/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-08-03 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Aug 03 00:00:00 2010
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <Hixie> it's remote to the attacker
# [00:00] <espadrine> wirepair: oh, we feel much better know ;)
# [00:00] <wirepair> espadrine ehe
# [00:00] <Hixie> but yeah, i guess it's not a remote code execution since you can't force it to occur remotely
# [00:00] * wirepair nods
# [00:01] <AryehGregor> It's remote code execution because you can trigger it without access to the machine. You just have to get them to visit a URL, which is fairly trivial.
# [00:02] <AryehGregor> As opposed to requiring that they install a program or something.
# [00:02] <wirepair> well the reasoning for seperate terms is to differentiate between someone exploiting a service, versus client software
# [00:03] <AryehGregor> Does a web page really count as client software?
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# [00:03] <wirepair> no but a pdf does
# [00:03] <AryehGregor> It's supposed to be sandboxed.
# [00:03] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
# [00:03] <KaOSoFt> PDF does.
# [00:03] <KaOSoFt> Er, that.
# [00:03] <AryehGregor> I guess.
# [00:03] <AryehGregor> It's sort of intermediate.
# [00:03] <wirepair> in the end, it really doesn't matter, one requires client interaction, the other does not
# [00:04] <AryehGregor> (I don't know why a webpage would not count but a PDF would)
# [00:04] <wirepair> i'd consider a webpage as well actually
# [00:04] <wirepair> the browser being the client software
# [00:05] <wirepair> <wirepair> no but a pdf does (sorry meant adobe acrobat/whatever is reading the doc)
# [00:08] <Alystair> http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http://www.hp.com <- there's really some irony to this
# [00:10] <AryehGregor> Why?
# [00:11] <Alystair> who donated the hardware to w3c :P
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# [00:11] <Alystair> HP donates to w3c yet doesn't uphold the standard themselves?
# [00:12] <AryehGregor> Oh, come on.
# [00:12] <AryehGregor> There are web pages on mozilla.org that don't validate.
# [00:12] <Hixie> there are pages on whatwg.org that don't validate
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# [00:12] <Hixie> e.g. the forums and maybe parts of the blog
# [00:12] <AryehGregor> Probably on w3.org too.
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# [00:12] <Hixie> not to mention the wiki
# [00:13] * AryehGregor has been idly planning to make a "blacklist all HTML5-forbidden tags in user input" mode for MW, but it would break copy-paste from Wikipedia, so probably wouldn't be too popular
# [00:13] <Alystair> :(
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# [00:31] <JF47> Hi, is anyone here?
# [00:39] <TabAtkins> JF47: No.
# [00:39] <TabAtkins> JF47: (In other words, if you have a question, ask it, rather than asking if anyone's here and then asking your question.)
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# [00:41] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Just checking each new context against the last successfully requested context assumes that compatibility is transitive, right? (It should be.)
# [00:41] <Hixie> yeah, see a bit later the definition of the wiki page
# [00:41] <Hixie> it says the compat has to be transitive and symmetric
# [00:42] <TabAtkins> kk, those are reasonable and sane requirements.
# [00:42] <Hixie> i thought so :-)
# [00:42] <TabAtkins> (It prevents silly things like requesting a 3d and then a 2d to implicitly create a texture in the 3d context that the 2d context draws to.)
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# [00:43] <TabAtkins> (That should be explicit instead.)
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# [00:43] <JF47> Does anyone know about how to use File Thingie the free PHP File Manager?
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# [00:44] <TabAtkins> I'd recommend asking in a php-focused channel.
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# [00:45] <JF47> #php-focused
# [00:45] <TabAtkins> I wasn't suggesting a specific channel name.
# [00:45] <JF47> Ok
# [00:45] <JF47> Oh
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# [00:46] <JF47> So why did you say recommend asking in a php-focused channel
# [00:46] <TabAtkins> Because that's what I recommend? I'm not saying to go visit some channel named #php-focused. I have no idea if there is any channel named that in this server, and even if there is, I have no idea what its quality is.
# [00:47] <TabAtkins> I was just suggesting finding a channel that is more focused on php matters. This room is for HTML5 talk and related stuff.
# [00:47] <JF47> Oh
# [00:47] <JF47> Do you know anything about File Thingie the free PHP File Manager?
# [00:48] <TabAtkins> No, and I doubt anyone else in the room is either. Thus my suggestion.
# [00:48] <AryehGregor> No, we don't.
# [00:48] <AryehGregor> Try #php or some other channel.
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# [03:16] <Hixie> othermaciej: comet does have built-in compression
# [03:17] <othermaciej> Hixie: ok, I guess you can use transfer-encoding: gzip
# [03:17] <othermaciej> Hixie: but is it commonly used for Comet-like use cases?
# [03:17] <Hixie> it is for google
# [03:17] <othermaciej> (I honestly don't know)
# [03:17] <Hixie> dunno about elsewhere
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# [03:21] <othermaciej> interesting
# [03:22] <othermaciej> supporting use cases of google services is probably important to the success of WebSockets (if only because they are a decent model of what other large-scale deployments will care about)
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# [03:35] <franksalim> i'm sure there is a version of WebSocket that both suits Google's needs and also has more than a passing resemblance to sockets and "tcp for the web"
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# [06:42] <erlehmann> gsnedders, do you maybe know how I could serialize the DOMNodeList which is returned by the php html5lib?
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# [07:25] <erlehmann> also, why doesn't it return a DOMDocumentFragment?
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# [08:18] <GPHemsley> urgh... I hate it when Hixie goes on a reply rampage >_<
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# [08:43] <annevk5> so I'm both second and eight place on Karl's list
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# [10:06] <hsivonen> shepazu: Have you asked MikeSmith? I can't volunteer right now.
# [10:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: what was shepazu asking about?
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# [10:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: help with a RELAX NG schema for SVG
# [10:07] <MikeSmith> ah
# [10:07] <MikeSmith> I'll talk with him about it
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# [10:09] <hsivonen> hg is so slow on a traditional disk. I should revitalize my MacBook by replacing the hard drive with an SSD.
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# [10:10] <Rik`> hsivonen: just did that yesterday, it is soooooo worth it
# [10:11] <Philip`> hsivonen: On Mozilla-sized repositories?
# [10:11] <hsivonen> Philip`: yeah.
# [10:11] <Philip`> (It seems very snappy for me on small ones, especially compared to SVN)
# [10:11] <Philip`> (but that's a much less hard problem)
# [10:11] <hsivonen> Philip`: my comparison is with my Linux box than has an SSD
# [10:12] <hsivonen> (my Linux box also has more RAM and a faster CPU)
# [10:12] <Rik`> I think I won't ever use a hard drive
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# [11:19] <annevk5> couple of mac questions; how do I get commandline cvs/svn/hg to run and what is a good basic text editor?
# [11:19] <jgraham> annevk5: You install hg/svn/cvs and run them from the command line...
# [11:20] <jgraham> At least hg is trivial since you can easy_install mercurial
# [11:20] <jgraham> (maybe even pip install if you are feeling very modern)
# [11:20] <jgraham> And emacs is always a good text editor :)
# [11:20] <jgraham> (specifically aquamacs in this case)
# [11:21] <jgraham> (but I think that isn't the answer you were looking for)
# [11:21] <gsnedders> erlehmann: no
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# [11:21] <erlehmann> well, i just used DomDocument in the end and cut off the superfluous html, head and body tags.
# [11:22] <annevk5> i wonder how to install them
# [11:23] <annevk5> got an editor
# [11:23] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Serializing as HTML is possible. There's a patch for PHP awaiting review.
# [11:23] <erlehmann> annevk5, nano is a good simple text editor. also, there is always macports … don't you have access to a real operating system with a package manager? ;)
# [11:23] <jgraham> annevk5: Either look for disk images
# [11:23] <gsnedders> erlehmann: http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=50973
# [11:23] <Peter`> Lots of people will come after you now for not suggesting vim, erlehmann ;)
# [11:23] <jgraham> Or install macports or fink or something
# [11:23] <Peter`> http://xkcd.com/378/
# [11:24] <jgraham> nano is not a good simple text editor
# [11:24] <jgraham> Nano is what you use when the choice is vim or nano or ed
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# [11:25] <erlehmann> gsnedders, pastebin.ca seems down from here. that patch will stay in limbo for eternally.
# [11:26] <erlehmann> but thanks.
# [11:26] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Yeah, I just noticed that. And noticed they had patch support in their bug tracker now…
# [11:26] <gsnedders> erlehmann: I guess I'll dig it up locally later and post it again
# [11:26] <erlehmann> well, in the end, saveXML is enough for me.
# [11:27] <erlehmann> ugly realiable code is still ugly, but then it gets the job done.
# [11:27] <nw_> TextWrangler is a good, basic text editor if you want to get all fancy and use a GUI, I think.
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# [11:29] <erlehmann> Peter` you should know that i am part of the „randall munroe gets unfunnier with time“ camp.
# [11:29] <Workshiva> The important thing to note about that comic is that the nano guy is the only one doing work
# [11:29] <Workshiva> The others stand around talking
# [11:30] <erlehmann> what shiva said. :P
# [11:30] <erlehmann> Also, i did not know about Rocky Mountain oysters till RIGHT NOW. CANNOT UNSEE.
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# [11:30] <annevk5> aah
# [11:30] <annevk5> macports looks nice
# [11:31] <Workshiva> "nano is an editor, not a religion"
# [11:31] <annevk5> erlehmann, I think I'm giving up on Ubuntu for a while until hardware manufacturers catch up with Apple
# [11:31] <annevk5> erlehmann, I'm not too married to any particular OS
# [11:32] <annevk5> well, Windows I wouldn't really wanna go back to
# [11:32] <Philip`> You could run Ubuntu on Apple hardware
# [11:32] <annevk5> sure
# [11:32] <erlehmann> annevk5, the lack of package management really put me of OSX (and windows, too). but many of my hacker friends with macbooks use linux.
# [11:32] <Workshiva> Or you could buy the same parts apple buys
# [11:32] <erlehmann> sorry, it is „put me off of“
# [11:32] <annevk5> but I doubt it would be as efficient
# [11:32] <Workshiva> Build your own
# [11:33] <erlehmann> well, depends on your task. for programming, i have found package management immensely useful.
# [11:33] <Workshiva> What kind of programming?
# [11:33] <annevk5> I mean in terms of battery usage and all :)
# [11:33] <erlehmann> that kind where you need to quickly pull libxyz
# [11:34] <erlehmann> ah, okay. got that.
# [11:34] <annevk5> I usually just write text and programming I do on a server
# [11:34] <Workshiva> That doesn't sound like programming, it sounds like dependency management
# [11:34] <erlehmann> Workshiva, libxyz-dev? ;)
# [11:34] <Philip`> It's not programming if you use third-party libraries?
# [11:35] <erlehmann> "real programmers write their floating-point routines all by themselves"
# [11:35] <jgraham> I generally agree FWIW; unless you stay firmly in the Mac ecosystem, the packaging story on OSX sucks
# [11:36] <Workshiva> erlehmann: No, not in that sense. But rather that you pull dependencies once per dependency, and the total number tends to stay rather low over time
# [11:36] <erlehmann> jgraham, it confuses me to hell. after all, its not as if apple would not have the resources to set up repositories.
# [11:36] <jgraham> erlehmann: They could call it an "App Store"
# [11:36] <erlehmann> hehe
# [11:36] <jgraham> and let people charge money for their apps
# [11:37] <Workshiva> Call it the Book Depository
# [11:37] <erlehmann> get libcaca, for the low price of 200g of nazi gold
# [11:37] <Philip`> Workshiva: You pull dependencies n times each, if you want to keep up with bug fixes and security updates and new features
# [11:37] <erlehmann> what that guy says
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# [11:38] <Philip`> and not-trivial programs use dozens of libraries, so it adds up to quite a lot
# [11:38] <Workshiva> Philip`: Yeah, but you have n people on the team pulling them
# [11:38] <Philip`> s/not/non/
# [11:38] <erlehmann> don't apple app packages contain every library they need, as with windows?
# [11:38] <Workshiva> So the amortized cost is fairly constant
# [11:38] <Philip`> Workshiva: I'm assuming a case with 1 person
# [11:38] <Philip`> but the libraries get updated n times
# [11:40] <Workshiva> Well, 1 person could just ignore the updates
# [11:40] <Workshiva> And say 'patches welcome'
# [11:40] <erlehmann> Task: Compare software installation overhead for a team of N developers using a) Windows XP SP2 b) Debian GNU/Hurd c) OS X 10.4 . Use big O notation. :P
# [11:41] <hsivonen> annevk5: MacPorts for hg/svg/etc. TextWrangler for editor. (It installs a command-line tool called 'edit' for invoking it from he command line.)
# [11:41] <jgraham> Debian GNU/Hurd is O(0) because no one actually uses that
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# [11:41] <erlehmann> Whenever people talk about software having to work on Windows XP, I remind them that it's older than my little sister.
# [11:42] <jgraham> That's quite a meaningless analogu
# [11:42] <jgraham> *analogy
# [11:42] <jgraham> Your little sister could, literally, have been born yesterday
# [11:42] <Workshiva> erlehmann: My program isn't meant for kids
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# [11:43] <Workshiva> So clearly supporting XP is even more important now
# [11:44] * hsivonen wonders what happens to things like the famous Boeing intranet once XP reaches EOL
# [11:44] <erlehmann> haha
# [11:44] <hsivonen> (since XP Mode will reach EOL together with the unvirtualized XP)
# [11:44] <erlehmann> I recently got told that the european parliament still uses IE6.
# [11:45] <Workshiva> hsivonen: They could just pull it off the internet and give everyone two computers
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# [11:45] <erlehmann> maybe they manage to patch the wine program loader so it works under windows as well till then?
# [11:46] <erlehmann> that would be one hell of a hack.
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# [11:46] <Workshiva> It's not like XP will stop working, it will just stop being supported
# [11:47] <erlehmann> yeah and most people are wary to eat stuff that is past its expiration date.
# [11:47] <jgraham> The UK government still uses IE6
# [11:47] <Workshiva> They aren't wary of sitting in chairs past their warranty date, though
# [11:47] <Workshiva> Your analogies are weird, erlehmann
# [11:47] <jgraham> But Microsoft will still support it whislt there are still big deployments
# [11:48] <jgraham> Who knows, IE6 might eventually kill them :)
# [11:48] * hsivonen wonders how much money the Boeing account brings to MS and how much costs it adds
# [11:48] <erlehmann> Workshiva, you are not the first person to tell me that.
# [11:50] <erlehmann> Even funnier are the ones who point out that I am „IRL just the same as in IRC“. As if that is somehow unexpected.
# [11:55] <annevk5> hsivonen, great, I settled on textwrangler independently already :)
# [11:55] <annevk5> i'll now struggle with macports
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# [12:28] * jgraham is glad that he doesn't share a name with anyone particularly famous
# [12:28] <jgraham> Because every time I see something on the list from "James May" I read it as "Captian Slow"
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# [12:29] <jgraham> Which is annoying enough for me, let alone him
# [12:29] <Peter`> I'm the only one with my name, so far :P
# [12:31] <espadrine> Idea: pick a name from the Bible. Chances are, your child is going to be the first one to bear this name since Jesus' times.
# [12:31] <espadrine> My name's that way
# [12:32] <jgraham> Well sure there are lots of ways to generate a unique name
# [12:32] <jgraham> Take a well0known name and rot-13 it, for example
# [12:33] <Workshiva> Challenge: Find a pair of common names that are rot13 twins
# [12:33] <Philip`> My (first) name's in the Bible and I don't think that helped it be unique :-(
# [12:34] * gsnedders wonders how many people there are called Judas nowadays…
# [12:34] <gsnedders> Or Lucifier
# [12:39] <adactio> gsnedders: I met a Judas once. It was at a loud party and when he introduced himself, I laughed and said "For a second there, I thought you said your name was Judas." He was not amused. I was embarrassed.
# [12:40] <Peter`> I know a Judas too, can't be cool to have a name like that
# [12:40] <annevk5> lol
# [12:40] <Peter`> Makes you wonder why parents make such a decision.. ignorance or self-knowledge?
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# [12:51] <hsivonen> gsnedders: in Finland this year there has been at least one baby named Juudas. Also at least one between 1940 and 1959. other than that, none. No Lucifer or Lusifer. Not popular names, it seems. However, since the beginning of data, there has been no one in Finland named Jeesus (the Finnish form). (there have been people named, Jesus, though. As part of Spanish names, I would assume.)
# [12:52] <nw_> You can't name your baby "Jeesus" in Finland, AFAIK.
# [12:52] <annevk> Hixie, you broke http://www.whatwg.org/specs/html5/current-work/ as a link
# [12:52] <hsivonen> nw_: I'd expect that to be the case.
# [12:53] <gsnedders> nw_, hsivonen: Why?
# [12:54] <nw_> Well, the naming policies in Finland are pretty strict, as far as I know. Not an expert on the subject, but I've understood that you can't change your surname to, let's say, "Tiikerimetsä" (translates as "Tiger Forest") because there are no tigers in Finland. For example.
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# [12:55] <gavin> wow
# [12:55] <gavin> that sounds crazy
# [12:55] <nw_> In any case, you can't give your baby just any ol' name in Finland, it has to be approved by someone.
# [12:55] <nw_> Yeah, grain of salt and all that, though.
# [12:55] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I'd expect Jeesus to be deemed culturally inappropriate as a Finnish name. But if you claim Spanish heritage, you can probably explain Jesus as appropriate
# [12:55] <gsnedders> I guess I'll have to change my name to Geffe Snedderström in se then…
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# [12:57] <jgraham> Having some approval to protect children from their parents seems reasonable. Banning Tiikerimetsä "because there are no tigers in Finland" seems crazy
# [12:57] <MikeSmith> nw_: is there some stated rationale for this policy? do people in Finland support it? is it one of those "that's the way it's always been kind of things"?
# [12:57] <MikeSmith> there's a policy like that in Japan too
# [12:57] <MikeSmith> a guy tried to name his kid "Akuma" a few years back
# [12:57] <MikeSmith> which means "demon"
# [12:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I haven't seen rallies to change the statute
# [12:58] <MikeSmith> I see
# [12:58] <nw_> MikeSmith, well, like I said, I don't know too much about the subject, but as hsivonen said, no one seems to complain.
# [12:58] <nw_> Well, almost no one, I suppose.
# [12:58] <MikeSmith> OK
# [12:59] * hsivonen noticed that Swedish royalty have longer names than what is legal in Finland
# [12:59] <nw_> I don't see it as an altogether bad thing, though, what with all the Pilot Inspektors and whatnot in the US.
# [12:59] <MikeSmith> heh
# [12:59] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [12:59] <hsivonen> I wonder if Sweden has the same length limit as Finland for common folk and the extra length is a specifically royal thing
# [13:00] <annevk5> fixed-length names?
# [13:00] <annevk5> makes me think of hybi
# [13:00] <hsivonen> annevk5: there's a statutory limit on the number of tokens
# [13:00] <jgraham> You are crazy
# [13:00] <nw_> That I didn't know.
# [13:00] <hsivonen> annevk5: It bothers me that I've never seen the specs for the tokens
# [13:00] <annevk5> hsivonen, in 16-bit code units?
# [13:00] <annevk5> ah
# [13:01] <hsivonen> you can have up to 3 given names in Finland
# [13:01] <hsivonen> (Swedish royalty have 4 each)
# [13:01] <nw_> jgraham, but yeah, I agree that the whole Tiikerimetsä thing is a bit silly (if true). Especially since Eero Tiikerimetsä would be such a badass name.
# [13:02] <hsivonen> the statute doesn't say what character reportoire is permitted, which bothers me
# [13:03] <hsivonen> but Cyrillic letters apparently aren't part of the permitted reportoire and have to be transliterated
# [13:03] <hsivonen> but that's not in the statute
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# [13:09] <annevk5> wow, been a long time since I heard an installer DVD spinning
# [13:10] * annevk5 didn't wanna register so is installing Xcode from DVD
# [13:10] <jgraham> You didn't give up and use Ubuntu instead then :)
# [13:10] <annevk5> not yet
# [13:10] <annevk5> macports is next
# [13:11] <annevk5> then cvs et al en then I can review your tests and do work other than email
# [13:11] <annevk5> as a backup i have my other laptop here on standby
# [13:14] <karlcow> [02:40] <annevk5> so I'm both second and eight place on Karl's list
# [13:14] <karlcow> annevk: yes the code compile on email addresses as an identifier. :((( Maybe I should do a second parsing on the list with names OR create manually a list of P(emails, name)
# [13:15] <karlcow> annevk: the code is here http://www.la-grange.net/2010/08/02/mail-analysis.py
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# [13:16] <karlcow> if someone wants to play, modify, twist, etc. feel gpl. :)
# [13:16] <annevk5> two places means I must have been way more active before I joined Opera
# [13:16] <annevk5> comparatively, anyway
# [13:17] <karlcow> I was thinking also about a data visualization through time for top posters.
# [13:19] <annevk5> oh yes
# [13:19] <annevk5> port install ftw
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# [13:44] <hsivonen> sigh. doing data-driven pref optimizations is annoying when you get to the area where you find some cases became slightly better and some slightly worse
# [13:44] <jgraham> hsivonen: s/pref/perf/ ?
# [13:45] <jgraham> hsivonen: What are you optimising?
# [13:45] <hsivonen> yes, perf
# [13:45] <hsivonen> tokenizer state transitions
# [13:46] <Philip`> Is that a significant part of the parse time?
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# [13:47] * Philip` found with html5lib that simply reading the input string seemed to be the most expensive thing and any computation was basically free, but presumes it's very different in non-scripting languages
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# [13:48] <hsivonen> Philip`: well, it's more like this optimization seemed like an obvious thing to do, but the rewards are less obvious than I expected :-(
# [13:49] <hsivonen> Philip`: in general, the parse time is a small part of what the browser does, so no matter what you tweak inside the parser core, you can't make a huge overall impact
# [13:51] <Philip`> I guess it makes sense to just optimise for non-general cases where it's a larger part, if there's any such cases
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# [13:52] <Philip`> (Nobody cares how long it takes to parse Wikipedia but maybe some people care how long it takes to parse the HTML spec, or is still a small part there?)
# [13:53] <gsnedders> Reflowing during script execution is what kills browsers there
# [13:53] <hsivonen> has anyone already repurposed the HTML5 spec as a parser perf test case?
# [13:53] <annevk5> installing subversion takes loooong
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# [13:54] <hsivonen> (i.e. making the whole thing display: none; and making it time itself?)
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# [13:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: That seems trivial to do
# [13:55] <annevk5> lol
# [13:55] <annevk5> WOFF same-origin restrictions are mentioned in the introduction
# [13:55] <jgraham> Although having scripts is a bit annoying
# [13:56] <annevk5> including a reference to CORS and HTML5 et al
# [13:56] <hsivonen> jgraham: sure. I was thinking I'd be lazy if someone has done it already.
# [13:56] <annevk5> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-WOFF-20100727/#Introduction
# [13:56] <annevk5> well hopefully everyone ignores the obvious non-normativeness of that
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# [13:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: actually, I was kinda wishing micro optimizing the parser would benefit innerHTML
# [13:59] <hsivonen> Philip`: the problem is, I don't know what benchmark I should optimize for in order to optimize "innerHTML<
# [13:59] <hsivonen> s/</"/
# [14:01] <Philip`> Is there any way to find real-world sites that spend significant amounts of time on innerHTML?
# [14:01] <hsivonen> hrm. the spec is so large gedit behaves slowly
# [14:01] <smaug> huh, there are PutForwards in the draft. Need to get rid of those
# [14:02] <Philip`> Seems like some kind of instrumented browser would be very helpful, to tell people what kind of behaviour ought to be tested in benchmarks
# [14:02] <hsivonen> Philip`: indeed
# [14:02] <jgraham> smaug: Huh?
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# [14:02] <Philip`> Does anyone do that yet, or are benchmarks all just made up?
# [14:03] <annevk5> smaug, what draft?
# [14:03] <jgraham> What's the problem with PutForwards?
# [14:03] <smaug> tml5 draft
# [14:03] <smaug> PutForwards is evil. A sign of bad API
# [14:03] <smaug> html5
# [14:03] <annevk5> why is it bad?
# [14:03] <smaug> consistency
# [14:03] <smaug> it breaks consistency
# [14:04] <jgraham> Philip`: The V8 benchmark did that with the regexp tests iirc
# [14:04] <smaug> set and get start doing very different things
# [14:04] <jgraham> smaug: It is mostly part of the legacy platform at this point though
# [14:04] <annevk5> not really
# [14:04] <jgraham> Have we introduced it in more places?
# [14:04] <smaug> I can understand it for .location
# [14:04] <annevk5> yes
# [14:04] <smaug> for .location it is for legacy
# [14:05] <annevk5> but I think it is rather elegant
# [14:05] <Workshiva> I think it is terrible
# [14:05] <Workshiva> #javascript has a lot of visitors asking why they can't do window.location.indexOf
# [14:06] <smaug> yeah, we shouldn't introduce similar problems as what .location has
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# [14:07] <hsivonen> hmm. the spec has lots of images these days
# [14:08] <hsivonen> (removing the srcs for those so that they don't bother parser timing)
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# [14:23] <annevk5> unless anything unforeseen happens XMLHttpRequest will go to CR today
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# [14:25] <hsivonen> annevk5: cool. finally.
# [14:26] <annevk5> yeah just checked
# [14:27] <annevk5> >4 years since first W3C draft
# [14:30] <Rik`> I thought it was much less
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# [14:41] <annevk5> hmm
# [14:41] * annevk5 wonders about XMLHttpRequest.priority
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# [14:58] <annevk5> macports doesn't do tab-autocompletion
# [14:58] <annevk5> wtf
# [14:58] <annevk5> mercurial requires freetype
# [14:58] <annevk5> euh
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# [15:27] <MikeSmith> I've been neglecting to add the NE keyword to bugs recently
# [15:27] <MikeSmith> or for quite a while now, actually
# [15:27] <MikeSmith> and nobody else has been doing it either
# [15:27] <MikeSmith> we need to start doing it again
# [15:27] <Workshiva> Are there ne NE bugs left?
# [15:28] <MikeSmith> there are some still open
# [15:28] <MikeSmith> but we have a lot of existing open bugs that aren't marked with it that should be
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# [15:28] <MikeSmith> unless somebody has a better idea for how we can distinguish editorial bugs
# [15:29] <MikeSmith> we basically just want to be able to ignore the editorial bugs
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# [15:29] <MikeSmith> because really only the editors need to care about those
# [15:29] <Workshiva> What percentage of bugs are filed via the inline tool now?
# [15:33] <annevk5> yay
# [15:33] <annevk5> edit ...
# [15:33] <annevk5> hg clone ...
# [15:33] <annevk5> cvs ...
# [15:34] <annevk5> prolly requires some further setup stuff but the basics are there
# [15:37] <MikeSmith> Workshiva: dunno… maybe 50%
# [15:47] <Workshiva> So I guess that means asking the bug reporter to mark NE or not is not viable
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# [16:03] <Rik`> annevk5: http://test.w3.org/webapps/tests/XMLHttpRequest/info.htm is quite empty, how can it go in CR ?
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# [16:05] <annevk5> exit criteria
# [16:05] <annevk5> not entrance
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# [16:13] <Rik`> I find it weird to set an exit criteria date when we don't have a date for the availability of the test suite
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# [16:13] <annevk5> it's just the minimum amount of time
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# [16:45] <annevk5> MikeSmith, you around?
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# [16:55] <annevk5> each time I set up a new laptop CVS is a pain
# [16:55] <annevk5> someone please move dev.w3.org out of CVS hell so I no longer have to deal
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# [17:12] <MikeSmith> annevk5: here now
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# [17:13] <MikeSmith> I guess I could probably set up some rewrites to point selected dev.w3.org stuff to dvcs.w3.org
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# [17:14] <annevk5> the problem now is that first cvs complaints my ssh file is not protected
# [17:14] <annevk5> and when I do protect it I get prompted for a password when I run the cvs lines
# [17:14] <annevk5> and none of the passwords I can think of are correct
# [17:17] <Philip`> Did you protect the file from yourself too?
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# [17:19] <annevk5> now it just says "permission denied (publickey)"
# [17:19] <annevk5> even if I set chmod to 777
# [17:19] <annevk5> argh
# [17:19] <MikeSmith> it needs to be 600, right?
# [17:21] <annevk5> i guess, but it's no longer working
# [17:23] <AryehGregor> "permission denied (publickey)" means that the server denied access based on your public key, not that the client can't access your public key, I think.
# [17:23] <annevk5> ok, but that makes no sense
# [17:23] <annevk5> it works fine elsewhere
# [17:24] <MikeSmith> if you do "ssh -v -v -v cvs.w3.org" and send me the output, maybe I can figure out something
# [17:24] <annevk5> oh lol
# [17:24] <MikeSmith> or I can ask systems team
# [17:24] <annevk5> it was sudo that was the problem
# [17:24] <Philip`> Using the same public key as elsewhere?
# [17:24] <annevk5> so I guess this was my fault
# [17:25] <annevk5> Philip`, yeah, I just copied stuff from Ubuntu
# [17:25] * Philip` thought that was generally considered not ideal from a security perspective
# [17:25] <annevk5> well, I'm only using this mess for dev.w3.org
# [17:25] <annevk5> when someone takes over editing we'll find out soon enough :)
# [17:26] <Philip`> Fair enough :-)
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# [17:48] <annevk5> where can I store environment variables in Mac OS X?
# [17:48] <annevk5> having CVS_RSH=ssh set by default somewhere would be nice :)
# [17:48] <pablof> annevk5: .bashrc probably
# [17:48] <pablof> or .bashprofile
# [17:49] <Rik`> annevk5: ~/.profile
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# [17:52] <annevk5> thanks
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# [18:10] <hober> annevk: setting env vars in ~/.MacOSX/environment.plist will ensure that non-shell processes launched from the Dock also see them
# [18:14] <jgraham> Philip`: What did you do to make the annotated spec for the canvas tests?
# [18:15] <jgraham> Oh I guess I can read the source
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# [18:41] <Philip`> jgraham: I don't quite remember
# [18:41] <Philip`> I think it involved regexps
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# [18:43] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: You around? I dunno if you can touch the listserv stuff, but I got an odd email today that I think points to a problem on the listserv.
# [18:44] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: I don't have access to the mailing-list backend
# [18:44] <MikeSmith> what was odd about the message?
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> Someone just emailed me saying they'd received literally hundreds of copies of one of my emails to the CSSWG list over the last few weeks.
# [18:44] <Philip`> jgraham: (Also, lots of manual annotation-markup)
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# [18:55] <dandaman> can anyone explain what em does/means? as opposed to px
# [18:55] <dandaman> im having trouble understanding the explanations online
# [18:55] <TabAtkins> An em is the current font size.
# [18:56] <jgraham> Philip`: Hmm
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> So, for an element with font-size:16px, 1em = 16px.
# [18:56] <jgraham> Philip`: So not easy to generalise to the whole spec?
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# [18:56] <Philip`> jgraham: What do you mean by easy, and by generalise?
# [18:57] <Philip`> The basic annotation approach should work on any HTML document, I think
# [18:57] <dandaman> TabAtkins: so how do you set a font-size and an em size?
# [18:57] <TabAtkins> Otherwise, em is just an absolute length unit and works the exact same way as px/in/etc.
# [18:57] <dandaman> im guessing em just means scaling
# [18:57] <TabAtkins> dandaman: Through CSS.
# [18:57] <jgraham> Philip`: The desired end result I have is a way to have a list of tests and a list of positions in the spec (somehow) and associate the two
# [18:57] <dandaman> well you use font-size:15px
# [18:57] <jgraham> Philip`: So that one can see "oh that test tests this statement"
# [18:57] <dandaman> then what is the tag for em
# [18:57] <dandaman> ?
# [18:58] <KaOSoFt> Huh?
# [18:58] <TabAtkins> "em" is a unit, just like px. You just use it like "margin-top: 1.5em;"
# [18:58] <Philip`> jgraham: For "positions in the spec", is my approach of copying the relevant assertion text from the spec into a separate text file and adding some annotations adequate, or would you want something more/less fragile or requiring more/less effort?
# [18:58] <KaOSoFt> em tag is for emphasis.
# [18:58] <dandaman> oh
# [18:58] <TabAtkins> Oh, did you mean <em>?
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# [18:59] <dandaman> no, you understood me correctly
# [18:59] <KaOSoFt> em unit is for scaling.
# [18:59] <dandaman> how does the scaling work KaOSoFt?
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> Dude, I just told you - 1em is always equivalent to the font-size of the element you're specifying the property on.
# [18:59] <KaOSoFt> What TabAtkins said: "<TabAtkins> So, for an element with font-size:16px, 1em = 16px."
# [18:59] <Philip`> jgraham: (I think it's worked well enough for the canvas section - it doesn't take that much effort to maintain the annotation file, and it means it can automatically generate warnings when the spec text changes and lets me know that some tests are possibly invalid now)
# [18:59] <dandaman> i know, but where do i set the em value?
# [18:59] <KaOSoFt> So 2em would be 32px.
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> You don't set the "em" value. *It's equivalent to the font-size.*
# [19:00] <dandaman> ohhh, 1 em is ALWAYS 16px?
# [19:00] <KaOSoFt> ...
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> No, it's equal to 16px if the font-size for that element is 16px.
# [19:00] <KaOSoFt> If you set it like that before.
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> If the font-size for that element is 30px, then 1em = 30px.
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> If it's font-size:8px, then 1em=8px for that element.
# [19:00] <dandaman> ok lets say i have my inline style like this
# [19:00] <dandaman> <div style="font-size:12px">
# [19:01] <jgraham> Philip`: Oh that sounds promising
# [19:01] <TabAtkins> The size of the em unit is relative to the element it is being used on.
# [19:01] <dandaman> so everything INSIDE of that div tag using the em unit will be in terms of 12px?
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# [19:01] <Philip`> jgraham: (http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/tip/tests/submission/PhilipTaylor/tools/canvas/spec.yaml if you didn't see that file yet)
# [19:01] <TabAtkins> If nothing else changes the font-size inside there. Also, any properties on the <div> itself that use the em unit will get 1em=12px
# [19:02] <KaOSoFt> Whatever is font-size related, yes.
# [19:02] <jgraham> Maybe if one is clever and writes a js frontend for making the annotation file, one can click on a bit of the spec, grab the right text and add a list of tetss or something
# [19:02] <jgraham> Philip`: I saw it existed
# [19:02] <TabAtkins> KaOSoFt: No need for it to be font-size related. You can use ems for anything.
# [19:02] <jgraham> (like the status annotations, but a bit more complex)
# [19:02] <Philip`> jgraham: ("<^>" means "put the test marker here", "<...>" means match any string of characters, "*must*" means that's the relevant keyword, etc)
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# [19:02] <dandaman> ok, thanks
# [19:03] <Philip`> jgraham: (plus there's some ugly hacks with 'previously' for sentences that aren't uniquely identified by their text)
# [19:03] <TabAtkins> <div style="font-size: 12px; border: 1em solid blue;"><p style="font-size:8px; border: 1em solid red;">foo!</p></div>
# [19:03] <TabAtkins> ^^^ The div's border will be 12px wide, the p's border will be 8px wide.
# [19:03] <KaOSoFt> TabAtkins- Oh, wait, yeah, no idea how come I was thinking in other elements (images, for instance) have anything to do with font.
# [19:03] <KaOSoFt> ._.
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# [19:04] <Philip`> jgraham: It makes more sense to me that the test case identifies what part of the spec it's testing, rather than the spec identifying the tests, because it seems less likely to get out of sync if the test is updated
# [19:05] <jgraham> Philip`: In either case I think we need an intermediate file
# [19:06] <jgraham> Because the tests in general can't identify which part of the spec they are testing
# [19:06] <jgraham> (we can't really add that metadata to all tests)
# [19:06] <Philip`> Yeah, if we want it to be more specific than linking to a fragment ID
# [19:07] <Philip`> With the canvas section it's fairly easy to tie each "must" to a set of tests, so sentence-level annotation is reasonable
# [19:07] <Philip`> Don't know how well that'll generalise to the rest of the spec
# [19:08] <jgraham> For some parts it is reasonable
# [19:08] <jgraham> For the parser not so much
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# [19:08] <jgraham> Some tetss have a one to many relationship with sections
# [19:09] <TabAtkins> Solved problem in the CSS test format - the tests carry links to the spec sections they're testing.
# [19:09] <jgraham> TabAtkins: "the tests in general can't identify which part of the spec they are testing"
# [19:10] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that statement doesn't make any sense to me.
# [19:10] <jgraham> And greater than fragment-id level precision is desirable anyway
# [19:10] <TabAtkins> Okay, we suffice with section-level precision. (Nearest heading.)
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# [19:11] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Well there are tests like the parser tests which a) are not in a format that is conducive to adding that data and b) test many parts of the algorithm
# [19:11] <Philip`> jgraham: I don't think one-to-many is necessarily a problem - the way I usually try to write tests is by looking at a sentence (or word etc), then writing enough tests so that an implementation which does everything perfectly except for that word/sentence/etc will fail
# [19:11] <Philip`> and it doesn't matter if the test case also depends on many other spec requirements
# [19:11] <jgraham> and then there are tests that require quite specific DOM setup
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# [19:12] <dandaman> not sure if im asking in the right place, but is there a way to make text scale with screen size(besides with javascript)
# [19:13] <Philip`> With the parser you could write tests for line N of the spec by finding cases where a parser that implements everything except line N will fail
# [19:13] <dandaman> i would hate to have to go through every element in javascript and multiply by a factor of the screen size :\
# [19:14] <TabAtkins> dandaman: Ideally what you want is to use the vh/vw units, which scale with the size of the screen. Nobody implements them yet, though.
# [19:14] <Philip`> But it doesn't work if buggy behaviour is caused by a complex interaction of steps and you can't point to a specific place in the spec where it's clearly wrong
# [19:14] <jgraham> Philip`: It seems unlikely that anyone will start again with the parser tests
# [19:14] <jgraham> and also, what you said
# [19:14] <TabAtkins> I think that some browsers implement the rem unit, which is just like em but is always based on the font-size of the root element. Then you can just change the font-size of the <html> element via js.
# [19:14] * Philip` isn't sure how often that situation occurs
# [19:14] <TabAtkins> Otherwise, you're stuck changing them all.
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# [19:15] <Philip`> Actually I suppose it occurs a lot when testing negative handling
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# [19:15] <TabAtkins> dandaman: Are you wanting to make *everything* relative to the screen size, or just certain elements?
# [19:16] <dandaman> vh and vw units you say hmmm
# [19:16] <dandaman> TabAtkins: everything
# [19:16] <Philip`> like making sure the <foobar> tag isn't parsed specially, where foobar is some non-standard tag that some browsers might handle crazily
# [19:16] <TabAtkins> dandaman: What's the use-case?
# [19:16] <Philip`> since then you can't point to a specific place in the spec about it
# [19:16] <Philip`> jgraham: All we need to do is write a one-to-one implementation of the spec, run the test suite through it, then delete or buggify line N of the implementation and see which tests fail
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# [19:16] <Ms2ger> You can point at the "any other tag" requirements?
# [19:16] <Philip`> and then we know which lines each test is testing
# [19:16] <Philip`> and if no tests fail then write more tests
# [19:17] <Philip`> Easy :-)
# [19:17] <dandaman> TabAtkins: just when the page is loaded
# [19:17] <TabAtkins> dandaman: I mean, why are you wanting to scale everything by the page size?
# [19:17] * TabAtkins is making sure you're doing something reasonable before he offers his next suggestion.
# [19:18] <dandaman> TabAtkins: its for a mobile website, and different phones=different screen widths
# [19:18] <TabAtkins> Just to ask, are you aware of ppk's work on dealing with mobile phones and their horrible lies about their sizes?
# [19:18] <dandaman> no i am not :(
# [19:19] <TabAtkins> Go read some of the recent stuff in the quirksmode blog.
# [19:19] <Philip`> I've heard of Java testing tools which mutate the bytecode (e.g. randomly flip a conditional) and if that doesn't cause any test cases to fail then your test cases are insufficient
# [19:19] <Philip`> (or your code is redundant)
# [19:20] <Philip`> I wonder if something like that could work on the validator.nu parser...
# [19:22] <dandaman> TabAtkins: do you remember the article name?
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# [19:26] <espadrine> dandaman: http://www.quirksmode.org/mobile/viewports.html
# [19:27] <TabAtkins> espadrine: Ah, you just beat me. I'd been chasing down through his twitter feed.
# [19:27] <TabAtkins> Also viewports2.html
# [19:28] <espadrine> ;)
# [19:28] <dandaman> ty
# [19:29] <dandaman> so what it looks like is i just need to set my style widths to percentages
# [19:29] <dandaman> and i'll be good
# [19:30] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that should generally work. You'll have to be a little careful, but it should be okay.
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# [19:32] <dandaman> did not work :\
# [19:32] <dandaman> looks good on browser, not so much on emulator
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# [19:38] <dandaman> doh, was using device-width
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# [20:39] <AryehGregor> Why does this give "submit" instead of "" on Firefox, Chrome, and Opera? That seems wrong per spec. data:text/html,<!doctype html><script>alert(document.createElement('button').type);</script>
# [20:39] <AryehGregor> Is it a spec bug or browser bug?
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# [20:46] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, looks like a spec bug, button.type should be limited to only known values, like input.type
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# [20:48] <AryehGregor> Firefox 3.6 doesn't treat it that way, but Firefox 4 does.
# [20:48] <AryehGregor> I'll file a spec bug.
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# [20:48] <AryehGregor> (so do the other browsers I tested)
# [20:48] <kbrosnan> firefox 4 is using the html5 parser
# [20:49] <AryehGregor> That's surely irrelevant to this.
# [20:50] <kbrosnan> fairly easy to check if that is the cause of the change in behavior in firefox 4, about:config filter on html5 double click to flip the pref
# [20:50] <Ms2ger> volkmar probably changed it to match the spec
# [20:50] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, I just filed one
# [20:50] <AryehGregor> Where?
# [20:51] <AryehGregor> I did too. :/
# [20:51] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10290
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# [20:52] <Ms2ger> -289
# [20:52] <volkmar> AryehGregor: i changed that to match the specs
# [20:52] <AryehGregor> volkmar, which spec?
# [20:52] <volkmar> Ms2ger: btw, i think bug 9635 is more "fixed" than worksforme
# [20:53] <AryehGregor> HTML5 seems to say that Firefox was more correct before . . .
# [20:53] <volkmar> AryehGregor: hmm, s/to match the specs//, i don't really remember, i did that months ago
# [20:53] <AryehGregor> It matches other browsers better.
# [20:53] <AryehGregor> Matches the spec worse, but the spec doesn't match reality here and is probably what should be changed.
# [20:54] <volkmar> AryehGregor: why not having button.type limited to only known values?
# [20:55] <AryehGregor> I don't understand the question. Having button.type limited to known values matches browser behavior, but not the spec.
# [20:55] <AryehGregor> Thus, the spec should be changed. Right?
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# [20:56] <volkmar> AryehGregor: I hope, I don't see why button.type shouldn't be limited to only known values
# [20:56] <volkmar> it would behave like input.type which seems better
# [20:56] <Ms2ger> Exactly
# [20:56] <annevk5> I think we should change all enumerable attributes to be limited like that
# [20:57] <volkmar> I completely agree
# [20:57] <annevk5> it makes sense to ignore on setting to unknown value
# [20:57] <annevk5> it is what <canvas> does as well
# [20:57] <annevk5> and gives the ability to do feature testing
# [20:58] <annevk5> I guess we should just implement it so the spec can remove the whole concept of "limited to known values" and make it part of the enumerable attributes definition
# [20:58] <AryehGregor> That would require changing a lot of attributes' behavior. Would it break anything?
# [20:58] <AryehGregor> WebKit seems to treat audio.preload, video.preload, form.enctype as limited to known values too.
# [20:59] <AryehGregor> (which other browsers don't, and nor does the spec)
# [20:59] <volkmar> actually, some time ago i proposed (in a mail) to move the default behavior to be limited to only known values
# [20:59] <Ms2ger> volkmar, yeah, http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy-v2.html seems to prefer WFM, though
# [20:59] * jgraham wonders what the spec bug is
# [20:59] <volkmar> and if, needed, case by case, don't limit the attribute
# [20:59] <jgraham> Am I missing something?
# [20:59] <AryehGregor> What spec bug?
# [20:59] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10290
# [20:59] <AryehGregor> It doesn't say "limited only to known values".
# [21:00] <jgraham> AryehGregor: The testcase you made seems fine afaict
# [21:00] <volkmar> Ms2ger: ok
# [21:00] <jgraham> AryehGregor: button.type has a missing value default
# [21:00] <AryehGregor> jgraham, behavior doesn't match the spec. Look at the details of the rules for reflecting.
# [21:01] <AryehGregor> If it's an enumerated attribute but it doesn't say it's limited to known values, IDL set and get is supposed to work like a normal string.
# [21:01] <annevk5> jgraham, this is purely about IDL attribute behavior
# [21:01] <AryehGregor> So if it's not present, it returns "", etc.
# [21:01] <annevk5> jgraham, IDL attribute behavior of enumerated attributes
# [21:01] <annevk5> jgraham, if it just reflects the content attribute you cannot do feature testing; if it reflects only known values you can
# [21:02] <annevk5> AryehGregor, I suspect no content relies on this, though I'm not a 100% sure of course
# [21:02] <annevk5> AryehGregor, the most problematic are probably knew enumerated attributes on existing elements
# [21:02] <annevk5> s/knew/new/
# [21:03] <annevk5> I just went through the spec; there are not too many either
# [21:05] <jgraham> The sentence about reflecting enumerated attributes that are limited to known values is impossible to read
# [21:05] <jgraham> It is like 5 lines long
# [21:08] <jgraham> (but yeah it is a spec bug)
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# [21:14] <AryehGregor> If you increased your resolution, it wouldn't be five lines long.
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# [21:20] <Matjas> What is up with this? Web Inspector gives the following error: "<noscript> is not allowed inside <p>" Screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/rQSRl.png
# [21:21] <Matjas> But the HTML validates and everything… Is this is a Webkit bug or am I doing something wrong?
# [21:21] <annevk5> sounds like a WebKit bug
# [21:23] <Matjas> annevk5: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/interact/scripts.html#h-18.3.1 says "<!ELEMENT NOSCRIPT - - (%block;)+ "
# [21:23] <Matjas> (That's from HTML4 though)
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# [21:24] <annevk5> HTML4 does not seem relevant
# [21:24] <annevk5> and that does not tell anything about what <p> allows
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# [21:24] <annevk5> though I guess if <noscript> just allows %block; <p> does not allow <noscript>
# [21:24] <annevk5> but still a bug in WebKit
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# [21:39] <annevk5> done deal: http://www.w3.org/News/2010.html#entry-8871 might even blog about this tomorrow
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# [21:41] <AryehGregor> Hurrah.
# [21:41] <Philip`> "W3C Invites Implementations of XMLHttpRequest" - do they think it's still 1999?
# [21:42] <AryehGregor> Quite possibly.
# [21:42] <Philip`> Seems a strange phrase to use in this context
# [21:42] <Hixie> lol
# [21:42] <Hixie> "W3C confirms that it is out of touch"
# [21:45] <gsnedders> Am I the only person who listens to death metal when I want to numb myself?
# [21:46] <jgraham> Don't most people just take anesthetics?
# [21:46] <gsnedders> Well, emotionally numb, not physically.
# [21:46] <jgraham> Ah, so you're not planning to have major surgery just under the influece of death metal?
# [21:47] <gsnedders> Nah
# [21:47] <jgraham> Was inception really that bad?
# [21:48] <gsnedders> Nah
# [21:48] <gsnedders> Inception was pretty good
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# [21:48] <gsnedders> Like, good enough that I didn't realize it was 20:30 until I looked at my watch and then was amazed at how late it was
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# [21:49] <jgraham> So it's very unclear why you are listening to death metal
# [21:50] <gsnedders> Because seeing Inception is all I did today?
# [21:51] <jgraham> Well I suppose work might have been that bad
# [21:51] <gsnedders> Having to work with you always is
# [21:51] <jgraham> Fair point
# [21:51] <jgraham> What we have here is a cycle of badness
# [21:52] <jgraham> Because I hate death metal
# [21:52] <jgraham> So if you listen to more of it, it is likely to make working with me worse
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# [21:53] <jgraham> So you will need to listen to even more death metal
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# [21:53] <jgraham> The only way out is to stop listening to death metal
# [21:53] <jgraham> Or stop working with me
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# [22:02] <gsnedders> Or both
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# [22:06] <annevk5> Hixie, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/html5/current-work/ ought to redirect
# [22:07] <annevk5> Hixie, would also be great to have http://www.whatwg.org/complete as equivalent to http://www.whatwg.org/html
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# [22:09] <AryehGregor> "On setting, the given value must be converted to the shortest possible string representing the number as a valid integer and then that string must be used as the new content attribute value."
# [22:09] <AryehGregor> What if you set it to a non-number?
# [22:09] <AryehGregor> Like "foo"?
# [22:09] <AryehGregor> Another spec bug, or am I missing something?
# [22:09] <annevk5> you are missing the Web IDL layer I think
# [22:09] <AryehGregor> Again. :/
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# [22:24] <annevk5> aah, mark is giving away free copies
# [22:25] <annevk5> I already ordered one
# [22:25] <annevk5> long ago :)
# [22:28] <Hixie> annevk5: where does http://www.whatwg.org/specs/html5/current-work/ come from?
# [22:30] <annevk5> it was a subset of the web-apps draft that was a closer match of the W3C copy of HTML5
# [22:30] <annevk5> before all kinds of things were dropped from W3C HTML5 that we thought should remain included
# [22:32] <Hixie> oh i misread the url, didn't see the /specs/ there
# [22:32] <annevk5> should just redirect to web-apps/ I think
# [22:33] <annevk5> at least that is what I changed it to in XMLHttpRequest
# [22:33] <Hixie> fixed
# [22:33] <annevk5> cool
# [22:33] <Hixie> i thought you were talking about http://whatwg.org/html5/current-work
# [22:33] <Hixie> so i was confused :-)
# [22:33] <hober> Speaking of XHR, I'm so excited browser vendors will implement it now that the W3C has invited them to. </sarcasm>
# [22:33] <annevk5> and http://www.whatwg.org/complete redirecting to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/ ?
# [22:34] <annevk5> hober, would be nice if they implemented it per spec :)
# [22:34] <annevk5> (no sarcasm)
# [22:34] <hober> annevk5: fair enough :)
# [22:34] <Hixie> annevk5: added http://whatwg.org/c and http://whatwg.org/C for you
# [22:35] <Hixie> (c is complete.html, C is complete/)
# [22:35] <annevk5> heh
# [22:35] <annevk5> neat
# [22:35] <Hixie> any others while i'm at it? :-)
# [22:36] <annevk5> hober, I suspect the comm team just issues a normal press release and is not aware of the special circumstances; you can probably email them and get it rectified
# [22:36] <annevk5> Hixie, can't think of any
# [22:36] <Hixie> k
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# [22:41] <Hixie> man, now i'm just saying "Indeed" to tab's e-mails on purpose
# [22:41] <Hixie> (instead of "Right" or "What he said" or "Yes")
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# [22:41] <annevk5> as long as you keep him out of the acknowledgment section we should be ok ;p
# [22:41] <Hixie> :-D
# [22:41] <Hixie> poor tab
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# [22:42] * gsnedders is sure he's missing something
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# [22:49] * jgraham listens as the death metal gets cranked up
# [22:50] <annevk5> you guys still at the office?
# [22:50] <gsnedders> Nah
# [22:50] <annevk5> come on
# [22:50] <annevk5> oh
# [22:50] <jgraham> It was entirely imagined
# [22:51] <jgraham> Well I mean I was listening
# [22:51] <jgraham> He probably ranked up the death metal
# [22:51] <jgraham> I didn't hear it
# [22:51] <jgraham> *cranked
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# [22:51] <gsnedders> I've only once been this late working, and that was right before shipping
# [22:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: Also, I'm listening to goth rock, and did not turn it up
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# [23:00] <sebmarkbage> curious... What's the status on the copy/paste API? Sure, it's a difficult mess but it doesn't seem it has received much love.
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# Session Close: Wed Aug 04 00:00:00 2010

The end :)