/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-08-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Aug 08 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [01:13] <Steve^> Text within a <footer> must also be wrapped in a <p>?
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  14. # [01:28] <aho> Steve^, nop. but it might be handy to have some extra hook for styling purposes
  15. # [01:29] <Steve^> Aha, Text is flow content
  16. # [01:30] <Steve^> Just making sure I can reproduce your answer from the docs :)
  17. # [01:31] <aho> well, it's just like a div... just with some meaning tacked on :>
  18. # [01:32] <Steve^> True, though I wasn't sure in that content either
  19. # [01:32] <Steve^> context
  20. # [01:33] <aho> "when in doubt, validate" ;)
  21. # [01:33] <aho> makes everything easier
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  28. # [02:21] <Steve^> For example on this section: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#e-mail-state it does not appear to list the actual value for the email state, "email"
  29. # [02:22] <Steve^> It is listed in the table above, but it'd be nice to not have to cross-reference
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  33. # [02:48] <Hixie> "actual value"?
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  38. # [03:15] <Steve^> The value to go into the type attribute
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  85. # [10:46] <micheil> Hixie: in what ways is the websocket protocol spec moving forward from the (what seemed like) a break down in communication between WHATWG and IETF
  86. # [10:46] <micheil> ?
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  88. # [10:54] <annevk5> micheil, it's a tad more complicated than that
  89. # [10:55] <micheil> okay, explain then
  90. # [10:55] <annevk5> heh, could have expected that
  91. # [10:55] <micheil> because I'm totally lost at the moment as to what's going on.
  92. # [10:55] <annevk5> we're still communicating
  93. # [10:56] <micheil> okay, it sounded like there was a break down of communication.
  94. # [10:57] <annevk5> I'm not quite sure where it is heading though, but everyone is still there and nobody has been ousted
  95. # [10:57] <micheil> okay
  96. # [10:58] <annevk5> it's mostly that people have somewhat varied views on how extensibility is to be addressed
  97. # [10:58] <micheil> well, are we still going ahead with the draft76 style packet format, or moving towards the VI one?
  98. # [10:58] <micheil> erm, Framing Take IV
  99. # [10:59] <annevk5> ranging from WG in control to wide-open (and also way more complicated)
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  102. # [10:59] <micheil> hmm..
  103. # [10:59] <annevk5> Hixie changed the framing
  104. # [10:59] <micheil> well, from an implementors perspective, using the Framing Take IV is a hell of a lot simpler.
  105. # [10:59] <micheil> did he?
  106. # [10:59] <annevk5> it now uses 64-bit
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  108. # [11:00] <micheil> okay, you've lost me there; let me read up on the spec.
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  110. # [11:01] <annevk5> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/network.html#protocol-overview
  111. # [11:01] <annevk5> frames are now
  112. # [11:01] <annevk5> frame-type frame-length data
  113. # [11:01] <micheil> one moment, safari's busy crashing trying to load the compelte one :P
  114. # [11:01] <annevk5> with frame-length being a length encoded as 8 octets
  115. # [11:01] <annevk5> (the above is multipage)
  116. # [11:02] <micheil> okay, cool
  117. # [11:03] <micheil> so what, is it still using \x00 and \xFF as the start/end delimeters?
  118. # [11:04] <micheil> or are we using just a message is frame-length long
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  120. # [11:04] <annevk5> a message with a type that is frame-length long
  121. # [11:05] <micheil> okay, example?
  122. # [11:05] <annevk5> they're in the spec?
  123. # [11:06] <annevk5> one octet for type (only text and closing supported currently); eight octets for lengths as unsigned 64-bit int; data blob
  124. # [11:07] <micheil> so, example packet may be: <0xFF><11><hello world>
  125. # [11:07] <micheil> <11> being a big endian 64 bit int
  126. # [11:08] <micheil> <hello world> being UTF8 encoded binary data?
  127. # [11:08] <annevk5> yes
  128. # [11:09] <micheil> okay
  129. # [11:09] <micheil> and, if the content was say, binary, it might be something like <0xFE><11><binary data>
  130. # [11:10] <micheil> where <binary data> would be 11 bytes of binary data
  131. # [11:11] <micheil> (if binary data were to be supported)
  132. # [11:11] <micheil> would it make more sense to have one frame-type reserved for metadata, where an example might be:
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  134. # [11:12] <micheil> <0xF0><13><Encoding=UTF8>
  135. # [11:12] <micheil> which would tell the server that the client expects data to be encoded with UTF8 encoding
  136. # [11:13] <annevk5> that requires API changes
  137. # [11:13] <annevk5> on top of which we do not want to support more than one encoding for text
  138. # [11:13] <micheil> (this would be sent onconnect by the client, but could also be sent by calling ws.setEncoding(enc) )
  139. # [11:13] <micheil> where enc maybe a DOMString of either: "binary" or "utf8"
  140. # [11:14] <annevk5> seems simpler to just have a different frame type
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  142. # [11:14] <micheil> okay
  143. # [11:14] <micheil> that sounds fair enough then
  144. # [11:14] <micheil> but then, how do I change between binary and utf8 data?
  145. # [11:14] <micheil> (without requiring massive changes)
  146. # [11:15] <micheil> I'm thinking that when the server receives that Encoding=UTF8, it will then encode all out-going messages as UTF8 data
  147. # [11:15] <micheil> if it receives Encoding=Binary, it will then encode all out-going messages as raw binary data
  148. # [11:17] <micheil> because otherwise the server cannot send binary data
  149. # [11:17] <micheil> unless you make everything always binary data, and only have the clients decode to utf8 or something
  150. # [11:17] <micheil> but that's not a good direction to go
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  152. # [11:20] <annevk5> once binary support is there the server can do whatever it wants
  153. # [11:20] <annevk5> and the javascript library will just handle binary and strings
  154. # [11:20] <annevk5> and in the transition period you can tell the server with a simple text message that your client supports binary
  155. # [11:20] <micheil> yeah, but if the data coming in on the "message" DOMEvent is UTF8 encoded, then you'd have to do odd stuff
  156. # [11:20] <annevk5> from the application layer
  157. # [11:21] <annevk5> a different frame type would be exposed differently in the API
  158. # [11:22] <annevk5> (maybe not for all future frame types; but binary and strings get their own primitive; but since JS doesn't have one for binary; we're waiting)
  159. # [11:22] <micheil> okay, I think it'd make sense to emit just one event "message"
  160. # [11:24] <micheil> and then to change the encoding of those message events, you call a client side API of setEncoding("...")
  161. # [11:24] <annevk5> no
  162. # [11:25] <micheil> okay
  163. # [11:25] <annevk5> just like with XMLHttpRequest send() will just be overloaded
  164. # [11:26] <annevk5> and the data attribute of the message event will be a ByteArray (or whatever it ends up being) rather than a DOMString
  165. # [11:26] <annevk5> (it's of type any after all)
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  167. # [11:28] <micheil> okay, so inside ws.send's function, it'd be something like: if(typeof data === "string") { send as string } else if(typeof data === "bytearray") { encode to binary }
  168. # [11:29] <micheil> would that also mean that the onmessage api would need to do that same, or would it get given the content type?
  169. # [11:29] <micheil> eg, server sends a binary message, then a utf8 message, then another binary message
  170. # [11:30] <micheil> would the events still be: message, message, message, message
  171. # [11:30] <micheil> and would you still get (data) as the arguments to the function call?
  172. # [11:30] <annevk5> it would be just message
  173. # [11:30] <micheil> or would you get: (data, binary)
  174. # [11:30] <annevk5> but data would be of varied type
  175. # [11:31] <micheil> okay
  176. # [11:32] <micheil> so I'd need to manually check for typeof data
  177. # [11:32] <annevk5> you'll always need to do some kind of check; but yes
  178. # [11:33] <micheil> okay
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  180. # [11:33] <micheil> and there's no more usage of that end delimiter format, right?
  181. # [11:33] <annevk5> having said all this, nobody has patched their browser implementation just yet
  182. # [11:33] <micheil> there's just one packet format, no high or low byte messages or what ever they were?
  183. # [11:34] <annevk5> micheil, right (that's not coming back)
  184. # [11:34] <micheil> (I'm just wanting to get up to speed)
  185. # [11:34] <micheil> I kinda got lost wading through the 200 odd emails in 1 or so days last week
  186. # [11:34] <annevk5> well, the binary/text stuff has remained the same; it's just the packaging that's different now
  187. # [11:35] <annevk5> from an API point of view nothing really changed
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  189. # [11:35] <annevk5> yeah, it's kind of crazy
  190. # [11:35] <micheil> yeah
  191. # [11:35] <micheil> as long as both text and binary share the same actually packaging around them when sent on the wire, I'm cool with that.
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  216. # [14:08] <gsnedders> Wikipedia is distracting.
  217. # [14:20] <annevk5> and writing a complete test suite is hard
  218. # [14:20] <annevk5> even "just" for XMLHttpRequest
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  241. # [17:32] * AryehGregor discovers apt-get install pastebinit
  242. # [17:37] * gsnedders discovers he is incapable of writing for any period of time now
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  245. # [17:41] <Philip`> gsnedders: I'd blame Twitter
  246. # [17:43] <Philip`> (Also, IRC)
  247. # [17:43] <micheil> the main part is getting into the right mental frame to be able to write.
  248. # [17:48] <gsnedders> micheil: A length delimited or sential delimited frame?
  249. # [17:49] <micheil> >_>
  250. # [17:49] <micheil> preferably a length delimited frame
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  254. # [18:00] * drunknbass|away is now known as drunknbass
  255. # [18:01] <Workshiva> I would prefer sentinel delimited, with the sentinel being "I have nothing more that needs writing"
  256. # [18:01] <annevk5> would be nice if dev.w3.org had a favicon
  257. # [18:02] <micheil> Workshiva: hmm, that could work
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  279. # [19:18] * hdhoang encounters a page for which html5 parser is more useful than chromium's \o/ ( http://www.ishmael.org/Education/Writings/ )
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  293. # [19:57] <gsnedders> "Note: There will be at least one such element, by definition." — I don't get how there will be.
  294. # [19:59] <Ms2ger`> <p class="note">There will be at least one such element, by definition.<!-- (If there wasn't, then this algorithm wouldn't have been invoked by Web IDL.) --></p>
  295. # [19:59] <gsnedders> Ah
  296. # [19:59] * gsnedders tries to work out why
  297. # [20:01] <gsnedders> Oh, the "corresponding name property", I think…
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  299. # [20:14] <gsnedders> Philip`: You had a bug on SpiderMonkey about Math.sin varying between x86 and x86-64, no?
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  302. # [20:24] <Philip`> gsnedders: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=531915 ?
  303. # [20:24] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yeah, thanks
  304. # [20:32] <gsnedders> Philip`: Also, if you want more things to test in your canvas test suite, you could take a look at http://codingforums.com/showthread.php?t=198624
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  308. # [21:18] <AryehGregor> No one much seems to have commented on the srcdoc issue.
  309. # [21:18] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-100-objection-poll/
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  312. # [21:45] * AryehGregor has his doubts about whether srcdoc is actually very useful, to be honest
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  327. # [23:17] <Hixie> seriously tempted to ask if i can use http://alexkessinger.net/story/html5-brief-one-paragraph as the abstract for the spec
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  334. # [23:43] <Steve^> I notice that the intention is for the UA to replace the content of <time> with a locale-specific form. I think it'd be helpful to have a set format describing how the UA would do this, or else it is difficult to use the value in the right context
  335. # [23:44] <Steve^> For example it may be important to the content to stress that a date was on a saturday. So I could do Saturday <time datetime="2010-08-07">8th August</time>. But for all I know the UA could convert this to Saturday Sat 8th Aug 2010
  336. # [23:49] * AryehGregor is a little skeptical of the idea of locale-specific rendering here.
  337. # [23:49] <Workshiva> Steve^: Where does it say that?
  338. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> Hmm, it seems not to? Good.
  339. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> Sounds like a bad idea.
  340. # [23:50] <Steve^> In the time element text
  341. # [23:50] <Steve^> Here is another way that could be marked up. In this example, legacy user agents would say "today", while newer user agents would render the time in a locale-specific manner based on the value of the attribute.
  342. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait.
  343. # [23:50] <Steve^> ^ quote
  344. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> That's non-normative.
  345. # [23:51] <AryehGregor> What it actually says in normative text is "If the datetime attribute is present, the user agent should convey the attribute's value to the user when rendering the element."
  346. # [23:51] * AryehGregor is unsure whether that's useful.
  347. # [23:51] <Steve^> What does non-normative mean?
  348. # [23:52] <AryehGregor> Means "not really part of the standard, just meant to help you understand the actual requirements, ignore it if it contradicts normative text".
  349. # [23:52] <Steve^> Oh
  350. # [23:52] <Steve^> The text I refer to isn't even inside the non-normative "box"
  351. # [23:52] <Workshiva> But there seems to be something in the bindings section
  352. # [23:53] <AryehGregor> It's in <div class="example">, thus non-normative.
  353. # [23:53] <Workshiva> When the time binding applies to a time element, the element is expected to render as if it contained text conveying the date (if known), time (if known), and time-zone offset (if known) represented by the element, in the fashion most convenient for the user.
  354. # [23:53] <Steve^> I didn't read the code...
  355. # [23:54] <Steve^> I'm a little confused now to your opinion on the matter
  356. # [23:54] <Steve^> Is the spec right or wrong?
  357. # [23:54] <Workshiva> Steve^: It looks like you're right
  358. # [23:54] <Steve^> I'm right that it's silly?
  359. # [23:55] <Workshiva> Maybe
  360. # [23:55] <Steve^> As an aside, this non-normative stuff sounds misleading and shouldn't be in the spec if it's not valid
  361. # [23:56] <Workshiva> Well, "a locale-specific way" gives the UA a license to do pretty much anything it wants
  362. # [23:57] <Steve^> which is impossible for content authors to predict
  363. # [23:57] <AryehGregor> File a bug.
  364. # [23:57] <Workshiva> I think it's one of those problems that won't actually occur
  365. # [23:57] <AryehGregor> Why not?
  366. # [23:57] <Steve^> It seems that there are two seperate use cases here: One for text that should be easily cross-referenced to a calendar and the second for showing dates in a locale-specific manner
  367. # [23:57] <Workshiva> That UAs will magically all decide on formats that don't include the day of week
  368. # [23:58] <Steve^> Sure
  369. # [23:58] <AryehGregor> But why do we actually want it to be locale-specific?
  370. # [23:58] <AryehGregor> That would just be weird.
  371. # [23:58] <AryehGregor> Like a Chinese person seeing dates in Chinese on an otherwise English page?
  372. # [23:58] <Steve^> I think these two use cases conflict... with the former I probably want the value of "today" or "Saturday" to persist, with the true date hidden until asked for
  373. # [23:59] <Workshiva> AryehGregor: More like "Let the user configure the browser to show a sensible date format instead of that American rubbish"
  374. # [23:59] <Steve^> AryehGregor, 10/02/2010 vs 02/10/2010 for 10th Feb
  375. # [23:59] <AryehGregor> And if you're trying to guess whether 6/7/2010 refers to June 7 or July 6, you now have to not only take into account whether the site you're on is mainly American or British, but also try to guess whether it used <time>, and if so, what your browser thinks the right order is for you?
  376. # [23:59] <AryehGregor> Seems like a recipe for confusion.
  377. # [00:00] <Steve^> If it used time it will be 2010-07-06 for 6th July and not ambiguous
  378. # Session Close: Mon Aug 09 00:00:00 2010

The end :)