/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-07-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jul 05 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  29. # [02:16] <MikeSmith> is there an online tool for checking that background colors conform to WCAG recommendations?
  30. # [02:17] <Rik`> MikeSmith: you mean for contrast ?
  31. # [02:17] <MikeSmith> Rik`: yeah
  32. # [02:17] <Rik`> http://snook.ca/technical/colour_contrast/colour.html
  33. # [02:18] <Rik`> this one gives you the HP and WCAG2 rules
  34. # [02:18] <MikeSmith> Rik`: cool, thanks
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  61. # [03:58] <nessy> Hixie: you finished the WebSRT section!?
  62. # [03:59] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p1201-ipbf709osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  63. # [04:00] <nessy> now I am curious how to do styling, such as background color and general font settings etc
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  66. # [04:03] <MikeSmith> yoshiaki: if the dudes you're meeting with have any specific questions I can help with, lemme know
  67. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> not trying to be rude, but don't think I need to be there for the whole meeting
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  69. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=1376#c4
  70. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> <DmitryBaranovsk> “We have chosen intentionally to not support SVG in the browser to save space; full SVG adds over 1M to the webkit image size.” No comments.
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  72. # [04:16] <boblet> MikeSmith: one of the most bone-headed decisions they made
  73. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> a disappointing one, at the very least
  74. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> for better or worse, SVG has become a de facto piece of the Web platform
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  76. # [04:19] <boblet> given current high-dpi mobile developments, not having SVG is downright annoying
  77. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> to see a browser team unilaterally choosing to omit key pieces of the Web platform from particular OSes/platforms is really disappointing
  78. # [04:22] <boblet> especially one that would have saved me a lot of work :/
  79. # [04:23] <aho> ff4 will finally support svg as img's src or as background-image
  80. # [04:24] <aho> opera did support that since ages and chrome/chromium also supports it for a while now
  81. # [04:24] <MikeSmith> boblet: I could somewhat understand disabling some things on non-smartphone devices that don't have adequate resources
  82. # [04:25] <aho> and then i can finally get rid of those stupid object tags
  83. # [04:25] <MikeSmith> boblet: but I wonder which devices, exactly, are the ones that they are shipping Android on that don't have adequate resources
  84. # [04:25] <MikeSmith> boblet: certainly I would think the HTC devices have adequate resources for it
  85. # [04:26] <MikeSmith> here's hoping for ChromeOS mobile
  86. # [04:27] <Hixie> nessy: still have to do the rendering rules for it, and the DOM API, and a few minor other things
  87. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> I can imagine the argument being made that if a user has a device that doesn't have enough resources for handling SVG, then it's unlikely the user trying to browse the Web on that device is going to have a very adequate user experience anyway
  88. # [04:28] <nessy> Hixie: have you thought about adding styling by reusing CSS?
  89. # [04:28] * nessy doesn't remember if we had that discussion
  90. # [04:28] <Hixie> nessy: yeah it'll be CSS-based
  91. # [04:29] <nessy> through a link at the top or something? curious to see an example
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  93. # [04:29] <MikeSmith> boblet: because such a device would likely like have adequate resources for handling AJAXy sites that make much use of Javascript
  94. # [04:30] <boblet> MikeSmith: like I said, boneheaded. bah
  95. # [04:30] <boblet> in the absence of foolip can anyone tell me how I’d add microdatajs to a page and generate “download this vcard/ical” links?
  96. # [04:33] <MikeSmith> boblet: yeah, blech.. like God does in Revelations 3:16 "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth"
  97. # [04:33] <MikeSmith> spue spue
  98. # [04:34] <boblet> MikeSmith: aah, i needed spue.js huh ;)
  99. # [04:34] <boblet> I see your spue and raise you bah humbug
  100. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> heh
  101. # [04:35] <boblet> for a nested microdata item, does the parent property have the value of all contained text, or only act as a pointer for the nested name-value pair?
  102. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> Hixie: fwiw, I added per-element "Microdata property value" subsections to my markup ref
  103. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> e.g., http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/object.html#object-microdata
  104. # [04:35] <Hixie> i saw
  105. # [04:35] <Hixie> looks good
  106. # [04:36] <Hixie> dunno how you'll explain it to people who think microdata isn't in html :-)
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  108. # [04:36] <Hixie> nessy: using the style sheets in the HTML file
  109. # [04:36] <boblet> e.g. for this code sample:
  110. # [04:36] <boblet> <p itemscope>The <span itemprop="band">Salter Cane</span> drummer is <span itemprop="members" itemscope><span itemprop="name">Jamie Freeman</span>.</span></p>
  111. # [04:36] <nessy> so no reference in the websrt file itself?
  112. # [04:37] <Hixie> nessy: if it takes off we can add something to the srt file, dunno if it's really necessary though
  113. # [04:37] <boblet> is members equal to Jamie Freeman, the property name with the value Jamie Freeman, or both?
  114. # [04:37] <Hixie> nessy: i'd imagine most of the styling will be for web authors trying to make their subs fit their site
  115. # [04:37] <Hixie> nessy: most of the time, subtitles on dvds and the like aren't styled at all
  116. # [04:37] <nessy> Hixie: makes for little reusability, I guess
  117. # [04:38] <Hixie> styles aren't often reused anyway
  118. # [04:38] <nessy> Hixie: yeah, that's the current state of tech - I was hoping we can get something more powerful for the web ;)
  119. # [04:38] <Hixie> well for the web we'll have css :-)
  120. # [04:38] <nessy> Hixie: and thus also for the media players
  121. # [04:38] <nessy> yeah :)
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  123. # [04:39] <nessy> I'm thinking css features will increasingly be able to be rendered in media players
  124. # [04:39] <nessy> that's part of "taking off" I guess
  125. # [04:50] <nessy> Hixie: did you describe the full spec as at http://damowmow.com/temp/srtspec ?
  126. # [04:51] <nessy> ah, don't worry - I was confused - I wondered if you missed the D, L, T, S etc spec - but it's there
  127. # [05:01] <yoshiaki> MikeSmith, thank you for your kind!
  128. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> hai
  129. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: html5rocks.com could maybe use a feed
  130. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> for teh "Latest additions" part
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  136. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> somebody may want to point out to Ben Schwarz on the whatwg mailing list that the value of the rel attribute is a space-separated list of values
  137. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> so his <a rel="prefetch next">Next page</a> example is valid
  138. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/links.html#attr-hyperlink-rel
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  152. # [06:33] <MikeSmith> hmm, maybe also point out that "prefetch" is not allowed link type for <a> anyway...
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  163. # [07:36] <MikeSmith> there's no way to selectively apply character formatting to individual words in a string of CSS generated text, right?
  164. # [07:36] <MikeSmith> I mean, in the value of a CSS "content: " property
  165. # [07:37] <MikeSmith> boblet: ↑ ?
  166. # [07:37] <MikeSmith> I want to prepend the text "The following example is invalid."
  167. # [07:37] <MikeSmith> and I want just the word "invalid" to be bold
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  198. # [08:52] * Slaanesh ponders MikeSmith's question
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  200. # [08:57] <Slaanesh> I think the answer was that there's no ::first-word
  201. # [08:57] <Slaanesh> And no other selectors on the word level either
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  205. # [09:23] <FastJack> heh, and no nth-word? ;)
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  219. # [10:38] <boblet> mikesmith: you want css3-content with p:before {content:"invalid";font-weight:bold;} p:before(2) {content:"This is ";}. unfortunately browsers do not love you.
  220. # [10:40] <asmodai> hsivonen: Is that 3.6.7 a beta or not?
  221. # [10:40] <boblet> mikesmith: you could add 2nd :before on a nested or parent element if there’s a convenient one, otherwise the super-fugly hack would be p::after {content:"This is ";float:left;margin-right:.3em;}
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  223. # [10:43] <boblet> mikesmith: check chat log — just replied
  224. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> k
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  234. # [11:04] <boblet> bbl
  235. # [11:04] <boblet> oh anyone know when foolip will be around?
  236. # [11:05] <boblet> (guessing he’s off enjoying RL or something atm)
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  240. # [11:08] <nielsle> If browsers get full screen html5 capability, how easy will it be to create a page that looks like a login screen and steal peoples passwords?
  241. # [11:10] <kennyluck> lol
  242. # [11:11] <annevk> nielsle, there will be keyboard restrictions
  243. # [11:15] <nielsle> So in order to make a fully canvas based solution then I need to write some javascript that reads which key people are pressing at a given type, and write the corresponding "*" in the correct area of the canvas.
  244. # [11:16] <nielsle> type -> time
  245. # [11:16] <annevk> well you cannot, because there are keyboard restrictions
  246. # [11:17] <nessy> like going into TV remote control mode? ;)
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  248. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> nielsle: there's recently been on a long discussion on the whatwg mailing list about how to make full-screen video secure
  249. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> dunno if you saw that yet or not
  250. # [11:25] <nielsle> I am googling for it :)
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  253. # [11:32] <nielsle> Ah, here it is. Thank you for the answers. I feel safer on the internet now. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.org.w3c.whatwg.discuss/24221/focus=24271
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  258. # [12:20] <Philip`> jgraham: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment_and_arts/10507286.stm may be relevant to your interests
  259. # [12:21] <Philip`> (if you haven't seen it already)
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  278. # [13:45] <gsnedders> jgraham: We have Jeppe to replace you, FYI.
  279. # [13:45] <gsnedders> (for fika)
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  282. # [14:06] <remysharp> I might be missing something here, but any ideas every browser renders a canvas 1px width line as 2px? example: http://jsbin.com/apeti3/3
  283. # [14:06] <remysharp> (sorry - I said every - I've not checked IE9pre3 yet)
  284. # [14:08] <Peter`> Looks like the browser is trying to render it between the two pixels and thus applies anti-aliasing
  285. # [14:11] * Joins: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.8.137)
  286. # [14:11] <annevk> yeah, iirc lines are drawn from the middle point
  287. # [14:11] <Peter`> If you move the line to 10.5x10.5 instead of 10x10 it's perfectly sharp
  288. # [14:11] <annevk> or you could use rectangles, though that may be slower
  289. # [14:12] <remysharp> Peter`: blimey - who knew!
  290. # [14:12] <remysharp> cheers for the tip
  291. # [14:14] <Peter`> No problem :)
  292. # [14:15] <annevk> the spec prolly ought to define it
  293. # [14:19] <Peter`> 11 replies on Twitter, two here, hmmmm
  294. # [14:20] <remysharp> Peter`: I'm never sure how quick replies come in on #whatwg :-)
  295. # [14:20] <remysharp> it makes for a good backup :)
  296. # [14:22] <Peter`> Indeed :-)
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  301. # [14:34] <boblet> remysharp: IRC is good for those of us without thousands of groupies :P
  302. # [14:36] <remysharp> boblet: groupies help ;-)
  303. # [14:37] <boblet> remysharp: lucky for some — none of the bots and spammers following me help much :)
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  305. # [14:41] <annevk> remysharp, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0040.html
  306. # [14:42] <remysharp> annevk: not mine I'm afraid to say (if that was your intent)
  307. # [14:43] <annevk> oh, I thought you were behind html5rocks
  308. # [14:43] <remysharp> annevk: nah, html5demos - hence the ugly grey :)
  309. # [14:43] <boblet> annevk: that’s Chrome dev team, paul_irish is one contact
  310. # [14:43] <annevk> ah okay
  311. # [14:43] <remysharp> Paul Irisi might be a starting point
  312. # [14:43] <annevk> it doesn't really matter
  313. # [14:45] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com)
  314. # [14:45] <boblet> annevk: it’s all in svn and you can add patches to comments in the Google Code repo
  315. # [14:46] <boblet> and file bugs. there was already a bug for transition examples being webkit only, but I already submitted patches for most of them
  316. # [14:46] <annevk> good good; it seems we need to change the specification and Opera to match WebKit
  317. # [14:48] <boblet> annevk: http://code.google.com/p/html5-slides/issues/detail?id=20&can=1&q=css
  318. # [14:48] <boblet> your issue is different tho so file a new issue
  319. # [14:52] <Philip`> remysharp: http://diveintohtml5.org/canvas.html#pixel-madness
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  321. # [14:52] <remysharp> Philip`: damn that man, I didn't cover any of that madness in Bruce and my book!
  322. # [14:52] <remysharp> well - at least it's a bit of proof that we didn't read his book first :D
  323. # [14:53] <boblet> tehehe
  324. # [14:56] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  325. # [15:00] <Philip`> remysharp: If I remember correctly, he didn't cover it either, until I pointed out why the lines in his examples were all fuzzy :-)
  326. # [15:00] <boblet> the advantage of writing in the open :)
  327. # [15:00] <boblet> (not that I am)
  328. # [15:00] <remysharp> Philip`: absolutely the advantage of an online book. Bruce and I wanted to something similar, but our publishers weren't game :(
  329. # [15:02] <annevk> can't you just write and then find a publisher later?
  330. # [15:02] * Philip` would be happy to review offline books too, in exchange for vast quantities of money :-p
  331. # [15:03] <boblet> remysharp: I wanted to do the book as a website then generate the print copy via print styles. naive fool that I was
  332. # [15:03] <boblet> (that’s why oli.jp is quite reminiscent of print)
  333. # [15:04] <Philip`> Would publishers prefer you to do the book as a website then copy-and-paste into Word before they edit and print it?
  334. # [15:04] <boblet> Philip`: would you like to read about microdata? ;)
  335. # [15:05] <Philip`> boblet: Unfortunately I know very little about that
  336. # [15:05] * zcorpan_ is happy to review html5 books
  337. # [15:05] <boblet> Philip`: publishers prefer you use their shitty-ass MS Word templates right from the start
  338. # [15:06] * boblet was rather depressed to discover his website had better typography than a professional publisher did
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  340. # [15:09] <boblet> I actually wanted to have an online version of the book be part of the purchase price
  341. # [15:10] * Joins: bobchao (~cctw@118-168-75-19.dynamic.hinet.net)
  342. # [15:11] <boblet> publishers are just as prehistoric as record labels and movie studios sadly (well apart from a couple of indy exceptions which already have HTML5 books coming out)
  343. # [15:11] <Philip`> Do people still make books with CDs inside the back cover?
  344. # [15:11] <Philip`> You could put the web site content onto that
  345. # [15:12] <Philip`> (That would be entirely missing the point of the web, but it'd be better than nothing)
  346. # [15:14] <boblet> Philip`: nah they have code snippet sites. but it’d be much better to have a website that you could then store locally, copy&paste from, access on a bunch of devices etc
  347. # [15:14] <boblet> (as in a website with the full content of the book)
  348. # [15:15] <annevk> so why seek out a publisher that prevents that?
  349. # [15:15] * annevk still doesn't quite get it
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  351. # [15:15] <annevk> is there more money to be made or so if you give in freedom?
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  354. # [15:36] <boblet> annevk: in my case I’m not famous, so it’s selling my soul for the cred that comes with being published
  355. # [15:36] <boblet> sad but true
  356. # [15:36] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108)
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  358. # [15:37] <boblet> I suspect the current model will be in crisis in a couple of years as Five Simple Steps and A Book Apart start to steal all the good authors
  359. # [15:38] <boblet> and other indy publishers, self-publishing etc
  360. # [15:38] <boblet> so re: microdata “Properties can also have values that are URLs. This is achieved using the a element and its href attribute, the img element and its src attribute, or other elements that link to or embed external resources”
  361. # [15:38] <boblet> why doesn’t mpilgrim have script in his list?
  362. # [15:39] <boblet> http://diveintohtml5.org/extensibility.html#property-values
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  365. # [15:45] * miketaylr is now known as miketaylr|zombie
  366. # [15:47] <zcorpan_> because script is not listed in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/microdata.html#values
  367. # [15:48] <zcorpan_> "The URL property elements are the a, area, audio, embed, iframe, img, link, object, source, and video elements."
  368. # [15:48] <boblet> zcorpan_: aah, I didn’t check the encoding part. d’oh
  369. # [15:48] <boblet> thanks
  370. # [15:57] <annevk> boblet, there's just as much cred for publishing online, no?
  371. # [15:57] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  372. # [15:58] <annevk> boblet, if not more as it makes it much easier to see if your stuff is actually legit :)
  373. # [15:58] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@92.84.201.82)
  374. # [15:59] <boblet> annevk: I think you need to have some level of network first. there’s also the … monetisation issue
  375. # [16:00] <boblet> (not that publishing traditionally makes any money unless you have a bazillion reprints)
  376. # [16:00] <boblet> that’s what I have been doing too with my weblog and html5doctor :)
  377. # [16:01] * boblet wonders if his lack of network is due to his stuff not being legit
  378. # [16:08] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@U017209.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  379. # [16:09] <boblet> (psst that was everyone’s chance to say “no, no! your stuff is great!” btw :P )
  380. # [16:13] <Dashiva^2> I think they stumbled on your use of 'legit'
  381. # [16:14] * Dashiva^2 is now known as Workshiva
  382. # [16:15] <akamike> Dr boblet your incisions are of the highest quality and i have never seen a man attempt 3 double bypasses at the same time
  383. # [16:15] <akamike> and succeed...
  384. # [16:15] <annevk> boblet, a book is different from a couple of blog posts, but maybe indeed you are not legit :p
  385. # [16:15] <Workshiva> As dual-classed ranger/ranger I can dual wield my dual wield
  386. # [16:18] <boblet> akamike: you are a scholar and a gentleman
  387. # [16:18] <boblet> (the rest of you rabble on the other hand… :P )
  388. # [16:18] <boblet> hehe
  389. # [16:19] <boblet> here’s hoping I climb the mountain, indeed
  390. # [16:19] <boblet> bbl
  391. # [16:24] <zcorpan_> Philip`: i get a fraud warning in opera for philip.html5.org :)
  392. # [16:25] * miketaylr|zombie is now known as miketaylr
  393. # [16:26] <annevk> wow
  394. # [16:26] <annevk> quite the bug
  395. # [16:27] <Peter`> remysharp: I think your Tron mmo uses an outdated version of WebSocket, it's missing the 'sec-websocket-origin' header
  396. # [16:27] <remysharp> Peter`: yeah, it doesn't work on Chrome 6
  397. # [16:27] <remysharp> :(
  398. # [16:28] <Peter`> Works fine on Firefox though
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  400. # [16:29] <remysharp> yeah - flash shim ftw :)
  401. # [16:29] <remysharp> not mine - obviously someone way smarter :)
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  404. # [16:35] <Philip`> zcorpan_: It'd be nice if the warning gave some details that made it possible to debug
  405. # [16:35] <Philip`> e.g. to determine if it's a false positive or not
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  450. # [19:13] <llrcombs> hey, what's the rule for right-clicking on <object>s and <embed>s?
  451. # [19:13] * Quits: fwaokda (~fwaokda@70.152.107.241) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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  457. # [19:44] * karlushi wonders if webkit became stricter for cookies
  458. # [19:44] <karlushi> encoding
  459. # [19:46] <Workshiva> Dear lazy IRC, can I customize the time zone used for \t in a bash prompt?
  460. # [19:48] * Quits: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com) (Quit: adactio)
  461. # [19:49] <karlushi> Workshiva, do you want the local time, or the TZ info?
  462. # [19:49] <Philip`> Workshiva: Do you want to change it independently of other applications?
  463. # [19:50] <Workshiva> I'd be fine with changing it in all applications, but I can't change the system timezone
  464. # [19:51] <Philip`> You could put TZ=Whatever in .bash_profile
  465. # [19:52] <Philip`> (where Whatever is something from /usr/share/zoneinfo)
  466. # [19:53] <karlushi> do not use \t and use date something like?: export PS1="[\$(date +%k:%M:%S)]> "
  467. # [19:53] <Workshiva> TZ seems to work
  468. # [19:54] <Workshiva> Thanks lazy IRC!
  469. # [19:54] * Philip` thanks http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/guide-localization.xml
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  475. # [20:25] * karlushi is discovering the webkit difference of handling cookies with commas http://cookietest.livelyconsulting.com/
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  478. # [20:40] * karlushi wonders if webkit has started to implement https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-httpstate-cookie/
  479. # [20:41] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
  480. # [20:45] <llrcombs> hey, what's the rule for right-clicking on <object>s and <embed>s?
  481. # [20:48] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@adsl-99-62-187-148.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  482. # [20:52] <annevk> karlushi, I suspect so; given how abarth usually goes about things
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  485. # [20:58] <llrcombs> assuming it's an empty <object> (say, <object id="nothing"></object>)
  486. # [20:59] <llrcombs> should the UA display its own context-menu
  487. # [20:59] <llrcombs> or should it ignore it (since no plugin is loaded)
  488. # [21:02] * Joins: drunknbass (~drunknbas@76.91.255.83)
  489. # [21:04] <karlushi> annevk, thanks
  490. # [21:05] * Quits: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.159.231) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  492. # [21:09] <karlushi> http://assets.en.oreilly.com/1/event/44/TCP%20and%20the%20Lower%20Bound%20of%20Web%20Performance%20Presentation.pdf
  493. # [21:10] <annevk> llrcombs, it's up to the UA
  494. # [21:10] <annevk> llrcombs, though if the element is not displayed at all there's prolly no context menu for it :)
  495. # [21:17] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com) (Quit: davidb)
  496. # [21:20] <llrcombs> no, assuming it's displayed, but there's nothing loaded in it
  497. # [21:25] <annevk> nothing much really
  498. # [21:25] <annevk> semantically in that case it's like <span>
  499. # [21:25] <annevk> so you could do whatever you do for <span> I suppose
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  502. # [21:30] <llrcombs> so, then, WebKit's doing it wrong
  503. # [21:30] <llrcombs> good!
  504. # [21:30] <llrcombs> good
  505. # [21:30] <llrcombs> I've already got a bug report in for that
  506. # [21:31] <llrcombs> just wanted to confirm that what I thought was the right way was, in fact, the right way
  507. # [21:31] <llrcombs> except, wouldn't it be a block-level element (e.g. a <div>), not a <span>?
  508. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure the spec doesn't say anything here.
  509. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> Behavior is undefined, as with most UI-related things.
  510. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> The spec doesn't assume that there's any such thing as a context menu on your platform (and on some platforms, indeed, there's not).
  511. # [21:33] <llrcombs> heh
  512. # [21:33] <llrcombs> true
  513. # [21:34] <llrcombs> and the spec isn't exactly crystal-clear on <embed>s and <object>s either
  514. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Because their functionality is really "give control to some non-HTML program, quite possibly a binary blob controlled by an entirely different party from the browser implementer".
  515. # [21:37] <llrcombs> exactly
  516. # [21:37] <llrcombs> but the <object> tag was always a bad notation, imho
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  523. # [22:11] <annevk> llrcombs, nah, <object> like <img> is inline during fallback
  524. # [22:11] <annevk> (not that it should matter for what kind of context menu you would get)
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  531. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> Where is it specced how big iframes should be if they have no height or width?
  532. # [22:36] * AryehGregor checks the rendering section
  533. # [22:38] * AryehGregor doesn't see it
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  536. # [22:49] <zcorpan_> i think it's http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/rendering.html#embedded-content-2 and http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visudet.html#inline-replaced-width
  537. # [22:51] <zcorpan_> or maybe it's not defined properly in html5
  538. # [22:51] <AryehGregor> It doesn't say what the intrinsic height and width are supposed to be, though?
  539. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> (also, I'm not seeing from CSS what the height is if there's no intrinsic height, width, or ratio)
  540. # [22:55] <zcorpan_> it says 150px height for block/inline-block/float, but iframe is inline in opera/webkit/firefox
  541. # [22:55] <annevk> CSS 2.1 defines that
  542. # [22:55] <annevk> ultimate fallback is 150/300
  543. # [22:55] <annevk> for replaced content with no intrinsic height/width
  544. # [22:56] <AryehGregor> Where does it say 150px height here? http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visudet.html#inline-replaced-width
  545. # [22:57] <zcorpan_> an iframe pointing to an svg with intrinsic width/height still uses 300x150
  546. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> Yes, an iframe without seamless has to be defined to have no intrinsic width or height or ratio.
  547. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> It doesn't seem like that is defined anywhere.
  548. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> I'll file a bug, I guess.
  549. # [22:58] <annevk> AryehGregor, that's width
  550. # [22:58] <annevk> AryehGregor, it says 300 there
  551. # [22:59] <AryehGregor> Oh, oops.
  552. # [22:59] <annevk> AryehGregor, height is defined here http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visudet.html#inline-replaced-height where it says 150
  553. # [22:59] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@92.84.201.82) (Quit: .)
  554. # [22:59] <AryehGregor> I see, it has separate sections for height and width.
  555. # [22:59] <annevk> and has had for a decade or so :)
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  559. # [23:01] <zcorpan_> oh that section covered inline as well. i obviously skipped the first few words in the heading
  560. # [23:01] <zcorpan_> anyway, those are still not accurate for iframe since browsers always use 300x150 as default
  561. # [23:02] <annevk> oh, you're right
  562. # [23:02] <annevk> I think I pointed that out once
  563. # [23:02] <annevk> that HTML5 should have default style rules for it
  564. # [23:02] <annevk> I wonder if I ever filed a bug on that or emailed...
  565. # [23:03] <zcorpan_> if it was before whatwg last call, it fell between the cracks
  566. # [23:03] * AryehGregor just filed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10091
  567. # [23:05] <annevk> meh
  568. # [23:06] <annevk> iframe { height:150px; width:300px } is needed
  569. # [23:06] <annevk> in the rendering section
  570. # [23:06] <annevk> presumably overridden when seamless is specified and the URL is same-origin
  571. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> Wouldn't that allow authors to override it with iframe { height: auto; width: auto }?
  572. # [23:09] <annevk> zcorpan_, hmm, actually, the problem seems more that iframe creates a "viewport" of its own and that viewport has no intrinsic height/width and therefore the CSS rules apply
  573. # [23:10] <annevk> zcorpan_, so the embedded content is not SVG, it's a viewport with SVG on it (something in that direction)
  574. # [23:10] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-170-165-184.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  575. # [23:10] <llrcombs> so seamless would do the same thing as iFrames do on iPhone (size themselves to fit their content)?
  576. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> Do iframes really do that on the iPhone?
  577. # [23:11] <llrcombs> yep
  578. # [23:11] * llrcombs is annoyed at LT (local high school)
  579. # [23:11] <llrcombs> they have an HTML course
  580. # [23:11] <llrcombs> but they have a rule
  581. # [23:11] <zcorpan_> also cross-origin?
  582. # [23:11] <llrcombs> yes, iirc
  583. # [23:11] <llrcombs> go try it!
  584. # [23:11] <zcorpan_> i don't have an iphone
  585. # [23:12] <llrcombs> that rule is: all tags must be all-caps
  586. # [23:12] <llrcombs> .....
  587. # [23:12] * llrcombs pulls up the iSim
  588. # [23:12] <llrcombs> I'm pretty sure that's what MobileSafari DOES though
  589. # [23:13] * llrcombs tests on his virtual iPhone 4
  590. # [23:15] * Joins: justicefries (~gerred@c-98-245-71-126.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  591. # [23:15] <llrcombs> yep
  592. # [23:15] * justicefries is now known as JusticeFries
  593. # [23:16] <llrcombs> given style="width: 100; height: 100;", it resizes the width to the minimum height to display correctly
  594. # [23:16] <llrcombs> and the height to the height of the page
  595. # [23:16] <llrcombs> (correctly = without a scrollbar)
  596. # [23:17] <AryehGregor> Even cross-origin?
  597. # [23:17] <AryehGregor> That sounds like a security vulnerability.
  598. # [23:17] <llrcombs> ?
  599. # [23:17] <llrcombs> all it adjusts is the width+height
  600. # [23:17] <llrcombs> I was testing from a data: url, but I remember the same thing happening in W3Schools' TryIt editor
  601. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> Width+height leaks info.
  602. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> Whether you're logged into the site, for instance.
  603. # [23:18] <llrcombs> it's as though the "seamless" attribute is applied to every iframe
  604. # [23:18] <llrcombs> ahh, no, it's not actually specified
  605. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> And possibly lots of other fun stuff.
  606. # [23:18] <llrcombs> not in CSS
  607. # [23:18] <llrcombs> it's just as though you'd applied seamless
  608. # [23:18] <llrcombs> no vernurability beyond what would be provided by actually adding the seamless attribute
  609. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> seamless doesn't work cross-origin.
  610. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> For exactly this reason.
  611. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> Because it would be a security vulnerability if it did. :)
  612. # [23:20] <llrcombs> and...
  613. # [23:20] <llrcombs> Google put the sidebar back
  614. # [23:20] <llrcombs> just did it
  615. # [23:20] <llrcombs> I googled "iPhone iFrame"
  616. # [23:20] <llrcombs> then added "scroll" and voila, the sidebar's back
  617. # [23:21] <llrcombs> they always make their changes right when I'm searching stuff
  618. # [23:21] <llrcombs> except logos
  619. # [23:21] <zcorpan_> a<!--test-->b in VLC shows "a>b"
  620. # [23:22] <zcorpan_> a<01:00,000>b also shows "a>b"
  621. # [23:22] <llrcombs> #VLC
  622. # [23:23] <llrcombs> erm
  623. # [23:23] <llrcombs> nvm
  624. # [23:23] <llrcombs> ahh
  625. # [23:23] <llrcombs> must be one on another server
  626. # [23:23] <llrcombs> file a bug report @ their site
  627. # [23:23] <zcorpan_> the purpose of my testing is for websrt
  628. # [23:23] <llrcombs> ooh boy websrt
  629. # [23:24] * llrcombs can't wait for WK to add support for that
  630. # [23:25] <zcorpan_> it seems to ignore an unclosed <i> altogether and drops the whole cue if i use <I>
  631. # [23:25] <Slaanesh> zcorpan_: VLC is legendary for failing to parse subtitles properly
  632. # [23:25] <zcorpan_> Slaanesh: you know any specific examples?
  633. # [23:29] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  634. # [23:30] <erlehmann> zcorpan_, i once had a subtitle file that was tuned to fail on bad VLC parsing
  635. # [23:31] <zcorpan_> erlehmann: you don't have it anymore or can find it again?
  636. # [23:31] <erlehmann> while other players coped well with it, VLC only had a continuous stream of YOUR MEDIA PLAYER SUCKS or something like that
  637. # [23:31] <zcorpan_> lol
  638. # [23:31] <Slaanesh> Yeah, a few groups would make subs like that
  639. # [23:31] <erlehmann> i can look for it, but i do not think i have it anymore.
  640. # [23:31] <erlehmann> wait.
  641. # [23:31] <zcorpan_> media player equivalent of browser sniffing
  642. # [23:32] <erlehmann> _██_
  643. # [23:32] <erlehmann> (°ᴗƪ)
  644. # [23:32] <erlehmann> hilarious insight, chap
  645. # [23:33] * zcorpan_ successfully used that smiley in srt in vlc
  646. # [23:33] <Slaanesh> zcorpan_: Not really, you can't sniff in subtitles
  647. # [23:34] <Slaanesh> More like media player equivalent of <blink>
  648. # [23:34] <zcorpan_> Slaanesh: you can expose bugs to block some media players
  649. # [23:35] <Slaanesh> Yeah, but that's just feature detection
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  655. # Session Close: Tue Jul 06 00:00:00 2010

The end :)