/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-06-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jun 26 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> wow
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> that sucks
  5. # [00:03] <MikeSmith> hey, speaking of mail, has there been any agreement/resolution on the list discussion about renaming the @required attribute?
  6. # [00:03] <AryehGregor> I thought the resolution was "keep it, not enough sites to matter".
  7. # [00:03] <annevk> not renaming it
  8. # [00:04] <Hixie> i haven't looked at it yet
  9. # [00:04] <Hixie> depends on what browser vendors are willing to do
  10. # [00:04] * Quits: Omerss (6d420fa4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.66.15.164) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  11. # [00:04] <Hixie> opera and chrome don't seem to be willing to implement it as is without hacks
  12. # [00:05] <Hixie> (targetted hacks in opera's case, way over-broad hacks in chrome's case)
  13. # [00:05] <Hixie> so something will probably have to give
  14. # [00:05] <Hixie> i'll have to look more closely at the actual sites to see what we can do
  15. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> Maybe they would be okay with dropping the hacks if Mozilla implements it and evangelizes the sites in question?
  16. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> Mozilla has bigger market share, more likely to convince them.
  17. # [00:05] <Hixie> that might help
  18. # [00:06] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  19. # [00:11] <annevk> Jonas seemed to prefer that
  20. # [00:11] <annevk> me too
  21. # [00:11] <annevk> renaming things is no fun
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  23. # [00:15] <othermaciej> Hixie: We are considering removing @required from WebKit entirely
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  25. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> And replacing it with something?
  26. # [00:15] <othermaciej> at least until (a) it has a name with little enough conflict (for whatever reason) and (b) we actually have UI to tell you what happened if you can't submit a form because of it
  27. # [00:16] <othermaciej> I think the hack of supporting it but only in strict mode is ridiculous and broken
  28. # [00:16] <Hixie> othermaciej: well implementing it without hte UI was a terrible idea
  29. # [00:16] <Hixie> othermaciej: since the whole point of the feature is the UI
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  31. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Yeah, Aryeh has a bug asking webkit to turn off validation until there's UI that I can +1 on.
  32. # [00:16] <othermaciej> Hixie: agreed
  33. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> Someone else from WebKit also agreed on my bug.
  34. # [00:17] <Hixie> othermaciej: i told the people who did it as much, but they kinda blew me off, so... :-)
  35. # [00:17] <othermaciej> anyway, if Mozilla wants to go on a crusade to make the Web safe for an attribute named "required", I'm fine with waiting for the results, but I think the more practical choice would be to rename it
  36. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> They blew me off too.
  37. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, I thought there were only a limited number of sites with compatibility problems.
  38. # [00:17] <Hixie> i'm fine with renaming it too, i just need to look at the facts before i can work out what the right course of action is
  39. # [00:17] <Hixie> and subtitles come first :-P
  40. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> Also, good UI would really help a lot.
  41. # [00:18] <annevk> WebKit shipped without UI? blargh
  42. # [00:18] <annevk> I was told in a bug it would all be okay
  43. # [00:19] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I believe there are JavaScript libraries that use an attribute named "required" for their own purposes
  44. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> annevk, yep. MediaWiki had to disable form validation completely because of that.
  45. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, oh, bleh.
  46. # [00:19] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: that makes it likely the problem will be widespread
  47. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> I thought Opera only had to blacklist a few smallish sites?
  48. # [00:19] <othermaciej> and it is widespread enough that we actually got bugs
  49. # [00:20] <othermaciej> I'm fine with just disabling the feature til we get this straightened out
  50. # [00:25] <annevk> does seem good to disable those that require UI if the UI is not working
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  55. # [00:39] <paul_irish> AryehGregor: was mediawiki using a javascript library in particular that used a required attribute?/
  56. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> paul_irish, no, it was using required correctly for the most part. The problem was the lack of UI in WebKit.
  57. # [00:40] <paul_irish> ok
  58. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> People were trying to submit forms and they'd refuse to submit, with no error message.
  59. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> Which makes the feature worse than useless.
  60. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> Also, Opera's UI for it is pretty ugly, and that's the only other shipping implementation.
  61. # [00:43] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-vzrpdqacmzqdtcwl) (Quit: brb)
  62. # [00:47] <Lachy> AryehGregor, we know. we have our dev relations guys kicking us internally about the state of our HTML5 form controls.
  63. # [00:47] <AryehGregor> I know you know. :)
  64. # [00:48] <AryehGregor> I just hope we don't have zillions of Safari 5s hanging around forever that we have to sniff around for this.
  65. # [00:48] <othermaciej> some aspects of WebKit's version are ugly too
  66. # [00:48] <othermaciej> Safari update uptake is pretty quick and our release cycles tend to be a year max for major releases
  67. # [00:48] <Lachy> what form HTML5 form controls has webkit implemented these days?
  68. # [00:49] <othermaciej> and we fix significant compat bugs in minor releases
  69. # [00:49] <othermaciej> I think we have at least half-assed implementations of all the new <input> types, but most are not good enough (IMO) to whole-heartedly recommend to developers
  70. # [00:49] <Lachy> oh, type="date" looks like an number control
  71. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> type=color looks like a text input, unfortunately.
  72. # [00:50] <Lachy> and pressing up or down on an <input type="number"> control without a value gives +/- 1.7976931348623157e+308
  73. # [00:50] <othermaciej> like I said
  74. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> Haha, wow.
  75. # [00:50] <othermaciej> not yet done to good quality
  76. # [00:51] <othermaciej> if anyone would like to be paid by Apple to work in this area, send me a resume
  77. # [00:51] <othermaciej> I will add that many of the controls are even worse on MobileSafari than Safari or Chrome on Mac/Win/Linux
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  79. # [00:52] <Lachy> and <input type="week"> starts at the year 1583-W01 :-)
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  85. # [01:21] <paul_irish> othermaciej: do you have a recommendation on how to feature detect the new input types in safari?
  86. # [01:22] <paul_irish> assuming the tests would fail now..
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  88. # [01:24] <othermaciej> paul_irish: I hadn't thought about it - I don't know if the spec has any mechanism for feature detection
  89. # [01:25] <othermaciej> in any case feature tests would currently pass, even though our implementations are pretty crufty
  90. # [01:25] <Hixie> checking the value of input.type should work iirc
  91. # [01:25] <Hixie> iirc it'll be "text" if the type isn't supported at all
  92. # [01:25] <paul_irish> yeah.. basic approachis to check value of input.type and see if it isn't 'text' .. chrome loves to false positive with that
  93. # [01:25] <Hixie> yeah that's the problem with feature tests :-)
  94. # [01:25] <othermaciej> I believe both Chrome and Safari will claim to support almost all the types by that standard
  95. # [01:26] <othermaciej> which in a sense we do, but perhaps not in a way you would actually want to use
  96. # [01:26] <Hixie> using cutting edge feature is fraught with such difficulties
  97. # [01:26] <paul_irish> so i've been throwing text like ':)' into the value of input type="date" and reading it out.. assuming that a proper date input would only allow proper date input.. that's seemed to work so far
  98. # [01:26] <Hixie> othermaciej: i was sad to see the incomplete implementations ship, didn't expect that
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  103. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> latest HTML WG heartbeat WDs and FPWDs are now alive at http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ etc.
  104. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> for convenient access, see reverse-chronological index at http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-date-drafts
  105. # [01:49] * MikeSmith also notices http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-media-frags-20100624/
  106. # [01:49] <MikeSmith> whatever that is, it's at LC
  107. # [01:49] <MikeSmith> so perhaps worth reviewing
  108. # [01:50] * MikeSmith sees nessy1 listed there among the editors
  109. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> "specifies the syntax for constructing media fragment URIs and explains how to handle them when used over the HTTP protocol."
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  114. # [01:52] * MikeSmith notices LC of SVG 1.1 "Second Edition"
  115. # [01:52] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-SVG11-20100622/
  116. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> which appears to have a pretty big list of substantive changes
  117. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-SVG11-20100622/changes.html#Substantial
  118. # [01:54] <MikeSmith> seems the precedent set by XML 1.0 doing the "Fifth Edition" thing to incorporate substantive changes and not just errata is now firmly rooted
  119. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> that seems to perhaps be a really unfortunate trend
  120. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> anyway, the SVG 1.1 draft is at LC also
  121. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> reminds me that I want to send LC comments on MathML3 before July 1 deadline
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  123. # [01:58] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: woot!
  124. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah, sorry I didn't get them out yesterday
  125. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> I blame it on too much reefer
  126. # [01:58] <othermaciej> do you know if the w3c plans to post any kind of announcement?
  127. # [01:59] <othermaciej> or should it just be announced on the list?
  128. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> we will do an announcement soon
  129. # [01:59] <othermaciej> it would be nice if there was a single thing to link to for the set of all the new drafts
  130. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> yes
  131. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> I think we will have that by end of day US/West
  132. # [02:00] <MikeSmith> they will all be linked to in the announcement
  133. # [02:00] <othermaciej> cool beans
  134. # [02:00] <MikeSmith> Home Page News
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  138. # [02:04] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I realize you are probably long ago bored with my mentioning the processing issues of the annotation-xml element
  139. # [02:04] <MikeSmith> but I remembered something I didn't mention before
  140. # [02:05] <MikeSmith> the annotation-xml element has an "encoding" attribute
  141. # [02:05] <MikeSmith> which specifies a MIME type
  142. # [02:06] <MikeSmith> so if that is present and it specifies text/html, then seems like the parsing algorithm could use that info to do the similar behavior it does with SVG in there now
  143. # [02:06] <Hixie> that might make sense, yeah
  144. # [02:06] <Hixie> file a bug?
  145. # [02:06] <MikeSmith> so, we would not need a <div> wrapper or <body> or <html>
  146. # [02:06] <MikeSmith> yeah, I will update the bug I already opened
  147. # [02:07] <MikeSmith> after I get some sleep
  148. # [02:07] <Hixie> k
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  172. # [03:07] <boblet> Anyone know what Microformats wiki means by “Avoid the "microdata vCard" vocabulary as it is an out-of-date fork/snapshot of hCard”? http://microformats.org/wiki/html5
  173. # [03:08] <boblet> I thought Microdata vCard was based on vCard
  174. # [03:08] <boblet> are there some issues regarding this I’m not aware of?
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  177. # [03:21] <MikeSmith> boblet: I remember hearing some details from tantek about that
  178. # [03:21] <MikeSmith> maybe ping him on twitter
  179. # [03:21] <boblet> MikeSmith: ok will do, thanks
  180. # [03:22] <boblet> also have yet to check µF mail archives
  181. # [03:22] <MikeSmith> but iirc the problem is that the RFC that the microdata vCard vocab was based on is superseded now
  182. # [03:22] <MikeSmith> by an updated RFC
  183. # [03:22] <MikeSmith> which the hCard vocab is in sync with
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  185. # [03:23] <boblet> woah holy shit. They *update* RFCs?
  186. # [03:23] <MikeSmith> replace them
  187. # [03:23] <MikeSmith> new ones obsolete the old ones
  188. # [03:23] <boblet> I thought those things got carved into stone back in the mesozoic era
  189. # [03:23] <TabAtkins> Um. I'm not authorized to comment on the Issue-30 poll.
  190. # [03:24] <boblet> (which is why they’re fixed width)
  191. # [03:24] <boblet> thanks for the info MikeSmith. bbl
  192. # [03:24] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: lemme check now
  193. # [03:25] <TabAtkins> It's possible that I'm logged in as tabatkins, rather than tabatkins2
  194. # [03:26] <MikeSmith> ah
  195. # [03:26] <MikeSmith> that might be it
  196. # [03:26] <TabAtkins> I don't know how to log out of Basic Auth.
  197. # [03:27] <MikeSmith> arr, me neither
  198. # [03:27] <MikeSmith> lemme check
  199. # [03:27] * TabAtkins heads home, and will respond on Monday he guesses.
  200. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> ok
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  209. # [05:02] <Hixie> boblet: i think that's out of date -- the microdata vcard spec has been changed to just work directly from vCard rather than hCard
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  214. # [05:46] <jmcneese> howdy canvasers
  215. # [05:48] <jmcneese> so, can anyone answer if it is per spec/functionality that if i stroke a line in a canvas, it does not clear if if reset the canvas via changing the width or clearRect()?
  216. # [05:49] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  217. # [05:49] <Hixie> do you have a sample page showing the problem?
  218. # [05:49] <jmcneese> not on a reachable server.
  219. # [05:50] <jmcneese> it's simple to replicate. start with an empty canvas. draw a line down the center. do a clearRect() on the canvas. the line stays
  220. # [05:51] <jmcneese> curious if i'm missing a step
  221. # [05:53] <Hixie> what arguments are you passing clearRect()?
  222. # [05:56] <jmcneese> 0,0,CANVASWIDTH,CANVASHEIGHT
  223. # [05:56] <jmcneese> it's working for any canvas i draw actual shapes on (rects, arcs, etc)
  224. # [05:57] <Hixie> so like:
  225. # [05:57] <Hixie> c.beginPath();
  226. # [05:57] <Hixie> c.moveTo(100,100);
  227. # [05:57] <Hixie> c.lineTo(200,300);
  228. # [05:57] <Hixie> c.stroke();
  229. # [05:57] <Hixie> c.clearRect(0, 0, 640, 480);
  230. # [05:57] <Hixie> ...doesn't work?
  231. # [05:57] <Hixie> (where c is the context of course)
  232. # [05:58] <jmcneese> aha... is beginPath required?
  233. # [05:58] <Hixie> unless you do beginPath(), you're just adding to the last line each time
  234. # [05:58] <Hixie> stroke() doesn't reset the path
  235. # [05:59] <jmcneese> ok, noted. but i don't see how that prevents the line from clearing when calling clearRect
  236. # [05:59] <Hixie> e.g. try:
  237. # [05:59] <Hixie> c.lineWidth=100; c.strokeStyle = 'red'; c.stroke();
  238. # [05:59] <Hixie> c.lineWidth=50; c.strokeStyle = 'orange'; c.stroke();
  239. # [05:59] <Hixie> c.lineWidth=10; c.strokeStyle = 'yellow'; c.stroke();
  240. # [06:00] <Hixie> well it's not that it prevents the line from being cleared, so much as you're probably calling stroke() again after you clear
  241. # [06:00] <Hixie> e.g. on a timer or something
  242. # [06:00] <Hixie> right?
  243. # [06:00] <Hixie> hard to say without seeing the code
  244. # [06:00] <jmcneese> i am calling redraw on mousedrag
  245. # [06:01] <jmcneese> now, since i couldn't get it to clear the lines for a grid, i ended up drawing rectangles (with three sides off canvas), which clear just fine
  246. # [06:02] <Hixie> yeah the rect methods don't affect the path
  247. # [06:03] <Hixie> so they wouldn't get added each time
  248. # [06:03] <Hixie> the key is just that all the liens you add to the path don't get reset until you call beginPath() again
  249. # [06:03] <jmcneese> so, paths must be aha
  250. # [06:03] <jmcneese> that makes sense
  251. # [06:06] <jmcneese> thanks mate
  252. # [06:06] <Hixie> np
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  262. # [08:02] <boblet> Hixie: re: vcard & hcard, I’m guessing that the microdata vcard and vevent specs have been updated to the latest RFCs right? (apparently the reason for the microformats.org comment)
  263. # [08:02] <boblet> if so I’ll edit the wiki or contact Tantek about it
  264. # [08:02] <Hixie> have the RFCs changed recently?
  265. # [08:03] <Hixie> like in the last year?
  266. # [08:08] <boblet> Hixie: Mike seemed to think that was the reason. Will do some digging…
  267. # [08:13] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  268. # [08:14] <Hixie> i know there was some work to update the rfcs, but i haven't updated the vocabs to the new ones if that's it
  269. # [08:14] <Hixie> i didn't think hcard had been updated to them either though
  270. # [08:16] <boblet> Hixie: yeah it seems vcard 1.1 is still draft anyhow: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-vcarddav-vcardrev/
  271. # [08:17] <Hixie> k
  272. # [08:17] <boblet> guess I’ll have to ping tantek and see what was meant by those statements. seems a bit strange
  273. # [08:28] * Joins: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-6-140.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
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  279. # [09:02] <annevk> oh look
  280. # [09:02] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/News/2010#entry-8843
  281. # [09:02] <annevk> yay for Mike
  282. # [09:06] <MikeSmithX> annevk: yay for editors getting their work done
  283. # [09:06] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  284. # [09:06] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@213.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  285. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw, thanks for all the time you spent on responding to comments about the diffs doc
  286. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> I know it took a lot of time
  287. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> and most people have no idea how much time and work goes into
  288. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> but it's a very useful document to have available
  289. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> for people who are trying to follow the changes
  290. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> and especially for people who are just starting to read up on HTML5
  291. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> when people ask me where to start with learning about HTML5, I always tell them to start with reading that document
  292. # [09:10] <annevk> cool man
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  296. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> so along with getting updated WDs published and despite all the drama, all the actually important stuff still keeps on getting done
  297. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> e.g., giantly newsworthy stuff like canvas support finally being added to IE
  298. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> which the IE tech people deserve a lot of serious congrats for
  299. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> despite it taking some time to make it happen
  300. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> two years from now nobody will even remember that it took so long
  301. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> well I guess we may remember
  302. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> but nobody else will
  303. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> and then all kinds of other bits of important work are steadily and mostly quietly getting done
  304. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> e.g., moving ahead with getting agreement on Notifications
  305. # [09:17] <annevk> the way WebKit reverses what to switch first on in the tree builder is interesting
  306. # [09:17] <annevk> what you pointed out in a blog post
  307. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> heh
  308. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  309. # [09:17] <annevk> euh tweet
  310. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> that's a good example
  311. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> abarth was talking about that a little bit here a few hours back
  312. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> example of "there's more than one way to skin a cat"
  313. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> dunno what that equivalent idiom is elsewhere
  314. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> I don't know if that began as a UK idiom or a US one
  315. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> seems like a US one
  316. # [09:19] * MikeSmith tries to think of a less opaque idiom to capture that same meaning
  317. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> annevk: dunno how many people in this world would judge that to be interesting
  318. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> I mean, I did not because I know a whole lot but mostly because I had spent time looking at hsivonen htmlparser code
  319. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> and htmllib
  320. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> and not just looking at in the case of hsivonen code
  321. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> but actually copying and tweaking it
  322. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> for the xml-stylesheet checking feature that I added to validator.nu a while back
  323. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> needed it for pseudo-attribute-value parsing
  324. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> so it is really interesting to compare, anyway
  325. # [09:25] <boblet> who’s in charge of the W3 CSS validator? and will they ever change vendor prefixes from error to warning? ;-)
  326. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> boblet: not sure who is currently
  327. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> DanC rewrote it recently
  328. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> or wrote a new one
  329. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> hmm, not sure if that is public info
  330. # [09:25] <boblet> it is now :)
  331. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> well, maybe there was an announcement about it
  332. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> I don't keep up with it so much
  333. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> anyway, DanC wrote something in Scala
  334. # [09:26] <boblet> I might ask on wwwstyle
  335. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> part of the problem with getting people interested in working on the current CSS validator code is that it's written in Java
  336. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> which must people immediately just say "ick"
  337. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> Philippe le Hegaret wrote the CSS validator originally, I think
  338. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> boblet: lemme go look at the source repo know and see who's working on it currently
  339. # [09:28] <boblet> thanks MikeSmith
  340. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> boblet: btw, did you figure out what actual difference there are between vcard microformat and hcard one?
  341. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> I remember tantek telling me what the differences were and I remember those differences between important
  342. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> but I can't remember now that the differences actually are :(
  343. # [09:29] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  344. # [09:30] <boblet> MikeSmith: no. am planning to ping Tantek after checking µF email archives. the notes were added Oct 2009 though, so I’m guessing it’s something to do with the old hcard-based Microdata vcard (although currently it’s RFC2426-based so theoretically no worries)
  345. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> OK
  346. # [09:31] * Quits: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-230.uwaterloo.ca) (Quit: Leaving.)
  347. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> boblet: I find http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/css-validator/org/w3c/css/css/
  348. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> etc.
  349. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> and I remember that my W3C sempai Yves Lafon is the main one making CSS validator maintenance changes these days
  350. # [09:33] <boblet> heh, searching http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator-css/ atm
  351. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> most recent change seems to be from 7 days ago
  352. # [09:33] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  353. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> boblet: anyway, it is very much one of those "squeaky wheel gets the grease" kind of things
  354. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> if you really want some particular changes made, file a bugzilla bug
  355. # [09:34] <boblet> MikeSmith: thanks. will squeak a bit then :)
  356. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> and feel free to Cc me on the bug, at mike@w3.org
  357. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> and I can then harass Yves about it until he his tired of me mentioning it
  358. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> boblet: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=CSSValidator
  359. # [09:35] <boblet> cheers — will do!
  360. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> yeah, please do
  361. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> also consider mentioning it on the www-validator list, and including a link to the bug
  362. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> and others who are interested can add themselves to the Cc for the bug
  363. # [09:37] <boblet> har, paul_irish bet me by 10 days http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9932
  364. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> well, there you go
  365. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> God is clearly on your side
  366. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> and paul_irish is one of his secret agents
  367. # [09:38] * MikeSmith adds himself to the Cc for that bug
  368. # [09:38] <boblet> Thank science! … uh thank God!
  369. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> I suspect I might probably be able to make that change relatively quickly and easily myself
  370. # [09:39] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  371. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> but I'm not going to try
  372. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> because if I start fixing css validator bugs, I will then become at least partially responsible for maintaining it too
  373. # [09:40] <boblet> ref http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator-css/2009Jul/0002.html
  374. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> thanks
  375. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> yipes
  376. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> [[
  377. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> > /* Do not Validate BEGIN */
  378. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> > -moz-....
  379. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> > -webkit-...
  380. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> > /* Do not Validate END */
  381. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> ]]
  382. # [09:41] * Joins: everton (~everton@KD118153063184.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp)
  383. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> yuck
  384. # [09:42] <boblet> yeah I agree with Yann. but if the reason they generate an error is the starting hyphen, that’s bs
  385. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> well, I hope some people can step up to the plate to help Yves out with maintenance
  386. # [09:42] <boblet> if the validator doesn’t validate them (and assuming hyphen is the correct way to add a vendor prefix) they should be a warning not error
  387. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> true I guess
  388. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> but there are many other things that the CSS validator is not handling
  389. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> CSS3 stuff
  390. # [09:43] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  391. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> it is to the point that pretty much every working-draft we go to publish these days, when I check it with the W3C "pubrules" checker, which includes a CSS check, I get errors about the CSS
  392. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> which I and pubs team now pretty much just have to ignore
  393. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> because most of them are spurious
  394. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> and so that defeats the purpose of having a CSS check to begin with
  395. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> so we really should fix it
  396. # [09:45] * Quits: Heimidal_ (~heimidal@c-71-237-116-77.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  397. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> I am pretty sure that Yves would be very happy to hand over the reins to anybody who could commit to helping with it
  398. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> and who had the coding chops
  399. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> or would at least be willing to spend some time learning
  400. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> I wish I could make time to help out with it myself
  401. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> but I would be the wrong person to do it anyway
  402. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> since I don't know jack about CSS
  403. # [09:47] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-170-165-184.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  404. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> boblet: learn some little Java, and you can get commit access and make the changes yourself directly
  405. # [09:48] <boblet> will add it to my list of things to do ＞＿＜
  406. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> or maybe you know some Java already
  407. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> but you are keeping it quiet
  408. # [09:49] <boblet> har!
  409. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> so that you don't get stuck with maintaining the code
  410. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> I'm on to you, man
  411. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> boblet: btw, DanC's new code is at http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/css-val/
  412. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/css-val/file/f5931981d7dd/
  413. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/css-val/raw-file/f5931981d7dd/README.html
  414. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> Scala seems to be relatively easier and less painful to learn than Java
  415. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> and more forgiving, maybe
  416. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> "CSS syntax evolves in a backward- and forward-compatible way; the CSS 2.1 specification includes a uniform grammar, applicable to all CSS versions. The original (2002) W3C CSS Validator predates this uniform grammar and maintenance is becoming an undue burden as a result. This is an attempt to build a validator using the uniform syntax."
  417. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> hmm, so sounds like we are in pretty much the same situation with the CSS validator that we are with the current W3C Markup Validator
  418. # [09:52] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cable.casema.nl)
  419. # [09:53] <boblet> hrm, hopefully DanC gets some volunteers then eh
  420. # [09:53] <boblet> ok bbl, the little princess demands I play with her
  421. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> from what Dan says there, I can see that the existing CSS validator code, like the existing W3C Markup Validator code, is based on an obsolete backend, and we are not getting a good return on investment for the time we might put into maintaining it any further
  422. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> we just need to replace it
  423. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> boblet: k
  424. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> annevk: (if you are around) do you know, is there a formal grammar for CSS3
  425. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> ?
  426. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> yet
  427. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> I don't know what "uniform grammar" means
  428. # [10:01] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-249-225.dynamic.qsc.de)
  429. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> I have serious misgivings about basing checking in a validator on a formal grammar to begin with
  430. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> but maybe the CSS case is different than others
  431. # [10:02] * MikeSmith finds http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-syntax/
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  433. # [10:02] <annevk> hmm not really
  434. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-syntax/#detailed-grammar
  435. # [10:02] <annevk> we just patch the CSS 2.1 grammar basically
  436. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> annevk: seems like dbaron is working on that
  437. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> oh
  438. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> well, that's better than nothing
  439. # [10:03] <annevk> css3-syntax is hopelessly out of date
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  441. # [10:03] <annevk> it's from 2003
  442. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-syntax/#lexical
  443. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> ah
  444. # [10:03] <annevk> many many grammar changes have been made since then
  445. # [10:03] * Parts: AnthonyCat (~AnthonyCa@CPE-58-175-25-194.mqdl1.lon.bigpond.net.au)
  446. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> yet another spec in need of an active editor
  447. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> I wish the people who aren't otherwise actually yet doing editing or implementing or testing or documenting but instead seem to have endless amounts of time to repeatedly engage in process discussions ad nauseam might actually consider trying to really help out
  448. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> help out in other ways than suggesting ways to fix decision process, etc.
  449. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> which is not to say that is not useful as well
  450. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> but damn
  451. # [10:08] <annevk> everyone their talent I guess o_O
  452. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> well, everybody benefits from us having an up-to-date CSS validator
  453. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> that groks CSS3
  454. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> and we need some sound modern backend to base it on
  455. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> rather than throwing good money after bad on the old one
  456. # [10:09] <annevk> yeah, done in such a way that Validator.nu can invoke it, too
  457. # [10:10] <annevk> Validator.nu code, that is
  458. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> yeah
  459. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> and we need a good grammar to use for that -- to base the CSS checker on .. and a we need a good spec to hold that.. and we need an active editor for the spec
  460. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> everyone their talent, yeah
  461. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> but christ
  462. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> it is not a massive undertaking for somebody who's already smart to learn a little bit about how to write a grammar
  463. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> and to do a little bit of spec editing maybe
  464. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> we ain't asking for the world here
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  466. # [10:15] * MikeSmith notices a typo in home-page news for announcement of updated HTML WG drafts
  467. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> s/machine-readable date/machine-readable data/
  468. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> dam
  469. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> mnit
  470. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> my fault, too
  471. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> but I don't have perms to change it now
  472. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> ah well
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  493. # [11:38] <boblet> foolip: yt?
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  497. # [12:25] <Philip`> "why do we care about 1%? Who decided where we draw the line?" - I thought it was 1% because there's lots of Opera people in the group and Opera isn't much more than 1%
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  499. # [12:43] <gsnedders> boblet: Probably flying now.
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  501. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw, update of diffs doc has already been added to the Japanese translation at html5.jp
  502. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/futomi/status/17073669143
  503. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> http://www.html5.jp/trans/w3c_differences.html
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  534. # [14:36] <Philip`> The W3C Test Suite License seems to have not been designed with the idea of including its text in the files you're going to distribute under the license
  535. # [14:37] <Philip`> since it uses hyperlinks and bold and italic and non-ASCII
  536. # [14:43] <boblet> gsnedders: ok thanks
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  539. # [15:26] <erlehmann> can anyone advise me on this issue ? wordpress is using <em> and <strong> by default, but the buttons are marked <i> and <b> http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/10465
  540. # [15:27] <erlehmann> it's just too dumb and i don't know how to tell them to change this.
  541. # [15:27] <erlehmann> last time i tried, they kicked me out of #wordpress :/
  542. # [15:32] <Philip`> erlehmann: Since i/em and b/strong are synonyms in practice, it seems a waste of time to try to get them to change
  543. # [15:34] <erlehmann> Philip`, but emphazised text is different from italiced text (like names that need to be set apart from the regular flow of text), especially in quotes.
  544. # [15:34] <erlehmann> also, these buttons confuse me.
  545. # [15:34] <erlehmann> all other buttons do what's on the label :(
  546. # [15:35] <Philip`> erlehmann: Few people care about the distinction, and the people who do care are usually on the wrong side, so it doesn't seem a good fight to get into :-)
  547. # [15:36] <erlehmann> fine. i will call my next helper script „bake_cake.zsh“ then. but make it burn the users home directory. huehuehue
  548. # [15:41] <Philip`> I've already learned not to trust anyone who promises to bake me a cake, so that's fine
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  552. # [16:03] <gsnedders> Oooo! Cake nom nom!
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  561. # [17:00] <jgraham> gsnedders: No! You can't om nom ... oh wait what? Ah. I've just ben told that om noming cake is fine. As you were.
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  566. # [17:17] <erlehmann> gsnedders, jgraham, the WHATWG wishes to remind you that upon completion of the spec, there will be cake.
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  569. # [17:22] <boblet> erlehmann: cake that deletes completed specs?
  570. # [17:25] <boblet> in foolip’s excellent http://foolip.org/microdatajs/live/ the hcard in <span itemprop="location" itemscope itemtype="http://microformats.org/profile/hcard"> isn’t shown unless the itemprop="location" is removed. looks like a bug
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  576. # [17:48] <boblet> nimbupani inna house!
  577. # [17:48] <nimbupani> yo boblet !!
  578. # [17:48] <nimbupani> emoticon koan guru :)
  579. # [17:48] <boblet> so was it the 微妙 or the … aah, the emoticons huh
  580. # [17:48] <boblet> :|
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  582. # [17:48] <boblet> didn’t realise I was being so deep ;-)
  583. # [17:50] <nimbupani> boblet: you were very deep coz I did not understand 微妙 :)
  584. # [17:51] <boblet> bimyou = Japanese for dodgy or iffy
  585. # [17:51] <nimbupani> ohh okie :)
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  599. # [18:32] <boblet> hixie: yt?
  600. # [18:32] <boblet> or anyone into microdata?
  601. # [18:33] <boblet> when I add itemscope to a property, that property now represents the contained item’s name-value pairs, but does it also have a value of all contained text as well?
  602. # [18:36] <boblet> eg <p itemprop="members" itemscope>The band is <b itemprop="name">Bob</b> and <b itemprop="name>Sally</b></p>; members = contained name-value pairs (name:Bob, name:Sally) only, or also the value “The band is Bob and Sally.”?
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  639. # [22:21] <Hixie> has hober been around recently?
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The end :)