/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-07-30 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Fri Jul 30 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] <jgraham> Hmm, i think I just managed to DOS myself
  4. # [00:03] <jgraham> s/DOS/DoS/
  5. # [00:04] <jgraham> I didn't mistakenly install a legacy operating system, after all
  6. # [00:05] <boblet> jgraham: that would have been far worse
  7. # [00:06] * Quits: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: nimbupani)
  8. # [00:07] <jgraham> boblet: Well if this doesn't finish soon my laptop will be so hot it will set fire to my house
  9. # [00:07] <jgraham> and I will probably die in the flames
  10. # [00:07] <jgraham> So I'm not sure I agree with your assessment
  11. # [00:08] <boblet> jgraham: you can put some water on it to cool it down
  12. # [00:08] * jgraham notes never to let boblet join the fire brigade
  13. # [00:09] <boblet> jgraham: good point, ice would be better huh
  14. # [00:09] <annevk> you guys missed http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/REC-xhtml-modularization-20100729/ ?
  15. # [00:10] <jgraham> annevk: I think "missed" is not quite right
  16. # [00:10] <jgraham> Maybe "filtered out as a pointless waste of bits"
  17. # [00:11] <jgraham> Although I did click on the link
  18. # [00:11] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  19. # [00:11] <jgraham> So it may open sometime in the distant future if the browser ever starts responding again
  20. # [00:11] <annevk> glad to waste your time ;p
  21. # [00:12] * Quits: taf2 (~taf2@173-13-232-33-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: taf2)
  22. # [00:12] <annevk> maybe I'll get some sleep
  23. # [00:12] <annevk> got to clean up some stuff tomorrow morning and get to Maastricht in time for some hopefully constructive discussion
  24. # [00:13] <boblet> good to see they’re making progress on that whole XHTML thing
  25. # [00:14] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.17.141)
  26. # [00:16] * Quits: oal (~oal@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  27. # [00:16] * jgraham wonders when Hixie is looking at WebSockets
  28. # [00:17] <annevk> if anyone wants to have me say anything on WebSockets at the Hybi meeting tomorrow just email and I'll try tor relay
  29. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> "stop complicating things, yor morons"?
  30. # [00:18] <franksalim> "sockets don't send messages"
  31. # [00:18] <annevk> heh, I'm gonna try to work out our different points of view; not sure if "morons" will be effective at that :)
  32. # [00:19] <jgraham> franksalim: Hmm? Websockets do at the moment
  33. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> "stop complicating things, you wonderful people"?
  34. # [00:19] <franksalim> ok, "sockets don't send MIME messages"
  35. # [00:19] <annevk> jgraham, I think what he means is that they don't need a media type and all
  36. # [00:19] <annevk> right
  37. # [00:19] <jgraham> Yeah
  38. # [00:19] <franksalim> some of the proposals are so far away from "TCP for the Web" it hurts
  39. # [00:20] <Hixie> jgraham: sup?
  40. # [00:20] <annevk> I think my main input is gonna be 1) settle on handshake 2) settle on framing 3) keep it very simple; and generally try to explain where we are coming from
  41. # [00:20] <jgraham> Hixie: sup??
  42. # [00:21] <jgraham> (I have no idea what "sup?" means)
  43. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> "what's up"
  44. # [00:21] <jgraham> Is this some Google thing
  45. # [00:21] <annevk> no
  46. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> No, it's an american thing
  47. # [00:22] <jgraham> Are you all developing your own langauge
  48. # [00:22] <annevk> sup? is pretty normal
  49. # [00:22] <annevk> you should watch some more series or movies
  50. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> jgraham isn't down with the kid's slang these days
  51. # [00:22] <Hixie> jgraham: what do i need to look at?
  52. # [00:22] <annevk> lol
  53. # [00:22] <annevk> (at Hixie)
  54. # [00:23] <jgraham> Hixie: Well there has been a lot of discussion on the list
  55. # [00:23] <jgraham> Some more insane than others
  56. # [00:24] <jgraham> I think it would be nice to get some input from you, at least about the framing stuff, soon given the "4 week" timetable
  57. # [00:24] <jgraham> (much of the other stuff is irrelevant and can be ignored)
  58. # [00:24] <Hixie> k
  59. # [00:24] <jgraham> (at least in the short term)
  60. # [00:24] <Hixie> i looked earlier and didn't see anything new on the framing stuff
  61. # [00:24] <Hixie> but i'll look at the newer e-mails
  62. # [00:24] <annevk> the chunking stuff seems somewhat compelling
  63. # [00:25] <Hixie> chunking is pointless since the client can't do anything until it's received the whole message anyway, as far as i can tell
  64. # [00:25] <annevk> according to Yngve something like that might even get more efficient than varied length-encoding
  65. # [00:25] <jgraham> Basically at this point I think the IETF people will conclude that they have consensus around length-delimited frames
  66. # [00:25] <jgraham> s/delimited/marked/
  67. # [00:25] <annevk> chunking is for the server to not have to know the length of a very large message
  68. # [00:25] <franksalim> i think lengh prefixing is superior to a terminator, myself
  69. # [00:26] <Hixie> length prefixing when the data is UTF-8 is just asking for subtle bugs
  70. # [00:26] <franksalim> annevk, why not send fixed sized messages at the socket layer and implement chunking in your protocol?
  71. # [00:26] <Hixie> that's a non-starter
  72. # [00:26] <franksalim> plenty of protocols over tcp have chunking
  73. # [00:26] <Hixie> annevk: for text you don't need to know the length at all
  74. # [00:26] <franksalim> Hixie, i think the terminator approach asks for different, complimentary bugs
  75. # [00:27] <annevk> franksalim, yeah, I suppose you can implement chunking yourself
  76. # [00:27] <Hixie> franksalim: like what?
  77. # [00:27] <franksalim> for instance if server code allows non string data to be sent as strings accidentally
  78. # [00:27] <franksalim> i have already seen websocket libraries that make that mistake
  79. # [00:27] <franksalim> written by professionals no less
  80. # [00:27] <annevk> Hixie, yeah, this is for non-text; though some people seem to dislike the sentinel stuff too, but I'm not too convinced myself
  81. # [00:27] <franksalim> that accept byte slices and send as UTF-8
  82. # [00:27] <Hixie> franksalim: well if people are sending non-UTF-8 content, it doesn't much matter if they're sending lengths or terminators, the data is bogus anyway
  83. # [00:28] <Hixie> annevk: for non-text, we can do chunking, sure. That's a non-issue now since you can't send non-text.
  84. # [00:28] <jgraham> One argument for length markers was that it helps pre-allocating buffers
  85. # [00:28] <franksalim> why would we do chunking for one type and not another?
  86. # [00:29] <Hixie> so that people who don't need it don't have to do it
  87. # [00:29] <franksalim> also, i agree with folks on the list that it is best to spec binary now even though javascript will not be able to send/recv it
  88. # [00:29] <jgraham> Which seems to be good for avoiding typical buffer overflow bugs
  89. # [00:29] <Hixie> why?
  90. # [00:29] <Hixie> (^to franksalim)
  91. # [00:29] <franksalim> Hixie, i don't see why the api and the protocol need to be exactly in lock step
  92. # [00:29] <jgraham> Yay! Firefox unfroze!
  93. # [00:29] <annevk> binary is more or less defined already
  94. # [00:29] <franksalim> Hixie, i think we can _finish_ the protocol before TypedArray
  95. # [00:30] <annevk> it's %80 iirc
  96. # [00:30] <annevk> it's just invalid for now and not exposed
  97. # [00:30] <Hixie> franksalim: without knowing what the API is we can't design the protocol
  98. # [00:30] <franksalim> annevk, with the provision that type bytes will be defined later, right?
  99. # [00:30] <franksalim> Hixie, i don't think that is true
  100. # [00:30] <Hixie> jgraham: i don't see how you could possibly have a buffer overflow if you're not relying on someone telling you the length of the data
  101. # [00:30] <annevk> type bytes?
  102. # [00:30] <jgraham> It ran for 1763 seconds and then popped up the slow script dialog...
  103. # [00:30] <annevk> you mean like media streams?
  104. # [00:30] <franksalim> Hixie, i have put different APIs over the same protocol. I have also put the same API over different protocols
  105. # [00:31] <Hixie> jgraham: in fact, you're far more likely to have a buffer overflow with a length byte, since it's more likely that you'll allocate a buffer and then mistakenly inspect the data to read it in
  106. # [00:31] <Hixie> franksalim: i can't design a protocol without knowing the api.
  107. # [00:32] <Hixie> you can always jam things together and make them work, but that's not a good situation to be in.
  108. # [00:32] <franksalim> Hixie, what can i say to that?
  109. # [00:32] <annevk> while I'm gonna read and sleep some, keep this up; it's nice input :)
  110. # [00:32] <franksalim> Hixie, I can?
  111. # [00:32] <jgraham> Hixie: Anyway, it would be good if you have this discussion on the list
  112. # [00:32] <Hixie> we've had this discussion on the list
  113. # [00:32] <Hixie> multiple times over the last year or two
  114. # [00:32] <jgraham> Personally I am happy with either type of framing for text
  115. # [00:33] <Hixie> i don't see any point repeating what i've already said
  116. # [00:33] <jgraham> Hixie: I am pretty much 100% convinced that people will not be happy with that
  117. # [00:34] <Hixie> i'm not trying to make people happy, i'm trying to design a protocol
  118. # [00:34] <jgraham> Hixie: I don't think they see it like that either
  119. # [00:34] <Hixie> that's their problem :-)
  120. # [00:34] <jgraham> I think they think that the group is trying to design a protocol
  121. # [00:36] <franksalim> this can of worms would have been avoided completely by having the protocol be byte streams (like tcp) instead of discrete messages
  122. # [00:36] <franksalim> with byte streams it is clear you can do whatever you want and it is up to the next protocol up the stack to define structure, types, chunking, muxing
  123. # [00:37] <Hixie> byte streams would have to be exposed to JS, and I'm not at all convinced that your typical web dev can write code to handle byte streams well
  124. # [00:38] <franksalim> a typical web dev can't use opengl, either
  125. # [00:38] <boblet> are there any UTF-8 characters apart from & and > that need escaping in HTML5?
  126. # [00:38] <jgraham> Yeah, I think byte streams would be bad
  127. # [00:38] <franksalim> messaging protocols sitting on top of byte streams are equivalent to scene graphs on webgl
  128. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> boblet - you mean <, right?
  129. # [00:39] <Hixie> franksalim: i wasn't especially convinced that we should expose webgl either
  130. # [00:39] <boblet> TabAtkins: doh, yep
  131. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Then in most circumstances, yes. In some circumstances you'll want to escape ',", and >.
  132. # [00:40] <franksalim> Hixie, if one messaging protocol 'wins,' we can bake it in
  133. # [00:40] <boblet> TabAtkins: aah good point. you mean eg in alt text yeah?
  134. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  135. # [00:41] <franksalim> starting with a stripped down or half baked messaging protocol is the worst idea, imho
  136. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> If you're escaping attributes, escape ' and ". If you're escaping unquoted attributes, also escape > (as it can early-close the element in some circumstances).
  137. # [00:42] <jgraham> Anyway, bedtime
  138. # [00:42] <jgraham> Goodnight
  139. # [00:42] <boblet> jgraham: happy chocolate dreams
  140. # [00:42] <jgraham> :)
  141. # [00:43] <franksalim> Hixie, I should say that I am much happier with the frames we currently have than anything heavier weight that has been proposed
  142. # [00:44] <franksalim> because lightweight frames allow me to ignore framing and run a real protocol over a stream
  143. # [00:50] * Joins: weinig_ (~weinig@17.246.19.31)
  144. # [00:51] <franksalim> if your application messages and your wire messages are one and the same, then all the problems like chunking and addressing that have been raised are valid. if you treat websocket like tcp, you handle those concerns in your protocol of choice
  145. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> Why do all of these tests fail on Chrome? It's puzzling me. I don't seem to be able to easily make a reduced test case. http://aryeh.name/tmp/html5tests.html
  146. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> (not all, 20%, but whatever)
  147. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> (I'm idly writing some tests for basic easy-to-test-from-JS stuff, dunno if anyone has written any such so far)
  148. # [00:52] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feaf:7f36) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  149. # [00:52] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  150. # [00:54] * Joins: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  151. # [00:55] * Joins: seventh (seventh@64-9-158-56.fwd.datafoundry.com)
  152. # [00:57] * Quits: aroben|lunch (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: aroben|lunch)
  153. # [01:02] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-76c8e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  154. # [01:16] * Joins: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison)
  155. # [01:17] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
  156. # [01:18] * Quits: romeo_ (~romeo__@x1-6-00-07-95-57-08-bb.k233.webspeed.dk) (Quit: Leaving)
  157. # [01:19] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  158. # [01:25] <Hixie> what does "#...#" mean in php?
  159. # [01:27] <TabAtkins> Nothing.
  160. # [01:27] <Hixie> http://webreflection.blogspot.com/2010/06/websocket-handshake-76-simplified.html
  161. # [01:27] <Hixie> preg_match('#GET (.*?) HTTP#', $buffer, $match)
  162. # [01:27] <Hixie> why the "#"s?
  163. # [01:27] <TabAtkins> Oh, that's preg_match.
  164. # [01:27] <TabAtkins> Custom regex delimiters.
  165. # [01:28] <Hixie> aah
  166. # [01:29] <gsnedders> Whatever the first character is becomes the delimiter
  167. # [01:29] <Hixie> why isn't the " the delimiter?
  168. # [01:29] <gsnedders> (well, byte without the u flag)
  169. # [01:29] <gsnedders> Hixie: It's a string.
  170. # [01:30] <Hixie> i'm confused
  171. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> Because PHP is stupid.
  172. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> Obviously.
  173. # [01:30] <gsnedders> Hixie: preg_match is a function whose first argument is a string
  174. # [01:30] <Hixie> that's a given, i'm just trying to understand it :-)
  175. # [01:30] <Hixie> gsnedders: k
  176. # [01:30] <gsnedders> the string's value in that case is #GET (.*?) HTTP#
  177. # [01:30] <Hixie> right
  178. # [01:31] <gsnedders> Regexps don't exist at a syntaxual level in PHP
  179. # [01:31] <Hixie> sure
  180. # [01:31] <gsnedders> (That string is just passed to PCRE)
  181. # [01:31] <Hixie> but why isn't it just "GET (.*?) HTTP"
  182. # [01:31] <Hixie> oh does the PCRE expect its strings to be delimited or something?
  183. # [01:31] <gsnedders> Because that's what PCRE does :)
  184. # [01:31] <Hixie> that's lame
  185. # [01:32] <gsnedders> (you can have flags on the regexp after the ending delimiter)
  186. # [01:32] <Hixie> PCRE--
  187. # [01:32] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.19.31) (Remote host closed the connection)
  188. # [01:32] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feaf:7f36)
  189. # [01:32] <AryehGregor> The sane way to do it would be to have the flags as a separate argument.
  190. # [01:32] <AryehGregor> But PHP is not even slightly sane.
  191. # [01:33] <gsnedders> Well, this is just a side-effect of what PCRE does in this case
  192. # [01:33] <AryehGregor> PHP could put a wrapper around the PCRE call.
  193. # [01:33] <AryehGregor> Python uses PCRE too, doesn't it?
  194. # [01:33] <gsnedders> Nope
  195. # [01:33] <gsnedders> Python has its own regexp impl
  196. # [01:33] <AryehGregor> Okay, well, PHP could use Python's syntax, with an extra argument for flags.
  197. # [01:33] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: That would mean parsing the regexp itself
  198. # [01:33] <hober> I miss CL-PPCRE
  199. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> Then it could translate the flags to PCRE flags, sticking delimiters around it, and putting the flags at the end.
  200. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, why?
  201. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> Just have the wrapper add delimiters.
  202. # [01:34] <gsnedders> Oh, yeah, it could do that
  203. # [01:34] <gsnedders> But does [\/] work, for example?
  204. # [01:35] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  205. # [01:37] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  206. # [01:37] <AryehGregor> What do you mean?
  207. # [01:38] <gsnedders> Does the backscape actually escape there?
  208. # [01:38] <AryehGregor> Sure.
  209. # [01:38] <gsnedders> I had some memory of it not doing so, but it must
  210. # [01:39] * gsnedders is too tired
  211. # [01:42] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  212. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> Argh, getting 500 ms ping to my ISP. >:(
  213. # [01:44] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
  214. # [01:45] * Quits: meandi (~meandi@dynadsl-080-228-65-166.ewetel.net) (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
  215. # [01:47] * Joins: enzo66 (~epo@m3f0536d0.tmodns.net)
  216. # [01:51] * Quits: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  217. # [01:52] * Quits: enzo66 (~epo@m3f0536d0.tmodns.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  218. # [01:52] * Quits: seventh (seventh@64-9-158-56.fwd.datafoundry.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  219. # [01:56] <AryehGregor> If el is an element with an id attribute set, is "delete el['id'];" supposed to work the same as "el.removeAttribute('id');"?
  220. # [01:57] <AryehGregor> The spec doesn't appear to say what that's expected to do, but maybe I'm crazy for even suggesting it.
  221. # [01:57] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@EM114-48-21-108.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  222. # [01:59] * Quits: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-24-130-129-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving...)
  223. # [02:00] <AryehGregor> data:text/html,<!doctype html><script>var el = document.createElement("a"); var type = typeof el.id; delete el.id; alert(type + " " + typeof el.id);</script>
  224. # [02:00] <AryehGregor> That gives "string string" on Firefox and Opera, "string undefined" on WebKit.
  225. # [02:03] * Joins: seventh (seventh@64-9-158-59.fwd.datafoundry.com)
  226. # [02:03] * Quits: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  227. # [02:05] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-24-130-129-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: zzzzz)
  228. # [02:05] * AryehGregor files a bug
  229. # [02:06] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@EM111-188-69-14.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  230. # [02:06] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10267
  231. # [02:13] <Hixie> that's a WebIDL question
  232. # [02:13] <othermaciej> Hixie: that security paper on postMessage is fascinating
  233. # [02:13] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  234. # [02:14] <Hixie> it's depressing is what it is
  235. # [02:14] <AryehGregor> Hmm, okay.
  236. # [02:14] <othermaciej> I am going to have to spend some time reading that, as well as abarth et al's recent paper on applying a formal model to find security vulnerabilities in Origin checking, Referer checking, CORS, etc
  237. # [02:14] <Hixie> othermaciej: there's something to be said about academics writing papers about how I suck, but I don't know what it is :-P
  238. # [02:15] <othermaciej> Hixie: well, it's much better if the papers come soon enough to fix the suckage
  239. # [02:15] <Hixie> yeah i wish this kind of thing was sent to the mailing list while we were designing them rather than too late to fix the bugs
  240. # [02:15] <Hixie> but oh well
  241. # [02:17] <othermaciej> I wonder if it's possible to at least add interfaces that would allow for less error-prone postMessage use
  242. # [02:17] <othermaciej> like a version that doesn't take *, and on the receiving side forces you to check the sender origin (e.g. by providing a list of expected senders) to even get the message payload
  243. # [02:19] <Hixie> people could easily enough write that in a JS library if they wanted
  244. # [02:19] <othermaciej> they have some suggestions along similar lines
  245. # [02:20] <othermaciej> I guess the one suggestion from the paper that you can't implement in JS is wildcard-based multicast
  246. # [02:20] * Quits: jlebar (~jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-lywggvkufwtjzclc) (Quit: Leaving)
  247. # [02:20] <othermaciej> (so you could send with a target origin of '*.facebook.com' instead of '*')
  248. # [02:20] <AryehGregor> I think this is the relevant spec, but I can't figure out what it actually means: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#delete
  249. # [02:21] <othermaciej> (or a list)
  250. # [02:21] <AryehGregor> Is "delete element.id" supposed to set the id JavaScript attribute to undefined, or just remove the content attribute?
  251. # [02:21] <othermaciej> neither
  252. # [02:22] <Hixie> certainly not the latter
  253. # [02:22] <othermaciej> hmm I see a bug in the algorithm there
  254. # [02:22] <othermaciej> "If O has the DontDelete attribute, return false."
  255. # [02:22] <AryehGregor> What's the expected output of this test case? Chrome outputs "undefined", Firefox and Opera output "string": data:text/html,<!doctype html><script>var el = document.createElement("a"); delete el.id; alert(typeof el.id);</script>
  256. # [02:22] <othermaciej> it should be "If property P of O has the DontDelete attribute, return false."
  257. # [02:23] <othermaciej> and host object properties are DontDelete
  258. # [02:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: file a bug
  259. # [02:23] <othermaciej> (or in ES5 terms, not Configurable)
  260. # [02:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: otherwise that'll be lost
  261. # [02:23] <othermaciej> does Web IDL use bugzilla?
  262. # [02:24] <Hixie> i hope so
  263. # [02:24] <Hixie> otherwise we're not able to track bugs anywhere
  264. # [02:24] * Joins: jamesr (~jamesr@nat/google/x-isfqepxbzyozqpmo)
  265. # [02:24] <jamesr> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html links to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/
  266. # [02:24] <jamesr> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/ 404's
  267. # [02:24] <othermaciej> there is a component
  268. # [02:24] <Hixie> jamesr: again? wtf
  269. # [02:24] <Hixie> something is broken with my update code it seems
  270. # [02:25] <Hixie> jamesr: fixed
  271. # [02:25] <jamesr> yup, works now. thanks
  272. # [02:25] <jamesr> but wait
  273. # [02:26] <jamesr> is that really the multi page version?
  274. # [02:26] <Hixie> of?
  275. # [02:26] <jamesr> ah yes it is
  276. # [02:26] <othermaciej> weinig: if you have any interest in doing Web IDL edits any more, here is a trivial bug: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10269
  277. # [02:27] <othermaciej> weinig: I would Cc you but I'm not sure if you have a w3c bugzilla account
  278. # [02:32] <weinig> othermaciej: I have made the change
  279. # [02:32] <weinig> othermaciej: I will commit it shortly
  280. # [02:39] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  281. # [02:40] * Joins: boblet_ (~boblet@p1201-ipbf709osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  282. # [02:42] * Joins: dandaman (~Daniel.Sa@216.52.240.243)
  283. # [02:42] <dandaman> http://imgur.com/vqIcL
  284. # [02:42] <dandaman> see how the scrollbar messes up the <select> box
  285. # [02:42] <dandaman> anyone know how to fix that?
  286. # [02:43] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p1201-ipbf709osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  287. # [02:45] <AryehGregor> So does no one know what the expected behavior in my test case is, or are you just not telling me? :/
  288. # [02:45] * Quits: boblet_ (~boblet@p1201-ipbf709osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  289. # [02:45] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i'd have to read webidl to know the answer :-)
  290. # [02:46] <Hixie> i suspect the answer is either return false or throw an exception, and in either case don't touch the object
  291. # [02:46] <Hixie> but i could be wrong
  292. # [02:46] <Hixie> webidl should say
  293. # [02:48] <AryehGregor> It looks like it will run deletion steps if they're defined for the particular type, but I'd have to track down the meaning of a lot of jargon to figure out for sure.
  294. # [02:49] <AryehGregor> No, maybe not.
  295. # [02:49] * AryehGregor has no idea
  296. # [02:51] <AryehGregor> Chrome actually unsets the attribute. That's surely wrong, isn't it?
  297. # [02:53] <Hixie> yes
  298. # [02:54] <Hixie> wait, no it doesn't
  299. # [02:54] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/578
  300. # [02:54] <Hixie> oh you mean the IDL attribute
  301. # [02:54] <Hixie> that's probably wrong too, yes
  302. # [02:56] <AryehGregor> Okay, I'll file a bug against WebKit . . . or is this Chrome and not WebKit?
  303. # [02:56] <TabAtkins> That sounds like webkit.
  304. # [02:57] * mdelaney is now known as mdela|afk
  305. # [02:57] <jamesr> the bug is in the webkit repo even if it is chrome specific (the bindings live in the webkit svn repo)
  306. # [02:57] <jamesr> so file in bugs.webkit.org
  307. # [03:00] * Quits: seventh (seventh@64-9-158-59.fwd.datafoundry.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  308. # [03:02] <AryehGregor> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43224
  309. # [03:04] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: most DOM properties are DontDelete
  310. # [03:04] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: per Web IDL
  311. # [03:04] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: so according to the Web IDL spec, the delete algorithm should stop short
  312. # [03:04] <jamesr> AryehGregor: what's safari do?
  313. # [03:04] <AryehGregor> jamesr, I dunno, I'm on Linux.
  314. # [03:04] <jamesr> wondering if it's a v8 vs jsc bindings issue
  315. # [03:05] * Joins: titacgs (~titacgs@190.2.33.49)
  316. # [03:06] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: if you make a "live dom viewer" version of your test case I can try it in Safari
  317. # [03:06] <AryehGregor> A data URL won't work?
  318. # [03:06] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/578
  319. # [03:06] <othermaciej> I guess I can just copy it
  320. # [03:06] <othermaciej> this alerts "string" in Safari: <!doctype html><script>var el = document.createElement("a"); delete el.id; alert(typeof el.id);</script>
  321. # [03:07] <othermaciej> which I believe is correct per spec
  322. # [03:07] <AryehGregor> It's what Opera and Firefox do too.
  323. # [03:07] <othermaciej> if Chrome does not match, it is very likely a bug in the v8 DOM bindings
  324. # [03:07] * AryehGregor doesn't see a component for that
  325. # [03:08] <othermaciej> just put [V8] in the bug title
  326. # [03:08] <AryehGregor> Okay, now I'm off to bed.
  327. # [03:09] * Quits: mdela|afk (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0) (Quit: mdela|afk)
  328. # [03:21] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108)
  329. # [03:24] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  330. # [03:24] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@203-140-90-184.eonet.ne.jp)
  331. # [03:28] * Joins: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  332. # [03:28] * Quits: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  333. # [03:31] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-rhvwvccoheerymnl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  334. # [03:32] * Quits: aho (~nya@fuld-4d00d072.pool.mediaWays.net) (Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION)
  335. # [03:33] * Quits: cying (~cying@173-13-176-102-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: cying)
  336. # [03:34] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.57.59) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  337. # [03:40] * Joins: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.44.232)
  338. # [03:42] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  339. # [03:42] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-uofalupfxyueqhet)
  340. # [03:42] * Quits: bobchao (~cctw@112.105.140.77) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  341. # [03:53] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-cmgarbkopkuzsboy) (Remote host closed the connection)
  342. # [03:55] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-ckzwnnsdqlpjncyd)
  343. # [04:12] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  344. # [04:16] * Quits: jamesr (~jamesr@nat/google/x-isfqepxbzyozqpmo) (Quit: jamesr)
  345. # [04:40] * Quits: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-17-176.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
  346. # [04:41] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-17-176.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  347. # [04:42] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-udyvjcnejzcrrulu) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  348. # [04:46] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-uofalupfxyueqhet) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.7/20100723203751])
  349. # [04:47] * Quits: titacgs (~titacgs@190.2.33.49) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  350. # [04:56] * Joins: jamesr (~jamesr@c-24-6-103-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  351. # [04:58] * Joins: drunknbass (~drunknbas@76.91.255.83)
  352. # [04:59] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feaf:7f36) (Quit: weinig)
  353. # [05:01] * Joins: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-44-152.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  354. # [05:03] * Quits: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-44-152.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
  355. # [05:03] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.17.141) (Quit: othermaciej)
  356. # [05:03] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  357. # [05:04] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-17-176.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  358. # [05:05] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  359. # [05:10] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  360. # [05:12] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-ckzwnnsdqlpjncyd) (Remote host closed the connection)
  361. # [05:15] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@67.218.109.67)
  362. # [05:17] * Quits: jamesr (~jamesr@c-24-6-103-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: jamesr)
  363. # [05:17] * Joins: bobchao (~cctw@DHCP-21133.iis.sinica.edu.tw)
  364. # [05:25] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@EM111-188-69-14.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: kennyluck)
  365. # [05:38] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-156-8.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  366. # [05:53] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@67.218.109.67) (Remote host closed the connection)
  367. # [05:59] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  368. # [06:06] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-76-21-40-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  369. # [06:10] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  370. # [06:11] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@203-140-90-184.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  371. # [06:11] * Joins: hamcore (hamcore@unaffiliated/msmosso)
  372. # [06:28] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-4-120-70.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  373. # [06:33] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-4-120-70.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
  374. # [06:34] * Joins: WilliamC (~WilliamC@nc-76-5-186-154.dhcp.embarqhsd.net)
  375. # [06:37] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  376. # [06:38] <WilliamC> So, how is the debate of Theora v. h.256, or whatever the number is, going?
  377. # [06:42] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  378. # [06:51] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  379. # [06:54] * Joins: paul_irish_ (~paul_iris@c-76-21-40-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  380. # [07:03] * Joins: homata (~homata@e0109-119-107-218-50.uqwimax.jp)
  381. # [07:10] * Quits: homata (~homata@e0109-119-107-218-50.uqwimax.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  382. # [07:10] <Hixie> WilliamC: it's now Theora vs h.264 vs WebM
  383. # [07:14] <WilliamC> WebM?
  384. # [07:15] <Hixie> the format google released a few weeks ago
  385. # [07:16] <WilliamC> Wonder which one is better
  386. # [07:18] * Joins: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@ppp167-253-233.static.internode.on.net)
  387. # [07:18] * Joins: nielsle (~nielsle@1503032406.dhcp.dbnet.dk)
  388. # [07:19] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@1503032406.dhcp.dbnet.dk) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  389. # [07:19] * Quits: broquaint (524a9520b7@spc2-brig11-0-0-cust40.asfd.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  390. # [07:22] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  391. # [07:22] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  392. # [07:24] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  393. # [07:36] * Quits: hamcore (hamcore@unaffiliated/msmosso)
  394. # [07:49] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-76-21-40-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  395. # [07:49] * Quits: paul_irish_ (~paul_iris@c-76-21-40-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  396. # [07:57] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-4-120-70.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  397. # [07:58] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  398. # [08:04] * Quits: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: roc)
  399. # [08:07] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  400. # [08:14] * Joins: zibin (~zibin@219.236.246.147)
  401. # [08:14] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  402. # [08:15] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  403. # [08:18] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@203-140-90-184.eonet.ne.jp)
  404. # [08:19] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  405. # [08:23] <Hixie> i really don't understand the vision people on hybi have for websockets
  406. # [08:24] <Hixie> in what world does it make sense to talk about websockets messages being "dispatched using the platform's mime mechanism"?
  407. # [08:26] * Joins: annevk5 (~annevk@5355737B.cable.casema.nl)
  408. # [08:27] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-44-152.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  409. # [08:32] * Quits: zibin (~zibin@219.236.246.147) (Quit: zibin)
  410. # [08:36] <micheil> I haven't followed along on that conversation, Hixie
  411. # [08:36] <micheil> although, some of the things proposed do sound a little bit more complicated then what's needed
  412. # [08:36] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3602:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7)
  413. # [08:38] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3602:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7) (Client Quit)
  414. # [08:38] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@133.27.228.172)
  415. # [08:44] * Joins: zibin (~zibin@219.236.246.147)
  416. # [08:44] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  417. # [08:45] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
  418. # [08:50] * Joins: estellevw (~estelle@adsl-76-254-4-20.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  419. # [08:54] * Quits: annevk5 (~annevk@5355737B.cable.casema.nl) (Quit: annevk5)
  420. # [08:55] <Hixie> micheil: it's not so much that they're complicated so much as as far as i can tell, they make no sense at all
  421. # [08:55] <Hixie> it'd be like if someone was talking about how HTTP should allow you to change nick
  422. # [08:55] <micheil> okay, similar idea
  423. # [08:55] <Hixie> or if someone was talking about how IRC didn't let you select the printer driver
  424. # [08:55] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  425. # [08:56] <micheil> well of course irc should let you choose your printer driver, isn't that what your irc server does?
  426. # [08:56] <micheil> my included the kitchen sink.
  427. # [08:59] <hsivonen> less than 24 hours left on the current HTML WG polls
  428. # [09:00] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  429. # [09:04] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@adsl-242-206-38.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Quit: Core Breach)
  430. # [09:10] <jgraham> Hixie: The MIME stuff confuses the hell out of me
  431. # [09:10] <jgraham> I have no idea why you would want that
  432. # [09:15] <annevk> well, it's pretty clear Greg still wants his bidirectional HTTP rather than TCP for browsers
  433. # [09:15] <annevk> but I don't get why he argues for mime for the whole stream
  434. # [09:15] <annevk> that makes no sense at all
  435. # [09:20] <hsivonen> do those who want bidi HTTP want it to be implemented in browsers?
  436. # [09:21] <jgraham> hsivonen: I guess so
  437. # [09:21] <jgraham> But it's not clear what they rally envision
  438. # [09:21] <jgraham> *really
  439. # [09:21] <jgraham> e.g. there was lots of stuff about doing dispatch based on content-type
  440. # [09:22] <jgraham> But in most websockets cases I can think of, that makes no sense
  441. # [09:22] <jgraham> Anyway, my conclusion is that the whole thing is just a bad idea because it is additional complexity
  442. # [09:22] <jgraham> and makes the protocol less generic
  443. # [09:23] <jgraham> I am more worried by real issues like framing / the handshake
  444. # [09:24] <hsivonen> what's the real problem with those?
  445. # [09:24] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~hb@80.199.116.190.static.peytz.dk)
  446. # [09:25] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@adsl-242-206-38.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  447. # [09:27] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-76c8e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  448. # [09:28] <jgraham> For the handshake there is some question about the security properties
  449. # [09:28] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  450. # [09:28] <jgraham> Although it looks like wss will change
  451. # [09:29] <jgraham> For the framing there is a tenion between the belief that sentinal markers are more secure when sending, and that it is harder to write the recieving code
  452. # [09:30] <Hixie> the only change i'm aware of for wss: is the minor addition of the hook into the nextprotoneg feature
  453. # [09:31] <jgraham> Hixie: That was what I meant, I think
  454. # [09:32] <Hixie> k
  455. # [09:32] <Hixie> that's not much of a change :-)
  456. # [09:32] <hsivonen> this stuff really needs to be wrapped up and shipped
  457. # [09:33] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: zzzzz)
  458. # [09:37] <hsivonen> have there been any positive effects from taking the protocol to the IETF?
  459. # [09:39] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  460. # [09:44] * Quits: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@ppp167-253-233.static.internode.on.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716])
  461. # [09:47] * Joins: homata (~homata@e0109-119-107-237-139.uqwimax.jp)
  462. # [09:50] * Quits: homata (~homata@e0109-119-107-237-139.uqwimax.jp) (Client Quit)
  463. # [09:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: no
  464. # [09:54] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl)
  465. # [09:56] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  466. # [09:58] * Parts: estellevw (~estelle@adsl-76-254-4-20.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  467. # [09:59] * Joins: pg30123 (cbc0a2fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.203.192.162.252)
  468. # [10:03] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  469. # [10:04] * kennyluck waves to MikeSmith
  470. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: hey
  471. # [10:05] <kennyluck> Hey, Mike, I want to introduce you my friend, pg30123.
  472. # [10:05] <pg30123> Hi
  473. # [10:05] <kennyluck> He is my high school classmate and very interested in HTML5.
  474. # [10:05] <kennyluck> Most importantly, he's going to be a google employee next year :)
  475. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> pg30123: hi there
  476. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> excellent
  477. # [10:06] <kennyluck> Of course I want him to help promote W3C-related work in Taiwan. Hehe.
  478. # [10:06] <pg30123> lol
  479. # [10:06] * Joins: foolip (~foolip@83.218.67.122)
  480. # [10:06] <kennyluck> There's little information about HTML5 in Taiwan, honestly.
  481. # [10:07] <pg30123> But to begin with, I should mention that I am interested in it but not familiar with it..
  482. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> http://diveintohtml5.org/ is a good place to start learning
  483. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> and http://html5doctor.com/
  484. # [10:08] <kennyluck> MikeSmith: Also he is interested in (using) P2P technology. :)
  485. # [10:08] <pg30123> =.=
  486. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> and for a quick overview of the differences from HTML4, http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/
  487. # [10:08] <kennyluck> I noticed that recently there's some discussion about possible P2P with HTML5?
  488. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> yeah
  489. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> Hixie has a draft spec of an idea
  490. # [10:09] <kennyluck> pointer?
  491. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/commands.html#peer-to-peer-connections
  492. # [10:09] <kennyluck> Ah, thanks. How new is this, I wonder.
  493. # [10:09] <Hixie> in particular, http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-July/027129.html
  494. # [10:10] <kennyluck> Thanks!
  495. # [10:11] <Hixie> nn
  496. # [10:11] <pg30123> Speaking of P2P, is there some kind of real-time video streaming of sharing methods available now?
  497. # [10:18] * Quits: jochen__ (~jochen@nat/google/x-lvvlmdjbsppuelxw) (Remote host closed the connection)
  498. # [10:23] * Joins: jochen__ (~jochen@nat/google/x-fubnehjtculvwgoa)
  499. # [10:27] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  500. # [10:27] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  501. # [10:28] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  502. # [10:32] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  503. # [10:39] <hsivonen> pg30123: we only have server to browser streaming at the moment. no p2p
  504. # [10:40] * Joins: payman_s (~payman@77.72.99.119)
  505. # [10:40] * Joins: roc (~roc@121.98.230.221)
  506. # [10:40] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  507. # [10:41] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.75.31)
  508. # [10:41] * Joins: broquaint (ea071e1074@spc2-brig11-0-0-cust40.asfd.cable.virginmedia.com)
  509. # [10:41] <pg30123> hsivonen: thx!
  510. # [10:43] <kennyluck> pg30123 was thinking about implementing PPS with HTML5. :p
  511. # [10:46] * Joins: zdenekkostal (~Miranda@ip-89-102-182-215.net.upc.cz)
  512. # [10:49] * Joins: Phae (~Phae@chimera.macmillan.com)
  513. # [10:50] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  514. # [10:50] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  515. # [10:51] * Slaanesh| is now known as Slaanesh
  516. # [10:53] * Joins: oal (~oal@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net)
  517. # [10:55] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-4-120-70.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
  518. # [10:56] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-199-144.dynamic.qsc.de)
  519. # [11:01] * Joins: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-22-216.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  520. # [11:04] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-44-152.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  521. # [11:09] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@a91-154-42-50.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  522. # [11:09] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  523. # [11:13] <jgraham> What is supposed to happen if I set some_element.spellcheck = true;
  524. # [11:13] <jgraham> Note: not "true"
  525. # [11:13] <jgraham> Or equally some_element.spellcheck = 0;
  526. # [11:14] <payman_s> From spartan log: "Child is a zombie; attempting to reap him..."
  527. # [11:14] <jgraham> payman_s: Wrong window?
  528. # [11:14] <jgraham> Anyway spellcheck...
  529. # [11:15] <jgraham> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/editing.html#attr-spellcheck
  530. # [11:15] <jgraham> talks about setting the IRL attribute to "true", "false" and "default" or otherwise raising an error
  531. # [11:15] <jgraham> *IDL
  532. # [11:16] <jgraham> But then says
  533. # [11:16] <Workshiva> To the specmobile
  534. # [11:16] <jgraham> """On setting, if the new value is true, then the element's spellcheck content attribute must be set to the literal string "true", otherwise it must be set to the literal string "false"."""
  535. # [11:18] <Workshiva> That second part probably predates the tristate version?
  536. # [11:18] <payman_s> jgraham: yes, sorry.
  537. # [11:18] <jgraham> payman_s: :)
  538. # [11:18] <jgraham> Workshiva: Coud be
  539. # [11:19] * jgraham wonders WDG(&W)D
  540. # [11:19] <Philip`> Why would spellcheck = true differ from spellcheck = "true"?
  541. # [11:19] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool86.cs.man.ac.uk)
  542. # [11:19] <Philip`> WebIDL should convert true to "true" before HTML5 looks at it
  543. # [11:19] <Workshiva> Philip`: Because I haven't confirmed that WebIDL transforms boolean true into 'true' yet
  544. # [11:19] <jgraham> true isn't an ascii case insenitive match for "true"
  545. # [11:19] <jgraham> is it?
  546. # [11:20] <Workshiva> I was looking for the IDL definition of spellcheck to make sure it was DOMString
  547. # [11:20] <Philip`> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-DOMString
  548. # [11:20] <Philip`> It basically just does ToString
  549. # [11:20] <Philip`> Workshiva: It is
  550. # [11:20] <Workshiva> You're so quick!
  551. # [11:20] <Philip`> (Defined on HTMLElement)
  552. # [11:21] <jgraham> But 0 shouldn't work, right
  553. # [11:22] <jgraham> or 1
  554. # [11:22] <Workshiva> Correct
  555. # [11:22] <Philip`> That'll become "0" which isn't "true" or "false" or "default"
  556. # [11:22] <Philip`> so no
  557. # [11:22] <Workshiva> But the paragraph still needs correction
  558. # [11:22] <Workshiva> There's also a false" without the leading "
  559. # [11:22] <jgraham> The paragraph makes no sense
  560. # [11:23] <jgraham> Or at least the trailing sentence should go
  561. # [11:23] <Workshiva> Yeah
  562. # [11:23] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  563. # [11:23] <jgraham> Also it seems that throwing a syntax_err is not web compatible
  564. # [11:30] * Quits: bobchao (~cctw@DHCP-21133.iis.sinica.edu.tw) (Quit: Leaving.)
  565. # [11:32] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  566. # [11:32] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  567. # [11:33] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  568. # [11:37] * Quits: zdenekkostal (~Miranda@ip-89-102-182-215.net.upc.cz) (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
  569. # [11:40] * Quits: jochen__ (~jochen@nat/google/x-fubnehjtculvwgoa) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  570. # [11:41] * Parts: pg30123 (cbc0a2fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.203.192.162.252)
  571. # [11:41] * Joins: homata (~homata@e0109-119-107-237-139.uqwimax.jp)
  572. # [11:42] * Joins: jochen__ (~jochen@nat/google/x-raqmdbkteawdpcks)
  573. # [11:50] <jgraham> """With length-prefixed frames, if one endpoint *does* miscalculate the size of a UTF-8 string, the protocol will detect it.""" - can someone explain this to me?
  574. # [11:52] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@213.41.141.234)
  575. # [11:56] * Quits: homata (~homata@e0109-119-107-237-139.uqwimax.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  576. # [11:58] <Philip`> jgraham: No
  577. # [11:59] <Philip`> Well, I suppose you could make the frames length-prefixed *and* null-terminated
  578. # [11:59] <Philip`> so that the protocol has a reliable way to detect framing errors
  579. # [12:00] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@U017209.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  580. # [12:00] <Philip`> s/null/0xff/
  581. # [12:01] <jgraham> Philip`: I was wondering about that
  582. # [12:02] <Philip`> Otherwise it doesn't seem like the protocol will have any reliable sync points
  583. # [12:02] <jgraham> I wonder if it is a bad idea for some obvious reason
  584. # [12:02] <Philip`> It's bad because people will implement the length-prefix and ignore the terminator, or ignore the length-prefix and implement the terminator
  585. # [12:02] <Philip`> and it will still work most of the time
  586. # [12:02] <jgraham> Yeah :(
  587. # [12:03] <Philip`> until they get UTF-8 or until they get attacked
  588. # [12:06] <Philip`> Has anyone written a WebSockets server validator yet, which tests its handling of edge cases? If that was sufficiently good and sufficiently well known then I expect pretty much everybody would use it, and it'd help avoid a lot of bugs
  589. # [12:06] <jgraham> No, but it does seem like a good idea
  590. # [12:06] <Philip`> Is anyone planning to write one?
  591. # [12:06] <jgraham> I asked if anyone planned to write tests, but didn;t get any replies
  592. # [12:07] <Philip`> (with a more detailed plan than "someone should write on")
  593. # [12:07] <jgraham> I guess it could go on my "list of things that would be quite a good idea to do but I would much prefer if someone else did"
  594. # [12:08] * Quits: jochen__ (~jochen@nat/google/x-raqmdbkteawdpcks) (Remote host closed the connection)
  595. # [12:10] <othermaciej> jgraham, Philip`: I think what he's saying is that frames are prefixed with a byte identifying the frame type, then the length
  596. # [12:11] <othermaciej> if you don't see the frame type byte after reading the length, you know you have missed your boundary
  597. # [12:11] <othermaciej> however, I don't think the protocol can safely resync, because you have no guarantee that your frame type byte won't be present in another message (if you read too far)
  598. # [12:13] * Joins: jochen__ (~jochen@nat/google/x-lzkfmfcdjbpjwypc)
  599. # [12:17] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  600. # [12:22] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-199-144.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  601. # [12:26] <hsivonen> what's Hixie's plan for binary? length or sentinel+stuffing?
  602. # [12:26] <hsivonen> (length makes sense for binary, because data stuffing is annoying)
  603. # [12:26] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@203-140-90-184.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  604. # [12:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: I assume length
  605. # [12:27] * Joins: colapop_ (~colapop@68-190-151-103.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com)
  606. # [12:28] <Workshiva> It was going to be length in the past, I haven't followed it to know if that has changed
  607. # [12:28] * Quits: colapop (~colapop@68-190-151-103.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  608. # [12:28] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  609. # [12:31] * Joins: annevk5 (~annevk@dhcp-34dd.meeting.ietf.org)
  610. # [12:31] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@a91-154-42-50.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  611. # [12:32] <Philip`> If by "plan" you mean "what's already described in the spec for binary frames (which are non-conforming to send or to process)", then they're length-prefixed
  612. # [12:32] <Philip`> (with an arbitrary-length integer)
  613. # [12:32] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-199-144.dynamic.qsc.de)
  614. # [12:35] <annevk5> so far I have not recognized a single person here
  615. # [12:35] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.75.31) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  616. # [12:35] <annevk5> except for Yngve, who spotted me
  617. # [12:44] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.75.31)
  618. # [12:46] <Philip`> "the server has to take the digits from the value to obtain a number [...], then divide that number by the number of spaces" - how many servers are going to crash when you send a string with zero spaces?
  619. # [12:48] <jgraham> Philip`: All the ones that didn't follow step 5 closely?
  620. # [12:48] <jgraham> (and abort in that case)
  621. # [12:49] <jgraham> Or step 6
  622. # [12:51] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  623. # [12:52] * Quits: annevk5 (~annevk@dhcp-34dd.meeting.ietf.org) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  624. # [12:53] <Philip`> jgraham: I see some implementations that appear to forget that
  625. # [12:54] <jgraham> Philip`: Hmm, that seems unfortunate
  626. # [12:55] <Workshiva> You should add an ellipsis before "unfortunate"
  627. # [12:55] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  628. # [12:55] <MikeSmith> annevk: where?
  629. # [12:55] <MikeSmith> ah
  630. # [12:55] <MikeSmith> IETF78
  631. # [12:58] <Philip`> It also looks like server implementations tend to reject frame types != 0
  632. # [12:58] <Philip`> which kind of breaks the whole extensibility model
  633. # [13:00] <jgraham> Philip`: I thought that was expected
  634. # [13:01] <jgraham> If a client tries to send binary to a server taht can't deal with it, the server disconnects
  635. # [13:01] <jgraham> The extensibility model is not purely about having different frame types
  636. # [13:02] <jgraham> Also about being able to do feature negotiation in headers and so on
  637. # [13:04] * workmad3 is now known as wm3|lunch
  638. # [13:05] * Joins: taf2 (~taf2@pool-98-117-223-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
  639. # [13:05] <Philip`> Hmm, I don't immediately see a bit in the spec saying the server should disconnect
  640. # [13:06] <Philip`> It looks like it should discard the bytes, then set /error/ to true, in which case *a WebSocket error has been detected*, and that's all
  641. # [13:08] * Joins: annevk5 (~annevk@dhcp-704e.meeting.ietf.org)
  642. # [13:09] <jgraham> If /type/ is not a 0x00 byte, then the server may abort these steps and either immediately disconnect from the client or set the /client terminated/ flag.
  643. # [13:09] <annevk5> someone from Microsoft is here
  644. # [13:09] <annevk5> he's going to edit the requirements document
  645. # [13:09] <annevk5> he says he's new in apps
  646. # [13:09] <jgraham> Philip`: Isn't that the relevant bit?
  647. # [13:11] <Philip`> jgraham: Oh, looks like I was looking at the UA framing algorithm instead
  648. # [13:11] <jgraham> Philip`: Yeah
  649. # [13:11] <Philip`> which is helpfully titled just "Data framing"
  650. # [13:13] * Quits: zibin (~zibin@219.236.246.147) (Quit: zibin)
  651. # [13:15] * Quits: foolip (~foolip@83.218.67.122) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  652. # [13:19] * Quits: taf2 (~taf2@pool-98-117-223-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: taf2)
  653. # [13:19] * Quits: yutak_home (~kee@U017209.ppp.dion.ne.jp) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  654. # [13:20] * Quits: Phae (~Phae@chimera.macmillan.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  655. # [13:22] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  656. # [13:23] * Joins: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  657. # [13:25] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  658. # [13:27] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  659. # [13:28] * Quits: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving)
  660. # [13:33] * wm3|lunch is now known as workmad3
  661. # [13:34] * Joins: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk)
  662. # [13:36] * Joins: foolip (~foolip@83.218.67.122)
  663. # [13:42] * Quits: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  664. # [13:43] <annevk5> we went through requirements
  665. # [13:43] <annevk5> nothing really controversial
  666. # [13:43] <annevk5> friendly group
  667. # [13:43] * Joins: TandonR (~chatzilla@c-71-233-119-126.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  668. # [13:43] <jgraham> annevk5: Did the whole "amateur" thing come up?
  669. # [13:44] <hsivonen> annevk5: what's the deal with the mailing list looking like it's full of controversy?
  670. # [13:45] <annevk5> jgraham, nope
  671. # [13:45] <jgraham> annevk5: OK
  672. # [13:45] <annevk5> hsivonen, we haven't gotten to the bad parts yet I think
  673. # [13:47] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  674. # [13:49] <Lachy> whatwg.org seems to be running really slowly today.
  675. # [13:49] <Lachy> even hixie.ch is takes forever to respond.
  676. # [13:53] * Quits: TandonR (~chatzilla@c-71-233-119-126.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.0.19/2010031422])
  677. # [13:56] <annevk5> nobody here in favor of sentinel framing
  678. # [13:56] <jgraham> Not that surprsing
  679. # [13:57] <annevk5> I don't really feel strongly so I didn't comment
  680. # [13:57] <jgraham> Have they discussed the actual arguments that Hixie put forward?
  681. # [13:57] <annevk5> not really
  682. # [13:57] <annevk5> "learn to count" was the argument
  683. # [13:57] <jgraham> Fuck
  684. # [13:57] <annevk5> maybe I should have spoken up
  685. # [13:57] <annevk5> hmm
  686. # [13:58] <jgraham> If they don't have a better argument than that we will reach an impass
  687. # [13:58] <jgraham> e
  688. # [13:58] <hsivonen> "learn to count" isn't compelling at this stage of implementations getting shipped
  689. # [13:59] <jgraham> It's not compelling full stop
  690. # [13:59] * Joins: nielsle (~nielsle@1503032406.dhcp.dbnet.dk)
  691. # [14:00] * Joins: taf2 (~taf2@pool-98-117-223-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
  692. # [14:00] <jgraham> A trivial amount of time with google and the string UnicodeDecodeError will show you how common it is to not get encoding/decoding strings right
  693. # [14:00] <jgraham> "learn to count" is denial
  694. # [14:03] * Joins: reschke (~chatzilla@2001:df8:0:128:951e:eeed:c876:96ec)
  695. # [14:03] <reschke> Can you *please* raise your concerns in the IETF chat room?
  696. # [14:04] * Quits: reschke (~chatzilla@2001:df8:0:128:951e:eeed:c876:96ec) (Client Quit)
  697. # [14:04] * jgraham doesn't have a jabber client that does group stuff
  698. # [14:04] <Ms2ger> Did someone say "denial"?
  699. # [14:05] <hsivonen> I guess it would be easier to ask annevk5 to channel jgraham than to join the not-IRC chat room...
  700. # [14:06] <annevk5> I raised the concern about impasse
  701. # [14:06] <annevk5> but that was dismissed
  702. # [14:06] <annevk5> although it seems relevant
  703. # [14:07] <Ms2ger> How very surprising
  704. # [14:07] <annevk5> as someone later told me, but he was not the chair or the AD
  705. # [14:07] * Joins: fluffy_ (406719e9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.103.25.233)
  706. # [14:07] <jgraham> If we dismiss concerns of an impasse we are sure to reach one
  707. # [14:07] <annevk5> hsivonen, I channelled jgraham but that was not acceptable
  708. # [14:08] <hsivonen> annevk5: not acceptable in the sense that to be heard, one must be present or have an IETF-meeting-compatible Jabber setup?
  709. # [14:09] <annevk5> I think so
  710. # [14:09] <hsivonen> :-(
  711. # [14:09] <annevk5> it seemed rather weird to me as the concern about an impasse should concern all
  712. # [14:09] <annevk5> if you have a google account it's pretty easy
  713. # [14:12] * Quits: jochen__ (~jochen@nat/google/x-lzkfmfcdjbpjwypc) (Remote host closed the connection)
  714. # [14:13] <hsivonen> http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/201007/msg00089.html
  715. # [14:14] <annevk5> people are now discussing all the ways you can do length encoding
  716. # [14:15] <jgraham> Hmm, well I managed to join the room
  717. # [14:16] <jgraham> Note to any empathy developers: your UI is crap
  718. # [14:16] <annevk5> pidgin is ok
  719. # [14:16] <jgraham> Or I am grumpy today
  720. # [14:16] <jgraham> or both
  721. # [14:16] <annevk5> i'm using Adium for mac atm
  722. # [14:16] <gsnedders> jgraham: You're always grumpy.
  723. # [14:16] <annevk5> worse than Opera IRC
  724. # [14:16] <jgraham> I am unusually grumpy today :(
  725. # [14:18] <annevk5> ping me here if you say anything; I'll relay in case it falls through
  726. # [14:23] * Quits: taf2 (~taf2@pool-98-117-223-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: taf2)
  727. # [14:24] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  728. # [14:25] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  729. # [14:25] <jgraham> annevk5: It is not really possible to follow much of what is going on from the jabber
  730. # [14:25] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl) (Quit: Necrathex)
  731. # [14:26] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  732. # [14:26] * Joins: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl)
  733. # [14:26] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  734. # [14:26] * Joins: zdenekkostal (~Miranda@ip-89-102-182-215.net.upc.cz)
  735. # [14:26] * Joins: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl)
  736. # [14:27] * Joins: Lars1 (~Adium@2001:df8:0:32:225:ff:fe45:eccf)
  737. # [14:31] * Quits: Lars1 (~Adium@2001:df8:0:32:225:ff:fe45:eccf) (Client Quit)
  738. # [14:31] * Joins: larse (~Adium@2001:df8:0:32:225:ff:fe45:eccf)
  739. # [14:32] * Joins: taf2 (~taf2@173-13-232-33-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  740. # [14:33] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@213.41.141.234) (Remote host closed the connection)
  741. # [14:34] <annevk5> jgraham, there should be an audio channel
  742. # [14:34] * Quits: larse (~Adium@2001:df8:0:32:225:ff:fe45:eccf) (Client Quit)
  743. # [14:34] * Joins: larse (~Nokia@2001:df8:0:32:225:ff:fe45:eccf)
  744. # [14:34] * Quits: larse (~Nokia@2001:df8:0:32:225:ff:fe45:eccf) (Client Quit)
  745. # [14:34] * Joins: larse (~Nokia@2001:df8:0:32:225:ff:fe45:eccf)
  746. # [14:34] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl)
  747. # [14:36] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@c-71-58-77-15.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  748. # [14:37] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@c-71-58-77-15.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Changing host)
  749. # [14:37] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  750. # [14:40] <Workshiva> So what kind of magic must I do to chrome to get an actual stacktrace in the console?
  751. # [14:40] * Quits: zdenekkostal (~Miranda@ip-89-102-182-215.net.upc.cz) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  752. # [14:43] <jgraham> annevk5: You just said what I was thinking
  753. # [14:44] * Joins: zdenekkostal (~Miranda@ip-89-102-182-215.net.upc.cz)
  754. # [14:44] * Quits: fluffy_ (406719e9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.103.25.233) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  755. # [14:44] <annevk5> the queue here just gets longer
  756. # [14:48] * Joins: romeo_ (~romeo__@x1-6-00-07-95-57-08-bb.k38.webspeed.dk)
  757. # [14:52] * Quits: zdenekkostal (~Miranda@ip-89-102-182-215.net.upc.cz) (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
  758. # [14:52] * Joins: bobchao (~cctw@112.105.140.77)
  759. # [14:53] * Joins: Cullen (~Adium@nat/cisco/x-walhtthfoibpkrvr)
  760. # [14:59] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.75.31) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  761. # [15:00] <annevk5> now it's about if a message (event) has the potential to consist of multiple frames
  762. # [15:00] <annevk5> i think it was clear long ago this was not controversial
  763. # [15:04] * Joins: tlr (~tlr@dhcp-63f4.meeting.ietf.org)
  764. # [15:17] * Quits: Cullen (~Adium@nat/cisco/x-walhtthfoibpkrvr) (Quit: Leaving.)
  765. # [15:17] * Quits: tlr (~tlr@dhcp-63f4.meeting.ietf.org) (Quit: tlr)
  766. # [15:18] * Quits: annevk5 (~annevk@dhcp-704e.meeting.ietf.org) (Quit: annevk5)
  767. # [15:19] * Parts: larse (~Nokia@2001:df8:0:32:225:ff:fe45:eccf)
  768. # [15:24] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.75.31)
  769. # [15:51] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com)
  770. # [15:53] * colapop_ is now known as colapop
  771. # [15:56] * Joins: espadrine (~thaddee_t@AMontsouris-157-1-53-222.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  772. # [16:01] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-76c8e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  773. # [16:05] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~hb@80.199.116.190.static.peytz.dk) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  774. # [16:11] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@U017209.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  775. # [16:13] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.75.31) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  776. # [16:16] * Joins: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.159.231)
  777. # [16:18] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl) (Quit: kthxbye!)
  778. # [16:23] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@dslb-094-223-090-112.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  779. # [16:27] * Joins: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  780. # [16:31] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  781. # [16:33] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  782. # [16:36] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-76-21-40-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  783. # [16:38] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool86.cs.man.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  784. # [16:39] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  785. # [16:40] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl)
  786. # [16:43] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@92.86.252.131)
  787. # [16:45] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-76-21-40-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  788. # [16:46] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  789. # [16:47] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-76-21-40-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  790. # [16:48] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  791. # [16:49] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@213.41.141.234)
  792. # [16:52] * Quits: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.159.231) (Remote host closed the connection)
  793. # [17:05] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-22-216.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  794. # [17:06] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  795. # [17:10] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  796. # [17:20] * Joins: richardschwerdtf (~RichS@99-39-114-91.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net)
  797. # [17:22] * Joins: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.159.231)
  798. # [17:29] * Joins: pauld (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2)
  799. # [17:31] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@213.41.141.234) (Remote host closed the connection)
  800. # [17:34] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  801. # [17:39] * Quits: pauld (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2) (Remote host closed the connection)
  802. # [17:40] * Parts: espadrine (~thaddee_t@AMontsouris-157-1-53-222.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  803. # [17:41] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
  804. # [17:41] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-108-160.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  805. # [17:42] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  806. # [17:43] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  807. # [17:43] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-qsijtshgtwasgira)
  808. # [17:46] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  809. # [17:53] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-76-21-40-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  810. # [17:57] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  811. # [17:58] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  812. # [17:58] * Joins: jonnybarnes (~jonnybarn@host86-150-85-16.range86-150.btcentralplus.com)
  813. # [18:01] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@67.218.109.67)
  814. # [18:01] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl) (Quit: davidhund)
  815. # [18:05] * Quits: foolip (~foolip@83.218.67.122) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  816. # [18:07] * Quits: jonnybarnes (~jonnybarn@host86-150-85-16.range86-150.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
  817. # [18:15] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  818. # [18:28] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  819. # [18:30] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  820. # [18:31] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-199-144.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  821. # [18:31] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  822. # [18:35] * Joins: annevk5 (~annevk@n158.infopact.nl)
  823. # [18:40] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@67.218.109.67) (Remote host closed the connection)
  824. # [18:41] * Joins: jlebar (~jlebar@63.245.220.220)
  825. # [18:42] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  826. # [18:46] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-fdtzwjllfgxhtjgz)
  827. # [18:53] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  828. # [19:02] * Joins: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-67-180-92-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  829. # [19:07] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@80-186-88-120.elisa-mobile.fi)
  830. # [19:10] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  831. # [19:11] * Quits: annevk5 (~annevk@n158.infopact.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  832. # [19:17] * Quits: taf2 (~taf2@173-13-232-33-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: taf2)
  833. # [19:19] * Joins: nickrathert (~IceChat7@75.103.40.153)
  834. # [19:19] * Joins: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison)
  835. # [19:20] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-199-144.dynamic.qsc.de)
  836. # [19:22] * Joins: hamcore (hamcore@unaffiliated/msmosso)
  837. # [19:22] * Joins: apucacao (~apucacao@S010600226b6dbc54.vc.shawcable.net)
  838. # [19:24] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
  839. # [19:41] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~hb@c83-249-64-124.bredband.comhem.se)
  840. # [19:53] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-fdtzwjllfgxhtjgz) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  841. # [19:53] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-djjuistvkrlgsuaq)
  842. # [19:54] * Quits: apucacao (~apucacao@S010600226b6dbc54.vc.shawcable.net) (Quit: apucacao)
  843. # [19:54] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108)
  844. # [19:54] * Quits: payman_s (~payman@77.72.99.119) (Quit: Leaving)
  845. # [20:04] * Joins: jonnybarnes (~jonnybarn@host86-150-85-16.range86-150.btcentralplus.com)
  846. # [20:06] <dandaman> swiping gestures are something that can be done in html5 right?
  847. # [20:11] * Joins: maikmerten_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-33-190.dynamic.qsc.de)
  848. # [20:13] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-199-144.dynamic.qsc.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  849. # [20:16] <henrikbjorn> dandaman: what do you mean ?
  850. # [20:17] <dandaman> henrikbjorn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrXif_Q6QmY
  851. # [20:17] <dandaman> stuff like that
  852. # [20:17] <dandaman> where you move your finger accross a certain amount of pixels
  853. # [20:17] <dandaman> and it brings a message up
  854. # [20:17] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@1503032406.dhcp.dbnet.dk) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  855. # [20:17] <henrikbjorn> dont think it should be or is in the spec
  856. # [20:18] <henrikbjorn> its jquery touch
  857. # [20:18] <henrikbjorn> a mix of mouse hold and move mose events i think
  858. # [20:18] <dandaman> so there is nothing in html5 for this?
  859. # [20:18] <henrikbjorn> nope
  860. # [20:18] <dandaman> its all going to be plug-ins?
  861. # [20:18] <henrikbjorn> why should there be
  862. # [20:18] <dandaman> because someone in the #android channel lied to me
  863. # [20:18] <henrikbjorn> http://jqtouch.com/
  864. # [20:18] <dandaman> and told me its html5
  865. # [20:19] <henrikbjorn> thats what you are looking for it
  866. # [20:19] <dandaman> or rather could be done in html5
  867. # [20:19] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feaf:7f36)
  868. # [20:19] <dandaman> hopefully this will work in android
  869. # [20:19] <dandaman> because i cant just have it working for iphone only
  870. # [20:19] * Quits: jonnybarnes (~jonnybarn@host86-150-85-16.range86-150.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
  871. # [20:21] <Hixie> dandaman: HTML is just the markup language, touch would be user interaction events, that's a whole different spec. I recommend asking shepazu in #webapps on irc.w3.org, he's the one working on the DOM Events spec
  872. # [20:22] <dandaman> k, thanks for the direction!
  873. # [20:22] <Hixie> np
  874. # [20:22] * Quits: dandaman (~Daniel.Sa@216.52.240.243) (Quit: Leaving.)
  875. # [20:24] <Hixie> othermaciej: it seems, based on http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg02634.html, that the "change control" fields in IANA registrations have no effect
  876. # [20:24] <Hixie> othermaciej: so we can probably just pass on ISSUE-110
  877. # [20:24] * Quits: cyphase (~cyphase@adsl-99-191-75-39.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  878. # [20:26] * Joins: dandaman (~Daniel.Sa@216.52.240.243)
  879. # [20:26] <dandaman> remote host closed connection
  880. # [20:26] <dandaman> cant connect :(
  881. # [20:26] <dandaman> to irc.w3.org
  882. # [20:26] <dandaman> weak
  883. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> connect to port 6665
  884. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> iirc
  885. # [20:30] <dandaman> k ty
  886. # [20:30] * Quits: dandaman (~Daniel.Sa@216.52.240.243) (Quit: Leaving.)
  887. # [20:35] * Quits: gratz|home (~gratz@81.106.148.238) (Quit: Leaving)
  888. # [20:36] * Joins: cyphase (~cyphase@adsl-76-254-66-83.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  889. # [20:38] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-wdggqfmbaegqzipu)
  890. # [20:41] <Hixie> so was anyone at the hybi meeting who can give a meeting report?
  891. # [20:41] <TabAtkins> anne's there.
  892. # [20:42] * Joins: jamesr (~jamesr@nat/google/x-usgmxsnzxwpyeese)
  893. # [20:42] * Quits: jamesr (~jamesr@nat/google/x-usgmxsnzxwpyeese) (Remote host closed the connection)
  894. # [20:42] * Joins: jamesr (~jamesr@nat/google/x-erbdjrcipujvabzo)
  895. # [20:47] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  896. # [20:49] * Joins: kangax_ (~kangax@252-10-20-64.static.cosmoweb.net)
  897. # [20:50] * Joins: payman_s (~payman@81-229-81-24-no65.tbcn.telia.com)
  898. # [20:50] * Quits: payman (~payman@pat.se.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  899. # [20:53] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  900. # [20:54] <jgraham> Hixie: I listened to some of the audio and saw some of the Jabber
  901. # [20:54] <jgraham> But you might be better off waiting for Anne
  902. # [20:54] <jgraham> I think I missed most of the intersting bits
  903. # [20:56] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~hb@c83-249-64-124.bredband.comhem.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  904. # [20:57] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@dnuhd.xs4all.nl)
  905. # [21:01] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  906. # [21:01] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@dnuhd.xs4all.nl) (Client Quit)
  907. # [21:04] * Quits: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.159.231) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  908. # [21:05] * Joins: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.159.231)
  909. # [21:14] * Joins: SavageX_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-206-183.dynamic.qsc.de)
  910. # [21:15] * Quits: maikmerten_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-33-190.dynamic.qsc.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  911. # [21:16] * Quits: SavageX_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-206-183.dynamic.qsc.de) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  912. # [21:19] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108)
  913. # [21:20] * Joins: meandi (~meandi@dynadsl-080-228-65-166.ewetel.net)
  914. # [21:24] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  915. # [21:33] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben|meeting
  916. # [21:38] <jgraham> """in most languages, you have some sort of
  917. # [21:38] <jgraham> write() function call that takes a number of bytes to be written, as opposed to passing in a string, and so most implementers of
  918. # [21:38] <jgraham> the protocol would have to know the length of the data anyways."""
  919. # [21:38] <jgraham> Is that true?
  920. # [21:38] <jgraham> I mean obviously "most languages" is hard to quantify
  921. # [21:39] <jgraham> But I don't remember ever having to specify the number of bytes I wanted to output
  922. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that seems... completely false.
  923. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> You sometimes have to say how many bytes you want to *read*, but that's it.
  924. # [21:46] <Philip`> It's true if "most languages" is C/C++/Java
  925. # [21:47] <Philip`> Scripting languages tend to mix up byte-arrays and strings so it seems much more common for them to just dump a whole string onto the socket
  926. # [21:49] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  927. # [21:49] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@133.27.228.172) (Quit: kennyluck)
  928. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> Indeed, but the popular languages on servers these days are all "scripting languages".
  929. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> PHP's socket_write, frex, *accepts* an optional length parameter, but if you don't specify it it just writes the string into the socket.
  930. # [21:53] * Joins: mikekelly (mikek@s3x0r.biz)
  931. # [21:53] <mikekelly> hi I have a question about <device>
  932. # [21:54] * Quits: kangax_ (~kangax@252-10-20-64.static.cosmoweb.net) (Quit: kangax_)
  933. # [21:57] * Joins: aho (~nya@fuld-4d00d239.pool.mediaWays.net)
  934. # [21:59] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  935. # [22:00] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'd certainly like to duck that issue if possible
  936. # [22:01] * Quits: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-67-180-92-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  937. # [22:03] * Joins: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-67-180-92-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  938. # [22:06] * Joins: beverloo (~peter@h89030.upc-h.chello.nl)
  939. # [22:08] * Quits: bobchao (~cctw@112.105.140.77) (Quit: Leaving.)
  940. # [22:09] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com) (Quit: davidb)
  941. # [22:12] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@74.125.59.73)
  942. # [22:13] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
  943. # [22:14] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben
  944. # [22:15] * Joins: tlr (~tlr@xdsl-81-173-184-66.netcologne.de)
  945. # [22:21] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  946. # [22:26] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: aroben)
  947. # [22:34] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  948. # [22:36] * Quits: hamcore (hamcore@unaffiliated/msmosso)
  949. # [22:47] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  950. # [22:50] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@92.86.252.131) (Quit: .)
  951. # [22:51] * Quits: payman_s (~payman@81-229-81-24-no65.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  952. # [22:59] * Quits: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-67-180-92-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  953. # [23:02] * Quits: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: nimbupani)
  954. # [23:08] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  955. # [23:12] * Quits: tlr (~tlr@xdsl-81-173-184-66.netcologne.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  956. # [23:14] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-108-160.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  957. # [23:18] * Quits: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  958. # [23:19] * Joins: tlr (~tlr@xdsl-81-173-155-14.netcologne.de)
  959. # [23:20] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-43-237.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  960. # [23:24] * Quits: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.159.231) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  961. # [23:27] * Hixie wonders where he put his getContext() notes
  962. # [23:27] <jamesr> canvas getContext()?
  963. # [23:28] * Quits: roc (~roc@121.98.230.221) (Quit: roc)
  964. # [23:28] * Joins: roc (~roc@121.98.230.221)
  965. # [23:29] <Hixie> yeah
  966. # [23:32] <jamesr> it should be async yaknow
  967. # [23:32] <jamesr> sucks to have to block script while you create the context
  968. # [23:32] <jamesr> especially for 3d where you might have to spin up graphics card drivers, etc, before you know if you can actually create the context
  969. # [23:32] * Joins: meandi2 (~meandi@dynadsl-080-228-79-198.ewetel.net)
  970. # [23:32] * Quits: meandi (~meandi@dynadsl-080-228-65-166.ewetel.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  971. # [23:33] * Quits: tlr (~tlr@xdsl-81-173-155-14.netcologne.de) (Quit: tlr)
  972. # [23:33] * Parts: WilliamC (~WilliamC@nc-76-5-186-154.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) ("Leaving")
  973. # [23:34] * Joins: tlr (~tlr@xdsl-81-173-155-14.netcologne.de)
  974. # [23:35] <Hixie> jamesr: yeah well it's too late to change that
  975. # [23:37] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0)
  976. # [23:37] <Philip`> It's not too late to make breaking changes to WebGL
  977. # [23:37] <Philip`> and a new getAsyncContext could be added for that
  978. # [23:37] <Philip`> if people really care
  979. # [23:37] <Hixie> or we could just get the context returned for webgl be something that stores calls until such time as it's ready
  980. # [23:37] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-76c8e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  981. # [23:38] <jamesr> you'd still have to block on anything that queries state
  982. # [23:39] <jamesr> actually that still doesn't work
  983. # [23:39] <jamesr> if context initialization fails you have no way to indicate that if you return a buffering context
  984. # [23:40] <Hixie> why would context initialization fail?
  985. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> getContext("doesNotExist")?
  986. # [23:41] <Hixie> that doesn't need to be async
  987. # [23:41] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.24)
  988. # [23:41] <jamesr> getContext("webgl") when the underlying system doesn't support webgl
  989. # [23:42] <Hixie> why would the underlying system not support webgl?
  990. # [23:42] <jamesr> for example if the system's graphics card drivers fail to initialize, what's the UA supposed to do?
  991. # [23:42] <Hixie> fake it?
  992. # [23:44] <jamesr> seems nicer to tell the page that it can't have a webgl context than to return a seemingly-valid context that actually does nothing
  993. # [23:44] <othermaciej> GL can be done with software rendering
  994. # [23:44] <othermaciej> so in some sense there is no such thing as "hardware that doesn't support it"
  995. # [23:44] <othermaciej> though software rendering could be unusably slow
  996. # [23:44] <Hixie> i mean fake it as in implement webgl slowly
  997. # [23:45] <Hixie> just not providing it seems like a useless failure condition
  998. # [23:45] <Hixie> no site is ever going to check for that
  999. # [23:45] <Hixie> so they'll just crash
  1000. # [23:45] <jamesr> every webgl site i've ever visited checks for context creation
  1001. # [23:45] <othermaciej> sites will only check for it if it occurs commonly enough for them to run into it
  1002. # [23:45] <jamesr> since it commonly fails
  1003. # [23:46] <Hixie> sure but it fails because browsers don't implement it, not because they don't have driver support
  1004. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> It commonly fails *now*. In the future it shoudln't.
  1005. # [23:46] <othermaciej> right now sites have to test because no shipping browser supports WebGL on by default yet
  1006. # [23:54] * Parts: tlr (~tlr@xdsl-81-173-155-14.netcologne.de)
  1007. # Session Close: Sat Jul 31 00:00:00 2010

The end :)