/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-07-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jul 16 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Philip`> I expect the level of fun depends on whether you're TabAtkins or one of his victims
  4. # [00:00] <AryehGregor> Or at least, you shouldn't rely on it taking an appreciable amount of time.
  5. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: True. I suppose a setTimeout(func,10) would be safer. Even if browsers actually run it at the stated speed, it'll be up for long enough.
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  7. # [00:00] <AryehGregor> 10 ms isn't enough to be perceptible, I don't think.
  8. # [00:00] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure 50 ms is the bare minimum.
  9. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> Philip`: To my knowledge, nobody's ever consciously realized it, but they have mentioned something odd.
  10. # [00:01] <Hixie> othermaciej: i can't find anything about exposing a selection in MSAA or MUIA
  11. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: setTimeout generally delays by about 30ms, which is actually a relatively long period of time for it to be up, from experience.
  12. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> I'd flash it for less if I could.
  13. # [00:01] <jgraham> 30ms? Are you sure?
  14. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> jgraham: No, I'm not, just going off of memory. The MDC says that Gecko uses 10ms minimum.
  15. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> And HTML5 apparently defines a minimum of 4ms, which means that 0 is forward-compatible enough for me.
  16. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> So, if it's flashing for 10ms in Gecko (the browser I used for testing when I was doing more webdev) then that's plenty enough.
  17. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: It's possible that 50ms or so is the minimum to *comprehend* what's seen, but it's definitely not the minimum to note that *something* is there.
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  20. # [00:06] <jgraham> Seems to be about 10 in Opera and Firefox but 5 in Chrome
  21. # [00:06] <Hixie> othermaciej: http://www.mozilla.org/access/windows/msaa-server#Hacky_caret_tracking_not_working
  22. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> Sigh.
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  25. # [00:08] <jgraham> Sigh is one way to put it
  26. # [00:08] <AryehGregor> I can identify the word "Test" here something like half the time: time.sleep(0.5); print "Test",; sys.stdout.flush(); time.sleep(0.025); print "\b\b\b\b\b "; sys.stdout.flush()
  27. # [00:08] <AryehGregor> No, less.
  28. # [00:09] <AryehGregor> If I bump 0.025 to 0.03, I can distinguish it clearly all the time, if I'm looking.
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  30. # [00:11] <AryehGregor> At 0.02 I can't see anything, but it's not perfect, since it adds newlines and the cursor gets in the way.
  31. # [00:11] <othermaciej> Hixie: that seems to be par for the course for Windows accessibility...
  32. # [00:11] <othermaciej> a whole lot of hacky screenscraping
  33. # [00:11] <Hixie> i can't find _anything_ about the text selection being exposed
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  35. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, http://pastebin.com/WvfYS5LM
  36. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> What do you see from that?
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  38. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> I can clearly see the word "Test" flash.
  39. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> What if you adjust the DELAY?
  40. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> I see it flash at 0.025, but not 0.02.
  41. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> There's some odd effects here. At .025 it flashes, at .024 it's completely invisible.
  42. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> I think I only see it at 0.025 because of intermittent additional delays, though. I only see it some of the time.
  43. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> It's not flashing at all.
  44. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> Maybe it would be more accurate to spin and poll the current time. Probably time.sleep() isn't so accurate.
  45. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  46. # [00:23] * Joins: JonathanNeal_ (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com)
  47. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> doing it in js is much better. Load this up in your console: unction flash(delay,visible) { document.body.innerHTML = visible ? "test" : ""; setTimeout(function(){ flash(delay, !visible); }, visible ? delay : 1000); }
  48. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> How do you get a JavaScript console? I've never had to.
  49. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> What browser you got?
  50. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> Chrome right now.
  51. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> right click, inspect element, hit Esc if the console isn't already up.
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  53. # [00:26] <AryehGregor> Even at 0 it's clearly visible.
  54. # [00:26] <AryehGregor> Clearly JS timers stink.
  55. # [00:28] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, should I report the totally bogus canvas shadows on the Chromium tracker, or will it just be WontFix? Does canvas really need such fast shadow drawing?
  56. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> I dunno. Go ahead and report.
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  60. # [00:35] <AryehGregor> Maybe I'll do that tomorrow.
  61. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> annevk: In the grammar for media_query_list, you're missing a S* after the first media_query.
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  63. # [00:39] * MikeSmithXX is now known as MikeSmith
  64. # [00:39] <Hixie> aha!
  65. # [00:39] <Hixie> othermaciej: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff384841(v=VS.85).aspx
  66. # [00:40] <annevk> TabAtkins, no
  67. # [00:40] <Hixie> othermaciej: specifically, ITextRangeProvider::GetBoundingRectangles
  68. # [00:40] <annevk> TabAtkins, that S* can be found elsewhere
  69. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> annevk: Not in all circumstances.
  70. # [00:40] <annevk> TabAtkins, nested :)
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  72. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> Oh, wait. Damn, you're right.
  73. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> I missed the S* trailing the expression token.
  74. # [00:41] <annevk> CSS grammar is evil
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  76. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> ftfy: grammar is evil
  77. # [00:41] <annevk> we should have HTML5-like style imo
  78. # [00:41] <annevk> that would also exemplify how fricking complex it is
  79. # [00:41] <Hixie> othermaciej: apparently on windows you have to use a "system caret" rather than draw your own: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms646968(v=VS.85).aspx and the section at the end of the earlier cited http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff384841(v=VS.85).aspx
  80. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> Maybe for core grammar. For properties the CSS grammar is a big win in general.
  81. # [00:42] <annevk> properties are defined in woefully inconsistent ways
  82. # [00:43] <annevk> and the grammar for properties is usually some kind of adhoc stuff made up on the fly
  83. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> Inconsistency can and should be fixed. But the principle is sound and usually easily readable.
  84. # [00:43] <annevk> I guess it works because you sort of understand what is going on, but it's not particularly great
  85. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Frex, what's easier, seeing "::cue( [ <voice> || <type> || <time> ] )" (or whatever), or seeing a parser for the same?
  86. # [00:47] <annevk> just ::cue is actually buggy somewhat
  87. # [00:47] <annevk> should be something like "::"{C}{U}{E}
  88. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> If we're writing a *real* grammar, yes. But we're not.
  89. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> This is just a shorthand for describing the grammar.
  90. # [00:48] <annevk> no even in the shorthand you need to do that
  91. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> I have never seen that in any property ever.
  92. # [00:49] <AryehGregor> You could have non-normative text giving a basic description of the property, then have a real parser defined for actual implementations.
  93. # [00:49] <annevk> see e.g. how :not is defined
  94. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> And it would be silly to do so, imo, because it drastically reduces readability for no good reason.
  95. # [00:49] <AryehGregor> which is kind of what HTML5 does.
  96. # [00:49] <AryehGregor> I mean, it has the nice foo(bar [ , baz [ , quuz ] ] ) stuff.
  97. # [00:50] <AryehGregor> Just not normatively.
  98. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> annevk: :not() only receives that treatment in the official grammar section.
  99. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> There, yes, use the normal rules for whatever language we're expressing this stuff in.
  100. # [00:51] <annevk> we're discussing grammar, no?
  101. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> I'm discussing the grammar that you see in property blocks and similar.
  102. # [00:51] <Hixie> i'll be damned if i can work out what we need to do for caret and selection accessibility on windows
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  104. # [00:56] <AryehGregor> You can't just ask someone at Microsoft?
  105. # [00:56] <AryehGregor> You know, like you asked Maciej about OS X?
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  107. # [00:57] <Hixie> i didn't ask maciej, he just told me :-)
  108. # [00:57] <Hixie> who should i ask?
  109. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> I dunno directly, but you could start by hitting up Sylvain I guess, and he could direct you accordingly.
  110. # [00:58] <AryehGregor> There are Microsoft people in the HTMLWG, no?
  111. # [00:58] <AryehGregor> Probably they won't know themselves, but they can forward your request someplace.
  112. # [00:59] <MikeSmith> I suspect Frank Olivier would know well
  113. # [01:00] <MikeSmith> Hixie: would this relate to drag-and-drop as well?
  114. # [01:01] <MikeSmith> I mean to keyboard activatability of text selection in drag-and-drop ?
  115. # [01:01] <MikeSmith> hmm, I guess those are actually orthogonal
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  117. # [01:03] <Hixie> yeah i don't see how
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  119. # [01:09] <Hixie> anyway, regarding asking microsoft, i suspect the people who would know and whom i would be able to ask are in the a11y tf, so hopefully they'll reply to rich's e-mail and explain what we need
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  123. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> an ImageData is static, right? So if I need to do an input->output filter, I can just grab two ImageDatas from the same canvas?
  124. # [01:22] * TabAtkins will just test it anyway.
  125. # [01:22] <Hixie> static?
  126. # [01:23] <Hixie> use createImageData() if you need an output image data
  127. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> In that if I grab two ImageDatas from the same canvas and alter one, the other won't be affected?
  128. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> Ah, that'll work too.
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  145. # [02:18] <Templarian> I'm going through and helping out extending the autocomplete for an editor and they wanted to put all css3 in... is user-select in the spec? It says it was superseded by a newer document that lacks user-select.
  146. # [02:19] <Templarian> So am I to believe that if it doesn't exist in http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-ui/ it shouldn't be added?
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  149. # [02:20] <TabAtkins> For now, yes.
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  151. # [02:20] <TabAtkins> Also, css3-ui isn't really supported now, though it's picked up an active editor again.
  152. # [02:21] <TabAtkins> (Supposedly.)
  153. # [02:21] <Templarian> Well they added all the -prefixes and wanted to just keep them in and just remove them if they don't make it through later on.
  154. # [02:22] <Templarian> I'm leaving user-select out and all the ones not in it till later.
  155. # [02:22] <Templarian> Thanks. :D
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  159. # [02:35] <TabAtkins> Hm. Anyone know why I'm seeing an assymmetry here? The code should be perfectly symmetrical. www.xanthir.com/test.html
  160. # [02:35] * TabAtkins is testing true gaussian blurs.
  161. # [02:35] <MikeSmith> cool to see paul_irish getting a hat tip in http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/07/15/the-css-corner-better-web-typography-for-better-design.aspx
  162. # [02:35] <MikeSmith> bravo Sylvain
  163. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> For whatever reason, the white half blurs wider than the black half.
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  166. # [02:40] <Arimil> What is the difference between the <head> and <header> tags?
  167. # [02:40] <Arimil> I know head is required but I always put all my header info in there.
  168. # [02:40] <Hixie> they are in no way similar other than by name :-)
  169. # [02:40] <TabAtkins> <head> marks the section of the html document that holds metadata and isn't displayed. <header> is just a way of marking up a header section in your content.
  170. # [02:40] <Hixie> what tab said
  171. # [02:41] <Arimil> Ah so I shouldn't put anything else in head, thanks I'll move it all to a <header> tag.
  172. # [02:42] <Arimil> Should I move scripts out of header also?
  173. # [02:42] <Arimil> head I mean
  174. # [02:42] <TabAtkins> scripts should go in <head>.
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  176. # [02:42] <Arimil> OK, thanks again.
  177. # [02:44] <Hixie> basically anything that you can see in the browser goes in the <body>
  178. # [02:44] <Hixie> and <header> goes in the <body>
  179. # [02:44] <Hixie> <head> goes before the <body>
  180. # [02:44] <Hixie> <header> is a bit like <div>, it's just for heading-related things like <h1>, or the publication date, or whatnot
  181. # [02:44] <Hixie> the spec has a number of examples
  182. # [02:44] <Hixie> http://whatwg.org/html5
  183. # [02:44] <Hixie> search for <header>
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  188. # [03:03] <boblet> MikeSmith: pity they didn’t link to Craig Mod’s @font-face example page, but I guess it would have made theirs look somewhat tame in comparison
  189. # [03:03] <MikeSmith> boblet: add a comment
  190. # [03:03] <boblet> MikeSmith: no fallbacks so no x-browser compat either
  191. # [03:04] <MikeSmith> big whoop
  192. # [03:04] <boblet> MikeSmith: well, they’re demoing WOFF, not @font-face (despite talking about it)
  193. # [03:05] <MikeSmith> who cares about x-browser compat?
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  197. # [03:12] <TabAtkins> Dammit, it looks like my problem is float accuracy. >_<
  198. # [03:12] <TabAtkins> I hate it when that happens.
  199. # [03:13] <TabAtkins> I guess losing about 8 bits of accuracy when juggling white pixels is significant here.
  200. # [03:16] <TabAtkins> Yay, fixed!
  201. # [03:16] <TabAtkins> Woo!
  202. # [03:17] <TabAtkins> (By cheating - when I'm on the white side, I invert pixel values so the calculations have the same accuracy as the white side.)
  203. # [03:17] <boblet> MikeSmith: not browser makers when doing tech demos, that’s fer sure
  204. # [03:17] <MikeSmith> heh
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  212. # [03:25] <Arimil> Is it true that in html5 you don't use self closing tags? For example <br /> is just <br>
  213. # [03:25] <TabAtkins> Yes, that was the original syntax for void element (those without end tags). XML invented the <br/> syntax.
  214. # [03:25] <variable> Arimil, in the non-XML version: yes
  215. # [03:26] <TabAtkins> So, as long as you're using the HTML serialization of HTML, yes. If you're using the XML serialization, no.
  216. # [03:26] <Arimil> OK, I'm not using XML serialization. Thanks gotta fix that.
  217. # [03:27] <variable> Arimil, IIRC it doesn't actually matter in the non XML version. IE they both work
  218. # [03:27] <TabAtkins> In the HTML serialization you're *allowed* to use the <br/> syntax on void elements. (You can't use it on normal elements that just happen to be empty - <div/> in the HTML serialization is just treated as a <div> open tag).
  219. # [03:28] <variable> TabAtkins, in the XML serialization <div/> is counted as having an open and a closed tag ?
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  221. # [03:28] <TabAtkins> variable: Yes.
  222. # [03:29] <TabAtkins> In XML, <div/> is the same as <div></div>.
  223. # [03:29] <Arimil> Good to know although I most likely wont use it. :p
  224. # [03:30] <variable> Someone really needs to write a "html5 for the web author" document.
  225. # [03:30] <Arimil> I've never liked xml for some reason.
  226. # [03:30] <Arimil> I avoid it whenever possible.
  227. # [03:30] <TabAtkins> Good idea in general.
  228. # [03:31] <variable> Arimil, XML is perfectly fine for a particular type of content. The problem comes when people try to use XML for a type of content it isn't made for
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  230. # [03:31] <variable> XML is great when you have an exact format with specific data that must be sent with particular datatypes
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  232. # [03:32] <variable> its horid for dyamic loosly formed content like HTML
  233. # [03:32] <Arimil> variable: I believe your referring to visual studio using it to replace ini?
  234. # [03:32] <TabAtkins> XML isn't great even for that - too many meaningless restrictions that bork the document if you mess them up.
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  236. # [03:33] <variable> Arimil, nope: my sole use for XML ever was for writing an FAQ. I had a series of Sections, questions, and answers
  237. # [03:33] <variable> and I used XSLT to convert it to HTML
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  239. # [03:36] <Arimil> variable: *shrug* It's a good use of XML although like I said I really hate XML and I would have looked for another way
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  253. # [05:17] <micheil> has anybody tested Safari 5 for websocket draft75 compliance?
  254. # [05:18] <micheil> I'm noticing that safari will close connections after N seconds
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  258. # [05:25] <micheil> where N seconds is 120
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  265. # [05:54] <MikeSmithX> it occurs to me that a problem with the way many people conceive Web architecture is is that they assume that resources at URIs are not really doing much of anything at all
  266. # [05:54] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  267. # [05:54] <MikeSmith> but are instead just waiting to be requested
  268. # [05:55] * MikeSmith is reading through some Web-related papers submitted for the Internet of Things 2010 conference
  269. # [05:56] <MikeSmith> or in other terms, most discussions about Web architecture doesn't seem to involve much thought about all the interesting events that could be occurring for a resource at a particular URI
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  281. # [06:54] <micheil> looks like the timeout issue with safari is due to the server, but it does raise another issue, on close, safari doesn't send a FIN packet back
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  288. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> I guess I would have expected AtomPub to have some kind of eventing model as its conceptual basis
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  300. # [08:26] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  301. # [08:26] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  308. # [08:43] <Hixie> variable: in theory lachy is writing one - http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/
  309. # [08:43] <Hixie> variable: it's been lacking attention though
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  313. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> http://diveintohtml5.org/ does a pretty good job too
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  316. # [09:01] * MikeSmith needs to buy copies of http://books.alistapart.com/product/html5-for-web-designers and http://introducinghtml5.com/ as well
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  325. # [09:12] <JonathanNeal> Bam!
  326. # [09:12] <JonathanNeal> Liferay 6 http://sourceforge.net/projects/lportal/files/Liferay%20Portal/6.0.3/liferay-portal-tomcat-6.0.3.zip/download
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  331. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: hey wow
  332. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> you work on Liferay, right?
  333. # [09:18] <JonathanNeal> I do.
  334. # [09:18] <JonathanNeal> And we're an HTML5 toting gang now.
  335. # [09:18] * JonathanNeal does the HTML5 gang sign.
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  338. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: I think some people outside would say that the HTML5 gang seems to be using the middle finger as its sign
  339. # [09:21] <JonathanNeal> How's that?
  340. # [09:21] <JonathanNeal> Lemme see if I can get some of my roommates to do the html5 gang sign.
  341. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> given the pioneering work that Bruce Lawson and Remy Sharp have done in this area, it seems pretty clear that the HTML5 gang sign needs to involve some partial nudity
  342. # [09:24] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@74.125.59.65)
  343. # [09:27] <Workshiva> Clearly the gang sign is to make a '5' with your fingers
  344. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> I think it should just be holding up one five-fingered hand
  345. # [09:29] <JonathanNeal> okay lemme try something
  346. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> but in the form of an eagle claw
  347. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> but if you have only 4 fingers, you can only make the HTML4 gang sign
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  357. # [09:50] <JonathanNeal> okay i've got it. html5 gang sign.
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  362. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> reading some of these paper submissions for Internet of Things 2010, I'm getting an education about the difference between using HTTP as a just a transport protocol, and using it as an application protocol
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  369. # [10:13] <JonathanNeal> http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-gang-sign/
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  371. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> ah JonathanNeal
  372. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> you are brilliant, man
  373. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> can I tweet this?
  374. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> this is solid gold
  375. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> complete with the background music and everything
  376. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> "2 plus 3 equals 5"
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  378. # [10:23] <ako> <meta charset="UTF-8" /> <- that's ok now?
  379. # [10:23] <ako> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"/>
  380. # [10:23] <ako> <- no need for that mess anymore?
  381. # [10:24] * ako fails at pasting
  382. # [10:24] <annevk> right
  383. # [10:24] <ako> excellent
  384. # [10:24] <ako> that's something i can actually remember :>
  385. # [10:24] <annevk> you can even do <meta charset=utf-8>
  386. # [10:25] <ako> eh... i won't go that far
  387. # [10:25] <ako> <:
  388. # [10:25] <zcorpan_> you can even do <meta utf-8>
  389. # [10:25] <annevk> zcorpan_, uh?
  390. # [10:25] <zcorpan_> j/k
  391. # [10:26] <annevk> too early :/
  392. # [10:26] <annevk> JonathanNeal, lol
  393. # [10:26] <annevk> JonathanNeal, we should have you guys at Standards Suck :)
  394. # [10:29] <Workshiva> JonathanNeal: Your video is inaccessible to people without speakers :<
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  396. # [10:30] <zcorpan_> add websrt captions in a <track>
  397. # [10:32] <ako> mhmh... does track allow lang attributes? if so, how do you switch between different languages?
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  399. # [10:33] <zcorpan_> there's srclang
  400. # [10:36] <JonathanNeal> How do you expect me to compensate for that, Workshiva?
  401. # [10:36] <ako> so, could i use several video files with different audio tracks and also several subtitle tracks which also use different languages?
  402. # [10:37] <ako> for example the media splitter i'm using with my regular stand alone player allows me to define priorities for this stuff
  403. # [10:38] <ako> well, it's of course an implementation detail, but do the specs point out that one should keep this in mind?
  404. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> hendry: you're switching jobs and moving to London?
  405. # [10:39] <hendry> MikeSmith: yup
  406. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> switching jobs = moving to different company?
  407. # [10:40] <hendry> MikeSmith: yes, contracting for Vodafone
  408. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> wow
  409. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> great news
  410. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> working with anybody I know?
  411. # [10:40] <hendry> MikeSmith: I think I am working on WAC stuff with Ricardo
  412. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> cool
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  414. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> I see http://twitter.com/kaihendry/status/18518431813 now
  415. # [10:41] <hendry> MikeSmith: of course DKA is around. I'm sure to harass him
  416. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> yeah
  417. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> give that dude a hard time
  418. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> he deserves it
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  420. # [10:42] <annevk> ako, it's not a single video with multiple audio tracks?
  421. # [10:43] <annevk> ako, but there's nothing specific for that case at the moment afaik
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  447. # [11:36] <hsivonen> hendry: what's JIL/WAC?
  448. # [11:37] <hendry> hsivonen: it's a JIL/BONDI conversion, now collectively called WAC http://www.wholesaleappcommunity.com
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  450. # [11:39] <hsivonen> hendry: ok
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  452. # [11:41] <hendry> It's still not finalised tbh. Though I hope it will all come together.
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  464. # [12:29] <jgraham> Argh. I really wish javascript had named parameters
  465. # [12:30] <Workshiva> Named parameters?
  466. # [12:30] <jgraham> like foo(bar=baz)
  467. # [12:30] <jgraham> named arguments maybe
  468. # [12:30] <hsivonen> jgraham: should be easy enough to pass an object with all the named stuff inside
  469. # [12:30] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yeah, that is one possibility
  470. # [12:31] <jgraham> In fact I am already using that possibility
  471. # [12:31] <jgraham> But...
  472. # [12:31] <Workshiva> Or toString the function reference and extract the parameter names, then create an array with the right order and apply
  473. # [12:31] <Workshiva> :D
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  475. # [12:31] <jgraham> Anyway, back in the land of the sane...
  476. # [12:31] <jgraham> I have a pair of functions
  477. # [12:32] <jgraham> Well a function and a method
  478. # [12:32] <jgraham> the function looks like test(func, name, properties)
  479. # [12:33] <jgraham> the methos looks like test.step(func)
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  481. # [12:33] <jgraham> I have now realised I should make it possible to change the this object that is used to call func
  482. # [12:33] <jgraham> so I can have the caller pass in a this object
  483. # [12:34] <jgraham> for Test.step that is fine: test.step(func, this_obj)
  484. # [12:34] <jgraham> but what to do for test()?
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  487. # [12:34] <jgraham> The logical place to put the parameter would be second test(func, this_obj, name, properties)
  488. # [12:35] <jgraham> But the common case is to use the global scope
  489. # [12:35] <jgraham> so you would always have to pass undefined
  490. # [12:36] <jgraham> Which would be bad
  491. # [12:36] <jgraham> Putting it after name would give a weird order and mean you had to pass undefined if you want to set properties
  492. # [12:37] <annevk> can't you check whether it is the global scope within test?
  493. # [12:37] <jgraham> Whether what is the global scope?
  494. # [12:38] <annevk> this?
  495. # [12:38] <Philip`> Do test(func, name, properties) and test_with_this(func, this_obj, name, properties)
  496. # [12:38] <annevk> is there a scenario where you need test rather than test_async btw with this working?
  497. # [12:39] <jgraham> annevk: test() is just for covenience because it causes the test to be run immediately
  498. # [12:39] <jgraham> seems useful
  499. # [12:39] <jgraham> Philip`: Ugly but workable
  500. # [12:39] <jgraham> I could typecheck the second parameter of course
  501. # [12:39] <jgraham> That would be the jQuery way
  502. # [12:39] <jgraham> But...
  503. # [12:40] <Philip`> Or this_obj.apply(func, ...) (or whatever the syntax is) to use the normal language facilities for changing this
  504. # [12:40] <annevk> jgraham, it's useful, but do you need "this" working when test is used?
  505. # [12:40] <Philip`> s/func/test/
  506. # [12:40] <jgraham> annevk: I thought you were the one with the use case :)
  507. # [12:40] <annevk> jgraham, my use case is only for test_async
  508. # [12:41] <jgraham> annevk: Seems odd to let it work in one case but not the other
  509. # [12:41] <jgraham> But maybe that is actually good to enfore
  510. # [12:41] <jgraham> *enforce
  511. # [12:41] <annevk> testing "this" is always needed in a callback... never really needed it elsewhere in usual tests
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  513. # [12:42] <annevk> i mean, I can't remember having used it in some kind of sync variant
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  515. # [12:42] <jgraham> OK I will take the simple solution of not solving the problem and calling it a feature
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  517. # [12:42] <annevk> also, couldn't I use
  518. # [12:43] <annevk> test.step(function(this) { ... }) ?
  519. # [12:43] <jgraham> Yeah you could
  520. # [12:44] <jgraham> It feels nicer to optionally run the function in the expected scope though
  521. # [12:44] <annevk> actually, how would I then access it?
  522. # [12:44] <annevk> yeah, if you can do that and tell me how to make it work
  523. # [12:44] <jgraham> It's all fine
  524. # [12:44] * jgraham notices he allowed extra arguments to step() get passed to the function
  525. # [12:44] <annevk> so you solve it on your side?
  526. # [12:45] <jgraham> That seems unnecessary...
  527. # [12:45] <annevk> so what do I do?
  528. # [12:45] <jgraham> annevk: Do test.step(function(){}, this)
  529. # [12:45] <karlcow> fresh redesign of Zappos http://www.zappos.com/ by HappyCog http://happycog.com/create/zappos/
  530. # [12:45] <karlcow> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zappos.com%2F&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0
  531. # [12:45] <karlcow> using html5 doctype, but already invalid.
  532. # [12:46] <annevk> jgraham, and then the bit between {} can use this without problems?
  533. # [12:46] <jgraham> Yeah, I think so
  534. # [12:48] <annevk> so I have test.step(function() { assert_equals("data", e.data); this.close() }, this)
  535. # [12:51] <jgraham> Yes
  536. # [12:51] <jgraham> Although the step is run synchronously
  537. # [12:51] <annevk> and if the listener is inlined it is fine right?
  538. # [12:51] <jgraham> so you can just close after the test.step rather than in the test function
  539. # [12:52] <jgraham> listener?
  540. # [12:53] <annevk> test.step(function() { obj.onmessage = function() { test.step(function() {}) } }) or some such
  541. # [12:54] <annevk> and a test.done() after the second test.step()
  542. # [12:54] <jgraham> Yeah that should be fine I think
  543. # [12:54] <jgraham> Hard to read all on one line in irc
  544. # [12:54] <annevk> lots of braces
  545. # [12:54] <annevk> hard to type too
  546. # [12:55] <annevk> all on one line
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  548. # [12:56] <annevk> jgraham, I need assert_error() or some such for something that should not be reached
  549. # [12:57] <jgraham> annevk: Yeah, known bug. Will work on it next
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  589. # [15:14] <zcorpan_> http://css.dzone.com/articles/python-based-html5lib-firefoxs
  590. # [15:16] <Philip`> "html5lib [...] has gone from version 0.1 to 0.9" - wow, a nine times improvement!
  591. # [15:17] <Philip`> Should have started at version 0.01 then it'd seem even more impressive
  592. # [15:18] <zcorpan_> you should bump the version number with an order of magnitude for each new version
  593. # [15:19] <Philip`> Version 1e1, 1e2, 1e3, etc?
  594. # [15:19] <jgraham> Um, we are on version 0.90
  595. # [15:19] <jgraham> That is 10x larger than 0.9
  596. # [15:19] <Workshiva> Yeah, get it right
  597. # [15:19] <boblet> MikeSmithX: I got a review copy of HTML5 for Web Designers — will bring it next week
  598. # [15:20] <boblet> JonathanNeal MikeSmithX wish I’d been here earlier. respekt, mah homies
  599. # [15:22] <boblet> hey anyone know where the ‘HTML5 = 900 pages’ thing came from? trying to fact-check and I only get 519 pages (normal view)
  600. # [15:22] <Workshiva> Before all the splits?
  601. # [15:22] <annevk> could be the PDF version of the spec
  602. # [15:22] <Philip`> PDF?
  603. # [15:23] <Philip`> It's an entirely meaningless number anyway
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  605. # [15:23] <boblet> Workshiva: woah didn’t realise so much had been split off
  606. # [15:23] <boblet> annevk: there’s a pdf version!? holy crap the cabal roolz
  607. # [15:23] <Philip`> Only slightly less meaningless than counting megabytes
  608. # [15:23] <Workshiva> Let's bikeshed over exactly how meaningless it is
  609. # [15:23] <jgraham> It's mreo meaningless than counting Mb
  610. # [15:23] <jgraham> *more
  611. # [15:24] <jgraham> Because Mb directly affect load speed
  612. # [15:24] <boblet> Philip`: true, but would like to point out how meaningless seeing as it’s being used in advertising
  613. # [15:24] <zcorpan_> but less meaningless than counting cows
  614. # [15:24] <jgraham> It is even more meaningless than counting DOM nodes
  615. # [15:24] <Philip`> jgraham: Not really, because adding lots of whitespace would make it bigger but it'd probably download in the same time because of gzip
  616. # [15:24] <jgraham> Philip`: Pretend I mean gzipped megabytes
  617. # [15:25] <Philip`> Counting crows?
  618. # [15:25] <Philip`> Oh, cows
  619. # [15:25] <boblet> the text-only version should be linked in there too
  620. # [15:26] <Philip`> jgraham: That sounds like it's getting closer to measuring the entropy of the document, which is probably a more meaningful measure
  621. # [15:26] <jgraham> yes
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  623. # [15:28] <boblet> provided US letter one is 745 pages. huh — doing a print to pdf in Chrome results in the content only taking 2/3 the width of the page, with smaller text, and clocks in at 519 pages
  624. # [15:28] <boblet> but is double the official one’s size
  625. # [15:29] <boblet> I guess Prince does a good job
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  631. # [15:47] <boblet> oof, that’s somewhat embarrassing. “The HTML5 spec is 900 pages and hard to read. HTML5 for Web Designers is 85 pages and fun to read”. Current spec is 745 pages. *Author View* spec is ~ 386 pages.
  632. # [15:48] <boblet> I think the polite term for that is “creative copywriting”
  633. # [15:48] <jgraham> boblet: Presumably the WHATWG version is longer?
  634. # [15:48] <nimbupani> boblet: who is saying that?
  635. # [15:48] <Workshiva> We don't do "polite" here :P
  636. # [15:48] <boblet> jgraham: those figures are from whatwg version
  637. # [15:48] <jgraham> Oh
  638. # [15:48] <jgraham> complete.html?
  639. # [15:49] <jgraham> :)
  640. # [15:49] <boblet> nimbupani: http://books.alistapart.com/
  641. # [15:49] <nimbupani> that is sad :(
  642. # [15:49] <boblet> well it was one of those gobsmack figures like the 2022 completion date that stuck
  643. # [15:50] <nimbupani> yeah. simple view is not necessarily a good idea :*
  644. # [15:50] <nimbupani> :(
  645. # [15:50] <boblet> just sad that it’s being used (unintentionally or not) in sales
  646. # [15:50] <nimbupani> exactly.
  647. # [15:50] <boblet> gotta admit, it makes for great copy
  648. # [15:51] <nimbupani> i think it trivializes the whole spec.
  649. # [15:51] <boblet> although I’d call bs on the hard to read part — whoever wrote that hasn’t read semweb specs (which are obviously written for a higher life form than I)
  650. # [15:52] <miketaylr> i think the 900 number came from the super friends
  651. # [15:52] <boblet> nimbupani: preeeeecisely. longer is oh so much better, given the spec is uniformly terse
  652. # [15:52] <nimbupani> miketaylr: not surprising :P
  653. # [15:52] <boblet> miketaylr: that’d figure. the spec prolly was that big back then before stuff got split off, as Workshiva was saying
  654. # [15:53] <miketaylr> mmmhmm
  655. # [15:53] <boblet> but all the stuff split off is completely outside the topic scope of “…for web designers”
  656. # [15:54] <boblet> (PDF still includes Microdata, and that has a 1 sentence mention)
  657. # [15:54] <zcorpan_> i think hixie changed the font size and the page margins to reduce the number of pages when people were talking about how many pages it was
  658. # [15:54] <miketaylr> heh, http://twitter.com/michai/status/13369668370 points to html5 for designers
  659. # [15:55] <zcorpan_> it seems like doing print preview on complete.html in chrome crashes chrome
  660. # [15:55] <Philip`> I've noticed far fewer criticisms of the size of the HTML5 spec than of OOXML
  661. # [15:55] <miketaylr> aha, found it
  662. # [15:55] <miketaylr> http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/09/07/html5-and-you/
  663. # [15:56] <miketaylr> boblet: ^^
  664. # [15:57] <boblet> miketaylr: thanks — will badger the king ;)
  665. # [15:57] <miketaylr> heh
  666. # [15:57] <miketaylr> looks like brucel perpepuates the myth here as well: http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2010/introducing-html5-almost-in-the-can/
  667. # [15:58] <boblet> man, gonna have to put my badger suit on at this rate
  668. # [15:59] <boblet> woah — 990 pages to 506 pages just based on print style changes? Hixie musta had it set at double leading or something
  669. # [16:00] <Philip`> You should count A4 pages, rather than whatever crazy non-metric sizes are used in the US
  670. # [16:00] <boblet> Philip`: lol
  671. # [16:01] <boblet> was assuming whoever came up with the 900 page figure would have US letter as their default ;-)
  672. # [16:01] <boblet> seems i was prolly right too
  673. # [16:02] <Philip`> How many pages are taken up by the character references table?
  674. # [16:03] <Philip`> Hmm, Firefox tries to put it on 3 pages
  675. # [16:03] <Philip`> which is clearly not quite right
  676. # [16:04] <boblet> Philip`: only about 8, they’re pretty tiny
  677. # [16:05] <Philip`> Oh
  678. # [16:08] <hsivonen> Philip`: OOXML should be longer. There are some hand-wavy parts about imitating the behaviors of legacy software
  679. # [16:08] <hsivonen> (or at least were in the ECMA version. I haven't reviewed the ISO version.)
  680. # [16:11] <Philip`> When I looked at OOXML briefly, it seemed to be a lot of schemas and datatype definitions and examples, and not much that's equivalent to UA requirements
  681. # [16:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: well, the length argument was bad anyway, because ODF is even vaguer on processing
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  683. # [16:14] <Philip`> Seems like most technical complaints against OOXML can apply to ODF too
  684. # [16:18] <Philip`> (Clearly we should just use Knuth's new XML-based LaTeX for word processing)
  685. # [16:25] <boblet> the print styles for HTML5 are fubar in Chrome. checking in FF now
  686. # [16:26] <boblet> (fubar = perfectly readable, but only using half the page width and in a smaller font than official)
  687. # [16:26] <boblet> one way to get page count down I guess :)
  688. # [16:28] <boblet> or I would if it’d stop beachballing :/
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  690. # [16:32] * hsivonen recommends using Prince for printing the spec
  691. # [16:33] <hsivonen> does any browser implement page number counters in generated content?
  692. # [16:35] <boblet> hsivonen: Webkit has been working on implementing print-related CSS, but I don’t know how far they are along
  693. # [16:35] <boblet> yeah I probably should install Prince huh
  694. # [16:36] <boblet> Firefox is currently stuck with a completely white modal pane that came down from under the page title. wonder what it’s meant to contain
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  698. # [16:50] <fagan> Is what im talking about on the list on topic?
  699. # [16:50] <fagan> I hope it is
  700. # [16:50] <fagan> its still under the youtube problems with the video tag discussion I hope
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  714. # [17:08] <JonathanNeal> Goodmorning!
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  721. # [17:24] <OmerSd> Hi!
  722. # [17:25] <JonathanNeal> Hi^
  723. # [17:25] <boblet> JonathanNeal: I’m joining your gang yo
  724. # [17:25] <boblet> all we need is one more MikeSmithXX and we’ll get the nudie version
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  726. # [17:25] <JonathanNeal> boblet, oh you heard?
  727. # [17:26] <JonathanNeal> We gotta collect all the pictures.
  728. # [17:26] <JonathanNeal> Take a picture doing the sign
  729. # [17:26] <JonathanNeal> I'll add it to the page.
  730. # [17:26] <boblet> JonathanNeal: tweeted yo, we be forming a posse
  731. # [17:26] <OmerSd> Have some way change to full screen mode in js?
  732. # [17:26] <JonathanNeal> oh it got tweeted, damn, now the url is stuck on my sandbox :P
  733. # [17:27] <boblet> lols — redirects are the future
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  735. # [17:27] <boblet> (or your future)
  736. # [17:27] <boblet> OmerSd: standard JS screen resizing code should work fine with HTML5, but a bigger question would be … why would you want to do that?
  737. # [17:27] <JonathanNeal> I guess so.
  738. # [17:28] <boblet> orz, I thought it was prime-time :D
  739. # [17:28] <OmerSd> i wanna make a web appliction
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  741. # [17:28] <JonathanNeal> HTML5, doctype no, gang sign yes.
  742. # [17:28] <boblet> OmerSd: that’s not a good reason. if Gmail resized my browser every time I used it, I’d stop using it
  743. # [17:29] <OmerSd> I'll do a option to full screen
  744. # [17:29] <boblet> OmerSd: having a button to make the browser window full size may be a nice feature in some situations, but I’d do some user testing before making it the default
  745. # [17:29] <boblet> OmerSd: oh ok :)
  746. # [17:30] <OmerSd> :)
  747. # [17:30] <boblet> OmerSd: well I’ve got no idea but here’s the first thing that came up in Google: http://www.pbdr.com/jscript/windfull.htm
  748. # [17:31] <OmerSd> Thanks :)
  749. # [17:32] <boblet> for anyone interested in PDF size, the official A4 version was 707 pages, a full version I made with Prince was 709 pages (slightly different copy), and an author vide version clocked in at 378 pages.
  750. # [17:32] <boblet> I officially call bullshit on both parts of “The HTML5 spec is 900 pages and hard to read.”
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  752. # [17:34] <OmerSd> How i can calucate the maximum size that the user can see in the document(without full screen)?
  753. # [17:34] <Philip`> boblet: Hmm, you think it's not hard to read?
  754. # [17:35] <boblet> Philip`: I think parts of it are still confusing, but the author view isn’t in general no
  755. # [17:36] <boblet> Philip`: of course this could just be in comparison to typical W3C specs
  756. # [17:37] <boblet> Philip`: it doesn’t have Jeremy’s witty turn of speech certainly, but hard to read is an exaggeration
  757. # [17:37] * Philip` has been reading it for three years and still thinks it's hard to read :-)
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  759. # [17:37] <Philip`> though maybe that's because I mostly read the non-author bits
  760. # [17:38] <boblet> Philip`: I did have that as a caveat :P the implementor bits seem brutally precise, but I have no idea what they actually mean most of the time
  761. # [17:38] <boblet> it’s lucky for the interwebs I am an author not an implementor
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  766. # [17:57] <OmerSd> Have some api spec for html5 like javadoc?
  767. # [17:58] <ako> the biggest problem with that is that the current specs aren't very well suited for automatic generation
  768. # [17:59] <boblet> OmerSd: api specs are in the HTML5 spec for basic things http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/
  769. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: I don't see quite how the H is formed in the gang sign.
  770. # [18:00] <boblet> OmerSd: other things that have been split out like Web Sockets are in different specs: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#What_are_the_various_versions_of_the_spec.3F
  771. # [18:00] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, the 3 and the 2 put together make an h
  772. # [18:00] <JonathanNeal> they also make a t, the 3 forms the m
  773. # [18:00] <JonathanNeal> and any of them could be the l.
  774. # [18:00] <boblet> TabAtkins: well you’re obviously not eligible for the posse
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  776. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Oh, I see it now.
  777. # [18:01] <miketaylr> thuglife is hard.
  778. # [18:01] <TabAtkins> The problem is too many thugs, not enough signs to throw.
  779. # [18:02] <boblet> miketaylr: too funny
  780. # [18:02] <miketaylr> :)
  781. # [18:03] <JonathanNeal> Updated: http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-gang-sign/
  782. # [18:04] <boblet> JonathanNeal: btw, your buddy making the peace sign with the palm in? that’s called “the fingers” in Oz & NZ (UK too?) and is equivalent to flippin the bird
  783. # [18:04] <JonathanNeal> boblet, ut oh.
  784. # [18:04] <boblet> heh, it’s cool :)
  785. # [18:04] <JonathanNeal> Maybe I'll update the video tonight.
  786. # [18:04] <boblet> it’s a gang sign instructional video after all
  787. # [18:04] <boblet> the guy’s expression matches perfectly too
  788. # [18:05] <TabAtkins> boblet: Interesting. It's just ordinary sign for when you're ready to chillax while getting krunk in the US.
  789. # [18:06] <boblet> yeah, apparently one of the Bushes was waving like that from his limo when he visited Oz. went down a treat ;-)
  790. # [18:06] <boblet> prolly Dubya, would be in keeping with general foreign policy
  791. # [18:06] <TabAtkins> Clearly Bush was getting krunk in his limo, all knocking back 40s with his bitches.
  792. # [18:07] <boblet> hahaha, clearly
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  800. # [18:15] <Philip`> boblet: (UK too)
  801. # [18:15] <Philip`> boblet: (See e.g. http://news.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A11047132)
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  806. # [18:30] <boblet> har http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign#V_sign_as_an_insult
  807. # [18:30] <boblet> a little different to what I remembered, but still very krunk
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  813. # [18:35] <boblet> MikeSmithXX: btw posted you a bunch of HTML5Doctor flowcharts today. now that I think about it I coulda given them to you next week. oh well. distribute with gay abandon
  814. # [18:35] <boblet> nn
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  829. # [19:09] <paul_irish> TabAtkins: you wanna get a tag team gang sign pic?
  830. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> paul_irish: Let's rock this.
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  832. # [19:14] <JonathanNeal> yeaaaa
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  836. # [19:24] <JonathanNeal> quite a few submissions.
  837. # [19:26] <TabAtkins> Hehe. Me + paul_irish clearly the most attractive of the bunch.
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  839. # [19:28] <paul_irish> +1
  840. # [19:29] <miketaylr> jeeze thanks
  841. # [19:37] <TabAtkins> Sorry, miketaylr, but you just can't compete with the raw sexual attraction we pump out.
  842. # [19:37] <miketaylr> ahahah
  843. # [19:37] * miketaylr concedes
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  859. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> Man, the box model's subtleties are complicated.
  860. # [20:36] <JonathanNeal_> fix it, TabAtkins
  861. # [20:36] <ojan> TabAtkins: ?
  862. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> Nah, the things I'm banging on can't be "fixed" because they're an integral part of the web at this point, and more or less make sense anyway.
  863. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> ojan: Working on issue 138, involving what happens when floats and blocks are children of a relpos inline.
  864. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> floats and blocks act differently here.
  865. # [20:37] <ojan> TabAtkins: fun
  866. # [20:38] <TabAtkins> It makes sense, though. Floats position themselves solely based on their containing block (and other floats with the same CB), and the inline doesn't form a containing block for it.
  867. # [20:38] <TabAtkins> So the float doesn't move with the inline when it gets relpos'd, but the block does.
  868. # [20:38] <ojan> TabAtkins: yuck.
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  870. # [20:44] <TabAtkins> ojan: Yuck indeed. Floats suck in *so many different ways*. I can't help but think we'd have been better off from the beginning if we'd just defined a way for abspos elements to intrude and push text around them.
  871. # [20:45] <TabAtkins> That would have prevented the worst abuses of float-based layouts, too.
  872. # [20:46] <ojan> TabAtkins: totally.
  873. # [20:46] <ojan> TabAtkins: that could still be worth doing.
  874. # [20:46] <TabAtkins> Pretty sure MS has some custom stuff doing that already.
  875. # [20:46] <TabAtkins> Don't remember if that was some vendor-specific public stuff, or a private build I saw.
  876. # [20:47] * TabAtkins notes that it would also probably have increased the drive to make abspos more powerful.
  877. # [20:47] <TabAtkins> Now I just need a time machine. First stop, Ben Franklin. Second stop, Hakon and Bert in the 90s.
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  879. # [20:52] <Philip`> Remember to put a battery in Ben's kite so it'll get recharged and then use it to power the Chron-O-John
  880. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> Will do. That's a convenient time to drop in anyway, since I'll be visiting him about his charge convention.
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  888. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> Question: it appears that Chrome's implementation, at least, of <canvas> only permits integers in the CanvasPixelArray object of ImageData, and floors the value upon assigning a float. I can't find anything in particular to support that in the spec. Is there?
  889. # [21:37] <Philip`> setter void (in unsigned long index, in octet value);
  890. # [21:38] <Philip`> See WebIDL for conversions to octet
  891. # [21:38] <TabAtkins> Ah, octet. Interesting.
  892. # [21:38] <TabAtkins> That would explain some of my errors, then.
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  894. # [21:45] <TabAtkins> Excellent. Switching over to using a number for my intermediate calculations and then assigning to the ImageData at the end fixed everything.
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  910. # [22:48] * Parts: aaronpk (~aaron@c-24-21-161-141.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
  911. # [22:50] * Joins: wm3|lunch (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  912. # [22:51] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
  913. # [22:51] <JonathanNeal_> sup thugs
  914. # [22:52] <JonathanNeal_> html5 gangstas
  915. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> Yo.
  916. # [22:54] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@109.96.234.221) (Quit: .)
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  922. # [23:07] * wm3|lunch is now known as workmad3
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  937. # Session Close: Sat Jul 17 00:00:00 2010

The end :)