/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-07-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 29 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: aroben)
  4. # [00:00] <AryehGregor> Philip`, there's no competitive need for Gmail to do much of anything, because it's clearly superior to all other web mail services.
  5. # [00:00] <AryehGregor> Whereas search does actually compete to some degree with Bing and Yahoo!, if only because those are the default search engines in a nontrivial number of cases.
  6. # [00:00] <jgraham> If you can make money off an email service it seems like a good market to be in because the switching costs are unusually high
  7. # [00:01] <jgraham> Unlike search where they are basically zero
  8. # [00:01] <AryehGregor> Not really. Gmail supports forwarding to other addresses indefinitely.
  9. # [00:01] <Philip`> Also your mailbox is searched extremely rarely, so the data has extremely low utilisation, and it would be wasteful to use high-speed data stores when most of the time it's not going to be used at all
  10. # [00:01] <Philip`> whereas the web is searched quite often
  11. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> That's true.
  12. # [00:02] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I bet a lot of gmail users don't know that and wouldn't be able to set it up if they did
  13. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> Working set for web searches is probably in memory practically all the time, working set for Gmail searches must typically be on disk . . .
  14. # [00:03] <jgraham> There are still people who use @operamail.com addresses even though it offers 3MB of storage
  15. # [00:03] <Philip`> You can afford to make things much faster when the cost is amortised across a billion users than when it's for one user
  16. # [00:03] * AryehGregor is using 4248 MB of e-mail storage :/
  17. # [00:04] <jgraham> Or 25MB if you pay money
  18. # [00:04] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  19. # [00:04] <AryehGregor> lol.
  20. # [00:04] <jgraham> (but I don't think we are accepting money any more)
  21. # [00:05] <jgraham> Oh my
  22. # [00:05] <jgraham> If you try to register an account the captcha is an animated gif
  23. # [00:05] <jgraham> "Please enter the letters moving up and down in the centre of the image "
  24. # [00:05] <jgraham> I have never seen that before
  25. # [00:05] <Philip`> For good reason
  26. # [00:06] <jgraham> Indeed
  27. # [00:06] * Quits: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-44-247.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
  28. # [00:07] <jgraham> "If you can't see the picture, please click here" - reloads the page with a similar Captcha but in Comic Sans
  29. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> hahahahaha
  30. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> Shouldn't you at least use an obscure font?
  31. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> When I set up captchas for my site, I grabbed some moderately-legible fonts off some free font site.
  32. # [00:07] <jgraham> (actually I don't think it is Comic Sans, but it looks quite like it)
  33. # [00:08] <jgraham> Anyway, I take it there were no a11y people involved with that design...
  34. # [00:10] <jgraham> (the page also has a "Buy Opera" link on it, which helps date it somewhat)
  35. # [00:10] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@70-1-157-108.pools.spcsdns.net)
  36. # [00:11] <jgraham> Oh wow
  37. # [00:12] <jgraham> The whole page is document.write(unescape(long_escaped_string))
  38. # [00:13] <AryehGregor> Impressive.
  39. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> Maybe as an extra deterrent for poorly-written spam bots.
  40. # [00:15] <jgraham> Yeah, I guess that is a logical explaination
  41. # [00:15] <jgraham> I was thinking "one too many Norwegian winters"
  42. # [00:16] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I guess irssi doesn't have built-in spellcheck?
  43. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Nope.
  44. # [00:17] <jgraham> AryehGregor: How can you tell? :)
  45. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> I dislike XChat overall, but spellcheck is convenient.
  46. # [00:17] <jgraham> Yeah, I would like spellcheck
  47. # [00:18] <jgraham> But irissi is awesome just because I can use it over ssh
  48. # [00:18] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that would be nice to have.
  49. # [00:18] <jgraham> Seems to be a plugin for it
  50. # [00:19] <hober> This is when I'm supposed to put in a plug for ERC
  51. # [00:19] <jgraham> Although the UI for the spllcheck seems dreadful
  52. # [00:20] <hober> (which gets things like spellcheck for free. thanks, Emacs!)
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  54. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> UI in IRC clients is generally horrible.
  55. # [00:23] <KaOSoFt> Hey, mIRC works just fine.
  56. # [00:24] <KaOSoFt> I mean, it's not like you need smilies and Live Messenger stuff.
  57. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> Like everything gets flooded with join/part messages, and if you want to turn them off, you turn them off completely.
  58. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> I said UI, not features.
  59. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> Features are also lousy, but that's a whole separate issue.
  60. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> Is it just me, or does http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebTiming/ fail to help the use-case of cross-browser performance comparisons by not being precise enough? It doesn't say exactly what constitutes when a "navigation begins", for example, so UAs might adopt significantly different approaches.
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  62. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> Like one choosing "as soon as the user clicks a link/hits 'Go'/etc.", and another saying "as soon as the HTTP request is on the wire".
  63. # [00:34] <AryehGregor> I guess the latter would really be "fetch", not "navigate".
  64. # [00:34] * AryehGregor is still dubious
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  66. # [00:34] * AryehGregor could send feedback, but already has enough on his plate . . .
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  68. # [00:36] <AryehGregor> I guess it's precise enough.
  69. # [00:36] <dandaman> if i have an inline style of background: and have that tag also have a class with a style of background
  70. # [00:36] <dandaman> the inline style will overtake the class background
  71. # [00:36] <dandaman> right?
  72. # [00:36] <AryehGregor> Unless the class rule has !important specified, yes.
  73. # [00:36] <dandaman> but what if i remove the background with javascript
  74. # [00:37] <dandaman> by going tag.style.background='';
  75. # [00:37] <dandaman> will that make the background the default white
  76. # [00:37] <dandaman> or the class's specified background?
  77. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> Then you're setting the element's style, so it still overrides the rule in the stylesheet, I assume.
  78. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> Although I don't know offhand. Try it and see.
  79. # [00:37] <dandaman> ok
  80. # [00:38] <dandaman> do you know of a way to remove the inline style with javascript
  81. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> Oh, I didn't read far enough. The timing spec seems quite precise. Will be nice to have, I guess.
  82. # [00:38] <dandaman> to make the class's stylesheet take over?
  83. # [00:38] <Hixie> should we just obsolete <address>? people never understand what it's for
  84. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> Hixie, yes.
  85. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> Also <kbd> and <samp>, too obscure. Those can be covered by expanding <code> a bit, or resurrecting <tt> in the fashion of <i> and <b>.
  86. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> I filed a bug about it.
  87. # [00:39] <Hixie> <kbd> and <samp> are fine, no need to remove them
  88. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> Someone is pressuring me to whitelist <address> in MediaWiki at this very moment, as it happens, so this is good timing.
  89. # [00:40] * AryehGregor is dubious.
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  91. # [00:40] <Hixie> the problem is that there are lots and lots of pages that use <address> correctly
  92. # [00:40] <Hixie> automatically generated man pages and the like
  93. # [00:41] <AryehGregor> Does anyone consume it, though?
  94. # [00:42] <hober> IIRC <address>+hCard is used for "canonical hCards"
  95. # [00:42] <hober> or "representative hCards"
  96. # [00:42] * hober looks up the term
  97. # [00:42] <Hixie> AryehGregor: does anyone consume <em>?
  98. # [00:43] * Quits: oal (~oal@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  99. # [00:43] <AryehGregor> Well, it's rendered in italics, so in that sense yes. I don't know if anyone distinguishes it from <i>, practically speaking.
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  101. # [00:43] <AryehGregor> If no one does, that seems like it calls into question the point of distinguishing them. But probably too late to change that now.
  102. # [00:44] <dandaman> AryehGregor: background=' ' made it go to the class's specified background in case you were wondering
  103. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> Okay, if you say so.
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  105. # [00:44] <Hixie> AryehGregor: <address> is also rendered in italics, so in that sense also yes, then. :-)
  106. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> Sounds like a hack.
  107. # [00:45] <AryehGregor> Touché.
  108. # [00:46] <AryehGregor> Meh, I don't really care. These things are cool ideas, but all basically useless in practice as far as I can tell. They're used incorrectly such a large percentage of the time that they can't typically be assigned useful non-presentational meaning anyway.
  109. # [00:46] <Hixie> is <address> used more incorrectly than <blockquote>?
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  111. # [00:46] <AryehGregor> Well, it's sure used a lot less in absolute terms.
  112. # [00:46] <Hixie> my concern isn't so much that it's used incorrectly, so much as that people don't use it because they think it's for something else
  113. # [00:47] <AryehGregor> Whether the usage is more often incorrect percentage-wise, I dunno.
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  115. # [00:47] <AryehGregor> It should be called <author>.
  116. # [00:47] <Hixie> yeah
  117. # [00:47] <AryehGregor> Then everyone would use it.
  118. # [00:47] <Hixie> indeed
  119. # [00:47] <AryehGregor> I mean, at least the people who want to use trendy semantic markup.
  120. # [00:47] <Hixie> eh, i guess i'll punt this to the future and we can look at it again
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  123. # [00:49] <AryehGregor> Shrug. Fine by me.
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  135. # [01:15] <paul_irish> z-index, of course requires an element to be positioned, but positioned elements often don't play well with transformed elements. but i want to manage z-order of my transformed elements. is it worth considering z-index apply to tranformed elements or should vendors address issues of positioned transformed elems?
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  154. # [02:36] <Hixie> man, can you imagine how the last 10 years on the web would have been if html4 had defined the semantics of elements to the level of care and detail that y'all are making me put into the elements' definitions now?
  155. # [02:36] * Hixie updates the wording of the definition of <article> once again
  156. # [02:39] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Good or bad?
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  158. # [02:40] <TabAtkins> paul_irish_: How does z-index and transformations play badly together?
  159. # [02:40] <micheil> Hixie: you could put in a claus that every time the spec gets updated for a minor word change that a kitten gets killed.
  160. # [02:40] <Hixie> TabAtkins: good, i hope
  161. # [02:41] <Hixie> micheil: that would be bad given how many minor mistakes i make
  162. # [02:41] <aho> padding + transform is really weird imo
  163. # [02:41] <micheil> heh, it was more a reference to yesterday
  164. # [02:41] <micheil> http://drp.ly/1rhtfH
  165. # [02:41] <aho> eg 0 10px + 90° = 10px 10px ish
  166. # [02:42] <aho> (is it really supposed to be like this?) :>
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  169. # [02:50] <TabAtkins> aho: Yes. transforms don't alter the geometry of the object - it still takes up exactly as much space as it did before. So, the space previously taken up by the horizontal padding still exists, but the element also appears to now have "vertical" padding.
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  174. # [02:56] <myakura> looks like http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/ is gone. something gone wrong? politics?
  175. # [02:58] <TabAtkins> It's not gone on purpose.
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  187. # [03:33] <Hixie> myakura: fixed
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  202. # [04:42] <myakura> Hixie: Thanks!
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  268. # [09:02] <hsivonen> what makes Web authors declare iso-10646 in meta?
  269. # [09:03] <hsivonen> ...on pages that aren't in UTF-16BE
  270. # [09:06] <Rik`> copy paste ?
  271. # [09:12] <hsivonen> where would you copy iso-10646 from?
  272. # [09:13] <estellevw> lol
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  274. # [09:14] <Matjas> How would you guys go about marking up a FAQ? I’m thinking of using a <dl> but I’m not sure if that's a good idea.
  275. # [09:14] <Matjas> i.e. <dl> <dt>Q: foo</dt> <dd>A: bar</dd> </dl>
  276. # [09:14] <hsivonen> Matjas: that works
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  279. # [09:15] <estellevw> well, is the answer really defining the question?
  280. # [09:15] <Rik`> hsivonen: maybe wrong interpretation of http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/charset.html ?
  281. # [09:16] <estellevw> I think <dl> is very oftne, if not generally used for FAQ, but that's not quite semantically correct
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  283. # [09:17] <Hixie> estellevw: it is in HTML5 as far as I can tell
  284. # [09:17] <Hixie> indeed the example for <dt> is a FAQ: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#the-dt-element
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  287. # [09:23] <estellevw> i was looking here: http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/dt.html, name or term
  288. # [09:24] <Hixie> that's not the html5 spec
  289. # [09:24] <estellevw> yeah, i know
  290. # [09:24] <estellevw> thinking that page needs to be updated to reflect that ther ehas been a change
  291. # [09:25] <estellevw> that is the quick cheat sheet that a lot of implmenetors are using
  292. # [09:25] <Hixie> HTML5 itself is pretty clear that "name" is not being used in the english sense here but in the sense of an association list
  293. # [09:26] <Hixie> but I guess it could be made even clearer
  294. # [09:26] <Matjas> Thanks hsivonen, Hixie and estellevw!
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  297. # [09:26] <annevk> estellevw, which implementors?
  298. # [09:27] <estellevw> There was a lot of discussion around DL at openwebcamp last week
  299. # [09:27] <Hixie> i assume estellevw means authors, not implementors
  300. # [09:27] <estellevw> front end engineers
  301. # [09:27] <estellevw> yes
  302. # [09:27] <estellevw> sorry
  303. # [09:27] <Hixie> np :-)
  304. # [09:27] <estellevw> i'm a front end. I implement at work ;)
  305. # [09:27] * Hixie has filed a bug to make HTML5 clearer about this btw
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  307. # [09:29] <estellevw> the discussion revolved around the semantics, screen readers, accessibility, etc. I htink the conclusion was that it wasn't quite semantic, but it was the best solution. Glad to see the nuanced change in the HTML5. Good change. And, good to get an official clarification
  308. # [09:29] <estellevw> Plus, the next time I see everyone, i can say "I told you so" :D
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  310. # [09:35] * hsivonen believes the relationship of semantics and screen readers gets exaggerated
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  312. # [09:39] <estellevw> hsivonen: Open Web Camp, had several visually impaired users in attendance. It made for interesting conversation, and blew away many notions of what people had assumed were tenets of accessibility.
  313. # [09:39] <Hixie> like what?
  314. # [09:40] <estellevw> Many believed the title attribute to be very useful for accessibility.
  315. # [09:40] <Hixie> current screen readers make it basically impossible to read the title="" attribute
  316. # [09:40] <estellevw> seems that they're not helpful at all for users of screen reader. y
  317. # [09:40] <Hixie> it's a major bug in current screen readers
  318. # [09:40] <estellevw> yeah
  319. # [09:41] <Hixie> seems so easy to fix, too, dunno why they don't
  320. # [09:41] <estellevw> probably because most authors abuse the title attribute for feeding google
  321. # [09:41] <Hixie> (just have an audio cue when a title="" is available on the element being read out, and have a key to immediately play back the titles of the text currently being played)
  322. # [09:42] * estellevw trying to remember 'author' not 'implementor'
  323. # [09:42] <Hixie> (plus something to navigate by title, but that can be added to the many existing navigation mechanisms)
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  325. # [09:44] <Hixie> user/reader, author/webdev/coder/designer/page/app, implementor/vendor/ua/browser
  326. # [09:44] <Hixie> the three main classes
  327. # [09:44] <zdenekkostal> Could you say in HTML5 spec. how screen readers should read and understand the content? I think it would be very usefull for web developers, because when I code some project, I haven't enought time to test it in screen readers...
  328. # [09:45] <estellevw> I don't test in screen readers either
  329. # [09:46] <estellevw> the best quick accessibility checks involve navigating your page without your mouse (just use the keyboard), and test the page without images and without css to see how the screen reader would read the page (leave javascript on)
  330. # [09:46] <Hixie> if you're on a mac you can use voiceover to test it
  331. # [09:47] <estellevw> Windows 7 has a very cool reader as well.
  332. # [09:47] <estellevw> unfortunately (or fortunately) I don't have windows 7 yet
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  384. # [12:40] <annevk> so unless something unforeseen happens I'm going to Maastricht after all
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  388. # [12:49] <hsivonen> annevk: how long is the meeting? I thought it would be over by now.
  389. # [12:50] <annevk> it's tomorrow midday
  390. # [12:50] <annevk> I'm just going for hybi
  391. # [12:56] <hsivonen> annevk: "fun"
  392. # [12:57] <hsivonen> so in the meta charset sniffing "UTF-16" is special-cased
  393. # [12:57] <annevk> we'll see
  394. # [12:57] <hsivonen> does that really mean "UTF-16" only or also BE, LE and 32?
  395. # [12:57] <annevk> hopefully talking F2F will help clarify a few things
  396. # [12:57] <annevk> UTF-32 is irrelevant
  397. # [12:58] <annevk> iirc it just means UTF-16 case-insensitive
  398. # [12:59] <hsivonen> ok. how about the other cases in the spec where the charset of a URL is checked for "UTF-16", does that mean BE and LE, too?
  399. # [12:59] <hsivonen> (my guess is yes)
  400. # [12:59] <annevk> oh sorry
  401. # [12:59] <annevk> it says "a UTF-16 encoding"
  402. # [12:59] <annevk> I guess that means all of them
  403. # [13:00] <hsivonen> aliases, too?
  404. # [13:00] <hsivonen> it seems to me Safari doesn't do aliases
  405. # [13:01] <hsivonen> UTF-16 is such a bad idea :-(
  406. # [13:01] <hsivonen> must have seemed great at the time
  407. # [13:01] <annevk> aliases too
  408. # [13:01] <annevk> in fact, lots of the encoding stuff are pretty bad ideas
  409. # [13:02] <annevk> one day i'll sort it out
  410. # [13:02] <Ms2ger> Good luck
  411. # [13:02] <annevk> and ICU can be obsoleted
  412. # [13:02] <annevk> I made quite a bit of progress with encoding detection
  413. # [13:02] <hsivonen> annevk: it's good to have goals
  414. # [13:02] <annevk> and encodings to be supported by popular user agents
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  416. # [13:03] <annevk> what there's yet to do is defining for each encoding how it maps to Unicode
  417. # [13:03] <annevk> (and possibly how it maps back)
  418. # [13:03] <hsivonen> annevk: doesn't ftp.unicode.org already do that except for Microsoft deltas?
  419. # [13:03] <annevk> in more detail than encodings are defined today (e.g. precise error handling for UTF-8) and more compatible (lots of ASIAN encodings support more than the standards indicate)
  420. # [13:03] <hsivonen> annevk: ok.
  421. # [13:05] <hsivonen> Woohoo. at least this iso-10646 thing isn't my mistake but a spec bug :-)
  422. # [13:05] * hsivonen files
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  424. # [13:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: do you happen to have something that you could grep for pages that say iso-10646 in meta and don't have an HTTP-level charset?
  425. # [13:27] <hsivonen> I'd like to know if those pages work better as UTF-8 or as Windows-1252
  426. # [13:27] <hsivonen> or UTF-8 vs. chardet + default
  427. # [13:30] <hsivonen> Philip`: it would be great to have similar data for UTF-16BE, UTF-16LE, UTF-32, UTF-32BE and UTF-32LE
  428. # [13:32] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://philip.html5.org/data/charsets-2.html#charset-iso-10646-1
  429. # [13:33] <Peter`> Ericsson seems to be playing around with implementing <device> in WebKit: https://labs.ericsson.com/blog/beyond-html5-implementing-device-and-stream-management-webkit
  430. # [13:33] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks! (looks like a rare value, thankfully)
  431. # [13:33] <Philip`> hsivonen: Also http://philip.html5.org/data/charsets.html#charset-iso-10646 from a smaller but possibly more reliable set of pages
  432. # [13:35] * Philip` doesn't entirely trust his data analysis, particularly for non-ASCII-compatible encodings
  433. # [13:39] <annevk> Peter`, pretty cool
  434. # [13:39] <annevk> Peter`, though not sure why they use video_player rather than media
  435. # [13:40] <hsivonen> the UTF-32 cases no longer say UTF-32...
  436. # [13:41] <jgraham> othermaciej: Are you or abarth going to be at the hybi meting?
  437. # [13:42] <othermaciej> jgraham: definitely not me
  438. # [13:42] <annevk> hsivonen, in the spec? UTF-32 support was dropped
  439. # [13:43] <hsivonen> annevk: the pages listed as UTF-32 in Philip`'s data
  440. # [13:43] <Peter`> annevk: apparently they use a hack to circomvent security limitations during development
  441. # [13:46] * hsivonen mumbles about x-imap4-modified-utf7 and Java's modified UTF-8
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  443. # [13:51] <hsivonen> does webkit.org have a source code search that doesn't search changesets?
  444. # [13:51] <hsivonen> (I'm looking for the code that maps UTF-16 to UTF-8 in meta)
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  446. # [13:59] <Philip`> hsivonen: Google Code Search with package:webkit sort of works, vaguely
  447. # [13:59] <hsivonen> dear lazy IRC, how do I make Ubuntu show me crash stacks for apps that have debug symbols but that don't come from Canonical?
  448. # [13:59] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  449. # [13:59] <Philip`> Looks like it might be http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/WebCore/loader/TextResourceDecoder.cpp?rev=64262#L344
  450. # [14:00] <Philip`> and http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/WebCore/platform/text/TextEncoding.cpp#L224 which returns UTF-8
  451. # [14:00] <Philip`> perhaps
  452. # [14:00] <jgraham> othermaciej: OK. Do you have any opinion on the framing issue? Both technical and whether it is worth discussing in the "four week" timescale?
  453. # [14:00] <hsivonen> Philip`: interesting. thanks. that doesn't match my black-box testing, though
  454. # [14:01] <othermaciej> (I wonder if we should be saying "message" instead of "frame")
  455. # [14:01] <hsivonen> (or I misinterpret what "Default" means in Safari's menu)
  456. # [14:01] <hsivonen> does Default in Safari mean "what page said" or "user's default"?
  457. # [14:01] <othermaciej> jgraham: I think length-delimited text frames would be slightly technically superior to sentinel-delimited, but I don't care very much either way
  458. # [14:02] <othermaciej> jgraham: I think it's essential for text and binary to be clearly distinguished, and I think using presence/absence of a MIME type or whether the MIME type starts with text/ are very poor ways to signal text vs binary
  459. # [14:03] <othermaciej> jgraham: if we want to change text frames to be length-delimited, it probably needs to happen sooner rather than later
  460. # [14:03] <jgraham> othermaciej: OK, that mirrors my thoughts rather well. SO I am a little more confident that I am not toally off base :)
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  462. # [14:04] <jgraham> I wonder if no one is discussing the handshake issue because they don't feel confident, or simply because the conversation has been led astray
  463. # [14:05] <hsivonen> Philip`: blame points to encoding, not decoding: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21635
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  466. # [14:06] * hsivonen wonders what proportion of Web users globally is behind a proxy
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  471. # [14:22] <hsivonen> non-UTF-8 encodings lead to unhappiness
  472. # [14:22] <annevk> yeah
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  474. # [14:23] <annevk> can't believe this Greg Wilkins is pushing for non-UTF-8 support in WebSocket
  475. # [14:23] <annevk> I often get the feeling with him he's just pushing for features
  476. # [14:23] <annevk> features and complexity
  477. # [14:24] <hsivonen> annevk: I trust Hixie is good at saying "no" in that case
  478. # [14:25] <hsivonen> annevk: what's the rationale for non-UTF-8?
  479. # [14:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: fwiw, when <acronym> is obsoleted, it would be logical to zap <strong>, <em>, <kbd>, <samp> and <cite>, too
  480. # [14:27] <annevk> UTF-16 was there and "potential future encodings"
  481. # [14:27] <hsivonen> (maybe not practical for validator user-friendliness but consistent with the removal of <acronym>)
  482. # [14:27] <hsivonen> annevk: that's so sad
  483. # [14:29] <hsivonen> If we ever run out of UTF-8, it's more likely to start allowing 6-byte sequences than to come up with something new
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  500. # [14:43] <annevk> it in fact allowed those once
  501. # [15:00] <annevk> is there a counter proposal for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jan/1006.html to keep the wiki in place?
  502. # [15:00] <annevk> having more things rely on IANA is a step backwards imo
  503. # [15:01] <hsivonen> what's the deal with having to log in to the W3C bugzilla all the time?
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  510. # [15:18] <othermaciej> annevk: no one ever wrote a counter-proposal
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  513. # [15:26] <annevk> meh
  514. # [15:29] <crash\> Must HTML5 browsers conform with the XHTML-Syntax and support application/xhtml+xml?
  515. # [15:30] <annevk> no
  516. # [15:32] <crash\> Is there anything about Processing Instructions in the descriped HTML parsing process?
  517. # [15:32] <crash\> are they simply skipped?
  518. # [15:32] <annevk> they are treated as bogus comments
  519. # [15:33] <crash\> ok, thanks
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  521. # [15:37] <Lachy> othermaciej, given the new information about RFC 20 from Leif yesterday, how will that affect the current ASCII ref poll?
  522. # [15:37] <annevk> RFC 20 also does not refer to Unicode
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  526. # [15:52] <hsivonen> the recent polyglot threads demonstrate why working on a polyglot draft is bad
  527. # [15:52] <hsivonen> it's a time sink for the WG
  528. # [15:53] <Lachy> it's especially bad when we start getting requests for polyglot-only syntax, which really goes against the whole concept of what a polyglot document is.
  529. # [15:54] <hsivonen> Lachy: indeed
  530. # [16:05] <jgraham> I really wish I had a clue why anyone wants to add MIME to WebSockets
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  532. # [16:05] <jgraham> Or specifically Content-Type
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  536. # [16:25] <hsivonen> argh. I got trolled into the polygot threads again
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  541. # [16:41] <Lachy> does anyone know where the Mozilla's useragent stylesheet html.css file has gone? It no longer appears in the res directory, as it did in older Firefox builds? I'm trying to see exactly what the new styles for figure are in now in Minefield
  542. # [16:42] <Lachy> oh, same as blockquote.
  543. # [16:43] <Lachy> found it via DOM Inspector.
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  547. # [16:56] <Ms2ger> Lachy, that's what the spec said
  548. # [16:57] <annevk> fun -- http://www.flumotion.com/first_webm_live_event.php -- WebM streaming
  549. # [16:57] <annevk> seems to work fine
  550. # [16:57] <annevk> although the the time and general controls seem a bit off
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  552. # [16:58] <hsivonen> so weird to see "Oracle" on the projector
  553. # [16:59] <hsivonen> why do they only advertise Opera and Firefox? Is streaming broken in Chrome?
  554. # [17:00] <annevk> hmm, someone is talking about chrome usability, but it's not mpt afaik
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  556. # [17:00] <annevk> hsivonen, maybe it's not in Chrome beta builds yet?
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  559. # [17:04] <annevk> s/chrome/Ubuntu/ doh
  560. # [17:04] <annevk> well, GNOME
  561. # [17:07] <zdenekkostal> the WebM streaming is incredible! Only timeline in Opera seems broken
  562. # [17:08] <hsivonen> works great in Minefield. the timeline was a bit jumpy during the first minute but now it looks ok
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  564. # [17:13] <jgraham> hsivonen: You know how you love document.write...
  565. # [17:13] <Lachy> doesn't work in chromium for me on Mac
  566. # [17:13] <Lachy> shows one frame, but doesn't play
  567. # [17:13] <jgraham> I just found some odd behaviour that seems to be a Gecko (+WebKit) bug...
  568. # [17:24] <hsivonen> jgraham: what's the behavior?
  569. # [17:24] <jgraham> hsivonen: One moment
  570. # [17:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: I can't reproduce over HTTP :(
  571. # [17:27] <jgraham> I think it is a race condition
  572. # [17:27] <jgraham> http://hoppipolla.co.uk/tests/document_write/001.html
  573. # [17:28] <jgraham> The odd behaviour in WebKit reproduces though
  574. # [17:28] <jgraham> hsivonen: When I run it locally I get output like:
  575. # [17:28] <jgraham> 0,54,1,50,2,51,3,56,4,61,4,1280417173326
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  577. # [17:29] <jgraham> It also didn't reproduce when I moved all the js inline
  578. # [17:29] <jgraham> (but did in WebKit, where I think it is not a race condition, just mildly crazy)
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  580. # [17:31] <hsivonen> Is see 0,52,1,49,2,51,3,49,4,50 in Minefield over HTTP
  581. # [17:31] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yeah, that looks sane
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  583. # [17:31] <jgraham> And is the same as I see over HTTP
  584. # [17:32] <hsivonen> ok. that *is* weird
  585. # [17:32] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks
  586. # [17:33] <jgraham> hsivonen: (it is not a HTTP vs non-HTTP thing because it is wrong if I run it from a local apache)
  587. # [17:33] <jgraham> (so I assume it is speed)
  588. # [17:35] <hsivonen> speed of the external script load vs. the initial iframe load?
  589. # [17:35] <jgraham> Could be
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  591. # [17:36] <hsivonen> maybe a local script gets read in as one event loop task
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  593. # [17:39] <hsivonen> jgraham: filed as https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=582975
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  595. # [17:41] <jgraham> hsivonen: Thanks
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  598. # [17:44] <colapop> jgraham: isn't start_time null at the time you set the event listener? Maybe the race condition is it fires & calls done() before start_time is initialized?
  599. # [17:45] <colapop> er, nevermind :)
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  609. # [18:16] <othermaciej> I don't see where RFC 20 was mentioned
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  615. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: In the latest message to the "Issue 101: us-ascii-ref - Straw Poll for Objections" thread.
  616. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> He linked http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc0020.txt
  617. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> Sigh. Okay, the fancy ascii table formatting is pretty, but really, what's the point of doing something where you have to split up the hexits when you can just do a simple two-column table? A split 2col table could be equally compact, or likely more compact actually.
  618. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> Silly people from 40 years ago.
  619. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> Or I guess 10 years ago, maybe? When it was put into the archives?
  620. # [18:27] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: was this on public-html? I don't see it...
  621. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Yeah, it's the thread you started.
  622. # [18:28] <jgraham> othermaciej: http://www.w3.org/mid/20100728203158367745.c11b49f9@xn--mlform-iua.no
  623. # [18:28] <jgraham> If the archive is working again
  624. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> What's the purpose of the /mid/ thing, when you can just dive into the individual directories for each list?
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  626. # [18:31] <othermaciej> jgraham: hmm, oddly I don't see it in my public-html folder
  627. # [18:31] <othermaciej> checking if it might be somewhere else
  628. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> You been auto-spamming Leif's email?
  629. # [18:31] <jgraham> Maybe othermaciej has started snaking on email in the night
  630. # [18:31] <jgraham> *snacking
  631. # [18:31] <othermaciej> offhand, I am not sure what to do about it, unless someone seriously wants to propose it as an alternative instead of the ones already on the table
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  633. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> Well, it's an official-looking and seemingly complete ASCII ref.
  634. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> And it was written by Vint Cerf!
  635. # [18:33] <othermaciej> hard to argue with that
  636. # [18:34] <othermaciej> is it in any way superior to the suggested ECMA-006?
  637. # [18:34] <othermaciej> my recollection from the poll is that the main objection to 006 is not defining the mapping to unicode, which flaw RFC20 seems to share
  638. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> More official-looking. Otherwise, no, because it lacks the unicode mapping.
  639. # [18:35] <othermaciej> I suspect it's actually less official
  640. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> Actual officialness is irrelevant.
  641. # [18:36] <othermaciej> ECMA-006 is the ECMA version of the joint publication with ISO that is the successor to ASCII
  642. # [18:36] <othermaciej> so it's an official joint publication, not just an ad-hoc copy
  643. # [18:36] <othermaciej> at least as I understand it
  644. # [18:36] <annevk5> yeah, it's just an RFC
  645. # [18:37] <annevk5> though really this is all quite nutty
  646. # [18:37] <annevk5> and quite the time sink
  647. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> Man, Cerf really liked his joke RFCs.
  648. # [18:37] <othermaciej> if we just let the poll continue then mainly it will consume the chairs' time and not much more of anyone else's
  649. # [18:38] <annevk5> the number of times this issue has been discussed here on IRC and on the list...
  650. # [18:38] <annevk5> anyway, back to super mario
  651. # [18:41] <jgraham> annevk5: Mario Galaxy 2?
  652. # [18:44] <annevk5> bros
  653. # [18:45] <jgraham> Ah
  654. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> kickin' it old school
  655. # [18:45] * jgraham is wondering how desperate he should be for MG2
  656. # [18:45] <annevk5> bros wii that is
  657. # [18:45] <annevk5> mg2 is quite cool
  658. # [18:45] <annevk5> but some frustrating levels made me give up for now
  659. # [18:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: Aww, want it for your birthday?
  660. # [18:46] <jgraham> Mario Galaxy + Yoshi sounds like it has to be awesome
  661. # [18:46] <jgraham> (although most things + Yoshi sound like that)
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  673. # [19:34] <hsivonen> so now that IANA has a link registry, it can't be used yet, because more bureaucracy is needed to establish certain flags in the registry???
  674. # [19:34] <annevk5> of course
  675. # [19:34] <annevk5> that's why we should have a wiki instead
  676. # [19:42] <Workshiva> Is the new registry properly registered?
  677. # [19:42] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  678. # [19:43] <annevk5> think so
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  689. # [20:15] <franksalim> MIME sockets???
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  712. # [21:42] <Workshiva> I note that wikipedia deleted the article about DeathStation 9000
  713. # [21:45] <annevk5> deletionists strike again?
  714. # [21:51] <jgraham> I want to write an article about deletionists and see how long it lasts
  715. # [21:52] <annevk5> I'm still not over what they did to the Pokeman pages
  716. # [21:52] <annevk5> of course I only started caring after I learned about what happened (though I had seen the original ones as well for unclear reasons)
  717. # [21:53] <Workshiva> Gotta protect those bytes, so people don't waste them
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  719. # [21:58] <hsivonen> wikipedia deletionism is sad and annoying
  720. # [21:59] <hsivonen> particularly when you want to know what something is or what someone is supposed to be famous for and you see that there has been an article but is has been deleted as not notable enough
  721. # [21:59] * Joins: roc (~roc@121.98.230.221)
  722. # [22:00] * jgraham wonders how articles about TV shows "are more likely to result in articles that are OR"
  723. # [22:01] <jgraham> How can watching a TV show and summarising the plot count as original research?
  724. # [22:01] <jgraham> The source... is the TV show
  725. # [22:01] <Workshiva> First party sources aren't good
  726. # [22:02] <jgraham> That's clearly insane
  727. # [22:02] * Joins: dglazkov_ (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-kohioropxvphescf)
  728. # [22:03] <jgraham> If there is a track listing for a CD (common on wikipedia) I don't also expect there to be a link to an independent source listing the tracks on the CD
  729. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> It's completely insane, but there you have it.
  730. # [22:04] <GPHemsley> Is there a way to excluded a form element (e.g. <input type="submit">) from being submitted in a GET request?
  731. # [22:04] <GPHemsley> -d
  732. # [22:04] <AryehGregor> Primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are
  733. # [22:04] <AryehGregor> supported by the source. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not make analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about material found in a primary source. Do not base articles entirely on primary sources. Do not add unsourced material from your personal experience, because that would make Wikipedia a primary source of that
  734. # [22:04] <AryehGregor> material.
  735. # [22:04] <AryehGregor> Blech, too long.
  736. # [22:05] * GPHemsley tries to avoid the Wikipedia discussion
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  738. # [22:05] * dglazkov_ is now known as dglazkov
  739. # [22:05] <AryehGregor> GPHemsley, why do you want to not submit it?
  740. # [22:06] <GPHemsley> because, in essence, the form is intended to just add a sort variable to the URL, it doesn't need the submit variable too
  741. # [22:06] <GPHemsley> (whether that is a Bad Thing™, I don't know)
  742. # [22:09] <AryehGregor> You can't just ignore the submit variable?
  743. # [22:11] <GPHemsley> I want pretty URLs :)
  744. # [22:11] <Workshiva> GPHemsley: Don't give it a name?
  745. # [22:12] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com) (Quit: davidb_)
  746. # [22:12] <GPHemsley> oh, that's easy :P
  747. # [22:12] <GPHemsley> thank you
  748. # [22:13] <hsivonen> GPHemsley: see the script on validator.nu
  749. # [22:13] <GPHemsley> hsivonen: oh, is that bad?
  750. # [22:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: OTOH, wikipedia seems to be fine with using XHTML2 WG's publication themselves as sources when writing about the XHTML2 WG's publications...
  751. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, it looks like you can directly repeat what primary sources say, you just can't summarize or interpret them.
  752. # [22:15] <hsivonen> GPHemsley: the script on validator.nu does tricks to make GET URLs shorter
  753. # [22:15] <GPHemsley> oh, well, I don't want JS tricks :)
  754. # [22:16] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: I mean even the propaganda parts of XHTML2 WG's publications
  755. # [22:16] <GPHemsley> hsivonen: Agh, why is the view-source of validator.nu afraid of line endings? ;_;
  756. # [22:17] * Quits: annevk5 (~annevk@5355737B.cable.casema.nl) (Quit: annevk5)
  757. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> Well, it's a secondary source on that, I guess. It shouldn't be taken as fact if it's disputed, it should be cited as the XHTMLWG's opinion.
  758. # [22:19] <hsivonen> GPHemsley: it's machine to machine communications :-)
  759. # [22:20] <GPHemsley> yeah, well, this machine doesn't like horizontal scrolling ;)
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  777. # [23:05] <jgraham> This is a public service announcement (with guitars): chocolate from Trinidad is *so* nice
  778. # [23:05] <jgraham> At least the stuff I have right now is
  779. # [23:06] <jgraham> And I think the single origin Valrhona I particularly liked was from there too
  780. # [23:06] <jgraham> But I am not sure
  781. # [23:08] <jgraham> Also, it is really annoying how hard it is to do the simplest things without running into browser bugs
  782. # [23:09] <jgraham> It is doubly annoying when you were the one who should have found the bug
  783. # [23:09] <jgraham> One day someone will write a musical about the tragic life of a browser QA
  784. # [23:10] <jgraham> (I would have said opera, but that could have been mistaken for a pun)
  785. # [23:10] <gsnedders> jgraham: I find you notice minor issues far less when not a browser QA
  786. # [23:11] <boblet> jgraham: chocolate announcement requires independent verification, please forward to…
  787. # [23:11] <boblet> completely agree re: bugs too
  788. # [23:14] <boblet> regarding the a element, it says “Contexts in which this element may be used: Where phrasing content is expected”. As a can be flow content, shouldn’t that be where flow or phrasing content is expected?
  789. # [23:14] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
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  791. # [23:16] <jgraham> Oh
  792. # [23:17] <jgraham> I just discovered a site selling catering-sized bags of chocolate
  793. # [23:17] <jgraham> That is *such* a bad thing to know about
  794. # [23:17] <gsnedders> Will all end well?
  795. # [23:17] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.75.31) (Quit: nn)
  796. # [23:17] <jgraham> At 60GBP a bag, it would end in poverty at least
  797. # [23:18] <jgraham> (3kg)
  798. # [23:18] <gsnedders> You'll need a lot more rasberies to make up for that…
  799. # [23:18] <jgraham> Yeah
  800. # [23:18] * jgraham closes that tab quickly
  801. # [23:19] <boblet> you need the equivalent of a pet food dispenser to limit consumption. it’d work then
  802. # [23:22] * Quits: jlebar (~jlebar@63.245.220.220) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  803. # [23:23] <boblet> guess I’ll file a bug, although I can’t believe no one has noticed it until now, which makes me wonder if I’m missing something re: flow/phrasing content :/
  804. # [23:23] <gsnedders> Well, a lot of browser people only care about UA requirements
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  813. # Session Close: Fri Jul 30 00:00:00 2010

The end :)