/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-07-08 / end

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  53. # [02:05] <raggy_> is this the place to ask about offline manifest files?
  54. # [02:05] <AryehGregor> Probably.
  55. # [02:05] <AryehGregor> It's *a* place.
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  57. # [02:06] <raggy_> great :) I have a NETWORK: header with the url /api/* but never see a hit to anything in that folder?
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  59. # [02:07] <raggy_> I'm using jQuery on the client to hit the url with an ajax request.
  60. # [02:07] <raggy_> & testing with the iPhone Simulator
  61. # [02:07] <raggy_> can NETWORK paths have wildcards?
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  65. # [02:13] <Hixie> raggy_: remove the "*" -- it's a prefix match
  66. # [02:13] <Hixie> the "*" is unnecessary
  67. # [02:13] <Hixie> (and indeed means that /api/*foo would hit the network bet /api/foo would not)
  68. # [02:13] <raggy_> Hixie: perfect, thanks.
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  77. # [02:22] <TabAtkins> Hrm. Drawing up some demos, and for some reason I'm getting a "SECURITY_ERR: DOM Exception 18" when I try 'var idata = $("#back")[0].getContext('2d').getImageData(0,0,100,100);'.
  78. # [02:23] <TabAtkins> Am I doing anything obviously wrong?
  79. # [02:23] <kling> TabAtkins: tainted your canvas by drawImage()ing an image from another domain?
  80. # [02:24] <TabAtkins> I'm drawing a video from desktop. That might taint, right?
  81. # [02:24] <TabAtkins> That is, from file://
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  83. # [02:24] <kling> I suppose so, yeah. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#security-with-canvas-elements
  84. # [02:25] <TabAtkins> k, I'll upload to my server and try it there instead.
  85. # [02:25] * TabAtkins should get localhost working.
  86. # [02:25] <kling> which browser btw? ;)
  87. # [02:25] <TabAtkins> chrome 5
  88. # [02:26] <TabAtkins> Yup, works fine on server. Damn crazy file:// origin policies.
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  90. # [02:28] <TabAtkins> Wow, micro-optimizations can really help when you're trying to do realtime video processing.
  91. # [02:30] <TabAtkins> My lag went from noticeable (about 1/10th second) to unnoticeable just by using a temp var to kill a property access in a tight loop, and switching from /8 to >>>3.
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  93. # [02:34] <AryehGregor> >>3, you must mean.
  94. # [02:34] <AryehGregor> What language are you using?
  95. # [02:34] <AryehGregor> JavaScript?
  96. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  97. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> And no, I mean >>>, because I want to fill in 0s.
  98. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> >> propagates the sign.
  99. # [02:38] <AryehGregor> I've never heard of that convention in my life.
  100. # [02:38] <AryehGregor> It doesn't work in C, does it?
  101. # [02:38] <AryehGregor> Some JS-specific thing?
  102. # [02:38] <TabAtkins> I have no clue. I just know that's how JS works.
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  107. # [02:52] <estellevw> can anyone take a quick look at the code to this very simple <canvas> example and tell me if there is anyway to reduce any of the lines: http://standardista.com/webkit/ch7/canvas.html
  108. # [02:53] <estellevw> i know it's not the best use of canvas, but i am writing an intro tutorial to drawing shapes, and don't want to get anything wrong
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  113. # [03:02] <AryehGregor> Seems correct to me. Dunno much about canvas, though.
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  117. # [03:04] <TabAtkins> Same here. Looks roughly okay.
  118. # [03:05] <TabAtkins> Yay! Got all 3 of my demos done. Woo!
  119. # [03:05] * TabAtkins is now ready to actually give his talk tonight.
  120. # [03:05] <kling> knock 'em dead :)
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  122. # [03:07] <estellevw> thanks
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  124. # [03:09] <kling> estellevw: the call to context.scale() seems superfluous, otherwise fine. personally, i'd use save/restore to get rid of the shadow instead of setting a transparent shadowColor
  125. # [03:11] <estellevw> kling: i tried the save, restore but that didn't work, and read up that transparency would make the shadow not render, though it feels like a hack even though it's in the spec
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  128. # [03:12] <kling> estellevw: save/restore doesn't touch shadowColor? sounds like a bug.. which browser?
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  130. # [03:13] <estellevw> i didn't get it to touch shadowColor. Believe I tested in Opera 10.6 and Saf 5
  131. # [03:13] <estellevw> but i could have had the syntax wrong if it was supposed to.
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  133. # [03:17] <estellevw> kling: the scale was to test pixelation on scaling. when i scale transform canvas and svg, they both pixelate. I would have especially expected svg to not pixelate
  134. # [03:18] <kling> estellevw: hm. scaling an svg from an <img> element?
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  136. # [03:19] <estellevw> oh, it's only opera that pixelates. Safari doesn't
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  138. # [03:19] <estellevw> kling: just testing for rendering
  139. # [03:19] <kling> ah :)
  140. # [03:20] <estellevw> so when asked i can explain.
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  142. # [03:21] <estellevw> was trying to show that pixelation occurs with <canvas> but not <svg>
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  144. # [03:21] <estellevw> proven in Safari 5 ... was looking at Opera earlier.
  145. # [03:21] <estellevw> http://standardista.com/webkit/ch7/canvas2.html v. http://standardista.com/webkit/ch7/svg2.html
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  148. # [03:22] * kling is startled by the :hover zooming
  149. # [03:26] <estellevw> checking pixelation. My sandbox is full of hideousnesss and bad UI :D
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  151. # [03:32] <AryehGregor> The behavior of CSS transform on a vector image is probably undefined.
  152. # [03:32] <AryehGregor> CSS is usually vague like that.
  153. # [03:36] <AryehGregor> It just says "transform it using the given matrix", not "transform it by applying the given matrix to the collection of pixels" or "transform it by [some clever description that implies SVGs aren't pixellated]".
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  156. # [03:41] <estellevw> my understanding on the difference between SVG and Canvas, is that canvas is basically the painting of pixels. So, should pixelate on zoom. But SVG is "scalable" and "Vector" based graphics, so should scale.
  157. # [03:42] <AryehGregor> SVG does scale. If you changed the height and width, it would.
  158. # [03:42] <AryehGregor> But CSS transforms doesn't say one way or the other how it's supposed to work here, AFAICT.
  159. # [03:42] <AryehGregor> Scaling nicely seems like a better idea, but I didn't see it in the spec.
  160. # [03:42] <AryehGregor> (Maybe I should read the spec before I say stuff like that, though.)
  161. # [03:42] <estellevw> let me try with css: height and width
  162. # [03:42] <estellevw> instead
  163. # [03:42] <estellevw> rather, as well
  164. # [03:43] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that should work better, if you can get it to work.
  165. # [03:43] <AryehGregor> Should work on the <img>, at least.
  166. # [03:43] <estellevw> it renders as i expected in Safari 5
  167. # [03:43] <estellevw> canvas pixelated, svg didnt'
  168. # [03:43] <estellevw> same transform
  169. # [03:44] <AryehGregor> Yes, that makes more sense, but I don't think the spec requires the latter behavior.
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  172. # [03:51] <estellevw> <img> does work nicely, topmost of the three... sorry for the bad UX example (Opera 10.6 is the one that had the pixelation with transform) http://www.standardista.com/webkit/ch7/svg3.html
  173. # [03:51] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108) (Quit: Leaving...)
  174. # [03:54] <estellevw> but changing height on an element redraws the page. Repainting the page can be slow. I need to fine tooth comb the spec.
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  182. # [04:27] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10083#c14
  183. # [04:28] <AryehGregor> If Shelley doesn't have faith in the HTMLWG Decision Policy, and we don't have faith in the HTMLWG Decision Policy, who does?
  184. # [04:28] <AryehGregor> Anyone?
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  187. # [04:30] <boblet> hey all. does anyone know where HTML 4’s (soft) hyphenation info got to in HTML5? http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.3.3
  188. # [04:32] <othermaciej> it's not a deity, it would be inappropriate to have faith in it
  189. # [04:34] <othermaciej> boblet: that sounds like something that should be specified by CSS, not HTML
  190. # [04:34] <boblet> othermaciej: I’m thinking about &shy;
  191. # [04:35] <othermaciej> boblet: did you look in the entity table?
  192. # [04:35] <othermaciej> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#named-character-references
  193. # [04:36] <othermaciej> it defines what unicode character &shy; maps to
  194. # [04:37] <boblet> othermaciej: yep it’s there. the reason I ask is an HTML5Doctor q wondering if it had been internationalized (I’m guessing because some languages don’t insert hyphens (Japanese for example) but HTML 4 says “a hyphen character must be displayed”
  195. # [04:37] <boblet> othermaciej: found http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-text/#hyphenate btw :)
  196. # [04:45] <boblet> huh. wonder how <wbr> compares to &shy;
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  199. # [04:58] <othermaciej> <wbr> doesn't insert a hyphen
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  201. # [05:11] <boblet> othermaciej: aah — just a word break opportunity. thanks for the correction
  202. # [05:11] <boblet> s/word/line/
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  206. # [05:13] <TabAtkins_> Yay, talk went awesome!
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  209. # [05:16] <boblet> good stuff TabAtkins_ :) which talk?
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  213. # [05:19] <TabAtkins_> Quick hack talk at Google Tech User Group, about the fun things you can do with <video> and <canvas>.
  214. # [05:19] <boblet> nice :)
  215. # [05:20] <TabAtkins_> http://www.xanthir.com/video/demo0.html
  216. # [05:20] <TabAtkins_> And demo1, demo2, demo3
  217. # [05:20] <TabAtkins_> Page + source were my slides.
  218. # [05:21] <TabAtkins_> I pleasantly surprised myself with how easy it was to put together the demos.
  219. # [05:22] <TabAtkins_> A++++ Hixie for the <video>/<canvas> integration.
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  222. # [05:23] <llrcombs> WTF?
  223. # [05:23] <llrcombs> <video src=video controls</video>
  224. # [05:24] <TabAtkins_> Haha, did I accidentally leave off a >?
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  226. # [05:24] <llrcombs> yes
  227. # [05:24] <llrcombs> and there's just video
  228. # [05:24] <llrcombs> you need to quote that
  229. # [05:24] <TabAtkins_> No I don't.
  230. # [05:24] <llrcombs> yes you do
  231. # [05:24] <othermaciej> no he doesn't
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  233. # [05:25] <llrcombs> oh wait I'm thinking XHTML
  234. # [05:25] <boblet> lol
  235. # [05:25] <TabAtkins_> Leaving off the > is a mistake (though one which the browser recovers from). Leaving off the quotes is perfectly fine.
  236. # [05:25] <llrcombs> still, do it anyway (best practices)
  237. # [05:25] <llrcombs> and where's there a <canvas> in there?
  238. # [05:25] <TabAtkins_> My best practices is to leave them off when I know I can.
  239. # [05:25] <miketaylr> same
  240. # [05:25] <llrcombs> gets you into bad habits...
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  243. # [05:26] <TabAtkins_> demo0 doesn't have a canvas - it was just to show off the <video>, since some people at the talk may not have done any html5 hacking yet.
  244. # [05:26] <TabAtkins_> ?_? No it doesn't. It's very easy to tell when you need quotes - if it contains spaces, ', ", or `.
  245. # [05:26] <TabAtkins_> Or I guess >?
  246. # [05:26] <boblet> TabAtkins_ miketaylr that’s fine for you but does get c&p noobs into trouble
  247. # [05:27] <TabAtkins_> Noobs can get themselves into trouble all by themselves.
  248. # [05:27] <boblet> just something to keep in mind
  249. # [05:27] <miketaylr> <p id=reply>ORLY
  250. # [05:27] <boblet> TabAtkins_ too true. still I personally try to avoid helping them
  251. # [05:28] <miketaylr> ;)
  252. # [05:28] <TabAtkins_> I'd rather noobs not get the impression that all the cool people quote everything.
  253. # [05:28] <TabAtkins_> I'm calling it - I had the coolest talk at the meeting.
  254. # [05:28] <boblet> TabAtkins_ why not?
  255. # [05:28] <TabAtkins_> boblet: That way lies the "XHTML is faster because... because!" dogma.
  256. # [05:29] <llrcombs> OK, that's impressive
  257. # [05:29] <llrcombs> demo3
  258. # [05:29] <TabAtkins_> Hehe.
  259. # [05:29] <othermaciej> in actual browsers, XHTML is slower
  260. # [05:29] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, for that one I did the code walkthrough befor showing it, because I knew it would be really cool.
  261. # [05:30] <llrcombs> XHTML == ...lolwat?
  262. # [05:30] <boblet> hrm, it’s a tricky line to walk — HTML5’s (well, UA) ability to handle various coding styles is nice, but learners prefer rules without exceptions
  263. # [05:30] <TabAtkins_> I'm fine with tutorials teaching a "safe" style. But a random demo might as well show off the cooler, looser parts of HTML, like the ability to omit tags and quotes and such.
  264. # [05:31] * miketaylr notices implicit <html>, <head>, and <body>
  265. # [05:31] <boblet> TabAtkins_: gonna write one of them blog post thingies that links to all demos?
  266. # [05:32] <boblet> so I can tweetify it?
  267. # [05:32] <TabAtkins_> boblet: I don't have a blog. But I could.
  268. # [05:33] <TabAtkins_> Maybe I could write a guest entry for html5doctor?
  269. # [05:33] <boblet> ;)
  270. # [05:33] <boblet> would love you to do that
  271. # [05:33] <TabAtkins_> All right, we'll talk tomorrow about it.
  272. # [05:33] <TabAtkins_> What's the coding style for the posts?
  273. # [05:34] <boblet> rgr
  274. # [05:34] <boblet> whatever you want — I’ll fix up anything that needs fixing
  275. # [05:34] <TabAtkins_> All right, no problem.
  276. # [05:35] <boblet> normally we’re doing an element per post so quoting from the spec, but I’m guessing you’ll write up the combo of canvas, video and track right?
  277. # [05:35] <boblet> so more a show and tell than in-depth look
  278. # [05:36] <TabAtkins_> Not <track>. I'm not doing anything with that in the demos.
  279. # [05:36] <boblet> aah ok. ping me here or boblet on twitter. thanks in advance!
  280. # [05:37] <TabAtkins_> And yeah, my talk was just a quick surface tour of the video/canvas integration and what you can do with direct pixel access to the video frames.
  281. # [05:37] <TabAtkins_> Something to suggest future projects and provide some super-basic code to learn from.
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  288. # [06:37] <NetLarIrvine> any real good html 5 books out there?
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  290. # [06:40] <NetLarIrvine> I am a little confused about browser support for html 5
  291. # [06:42] <NetLarIrvine> How much does WebKit support it
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  309. # [07:50] <MikeSmith> sunshine!
  310. # [07:50] <MikeSmith> another beautiful day
  311. # [07:50] <MikeSmith> happy thoughts!
  312. # [07:51] <kennyluck> A hot day, I should say.
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  315. # [08:09] <estellevw> NetLarIrvine: you can take a look at http://caniuse.com to see what can now be used
  316. # [08:10] <estellevw> NetLarIrvine: I have way too indepth browser support grids at http://www.standardista.com. It doesn't cover everything, but provides an explanation of what it does cover. THere are support grids under the CSS3 and HTML5 tabs.
  317. # [08:12] <estellevw> NetLarIrvine: there are lots of support grids out there. The Safari DiveIntoHTML5.org also has support within the chapter introductions to various elements and attributes.
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  323. # [08:21] <MikeSmith> estellevw: would be good to have IE9 on your support tables
  324. # [08:21] <estellevw> I know, but I dont' have Windows Vista or 7, so haven't had a chance to test IE9 yet.
  325. # [08:22] <estellevw> unfortunately, IE9 won't run on XP
  326. # [08:22] <llrcombs> is it possible to define a start time for a <video>?
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  367. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/pdfs/html5_flash.pdf is interesting
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  369. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> "Developers should favor the lightest-weight technology that will meet their requirements." seems a pretty good principle in general
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  373. # [10:05] <othermaciej> since this is on Adobe's site, is it supposed to be pro-Flash?
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  380. # [10:18] <MikeSmithX> othermaciej: dunno. it seems like it's copyrighted by Gartner and perhaps there without authorization
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  384. # [10:23] <kennyluck> http://www.technologyreview.com/web/25728/?a=f
  385. # [10:23] <kennyluck> "Technology Review: Wikipedia to Add Meaning to Its Pages"
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  396. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: great to hear that Wikipedia is finally adding some meaning to its pages
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  400. # [11:14] <annevk> http://evc-cit.info/cit040/
  401. # [11:15] <annevk> looks like some need some further updates
  402. # [11:16] <kennyluck> HTML course? cool
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  406. # [11:24] <boblet> TabAtkins: btw one requirement re: code samples — they’ll need to be x-browser
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  408. # [11:27] <annevk> zcorpan_, I think Paul is wrong given that even the first edition clearly refers to the HTML <link> element
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  410. # [11:27] <annevk> zcorpan_, what he's saying about media="" makes no sense whatsoever
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  437. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> damn
  438. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> text selection in Terminal seems to be borked for me after most recent OSX system software update
  439. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> command-doubleclick seems to make the beachball appear every time, then spin spin spin
  440. # [13:16] <Rik`> what does cmd+doubleclick do ?
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  443. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> Rik`: select a word, I think
  444. # [13:26] <Rik`> doubleclick is enough for that
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  505. # [17:02] <llrcombs> is it possible to define a start time for a <video>?
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  509. # [17:08] <Lachy> llrcombs, use the DOM API to seek to the desired time before the video starts playing
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  518. # [17:30] <TabAtkins> boblet: Nothing in my code is Chrome-specific, just the video codec (since I just ripped it straight off of Youtube). I'll need to find an h264->theora encoder to make my demos work in FF and Opera.
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  521. # [17:31] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Not a WebM encoder?
  522. # [17:32] <TabAtkins> I suppose WebM would work, though it wouldn't work in public FF yet.
  523. # [17:32] <TabAtkins> Still, might as well be thorough. ^_^
  524. # [17:32] <Philip`> It will soon, and I'm not aware of any long-term reasons to continue using Theora
  525. # [17:32] <TabAtkins> FF4 does WebM, right?
  526. # [17:32] <zcorpan_> yep
  527. # [17:33] <llrcombs> Lachy: on what event?
  528. # [17:33] <llrcombs> aww, gone
  529. # [17:33] <TabAtkins> kk, I'll do that instead. So, where's an h264->webm encoder?
  530. # [17:33] <Philip`> http://www.webmproject.org/tools/ perhaps
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  533. # [17:36] <annevk> llrcombs, I think you can seek right away
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  535. # [17:36] <boblet> TabAtkins: yeah, that’d be good
  536. # [17:36] <annevk> so should we remove Theora support from Opera?
  537. # [17:37] <annevk> and Firefox / Chrome, but I have less influence there :)
  538. # [17:39] <llrcombs> immediately after element creation?
  539. # [17:39] <zcorpan_> "I'm currently converting a very simple Flash-animated advertisement into HTML5 and it's looking like switching to HTML5 is going to be more than ten times the work!" http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=4322
  540. # [17:39] <Philip`> annevk: Not while <video> demos rely on it
  541. # [17:39] <llrcombs> I'm getting:
  542. # [17:39] <llrcombs> INVALID_STATE_ERR: DOM Exception 11: An attempt was made to use an object that is not, or is no longer, usable.
  543. # [17:39] <annevk> llrcombs, ah ok
  544. # [17:39] <annevk> is the spec too hard to read?
  545. # [17:39] * Philip` doesn't know if there's much non-demo content that is unlikely to migrate to WebM
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  547. # [17:39] <llrcombs> who, me?
  548. # [17:39] * annevk looks
  549. # [17:40] <zcorpan_> Philip`: if we're going to remove it, seems better to remove it when only demos rely on it instead of 1% of the web relies on it
  550. # [17:40] <annevk> llrcombs, it seems you should wait for loadeddata to be dispatched
  551. # [17:40] <annevk> llrcombs, well, that's the earliest
  552. # [17:40] <annevk> afaict
  553. # [17:41] <annevk> you can also wait for canplay
  554. # [17:41] <zcorpan_> although i don't see any reason to remove support for theora
  555. # [17:41] <annevk> less features
  556. # [17:41] <annevk> to worry about
  557. # [17:41] <zcorpan_> yeah, less to maintain, true
  558. # [17:42] <annevk> less to tweak, optimize, port, etc.
  559. # [17:42] <llrcombs> videoEl.addEventListener("loadeddata",jumpToTime);?
  560. # [17:42] <annevk> especially with something as complex as a codec I'd think it's a win
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  562. # [17:42] <annevk> llrcombs, yeah, something like that
  563. # [17:42] <annevk> llrcombs, you prolly need a third argument though
  564. # [17:42] <annevk> llrcombs, jumpToTime, false)
  565. # [17:42] <zcorpan_> annevk: talk to foolip
  566. # [17:43] * annevk summons foolip
  567. # [17:43] <Philip`> zcorpan_: I assume 1% of the web wouldn't rely on it, since they'd have no reason to pick it instead of WebM, unless they've already got a load of Theora videos and don't have the originals to re-encode
  568. # [17:43] <Philip`> I guess Wikipedia might be in that category but I don't know who else
  569. # [17:44] <zcorpan_> Philip`: since when does content on the web use what makes sense instead of anything that is available?
  570. # [17:44] <Philip`> My assumption may indeed be foolish
  571. # [17:46] <miketaylr> TabAtkins: http://www.mirovideoconverter.com/
  572. # [17:46] <miketaylr> for h264 to webM
  573. # [17:46] <TabAtkins> Ah, danke miketaylr
  574. # [17:46] <miketaylr> de nada
  575. # [17:46] <TabAtkins> Crap, windows or mac only?
  576. # [17:47] <miketaylr> :/
  577. # [17:47] * TabAtkins switches to his windows machine for a minute.
  578. # [17:47] <Evet> where to discuss about semantic web?
  579. # [17:48] <llrcombs> oh yeah
  580. # [17:48] <annevk> Evet, I think that's #swig
  581. # [17:48] <llrcombs> thx
  582. # [17:48] <annevk> Evet, but I'm not sure
  583. # [17:48] <llrcombs> actually, I don't think the last one's required
  584. # [17:48] <Evet> annevk: i think thats ok. thanks
  585. # [17:48] <annevk> llrcombs, might depend on the browser, but per the current specification it is
  586. # [17:49] <llrcombs> well, I should add that where it's missing
  587. # [17:49] <annevk> (it should become optional though, the argument is hardly ever useful)
  588. # [17:49] <llrcombs> true
  589. # [17:49] * TabAtkins is once again temporarily stymied by the fact that computers don't come with a decent ftp client pre-installed.
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  596. # [17:53] <annevk> TabAtkins, not running Ubuntu?
  597. # [17:53] <TabAtkins> annevk: On my windows box.
  598. # [17:53] <TabAtkins> Taken care of now, of course - I just pulled down filezilla real quick.
  599. # [17:53] <annevk> if you don't get a decent OS don't expect decent things
  600. # [17:54] <TabAtkins> Blame miketaylr for recommending a program that only runs on win and mac.
  601. # [17:54] * miketaylr hides
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  604. # [17:55] <KaOSoFt> ._.
  605. # [17:55] <TabAtkins> Anyway, conversion is going now. Slick little program.
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  628. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> Hrm. I don't understand why Opera decided it won't play the video at http://www.xanthir.com/video/demo0.html, but it will play the exact same file on my desktop.
  629. # [18:31] <annevk> media type?
  630. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> video/webm? (Guessed on that one.)
  631. # [18:31] <annevk> I think so
  632. # [18:31] <annevk> but http://www.xanthir.com/video/webm does not have that
  633. # [18:32] <annevk> it's text/plain :)
  634. # [18:32] <annevk> HTTP is hard...
  635. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> Gah, I'm telling it what the media type is in <source>. It shouldn't pay any attention to the Content-Type. >_<
  636. # [18:32] <annevk> and really, Content-Type is not needed at all with file signatures
  637. # [18:32] <annevk> TabAtkins, of course it should
  638. # [18:32] <annevk> TabAtkins, rtfs
  639. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> I refuse!
  640. # [18:34] * TabAtkins just flails at his keyboard and is happy when something usable comes out.
  641. # [18:34] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  642. # [18:34] <annevk> that sounds like trying to let monkeys write shakespeare
  643. # [18:35] <Philip`> When I flail at my keyboard, all that comes out is crumbs and hairs
  644. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> Anyway, I'll go set the content-types appropriately.
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  648. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> All right, done. Works in Opera now. Anyone got a firefox beta they want to help me test with?
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  651. # [19:05] <paul_irish> TabAtkins: fails in minefield. i added the ogv to mine and everything was peachy
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  654. # [19:06] <paul_irish> btw i had the webm and theora in place last night on this. ;)
  655. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> Bah.
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  657. # [19:07] <paul_irish> hey i remember a conversation about what you could get away with while using unquoted attributes..
  658. # [19:07] <paul_irish> was there a resolution on that?
  659. # [19:08] <paul_irish> i'm mostly interested in what current useragents will allow.. (ie6 and everyone else) rather than what the spec sez
  660. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> Hm? You can "get away with" anything that doesn't contain a space, any of the quotes, or >.
  661. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> Dunno about <. That might kill things too.
  662. # [19:08] <paul_irish> Good. that's what I was hoping for.
  663. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> I'm yanking your theora video for myself.
  664. # [19:09] <paul_irish> TabAtkins: the demo is a hit, for sure.
  665. # [19:11] <TabAtkins> Heh, I see all the retweets of your post.
  666. # [19:14] * Quits: Smylers (~Smylers@leeds01-fw.internal.pipex.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  667. # [19:15] * TabAtkins needs to write a chrome extension for it now so it can run on everything on youtube.
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  669. # [19:15] <aboodman> :)
  670. # [19:18] <TabAtkins> paul_irish: Check it in minefield now?
  671. # [19:19] * Quits: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  672. # [19:21] <Peter-> Samurai Pizza Cats, awesome
  673. # [19:21] <Peter-> I used to watch that show
  674. # [19:21] <TabAtkins> Yeah, me too. ^_^
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  679. # [19:30] <variable> TabAtkins, there was a recent discussion about "<"
  680. # [19:30] <variable> current UAs allow it and the spec will also allow it
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  683. # [19:31] <TabAtkins> variable: kk, cool. I just know that "<video src=video</video>" was working 'correctly', so I wasn't sure if the < was immediatley breaking out of the attribute or only doing so because it looked like part of an end-tag.
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  685. # [19:32] <variable> I think it is because it looks like an end tag
  686. # [19:32] <variable> does <video src=video<b>foo</b> work "correctly" ?
  687. # [19:33] <TabAtkins> To test it for real I'd need a firefox nightly - at the moment all my browsers are pre-html5-parser.
  688. # [19:33] * TabAtkins supposes he could turn on the html5 parser in his ff.
  689. # [19:34] <Peter-> Wouldn't the "foo" be seen as fallback-content until another block-level element occurs?
  690. # [19:34] <variable> TabAtkins, about:config html5.enabled --> on
  691. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> variable: Yeah, just turned it on.
  692. # [19:34] <variable> although on my windows box I use FF nightly anyay
  693. # [19:35] <TabAtkins> variable: No, it does not work correctly. The "<b" are sucked into the attribute value, and then the ">" closes the tag, leaving the "foo</b>" as the contents.
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  697. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> http://www.xanthir.com/:suh
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  700. # [20:03] <Philip`> paul_irish: IE handles ` like a quote character too, so you can't start unquoted attribute value with that
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  702. # [20:04] <Hixie> i forget, do y'all prefer it when an IDL attribute throws an exception when you set an invalid value, or do you prefer it to ignore hte invalid value?
  703. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> Personally prefer exceptions.
  704. # [20:05] <zcorpan_> Hixie: it depends
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  706. # [20:06] <zcorpan_> Hixie: if it can be invalid sometimes because of race conditions or the author forgets a special case, then throwing is a bad idea
  707. # [20:07] <zcorpan_> Hixie: since it breaks the page sometimes or for some users
  708. # [20:07] <Hixie> this is for timedTrack.mode
  709. # [20:07] <Hixie> it is either 0, 1, or 2
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  711. # [20:07] <Hixie> disabled, hidden, showing
  712. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> Then yeah, throw.
  713. # [20:08] <zcorpan_> that seems ok to throw
  714. # [20:08] <Hixie> k
  715. # [20:08] * TabAtkins just likes things that are easy to debug, and exceptions are nice for that.
  716. # [20:09] * Hixie tries to work out which exception to use
  717. # [20:09] <Hixie> INVALID_ACCESS_ERR maybe
  718. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> Access?
  719. # [20:11] <Hixie> it's definition seems the closest to what is appropriate her
  720. # [20:11] <Hixie> e
  721. # [20:11] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@209.52.84.51) (Client Quit)
  722. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> Hmm, guess so. The name is unintuitive, but a quick search turns up a useful definition.
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  724. # [20:13] <fwaokda> I'm trying to get my ListView to display all strings in the array, but it's only displaying the first. Anyone can take a look here: http://pastebin.com/xeCS7494 -- and see if they can spot my error?
  725. # [20:13] <zcorpan_> or NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR if you intend to add more modes in the future?
  726. # [20:13] <Hixie> dunno what modes we'd add
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  729. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> fwaokda: This probably isn't the best room for java/android dev.
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  731. # [20:14] <fwaokda> TabAtkins, ya just saw was in wrong channel ;) sry
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  746. # [20:32] <paul_irish> TabAtkins: http://paulirish.com/work/video2ascii/webkit.html
  747. # [20:32] <paul_irish> okay i guess i'll work now..
  748. # [20:32] <Peter-> ..lmao
  749. # [20:32] <TabAtkins> Hahaha
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  780. # [21:26] * bzed is now known as Guest16878
  781. # [21:27] <Philip`> I love it when web sites redirect me to a http://0.0.0.0?... URL when I click "submit" to confirm a payment
  782. # [21:27] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@209.52.84.51) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  783. # [21:27] * Philip` eventually concluded it probably didn't perform the payment, then switched to a different browser which the site worked better in
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  787. # [21:40] <zcorpan_> http://www.delphiki.com/websrt/
  788. # [21:41] <Hixie> pretty good except for the bit at the bottom
  789. # [21:42] <zcorpan_> yeah seems he misunderstood karaoke timestamps
  790. # [21:43] * remysharp-away is now known as remysharp
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  792. # [21:44] <zcorpan_> Hixie: btw why can't </rt> be omitted?
  793. # [21:46] * Joins: apucacao (~apucacao@S010600226b6dbc54.vc.shawcable.net)
  794. # [21:46] <Hixie> in the syntax or in the parser?
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  796. # [21:47] <zcorpan_> both
  797. # [21:47] <Hixie> didn't really think about it
  798. # [21:48] <Hixie> just seemed simpler this way
  799. # [21:48] <Hixie> i guess if people want we can make it optional
  800. # [21:49] <zcorpan_> i saw subtitles with seemingly deliberatly omitting </i> by just looking at a handful
  801. # [21:49] <zcorpan_> doesn't seem like a stretch that people are going to omit </rt> especially since it's optional in html
  802. # [21:49] <Hixie> yeah seems reasonable
  803. # [21:49] <Hixie> file a bug and i'll look into it
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  807. # [21:56] <llrcombs> annevk: you here?
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  809. # [22:02] * karlushi might be interested by Jonas version of the specification
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  812. # [22:09] <dandaman> so I'm using html5 to create a movile website, i was wondering what i should keep in mind when making it
  813. # [22:09] <llrcombs> a movie site, as in a streaming site?
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  815. # [22:09] <llrcombs> s/streaming/youtube-ish/
  816. # [22:10] <llrcombs> video-sharing?
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  818. # [22:11] <zcorpan_> has italics stopped working in vlc 1.1.0?
  819. # [22:11] <dandaman> no
  820. # [22:11] <dandaman> just a signup site
  821. # [22:11] <dandaman> i meant mobile
  822. # [22:11] <dandaman> not movile :\
  823. # [22:12] <llrcombs> oh
  824. # [22:12] <zcorpan_> dandaman: keep in mind that the screen is no bigger than what can fit in your pocket
  825. # [22:14] <dandaman> that is pretty much it then?
  826. # [22:15] <zcorpan_> http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/2010/04/12/making-your-site-mobile-friendly-rit-2010-moscow
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  828. # [22:16] <dandaman> awesome, just the link i was looking for
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  834. # [22:27] <annevk> llrcombs, am now
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  836. # [22:28] <annevk> Hixie, actually, ignoring seems to be the convention
  837. # [22:29] <annevk> Hixie, that way you don't have to do try/catch nonsense when new values come around and otherwise it is just the same
  838. # [22:29] <annevk> Hixie, see e.g. most attributes on the 2D context API
  839. # [22:40] <annevk> sweet
  840. # [22:41] <annevk> a guy supposedly from Microsoft with a yahoo.com email address starts commenting on hybi
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  842. # [22:41] <annevk> on the requirements document...
  843. # [22:41] * annevk reads
  844. # [22:43] <annevk> make that skimming
  845. # [22:43] <annevk> seems mostly nitpicking
  846. # [22:43] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
  847. # [22:44] <annevk> lol
  848. # [22:44] <annevk> someone on public-html-comments is trying to explain to me how the ID and NAME attributes work and how they're different
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  850. # [22:46] <annevk> I do agree with him that the window named item stuff is horribly ugly
  851. # [22:46] <zcorpan_> should we limit it to quirks mode?
  852. # [22:46] <annevk> an odd question coming from you
  853. # [22:47] <annevk> changed your mind on that?
  854. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> Does that stuff happen before or after js globals get defined?
  855. # [22:48] <zcorpan_> no, but if all webdevs hate it it might be a good thing
  856. # [22:48] <annevk> fair enough
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  860. # [22:49] <zcorpan_> TabAtkins: what do you mean?
  861. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> If a @name gets turned into a global on window, and a js variable of the same name gets defined as a global, which wins?
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  863. # [22:52] <zcorpan_> the variable
  864. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> That's what I thought.
  865. # [22:54] <llrcombs> when I try to set a <video>'s .currentTime in the canPlay event, I get INDEX_SIZE_ERR: DOM Exception 1: Index or size was negative, or greater than the allowed value.
  866. # [22:55] <llrcombs> should I be waiting for a later event?
  867. # [22:55] <zcorpan_> does you server support range requests?
  868. # [22:56] <llrcombs> here, it's YouTube
  869. # [22:56] <llrcombs> so yes
  870. # [22:56] <llrcombs> (however, FLV videos don't work with range requests because their indexes aren't at the beginning of the file)
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  872. # [22:56] <zcorpan_> then you should be able to seek to anywhere between starttime and duration
  873. # [22:56] <llrcombs> is there a canPlayTo()?
  874. # [22:57] <zcorpan_> there's .seekable
  875. # [22:59] <llrcombs> document.getElementsByTagName("video")[0].seekable.end() is giving the latest loaded portion
  876. # [22:59] <llrcombs> given an FLV
  877. # [23:00] * zcorpan_ is concerned about use of .end() without a parameter
  878. # [23:01] <llrcombs> what should the parameter be?
  879. # [23:01] <llrcombs> I didn't know seekable existed, so I experimented
  880. # [23:02] <zcorpan_> index of the range you're interested in
  881. # [23:02] <llrcombs> and it returns...
  882. # [23:03] <zcorpan_> Returns the time for the end of the range with the given index.
  883. # [23:04] <llrcombs> alrighty, so I should leave the param as 0
  884. # [23:04] <llrcombs> what I want to do is jump to a certain point in the video ASAP
  885. # [23:04] <llrcombs> (a point defined in window.location.hash)
  886. # [23:05] <zcorpan_> if range requests don't work with flv, then maybe you can use a different format? range request search is what you want
  887. # [23:06] <llrcombs> well, I don't have control over the format
  888. # [23:06] <zcorpan_> which browser supports playing flv in video?
  889. # [23:06] <llrcombs> I can force YouTube to load an MP4, but that often degrades quality
  890. # [23:06] <llrcombs> Safari with Perian
  891. # [23:06] <zcorpan_> ok
  892. # [23:07] <llrcombs> if an MP4 is loaded (because that's the highest-quality version available, or Perian is not installed), this should work fine
  893. # [23:07] <zcorpan_> i guess you can poll seekable
  894. # [23:07] <zcorpan_> or just try/catch setting currentTime
  895. # [23:07] <llrcombs> and retry on an interval?
  896. # [23:07] <zcorpan_> yeah
  897. # [23:08] <llrcombs> or set the onProgress (or whatever the event name is) handler
  898. # [23:08] <zcorpan_> although the spec might be changed (or has already been changed? don't recall) so that currentTime doesn't throw but seeks to the closest time that is seekable
  899. # [23:08] <llrcombs> well, currently, in WebKit (my target audience), it throws
  900. # [23:09] <zcorpan_> "If the (possibly now changed) new playback position is not in one of the ranges given in the seekable attribute, then let it be the position in one of the ranges given in the seekable attribute that is the nearest to the new playback position."
  901. # [23:09] <zcorpan_> expect webkit to change to match the spec
  902. # [23:10] <zcorpan_> so polling seekable seems better than causing a seek
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  904. # [23:12] <llrcombs> (I'm trying to emulate YouTube's #t=<n>m<n>s for HTML5)
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  918. # [23:47] <dandaman> can anyone direct me how to a site or an explanation on how to make a site fit to screen...still developing this site for mobile phones
  919. # [23:47] <dandaman> would be nice for it to scale
  920. # [23:48] <zcorpan_> do you want a different default zoom level?
  921. # [23:49] <dandaman> i want the zoom level to be default
  922. # [23:49] <dandaman> make it depend on the resolution of the viewer's screen
  923. # [23:49] <dandaman> not sure if that is possible :\
  924. # [23:50] <zcorpan_> maybe you want the viewport meta tag
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  926. # [23:51] <dandaman> thanks
  927. # [23:51] <dandaman> ill look it up
  928. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> Check out ppk's exploration of that on quirksmode.
  929. # [23:54] <dandaman> hey zcorpan_: you're awesome
  930. # [23:56] <zcorpan_> dandaman: i'll send a bill :)
  931. # [23:59] <dandaman> hold off on it
  932. # [23:59] <dandaman> it didnt work
  933. # Session Close: Fri Jul 09 00:00:00 2010

The end :)