/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-07-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jul 03 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <MikeSmith> when my daughter was 8, I spoke more like an 8-year-old Japanese girl... so, I'm making progress
  4. # [00:01] <jgraham> I heard a story the other day about some (English? Swedish?) parents who moved to Portugal, put their kid in daycare a lot and ended up with a kid that spoke only Portugese, whilst they knew no Portugese
  5. # [00:01] <jgraham> Kinda sad
  6. # [00:01] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, so eventually you'll sound exactly like an adult Japanese woman?
  7. # [00:01] <AryehGregor> jgraham, that's why you keep them at home a lot and speak exclusively in your native language there.
  8. # [00:01] <AryehGregor> Only way to do it.
  9. # [00:02] <MikeSmith> jgraham: immigration policies in Japan are slowly being relaxed.. Japanese birthrate is such that everybody is realizing increased immigration is going to be needed in order to sustain things
  10. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> At the age of four, my mother apparently talked to the maid in Japanese, but she forgot it all.
  11. # [00:02] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It seems unfortunate not to end up with bilingual children in that situation
  12. # [00:03] <AryehGregor> It's like one child per mother average, right? Population halving every generation.
  13. # [00:03] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: yeah, eventually :) but we are a few years away from that yet
  14. # [00:03] <jgraham> Since being bilingual is supposed to be generally awesome
  15. # [00:03] <MikeSmith> (about sounding like a grown-up)
  16. # [00:03] <AryehGregor> jgraham, they learn the local language in school or whatever, and your language at home. Everyone wins.
  17. # [00:03] * jgraham is far too monolingual
  18. # [00:03] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i left switzerland when i was 10, so i speak french like a ten year old kid, if that makes you feel better :-)
  19. # [00:03] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Exactly
  20. # [00:04] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: the other thing is that people on average live a very long time in Japan, and remain healthy, so the population is really aging
  21. # [00:04] <MikeSmith> Hixie: heh :)
  22. # [00:04] <AryehGregor> Longest average lifespan in the world.
  23. # [00:04] <jgraham> My Swedish is marginally worse than my three-year-old not-really-niece
  24. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> Not-really-niece?
  25. # [00:05] <jgraham> s/marginally//
  26. # [00:05] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Well she is my g/f's niece
  27. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> Ah.
  28. # [00:05] <Hixie> how about onentercue and onexitcue, rather than onactive and oninactive
  29. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> Possible-eventual-niece-in-law?
  30. # [00:05] <jgraham> (her sister in law is Swedish, but lives in England)
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  32. # [00:06] <Hixie> or just onenter and onexit
  33. # [00:06] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Nah, don't believe in marriage
  34. # [00:06] <Hixie> any opinions?
  35. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> :/
  36. # [00:06] <jgraham> (unless it becomes a legal necessity)
  37. # [00:06] <MikeSmith> Hixie: onenter and onexit are easier to read than onentercue and onexitcue, I think
  38. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> It's totally unclear that they're cue-related, though.
  39. # [00:06] <MikeSmith> true
  40. # [00:06] <Hixie> MikeSmith: k
  41. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> I'd go for something with "cue" in it.
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  43. # [00:07] <Hixie> should i fire oncuechange on each TimedTrack whose cues changed (and maybe on the <track> element also?), or should I just fire it on the <video> element?
  44. # [00:07] <Hixie> (there's no details data with the event, if you want data you have to hook into each cue you care about)
  45. # [00:08] <Hixie> i guess per-track is what you need to do slides and stuff
  46. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> Individual cues, and per-track.
  47. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> Do they bubble?
  48. # [00:09] <Hixie> no
  49. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Good.
  50. # [00:09] <Hixie> nothing to bubble to, these aren't DOM nodes
  51. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Oh, right.
  52. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> I'm probably dumb, but how do you hook into a cue to grab events if it's not a DOM node?
  53. # [00:10] <Hixie> video.tracks[n].cues[m].onenter = mycallback;
  54. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> Got it.
  55. # [00:10] <Hixie> and video.tracks[n].oncuechange = mycallback;
  56. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> Then yeah, on the tracks/<track>, and on the cue itself.
  57. # [00:11] <Hixie> (or trackElement.track.cues[n].onenter = mycallback)
  58. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Though... Without any details data in the event, not quite sure what you'd do with the event on the track.
  59. # [00:11] <Hixie> well you can easily get the list of active tracks
  60. # [00:11] <Hixie> so if you know there's only one active one at a time (e.g. the active slide) then you just do track.activeCues[0].whatever
  61. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Ok, but it doesn't help you do slides, since a single slide can easily have multiple cues.
  62. # [00:12] <Hixie> by slides i mean if you have a track (kind=metadata) whose data is just the IDs of the slides to show for each segment of the audio track
  63. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> Oh, I see. And would *that* information be gettable from the event fired at the track?
  64. # [00:13] * MikeSmith finds that all this talk of ’cues is making him hungry, steps out to grab some breakfast
  65. # [00:13] <Hixie> <track kind=metadata src="myslides.srt" oncuechange="changeToSlide(track.activeCues[0].getCueAsSource())">
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  67. # [00:14] <Hixie> assuming the text of each of your cues is whatever changeToSlide() is expecting as an argument
  68. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Got it. (I don't know enough about the api you're defining right now to ask intelligent questions.)
  69. # [00:14] <Hixie> heh
  70. # [00:14] <Hixie> neither do i :-P
  71. # [00:14] <Hixie> so dumb questions will have to suffice
  72. # [00:15] <Hixie> right now i'm porting the text i'd commented out for cue ranges to work with the new API
  73. # [00:15] <Hixie> i knew i'd reuse it eventually, glad i didn't delete it!
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  76. # [00:21] <AryehGregor> http://www.imperialviolet.org/2010/06/25/overclocking-ssl.html
  77. # [00:21] <AryehGregor> Yay for SSL that takes zero extra round trips in the common case.
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  81. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> Cool!
  82. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> Now, if only browsers weren't retarded about self-signed certs.
  83. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> I'm waiting for DNSSEC on that score.
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  89. # [00:34] <AryehGregor> What sites allow all Flash embeds?
  90. # [00:34] <AryehGregor> That sounds crazy.
  91. # [00:35] <AryehGregor> Or maybe not totally crazy? I don't know the rules for how <object> works, actually.
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  128. # [01:07] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/facebook_the_semantic_web.php
  129. # [01:07] <MikeSmith> if you've not found it already
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  131. # [01:08] <MikeSmith> Richard MacManus talking with David Recordon
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  133. # [01:08] <MikeSmith> about Open Graph
  134. # [01:09] <MikeSmith> http://developers.facebook.com/docs/opengraph
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  178. # [03:13] <othermaciej> hole moley, blogger.com allows embedding of arbitrary SWFs!
  179. # [03:13] <othermaciej> can someone look at this page and tell me if they see both Flash objects? http://subtlesweetness.blogspot.com/2010/07/blog-post.html
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  183. # [03:23] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I see both
  184. # [03:24] <othermaciej> I think maybe it's safe because they have a separate domain per user and comments on a separate domain
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  186. # [03:25] <Workshiva> Remind me, any reason to avoid the flash 10.1 upgrade?
  187. # [03:25] <Workshiva> (+Dear lazy IRC)
  188. # [03:26] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: dinnet know they had comments on a separate domain
  189. # [03:27] <MikeSmith> Workshiva: you can't avoid it
  190. # [03:27] <MikeSmith> that's the beauty of it
  191. # [03:27] <Workshiva> Really? Because the box is telling me "don't install" and "remind me later" are valid options
  192. # [03:28] <MikeSmith> well yeah
  193. # [03:28] <MikeSmith> there is that
  194. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> but eventually you will relent
  195. # [03:29] <Philip`> Workshiva: Do you care about critical security vulnerabilities?
  196. # [03:29] * MikeSmith puts on his marketing hat
  197. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> "critical" is such a harsh word
  198. # [03:30] <MikeSmith> also "vulnerabilities"
  199. # [03:30] <MikeSmith> those scare people
  200. # [03:30] * Philip` notices that Firefox recently gave a very prominent startup notice saying to upgrade Flash
  201. # [03:30] <MikeSmith> so let's not use those terms
  202. # [03:30] <Workshiva> Philip`: Well, mostly I care about "will not hose my computer before I even start a browser"
  203. # [03:34] <MikeSmith> FYI http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/newstd2/ is wide open to anybody who cares to take the time to respond
  204. # [03:34] <MikeSmith> there's a category, "browser or other software developer"
  205. # [03:34] <MikeSmith> use that one if you are an actual web browser
  206. # [03:35] <MikeSmith> or I suppose, if you are a browser engine, that'd be OK to
  207. # [03:35] <MikeSmith> just make sure to indicate your version number
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  226. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> fwiw, I added per-element "Microdata property value" subsections to my markup reference doc
  227. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> e.g., http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/iframe.html#iframe-microdata
  228. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> not a big deal
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  230. # [04:50] <MikeSmith> but nice to have at point-of-use, I think
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  232. # [04:51] <MikeSmith> the section just describes what the defined means is for determining the Microdata property value for that element
  233. # [04:51] <MikeSmith> just based on info at http://dev.w3.org/html5/md/#values
  234. # [04:53] <MikeSmith> for most elements it just says "The text content of the element."
  235. # [04:53] <MikeSmith> e.g., http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/table.html#table-microdata
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  325. # [13:52] * karlcow wonders if hsivonen issues about w3c licences for inclusion in open source software is recorded somewhere on W3C website? Bugzilla?
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  338. # [14:41] <Slaanesh> Hey krijnh , how about those next and previous links at the bottom of each log page ;)
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  364. # [15:49] <krijnh> Slaanesh: they will be there in version 5.0 :)
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  367. # [15:56] <annevk> karlcow, it's recorded in archived email messages :)
  368. # [15:56] <Philip`> krijnh: What's the current version number?
  369. # [16:00] <krijnh> 3.2
  370. # [16:03] <Philip`> Ah, 5.0 isn't too far off then, unless you're doing TeX-style convergence to a number that is less than 5.0
  371. # [16:04] <annevk> counting down to π
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  373. # [16:04] <krijnh> I'm still looking for a company that will fund me, so I can work full-time on the logs :)
  374. # [16:05] <krijnh> Already applied at Google, but their response was something like "Are you kidding? We don't fucking care about your stupid logs."
  375. # [16:05] <krijnh> So I'm now a bit depressed
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  378. # [16:23] <Philip`> krijnh: Make it a subscription-only service
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  380. # [16:23] <Philip`> Then you'll have plenty of money to handle all the feature requests
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  382. # [16:25] <Slaanesh> krijnh: Make it open source, then complain about nobody wanting to help
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  386. # [16:37] <karlcow> annevk: yes. I was wondering if there would be an easy pointer to a summary of the issue and the arguments already exposed. :)
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  395. # [17:40] <boblet> so is there any significance in whether a microdata item is top-level or not?
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  404. # [18:09] * boblet wishes there was an http://h2vx.com/ equivalent for microdata
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  407. # [18:21] <Slaanesh> boblet: I would assume the only difference is whether it shows up with document.getItems
  408. # [18:22] <boblet> Slaanesh: but nothing supports the API yet right?
  409. # [18:22] <Slaanesh> I don't know, but probably not
  410. # [18:23] <boblet> and even then shouldn’t all items show up?
  411. # [18:24] <Slaanesh> getItems explicitly says it only returns top-level items
  412. # [18:26] <Philip`> When I last looked, if I remember, top-level status affected RDF conversion too (it adds a triple from the document to each top-level item)
  413. # [18:27] <boblet> oh interesting. thank you both (non-programmer so these API things are a bit of a black box)
  414. # [18:28] <Philip`> s/remember/remember correctly/
  415. # [18:28] <Philip`> (It was probably a year ago and it's probably changed and/or I've probably forgotten the details)
  416. # [18:31] <boblet> another microdata thing that is confusing me is <meta content="">. I know that current browsers pull <meta> into <head>, but last time I asked here the suggestion was to change to a <span> and hide via CSS
  417. # [18:32] <boblet> wouldn’t it be fine to just add an id then use itemref to refer to it?
  418. # [18:33] <boblet> again I expect there’s probably some API/implementation issue that meant whoever suggested the hidden span hack to me not suggesting it, but not sure
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  420. # [18:45] <Slaanesh> boblet: I don't understand the problem at all. The browsers that move meta to head are also browsers that don't support microdata anyway
  421. # [18:45] <Slaanesh> And presumably meta in body will be fixed before or at the same time as microdata support being added in a given browser
  422. # [18:45] <boblet> Slaanesh: you could be using the microdata via an external JS library like metadatajs
  423. # [18:46] <boblet> although your point is valid for the microdata API
  424. # [18:46] <Slaanesh> Ah, didn't think of third party libraries
  425. # [18:47] <boblet> well, there’s only one ;)
  426. # [18:47] <Slaanesh> In that case, wouldn't using an id cause the creation of a subitem?
  427. # [18:47] <Slaanesh> The span solution keeps the structure the same
  428. # [18:50] <boblet> I don’t think there’s any requirement for itemref targets to be items. they can be just a property like <meta id="" itemprop="" content="" >
  429. # [18:52] <boblet> I’m really surprised that the API only returns top-level items. does that mean a tree or does that mean nested items are hidden?
  430. # [18:55] <micheil> Hixie: hmm.. I thought the ieft hybi mailing list would've been a really busy mailing list.. turns out it isn't much at the moment
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  432. # [18:59] <Slaanesh> boblet: Nested items are properties of the items they are nested in
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  435. # [19:00] <boblet> Slaanesh: aah, yeah that’s what I thought. thanks
  436. # [19:00] <Slaanesh> It's like a tree, except I think we established at some point it's actually a DEAG
  437. # [19:00] <Slaanesh> *DAG
  438. # [19:00] <boblet> ?
  439. # [19:01] <boblet> hitting the wall. thanks for your help Slaanesh
  440. # [19:02] <Slaanesh> A DAG is sort of like a tree, but the branches can merge back together
  441. # [19:02] <Slaanesh> Because multiple items can refer to the same subitem
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  443. # [19:03] <boblet> Slaanesh: nice explanation, thanks
  444. # [19:03] <boblet> nn all
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  447. # [19:11] <micheil> KrocCamen: long time, no see.
  448. # [19:11] <micheil> KrocCamen: goodmorrow fine sir.
  449. # [19:15] <KrocCamen> Goodmorrow :)
  450. # [19:16] <KrocCamen> Erm, what is it now—miksago, that’s it. Thought I recognised the name.
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  466. # [20:55] <Hixie> micheil: the hybi list is busy each time i e-mail it (with people telling me i'm making bad decisions), and quiets down if i don't post for a while
  467. # [20:55] <micheil> ah, fair enough
  468. # [20:55] <micheil> well, at any rate, I'll be listening in for anything if there's need for an end developer to weigh in
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  470. # [21:00] <Hixie> cool
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The end :)