/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-07-14 / end

Options:

# Session Start: Wed Jul 14 00:00:00 2010
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <Hixie> why is that a problem?
# [00:00] <jgraham> Well it is unexpected I think
# [00:00] <Hixie> by whom?
# [00:01] <Hixie> it seems normal to me...
# [00:01] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
# [00:01] <jgraham> By (one of the) documents that is being accessed by a document on a different domain without having changed its document.domain to permit it
# [00:01] <jgraham> I guess
# [00:02] <jgraham> (I am told that the demo could be made to work in Opera too with a little more effort and cooperation)
# [00:02] <gsnedders> jgraham: Stop working.
# [00:02] <gsnedders> jgraham: It's almost midnight.
# [00:02] <gsnedders> Sorry, I feel it's my duty to remind you of these things.
# [00:02] <jgraham> gsnedders: No, it is midnight
# [00:03] <gsnedders> It wasn't when I sent it.
# [00:03] <zcorpan_> yes it was
# [00:03] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.159.231) (Quit: boaz)
# [00:04] <jgraham> Hixie: the proposed solution, if one is needed, would be to make document.domain readonly after making a cross-origin access
# [00:04] <gsnedders> My IRC client, with the time from pool.ntp.org thinks it was 23:59 damnit
# [00:04] <jgraham> I have no opinion on whether that is sensible or web compatible
# [00:04] <jgraham> or needed
# [00:05] <Hixie> jgraham: well unless there's an actual vulnerability or compatibility issue here, i'd rather not change the web's security model
# [00:06] <jgraham> Yeah I don't know. Maybe I will post to the list tommorrow and hope that some evil people have an opinion on whether it is harmless
# [00:06] <jgraham> I mean other evil people
# [00:07] <jgraham> I don't mean to understate your evilness
# [00:07] <annevk> fwiw, I would prefer it if arguments to ::cue() behaved like type selectors and were not thrown out
# [00:07] <jgraham> gsnedders: But you do have a point
# [00:08] <Hixie> annevk: thrown out of the CSSOM or ignored for rendering?
# [00:08] <annevk> that way if we add <mark> or whatever in the future you can use it in a comma-separated list without older clients barfing
# [00:08] <Hixie> annevk: the comma would cause older clients to barf, not the new tag :-)
# [00:08] * gsnedders follows his own point and goes to sleep
# [00:08] <annevk> ::cue(i), ::cue(future-element) { }
# [00:08] <jgraham> It is a bit late to be doing anything not involving sleep
# [00:08] <gsnedders> (not that I was working)
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> annevk: The whole point of throwing things out is for older clients to not screw things up.
# [00:08] <Hixie> annevk: oh i see
# [00:09] <annevk> TabAtkins, we don't ignore i, future-element either
# [00:09] <Hixie> annevk: so allow any keywords just make it not match if there are unknown keywords?
# [00:09] <annevk> yeah
# [00:09] <annevk> seems more consistent
# [00:09] <Hixie> annevk: we do ignore :first-child, :fifth-child { }
# [00:10] <TabAtkins> annevk: Ah, I see what you mean.
# [00:10] <annevk> Hixie, not sure if that was a good idea or not
# [00:11] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, thinking about it a bit, doing "accept but dont' match anything" in selectors is the right behavior.
# [00:13] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
# [00:15] <annevk> I'm not really sure why the ::first-child, ::unknown-child thing makes sense; I helped get it implemented in browsers, but I have no idea why it makes sense... I guess because the names are part of the syntax somehow...
# [00:16] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it's silly.
# [00:16] <TabAtkins> Think we could change it at this point?
# [00:17] <annevk> I'm not sure if it's worth the hassle
# [00:17] <annevk> but at least we can avoid it with idents specified within ::cue
# [00:18] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [00:19] <zcorpan_> we can't change it, people use it to as a css filter these days
# [00:19] <annevk> (Of course everything can be changed. In this case likely glazou and Bert will complain. Implementors will not be too happy with changes. QA will not be happy with changes. 0.0001% of the authors might care. Net benefit is that the language is somewhat saner, but mwah, who cares?)
# [00:19] <zcorpan_> or at least with attribute selectors
# [00:20] <TabAtkins> Holy crap authors-that-aren't-me are stupid.
# [00:21] <Hixie> ok i'm done with the first draft of the timed track stuff
# [00:21] <Hixie> you may now begin flaming me
# [00:22] <Hixie> (i haven't yet added all the properties to the whitelists that need adding)
# [00:22] <Hixie> (like border, padding)
# [00:22] <annevk> someone was in here a couple of days ago arguing that we could not do WebSRT based on CSS because it didn't have text-outline
# [00:23] <TabAtkins> That was assuming that we didn't do a background on the cue box.
# [00:23] <TabAtkins> (Which we are, given the default CSS.)
# [00:23] <TabAtkins> And even then, "color: white; text-shadow: 0px 0px 2px black;" works fine.
# [00:23] <zcorpan_> text-outline seems nicer than background
# [00:24] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: aroben)
# [00:24] <annevk> Hixie, s/Italics Objects/Italic Objects/ ?
# [00:24] <TabAtkins> Or, wait, I actually use 4 shadows on the text I'm looking at.
# [00:25] <Hixie> annevk: ta
# [00:25] <TabAtkins> 1 1, 1 -1, -1 -1, -1 1.
# [00:25] <Hixie> annevk: (i'm still going through fixing minor issues like that)
# [00:25] <annevk> Hixie, it seems you miss a bunch of closing spans as well for timed track cue voice identifier
# [00:25] <annevk> k
# [00:25] <Hixie> yeah i'm going through validator and xref bugs now
# [00:26] <Hixie> ok i'm gonna take a break and send an e-mail about <device>
# [00:27] <Hixie> i'll pause on the captions stuff for now, then get back to it in a bit after the websockets stuff and whatever else i have queued up
# [00:27] <Hixie> parser bugs
# [00:27] <annevk> I'm gonna read all that tomorrow :) good day
# [00:27] <annevk> nn
# [00:27] <Hixie> web apps cr
# [00:27] <Hixie> etc
# [00:27] <Hixie> nn
# [00:28] <zcorpan_> yay websockets
# [00:29] <Hixie> oh and change proposals
# [00:29] <Hixie> i guess web sockets is next week
# [00:30] <Hixie> bbiab
# [00:32] * Joins: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-163-155.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
# [00:33] * Quits: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.159.231) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [00:35] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
# [00:35] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-37-112.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [00:38] * Joins: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.159.231)
# [00:41] * Joins: eseidel (~eseidel@c-67-160-202-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [00:45] <TabAtkins> Urgh. Every API from now until forever should treat collections of a single objects being equivalent to the object itself, and operations if an operation is done to a collection that's only valid on the objects in the collection, map the operation over the collection.
# [00:45] <AryehGregor> That sounds like it will break horribly in some cases.
# [00:46] <TabAtkins> Then you're doing things wrong.
# [00:46] <AryehGregor> Like, if your single object is itself a collection, everything will get extremely confused.
# [00:46] * vanilleeis is now known as erlehmann
# [00:46] <AryehGregor> It doesn't work for anything that needs to sometimes operate on single objects and sometimes on collections.
# [00:46] <TabAtkins> Arbitrary nesting is excused from this requirement.
# [00:46] <TabAtkins> But when you can tell the difference between an object and a collection, then it should work as described.
# [00:47] <AryehGregor> Also, it often doesn't really make sense. If you do len(0) in Python, should it really return 1 instead of throwing an exception because you're doing something stupid?
# [00:47] <AryehGregor> That kind of behavior masks bugs.
# [00:47] <TabAtkins> ?_? I don't see how len(0) is a relevant example.
# [00:48] <AryehGregor> According to you, it should be treated like len([0]) and return 1.
# [00:48] <TabAtkins> No, you have it wrong way round.
# [00:48] <TabAtkins> And, still, arrays can be arbitrarily nested, and so are exempt from this.
# [00:49] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@c-d798e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan_)
# [00:49] <TabAtkins> But, frex, in Django, Test.objects.all().id should return a list of ids of all the objects.
# [00:50] <TabAtkins> (Rather than me having to explicitly map over the return value with [test.id for test in Test.objects.all()]
# [00:50] <AryehGregor> Oh, I thought you were going both ways.
# [00:51] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-170-165-184.dyn.iinet.net.au)
# [00:51] <AryehGregor> Then your proposal superficially seems less objectionable.
# [00:51] <AryehGregor> This could be coded in at a language level, in principle.
# [00:51] <TabAtkins> Hmm, only insofar as something has a priviledged container type. Then you can treat a single object equivalently to a container containing that single object.
# [00:51] * Joins: ojan (~ojan@nat/google/x-dyczimnmwdluzsoi)
# [00:52] <TabAtkins> But otherwise you can only auto-go from single-element container to the element itself, not in reverse.
# [00:52] <AryehGregor> But you just said that's the only direction you want to go in.
# [00:52] * TabAtkins supposes this relies largely on privileged container types all the way through, actually.
# [00:52] <AryehGregor> All you need is some notion of a container, there doesn't have to be only one.
# [00:53] <AryehGregor> C++ and Python have the notion of a general container, that's enough.
# [00:53] * Quits: oal (~oal@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [00:53] <TabAtkins> Not quite, because general containers can be objecs in and of themselves.
# [00:53] <AryehGregor> So?
# [00:54] <TabAtkins> So magicking them in this manner can cause problems.
# [00:54] <AryehGregor> So in Python, if you access foo.bar, and foo does not have a property named bar, but it's a container of class Foo and all of its contents do, then return Foo(x.bar for x in foo).
# [00:54] <AryehGregor> Recursively.
# [00:54] * AryehGregor just got scared at that last word.
# [00:54] * Quits: jlebar (~jlebar@63.245.220.220) (Read error: Operation timed out)
# [00:54] <TabAtkins> But when you have, say, Nodes and NodeLists, then it's fine to do Nodelist.foo when .foo is only defined for Nodes.
# [00:56] <TabAtkins> Or foo(NodeList), if foo() normally only takes a single Node and NodeList contains only a single Node.
# [00:57] <AryehGregor> If NodeList doesn't contain only a single Node, that should become (foo(x) for x in list) or something.
# [00:57] <AryehGregor> This is inconsistent, though.
# [00:57] <AryehGregor> I think the "always treat it as mapping the contents to a tuple" is probably more consistent.
# [00:57] <TabAtkins> No it's not. There's a difference between a function and a method.
# [00:58] <AryehGregor> I don't see why there should be in this case.
# [00:58] <TabAtkins> Methods would be mapped. Functions would auto-unwrap.
# [00:58] <AryehGregor> Why?
# [00:58] <TabAtkins> Because it's convenient?
# [00:58] * Joins: apucacao (~apucacao@d99-199-124-160.bchsia.telus.net)
# [00:58] <AryehGregor> It's inconsistent.
# [00:59] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com)
# [00:59] <TabAtkins> Only because you're insisting that methods and functions must be treated the same.
# [01:01] <AryehGregor> Because they are logically very similar.
# [01:01] <TabAtkins> But not identical in most languages, and so a distinction between them can be made without being inconsistent.
# [01:02] <AryehGregor> Making an artificial distinction between two very similar things is inconsistent.
# [01:02] <TabAtkins> No, distinguishing between two *identical* things is.
# [01:02] <TabAtkins> "Very similar" admits a distinction by definition.
# [01:02] <AryehGregor> By that logic, there's no such thing as inconsistency, because as soon as you distinguish two things, they're different.
# [01:03] * Quits: jgornick (~joe@199.199.212.242) (Quit: jgornick)
# [01:03] <AryehGregor> Also, by the way, this scheme will completely blow up in so many cases.
# [01:03] <TabAtkins> It works for jQuery.
# [01:03] <AryehGregor> Like if the container actually contains an unlimited amount of stuff.
# [01:03] <AryehGregor> It has to be selectively opted into, though, not imposed at the language level.
# [01:03] <TabAtkins> If you have an infinite container, you ahve lazy maps to start with.
# [01:03] <AryehGregor> Maybe it could have opt-in allowed at the language level, to make it easier.
# [01:03] <AryehGregor> Probably excessive.
# [01:04] <TabAtkins> All I know is, there is absolutely no need to distinguish between whether $("p") matches one or multiple results in jQuery. There are many other APIs I've run into where a similar facility would be useful.
# [01:06] * Quits: roc (~roc@121.98.230.221) (Quit: roc)
# [01:12] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc5-seac20-2-0-cust2.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
# [01:13] * Joins: jlebar (~jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-wyzgpvqfymnddulu)
# [01:15] * Joins: franksalim (~frank@adsl-75-61-93-123.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
# [01:16] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
# [01:17] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0)
# [01:22] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
# [01:22] * Quits: apucacao (~apucacao@d99-199-124-160.bchsia.telus.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [01:32] * Quits: eseidel (~eseidel@c-67-160-202-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: eseidel)
# [01:34] * Quits: gratz|home (~gratz@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust237.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving)
# [01:35] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [01:39] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@133.27.228.171) (Quit: kennyluck)
# [01:46] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:2900:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7)
# [01:46] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-lzgswsvfhpyjrqfu) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [01:50] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@dslb-188-103-017-018.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [01:51] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:2900:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [01:51] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:2900:226:8ff:fe07:40c6)
# [01:58] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [02:07] * Quits: sebmarkbage (~miranda@h-70-237.A146.priv.bahnhof.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [02:10] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p1201-ipbf709osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
# [02:11] <Hixie> well, i see my e-mail wasn't clear enough
# [02:11] <Hixie> sigh
# [02:11] <TabAtkins> On the other hand, I found the response pretty amusing.
# [02:13] <Hixie> yes :-)
# [02:14] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@U017209.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
# [02:17] * Quits: slightlyoff (~slightlyo@nat/google/x-mxtucnasszwtkemk) (Quit: slightlyoff)
# [02:19] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-170-165-184.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [02:20] * Quits: ojan (~ojan@nat/google/x-dyczimnmwdluzsoi) (Quit: ojan)
# [02:25] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
# [02:32] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [02:33] * Joins: seventh (galofort@208.98.1.237)
# [02:33] * Joins: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
# [02:46] * Quits: jlebar (~jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-wyzgpvqfymnddulu) (Quit: Leaving)
# [02:56] * Joins: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison)
# [02:56] <TabAtkins> Oh wow, really? A legacy D-Link router? That's crazy.
# [02:58] * Joins: eseidel (~eseidel@c-76-102-48-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [03:00] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-phfrfyauuodaselc) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
# [03:00] <Hixie> eseidel: i've begun changing the parser
# [03:00] <Hixie> you can track changes at http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
# [03:04] * Quits: yutak_home (~kee@U017209.ppp.dion.ne.jp) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
# [03:11] * Quits: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-24-5-147-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [03:12] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: zzzzz)
# [03:28] <eseidel> Hixie: thank you. I'll start implemnting your fixes tomorrow. I still need to talk to hsivonen, but he's been AWOL :p
# [03:29] <eseidel> hsivonen: we should really sync up our test cases. We've written a bunch more for your fancy harness
# [03:31] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:4aff:fe14:aad6) (Quit: ap)
# [03:33] <eseidel> Hixie: I do not understand the mental model behind foreign content
# [03:33] <eseidel> it was not clear to me from the spec
# [03:33] * Joins: MikeSmithXX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-45-110.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
# [03:33] <eseidel> sec
# [03:34] <Hixie> mental model?
# [03:36] * Quits: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-163-155.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [03:36] <eseidel> Hixie: sorry, got a phoen call right as I was starting to explain
# [03:36] <eseidel> it's unclear what to do with misnested tags in forieng content mode
# [03:36] <Hixie> misnested how precisely?
# [03:37] <eseidel> <div><svg></div></svg>
# [03:37] <Hixie> (my usual answer is "just do what the spec says", but i'll wait until the spec bugs are fixed before saying that again :-) )
# [03:37] <eseidel> is the idea that any non-foreign tag, breaks out of fo?
# [03:37] <eseidel> fc, rather
# [03:37] <Hixie> that should be treated as <div><svg></svg></div></bogus>, iirc
# [03:37] <eseidel> interesting
# [03:38] <Hixie> (is that what the spec now says?)
# [03:38] <Hixie> basically the idea was that we wanted to add svg and mathml parsing with minimum impact on existing documents
# [03:38] <Hixie> including documents that already contained bogus <svg> elements
# [03:38] <eseidel> Hixie: I think I'll wait until you're done editing
# [03:38] <Hixie> k
# [03:38] <eseidel> since I don't feel i'm explaining myself well
# [03:39] <eseidel> likely due to distractions
# [03:39] <Hixie> k
# [03:42] <eseidel> Hixie: one related confusion. If you see a mis-nested close tag in foreign content, right now the spec has you just pop all the way back until that tag makes sense. Which can ahve you popping through other insertion modes where the tag would be ignored. Another way to handle that would be any time you see a mis-nested close tag, to break out of FC immediately and re-process.
# [03:42] * Quits: aho (~nya@fuld-4d00d23e.pool.mediaWays.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [03:42] <Hixie> do you have an example of popping through other inserting modes?
# [03:43] <eseidel> <body><svg></html></svg> would be one example I think.
# [03:43] <eseidel> I need to find an example where we ignore close tags, setc.
# [03:43] <Hixie> you don't pop through other insertion modes where it would be ignored in that example do you?
# [03:44] <Hixie> i mean, <body></html> won't ignore anything
# [03:44] <Hixie> not sure what you mean
# [03:44] <eseidel> <body><svg><col>Foo</svg>
# [03:44] <eseidel> normally the "col" would be ignored, but since it's in the SVG, it causes it to break out of the SVG.
# [03:44] * eseidel looks for a better example
# [03:45] <Hixie> no, that results in a <col> element in the SVG namespace
# [03:45] <eseidel> Hixie: ah, <body><svg></foo><circle></svg>
# [03:46] <eseidel> currently that would crash, if I remember the spec correctly (you'd walk off the bottom lookcing for <foo>
# [03:46] <Hixie> i just fixed that one
# [03:46] <eseidel> ok
# [03:46] <eseidel> but </foo> woudl be ignored in body, so seems we shoudl ignore in in svg
# [03:46] <Hixie> (not sure if i fixed it right)
# [03:46] <Hixie> (let's see)
# [03:46] <eseidel> Hixie: I'll implement whatever you wrote tomorrow, and then I can pick on you more then :)
# [03:46] <eseidel> I'll leave you to work now
# [03:46] <Hixie> k
# [03:46] <Hixie> later
# [03:49] <Hixie> (ok, looks like the </foo> in the example above just gets ignored now)
# [03:50] * Joins: aho (~nya@fuld-4d00d1b8.pool.mediaWays.net)
# [03:51] <eseidel> (that's our current behavior too)
# [03:51] <Hixie> (but in the case like <body><svg><g><foreignContent><b></g>, the </g> is not ignored, because the in body mode closes it)
# [03:52] <Hixie> (not sure that this is completely coherent, but we'll have to try various examples and see if they all make sense now)
# [03:52] <eseidel> k
# [03:52] <eseidel> would like to find some way for hsivonen and I to better share test cases so we can implement these same things here
# [03:52] <eseidel> our code is wildly different :)
# [03:52] <eseidel> which is a good thing, I think
# [03:53] <Hixie> yes
# [03:55] <eseidel> <b id="1"><p><script>document.getElementById("1").id = "2"</script></p>TEXT</b> may turn into a spec bug... It's nice (mentally) to re-use the token, but "expensive" from an implementation perspective
# [03:56] * MikeSmithXX is now known as MikeSmith
# [03:56] <Hixie> eseidel: as opposed to what?
# [03:56] <Hixie> the spec used to clone the actual elements, but hsivonen asked me to use the token instead so he didn't need to keep a hold of the actual DOM since he's doing it off-thread
# [03:57] <eseidel> ha.
# [03:57] <eseidel> I think mozilla is crazy to do the parser off-thread. :)
# [03:57] <Hixie> no disagreement here, but they get a minor advantage since they took the plunge and implemented it first :-)
# [03:57] <eseidel> old WK clones the element, new one does too. I haven't checke IE
# [03:58] <Hixie> IE doesn't clone
# [03:58] <Hixie> it uses the same element
# [03:58] <Hixie> you get non-tree DOMs
# [03:58] <Hixie> it's quite special
# [03:58] <eseidel> oh goodie :)
# [03:58] <Hixie> at least old IEs did
# [03:58] <Hixie> dunno what the recent ones do
# [03:58] <roc> what's crazy about doing the parser off-thread?
# [03:58] <eseidel> Hixie: I mean, we can store off the tokens (or the attributes from the tokens). its just more mallocs we'd probably like to avoid
# [03:59] <eseidel> I'm not sure you want to pay all the sychronization cost.
# [03:59] <eseidel> I mean, I liek the idea of using more threads in the engine, given the way hardware is going
# [03:59] <eseidel> but doing all the dom access, which has to pretend to be single theaded, seems ouchy
# [03:59] <Hixie> eseidel: why is it any more mallocs?
# [03:59] <roc> the synchronization costs are low
# [03:59] <Hixie> eseidel: the way they implemented it they have minimal synchronisation
# [04:00] <roc> the DOM is not accessed directly from the parser thread
# [04:00] <eseidel> Hixie: cause we have to copy the attributes array in case you change it in script
# [04:00] <Hixie> (it's pretty cleverly done actually)
# [04:00] <Hixie> eseidel: oh i see
# [04:00] <roc> the parser generates a list of "tree operations" which are posted to the main thread
# [04:00] <eseidel> i see.
# [04:00] <Hixie> eseidel: can't you do a copy-on-write or something? i guess that'd be a performance hit too.
# [04:00] <eseidel> Hixie: I'm not sure this will end up being a big deal. but for now we're not going to implement that quirk.
# [04:01] <eseidel> Hixie: I have a test for it and a big FIXME so we won't forget :)
# [04:01] <Hixie> cool
# [04:01] <eseidel> hsivonen still owes me a response to my "<a>1<button>2</a>3</button>" test case
# [04:01] <eseidel> I think minefield builds the wrong tree for that
# [04:02] <eseidel> somehow </a> is breaking out of the <button> in minefield, which makes no sense to me
# [04:03] <Hixie> there's some weird rules around </a> iirc
# [04:04] <Hixie> oh that's for the <a><button><a> case, nevermind
# [04:04] <Hixie> not <a><button</a>
# [04:05] <eseidel> I filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=578568
# [04:05] <Hixie> ok i'm done for the day, will continue with these fixes tomorrow
# [04:10] * Quits: eseidel (~eseidel@c-76-102-48-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: eseidel)
# [04:15] <boblet> hixie: for links.html#examples-1 you should combine George Washington’s itemprop="fn" and itemprop="n" to itemprop="fn n"
# [04:15] * Quits: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison) (Quit: groceries)
# [04:17] <boblet> also having Jack Bauer’s given-/family-names in meta seems odd since they’re already in content
# [04:23] * Joins: cristianl (~cristianl@201-15-156-36.paemt704.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br)
# [04:43] <MikeSmith> http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/
# [04:44] <MikeSmith> "when misinformed people, particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they rarely changed their minds."
# [04:44] <MikeSmith> "In fact, they often became even more strongly set in their beliefs."
# [04:45] <othermaciej> I totally disagree with that story
# [04:45] <othermaciej> cause I heard somewhere that people can change their minds
# [04:46] <boblet> heh
# [04:47] <MikeSmith> " the ones who were the most confident they were right were by and large the ones who knew the least about the topic"
# [04:47] <MikeSmith> “It implies not only that most people will resist correcting their factual beliefs,” he wrote, “but also that the very people who most need to correct them will be least likely to do so.”
# [04:48] <boblet> MikeSmith: so that explains … America then, huh
# [04:48] * boblet ducks
# [04:49] * Quits: justicefries (~gerred@c-98-245-71-126.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Quit: justicefries)
# [04:53] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-76c8e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [04:53] * Quits: bobchao (~cctw@112-105-96-241.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
# [04:55] * Joins: TabAtkins__ (~chatzilla@76-253-3-102.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
# [04:56] <MikeSmith> boblet: explains quite a lot of things
# [04:57] <boblet> MikeSmith: sadly, yes
# [05:00] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
# [05:00] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-45-110.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
# [05:02] * Joins: justicefries (~gerred@c-98-245-71-126.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
# [05:10] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@133.27.228.131)
# [05:35] <variable> anyone here want a hope ticket for saterday/sunday for a cheaper price? I found out that I likely won't be able to stay the entire time ?
# [05:35] <variable> woops
# [05:35] <variable> wrong channel
# [05:35] * Parts: variable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable) ("Trojan horse ran out of hay")
# [05:35] * Joins: variable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable)
# [05:43] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
# [05:45] * Quits: cristianl (~cristianl@201-15-156-36.paemt704.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [05:46] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108)
# [05:54] * Joins: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-230.uwaterloo.ca)
# [05:55] * Parts: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-230.uwaterloo.ca)
# [05:55] <Hixie> boblet: please file bugs for those (use the box at the bottom to do it automatically into the right component)
# [06:20] <variable> Hixie, do you remember of any statments by you that about about direct client side includes?
# [06:23] * Joins: bobchao (~cctw@DHCP-21139.iis.sinica.edu.tw)
# [06:34] * Joins: eseidel (~eseidel@c-76-102-116-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [06:35] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@adsl-71-147-38-111.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.4/20100622203044])
# [06:45] * Quits: eseidel (~eseidel@c-76-102-116-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: eseidel)
# [06:46] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
# [06:46] * Joins: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@133.27.228.172)
# [06:47] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.65) (Quit: othermaciej)
# [06:56] * Quits: seventh (galofort@208.98.1.237) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [06:58] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [07:00] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [07:01] * paul_irish is now known as Breadsticks
# [07:02] * Quits: riven (~riven@53518387.cable.casema.nl) (Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.)
# [07:03] * Joins: homata_ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [07:04] * Breadsticks is now known as paul_irish
# [07:04] * Joins: homata__ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [07:06] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [07:07] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@203-140-90-184.eonet.ne.jp)
# [07:07] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [07:07] * Quits: homata_ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [07:16] * Quits: michaeln (~michaeln@nat/google/x-xzdicwxecywoibak) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [07:19] * Joins: eseidel (~eseidel@c-76-102-116-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [07:38] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@133.27.228.131) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
# [07:39] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@133.27.228.131)
# [07:41] * Quits: mike][inq (~mike@2001:858:5:303:224:81ff:fe12:b5c4) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [07:43] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [07:43] * Quits: homata__ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [07:45] * Joins: mike][inq (~mike@2001:858:5:303:224:81ff:fe12:b5c4)
# [07:48] * Quits: eseidel (~eseidel@c-76-102-116-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: eseidel)
# [07:49] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@133.27.228.131) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
# [07:50] * Joins: eseidel (~eseidel@c-76-102-116-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [07:52] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [07:57] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@133.27.228.178)
# [07:59] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [07:59] * Quits: yutak (~yutak@nat/google/x-ifgvqekigvkzzqiu) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
# [07:59] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [08:00] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
# [08:16] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [08:16] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [08:20] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
# [08:22] * Quits: eseidel (~eseidel@c-76-102-116-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: eseidel)
# [08:24] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
# [08:27] * Joins: yutak (~yutak@nat/google/x-iacyobzqeojrbipx)
# [08:31] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@c-d798e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
# [08:34] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [08:37] * Quits: aho (~nya@fuld-4d00d1b8.pool.mediaWays.net) (Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION)
# [08:39] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
# [08:41] * Joins: homata_ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [08:43] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [08:45] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
# [08:47] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:2900:226:8ff:fe07:40c6) (Quit: kennyluck)
# [08:48] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: zzzzz)
# [08:50] <annevk> we won't get to Last Call this year in the HTML WG?
# [08:50] <annevk> geez
# [08:51] <annevk> was'nt
# [08:51] <boblet> Hixie: will do
# [08:51] <annevk> wasn't Paul Cotton specifically assigned to help us get through this quicker or something?
# [08:51] <annevk> oh well
# [08:51] <Hixie> annevk: why wouldn't we get to LC this year?
# [08:52] <Hixie> (if we don't get to LC this year, we surely can't make REC this quarter as per our charter!)
# [08:52] <Hixie> i guess we can still make CR by 2012 like i predicted though
# [08:54] <zcorpan_> Hixie: you mean WHATWG CR?
# [08:54] <Hixie> i meant htmlwg CR
# [08:54] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-76c8e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
# [08:54] <Slaanesh> It seems the longer the W3C process is dragged out, the more likely any given feature will become a victim of cross-browser implementations
# [08:55] <Hixie> yup
# [08:55] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl)
# [08:57] <zcorpan_> Slaanesh: i don't think the w3c process really affect browser implementations one way or the other
# [08:59] <annevk> Hixie, that's what Sam said in his reply to Jonas
# [08:59] <Hixie> ah
# [08:59] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [08:59] <annevk> "unless we split the draft" ....
# [09:02] <mhausenblas> MikeSmith around? re "Microdata/Microformat/RDF community should collaboratively write a document explaining about machine-readibility using non-RDF terms"
# [09:02] * Joins: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55)
# [09:03] <mhausenblas> it totally agree and would happily contribute to such an effort, MikeSmith
# [09:04] <MikeSmith> mhausenblas: cool
# [09:04] <MikeSmith> I'm happy to let anybody drive it
# [09:04] <mhausenblas> maybe you want to take a quick look at http://linkeddata.deri.ie/node/58
# [09:04] <mhausenblas> MikeSmith, I know who should not drive it ... /me :D
# [09:05] <mhausenblas> link above was one of my earlier attempts (yes, restricted to RDF, I know, I know)
# [09:05] <mhausenblas> but you get the idea?
# [09:05] * MikeSmith takes a look at the link
# [09:05] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [09:05] <mhausenblas> tx
# [09:05] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
# [09:05] <MikeSmith> mhausenblas: well, we now know at least two people who should not drive it :)
# [09:05] <mhausenblas> hehe
# [09:06] <mhausenblas> seriously, I guess someone rather neutral would be ideal
# [09:06] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [09:06] <mhausenblas> just fire up an etherpad and spread the word (here?)
# [09:08] * Quits: homata_ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [09:10] * Joins: eseidel (~eseidel@c-76-102-116-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [09:10] <Slaanesh> zcorpan_: Not the current one, perhaps. But if w3c wants to be involved in UA conformance later, they risk being too late
# [09:11] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-76c8e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [09:11] <annevk> fwiw, "the w3c" includes UAs
# [09:12] <Slaanesh> "The subset of w3c left after removing the intersection with whatwg" maybe?
# [09:12] <annevk> something like that, yeah
# [09:13] <Slaanesh> I wonder, if the suggestion to drop all author conformance had passed, where would be we now? CR?
# [09:13] <annevk> I was just saying it since some people seem to have the impression the W3C is some kind of standalone entity, while it's mostly just a collection of lots of companies
# [09:14] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
# [09:14] <Hixie> Slaanesh: dropping all authoring conformance criteria would have made very little difference so far
# [09:14] <Hixie> Slaanesh: most of the issues have been over editorial text
# [09:15] <Slaanesh> But isn't much of the text about author conformance?
# [09:15] <Hixie> no
# [09:15] <Hixie> most of it is implementation rules
# [09:15] <Hixie> (i.e. UA conformance criteria)
# [09:16] <Slaanesh> Selective memory on my part, I guess
# [09:16] <Slaanesh> ... why do the church bells ring at 09:10 every day in Zurich?
# [09:17] * Quits: TabAtkins__ (~chatzilla@76-253-3-102.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [09:17] <Hixie> Slaanesh: calling the faithful to church
# [09:18] <Hixie> (at a guess based on other churches in switzerland)
# [09:19] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@133.27.228.182)
# [09:19] <MikeSmith> mhausenblas: not sure what would be the best way to jump start it.. comes back to the usual problem of needing somebody who has the time and motivation to make it happen
# [09:20] * Joins: daedb_ (~daed@78-72-108-100-no178.tbcn.telia.com)
# [09:20] * Quits: daedb (~daed@78-72-108-100-no178.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [09:20] <Slaanesh> Hixie: I thought all the faithful were at work already ;)
# [09:20] <mhausenblas> MikeSmith, I'm happy to *take* time for it (and I certainly have the motivation) ... BUT
# [09:21] <mhausenblas> I also know that if I propose it the typical reaction here and in some other place would be a more or less friendly fck off
# [09:21] <MikeSmith> Slaanesh: it seems like churches should be trying to call the faithless, anyway
# [09:22] <mhausenblas> so, you see my problem, MikeSmith? ;)
# [09:22] <MikeSmith> mhausenblas: random idea: maybe a Wikipedia article
# [09:22] <mhausenblas> hm
# [09:22] <MikeSmith> I realize that the Wikipedia editor community is as dysfunctional or worse than any
# [09:23] * mhausenblas has rather bad experiences with this ... and also seems a bit like misusing Wikipedia
# [09:23] <mhausenblas> well, I think it's clearly against their policy (re using it as a discussion forum)
# [09:23] <Hixie> wikipedia book? :-)
# [09:23] <mhausenblas> hehe
# [09:23] <mhausenblas> whatz your hunch Hixie?
# [09:23] <Hixie> no idea what the topic is :-)
# [09:23] <mhausenblas> I mean, assuming you'd be interested ;)
# [09:24] <mhausenblas> ah
# [09:24] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
# [09:24] <mhausenblas> re "Microdata/Microformat/RDF community should collaboratively write a document explaining about machine-readibility using non-RDF terms"
# [09:24] <jgraham> eseidel: If you have testcases, please check them in to the html5lib repository
# [09:24] <mhausenblas> MikeSmith and I are discussing how to kick this off
# [09:24] <jgraham> eseidel: I can give you commit access if you need it
# [09:24] <Slaanesh> A vcs repository?
# [09:25] <eseidel> jgraham: I did not know there was a repository. b ut yes, we have lots of tests
# [09:25] <jgraham> eseidel: Also, hsivonen already knows about the <button> weirdness I think. The conclusion is that the spec is probably broken
# [09:25] <eseidel> jgraham: see http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/html5lib/resources/
# [09:26] <eseidel> jgraham: yeah, I got CC'd on the right bugs
# [09:26] <Hixie> mhausenblas: what does that mean?
# [09:26] <eseidel> after the fact
# [09:26] <mhausenblas> (MikeSmith I think we should also ask mamund on board - he's doing great stuff at http://amundsen.com/hypermedia/
# [09:26] <jgraham> eseidel: http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/checkout
# [09:26] <mhausenblas> Hixie, an attempt to overcome the silly low-level, syntax-driven fights
# [09:26] <mhausenblas> for a greater, Webish data idea
# [09:27] <eseidel> jgraham: crazy
# [09:27] <Hixie> ah well i'm not your man
# [09:27] <Hixie> i think webish data is a lost cause
# [09:27] <mhausenblas> fair enough
# [09:27] <Hixie> at least machine-readable data
# [09:27] <mhausenblas> interesting. care to explain why?
# [09:27] <Hixie> natural language interpretation is where the real solutions are going to lie
# [09:27] <mhausenblas> ah, right, I see
# [09:27] <eseidel> jgraham: I'll talk with abarth about it, and figure out how we'll go about syncing up
# [09:27] <Hixie> we'll never get a critical mass of authors writing data in common vocabularies using any of the syntaxes discussed, microformats, microdata, rdf*, whatever
# [09:28] <Hixie> i mean, we have enough trouble getting them to use even basic HTML semantics
# [09:28] <mhausenblas> ok, yeah, these are the two fundamental directions I sense as well
# [09:28] <mhausenblas> I agree that it's hard to achieve it, yes
# [09:28] <jgraham> eseidel: OK. I can obviously sync up the tests that are already there if you like
# [09:28] * Joins: cedricv (~cedric@202.152.243.156)
# [09:28] <mhausenblas> true (re "getting them to use even basic HTML semantics")
# [09:28] <Hixie> i think it would require such a fundamental change in the way people are educated throughout the planet that it is for all intents and purposes impossible
# [09:28] * Quits: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: nimbupani)
# [09:28] <jgraham> eseidel: (although I guess there might be licensing issues?)
# [09:29] <Hixie> i mean, i seriously think that getting this done would require massive investment in education in every computer-literate country
# [09:29] <mhausenblas> hehe Hixie, this is the only (main) difference where I seriously disagree with you ;)
# [09:29] <eseidel> jgraham: abarth and I have written all the tests. as far as I'm concerned, they're public domain
# [09:29] <Hixie> we're talking trillions of dollars, and serious political upheaval
# [09:29] <eseidel> jgraham: I'm 100% certain abarth feels the same
# [09:29] <mhausenblas> but it's happening (see data.gov.uk and data.gov, just to mention a few)
# [09:30] <eseidel> jgraham: note, we don't pass quite all of them yet: http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/html5lib/runner-expected-html5.txt
# [09:30] <Hixie> mhausenblas: oh individual places will provide data in structured form, sure
# [09:30] <mhausenblas> and I'm not talking so much about the individuals producing structured data
# [09:30] <mhausenblas> hehe
# [09:30] <jgraham> eseidel: Sure :) It might be better for you to add them yourselves to the html5lib repository for the avoidance of doubt though
# [09:30] <mhausenblas> my reasoning is very simple:
# [09:30] <eseidel> jgraham: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AlC4tS7Ao1fIdEo0SFdLaVpiclBHMVNQcHlTenV5TEE&hl=en is our status
# [09:30] <Hixie> mhausenblas: but they will be rare enough that it's easier to write per-site hard-coded interpreters, and thus it's easier to use dedicated database formats for each one, than to try to embed the data in HTML each time
# [09:30] <jgraham> eseidel: Also, I added some more tests to the html5lib repo recently
# [09:31] <jgraham> So you might want to pull
# [09:31] <Hixie> mhausenblas: trying to crawl the data out of the HTML only makes sense if the vast majority of the web is using this, which is what i don't think will happen
# [09:31] <eseidel> jgraham: good! we would love to pass them!
# [09:31] <mhausenblas> if you (== company, gov agency, whatever) already have HTML out there, why not putting a bit more structure into it (+links)
# [09:31] <mhausenblas> right
# [09:31] <Hixie> mhausenblas: if you (== company, gov agency, whatever) already have data, why not just put it out there in its native form? (e.g. a SQL database)
# [09:31] <mhausenblas> true
# [09:31] <Hixie> that'd be a bazillion times easier to deal with in practice
# [09:32] <Hixie> it's not like these sites are all using the same useful vocabularies
# [09:32] <mhausenblas> but then you're putting it on the Web, not in the Web
# [09:32] <Hixie> sure but who cares
# [09:32] <mhausenblas> well, it's not utilising the most important feature of the Web
# [09:32] <mhausenblas> the links
# [09:32] <mhausenblas> :D
# [09:32] <mhausenblas> (and for the record: I do care ;)
# [09:32] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (~GarethAda@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams) (Quit: GarethAdams|Home)
# [09:32] <Hixie> what matters is what the end user benefit is, not whether we're doing things theoretically correctly or in architecturally correct ways
# [09:32] <mhausenblas> exactly
# [09:33] <mhausenblas> Hixie, whatz your take on OData?
# [09:33] <Hixie> better to have a bunch of dedicated sql queries than to try to reuse HTML because it's "in the web not on the web"
# [09:33] <Hixie> OData?
# [09:33] <Hixie> whatz?
# [09:33] <mhausenblas> come on ...
# [09:33] <mhausenblas> you do know MS OData? based on Atom?
# [09:34] <jgraham> eseidel: Just send me the google account email addresses that you and abarth use and I will add you to the committers list
# [09:34] <mhausenblas> s/whatz/what's
# [09:34] <Hixie> one quick google search later, and i have a vague idea
# [09:34] <mhausenblas> right
# [09:34] <Hixie> no opinion, not sure what the point is though
# [09:34] <Hixie> what's wrong with mysql dumps?
# [09:34] <mhausenblas> nothing wrong
# [09:34] <mhausenblas> just requires a lot of manual work to intregrate
# [09:34] <Hixie> i mean, atom is hardly the best format for transferring a terabyte of climate data
# [09:34] * Quits: justicefries (~gerred@c-98-245-71-126.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Quit: justicefries)
# [09:34] <mhausenblas> good point
# [09:34] <Hixie> this is the argument i have a problem with
# [09:34] <mhausenblas> neither is RDF ;)
# [09:35] <Hixie> sql "just requires a lot of manual work to intregrate"
# [09:35] <Hixie> so does everythinge lse
# [09:35] <mhausenblas> no
# [09:35] <Hixie> because nobody is using the same vocabulary as everyone else
# [09:35] <mhausenblas> Webish formats don't
# [09:35] <Hixie> you still have to hardcode everything
# [09:35] <Hixie> well anyway
# [09:35] <Hixie> i have no problem with people trying to solve this problem
# [09:35] * Joins: justicefries (~gerred@c-98-245-71-126.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
# [09:35] <Hixie> i just don't think it's worth my time :-)
# [09:35] <mhausenblas> hehe, fair enough
# [09:35] <Hixie> better to spend the time making computers be able to do this via natural language processing, imho
# [09:35] <mhausenblas> just an aside: even Google is going into this business
# [09:36] <mhausenblas> (see Fusion Tables)
# [09:36] <Hixie> yes, i'm friends with the program manager of the fusion tables team
# [09:36] <mhausenblas> interesting
# [09:36] <mhausenblas> and?
# [09:36] <Hixie> and nothing :-)
# [09:36] * mhausenblas was waiting for some dirty background stories
# [09:36] <Hixie> google does many things
# [09:36] <mhausenblas> indeed
# [09:37] <mhausenblas> anyway, thanks for your time Hixie - hope to proof you wrong in some 5-10y :D
# [09:37] <Hixie> good luck :-)
# [09:37] <mhausenblas> hehe, thanks, will need it
# [09:38] <mhausenblas> and, MikeSmith if you find someone to drive this, plz lemme know
# [09:38] <MikeSmith> will do
# [09:38] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
# [09:38] <mhausenblas> tx!
# [09:38] <MikeSmith> maybe kennyluck will have some ideas
# [09:38] <kennyluck> What was the discussion?
# [09:39] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@h-112-7.A163.corp.bahnhof.se)
# [09:40] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: see the logs
# [09:40] * Quits: cedricv (~cedric@202.152.243.156)
# [09:40] * kennyluck is reading.
# [09:41] * kennyluck has the feeling that he spends too much time in the IRC world. :)
# [09:43] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@133.27.228.182) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [09:44] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@133.27.228.182)
# [09:45] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-140-7.catv.broadband.hu)
# [09:49] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-140-7.catv.broadband.hu) (Client Quit)
# [09:49] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-140-7.catv.broadband.hu)
# [09:52] * Joins: TabAtkins__ (~chatzilla@76-253-3-102.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
# [09:55] * Quits: TabAtkins__ (~chatzilla@76-253-3-102.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Client Quit)
# [09:58] * Quits: peol (~andree@unaffiliated/peol) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [10:03] * Joins: slartsa (~Lari@adsl-215-234-204.kymp.net)
# [10:03] * Joins: peol (~andree@91.213.250.10)
# [10:04] * peol is now known as Guest19409
# [10:04] * Quits: Guest19409 (~andree@91.213.250.10) (Changing host)
# [10:04] * Joins: Guest19409 (~andree@unaffiliated/peol)
# [10:04] * Guest19409 is now known as peol
# [10:05] <kennyluck> I have to say I am super surprised by the fact that Hixie is not that into the "machine-readible" idea.
# [10:05] <kennyluck> Then what is Microdata for, I wonder.
# [10:05] <kennyluck> Anyway, I go for a fundamental change to computer-science education.
# [10:05] <Hixie> lots of people disagree with me
# [10:05] <Hixie> microdata is for them, in case i'm wrong
# [10:06] <kennyluck> A class on HTML should be required for every collegue student. :)
# [10:06] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [10:06] <kennyluck> Hmm... who are they? Hixie? In this channel?
# [10:06] <Hixie> kennyluck: mhausenblas, for one
# [10:07] <Hixie> tantek is another
# [10:07] <Hixie> all the people who sent in use cases for microdata
# [10:07] <Hixie> microdata is one of the areas of the spec for which i was the most explicit in terms of writing the use cases i was aiming for
# [10:07] <Hixie> (mostly because it was so hard to get anyone to give me actual use cases)
# [10:08] <kennyluck> Ah ha.
# [10:08] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [10:08] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
# [10:09] <Hixie> see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0207.html
# [10:09] <kennyluck> I am just very interested in the origin of Microdata, I guess.
# [10:10] <Hixie> that e-mail is the index to the e-mails that are the origin of microdata
# [10:10] <kennyluck> Thank you, Hixie.
# [10:10] <Hixie> it's interesting to note that most of the use cases for which microdata is designed are not the use cases that people are always trying to say RDF and co will save the world for
# [10:11] <Hixie> but that's another story
# [10:11] <kennyluck> I guess #swig people should have joined the discussion at the beginning with #whatwg, and we might have had some consesus or something.
# [10:11] <kennyluck> Sure
# [10:11] <Hixie> i invited -- begged for, even -- feedback for like a year on the whatwg list
# [10:11] <Hixie> before doing anything
# [10:12] <Hixie> it was like pulling teeth
# [10:12] <Hixie> i've never had so much trouble getting people to tell me what they wanted
# [10:12] <kennyluck> OK. I feel sorry, really.
# [10:12] <Hixie> it was like everyone thought it was obvious that RDF would solve the world's problems and bring world peace, but nobody could articulate a single concrete use case
# [10:12] <Hixie> anyway
# [10:13] <kennyluck> I noticed that #swig consists of almost academics, so.
# [10:13] <kennyluck> Well, anyway.
# [10:15] <kennyluck> FYI, the RDB2RDF effort aligned with your SQL dump idea, I think, Hixie.
# [10:15] <kennyluck> We need a standardized format for dumping, anyway.
# [10:15] <Hixie> why?
# [10:16] <kennyluck> Although ofcourse RDF might be a poor choice.
# [10:16] <kennyluck> standardized format for dumping?
# [10:16] <Hixie> yeah
# [10:16] <kennyluck> Well, this is what standardization is for, isn't it?
# [10:16] <Hixie> what's the use case for which you need a standardised format for dumping... what? any relational database?
# [10:17] <kennyluck> Yeah.
# [10:17] <Hixie> why are you going to need the same format for 2GB of climate data and 1PB of mars imagery and 100MB of number station logs?
# [10:18] <kennyluck> Hmm.. to save time for processing?
# [10:18] <kennyluck> Becuase we really like "mashups" to happen.
# [10:18] <Hixie> you think the format part of this is going to be where the complexity lies?
# [10:18] <kennyluck> In a large scale, so saving processing time is a good thing to do.
# [10:18] <Hixie> this is what gets me about the whole semantic web
# [10:19] <Hixie> it's solving one problem -- the syntax the data should be in -- despite that being the single simplest part of the entire problem
# [10:19] <Hixie> it's trivial to write a custom parser for each format you want to mash up
# [10:19] <Hixie> the hard part is the UI and the data processing once you've parsed the data
# [10:19] <kennyluck> But since you are not likely to give the parser to other people, so...
# [10:19] <Hixie> who cares what the format is -- that's at most an hour or two to parse the incoming data, and in all likelihood less since most data sources will already have libraries to parse their data formats
# [10:20] <Hixie> that is, to write the parser to parse
# [10:20] <kennyluck> This is arguable, I am not very sure.
# [10:21] <Hixie> it's like looking at the problem of how to solve world hunger, and doing it by standardising the seat belts in the trucks that will be used to carry the food
# [10:21] <Hixie> and then saying that the problem is not essentially solved
# [10:21] <Hixie> s/not/now/
# [10:21] <kennyluck> The Google Official Blog has an article explaining "machine-readability"
# [10:21] <kennyluck> It's the data provider who understands the data well.
# [10:21] <Hixie> yeah, not everyone at google agrees with me either :-)
# [10:22] <kennyluck> So the data provider ought to convert the data to something that everyone can parse easiliy.
# [10:22] <Hixie> sure, but that doesn't have to be anything standard
# [10:22] <Hixie> they can just provide the data in a MySQL IASM data table for all i care
# [10:22] <Hixie> then all you have to do is install MySQL and use that locally
# [10:22] <Hixie> 30 minutes of work assuming MySQL is already installed
# [10:23] <Hixie> anyway
# [10:23] <kennyluck> Maybe.
# [10:23] <kennyluck> Anyway, thanks for your links.
# [10:23] * Joins: cedricv (~cedric@202.152.243.156)
# [10:23] <Hixie> my point is just that that seems like such a trivial part of the problem space that i don't understand why it's the main thing everyone is always talking about
# [10:25] <kennyluck> This is quite fundamental. Even with NLP, you still need a regular data structure to store your processed data.
# [10:25] <kennyluck> The Semantic Web effort basiclly asks you to provide your NLP result, I guess.
# [10:25] <Hixie> yes, but what is useful for one NLP system isn't going to be useful for another
# [10:26] <Hixie> to put it in an obvious form: RDF isn't the ideal format for bitmaps, for example
# [10:26] <kennyluck> Google's NLP system is certainly useful for everyone. :)
# [10:26] <Hixie> so if your NLP system outputs a bitmap, then RDF isn't going to help
# [10:26] <Hixie> if your NLP system happens to output a quad graph, then sure, it might help
# [10:26] <Hixie> if it outputs a tree, then JSON might be better
# [10:26] <kennyluck> Hixie, this is not likely to be the truth. (ref. NLP system outputs bitmaps)
# [10:27] <Hixie> it's just an extreme example
# [10:27] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
# [10:27] <Hixie> but it's not that unlikely, consider e.g. google image search
# [10:27] <Hixie> or google goggles, whose input is a bitmap
# [10:27] <kennyluck> Hmm...
# [10:28] <Hixie> or even moving video
# [10:28] <kennyluck> We are talking about outputs.
# [10:28] <Hixie> or youtube's autotranscription -- input is audio, output is timed track data
# [10:28] <Hixie> neither side of which is optimally represented by RDF
# [10:29] <Hixie> different problems have different ideal formats
# [10:29] <kennyluck> Sure. But timed track data could be serialized into RDF.
# [10:29] <Hixie> sure
# [10:29] <Hixie> so could a bitmap
# [10:29] <kennyluck> Ofcourse, audios can not.
# [10:29] <Hixie> but it's not the optimal form
# [10:29] <kennyluck> Come on.
# [10:29] <Hixie> and why would you use a suboptimal form?
# [10:29] <kennyluck> Why do you use HTML when docx is better?
# [10:30] <Hixie> i disagree with the premise of the question
# [10:30] <kennyluck> Sorry.
# [10:30] <Hixie> (a) that one should always use HTML, and (b) that DOCX is always better
# [10:30] <Hixie> when you're writing a document in a word processor, HTML is not the ideal format, and using it would imho be a bad idea
# [10:30] <kennyluck> I mean, this is what standardization is, isn't it?
# [10:30] <kennyluck> Sure.
# [10:30] <Hixie> what is what standardization is?
# [10:31] <kennyluck> But Semantic Web is about asking people to build mashups.
# [10:31] <kennyluck> Like HTML is about asking everyone in the world to view it.
# [10:32] <kennyluck> If you don't want people to view it, you don't output HTML. If you don't want people to do mashup based on your data, you don't output RDF.
# [10:32] <Hixie> I don't think RDF is useful for creating mashups personally
# [10:32] <Hixie> and i don't know what "HTML is about asking everyone in the world to view it" means
# [10:32] <kennyluck> Anyway, I welcome JSON as well.
# [10:33] <Hixie> there's nothing special or useful about JSON compared to RDF
# [10:33] <Hixie> they're both just formats, which may or may not be useful in any given scenario
# [10:33] <Hixie> the difference is that JSON advocates don't sell JSON as the solution to humanity's woes
# [10:33] <kennyluck> JSON is better than HTML for building mashups.
# [10:33] <Hixie> i have no idea what that means
# [10:34] <Hixie> that's like saying pears are better than shoes for drawing maps
# [10:35] <Smylers2> Boots are even better if it's a map of Italy you're drawing — you could lay it flat and trace round it.
# [10:36] <kennyluck> I just want to mention we benefit a lot from the fact that HTML is so universal.
# [10:36] <Hixie> Smylers2: and pears are good if you're drawing a map of hungary
# [10:36] <Hixie> Smylers2: since you can eat pears
# [10:37] <Hixie> kennyluck: sure, but HTML is a vocabulary, not a data model
# [10:37] <kennyluck> It's of course not an optimal format for lots of things.
# [10:37] <Hixie> kennyluck: HTML is to XML what Foaf is to RDF
# [10:37] <kennyluck> But I still write my presentation in HTML.
# [10:37] <Hixie> kennyluck: Foaf has clear use cases
# [10:37] <Hixie> kennyluck: just like RDF has clear use cases
# [10:37] <Hixie> er
# [10:37] <Hixie> kennyluck: just like HTML has clear use cases
# [10:38] <Hixie> RDF and XML, however, are metaformats
# [10:38] <Hixie> and alone are just tools
# [10:38] <Hixie> like JSON
# [10:38] <Hixie> or MySQL IASM
# [10:39] <Hixie> advocating that everyone should use Foaf for the specific use cases that Foaf addresses makes a lot more sense than advocating that everyone should use RDF
# [10:39] <kennyluck> Alright.
# [10:40] <kennyluck> I always prefer this approach, actullay.
# [10:40] <kennyluck> FOAF and then RDF.
# [10:40] <Hixie> not FOAF and then RDF
# [10:40] <Hixie> just FOAF
# [10:40] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [10:40] <Hixie> that FOAF uses RDF is an implementation detail
# [10:40] <Hixie> you can't generalise from "use XHTML" to "use XML"
# [10:40] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
# [10:41] <Hixie> you can't generalise from "use FOAF" to "use RDF"
# [10:41] <kennyluck> Probably.
# [10:41] <kennyluck> Microdata also allows mixing namespaces. So it indeed meets these use cases.
# [10:42] <Hixie> microdata is just another RDF serialisation
# [10:42] <Hixie> (amongst other things)
# [10:42] * Joins: Phae (~Phae@gatekeeper.macmillan.co.uk)
# [10:43] <kennyluck> Anyway, use cases are important, that I agree with you.
# [10:46] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: Leaving)
# [10:48] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@109.96.239.57)
# [10:49] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
# [10:53] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
# [10:55] * Quits: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving)
# [10:57] * Joins: akamike (~akamike@94-193-106-14.zone7.bethere.co.uk)
# [10:59] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-170-233-189.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [11:00] * Joins: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk)
# [11:04] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
# [11:06] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@124-170-233-189.dyn.iinet.net.au)
# [11:10] * Joins: kmq (~kmq@85.159.13.90)
# [11:17] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [11:24] * Joins: pauld (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2)
# [11:27] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
# [11:34] * Quits: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: roc)
# [11:38] * Quits: eseidel (~eseidel@c-76-102-116-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: eseidel)
# [11:54] * Joins: phrearch (~phrearch_@82-136-229-19.ip.telfort.nl)
# [11:54] <phrearch> morning
# [11:55] <phrearch> i wondered if there is some sort of an agreed standard how to do routing in jsonrpc websockets?
# [11:55] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@dslb-088-075-183-145.pools.arcor-ip.net)
# [11:56] <phrearch> i could add uri data like /path/to/handler, but i thought there may be better ways to do this
# [11:58] <annevk> jsonrpc websockets?
# [11:58] <annevk> websockets is not even an agreed upon standard :)
# [11:58] * Joins: oal (~oal@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net)
# [11:59] <phrearch> annevk: just thinking how to handle this. i like the django approach of handling urls. maybe i can use something simular for jsonrpc dispatching
# [12:00] <phrearch> like calling functions like /path/to/function, and let the jsonrpc handler dispatch to the right function
# [12:01] <Rik`> phrearch: http://substack.net/posts/85e1bd/DNode-Asynchronous-Remote-Method-Invocation-for-Node-js-and-the-Browser ?
# [12:03] <phrearch> Rik`: thanks, ill take a look how they do things
# [12:03] * Quits: ukai (~ukai@220.109.219.244) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [12:06] <phrearch> hm interesting stuff about RMI
# [12:07] <phrearch> i still need some way to call a function from the server on the client
# [12:13] <Rik`> isn't that what DNode provides ?
# [12:14] <phrearch> sure, but i'm writing a python/twisted app
# [12:15] <phrearch> i like the way they call remote functions in js
# [12:17] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
# [12:17] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
# [12:18] * Parts: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@133.27.228.178) ("I fall upon the thorns of life! I bleed!")
# [12:19] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@133.27.228.178)
# [12:21] * Joins: jorlow (~jorlow@nat/google/x-dhmeahvjritzuwhv)
# [12:25] <MikeSmith> annevk: thanks for the tweaks to the Media Queries spec
# [12:26] * Quits: justicefries (~gerred@c-98-245-71-126.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Quit: justicefries)
# [12:30] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
# [12:34] <MikeSmith> I've been reading up on node.js
# [12:34] <MikeSmith> seems like it's really turning into something very useful
# [12:34] <MikeSmith> with a big and growing community around it
# [12:35] <Rik`> MikeSmith: I find it very useful for my websockets demo :)
# [12:35] <MikeSmith> :)
# [12:35] <Rik`> (thanks to micheil btw)
# [12:36] * Joins: smaug_ (~chatzilla@84-231-123-162.elisa-mobile.fi)
# [12:36] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [12:44] <annevk> is ms2ger on IRC?
# [12:44] * annevk would like some rationale behind http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10164
# [12:49] <MikeSmith> I've never seen ms2ger on IRC
# [12:49] <MikeSmith> not under that name at least
# [12:49] <MikeSmith> the identity of ms2ger seems to be a mystery
# [12:50] <MikeSmith> maybe he/she is somebody who doesn't like realtime communication so much
# [12:52] * Quits: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@133.27.228.172) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [12:55] * Quits: smaug_ (~chatzilla@84-231-123-162.elisa-mobile.fi) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [12:59] * Quits: pauld (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [13:03] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@133.27.228.178) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
# [13:03] * Joins: smaug_ (~chatzilla@85-156-86-183.elisa-mobile.fi)
# [13:04] <annevk> hmm, does document.domain make sense in a document created through createDocument() ?
# [13:04] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@133.27.228.182) (Quit: kennyluck)
# [13:05] <annevk> there's a concept of cookie-free Document objects but maybe that should be generalized
# [13:05] <annevk> now document.cookie has that concept and document.domain specifically mentions XMLHttpRequest
# [13:05] <annevk> seems somewhat wrong
# [13:13] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
# [13:16] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@190.24.156.162)
# [13:16] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@190.24.156.162) (Changing host)
# [13:16] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
# [13:18] * Joins: ukai (~ukai@220.109.219.244)
# [13:36] <oal> How would I create a modern, simple, wysiwyg editor for a website? Is an iframe with designMode and execCommand out dated?
# [13:39] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@203-140-90-184.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [13:39] * Joins: foolip (~foolip@83.218.67.122)
# [13:40] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host86-184-39-181.range86-184.btcentralplus.com)
# [13:40] * Quits: Smylers2 (~smylers@host86-184-39-181.range86-184.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [13:41] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [13:41] * Quits: bobchao (~cctw@DHCP-21139.iis.sinica.edu.tw) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [13:45] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
# [13:54] * Quits: smaug_ (~chatzilla@85-156-86-183.elisa-mobile.fi) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [14:05] * Quits: bzed (~bzed@devel.recluse.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [14:05] * Joins: bzed (~bzed@devel.recluse.de)
# [14:06] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@EM111-188-24-16.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
# [14:11] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.103.106)
# [14:11] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.36.60)
# [14:13] * Joins: Smylers1 (~smylers@host86-180-212-115.range86-180.btcentralplus.com)
# [14:15] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host86-184-39-181.range86-184.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [14:23] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.36.60) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [14:23] <kennyluck> Oh, Ms2ger just logged off.
# [14:26] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@dslb-088-075-183-145.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
# [14:35] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.73.248)
# [14:38] * Joins: pauld (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2)
# [14:42] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host81-151-158-3.range81-151.btcentralplus.com)
# [14:44] * Quits: Smylers1 (~smylers@host86-180-212-115.range86-180.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [14:47] * Joins: davidb_ (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com)
# [14:52] <annevk> getComputedStyle defined: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#extensions-to-the-window-interface
# [14:53] <annevk> finally, took like 3 years or so
# [14:53] <annevk> where "3 years" is more like a week spread out over a long time with lots of learning in between, but still
# [14:54] <Philip`> "the style rules associated with d." - s/d/doc/ ?
# [14:55] <annevk> hmm, I should rename in all places at once
# [14:55] <annevk> thanks
# [14:56] <annevk> you're not in the acknowledgment list
# [14:56] <annevk> weird
# [14:56] <annevk> fixed
# [14:56] <Philip`> I don't remember commenting on it before
# [14:57] <annevk> yeah, it's not really too weird
# [14:57] <annevk> there has not been much review at all
# [14:58] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@dslb-088-075-183-145.pools.arcor-ip.net)
# [15:00] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163)
# [15:01] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [15:01] * Joins: bzed_ (~bzed@devel.recluse.de)
# [15:01] * bzed_ is now known as Guest90611
# [15:01] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163)
# [15:02] * Quits: bzed (~bzed@devel.recluse.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [15:04] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [15:06] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [15:08] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl)
# [15:23] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-65-71.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
# [15:25] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
# [15:25] * Joins: Matjas (5bb68fa0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.182.143.160)
# [15:27] * Ms2ger waves at annevk
# [15:28] <annevk> hey man
# [15:29] <annevk> I see you added a comment :)
# [15:30] <Ms2ger> Yeah, I'm just too lazy to file bugs through bugzilla
# [15:30] <annevk> fair enough
# [15:31] <annevk> you're patching Gecko these days?
# [15:31] <Ms2ger> Yes
# [15:31] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [15:32] <Ms2ger> And a bit of testing
# [15:33] * Joins: pleb1985 (~mike@mail.pentagondirect.com)
# [15:33] <annevk> nice
# [15:33] <annevk> converging is taking quite some time, but it's actually happening these days, which is a nice change
# [15:34] <pleb1985> I have tried googling but I gave up after 10 minutes and thought I could ask here instead: is video+audio live upstream possible with proposed html5-related technologies?
# [15:35] <annevk> with proposed technologies yes
# [15:35] <annevk> but nothing is actually implemented or done with respect to that
# [15:35] <pleb1985> which should I be looking at?
# [15:36] <annevk> I think you want to start by reading this email: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-July/027129.html
# [15:36] <pleb1985> presumably there's lots of butthurt going on around codecs etc?
# [15:37] <annevk> no discussion yet actually
# [15:37] <pleb1985> i'd use more mature terminology but I'm not sure that's really necessary/appropriate
# [15:37] <pleb1985> ;)
# [15:37] <annevk> heh
# [15:37] <pleb1985> is it likely there will be wg for that?
# [15:37] <annevk> I hope we can just use VP8 but dunno
# [15:38] <annevk> the other problem is network protocols
# [15:38] <pleb1985> Ian is the web equivalent of neo from the matrix so wrt VP8:
# [15:38] <pleb1985> I believe.
# [15:38] <annevk> well, for your scenario I guess WebSocket+VP8+<device> is enough
# [15:38] <annevk> so not much network protocol trouble
# [15:39] <annevk> but P2P...
# [15:39] <pleb1985> client server is fine :)}
# [15:40] <zcorpan_> annevk: websockets does messages, not streams
# [15:40] <annevk> zcorpan_, streams are just message blocks, no?
# [15:41] <zcorpan_> annevk: on the network, yeah i guess, but the current api for websockets is not appropriate for sending streams
# [15:42] <annevk> hmm
# [15:42] <annevk> socket.send(Stream)
# [15:42] <annevk> i think it'll work fine
# [15:42] <zcorpan_> not with how it's currently defined :)
# [15:43] <annevk> well it's not defined yet for Stream objects
# [15:43] <annevk> but I'm pretty sure that is how it's going to work
# [15:44] <zcorpan_> would you abort sending a stream if you invoke send() again?
# [15:44] <annevk> I'm not sure it's worth to discuss the specifics now :)
# [15:46] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-65-71.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
# [15:46] <annevk> And I suppose we could define a new API as well if that turns out to make more sense
# [15:46] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~hb@c83-249-67-192.bredband.comhem.se)
# [15:47] <pleb1985> socket's a bad name then eh? :)
# [15:49] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@h-112-7.A163.corp.bahnhof.se) (Read error: No route to host)
# [15:51] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [15:51] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@h-112-7.A163.corp.bahnhof.se)
# [15:52] * Quits: cedricv (~cedric@202.152.243.156) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [15:55] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
# [15:56] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@EM111-188-24-16.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: No route to host)
# [16:01] <pleb1985> annevk: i assume there's a lot of enthusiasm for <device> .. ?
# [16:01] <pleb1985> well, everyone other than the flash camp ;)
# [16:02] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@c-71-58-77-15.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
# [16:02] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@c-71-58-77-15.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Changing host)
# [16:02] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
# [16:03] <annevk> pleb1985, people certainly want a feature like that, yes
# [16:03] <pleb1985> .. and the UA guys?
# [16:04] <annevk> I think we do too, but there's plenty of other stuff that requires attention too
# [16:04] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@h-112-7.A163.corp.bahnhof.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [16:04] <pleb1985> for sure, I think you'll get more mileage from that than web sockets
# [16:05] <annevk> I guess there are some uses for just having camera input and no dedicated network integration, but you really want network integration for most use cases
# [16:06] <pleb1985> mmm, what sort of timescales would you expect on something like that?
# [16:06] <pleb1985> year?
# [16:07] <annevk> dunno really
# [16:07] <pleb1985> fair enough :)
# [16:08] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Read error: Operation timed out)
# [16:08] <annevk> if we had a few implementors and a set of people hashing out the network protocol that would be likely, but so far there's not much of that
# [16:09] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-65-71.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
# [16:13] <pleb1985> implementors on the server side?
# [16:14] <pleb1985> or you mean UA side and by 'we' you mean whatwg
# [16:14] <pleb1985> it's confusing. ;)
# [16:15] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@190.24.156.162)
# [16:15] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@190.24.156.162) (Changing host)
# [16:15] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
# [16:19] <annevk> on the user agent side
# [16:20] <pleb1985> fwiw, I'd like to see something happen there :)
# [16:22] <foolip> I'm not sure I understand why <device> needs to be an element, is it expected to have any rendering or do anything useful without scripts involved?
# [16:23] <pleb1985> I guess to ease detection ?
# [16:24] <foolip> detection of what, by whom?
# [16:24] <pleb1985> of the requirement for device connectivity
# [16:24] <pleb1985> to the user
# [16:25] <annevk> foolip, see the email
# [16:25] <foolip> annevk, I read the email, after which I asked myself above question
# [16:25] <annevk> foolip, Ian thinks this way you can design the best "interactive UI"
# [16:25] <pleb1985> foolip: you're saying you would sink that type of GUI into the browser instead, similar to http auth?
# [16:26] <annevk> foolip, i.e. that the user actually knows what he just did
# [16:26] <jgraham> foolip: I thought the idea was to have some UI for accessing the device associated with the element
# [16:26] <foolip> ok, so browser-specific (probably ugly) rendering of <device> ?
# [16:26] <annevk> foolip, yes, like <input type=file>
# [16:26] <jgraham> foolip: Something like input type="file"
# [16:27] <jgraham> Well at least our story is consistent :)
# [16:27] <annevk> where is this mercurial w3c thing?
# [16:27] <annevk> plh wants me to create a XHR placeholder file
# [16:28] <annevk> I wonder if I have an account there
# [16:28] <annevk> if not this sounds like way too much work
# [16:28] <foolip> If one is going to do video conferencing then surely one doesn't want an unstylable chunk of <device> ruining the design?
# [16:28] <foolip> of course <input type=file> has the same problem
# [16:28] <annevk> an infobar too
# [16:28] <annevk> doesn't seem like such a big deal
# [16:30] <MikeSmith> list of w3c mercurial repos is here:
# [16:30] <MikeSmith> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg
# [16:30] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: mhausenblas)
# [16:30] <MikeSmith> push access is by normal w3c username+password
# [16:31] <MikeSmith> auth on that is per-WG, done by checking the w3c user groups db
# [16:31] * Joins: bobchao (~cctw@59-121-3-35.dynamic.hinet.net)
# [16:31] * Joins: cedricv (~cedric@202.152.243.134)
# [16:31] <annevk> oh
# [16:31] * annevk tried dcvs :)
# [16:32] <annevk> now I have to learn hg
# [16:32] <annevk> crap
# [16:32] <annevk> quite a bit of make work imo
# [16:32] <jgraham> http://hginit.com/
# [16:33] <jgraham> It is _so_much_ better than CVS
# [16:33] * annevk installs mercurial
# [16:33] <Philip`> jgraham: You could say that about pretty much anything
# [16:33] <jgraham> Well worth it as soon as you have even the barest glimmer of understanding
# [16:33] <annevk> I only use CVS as changelog
# [16:33] <jgraham> Philip`: I do :)
# [16:33] <annevk> and offsite storage facility
# [16:34] <MikeSmith> here's the tutorial: hg clone, .. make changes.., hg commit, hg push ... then hg pull, .. make changes.. repeat
# [16:34] <MikeSmith> oh, with some hg merge thrown in
# [16:34] <Philip`> Unless someone else changes the repository, then you need to pull and up and merge if you already committed?
# [16:35] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@EM114-48-131-96.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
# [16:35] <jgraham> It is pretty good about telling you what you need to do
# [16:35] <jgraham> It might just take a while to get the mental model
# [16:35] <MikeSmith> Philip`: no, not if nobody's changed anything
# [16:35] <annevk> oh god
# [16:35] <jgraham> annevk: What's the problem
# [16:36] <annevk> complexity
# [16:36] <annevk> so I created w3c-hg, I run hg-init in there?
# [16:36] <jgraham> It's not that bad
# [16:36] <annevk> euh, without the dash?
# [16:36] <jgraham> You are cloning an existing repository
# [16:36] <jgraham> You just run hg clone http://url/of/repo
# [16:37] <jgraham> hg init is only needed to create one from scratch
# [16:37] <annevk> so within w3c-hg I run hg clone http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/ ?
# [16:37] <annevk> or should I create a folder webapps first?
# [16:37] <annevk> I guess I should
# [16:37] <jgraham> No need to create the folder first
# [16:37] <annevk> ok
# [16:38] <annevk> how do I add a folder via hg?
# [16:38] <jgraham> Just do hg clone
# [16:38] <MikeSmith> annevk: you can't create top-level folders
# [16:38] <jgraham> You mean add a folder to the repository?
# [16:38] <annevk> yes
# [16:38] <MikeSmith> we have to ask systems team to add one
# [16:38] <annevk> MikeSmith, inside webapps
# [16:38] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Really?
# [16:38] <MikeSmith> annevk: oh
# [16:39] <jgraham> annevk: Just create a folder and do hg add /path/to/folder
# [16:39] <MikeSmith> didn't knwo PLH had added that
# [16:39] <MikeSmith> jgraham: can't create them there at least
# [16:39] <MikeSmith> but any webapps WG member can create within the webapps folder
# [16:39] <Philip`> Or just hg add /path/to/folder/file and it'll automatically add the folder if needed
# [16:39] <jgraham> MikeSmith: That's creating whole repositories isn't it?
# [16:40] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah
# [16:40] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Right, I would imagine that is harder :)
# [16:41] <variable> http://hginit.com/ --> a decent hg tutorial
# [16:42] <annevk> I did hg commit but hg push doesn't work
# [16:42] <annevk> method not allowed
# [16:42] * Joins: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55)
# [16:43] <Philip`> Has it asked for a username/password yet?
# [16:43] <annevk> at one point during commit and I provided my W3C username
# [16:43] <annevk> didn't ask for anything since
# [16:43] <annevk> password it might pull out of .ssh?
# [16:43] <jgraham> Commit shouldn't have asked for username
# [16:43] <annevk> just like it does for CVS?
# [16:44] <jgraham> Since it only changes things in your local repository
# [16:44] <annevk> well, it did the first time
# [16:44] <Philip`> I've got it set up with ~/.hgrc containing:
# [16:44] <Philip`> [auth]
# [16:44] <Philip`> w3c.prefix = dvcs.w3.org/hg/
# [16:44] <Philip`> w3c.username = blahblah
# [16:44] <Philip`> w3c.password = blahblah
# [16:44] <jgraham> That is very surprising, no?
# [16:44] <MikeSmith> annevk: it doesn't use ssh at all
# [16:44] <annevk> i have no idea
# [16:44] <annevk> i don't know how this works
# [16:45] <annevk> but i'm learning slowly
# [16:45] <jgraham> annevk: You have a copy of the whole repository and all the history locally
# [16:45] * Quits: bobchao (~cctw@59-121-3-35.dynamic.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [16:45] <jgraham> Making a checkin changes your local copy of the repository
# [16:45] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Changing host)
# [16:45] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
# [16:46] <annevk> sure sure
# [16:46] <annevk> i'm just saying what happened
# [16:46] <jgraham> Later you push the changes to the remote
# [16:46] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@EM114-48-131-96.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [16:47] <annevk> Philip`, added that file, still failing in the same way
# [16:48] <Philip`> It might be that you need the https:// URL
# [16:48] <Philip`> rather than http://
# [16:49] <annevk> hmm
# [16:49] <Philip`> You can just edit .hg/hgrc in the checkout directory
# [16:49] <Philip`> (I think)
# [16:49] <Philip`> to change to https
# [16:49] <jgraham> You can
# [16:50] <Philip`> (Unlike SVN, which needs some crazy --relocate thing that rewrites your whole working copy)
# [16:50] <annevk> it asks for username again...
# [16:51] <annevk> (I started over)
# [16:51] <annevk> but now it worked
# [16:51] <annevk> is there a version where all this is checked out?
# [16:52] <annevk> hg serve?
# [16:52] * annevk finds http://test.w3.org/webapps/
# [16:52] <MikeSmith> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/file/eda29ce012e3/XMLHttpRequest/
# [16:52] * Quits: cedricv (~cedric@202.152.243.134)
# [16:52] <MikeSmith> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/raw-file/eda29ce012e3/XMLHttpRequest/info.htm
# [16:53] <annevk> but that's a static link no?
# [16:53] <annevk> where's the latest version?
# [16:53] <Philip`> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/file/tip/XMLHttpRequest/ if you want the latest
# [16:53] <annevk> so what's test.w3.org/webapps/ ?
# [16:54] <annevk> so http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/raw-file/tip/XMLHttpRequest/info.htm
# [16:54] <annevk> hmm
# [16:56] <annevk> how do you move files?
# [16:56] <Philip`> hg mv
# [16:56] * Joins: justicefries (~gerred@c-98-245-71-126.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
# [16:58] * Joins: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-230.uwaterloo.ca)
# [16:58] * Parts: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-230.uwaterloo.ca)
# [16:58] * Joins: cedricv (~cedric@114.56.92.150)
# [16:58] * Quits: cedricv (~cedric@114.56.92.150) (Client Quit)
# [16:59] <annevk> god it requests my username for each commit
# [16:59] <annevk> but not for hg push
# [16:59] <annevk> silly as hell
# [17:00] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [17:00] * Quits: pauld (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [17:03] <Philip`> You probably want to edit ~/.hgrc again, to say
# [17:03] <Philip`> [ui]
# [17:03] <Philip`> username = Blah Blah <blah@blah.blah>
# [17:03] <Philip`> so it knows what name to give you in the commit logs
# [17:03] * Joins: pauld (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2)
# [17:04] <annevk> can be a different username?
# [17:04] * annevk tries
# [17:04] <Philip`> It can be anything
# [17:04] <Philip`> I don't know if it has to be an email address but that seems conventional
# [17:05] <annevk> you win the interwebs
# [17:05] <annevk> i did annevk <annevk@opera.com>
# [17:06] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Disconnected...)
# [17:06] <Philip`> You can put other people's names in commits to your local repository, and when you push to the W3C repository it'll just trust the commits that you're pushing
# [17:07] * Philip` doesn't know whether there's anywhere that records who actually pushed a change
# [17:11] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [17:12] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
# [17:13] * Joins: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
# [17:14] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl) (Quit: davidhund)
# [17:15] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [17:15] * Guest90611 is now known as bzed
# [17:17] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
# [17:22] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@adsl-71-147-38-111.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net)
# [17:27] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [17:27] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com)
# [17:28] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [17:28] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-140-7.catv.broadband.hu)
# [17:30] * Quits: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [17:31] * Joins: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
# [17:32] * Quits: kmq (~kmq@85.159.13.90) (Quit: WeeChat 0.2.6.3)
# [17:33] * Joins: davidb_ (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com)
# [17:35] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [17:36] * Quits: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [17:37] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com)
# [17:37] * Joins: gavin (~gavin@people.mozilla.com)
# [17:37] * Quits: gavin (~gavin@people.mozilla.com) (Changing host)
# [17:37] * Joins: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
# [17:38] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [17:41] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
# [17:43] * Quits: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [17:46] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Quit: pesla)
# [17:52] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@adsl-71-147-38-111.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.4/20100622203044])
# [17:53] * Joins: gavin (~gavin@people.mozilla.com)
# [17:53] * Quits: gavin (~gavin@people.mozilla.com) (Changing host)
# [17:53] * Joins: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
# [17:55] * Joins: gavin__ (~gavin@people.mozilla.com)
# [17:56] * Joins: eseidel (~eseidel@c-76-102-116-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [17:57] * Quits: peol (~andree@unaffiliated/peol) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [17:57] * Quits: eseidel (~eseidel@c-76-102-116-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
# [17:57] * Quits: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [17:59] * Joins: cedricv (~cedric@202.152.243.218)
# [17:59] * Quits: cedricv (~cedric@202.152.243.218) (Client Quit)
# [18:02] * Joins: jlebar (~jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-cogdzfnkdsoqspow)
# [18:03] * Quits: foolip (~foolip@83.218.67.122) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [18:07] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Read error: Operation timed out)
# [18:08] * Quits: pleb1985 (~mike@mail.pentagondirect.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [18:08] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [18:12] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
# [18:12] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~hb@c83-249-67-192.bredband.comhem.se) (Quit: henrikbjorn)
# [18:13] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: aroben)
# [18:14] * Quits: pauld (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [18:16] * Joins: bobchao (~cctw@112.105.96.241)
# [18:17] * Joins: romeo_ (~romeo__@x1-6-00-07-95-57-08-bb.k459.webspeed.dk)
# [18:19] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-76c8e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
# [18:23] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
# [18:26] <oal> I asked this earlier, but I didn't get any response: If I want to make a simple wysiwyg/rich editor with html5-ish technology, where should I start? Are iframes and execCommand out dated?
# [18:28] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~hb@c83-249-67-192.bredband.comhem.se)
# [18:29] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [18:30] * Quits: Phae (~Phae@gatekeeper.macmillan.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [18:32] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
# [18:36] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:4aff:fe14:aad6)
# [18:36] * Joins: ojan (~ojan@nat/google/x-picgyfdwzrzhzgxr)
# [18:38] * Joins: TelFiRE (~TelFiRE@c-24-10-155-57.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)
# [18:44] <boblet> oal: things should pick up in ~4 hours, maybe try asking again in a bit
# [18:45] <oal> boblet, ok thank you :)
# [18:45] <oal> At least it was a reply ;)
# [18:45] <boblet> sorry I can’t help
# [18:45] <boblet> heh
# [18:49] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [18:49] <AryehGregor> oal, I'm not an expert, but contenteditable, designMode, execCommand, this is what you should be looking at, yes.
# [18:50] <AryehGregor> (you can do much more complicated stuff using canvas, but you'd have to implement it all from scratch; this is what Bespin does)
# [18:50] <AryehGregor> Hah, Google thinks the contents of Bespin's website is "Loading...": http://www.google.com/search?q=bespin
# [18:50] <AryehGregor> That's what you get for not having fallback.
# [18:50] <oal> AryehGregor, I've been experimenting with a div+contenteditable, but I'm unable to get selecting/applying effects correctly
# [18:51] <AryehGregor> I don't know how interoperably implemented all this stuff is in practice.
# [18:51] <AryehGregor> I do know that it's what people generally use for this.
# [18:51] <AryehGregor> If you had a specific question, maybe you could ask that, someone might know the answer.
# [18:51] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@dslb-088-075-183-145.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
# [18:52] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-197-6.dynamic.qsc.de)
# [18:52] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: aroben)
# [18:52] * Joins: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-67-180-92-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [18:52] <Philip`> oal: Why do you not want to reuse one of the existing WYSIWYG HTML editors?
# [18:53] <oal> Philip`, because I need something that can "float" on an existing page, not with static, locked toolbars etc
# [18:54] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@c-71-58-77-15.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
# [18:54] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@c-71-58-77-15.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Changing host)
# [18:54] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
# [18:54] <oal> And I don't need all the features of CKeditor and the "big" ones
# [18:56] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-24-130-129-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [18:58] * gavin__ is now known as gavin
# [19:01] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~hb@c83-249-67-192.bredband.comhem.se) (Quit: henrikbjorn)
# [19:01] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@76.79.114.210)
# [19:09] * Quits: akamike (~akamike@94-193-106-14.zone7.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: akamike)
# [19:09] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc5-seac20-2-0-cust2.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
# [19:10] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
# [19:10] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~hb@c83-249-67-192.bredband.comhem.se)
# [19:10] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [19:11] * Quits: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-67-180-92-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [19:11] <oal> Should I use <strong> or <b> in html5?
# [19:12] <Philip`> Depends on the semantics of your content
# [19:12] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.73.248) (Quit: nn)
# [19:13] <oal> Philip`, in which ways?
# [19:13] <Philip`> They mean different things, as defined by the spec
# [19:13] <oal> Ok, I'll look it up
# [19:17] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@c-d798e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan_)
# [19:21] * Joins: blue_oak (~chatzilla@c-75-69-87-167.hsd1.vt.comcast.net)
# [19:23] <boblet> oal: http://html5doctor.com/i-b-em-strong-element
# [19:24] <boblet> Philip`: “Why do you not want to reuse one of the existing WYSIWYG HTML editors?” because they’re all unmitigated shite?
# [19:24] <blue_oak> Does anyone know why the string to number and number to string conversion algorithms are written as they are when the input element is in the Date and time state?
# [19:24] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~hb@c83-249-67-192.bredband.comhem.se) (Quit: henrikbjorn)
# [19:24] <boblet> well partially mitigated by trying to support older browsers
# [19:25] <boblet> but anything using Word as a UI metaphor to emulate should be put down (mercy killing)
# [19:25] <oal> boblet, thanks. :)
# [19:25] <boblet> oal: heh, np. always easy to recommend your own stuff ;-)
# [19:26] <oal> bobchao, is that your site?
# [19:26] <bobchao> oal: boblet I think? :)
# [19:26] <boblet> oal: I’m one of the authors yep
# [19:26] <boblet> bobchao: namespace collision!
# [19:26] <oal> bobchao, sorry mate. Tab doesn't always react the way I want :P
# [19:27] <TabAtkins> xmlns=http://www.example.com/names#bob
# [19:27] <bobchao> boblet: true, haha actually this is the second time :P
# [19:27] <oal> boblet, looks like a good source for html5 stuff. thank you
# [19:27] <boblet> heh. I have the same problem with mike][inq and MikeSmith
# [19:28] <boblet> oal: it’s a superlative resource! and I don’t only say that because some of the articles are mine ;-)
# [19:28] <boblet> honest!
# [19:28] <oal> Yes, I'll definitely use it again :)
# [19:32] <boblet> oal:if you can make something that’s not
# [19:32] <boblet> woops
# [19:32] <oal> Wrong channel?
# [19:33] <boblet> oal: if you can make something that outputs decent code and doesn’t look as ugly as a MS product, I’ll use it too
# [19:33] <boblet> fat-fingered
# [19:34] <oal> If I only knew how I should solve all the issues I stumble upon, I might get a decent result, but now things are going sloow...
# [19:35] <boblet> oal: hopefully you’ll choose to only support modern browsers, as I’m sure the millstone of ahem older ones doesn’t help current projects any
# [19:36] <boblet> oal: one I liked was wmd http://wmd-editor.com/
# [19:36] <oal> boblet, definitely will focus most on newer browsers
# [19:37] <boblet> oal: regardless I think you’ll need lots of luck (it’d be a touch project) so good luck!
# [19:37] <boblet> :)
# [19:37] <oal> I know. If I get things going, the goal is to make a simple editor, not anything fancy
# [19:40] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@dnuhd.xs4all.nl)
# [19:41] * Quits: gavin (~gavin@people.mozilla.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [19:41] * Joins: gavin (~gavin@people.mozilla.com)
# [19:41] * Quits: gavin (~gavin@people.mozilla.com) (Changing host)
# [19:41] * Joins: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
# [19:41] * Joins: dandaman (~Daniel.Sa@216.52.240.243)
# [19:42] <dandaman> im trying to set a thing border that will surround my content on my site automatically(so it will depend on the viewer's resolution) is there a way to do that?
# [19:42] <dandaman> <body style="border:thin solid #003366;width: 150px">
# [19:42] <dandaman> kinda like that
# [19:42] <dandaman> except the width not being set
# [19:43] * Joins: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-24-130-129-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [19:43] <TabAtkins> body { border: thin solid #036; margin: 0 20px; } ?
# [19:43] <dandaman> in css
# [19:43] <dandaman> ?
# [19:43] <TabAtkins> Yes. It's all CSS.
# [19:44] <dandaman> it doesnt hug it perfectly
# [19:44] <dandaman> but oh well, it works
# [19:44] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
# [19:44] <TabAtkins> I dunno quite what you're exactly asking for.
# [19:45] <dandaman> well im doing this for a mobile app
# [19:45] <dandaman> so the screen size makes it work
# [19:45] <dandaman> thanks
# [19:45] <TabAtkins> O...k?
# [19:46] <AryehGregor> Why margin: 0 2px; instead of margin: 0;?
# [19:46] * Joins: apucacao (~apucacao@S010600226b6dbc54.vc.shawcable.net)
# [19:47] <TabAtkins> I had no idea what he was asking for, so I went with some margins.
# [19:47] <TabAtkins> If he just wanted a literal border on the edges, then yeah, margin:0;.
# [19:48] <dandaman> on the edges of the text
# [19:48] <dandaman> not on the edges of the browser
# [19:48] <TabAtkins> Oh, you want it to wrap whatever you've got?
# [19:48] <TabAtkins> Then margin:0 auto;
# [19:49] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0)
# [19:51] <dandaman> thanks
# [19:52] <dandaman> auto did not work :\
# [19:52] <TabAtkins> No, it works. You may be doing something preventing it from working.
# [19:52] <TabAtkins> Can you provide a live site and a description of what precisely you're looking for?
# [19:54] <dandaman> let me try....
# [19:54] <dandaman> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1/
# [19:54] <dandaman> i guess see how the note is being bordered
# [19:54] <dandaman> by that red
# [19:54] <TabAtkins> (Also, for future reference, #css is a better channel for these sorts of things.)
# [19:54] <dandaman> i want basically that
# [19:54] <dandaman> except a border all over everything
# [19:54] <dandaman> that fits snugly
# [19:54] <dandaman> currently i have all my text centered
# [19:54] <dandaman> and the border reaches accross the entire screen
# [19:55] <TabAtkins> Yes.
# [19:55] <dandaman> which i dont want
# [19:55] <dandaman> i want it only close to the text
# [19:55] <TabAtkins> Set display:table-cell on the body as well.
# [19:56] <TabAtkins> Or rather, display:table, since you still want the margin:0 auto; to apply.
# [19:56] <dandaman> AWESOME
# [19:56] <dandaman> THANKS
# [19:56] <dandaman> sorry caps
# [19:56] <dandaman> but you win
# [19:56] * Joins: maikmerten_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-196-56.dynamic.qsc.de)
# [19:56] <TabAtkins> (Eventually you'll be able to use width:fit-content;, but for now you can only do it in FF with width:-moz-fit-content;.)
# [19:57] <TabAtkins> Note: won't work on IE7 or earlier.
# [19:58] <dandaman> hmm, is there a way to have a different background color within the border and a different bg color outside of the border?
# [19:58] <TabAtkins> Set one background on <body>, and one on <html>.
# [19:59] <dandaman> good call
# [19:59] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-197-6.dynamic.qsc.de) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [20:00] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
# [20:03] * Quits: blue_oak (~chatzilla@c-75-69-87-167.hsd1.vt.comcast.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.6/20100625231939])
# [20:04] <dandaman> when i go <html background="#FFFFFF"> it doesnt work, the body style= background takes over the whole page and <html style= "background: #FFFFFF"> makes the page go blank (and when i hit view source there is nothing there)
# [20:04] <dandaman> I am using grails to run the server btw
# [20:04] <dandaman> dunno if that makes a difference
# [20:05] <TabAtkins> Oh, right, sorry. The <body>'s background is hoisted to the entire viewport, so that won't work.
# [20:05] <TabAtkins> In that case, you'll have to create a wrapper, move your current body styling to it, then set the "back" background on <body>.
# [20:06] * Joins: pleb1985 (~mike@206-54.ngn1.newtelsolutions.net)
# [20:06] <TabAtkins> Well, hum. Actually, setting backgrounds on <html> and <body> work fine for me in Chrome.
# [20:06] <dandaman> just throw a <div> around everything?
# [20:06] <TabAtkins> Worst case, yeah.
# [20:06] <dandaman> yeah im doing this on chrome
# [20:07] <TabAtkins> Hmm, then. If I explicitly set a background through <html @style> and <body @style>, they both take effect exactly as expected.
# [20:07] <dandaman> div worked
# [20:08] <dandaman> might just be grails
# [20:08] <TabAtkins> That would be... bizarre. A server-side framework shouldn't have any effect on how client-side CSS works, unless it's inserting additional CSS without you knowing.
# [20:09] <TabAtkins> And when I say "shouldn't" I mean "actually can't, because it's physically impossible".
# [20:09] <AryehGregor> My website sets separate backgrounds on <html> and <body>.
# [20:10] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I'd messed up. <body>'s background gets hoisted to the viewport *if* <html> doesn't have a background.
# [20:10] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
# [20:11] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
# [20:12] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Client Quit)
# [20:12] * Joins: gratz|home (~gratz@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust237.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
# [20:14] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
# [20:15] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Client Quit)
# [20:17] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
# [20:20] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: Connection timed out)
# [20:24] * TabAtkins just typed </meh> instead of </em>.
# [20:24] <TabAtkins> I think that's the exact opposite semantic.
# [20:26] <Workshiva> </meh> could complement </sarcasm>
# [20:27] * Quits: pleb1985 (~mike@206-54.ngn1.newtelsolutions.net) (Quit: Lost terminal)
# [20:30] * Quits: phrearch (~phrearch_@82-136-229-19.ip.telfort.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [20:33] * Quits: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: nimbupani)
# [20:35] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@c-d798e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
# [20:35] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-fyimbnfiewvcirul)
# [20:39] * Joins: eseidel (~eseidel@c-76-102-116-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [20:44] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.16.234)
# [20:48] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: aroben)
# [20:49] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [20:51] * Joins: estellevw (~estelle@adsl-99-170-149-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
# [20:51] * boblet is <meh>
# [20:51] <boblet> nn all
# [20:53] * Quits: dandaman (~Daniel.Sa@216.52.240.243) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [20:56] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I saw Avenue Q. It was fun, but it didn't quite live up to the expectations (the best songs were before the intermission and it kinda flattened out from there)
# [20:58] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.16.234) (Quit: weinig)
# [20:59] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
# [21:00] * Joins: riven (~riven@53518387.cable.casema.nl)
# [21:01] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.16.234)
# [21:04] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p1201-ipbf709osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: boblet)
# [21:05] * Quits: variable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [21:17] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
# [21:18] * Quits: eseidel (~eseidel@c-76-102-116-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: eseidel)
# [21:19] * Joins: variable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable)
# [21:26] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-65-71.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [21:31] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-19-245.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
# [21:32] * Quits: JohnResig (~JohnResig@ejohn.org) (Quit: leaving)
# [21:32] * Joins: JohnResig (~JohnResig@121.255.201.74.static.ey03.engineyard.com)
# [21:43] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
# [21:43] * Quits: estellevw (~estelle@adsl-99-170-149-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: estellevw)
# [21:50] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [21:50] * Joins: eseidel (~eseidel@166.135.3.5)
# [21:51] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.16.234) (Quit: weinig)
# [21:55] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.16.234)
# [21:56] <hober> anyone going to oscon this year?
# [22:07] * Joins: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
# [22:09] <zcorpan_> Hixie: r5162, i think it also affected <option>
# [22:12] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.125)
# [22:16] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@190.24.156.162)
# [22:16] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@190.24.156.162) (Changing host)
# [22:16] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
# [22:17] * Quits: maikmerten_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-196-56.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [22:19] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com) (Quit: davidb)
# [22:24] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
# [22:26] * Joins: slightlyoff (~slightlyo@nat/google/x-tbtvvgflnzorlbio)
# [22:28] * Quits: apucacao (~apucacao@S010600226b6dbc54.vc.shawcable.net) (Quit: apucacao)
# [22:29] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@dnuhd.xs4all.nl) (Quit: davidhund)
# [22:37] * Quits: eseidel (~eseidel@166.135.3.5) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [22:40] <AryehGregor> Blast Opera's nonsensical treatment of # in data URLs.
# [22:42] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@dnuhd.xs4all.nl)
# [22:48] <zcorpan_> not supporting fragments in data urls is what's nonsensical
# [22:49] <cardona507> saying Opera Mini loads quicker than the stock android browser is whats nonsensical. :P
# [22:50] <AryehGregor> zcorpan_, I have so far had documents in data URLs randomly break several times in Opera and Opera only because of its fragment treatment. I have never wanted to actually use a fragment in a data URI that I can recall.
# [22:52] <AryehGregor> Okay, I just tried drawing shadows with canvas, and got three significantly different results in three different browsers.
# [22:52] <AryehGregor> I have no idea who's actually right, or if the spec is just vague.
# [22:53] <AryehGregor> It doesn't look vague to me, unless Gaussian blurs aren't well-defined.
# [22:53] <cardona507> different results in different browser?! I am shocked :)
# [22:53] <TabAtkins> The spec for <canvas>'s shadows is basically just "whatever Safari did", so it should be fine.
# [22:53] <cardona507> *browsers
# [22:53] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#shadows
# [22:54] <AryehGregor> <!doctype html> <canvas height="300" width="300"></canvas> <script> window.addEventListener('load', function () { context = document.getElementsByTagName("canvas")[0].getContext("2d"); context.shadowBlur = 50; context.shadowColor = 'black'; context.fillRect(100, 100, 100, 100); }, false); </script>
# [22:54] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: No, that's well-defined. Any problem with it is a browser bug.
# [22:54] * Joins: arosenberg (~alexr@sceapdsd43-89.989studios.com)
# [22:54] <AryehGregor> In which browser, and how do I tell?
# [22:54] <AryehGregor> I'm guessing they implemented this feature before it was specced.
# [22:54] <arosenberg> I'll retry posting my thought from the other day.
# [22:55] <TabAtkins> Calculate the gaussian matrix yourself from the appropriate stdev, run it manually, then diff against the browser?
# [22:55] <AryehGregor> IIRC, the algorithm follows WebKit, so maybe I should assume everyone but them is wrong.
# [22:55] <TabAtkins> That's probably correct.
# [22:55] <arosenberg> There seems to be no way to get the response code or headers from an injected script tag.
# [22:56] <AryehGregor> The treatment of the blur parameter is at least slightly insane. Maybe it should be cleaned up in the spec, since clearly there's no interop here anyway.
# [22:56] <arosenberg> And yet the twitter API returns results in the headers with a 400 response for rate limiting.
# [22:56] <TabAtkins> It is immensely insane, in fact.
# [22:56] <arosenberg> XHR has provisions for this info, and I think it should be addressed for script tags as well.
# [22:56] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925210699.dsl.bell.ca)
# [22:57] <arosenberg> (BTW, I'm thrilled that onerror now gets called for a script tag.)
# [22:57] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Since we're discussing what precisely a "blur value" means in CSS right now (since every single browser treats it differently), it should sync up with whatever we decide for that.
# [22:57] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, this is in the context of a post I was making there.
# [22:57] <AryehGregor> (Violently disagreeing with you, as it happens.)
# [22:57] <TabAtkins> Ah, haven't read the thread yet today.
# [22:57] <TabAtkins> I'm saving it for last.
# [22:58] <AryehGregor> arosenberg, try posting to the whatwg list, it's a better way to get a response.
# [22:58] <zcorpan_> arosenberg: xhr has same-origin policy, script doesn't
# [22:58] * Quits: romeo_ (~romeo__@x1-6-00-07-95-57-08-bb.k459.webspeed.dk) (Quit: Leaving)
# [22:59] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Ah, you haven't actually sent the post yet.
# [22:59] <AryehGregor> No.
# [22:59] <zcorpan_> arosenberg: so being able to read headers from arbitrary sources cross-origin would be a new security problem
# [23:00] <zcorpan_> arosenberg: i guess it could be exposed for same-origin only, but what's the use case?
# [23:00] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [23:00] <Philip`> AryehGregor: It doesn't follow WebKit, it follows CoreGraphics
# [23:01] <Philip`> i.e. what Safari does
# [23:01] <Philip`> not (necessarily) any other WebKit ports
# [23:01] <AryehGregor> Oh, I see.
# [23:01] <AryehGregor> So Chrome won't match WebKit here.
# [23:01] <AryehGregor> Er.
# [23:01] <TabAtkins> Mac/Safari, to be precise.
# [23:01] <AryehGregor> Won't match Safari
# [23:01] <AryehGregor> .
# [23:01] <Philip`> since WebKit just defers to the graphics layer for almost all of this
# [23:01] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Win/Safari too, since that uses CG
# [23:01] <TabAtkins> Oh, CG is one Win too?
# [23:01] * TabAtkins knows nothing.
# [23:02] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: What's the gist of your violent disagreement?
# [23:02] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, the spec should say something pixel-perfect even if that means it's author-incomprehensible. Authors can figure out what values they like quickly by trial and error.
# [23:03] <AryehGregor> They have to do that anyway, reading the spec won't tell them by itself.
# [23:03] <AryehGregor> (even if it gives a general idea of how much blur to expect)
# [23:03] * Joins: ap_ (~ap@17.246.17.28)
# [23:04] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:4aff:fe14:aad6) (Read error: Operation timed out)
# [23:04] * ap_ is now known as ap
# [23:05] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I am *potentially* okay with pixel-perfect spec descriptions. What I'm *not* okay with is the actual component value provided by the author being an opaque number, when we can just as easily make it sensical.
# [23:05] <AryehGregor> If anyone has the latest IE9 handy, I'd be interested to hear what that canvas looks like.
# [23:06] <AryehGregor> Does it match the SVG here? http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10169#c1
# [23:06] <Philip`> http://test.w3.org/html/tests/submission/PhilipTaylor/canvas/index.2d.shadow.blur.html
# [23:06] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: Rik`)
# [23:06] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
# [23:06] <Philip`> Opera (on Linux) looks correct, I assume Safari is still correct, Firefox (3.6 on Linux) looks all wrong
# [23:07] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-fyimbnfiewvcirul) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
# [23:07] <AryehGregor> On Linux, Opera looks correct on both, Chrome looks wrong on both, Firefox 4 looks wrong on small blurs but okay on big blurs.
# [23:07] <AryehGregor> Actually, it looks wrong on big blurs too, but not so drastically.
# [23:07] <AryehGregor> What does IE9 look like? I'm betting it's correct.
# [23:08] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.16.234) (Quit: weinig)
# [23:08] <arosenberg> zcorpan_: I haven't carefully considered the security implications, but I don't see the differences between a script tag's arbitrary source ability and the headers from same.
# [23:08] <Philip`> (Search for "sigma" in http://test.w3.org/html/tests/submission/PhilipTaylor/tools/canvas/tests2d.yaml which is how the bottom images in my tests are generated)
# [23:08] <Philip`> (which hopefully matches the spec's requirement)
# [23:09] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925210699.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: davidb)
# [23:09] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
# [23:10] <AryehGregor> Philip`, do you think my markup in these two cases is supposed to display the same? http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10169#c1
# [23:10] <AryehGregor> As far as I can tell, it's supposed to be a 100x100px black box offset 100x100px with five sigmas of blur in both cases.
# [23:10] <AryehGregor> Hmm, no, I miscalculated for canvas?
# [23:10] <AryehGregor> sqrt(100) = 10, not 5.
# [23:10] * AryehGregor tries again
# [23:10] <Hixie> zcorpan_: how?
# [23:12] <zcorpan_> Hixie: <body><option></option>
# [23:12] <Philip`> AryehGregor: The canvas one is a solid box on top of a blurred box, the SVG one looks like simply a blurred box
# [23:12] <Hixie> oh right because we made </option> not so special after all
# [23:12] <Hixie> hmm
# [23:12] <Hixie> damn
# [23:12] <Hixie> i shouldn't have put it in the list of special tags then
# [23:12] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
# [23:12] <Philip`> (where by "looks" I mean from the source code, not the rendering)
# [23:13] <Philip`> You could draw the canvas's box at x=-200 with shadowOffsetX=200
# [23:13] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@dnuhd.xs4all.nl) (Quit: davidhund)
# [23:13] <Philip`> Uh, 300
# [23:13] <Philip`> or whatever
# [23:13] <Philip`> to get just the shadow rendered
# [23:14] <AryehGregor> Hmm, good idea.
# [23:14] <Hixie> i would really appreciate it if someone could check http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=5163&to=5164 with a fine tooth comb to make sure i didn't screw up anything
# [23:14] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-qqlkpbsmmoyesfdv)
# [23:15] * Joins: eseidel (~eseidel@c-98-210-108-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [23:15] * Quits: Matjas (5bb68fa0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.182.143.160) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [23:15] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.16.234)
# [23:15] <AryehGregor> Philip`, nice, that works perfectly. Thanks!
# [23:16] <AryehGregor> Pixel-perfect.
# [23:21] <AryehGregor> Should I file a bug against Firefox?
# [23:21] * AryehGregor doesn't see an existing one, unless it's: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=478459
# [23:23] <eseidel> Hixie: you are a machine
# [23:23] <eseidel> zomg it's a hsivonen!
# [23:24] <eseidel> hsivonen: and here I thought you were avoiding me :p
# [23:24] <annevk> oh god
# [23:24] <annevk> tyler close wtf
# [23:24] <annevk> guess it's time for bed
# [23:24] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: ⌘Q)
# [23:25] <annevk> eseidel, lol
# [23:25] <eseidel> nah, hsivonen is still avoiding me :p
# [23:27] <Hixie> eseidel: once i get started on bugs i can crank through them easily yeah :-)
# [23:28] <Hixie> eseidel: check out my downhill gradients on http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html :-)
# [23:28] <Hixie> (blue line is bugs)
# [23:30] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Filing bugs is good :-)
# [23:30] <Philip`> AryehGregor: unless you want browsers to converge on a behaviour that's different to what's currently specced
# [23:31] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I already filed an HTML5 bug for that. :)
# [23:32] <eseidel> Hixie: I was just commenting to abarth that it would be nice if there was a version of the spec which showed diffs since a revision/date. I'm curious if such exists already? Basically I want a version of the spec with red/green in it to show me what has changed since I implemented it (i.e. at a specific date or revision).
# [23:32] <eseidel> a diff sorta gives me that, but I want full context of the spec
# [23:32] <eseidel> I'm sure I could generate such a thing myself from svn, but perhaps it already exists?
# [23:34] * Quits: justicefries (~gerred@c-98-245-71-126.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Quit: justicefries)
# [23:36] <Hixie> eseidel: the spec is >5 MB, I'm not aware of any HTML diffing tool that can handle it
# [23:36] * Joins: everton (~everton@KD118153063184.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp)
# [23:36] <eseidel> ha
# [23:36] <Hixie> eseidel: the tracker page lets you see diffs in the source between two arbitrary revisions, though
# [23:37] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [23:37] <zcorpan_> you could generate an html diff for the a multipage page
# [23:37] <zcorpan_> s/the//
# [23:38] * Joins: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
# [23:39] <Hixie> i think it would be really cool if someone could make a version of the spec that let you see diffs between versions and let you see inline blame annotations for everything so you could navigate the spec's history and changes
# [23:39] <Hixie> but i'm not gonna do it myself :-)
# [23:40] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [23:40] <variable> Hixie, the spec is stored via svn?
# [23:40] <annevk> yeah, svn.whatwg.org/webapps/source
# [23:40] <Hixie> what anne said
# [23:40] <variable> then I know there is already a program that does that
# [23:40] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@190.24.156.162)
# [23:40] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@190.24.156.162) (Changing host)
# [23:40] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
# [23:40] <variable> svn has a native command line version and I know I've seen a web version
# [23:41] <variable> right - WebSVN
# [23:42] * Joins: justicefries (~gerred@c-98-245-71-126.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
# [23:42] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@109.96.239.57) (Quit: .)
# [23:45] <Slaanesh> Man, chrome is such a pain... clearing the location bar after each javascript command
# [23:46] <zcorpan_> Slaanesh: yeah, what's up with that
# [23:46] <Slaanesh> Let's blame Hixie
# [23:47] <TabAtkins> Slaanesh: Hit F12, then Esc if the console isn't up yet.
# [23:47] <Hixie> variable: i meant some sort of dynamic "web 2.0" "ajax" app version of the spec, not the spec source, but websvn would certainly be a step in the right direction
# [23:48] <zcorpan_> s/"web 2.0" "ajax"/html5/
# [23:48] <Slaanesh> TabAtkins: I assume you're trying to enable the jsconsole, but that doesn't work here, since it has superpermissions
# [23:49] * TabAtkins didn't realize that permissions mattered in any way here.
# [23:49] <variable> I always "web 2.0" to mean "user content"
# [23:49] <variable> Hixie, what particular features did you want fancy animations when the user clicks "diff"?
# [23:50] <Slaanesh> Well, F12 also doesn't open it :P
# [23:50] <Hixie> i meant something where you would be reading the spec and as you hovered over the spec it would highlight each fragment that had been updated, and in the margin would just the most recent revision that had that change, or something, and you could click on it to switch to that revision, or to see the diff, or something
# [23:50] <Slaanesh> shift-ctrl-j, apparently
# [23:50] <Hixie> i really have no concrete idea here :-)
# [23:50] <eseidel> Hixie: it seems minefield and webkit both blindly coalesce text into the previous node, ignoring the "if it was the last node inserted by the parser" check for character token insertion
# [23:50] <eseidel> example: <table>A<td>B</td>C</table>
# [23:50] <eseidel> the spec says that should be two separate notes "A" and "B"
# [23:50] <variable> Hixie, ah, like built into the current spec with the fancy commenting and such
# [23:51] <eseidel> both minefield and WK make "AC"
# [23:51] <eseidel> sorry "A" and "C" not "A" and "B"
# [23:52] <Hixie> variable: yeah something
# [23:53] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0) (Quit: mdelaney)
# [23:53] <eseidel> Hixie: I'm attempting to test IE now.
# [23:53] <Hixie> eseidel: you mean with hsivonen's parser or the old one?
# [23:53] <eseidel> minefield, so new parser
# [23:54] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
# [23:54] <Hixie> eseidel: i seem to recall there were pretty important performance reasons for not doing that, but ok
# [23:54] * eseidel wonders if there is a version of live dom viewer or plexode which works in IE
# [23:55] <eseidel> hmm, maybe
# [23:58] * Quits: TelFiRE (~TelFiRE@c-24-10-155-57.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) (Quit: TelFiRE)
# [23:58] <Hixie> e.g. it lets you reuse your buffers in your parser without having to worry about being compatible with the buffers your CreateTextNode() implementation uses
# [23:58] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0)
# [23:58] <Hixie> and it means you only have to have one "active" buffer at a time
# [23:59] <Hixie> so you don't run the risk of having to increase the length of your buffer and finding that you can't just allocate more RAM, you have to move the entire buffer around first
# Session Close: Thu Jul 15 00:00:00 2010

The end :)