA and Marketing are not working that closely together
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  663. # [16:12] <Rik`> sure
  664. # [16:13] <Rik`> but mentioning form validation and not the UI feels strange to me
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  667. # [16:15] <jgraham> Rik`: Indeed. but better to test than to speculate
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  689. # [17:35] <TabAtkins> jgraham: The purpose of the photograph is to provide a physical depiction of the CEO. Thus in this case a description is appropriate, as you need the caption to be referring to something (in most other cases it is purely decorative and so should receive the empty string).
  690. # [17:39] <jgraham> TabAtkins: That seems unlikely. I mean the purpose of the photograph is probably to make the company seem "more human" so stimulating a positive emotional response, or to make the CEO feel impoartant, or something
  691. # [17:40] <jgraham> it is very unlikely to be "to help the users identify the CEO in an identity parade"
  692. # [17:40] <gsnedders> Oh, is that the point of those photos?
  693. # [17:40] * gsnedders have never got any point of those photos
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  711. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> Who's defining DOM 0 right now?
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  713. # [18:42] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Hahahaha
  714. # [18:43] <jgraham> (that's the short answer)
  715. # [18:43] <jgraham> (the long answer is zcorpan and gsnedders worked on Web DOM Core but don't have time to pursue it, so no one)
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  745. # [19:58] <volkmar> is there a reason why valueAsNumber is a double instead of a float ?
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  753. # [20:03] <Dashiva> volkmar: I'd assume it's because javascript numbers are doubles
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  756. # [20:07] <volkmar> Dashiva: why not but then there is a lake of consistency as progress element has only float attributes
  757. # [20:08] <volkmar> and the specs say we should apply "the rules for parsing floating point number values"
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  762. # [20:13] <Dashiva> Hmm, so valueAsNumber is the only use of double?
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  764. # [20:13] <volkmar> afaict
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  768. # [20:15] <volkmar> Dashiva: even if it could be great to have double for progress.position
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  771. # [20:17] <Dashiva> It seems valueAsNumber is used for date-based inputs, using float there wouldn't be future-proof I guess?
  772. # [20:18] <Dashiva> It used to be float, but was increased to double on request
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  776. # [20:21] <volkmar> Dashiva: then, it explains why the spec say we should parse it with the float rule
  777. # [20:22] <volkmar> i suppose it should be changed if we keep float
  778. # [20:22] <volkmar> s/we keep float/you keep double/
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  787. # [21:01] <drclue> OK, I switched over to Chrome 6.0.422.0 dev (Linux) to work out the new WebSocket handshake. By using injected inputs of both the link Hixie gave me http://junkyard.damowmow.com/433 and the examples in the spec , I get the expected results , but when I use the request from Chrome , Key 3 looks odd as does the result and of course it does not work. I've posted examples of the input and resulting output for all three cases at h
  788. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> drclue, cut off after "all three cases at".
  789. # [21:03] <annevk> http://hg.diveintohtml5.org/hgweb.cgi/rev/31e07449843a7982c119bc7fe2c69b595a7e46f5 -- did someone tell hsivonen? :)
  790. # [21:03] <drclue> ...all three cases at http://www.drclue.net/ws.html The only thing I'm modifying in my code is the handshake , and the code did work before, and does work with the example requests, just not in Chrome. The only thing that strikes me as odd are the values for the fields "host" and "origin" , which sorta seem transposed in the request as relates to what I think I'm reading in the spec
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  793. # [21:11] <drclue> In the spec it says that the "origin" request field should contain the scheme, hostname, and port , but the chrome request only has the scheme and hostname , and not the port. The "host" request field has the port tacked on the end though, and I'm not even sure that should be there
  794. # [21:13] <drclue> The only time the "origin" request field is supposed to exclude the port reference is if it is the default port, but I'm using port 10812
  795. # [21:14] <drclue> So am I just missing something obvious , or is something besides me broken here?
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  798. # [21:25] <jgraham> drclue: afaict both host and origin should include non-defaul ports
  799. # [21:25] <kpx> Hey I am new to JS and I just wrote a small blog on Webstorage and HTML5 that I had studied in the past few days... Now I wanted to know some good place where I can post it so I could have some discussion and FB....
  800. # [21:26] <jgraham> The random bytes from Chrome, as written on your website look screwy
  801. # [21:26] <jgraham> kpx: I don't really understand the question
  802. # [21:27] <drclue> @jgraham I most certainly agree they look way wrong. Check out the "host" and "origin" fields in the request. Do those jive with your understanding of the spec?
  803. # [21:29] <jgraham> drclue: origin should have a port, at least
  804. # [21:29] <zcorpan_> drclue: Origin is the origin of the page which runs the script that opens the websocket
  805. # [21:29] <kpx> As in I used to submit blog entries to hacker news and all... Is there some place like taht for HTML5 and all?
  806. # [21:29] <jgraham> Ah, that's a good point
  807. # [21:29] <jgraham> If you are running the page on port 80 it shoudln't
  808. # [21:30] <drclue> @jgraham so what ya figure gives with the odd looking key 3?
  809. # [21:30] <jgraham> kpx: Not really.
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  811. # [21:31] <annevk> drclue, if it's the default port of the scheme the origin production will not include the port
  812. # [21:31] <annevk> so http,80 -> no port; https,443 -> no port; http,81 -> port; etc.
  813. # [21:31] <drclue> OK, , I'm with ya on the origin
  814. # [21:32] <drclue> I still don't get this thing with the odd looking key 3.
  815. # [21:32] <zcorpan_> drclue: looks like you're converting key3 to characters
  816. # [21:32] <zcorpan_> drclue: key3 is random bytes
  817. # [21:33] <zcorpan_> drclue: don't decode them to a string
  818. # [21:33] <jgraham> zcorpan_: It looks surprisingly non-random though
  819. # [21:33] <jgraham> What am I missing
  820. # [21:34] <drclue> I understand that they are random bytes. I had only copy-n-pasted them from the shell output to the text editor where in the process they got mangled , but they were mangled looking when they came in
  821. # [21:34] <jgraham> Define "mangled looking"
  822. # [21:34] <jgraham> Were there 8 bytes?
  823. # [21:35] <annevk> opening _bytes_ in a _text_ editor doesn't really work ;)
  824. # [21:35] <jgraham> annevk: That really depends
  825. # [21:35] <jgraham> I mean they all map to something
  826. # [21:35] <drclue> Well, I'm not sure if the examples in the spec and the example in hixies example were rigged to be printable , but both of those were printable and did work in my handshake code
  827. # [21:36] <annevk> yeah, like the UTF-8 BOM followed by some stuff :p
  828. # [21:36] <Hixie> the spec examples were rigged
  829. # [21:36] <Hixie> to avoid non-printable characters
  830. # [21:36] <drclue> Yes there were the proper number of bytes
  831. # [21:36] <jgraham> drclue: So I don't understand the problem
  832. # [21:37] <drclue> The problem is that chrome won't accept the handshake
  833. # [21:37] <zcorpan_> chrome's handshake looks ok to me when i look in wireshark, and it accepts the handshake to a pywebsocket server
  834. # [21:38] <Hixie> chrome's handshake works with http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/websocket/ connectring to ws://damowmow.com:11111
  835. # [21:38] <Hixie> chrome 6, that is
  836. # [21:38] <Hixie> dev channel
  837. # [21:38] <Hixie> haven't tested 5.x betas
  838. # [21:39] <jgraham> drclue: You have your server code anywhere?
  839. # [21:39] <jgraham> (public)
  840. # [21:39] <drclue> It has been my assumption that the only thing I should have to change from before is the handshake and that the javascript on the browser side should go unchanged. I'm currently testing with Linux 6.0.422.0 dev
  841. # [21:40] <drclue> No , I don't have the server code up anywhere
  842. # [21:41] <Hixie> i'm pretty sure the JS should not need changing
  843. # [21:41] <Hixie> can you show us a dump of what the client sends and what the server sends?
  844. # [21:42] <jgraham> Hixie: should that page for for me? I pasted in the ws URL and hit connect but it always just disconnects
  845. # [21:42] <drclue> The only thing I'm messing with is the handshake , and for the most part I ripped off the code from http://webreflection.blogspot.com/
  846. # [21:44] <Hixie> sorry i meant ws://damowmow.com:11111/demo
  847. # [21:45] <drclue> @Hixie the closest I have to a dump is on http://www.drclue.net/ws.html examples (A) and (C) are injected , while example (B) is from chrome
  848. # [21:45] <zcorpan_> Hixie: your demo needs s/URL/url/ :)
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  850. # [21:45] <jgraham> Hixie: Ah, that works :)
  851. # [21:46] <Hixie> zcorpan_: hm, yeah
  852. # [21:46] <Hixie> drclue: i would guess your problem is in handling the bytes -- you're probably converting them to UTF-8 or something
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  854. # [21:48] <annevk> if we break from HTTP we should just make it a UTF-8 stream
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  856. # [21:52] <epeus> anyone know if Apple did fulfil Jobs's pledge to post open specs on their new FaceTime stuff yet?
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  859. # [21:58] <jgraham> epeus: I thought he promised "open standards" which is a bit different to just "open specs"
  860. # [21:59] <kpx> jgraham: Hey I wrote this small blog entry on webdatabases wanted to ask if you could just have a look and suggest some improvements... http://mnesia.wikispaces.com/HTML5+and+webstorage...
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  862. # [21:59] <kpx> jgraham: thanks..
  863. # [21:59] <epeus> I saw a list fo acronyms I recognised...
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  869. # [22:16] <jgraham> kpx: I haven't done a detailed technical review, but it is worth noting that the databases stuff is only really sutiable for extensions or other use cases where the target browser is known in advance
  870. # [22:17] <jgraham> because only Opera + Webkit have support and the others have rejected the idea
  871. # [22:17] <kpx> jgraham: Well i did all this while writing a chrome extension so its ok.... :)
  872. # [22:19] <kpx> jgraham: But thanks for looking, I'd be happy if you could give any pointers
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  874. # [22:27] <jgraham> kpx: Yeah, I saw you were developing a chrome extension. But the second sentence of the article is somewhat misleading
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  882. # [22:42] <zcorpan_> anyone wanna place bets on whether the spec will be published tomorrow?
  883. # [22:42] * gsnedders realzies he can't use being under 18 as an excuse for not betting now
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  914. # [23:57] <nessy> Hixie: question of process - are any of the discussions on WHATWG still useful to include new stuff into the spec or are we beyond that and changes have to be made through the W3C process?
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  918. # Session Close: Wed Jun 09 00:00:00 2010

The end :)