/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-07-04 / end

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  72. # [04:49] <TelFiRE> Is there a badge or something I can display on my site for HTML5?
  73. # [04:53] <aho> people who care will use a validator
  74. # [04:53] <aho> but yes, there certainly are badges for this stuff.
  75. # [04:54] <TelFiRE> no, people who have no idea what it is but recognize that it's "cool" will not. It's a buzz word now. And I've been scouring the web for about an hour and all I can find is this. Is this official? http://reviews.cnet.com/i/bto/20100126/HTML5Icon.png
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  116. # [09:55] <estellevw> I found 2 issues in browser rendering that may be more of a spec bug than a browser bug
  117. # [09:55] <estellevw> anyone here listening, though, before I dive in?
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  121. # [10:16] <Slaanesh> estellevw: Dive in first, get resonse later :)
  122. # [10:16] <Slaanesh> *response
  123. # [10:16] <Slaanesh> People read the backlog and respond asynchronously
  124. # [10:17] <estellevw> Thinking SVG may be better for the SVG working group
  125. # [10:17] <estellevw> but basically ... background position is not working correctly
  126. # [10:17] <estellevw> when using background-image: url(file.svg);
  127. # [10:18] <estellevw> and the last mention i can find in the archives is 2008 i think
  128. # [10:18] <othermaciej> in which browser?
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  130. # [10:19] <estellevw> my sandbox is http://www.standardista.com/sandbox/testofsvgbgimage.html
  131. # [10:19] <estellevw> in Opera and Safari
  132. # [10:19] <estellevw> both support svg as background image
  133. # [10:20] <estellevw> sandbox is ugly, but i have just been testing diffferent stuff
  134. # [10:20] <estellevw> the grey bar in that test should have a background image
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  136. # [10:20] <estellevw> but i can only call a background image the size of the current element
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  138. # [10:21] <estellevw> if the elmeent is 120px tall, i can only posistion up to background-position: 0 -119px to see a 1px sliver
  139. # [10:21] <estellevw> even though the contents of the svg are taller
  140. # [10:21] <estellevw> i didn't declare a height on the svg itself
  141. # [10:21] <estellevw> i'll try that next
  142. # [10:21] <estellevw> but seems like a bug either way
  143. # [10:22] <estellevw> the only conversation i could find on the issue was this thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0025.html
  144. # [10:22] <othermaciej> wouldn't setting background-y of -60px and setting no-repeat cause the whole SVG to render outside the grey element?
  145. # [10:23] <othermaciej> the Web Inspector certainly thinks those properties are set in Safari
  146. # [10:23] <estellevw> the bg position is -60... it pushes the background image up 60 pixels, so the background image should start at ht e60px mark on the svg
  147. # [10:24] <estellevw> -30 works - the image covers half the element, but gets cut off
  148. # [10:24] <othermaciej> how tall is the SVG's natural size?
  149. # [10:25] <othermaciej> does it have one? (I guess that would be by declaring a viewbox?)
  150. # [10:25] <othermaciej> did you try using -webkit-background-size?
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  152. # [10:25] <othermaciej> that should work to resize the image if you want to make it bigger and then reposition it
  153. # [10:25] <Slaanesh> The natural height seems to be around 230px
  154. # [10:27] <estellevw> i'll try that
  155. # [10:27] <othermaciej> it might be that it scales to the size of the element, unless you adjust it with background-size or something
  156. # [10:28] <estellevw> it does, but sizing it isnt' helping
  157. # [10:29] <estellevw> it does scale to the elment.... which is why i brought it up here.
  158. # [10:29] <estellevw> seems like this needs to be either specified or explained in the spec. I didn't see it
  159. # [10:29] <estellevw> there
  160. # [10:29] <Slaanesh> Hmm
  161. # [10:30] <Slaanesh> Sort of looks like the svg is rendered to fit the element's box, so when you background-position it upwards, the content that should be visible just isn't there
  162. # [10:31] <othermaciej> I would expect -webkit-background-size to have an effect
  163. # [10:34] <estellevw> found the solution
  164. # [10:34] <estellevw> the size has to be declared in the SVG
  165. # [10:34] <estellevw> I'll go over the spec with a finer tooth comb to see if i missed that
  166. # [10:35] <estellevw> and file a bug to add htat language in if i dont' see it
  167. # [10:35] <Slaanesh> I'd say there's still a bug
  168. # [10:35] <estellevw> if you refresh that link
  169. # [10:35] <estellevw> it's working
  170. # [10:35] <Slaanesh> It might be undefined how to size a svg with non-explicit size, but surely it shouldn't crop
  171. # [10:35] <estellevw> oh, that is a no repeat
  172. # [10:35] <estellevw> and i set the width to 600
  173. # [10:36] <estellevw> it makes sense that the size of an image should be defined, so defining the size of the svg made sense
  174. # [10:36] <estellevw> i just don't remember that being required in the spec
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  177. # [10:48] <Slaanesh> http://www.pvv.org/~magnusrk/test/svgsprite.html
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  180. # [10:50] <Slaanesh> Can't see how it looks in Safari here, though
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  197. # [12:54] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  198. # [12:54] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  199. # [12:56] <boblet> anyone know what “the URL given as the item type should not be automatically dereferenced” or “Item types are opaque identifiers” means? #microdata
  200. # [12:57] * boblet remembers irc isn’t twitter
  201. # [13:03] <Philip`> boblet: It means they should be treated as meaningless strings, not as URLs
  202. # [13:03] <boblet> Philip`: so what’s the point of them then?
  203. # [13:04] <Philip`> They use the URL mechanism to provide global uniqueness
  204. # [13:04] <boblet> aah ok
  205. # [13:05] <Philip`> The URL might point to a 404, which is fine
  206. # [13:06] <boblet> Philip`: I kinda thought that as microdata is machine-readable a program could theoretically reference the itemid to learn about a new vocabulary, but that seems forbidden. how does that affect machine readibility
  207. # [13:06] <Philip`> though it shouldn't point to a non-existent domain because there's nothing to stop someone else picking the same non-existent domain
  208. # [13:07] <Philip`> You can parse microdata without needing to know the vocabulary
  209. # [13:07] <Philip`> (which is probably its main benefit over microformats)
  210. # [13:07] <boblet> yep
  211. # [13:08] <Philip`> and I don't think there were compelling use cases for writing tools that process parsed data from vocabularies they know nothing about
  212. # [13:08] <boblet> aah ok
  213. # [13:08] <Slaanesh> Non-dereferencable URLs is probably the most futile effort ever
  214. # [13:09] <Philip`> so it wasn't considered important to support that
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  216. # [13:10] <boblet> I was asking Manu about microdata vocabularies and heard that RDFa vocabs can be used (with URLs as names) but that microdata vocabularies have to be defined in spec. that 2nd part doesn’t seem right because e.g. Google’s data-vocabulary.org vocabs
  217. # [13:11] <boblet> http://twitter.com/manusporny
  218. # [13:11] <boblet> microdata vocabs can be defined independently right?
  219. # [13:11] <gsnedders> Yup.
  220. # [13:12] <Slaanesh> Yes, as long as you specify them somewhere
  221. # [13:12] <boblet> huh. was wondering if i was missing something there for a while :)
  222. # [13:12] <Slaanesh> It's just authoring conformance, it doesn't actually matter in processing
  223. # [13:12] <boblet> wonder why he said that
  224. # [13:13] <Philip`> As far as I'm aware, you can define microdata vocabularies however you want and write machine-readable versions in whatever format you want and then code them into your microdata-using application and associate them with the item type identifier
  225. # [13:14] <boblet> so that’s why you can use RDFa vocabs too huh
  226. # [13:14] <boblet> wow
  227. # [13:14] <boblet> nice
  228. # [13:15] <Philip`> I think RDFa is designed to tie in with RDFish ways of defining vocabularies; microdata is designed to not care about that problem and merely to provide a tree of data that you can interpret however you want
  229. # [13:17] <boblet> now wondering how to write dereferenced URL in a way that normal ppl would understand :) a uniqueness token? hmm
  230. # [13:18] <Philip`> Dereferenced URL?
  231. # [13:18] <Philip`> That's just a resource :-)
  232. # [13:18] <Philip`> (unless you're an HTTP person in which case it's a representation)
  233. # [13:19] <boblet> Philip`: heh, I’d say that’s still a little too metaphysical for html5doctor readers ;)
  234. # [13:19] <Philip`> Do you mean something like non-dereferenceable URL instead?
  235. # [13:20] <boblet> eg “Note that the URL is only a unique vocabulary identifier — it doesn’t actually have to have any content”
  236. # [13:20] <Philip`> Maybe it'd be best to give examples
  237. # [13:20] <boblet> (URL being the value of itemtype="")
  238. # [13:21] <Slaanesh> boblet: Well, it _may_ be dereferencable
  239. # [13:21] <Philip`> like say it can be "http://n.whatwg.org/whatever" even though there's not a page (or even a domain) there
  240. # [13:21] <Slaanesh> Just not necessarily
  241. # [13:22] <Philip`> and say that's a completely different item type from "http://n.whatwg.org/whatever/" since they're different strings even if they might happen to be equivalent when used as URLs
  242. # [13:23] <Philip`> or something like that
  243. # [13:24] <boblet> huh
  244. # [13:26] <Slaanesh> "note that the URL is only a unique vocabulary identifier. Some vocabularies may use URLs that go somewhere, but for microdata purposes it's just a string with no special meaning ("opaque identifier").
  245. # [13:28] <jgraham> boblet: The URLs are compared as strings. The resembelence to URLs you use to access resources on the web is either a) useful or b) dangerously misleading, depending on your point of view
  246. # [13:28] <boblet> Slaanesh: thanks for the suggestion
  247. # [13:28] <jgraham> It could be useful because the URL could point to some human-readable text explaining how to use the vocabulary
  248. # [13:29] <boblet> jgraham: hehe, that seems to define a lot of HTML5 huh
  249. # [13:29] <boblet> yeah that’s what Google vocabularies do, except for recipe
  250. # [13:29] <jgraham> It could be dangrously misleading because you might think that http://foo.example and http://foo.example/ were the same
  251. # [13:30] <jgraham> But they are not (since there is only string comparison)
  252. # [13:30] <jgraham> The reason that UAs must not automatically deference the URLs is that this constitutes a DDOS attack
  253. # [13:30] <boblet> i kind of feel that’s edge case, as most users will reuse vocabs, and those that make them will probably know about this
  254. # [13:31] <jgraham> (see also: doctype URLs)
  255. # [13:31] <boblet> aah good point
  256. # [13:31] <Slaanesh> See also: People editing doctype URLs to "customize"
  257. # [13:32] <jgraham> boblet: The danger is that a user might use some vocabulary that defines http://example.com and write http://example.com/ instead
  258. # [13:32] <jgraham> and be confused when noting works
  259. # [13:32] <jgraham> *nothing
  260. # [13:32] <jgraham> (or not notice, but have wasted their time)
  261. # [13:33] <boblet> jgraham: so both useful and dangerously misleading then?
  262. # [13:33] <jgraham> boblet: And verbose. Let's not forget that :)
  263. # [13:33] <Slaanesh> The counterargument to useful is that you could just google the URL anyhow :)
  264. # [13:34] <jgraham> (verbose is the reason that RDFa defines prefixing mechanisms. But that turns out to be even worse)
  265. # [13:34] <boblet> jgraham: well not a big deal per itemid, but certainly if you’re using URLs for itemprop names
  266. # [13:34] <jgraham> Yeah
  267. # [13:34] <boblet> oh, being summoned
  268. # [13:34] <boblet> I shall return presently
  269. # [13:34] <boblet> thanks for your input all
  270. # [13:35] * jgraham worries that boblet might be some sort of demonic being
  271. # [13:37] <jgraham> WTF,since when did cmd+l open the Go-to-page dialog in Opera / Mac rather than focusing the URL bar?
  272. # [13:40] <Slaanesh> boblet: You seem to be writing W3 instead of W3C
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  281. # [14:27] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec3.html#sec3.2.3
  282. # [14:27] <karlcow> 3.2.3 URI Comparison
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  284. # [14:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: It's always done that… sometimes.
  285. # [14:52] <jgraham> gsnedders: Phase of the moon?
  286. # [14:54] <Workshiva> I want to know how I get rid of that horrible linux behavior where middle click not on a link navigates to clipboard contents
  287. # [14:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: Did you see http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1444946 btw? Seems like something you might be interested in
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  293. # [15:18] * gsnedders facepalms at jgraham
  294. # [15:18] <gsnedders> (There again, I wonder _which_ of the numerous possibilities makes jgraham think he'll be interested in it)
  295. # [15:23] <Philip`> Workshiva: I thought most browsers had options for that
  296. # [15:25] <Philip`> Workshiva: (At least Opera and Firefox do)
  297. # [15:25] * Quits: jorlow (~jorlow@110.173.236.132) (Quit: jorlow)
  298. # [15:26] <gsnedders> (I guess I should read the article before speculating on why jgraham linked me to it, from the basis on the title alone…)
  299. # [15:26] <Workshiva> Philip`: That might solve it in one installation of one app
  300. # [15:26] <Workshiva> We need to remove the problem at the source
  301. # [15:28] <Philip`> Workshiva: Since the browsers provide options, I assume there isn't a source - each application makes the decision to implement that obsolete convention
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  303. # [15:29] <Workshiva> If we eliminate enough developers, future developers will think twice before following
  304. # [15:30] <Philip`> PuTTY is crazy because it does copy on select and paste on right-click, so if you try to select some text then right click to get a context menu to find a copy option then actually you paste it
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  306. # [15:31] <Workshiva> It's only trying to stay compatible with the general unix craziness
  307. # [15:31] <Philip`> Middle-click isn't too dangerous for me since my mouse's middle button only works half the time and only if I press it in a particular direction, so that's okay
  308. # [15:32] <Workshiva> (But with a new kind of crazy)
  309. # [15:32] <Workshiva> Well, middle click is 'open link in background tab' in Opera, so it explicitly means I don't want to change anything about the current tab
  310. # [15:32] <Philip`> (I suppose it might work more reliably if I didn't use it in the wrong hand and therefore naturally press the button from an unexpected angle)
  311. # [15:32] <Workshiva> Miss by a pixel, and suddenly the page is gone
  312. # [15:32] <Workshiva> I can't imagine what kind of masochist would wnnt that behavior
  313. # [15:33] <Workshiva> *want
  314. # [15:33] <Philip`> File a bug to change the default :-)
  315. # [15:33] * Philip` wonders if Opera has data on how many people change that option
  316. # [15:34] <Workshiva> I bet most linux users are already suffering from stockholm syndrome and don't realize how much they're suffering
  317. # [15:34] <gsnedders> Workshiva: That's just too quotable.
  318. # [15:34] <Workshiva> Oh, great, I have to pick between pasting and panning?
  319. # [15:35] <Workshiva> Why not throw in 'quit opera' for good measure?
  320. # [15:36] <gsnedders> Workshiva: BTW, you moved somewhere for work?
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  322. # [15:36] <doublec> i guess html injection issues are about to get into the news in a big way
  323. # [15:36] <Workshiva> gsnedders: Zürich
  324. # [15:36] <doublec> given the chaos at youtube in the last hour or so
  325. # [15:36] <Workshiva> doublec: It's been on reddit for two hours already
  326. # [15:36] <gsnedders> Workshiva: OK, I was kinda guessing that :)
  327. # [15:37] <Philip`> Workshiva: Apart from the crazy people who've used Unix for decades and designed things like X, most Linux users used to be Windows users and I expect they'd like things to work basically the same
  328. # [15:37] <doublec> that's what I get for visiting youtube before reddit :)
  329. # [15:39] <jgraham> Dear lazy irc: How do I rip CDs to vorbis format on OSX without paying for the priviledge?
  330. # [15:40] <Workshiva> >OSX
  331. # [15:40] <Workshiva> >without paying
  332. # [15:40] <jgraham> My best answer so far is "Install linux in virtualbox"
  333. # [15:40] <Workshiva> I think I found your problem
  334. # [15:40] <jgraham> Workshiva: yeah, that does seem to be a common problem
  335. # [15:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: Can VLC not do so?
  336. # [15:41] <jgraham> But you would have thought that by now there were enough unix geeks using OSX on laptopns that *someone* would have written something free for many simple tasks
  337. # [15:41] <Philip`> jgraham: Eject CD, insert CD into computer with different OS?
  338. # [15:41] <jgraham> gsnedders: VLC rips CDs?
  339. # [15:41] <Philip`> That seems easier than installing a VM
  340. # [15:41] <Workshiva> I spotted something very interesting a few days
  341. # [15:41] <Workshiva> ago
  342. # [15:41] <jgraham> Philip`: I lack a computer with another OS and a working CD drive
  343. # [15:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: Surely you don't need to do that? Can't you just install GNOME/KDE/whatever within X11 (in the GNOME case) or natively (in the KDE case)?
  344. # [15:42] <gsnedders> jgraham: I think it can
  345. # [15:42] <jgraham> gsnedders: I think installing a VM would likly be easier than trying to get that to work...
  346. # [15:42] <gsnedders> jgraham: I however lack any CDs in this country to test this theory
  347. # [15:42] <gsnedders> (of VLC)
  348. # [15:42] <jgraham> I will investigate VLC
  349. # [15:43] <Workshiva> I saw the VP of FSF Europe using a macbook
  350. # [15:44] <Philip`> jgraham: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/cdrecord.html sounds like it works in OS X
  351. # [15:44] <Philip`> Workshiva: Maybe he had installed Linux onto it
  352. # [15:45] <Workshiva> No, she was running OSX
  353. # [15:45] <Philip`> Oops, s/he/s\/he/
  354. # [15:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: Or singular they.
  355. # [15:46] <Philip`> gsnedders: That would be a much boringer regexp
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  357. # [15:51] <jgraham> I would like to add some more feature requests to my irc request. Like the ability to have one file per track without doing them all individually
  358. # [15:51] <jgraham> VLC appears to be insane
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  360. # [15:53] <jgraham> (and I don't think using the command line is a very viable option)
  361. # [15:56] <jgraham> http://en.flossmanuals.net/VLC/RipCD is like a summay of everything that is wrong with VLC
  362. # [15:59] <gsnedders> Sadly, I wouldn't say that's all that's wrong
  363. # [15:59] <jgraham> From a UI point of view I mean. It has a wizard called just "Wizard" in the menu!
  364. # [16:00] <jgraham> That's in-fucking-sane
  365. # [16:01] <Philip`> http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/man/cdrecord/cdda2ogg.1.html looks like a much more convenient UI
  366. # [16:01] <Philip`> (as long as it actually works)
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  370. # [16:10] <boblet> Slaanesh: thanks for that catch
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  375. # [16:44] <AryehGregor> Workshiva, Chrome seems not to navigate on middle-click on Linux, even with a URL in the primary clipboard.
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  386. # [17:50] <boblet> perfect example of jgraham’s comment about itemid being a string that pretends to be a URL; the Google vocabulary for Review-aggregate is http://www.data-vocabulary.org/Review-aggregate, but that page auto-forwards to http://www.data-vocabulary.org/Review-aggregate/
  387. # [17:51] <boblet> (seems like all their data-vocabulary pages do)
  388. # [17:51] <boblet> caught me out in a copy & paste
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  406. # [19:30] <estellevw> Should the <embed> element have an alt attibrute?
  407. # [19:30] <estellevw> From the spec:
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  409. # [19:30] <estellevw> Content attributes: Global attributes, src, type, width, height, Any other attribute that has no namespace (see prose).
  410. # [19:31] <estellevw> how is accessibilty expected to be added?
  411. # [19:32] <Workshiva> The plugin is supposed to handle accessibility
  412. # [19:35] <estellevw> ok, so including an SVG, the contents of the <title> attribute would suffice?
  413. # [19:37] <estellevw> Should the plugin fail though...
  414. # [19:37] <Workshiva> Well, ideally you'd use <object> or <img> instead
  415. # [19:40] <estellevw> need to test both those in IE with SVG before responding...
  416. # [19:41] <Workshiva> <img> is right out for the current browser generation
  417. # [19:41] <Workshiva> But <object> should be possible with some juggling
  418. # [19:42] <AryehGregor> <img> works in everything but Firefox, and should work in next Firefox too.
  419. # [19:42] <AryehGregor> (for SVG)
  420. # [19:43] <estellevw> Shouldn't there be an alt attribute on the <embed> anyhow so the user knows whether the plugin is worth accessing?
  421. # [19:43] <AryehGregor> Isn't <embed> obsolete?
  422. # [19:43] <Workshiva> No, not from what I can see
  423. # [19:43] <AryehGregor> Or is there some reason to use it?
  424. # [19:43] <estellevw> i thought html5 was the first time embed is in the spec
  425. # [19:44] <Workshiva> It's the first time it is specified, yes
  426. # [19:44] <estellevw> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-embed-element
  427. # [19:44] <Workshiva> AryehGregor: <img> SVG works in IE6/7?
  428. # [19:44] <AryehGregor> Workshiva, no, no SVG works in IE6/7/8.
  429. # [19:45] <Workshiva> There's a plugin, isn't there?
  430. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> You said "current browser generation", not "obsolete browsers with third-party plugins that no one actually has installed".
  431. # [19:45] <estellevw> yes, there is an Adobe plugin for <embed src=x.svg type="image/svg+xml" to work in IE
  432. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> I take "current generation" to mean "the latest release of everything".
  433. # [19:46] <Workshiva> I meant "all versions in significant use"
  434. # [19:46] <Workshiva> And I wouldn't consider IE9 current until it's actually released
  435. # [19:46] <Workshiva> Anyhoo
  436. # [19:46] <estellevw> "The embed element represents an integration point for an external (typically non-HTML) application or interactive content."
  437. # [19:46] <Workshiva> <object> and the plugin should work for svg in all relevant graphical browsers
  438. # [19:46] <estellevw> therefor I think that svg will be seen as a valid use of embed.
  439. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> Is there some reason to use <embed> instead of <object>?
  440. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> For anything?
  441. # [19:48] <estellevw> should <object> be used to embed the SVG, is the SVG title enough for accessibility?
  442. # [19:48] <estellevw> it's in the spec. People will use it.
  443. # [19:48] <Workshiva> <embed> is easier to do cross-browser, I'd say
  444. # [19:49] <Workshiva> But I wouldn't recommend it
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  458. # [20:47] <annevk> haha
  459. # [20:47] <annevk> bio of http://twitter.com/FreeTheInternet "We Are Anonymous, We Are Legion And Divided By Zero. We Do Not Forgive Internet Censorship And We Do Not Forget Free Speech . We Are Over 9000, Expect Us!"
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  479. # [22:07] <jgraham> So I gave up trying to use vorbis on OSX when it occured to me that trying to install KDE from MacPorts was insane
  480. # [22:07] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure that it is the Apple users that have Stockholm Syndrone
  481. # [22:08] <jgraham> s/use/rip CDs as/
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  485. # [22:22] <daedb> jgraham: Run a Windows application through OSX version of Wine?
  486. # [22:32] <jgraham> daedb: That is also insane
  487. # [22:33] <gsnedders> jgraham: Lose yourself, go insane?
  488. # [22:34] <hamcore> lose yourself in the music, the moment, you own it, you better never let it go .
  489. # [22:34] <daedb> jgraham: I was thinking of pre-made bundles like http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=77261 though it still requires X11.
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  493. # [22:36] <hamcore> I didn't see any mobile sites specification for html5, is there one?
  494. # [22:36] <jgraham> hamcore: What is a "mobile sites specification"?
  495. # [22:37] <jgraham> I suspect the nswer is "no" though
  496. # [22:37] <jgraham> *answer
  497. # [22:37] <hamcore> best practices
  498. # [22:37] <jgraham> We tend to have a "one web" philosophy
  499. # [22:38] <hamcore> nice, thanks.
  500. # [22:39] <jgraham> (that doesn't exclude best practices of course, but does tend to exclude "profiles")
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  502. # [22:41] <hamcore> surely.
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  524. # Session Close: Mon Jul 05 00:00:00 2010

The end :)