/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-07-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jul 19 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] <micheil> yeah, alright
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  25. # [02:49] <Cheery> Now I have an easy-to-use websocket library written in python
  26. # [02:49] <Cheery> http://hg.boxbase.org/websocket
  27. # [02:51] <Cheery> I'll yet write a simple chat using that program.
  28. # [02:51] <Cheery> (there's small example around though)
  29. # [02:52] <Cheery> I've got no issue -listing system, send them to my email.
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  37. # [03:42] <GPHemsley> This might be of interest to the folks in here: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s111-3304
  38. # [03:44] <MikeSmithX> "Sets forth provisions concerning closed captioning decoder and video description capability, user interfaces, and video programming guides and menus."
  39. # [03:44] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  40. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> Cheery: very cool to see you got the websocket library written
  41. # [03:45] <Cheery> I did already a little chat server on top of it.
  42. # [03:46] <Cheery> little hacky though. :/
  43. # [03:46] <Cheery> (could do a better one eventually. ^^)
  44. # [03:48] <Cheery> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/239236
  45. # [03:48] <Cheery> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/239237
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  47. # [03:51] <Cheery> MikeSmith: yeah. though it could be easier you know.
  48. # [03:51] <Cheery> likely have to provide alternative listener for non-websocket activity
  49. # [03:52] <Cheery> there's one thing I don't understand.
  50. # [03:52] <Cheery> why do we write our software backwards compatible?
  51. # [03:53] <Cheery> in a way that we'll gather little of complexity from older systems while moving to newer ones.
  52. # [03:53] <Cheery> obviously there's things that need to stay like they are, because we use them too much.
  53. # [03:54] <Cheery> like networking stack.
  54. # [03:54] <Cheery> or filesystems and filehandles
  55. # [03:54] <Cheery> and by part those aren't even bad, they make software simpler
  56. # [03:55] <Cheery> but then there's things like windows and X11
  57. # [03:55] <Cheery> or python
  58. # [03:55] <Cheery> or javascript
  59. # [03:55] <Cheery> about in 3 years opengl joins the club.
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  61. # [03:57] <Cheery> browser is like an another operating system in our desktops.
  62. # [03:58] <Cheery> about everyone knew that two years ago.
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  64. # [04:01] <Cheery> only move there's been is the chrome OS
  65. # [04:04] <Cheery> it's even sillier that the major software industries sit in the shit like they'd be glued into it.
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  68. # [04:05] <Cheery> or then they introduce things that just become the next silly fadshit of the future.
  69. # [04:05] <Cheery> like MS silverlight
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  72. # [04:06] <Cheery> though maybe it's meant that way.
  73. # [04:07] <Cheery> closed source software doesn't have place in a world that requires better performing software every day instead of tens of years.
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  85. # [05:30] <gsnedders> When doing IPC in Perl, is using SIGALRM within an eval the nicest way to do timeouts?
  86. # [05:40] <boblet> Hixie & foolip: Thinking about the magic n optimisation etc in µF hCard, I think the microdata vcard vocabulary shouldn’t use http://microformats.org/profile/hcard as it’s vocabulary URL if it differs from hCard
  87. # [05:42] <boblet> I’d assume given the microformats.org url that microdata vcard would be 1:1 with hcard (rather than vcard) and include hCard changes to vcard. hopefully this will be resolved with hCard 1.0.1
  88. # [05:44] <boblet> in the meantime seeing as the vocabulary is included mainly as an example of writing a microdata vocabulary, it might be worthwhile to include hCard’s quirks to demonstrate they can be accommodated. that or changing the itemtype URL and other hcard references…
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  139. # [10:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: is the lack of cache-control support in meta pragmas by design?
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  194. # [13:29] <phrearch> hi
  195. # [13:29] <phrearch> im using websockets now for im, but i wonder whether it would be faster to do all json related stuff over websockets
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  197. # [13:29] <phrearch> currently, page-loading in this webportal is still done with xhr
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  208. # [14:08] * Joins: Cheery (~cheery@a88-113-49-213.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  209. # [14:09] <Cheery> ookay. I've got a websocket-powered chat up in: http://boxbase.org/fun/simplechat/
  210. # [14:09] <micheil> neat
  211. # [14:09] <Cheery> going to remove it in few hours though.
  212. # [14:09] <micheil> server?
  213. # [14:09] <Cheery> micheil: server?
  214. # [14:09] <micheil> Cheery: is it a custom server implementation, or a library?
  215. # [14:10] <micheil> also, is it only doing draft76?
  216. # [14:10] <Cheery> http://hg.boxbase.org/websocket
  217. # [14:10] <hsivonen> Cheery: doesn't work for me on Firefox trunk
  218. # [14:11] * Joins: cedricv_ (~cedric@202.152.243.73)
  219. # [14:11] <Cheery> hsivonen: what's your IP?
  220. # [14:11] <hsivonen> Cheery: looks like you've forgotten a reference to 'console' to production code
  221. # [14:11] <micheil> it's draft 76 only.
  222. # [14:11] <micheil> so, people using Safari 5 will not be able to connect
  223. # [14:12] * Joins: hallvors (~hallvord@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  224. # [14:12] <zcorpan_> Cheery: doesn't work for me either
  225. # [14:12] <Cheery> hmm..
  226. # [14:12] <zcorpan_> hmm works in chrome dev
  227. # [14:12] <zcorpan_> but not in firefox or opera (internal)
  228. # [14:12] <hsivonen> IIRC, the console object exists in WebKit-based browsers
  229. # [14:13] <micheil> zcorpan_: which version of websockets does opera support?
  230. # [14:13] <hsivonen> but not in Firefox (without Firebug)
  231. # [14:13] <jgraham> Cheery: addEventListener needs 3 parameters
  232. # [14:13] <zcorpan_> actually i can receive messages in opera but not send
  233. # [14:13] <zcorpan_> micheil: 76
  234. # [14:13] <micheil> zcorpan_: I'd like to update my table of browser support, if possible.
  235. # [14:13] * Quits: cedricv (~cedric@202.152.243.73) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  236. # [14:13] <Cheery> jgraham: oh yeah.. forgotten. fixing ^^
  237. # [14:13] <micheil> zcorpan_: can I place it here: http://wiki.github.com/miksago/node-websocket-server/browser-support ?
  238. # [14:14] <zcorpan_> micheil: it's an internal build, so for public purposes opera does not support websockets yet
  239. # [14:14] <micheil> okay
  240. # [14:14] <micheil> well, I could do like I've got firefox 4 there.
  241. # [14:15] <micheil> with the footnote saying that it's to be released / being worked on
  242. # [14:15] <Rik`> hsivonen: the plan is to have the console API inside Firefox 4 I think
  243. # [14:15] <zcorpan_> micheil: just don't say it'll be in the next version since that's not a given :)
  244. # [14:15] <hsivonen> Rik`: yeah, but it's not there yet, apparently
  245. # [14:15] <zcorpan_> micheil: i'm fine with it saying it's WIP and it's -76
  246. # [14:16] <hsivonen> in retrospect, navigator.console would have been nicer
  247. # [14:16] <hsivonen> less global scope pollution...
  248. # [14:17] <Cheery> I wrote the server based on this stuff: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/network.html#server-side-requirements
  249. # [14:17] <micheil> zcorpan_: I'll just say: "Opera is currently working on implementing websockets
  250. # [14:17] <zcorpan_> ok
  251. # [14:19] <micheil> zcorpan_: this ok? http://wiki.github.com/miksago/node-websocket-server/browser-support
  252. # [14:19] <micheil> zcorpan_: if you have a github account, then, feel free to edit that page.
  253. # [14:19] <zcorpan_> micheil: looks good
  254. # [14:19] <micheil> okay
  255. # [14:21] <zcorpan_> Cheery: feature check for console before using it
  256. # [14:21] <Cheery> zcorpan_: feature check?
  257. # [14:22] <hsivonen> Cheery: if (console) { /* do stuff with console */ }
  258. # [14:22] <micheil> if( console && console.log)
  259. # [14:22] <Cheery> oh yeah!
  260. # [14:22] <hallvors> if( window.console && console.log )
  261. # [14:23] <hallvors> is better, otherwise "if(console)" will cause exception
  262. # [14:23] <micheil> shouldn't if it's undefined
  263. # [14:23] * Quits: masterov (~masterov@93.153.167.74) (Quit: masterov)
  264. # [14:23] <zcorpan_> yes it should
  265. # [14:23] <hallvors> micheil: if there is no variable "console" it should throw
  266. # [14:23] <micheil> hmm.. fair enough
  267. # [14:23] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@213.41.141.234) (Quit: Rik`)
  268. # [14:24] <hallvors> what's the best version to see what changes happened to a specific part of the HTML5 spec?
  269. # [14:24] <Cheery> so some of your systems drop into the missing console?
  270. # [14:24] <Cheery> hm..
  271. # [14:24] <hallvors> um, what's the best *way* to see what changed in a specific part of the spec?
  272. # [14:24] <zcorpan_> Cheery: also i'd send the message onsubmit on a parent <form> instead of onkeypress
  273. # [14:24] <Cheery> I'll fix that
  274. # [14:25] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-169-112.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  275. # [14:25] <jgraham> hallvors: That is quite difficult in general
  276. # [14:25] <jgraham> What is your specific problem?
  277. # [14:26] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
  278. # [14:26] <hallvors> jgraham: it's a common use case though :p
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  280. # [14:27] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@213.41.141.234)
  281. # [14:27] <hallvors> Actually, I'm looking at an E-mail from Adam Barth on postMessage. He says "The implementations were compatible with the spec when the
  282. # [14:27] <hallvors> implementations were written, as far as I remember" so I'd like to check if this is true
  283. # [14:27] <jgraham> hallvors: Well it's a slightly ill defined problem so it isn't trivial to make a solution
  284. # [14:28] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p1201-ipbf709osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  285. # [14:28] <hallvors> in other words, when was postMessage() targetOrigin specified and when did the spec state it should be protocol+hostname [+port] without path?
  286. # [14:28] <zcorpan_> hallvors: go to http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker and add ?limit=2000 (or so) and search for postMessage or targetOrigin
  287. # [14:29] <jgraham> hallvors: Either use the webapps tracker to look through the log
  288. # [14:29] <jgraham> or check out the spec from the right date using svn
  289. # [14:29] * Joins: davidb_ (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com)
  290. # [14:30] <jgraham> Cheery: Might wfm now
  291. # [14:31] <Cheery> I'll need to do something for this console stuff. somehow it's now working for you. :)
  292. # [14:31] <Cheery> well, now it's good.
  293. # [14:33] <Cheery> jgraham: my server received your message, it seems.
  294. # [14:34] <jgraham> Cheery: OK, does wfm then
  295. # [14:36] <Cheery> want me to publish the log? (though should I first remove all the IPs from it?)
  296. # [14:39] * Joins: nicktick (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/nicktick)
  297. # [14:41] <Cheery> okay.. there's few weird things here.
  298. # [14:42] <Cheery> if I don't send a message to the server, it is unable to push me *anything* at all. :o
  299. # [14:43] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@dslb-188-103-018-010.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  300. # [14:48] <Cheery> the server looks like this: http://pastebin.com/8p64Um1P
  301. # [14:56] <Cheery> there's one weird thing in my system though.
  302. # [14:57] <Cheery> my friend says TCP ought not behave the way it just did
  303. # [14:57] <Cheery> the server should be able to push along that connection
  304. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> wow, cool to see hallvors on #whatwg IRC
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  307. # [15:04] <Cheery> closing the server
  308. # [15:04] <Cheery> not good experiences. :/
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  310. # [15:04] <Cheery> though I still only implemented a draft from it.
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  314. # [15:07] <foolip> roc, there?
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  317. # [15:11] <Cheery> jgraham or zcorpan_: so, is my system working up to the spec?
  318. # [15:11] <Cheery> (or am I missing something important there?)
  319. # [15:11] <Cheery> some of the header retrieved didn't have websocket key. :/
  320. # [15:12] <Cheery> at another point my program spotted a lacking '\x00'
  321. # [15:12] <Cheery> from message
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  323. # [15:13] <roc> foolip: yes
  324. # [15:14] <foolip> roc, just wondering why "Mozilla" has seemingly changed its mind on application/octet-stream
  325. # [15:14] <foolip> perhaps my memory is incomplete
  326. # [15:14] <roc> you guys convinced me you were right
  327. # [15:14] <foolip> oh, what did we say?
  328. # [15:14] <foolip> hehe
  329. # [15:14] <roc> we need to support sniffing for the case where there is no Content-Type
  330. # [15:15] <foolip> is there a problem with just not playing resources with missing Content-Type?
  331. # [15:15] <roc> there is no reason not to sniff when application/octet-stream is the Content-Type too
  332. # [15:15] <phrearch> hey
  333. # [15:15] <phrearch> got a websocket chat as well
  334. # [15:15] <roc> there's a race-to-the-bottom problem given that Safari and Quicktime sniff and they're not going to stop doing that
  335. # [15:16] <Cheery> phrearch: how does your websocket chat fare?
  336. # [15:16] <foolip> do they also play text/plain then?
  337. # [15:16] <roc> I don't know
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  339. # [15:17] <roc> I think so
  340. # [15:17] <foolip> as long as Safari doesn't play Ogg/WebM it's unlikely to cause compat issues though
  341. # [15:17] <foolip> so, I guess I still don't have a strong opinions, but would like things to be consistent
  342. # [15:17] <phrearch> Cheery: its still a very basic chat
  343. # [15:18] <Cheery> when did you write it?
  344. # [15:18] <roc> sure
  345. # [15:18] <phrearch> a week ago using twisted as webserver
  346. # [15:19] <Cheery> how did it worked on different systems?
  347. # [15:19] <foolip> so, I'll wait for your reply to Julian and perhaps some more and then decide what to do with this
  348. # [15:19] <phrearch> ehm, only tested on chromium 5
  349. # [15:19] <phrearch> https://simstad.nl/
  350. # [15:19] <phrearch> not sure if that version is setup right
  351. # [15:19] <phrearch> http://hwios.org/browser/hwios
  352. # [15:19] <phrearch> thats the source
  353. # [15:20] <micheil> since we're sharing, here's mine: http://brandedcode.com:8000/
  354. # [15:20] <micheil> written in Node.js, supports draft76 & draft75
  355. # [15:21] <phrearch> cool
  356. # [15:21] * Joins: Matjas (d5317140@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.49.113.64)
  357. # [15:21] <micheil> and the source code: http://github.com/miksago/node-websocket-server/blob/development/examples/chat-server.js
  358. # [15:22] <micheil> that's the chat specific stuff, in http://github.com/miksago/node-websocket-server/blob/development/lib/
  359. # [15:22] <micheil> is the actual server stuff
  360. # [15:22] <micheil> turns out serving http on a websocket server is also actually quite a good idea
  361. # [15:25] <phrearch> it is?
  362. # [15:25] <phrearch> im doubting between keep on using xhr with html over json for page loading or use websockets for that as well
  363. # [15:25] <Cheery> micheil: a question: where do I find the draft76 and 75?
  364. # [15:26] <Cheery> (specs)
  365. # [15:26] <micheil> on the ietf site
  366. # [15:26] <phrearch> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol-76
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  369. # [15:29] <phrearch> ok messenger works now on https://simstad.nl/
  370. # [15:29] <phrearch> anyone wants to test it quickly?
  371. # [15:29] * Joins: riven (~riven@53518387.cable.casema.nl)
  372. # [15:30] <Cheery> phrearch: no action
  373. # [15:30] <phrearch> hm, what browser?
  374. # [15:30] <phrearch> it should work with chromium 5. im not sure if hixie 76 handshake works ok
  375. # [15:31] <Cheery> hmm..
  376. # [15:31] <Cheery> hixie 75 obsoletes in august
  377. # [15:32] <phrearch> with twisted its not difficult to change the handshake mechanism
  378. # [15:32] <phrearch> it has .76 but i think chromium 5 still uses .75?
  379. # [15:33] <micheil> changed the address: http://brandedcode.com:8080/
  380. # [15:33] <micheil> phrearch: http://wiki.github.com/miksago/node-websocket-server/browser-support
  381. # [15:34] <Cheery> phrearch: chromium 6 uses 76
  382. # [15:34] <phrearch> aha ok
  383. # [15:34] <phrearch> 76 probably doesnt work right
  384. # [15:35] <phrearch> the server handshake on my server that is
  385. # [15:35] <Cheery> the weird thing.
  386. # [15:35] <Cheery> I've got both chromium 5 and 6 on my machine
  387. # [15:35] <Cheery> the chromium 5 doesn't even connect!
  388. # [15:35] <Cheery> (with websocket stuff it has)
  389. # [15:35] <phrearch> wow. who planted an image in the chat window?
  390. # [15:36] <Cheery> what image?
  391. # [15:36] <Cheery> missed it. :/
  392. # [15:36] <phrearch> ehm on http://brandedcode.com:8080/
  393. # [15:37] <phrearch> regexp are nice to add smileys
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  395. # [15:40] <phrearch> im working on a remote ajax service console now. using websockets its much easier to do
  396. # [15:42] <phrearch> how are you guys dispatching events on the server?
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  398. # [15:44] <phrearch> im using a jsonrpc handler serverside and a modified jquery websocket plugin for the client
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  468. # [18:45] <KaOSoFt> http://www.jolicloud.com/blog/
  469. # [18:45] <KaOSoFt> :D
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  482. # [19:18] <jgraham> Oh yay. HyBi spam
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  496. # [19:49] <florent> Hi, I read this thread : http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-October/023661.html, and I wonder if it (or something similar) is still in discussion or not ? (it seems to be given up)
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  499. # [19:59] <florent> is my question not clear ? :(
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  501. # [20:01] <TabAtkins> florent: It's been rejected, as it can be achieved with about a dozen lines of js code.
  502. # [20:02] <florent> ok, thanks TabAtkins
  503. # [20:03] <florent> I have proposal based on this idea, where can I send it ? (on the mailing list ? )
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  505. # [20:04] <florent> (with other advantages)
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  507. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> Just send it to whatwg@whatwg.org
  508. # [20:04] <florent> all right
  509. # [20:05] <florent> Thank you :)
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  545. # [21:56] <oal> How can I prevent newlines in a contenteditable="true" div?
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  547. # [22:02] <oal> Fixed it by using jquery and e.preventDefault() on a keypress event ;)
  548. # [22:03] <jgraham> I would carefully check how well that works cross browser
  549. # [22:03] <oal> Works in chromium and firefox
  550. # [22:03] <jgraham> You should be fine, but keypress events and contentEditable are not known for interoperability
  551. # [22:04] <oal> Don't have IE, but this isn't meant to work in older browsers
  552. # [22:04] <jgraham> oal: So only Opera and IE left to check :)
  553. # [22:04] <oal> jgraham, yep, I have opera installed, will check later :)
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  555. # [22:06] <oal> jgraham, ok, works as expected in Opera too
  556. # [22:06] <Philip`> oal: That sounds like it won't work if the pastes a multi-line string
  557. # [22:07] <oal> Philip`, hmm, true, let's check
  558. # [22:07] <oal> Philip`, you're right. Hmm
  559. # [22:08] <oal> I can remove line breaks when the data is submitted too, to make sure no line breaks are in
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  561. # [22:08] <zcorpan_> why are you using contenteditable instead of <input>?
  562. # [22:08] <oal> Hmm, and maybe a setInterval to check and remove line breaks
  563. # [22:08] <oal> zcorpan_, to get the correct styles
  564. # [22:09] <zcorpan_> oal: can't you style an <input> to inherit the correct styles?
  565. # [22:10] <oal> zcorpan_, probably, but in this case contenteditable does the trick :) Also I'd like to learn how contenteditable works
  566. # [22:10] <zcorpan_> ok. i think <input> is a better solution in the end :)
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  568. # [22:11] <oal> zcorpan_, I can always change the code if that is the case :)
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  591. # Session Close: Tue Jul 20 00:00:00 2010

The end :)