/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-06-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 10 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <AryehGregor> You can't get them to care about screen readers if they have a negligible number of blind users.
  4. # [00:00] <AryehGregor> You might be able to get them to care about, say, cell phones. Maybe.
  5. # [00:00] <Hixie> so what, screw the blind?
  6. # [00:00] <zcorpan_> make dreamweaver have multiple views of the document
  7. # [00:00] <zcorpan_> i think they've done that now
  8. # [00:00] <AryehGregor> No, just acknowledge that trying to mandate things that most authors won't listen to doesn't help the blind. Authoring requirements have to reflect reality just as much as implementer requirements.
  9. # [00:01] <Hixie> i strongly disagree with that later statement
  10. # [00:01] <Hixie> i think in the case of authoring requirements, conformance requirements have to _lead_ reality
  11. # [00:01] <AryehGregor> Why the difference?
  12. # [00:02] <Hixie> because authoring requirements don't affect interop
  13. # [00:02] <Hixie> they affect the success with which an author can convey meaning
  14. # [00:02] <Hixie> whereas UA requirements are intended to result in interop
  15. # [00:02] <Hixie> it's a huge assymetry
  16. # [00:03] <Hixie> it's the same reason why UA requirements have to cover every eventuality of author input, but author requirements don't have to cover every eventuality of UA output
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  18. # [00:04] <AryehGregor> Reasonable.
  19. # [00:05] <zcorpan_> authors have to deal with actual UA output
  20. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> Nevertheless, you cannot preempt cost-benefit analyses by authors. If a business is making a website to sell a product that has effectively no blind users, then you are not going to be able to persuade them to expend nontrivial resources on making things accessible to blind people.
  21. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> Not unless you have more power over authors than standards bodies actually do in practice.
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  23. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> The best you can do is hope people want their pages to validate, but that power becomes weaker with every additional requirement, because stricter requirements mean fewer people bother to comply.
  24. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> Ideally, HTML would be crafted so that it's really accessible with no effort involved beyond what it takes to get the page working right in a standard visual browser.
  25. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> Unfortunately, that's not possible.
  26. # [00:07] <Hixie> that's certainly true. It's why with HTML5 we've made a significant effort to remove requirements that are pointless (e.g. "ids can't start with a number") and make the actual requirements all have good reasons (like "doing this will disenfranchise the blind")
  27. # [00:07] <Hixie> ("that" being the thing about power becoming weaker with each requirement)
  28. # [00:07] <Hixie> i think with HTML5 we actually get pretty close to what you describe
  29. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> But the blind will be disenfranchised anyway. If you require alt text, authors will put empty alt text or lousy alt text.
  30. # [00:07] <Hixie> but obviously there are limits to what we can do
  31. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> Unless they care about the blind to begin with.
  32. # [00:08] <AryehGregor> Wikipedia didn't allow alt text on images until like last year, when I added the feature for basically idealistic reasons. I don't recall ever seeing a single complaint.
  33. # [00:08] <AryehGregor> If authors don't get complaints from actual users, they won't fix things.
  34. # [00:09] <Hixie> wikipedia images almost always just repeat what is already said on the page
  35. # [00:09] <AryehGregor> It's way easier to just trivially fix all the validator errors, than to actually test in a screen reader (which is what you really need to do to get a good website for the blind).
  36. # [00:09] <Hixie> so it's not a big deal for wikipedia images to not have alt text in many cases
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  38. # [00:10] <Hixie> AryehGregor: for authors who don't care about making content accessible, the alternatives i see are them using purely presentational markup, or them using non-presentational markup that approximates their semantics by virtue of defaulting to relatively close to the presentation they want
  39. # [00:11] <Hixie> AryehGregor: neither is ideal, but the second option is mildly better.
  40. # [00:11] <Hixie> AryehGregor: and had the benefit that it might make them look things up. maybe.
  41. # [00:11] <AryehGregor> Shrug.
  42. # [00:11] <AryehGregor> I guess we'll see what happens.
  43. # [00:11] <Hixie> AryehGregor: for authors who _do_ care about making content accessible, but simply don't know that it's an option, the validator complaining about presentational markup will lead them to find out how to do it.
  44. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> Except when all the tutorials switch to using semantic-as-presentational markup instead of actually presentational markup.
  45. # [00:12] <Hixie> some might
  46. # [00:12] <Hixie> some won't
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  48. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> I'd probably be more inclined to agree with you if I weren't faced with the fact that most Wikipedia pages will never validate again once we switch to HTML5. I'll just have to view that as GIGO, I guess.
  49. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> Maybe add an option to not allow the newly-invalid markup.
  50. # [00:15] <Hixie> there's definitely a dichotomy between newly created pages and legacy pages that are going to be ported
  51. # [00:15] <Hixie> i wish i had a good solution to that problem
  52. # [00:15] <Hixie> it's one we've fought with a lot
  53. # [00:15] <Hixie> most of the old "downplayed errors" and the current "obsolete but conforming" stuff are related to that problem
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  55. # [00:16] <AryehGregor> If mechanical translation were used, do you think it would be better to do <tt> -> <span style="font-family:monospace"> or <tt> -> <code>?
  56. # [00:16] <Hixie> we need different validator behaviour for different pages, but without running into the HTML4 Transitional problem (where everyone writes new pages that claim to be legacy pages)
  57. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> Wikitext is really hard to parse, though, so we can't feasibly do mechanical translation of any kind on the source wikitext.
  58. # [00:17] <Hixie> because we don't have a good solution, i've tended to favour the needs of new pages, because there will be more new pages in the future than there are pages that will be migrated
  59. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> We could force everyone to switch by shutting off support for old elements/attributes, but that would break . . . everything.
  60. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> It's a headache.
  61. # [00:17] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i don't think you can successfully do a mechanical translation of presentational markup to semantic markup today without an intimate knowledge of the source document's typographic conventions
  62. # [00:18] <AryehGregor> If you could do reliable automated translation from presentational to semantic markup, semantic markup would not be needed.
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  64. # [00:22] <Dashiva> Aren't most wikipedia images actually <figure> form?
  65. # [00:22] <AryehGregor> I guess your decision is reasonable, but it's a huge pain in the neck for me.
  66. # [00:22] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, yes, but we can't use that until IE8 is dead. Don't want to rely on JS hacks.
  67. # [00:23] <Dashiva> You don't have to use the element, but you can use its aria mappings
  68. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> Interesting idea.
  69. # [00:23] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i completely agree that it's a huge pain in the neck for anyone with legacy content
  70. # [00:23] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i have no good solution for that sadly
  71. # [00:28] <zcorpan_> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=4315 - feedback on rel=prefetch
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  75. # [00:34] <zcorpan_> "BUT Is it CORRECT to put a NAV tag within a HEADER TAG? I have read in the specs that you can put non H or HGROUP tags within a header but it refers to those other tags as "metadata"... That makes me nervous." - http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4613614#post4613614
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  81. # [00:54] <Hixie> jesus, i just got 6 copies of the BoF announcement -- and that's after deduping due to corss-posting
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  83. # [00:56] <abarth> i think they're worried about it being last-minute
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  86. # [00:59] <Hixie> face to face meetings like that are such a waste of time
  87. # [00:59] * Hixie mumbles
  88. # [00:59] <AryehGregor> It's nice to meet people sometimes.
  89. # [00:59] <AryehGregor> Even if not much gets done.
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  91. # [01:01] <Hixie> i'm all for people getting together for fun
  92. # [01:01] <Hixie> that's not what these things are
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  95. # [01:09] <cardona507> I had a good time at the TPAC - granted the most fun was the night we all went out for mexican food
  96. # [01:10] <Hixie> i'm not arguing that they're not fun, especially the first few
  97. # [01:10] <Hixie> i'm arguing that they're a waste of time
  98. # [01:10] <Hixie> i do think we should have some get togethers more often
  99. # [01:10] <Hixie> it's hard with us spread around so much though
  100. # [01:16] <cardona507> I was watching the documentary Code Rush - about Mozilla and noticed that they all have a celebration dinner at the same mexican restaurant that we all ate at. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u404SLJj7ig -
  101. # [01:19] <Hixie> yup
  102. # [01:19] <Hixie> la fiesta
  103. # [01:20] <Hixie> i first learnt of la fiesta while interning at netscape
  104. # [01:20] <cardona507> :)
  105. # [01:20] <Hixie> we went there all the time
  106. # [01:20] <cardona507> wow - you were at netscape - interesting
  107. # [01:20] <cardona507> bet that was a wild ride
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  115. # [01:27] <Hixie> cardona507: i was there for a year as an intern, basically during the netscape 6.0 release
  116. # [01:27] <Hixie> summer 2000 to summer 2001
  117. # [01:27] <Hixie> just before the bubble burst
  118. # [01:27] <Hixie> or as the bubble was bursting
  119. # [01:27] <Hixie> depending on your outlook
  120. # [01:27] <cardona507> any obvious similarities between then and now?
  121. # [01:29] <Hixie> hard to say
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  123. # [01:31] <Hixie> the french have a saying, le plus ca change, le plus c'est la meme chose (modulo my not having entered appropriate accents)
  124. # [01:31] <Hixie> which applies here
  125. # [01:31] <Hixie> the fundamentals are all pretty much the same
  126. # [01:31] <Hixie> even the players are pretty much the same
  127. # [01:31] <Hixie> though with some new faces, and some old ones gone
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  129. # [01:32] <cardona507> well said
  130. # [01:33] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: The english speaking world has that saying too. (I dunno where it originated, but it's common now.)
  131. # [01:33] <Hixie> comes from Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr
  132. # [01:34] <Hixie> ok bbl
  133. # [01:34] <cardona507> HTML5 it - http://www.fastcompany.com/1658276/html5-the-next-buzzword-the-next-battle?partner=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+fastcompany/headlines+(Fast+Company+Headlines)
  134. # [01:34] <cardona507> ugg - what an ugly url
  135. # [01:36] <Dashiva> You can leave out the stuff after the ?
  136. # [01:37] <cardona507> yes - that is better
  137. # [01:39] <Dashiva> Evil google making our URLs ugly :P
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  145. # [01:50] <til> this is slightly OT, but does anyone know where apple was going to publish the FaceTime spec yesterday?
  146. # [01:50] <til> there are so many standards bodies. i haven't seen anything posted on IETF
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  171. # [02:48] <paul_irish> anyone know if a css spec indicates i can legally mix hex notation with rgba or not?
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  175. # [02:55] <Dashiva> paul_irish: Mix how? In the same stylesheet, or the same value?
  176. # [02:57] <paul_irish> well my usecase here is a linear gradient..
  177. # [02:58] <paul_irish> i can't think of any spec'd things that accept multiple colors like gradients do...
  178. # [02:59] <paul_irish> the problem is webkit doesnt allow a mix of hex and rgba values in a linear gradient definition, and i wanted to see if a spec indicates it should.
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  181. # [03:01] <Dashiva> I guess that would depend on the specification for the property
  182. # [03:01] <Dashiva> E.g. https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/-moz-linear-gradient doesn't say anything about the different <color> instances having to use the same syntax, so it should work in firefox
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  207. # [03:58] <TabAtkins> paul_irish: A <color> is a <color> is a <color>. It doesn't matter what notation you use, even for multiple occurences in one "value" like a linear-gradient() function.
  208. # [03:58] <TabAtkins> They all just get passed to the color parser and turned into a 4-byte number anyway.
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  212. # [04:01] <TabAtkins> If webkit seriously doesn't allow mixed notations in color-stops in their -webkit-gradient() notation, that's extremely odd. It would be substantially more work to disallow it than to allow it.
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  217. # [04:38] <paul_irish> TabAtkins: i am now having trouble reproducing the bug i found. if i can, i'll file it. thx
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  222. # [05:22] <annevk> oh, only 5:20
  223. # [05:23] <annevk> D66 FTW
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  225. # [05:27] <annevk> aah, we went from 11 to 10 again
  226. # [05:27] <annevk> lame
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  250. # [07:18] <kpx> Hey I am making a scrapbook plugin for google chrome and nearing completion. I am saving the pages as a innerHTML of the 'HTML' element in a WEBDATABASE in HTML5. At rendering time I am just replacing the innerHTML of a blank page. This is obviously not sufficient as the style etc are not applied properly and page is distorted.... The question is more how can i retrieve the style of the...
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  252. # [07:18] <kpx> ...page so I may store it onto the database?? ....
  253. # [07:18] <kpx> and then apply it back
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  257. # [07:35] <kpx> Never mind I think I got it....
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  277. # [08:39] <kpx> Hey does someone know a pure JS function to convert Images to base64 so I can store it as text?
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  279. # [08:42] <slartsa> hm, I can't trust w3schools anymore, found a typo from the site :)
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  282. # [08:57] <hsivonen> Are the Adobe heart images at http://www.fastcompany.com/1658276/html5-the-next-buzzword-the-next-battle?partner=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+fastcompany/headlines+%28Fast+Company+Headlines actual ads?
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  292. # [10:15] <jgraham> Wow, the name of the polyglot document is being bikeshedded
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  294. # [10:38] <abarth> jgraham: shocking
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  296. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> hey, it's abarth
  297. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> abarth: I was suggesting to wirepair yesterday that he should ping you
  298. # [10:41] <abarth> hi MikeSmith
  299. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> hey man
  300. # [10:41] <abarth> who is wirepair?
  301. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> he's interested in helping improved Web-application/browser security
  302. # [10:42] <abarth> ah, awesome
  303. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> and was asking about where he could find test cases
  304. # [10:43] <abarth> tests cases for what?
  305. # [10:43] <abarth> http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/http/tests/security
  306. # [10:43] <abarth> has a ton of security test cases
  307. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> yeah, like that
  308. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> I don't know if he had found that yet or not
  309. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> anyway, I just wanted to give you a heads-up that he may be pinging you
  310. # [10:44] <abarth> okiedokes
  311. # [10:44] * abarth goes to bed
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  314. # [10:54] <wirepair> doh just missed him
  315. # [10:57] <Dashiva> "1 in 4 has a vision difficulty (25%)" makes me think they include people with regular glasses
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  338. # [12:50] <zcorpan_> http://twitter.com/jaffathecake/status/15839704934
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  340. # [12:52] <volkmar> the specs say input.value, on setting should throw INVALID_STATE_ERR if the type is 'file' but SECURITY_ERR isn't more appropriate ?
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  354. # [13:52] <jgraham> Is it just me that is having problems with recent firefox trunk on lucid?
  355. # [13:52] <jgraham> Like it won't start at all
  356. # [13:53] <micheil> jgraham: got that websocket-server working.
  357. # [13:54] <jgraham> micheil: Nice
  358. # [13:54] <micheil> yeah. parses something like 100,000 packets / ~1.2
  359. # [13:54] * jgraham wonders if WebM is to blame or if this failure predates that landing
  360. # [13:55] <kbrosnan> webm was yesterday morning
  361. # [13:56] <jgraham> Hmm, I think it stopped loading yesterday, but I hasn't updated for a few days
  362. # [13:56] <jgraham> *hadn't
  363. # [13:57] <kbrosnan> starts fine for me, ppa or build from mozilla?
  364. # [13:57] <jgraham> ppa
  365. # [13:57] * kbrosnan is using the latter
  366. # [13:58] <kbrosnan> try the usual, safe mode, rename .mozilla?
  367. # [13:59] <jgraham> Yeah, will do
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  386. # [15:20] <henrikbjorn> hey guys. a little question. If i have a widget in my sidebar that has a h1 should it then be a <article> or <section>
  387. # [15:20] * Joins: skm_ (~engage@220-245-154-124.static.tpgi.com.au)
  388. # [15:21] <zcorpan_> henrikbjorn: is the widget 'standalone'?
  389. # [15:21] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p1201-ipbf709osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  390. # [15:21] <henrikbjorn> its a ul with links to discussions
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  392. # [15:22] <henrikbjorn> which dosent really have anything to do with the content areas content
  393. # [15:22] <zcorpan_> sounds like an <aside> then :)
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  397. # [15:22] <henrikbjorn> okay :) another stupid question then. What if it is a box width text like "Help us out with feedback click here" aside aswell ?
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  400. # [15:24] <zcorpan_> sure. or you could have an <aside> that wraps all such boxes
  401. # [15:24] <boblet> oh oh stupid question time? perfect! :)
  402. # [15:24] <boblet> one from me; the reason for the change from block/inline to flow/phrasing was the confusion once CSS display values are added to the mix, right?
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  404. # [15:24] <zcorpan_> boblet: yes
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  406. # [15:25] <boblet> henrikbjorn: I like to think of <aside> as something that’s not essential to the main content, i.e. something a mobile browser could choose to not download to save bandwidth
  407. # [15:26] <boblet> zcorpan_: thanks :) thought I remember reading that somewhere but wanted to check
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  409. # [15:26] <boblet> henrikbjorn: you could also use Safari Reader or Instapaper as a mental model
  410. # [15:26] <henrikbjorn> zcorpan_: yeah but the question is what the markup for the box it self should be not the sidebar :)
  411. # [15:27] <henrikbjorn> like iphone specific sites
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  413. # [15:27] <zcorpan_> henrikbjorn: i'd say <section>
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  417. # [15:28] <henrikbjorn> i guess a box like this falls under "The section element represents a generic document or application section…"
  418. # [15:29] <henrikbjorn> thanks guys :D
  419. # [15:30] <boblet> henrikbjorn: if you need more feedback a code sample is always easy to advise on
  420. # [15:31] <boblet> (not required of course :) )
  421. # [15:31] <henrikbjorn> yeah was just initial thoughts before starting coding. Im sure ill come up with a few questions incl. code samples later on :)
  422. # [15:32] * zcorpan_ likes the fact that http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/html/w3c-home-in-html5 now renders correctly in opera, firefox and webkit
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  424. # [15:32] <zcorpan_> when i wrote that page, it only rendered correctly in opera
  425. # [15:32] <zcorpan_> wonder if ie9 gets it right
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  431. # [15:39] <zcorpan_> oh, html5test.com finally updated
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  433. # [15:40] <hsivonen> hmm. SVG and MathML parsing count as bonus points...
  434. # [15:40] <hsivonen> support for parsing is actually required
  435. # [15:40] <hsivonen> though it's probably better if a browser doesn't support parsing if it doesn't support rendering
  436. # [15:46] <zcorpan_> chrome doesn't support WAVE?
  437. # [15:56] <Lachy> zcorpan_, no, it never has
  438. # [15:57] <Lachy> only aac and vorbis, I believe
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  440. # [16:01] <zcorpan_> wonder why they don't support wave
  441. # [16:05] <hsivonen> so there isn't even PCM WAVE as cross-browser audio baseline :-(
  442. # [16:09] <zcorpan_> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=23916
  443. # [16:09] <hsivonen> I can no longer find any mention of PCM in the spec
  444. # [16:09] <hsivonen> I thought PCM WAVE used to be a required feature
  445. # [16:09] <hsivonen> did it get vendor vetoed?
  446. # [16:11] <zcorpan_> hixie removed it at the same time as the codec big-issue paragraph was removed, citing the fact that all browsers were going to support wave anyway
  447. # [16:11] <hsivonen> right...
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  454. # [16:27] <jgraham> Hmm, doesn't the W3C testsuite license grant a strict subset of the rights granted by the 3 clause BSD license?
  455. # [16:28] <jgraham> Oh it's probably about whether you get to mention the W3C or not
  456. # [16:28] <jgraham> In one case you have to, in the other you can't
  457. # [16:28] <hsivonen> It's relatively hard to grant a superset of the right granted by the 3-clause BSD license without going into trademark territory
  458. # [16:28] <hsivonen> *rights
  459. # [16:30] <jgraham> Yeah, I think the trademark issue is the only difference
  460. # [16:31] <jgraham> That is, if you want to mention the W3C you must use the things under the W3C testsuite license which doesn't allow modifications
  461. # [16:31] <Dashiva> "Here is a testsuite completely unrelated to w3c"
  462. # [16:33] <nessy> google chrome doesn't support PCM WAVE
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  465. # [16:53] <annevk> what is the point again of having two licenses for a test? http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing/Submission/
  466. # [16:53] <annevk> one being less permissive than the other
  467. # [16:53] <hsivonen> annevk: the less permissive one is more Official
  468. # [16:54] <annevk> so basically for people that would love to use it under that license so they are forced to meet the extra requirements?
  469. # [16:55] <hsivonen> for people who want to pass the Official Test Suite, I guess
  470. # [16:55] <zcorpan_> a whole lotta yellow in http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100609
  471. # [16:58] <annevk> maybe because it was election day
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  475. # [17:05] <hsivonen> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100609#l-1225 I would have thought Googlebot had CSS support already
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  477. # [17:09] <TabAtkins> Googlebot understands enough CSS to tell in some circumstances that you're trying to be sneaky with SEO things. That's about it.
  478. # [17:10] <zcorpan_> TabAtkins: but it doesn't fetch external style sheets, does it?
  479. # [17:10] * hsivonen wonders if Googlebot support all the newest Selectors
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  484. # [17:41] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Is kosher a proper superset of vegetarian?
  485. # [17:45] <TabAtkins> I know that it's not a superset of fish-eating vegetarianism, because of dairy+fish.
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  509. # [18:54] <Dashiva> Who is going to buy all the bikes we'll need to justify these bikesheds?
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  512. # [18:56] <Philip`> Dashiva: You're missing the point of bikesheds, if you want to put bikes in them
  513. # [18:56] <Philip`> The point of bikesheds is the bikeshed
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  515. # [19:00] <henrikbjorn> Hey. How would you guys markup http://drp.ly/1as46T in html5
  516. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I object to the way you've chosen to make your point about the point about bikesheds.
  517. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> <div><ul><li><a href="#forum">Forum</a></li><li><a href="popular">Popular</a></li><li><a href="#nyeste">Nyeste</a></li></ul> <ul id=forum><li>...</li>...</ul> <ul id=popular>...</div>
  518. # [19:02] <henrikbjorn> but wuldnt a dl be a better option. And no section / article ? :)
  519. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> A <dl> is a possibilty, but styling it would be harder.
  520. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> And no, no need for sectioning elements in particular here.
  521. # [19:03] <henrikbjorn> even tho its meant for a sidebar ?
  522. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> In that case, probably replace the <div> with an <aside>.
  523. # [19:04] <henrikbjorn> okay :)
  524. # [19:04] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Wouldn't something like <h1>Forum</h1> (forum links) <h1>Populaere</h1> ... be more appropriate?
  525. # [19:04] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  526. # [19:04] <Philip`> since those heading things look like heading things to me
  527. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> Still too hard to style.
  528. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> Some consideration must be given to visual effects, at least until I get some better layout modules done in CSS.
  529. # [19:05] <henrikbjorn> the styling dosent matter :) more the markup im interested in.. my first atemp was a aside with a header and a section which hold the ul
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  538. # [19:29] <variable> I just added textarea to the rationale page on the wiki: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Rationale#textarea --> any comments?
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  547. # [20:06] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, dairy+fish is fine, only dairy+meat/poultry is a problem. Kosher food isn't quite a subset of vegan food; although all the ingredients in vegan food are kosher, there are some restrictions on the preparation and handling of food that could be a problem even if none of the ingredients are inherently non-kosher.
  548. # [20:07] <AryehGregor> For instance, milk is a problem according to some if not produced under Jewish supervision. Grape juice/wine can be a problem. Some cooked food is a problem.
  549. # [20:07] <AryehGregor> Something like raw fruit or vegetables should always be fine, at least if you ignore the problem of bugs.
  550. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> "Problem"?
  551. # [20:08] <AryehGregor> I mean, it can be non-kosher.
  552. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> Bugs can be non-kosher?
  553. # [20:08] <AryehGregor> All bugs are non-kosher, except theoretically some species of locust.
  554. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk.
  555. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> The only kosher animals are beasts with cloven hooves that chew their cud, fish with fins and scales, and most birds that people actually eat.
  556. # [20:10] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@1503032406.dhcp.dbnet.dk) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  557. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> Random awesome: http://pterosaurs.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/more_azhdarchids_with_clouds1.jpg
  558. # [20:12] * AryehGregor was about to question the accuracy of that image, but then looked up "azhdarchid" on Wikipedia and found the same image illustrating the article
  559. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> Haha.
  560. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> Apparently that's meant to be a "juvenile titanosaur" there.
  561. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> One particular family of pterosaurs is, apparently, confectured to be a plains walker.
  562. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> I was suspicious of the scale, because I assumed that thing was like a full-grown brontosaurus or such.
  563. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> It could still fly, but would often just walk around like a terrifying ostrich-analogue.
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  566. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> Oh, no. Just tiny food animal.
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  595. # [21:29] <othermaciej> wow, there has been a lot of public-html mail the past two weeks
  596. # [21:29] <cardona507> thats for sure
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  598. # [21:31] <annevk> hey, wb maciej
  599. # [21:31] <TabAtkins> yo, maciej.
  600. # [21:32] * TabAtkins is temporarily binning public-html for a month or two.
  601. # [21:34] * gsnedders will eventually catch up on public-html
  602. # [21:34] * gsnedders is around a month behind
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  608. # [21:53] <cardona507> installing windows XP onto my mac for some IE testing - I feel dirty
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  610. # [21:58] <Philip`> othermaciej: Fortunately approximately none of it was technical discussion, so it can be safely ignored by almost everyone (except by e.g. chairs)
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  612. # [21:59] <jgraham> gsnedders: Don't bother
  613. # [22:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: But what else will I do next Monday!?
  614. # [22:01] <Philip`> The same thing you do every Monday - try to take over the world
  615. # [22:03] <gsnedders> Shh, don't mention that.
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  618. # [22:06] <jgraham> gsnedders: is not actually pinky
  619. # [22:06] <jgraham> or indeed the brain
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  637. # [23:02] <AryehGregor> Does anyone know roughly what percentage of Mozilla development (for instance) is done by employees vs. volunteers?
  638. # [23:03] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
  639. # [23:04] <jgraham> AryehGregor: How are you measuing "development"?
  640. # [23:04] <AryehGregor> I don't know, anything handy.
  641. # [23:04] <jgraham> (the short anser is "no" btw)
  642. # [23:04] * Quits: ap (~ap@192.42.249.105) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  643. # [23:04] <AryehGregor> Heh.
  644. # [23:04] <AryehGregor> Number of commits would be a good start.
  645. # [23:05] <jcranmer> l10n commits skew that statistic a fair amount
  646. # [23:05] <jgraham> You probably need to weight by complexity of change somehow
  647. # [23:06] <jgraham> and remember that employees are more likely to have commit access
  648. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> It says who wrote the patch, though, yes?
  649. # [23:06] <jgraham> (does Mercurial allow seperate author/committer like git?)
  650. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> Pretty sure, yes.
  651. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> Or something like that.
  652. # [23:07] * jgraham wonders how many of JF's disability categories he fits into
  653. # [23:09] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-vwcglokagyftwyff) (Quit: brb)
  654. # [23:10] <jgraham> AryehGregor: The longer version of "no" is "I guess it is mostly employees these days"
  655. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> This has my name: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/511a92d06acf
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  662. # [23:23] * AryehGregor finds a google.com page on https with a little skull and crossbones in Chrome, because of insecure resources
  663. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> I didn't even try!
  664. # [23:23] * Joins: onar_ (~onar@2620:0:1b07:11:21b:63ff:fec1:7c07)
  665. # [23:24] <AryehGregor> Yay for HTTPS being broken.
  666. # [23:25] <AryehGregor> I also like how the Google Checkout credit card number field doesn't have autocomplete disabled.
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  674. # [23:46] <cardona507> can we postpone the dev meeting on next wed until 11am so that I can attend this? http://pages.engineyard.com/Rails3-MobileAppswithYehuda-62010.html
  675. # [23:46] * Quits: ap (~ap@192.42.249.105) (Quit: ap)
  676. # [23:50] <Philip`> cardona507: Wrong channel?
  677. # [23:52] <cardona507> haha - oops my bad :)
  678. # [23:59] * Quits: onar_ (~onar@2620:0:1b07:11:21b:63ff:fec1:7c07) (Quit: onar_)
  679. # Session Close: Fri Jun 11 00:00:00 2010

The end :)