/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-08-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 12 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  26. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> IE9PP4 is a real trainwreck on my reflection tests, compared to any other browser I've tested. Except maybe Opera, but Opera doesn't work on it anymore. (Any progress, gsnedders?)
  27. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> (I mean, Opera doesn't work on the test, it gives some crazy JS error)
  28. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> pp4 is doing plenty of weird js things, I've found.
  29. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> apparently [].indexOf doesn't exist in it at the moment.
  30. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> Is it easier to write cross-browser JS than with previous IE versions, though?
  31. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> My tests don't even run in IE8.
  32. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> At least they complete in IE9PP4.
  33. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> No clue yet. I don't write cross-browser js.
  34. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> You just use jQuery?
  35. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> I either target decent browsers, or write jquery.
  36. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> Heh.
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  38. # [00:34] <AryehGregor> Looks like IE9 will still be an odd duck, but way less than ever before.
  39. # [00:34] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Didn't have time to look
  40. # [00:34] * drunknbass is now known as drunknbass|away
  41. # [00:34] <AryehGregor> I doubt I'll ever have the patience to track down all its errors on my reflection tests, though.
  42. # [00:35] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Uh, if that was true nothing would work
  43. # [00:35] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Like, jQuery would be totally b0rked
  44. # [00:35] <AryehGregor> I'm doing it for WebKit and Gecko, but IE is way more failures.
  45. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Hey, that's the error it gives me when I try to run my manufactoria emulator.
  46. # [00:35] * TabAtkins goes to duplicate it, to be sure.
  47. # [00:35] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Odd
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  49. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> ...
  50. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> I must be crazy. It works just fine now.
  51. # [00:39] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Totally.
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  53. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Still wont' animate SVG, but at least the presence of an animation no longer does weird scaling things.
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  96. # [02:34] <Philip`> Clearly it was too much to hope for, that a decision on longdesc would let us move on from discussing it
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  99. # [02:40] <TabAtkins> Well, yeah. I expected an email like that.
  100. # [02:40] <TabAtkins> And now, of course, foliot claims he'll file a FO on it.
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  283. # [13:01] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: The OOM is caused by trying to create a 2^32 - 1 square canvas.
  284. # [13:01] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Every other browser seems to lazily create the canvas, we don't.
  285. # [13:02] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: If you add it to the document, I think every browser will hit OOM.
  286. # [13:03] * Philip` thought most browsers had upper limits on the size (like 10000^2 or something)
  287. # [13:05] <jgraham> Maybe fail silently?
  288. # [13:06] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: (and seeming my computer doesn't have (2^32-1)^2 * 4 bytes of RAM, you're way off into impl-specific hardware limitations)
  289. # [13:06] * drunknbass is now known as drunknbass|away
  290. # [13:13] <gsnedders> (you'd nee 64 EiB)
  291. # [13:13] <gsnedders> *need
  292. # [13:22] <roc> hey
  293. # [13:22] <roc> think data compression
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  295. # [13:40] <gsnedders> roc: But you can't have the entire thing compressed, as then when you change a single pixel you'd have to uncompress the entire canvas, no?
  296. # [13:41] <gsnedders> (and there goes all semblance of performance)
  297. # [13:41] <roc> depends on the scheme
  298. # [13:41] <gsnedders> So you vary scheme based upon canvas size?
  299. # [13:41] <roc> in principle you could store an entire list of vector operations in the canvas and storage would be totally resolution independent
  300. # [13:42] <gsnedders> Gah, that's not what I mean at all
  301. # [13:42] <roc> but I'm not all that serious
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  304. # [13:42] <gsnedders> In this case it may just be down to how soon you allocate the pixel buffer
  305. # [13:42] <roc> actually a fairly reasonable optimization that browsers could do is cap the internal canvas buffer size and just downscale as needed
  306. # [13:44] <roc> that would be quite easy to implement and work pretty well in memory constrained situations
  307. # [13:44] <Philip`> You don't need physical memory for the parts you're not drawing onto, you just need virtual address space, so you could wait for 66-bit architectures and then allocate the entire (2^32-1)^2 bitmap at once
  308. # [13:49] <gsnedders> So setting the IDL attribute doesn't cause us to allocate the buffer, but setting the content attribute does
  309. # [13:58] <gsnedders> That's totally untrue
  310. # [13:58] <gsnedders> Remembering to save makes a difference :)
  311. # [13:58] <gsnedders> We allocate when setting width/height, other browsers don't.
  312. # [14:02] <cheeser> is there a public svn/git/hg repo where the spec docs are kept?
  313. # [14:03] <Philip`> cheeser: http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/
  314. # [14:04] <cheeser> grazie
  315. # [14:05] <cheeser> and the websocket spec is in there somewhere?
  316. # [14:06] <cheeser> ah. section 10.3 of complete.html
  317. # [14:07] <cheeser> this is pretty different text than http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-socket-protocol/
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  335. # [15:24] <annevk5> where in CSS does it state that absolute positioning happens against the padding box origin of the containing block?
  336. # [15:27] <Workshiva> Is it the padding or the containing box you care about?
  337. # [15:28] <annevk5> the padding box of the containing box
  338. # [15:28] <annevk5> it states absolute positioning happens against the containing block; but the containing block consists of several boxes, margin box, border box, padding box, content box
  339. # [15:29] <annevk5> it is not at all detailed on where the box is positioned against in most pieces of the text I read so far
  340. # [15:30] <Workshiva> As far as I can see it doesn't state anything on that level, it simply states that the containing box is the nearest positioned ancestor, rather than the direct parent
  341. # [15:30] <Workshiva> So you'd use the same box you would normally
  342. # [15:30] <Ms2ger> What made you think it would be detailed?
  343. # [15:30] <annevk5> Ms2ger, don't make me -- you ;p
  344. # [15:31] <Ms2ger> :)
  345. # [15:31] <annevk5> Workshiva, that would be against the origin of the content box, but I think that is not what happens
  346. # [15:31] * annevk5 make a better test
  347. # [15:34] <annevk5> see http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/588
  348. # [15:34] <annevk5> maybe this was already an open issue
  349. # [15:34] * annevk5 checks that
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  351. # [15:45] <Workshiva> Hmm
  352. # [15:47] <Workshiva> Looks like it uses the padding box, yeah
  353. # [15:49] <Workshiva> "Note: For absolutely positioned elements whose containing block is based on a block-level element, the percentage is calculated with respect to the width of the padding box of that element."
  354. # [15:49] <Workshiva> Part of the spec seems to be aware of it
  355. # [15:51] <jgraham> """The stack of open elements cannot have both a td and a th element in table scope at the same time, nor can it have neither when the insertion mode is "in cell"."""
  356. # [15:52] <jgraham> That is wrong in the fragment case, no?
  357. # [15:52] <jgraham> That is if you do tdElement.innerHTML then you will have neither <td> nor <th> in table scope
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  367. # [16:16] <annevk5> so it is defined people
  368. # [16:17] <annevk5> bert bos to the recsue :)
  369. # [16:17] <annevk5> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#containing-block-details 4.2
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  371. # [16:17] <annevk5> (somewhat confusing imo, but that's what it is)
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  376. # [16:27] <davidhund> svn up
  377. # [16:27] <davidhund> woops. :-/
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  387. # [17:03] <annevk5> changed offsetTop/offsetLeft per longstanding emails on the subject
  388. # [17:04] <annevk5> apparently I cannot email outside of Opera until after midnight here (someone hit a cable close to Opera HQ o_O) but the change is comitted
  389. # [17:05] <annevk5> I guess I should now change the terminology slightly to make it more confusing
  390. # [17:05] <annevk5> e.g. instead of padding box of element it should be padding box of the first CSS layout box associated with element
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  398. # [17:21] <jgraham> hsivonen: (in the hope you pick this up when you get back from vacation), I just changed the html5lib test format slighly to allow non-HTML elements as the container in the innerHTML case
  399. # [17:21] <jgraham> So if you do
  400. # [17:22] <jgraham> #document-fragment
  401. # [17:22] <jgraham> svg svg
  402. # [17:22] <jgraham> that will be like setting innerHTML on a SVG element in the SVG namespace
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  404. # [17:25] <annevk5> except in theory there's no innerHTML on <svg:svg>
  405. # [17:25] <annevk5> are we changing that?
  406. # [17:25] <annevk5> (I'm in favor, fwiw)
  407. # [17:26] <jgraham> Oh
  408. # [17:27] <jgraham> Well the parser spec suggests it can happen
  409. # [17:27] <jgraham> I didn't read the DOM APIs
  410. # [17:27] <jgraham> It seems crazy not to change it
  411. # [17:29] <annevk5> does it do the right thing?
  412. # [17:29] <annevk5> seems nice
  413. # [17:29] <jgraham> Well afaict it doesn't work in Fx at the moment
  414. # [17:30] <jgraham> although I wonder what happens if you call it with a this object that happens to be a svg node
  415. # [17:30] <annevk5> I mean in the draft
  416. # [17:30] <jgraham> Oh
  417. # [17:31] <jgraham> Well the parser seems to assume it can happen
  418. # [17:31] <jgraham> I'm not sure it works, but it shouldn't obviously not work
  419. # [17:31] <jgraham> if you see what I mean
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  424. # [17:35] * jgraham notes that since it is a setter you can't really change the this object, which is sad
  425. # [17:38] <jgraham> Oh well that makes my life boring
  426. # [17:38] <annevk5> makes it or keeps it -- harhar
  427. # [17:38] * annevk5 is also slightly bored
  428. # [17:39] * annevk5 is looking at the mess that is scrollTop/scrollLeft and standards/quirks
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  431. # [17:39] * annevk5 and also <html> / <body>; it's a big party
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  436. # [17:47] <jgraham> Hmm, even messing around with __lookupSetter__ doesn't work
  437. # [17:47] <jgraham> I wonder if there is a reason for that
  438. # [17:47] <jgraham> I mean apart from implementation complexity
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  440. # [17:50] <jgraham> Oh well, I guess I should leave support for it in the test format so that it is there once I convince Hixie it's a good idea :)
  441. # [17:51] <annevk5> ooh, I didn't quite mean it like that
  442. # [17:52] <annevk5> I was just wondering whether the algorithms worked nicely for cases like innerHTML = "<rect/>"
  443. # [17:52] <annevk5> not sure what specification should hook into it
  444. # [17:52] <annevk5> maybe the SVG integration spec if that's going anywhere
  445. # [17:52] <annevk5> but not having a spec hasn't stopped us before...
  446. # [17:53] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@216.239.45.130) (Remote host closed the connection)
  447. # [17:54] <jgraham> well if you doo innerHTML = "<svg><rect/>" it should all work fine
  448. # [17:54] <jgraham> it's just you can't do SVGElement.innerHTML = "<rect/>"
  449. # [17:54] <jgraham> Which is weird and inconsistent
  450. # [17:57] <jgraham> I mean it shouldn't be any harder to get right than HTMLTableElement.innerHTML = "<a></table><tr>" or whatever
  451. # [17:57] <jgraham> and I have a local copy of html5lib that supports it now so I guess I can test
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  453. # [18:04] <jgraham> Ah, it doesn't quite work at the moment
  454. # [18:04] <jgraham> Because the root node is always in the HTML namespace
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  456. # [18:05] <jgraham> But one could put the root node in the namespace of the context node and take whatever steps needed to ensure that was never popped off teh stack of opene elements
  457. # [18:05] <jgraham> and work from there
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  460. # [18:18] <annevk5> so much for accepting the decision of the almighty chairs
  461. # [18:18] <annevk5> lol
  462. # [18:18] <Workshiva> Link?
  463. # [18:19] <annevk5> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20100812#l-167
  464. # [18:20] <Workshiva> So there's no mechanism for doing a long alternative write-up for a complex image apart from the half a dozen ones suggested many times?
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  466. # [18:21] <Workshiva> Talk about putting the implementation before the use case
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  470. # [18:25] <jgraham> I don't really understand what a Formal Complaint is. I assume it is a Formal Objection
  471. # [18:25] <jgraham> But I don't understand what is so bad about those
  472. # [18:27] <Lachy> AIUI, a formal objection just means that it has to be recorded and disclosed to the director before publication.
  473. # [18:28] <Lachy> there's nothing inherently bad about them, it just gives one final bit of oversight, and a way for objectors to overrule the editor and the chairs, in the event that the editor and chairs made a major mistake
  474. # [18:28] <jgraham> Yes, but there seems to be a deeper dislike of them. Like if someone is just unhappy with a decision that is fine, but if they start using the word "Formal" people scramble to react
  475. # [18:29] <Lachy> mostly because most objections are just a waste of time, and a way to continue keeping an issue open well after it should have been dismissed
  476. # [18:30] <Lachy> AFAIK, it's rare for a formal objection to be acted upon, and it needs to be a very serious issue
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  480. # [18:33] <Lachy> but I think in the HTMLWG, too many people just start throwing around calls for formal objections too much when they don't get their way.
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  485. # [18:34] <Workshiva> As far as I understand, you can only object to the way the decision was made, not the decision itself
  486. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> I observe that if the chairs actually change their mind here, then we'll be obliged to go file formal objections and make up new arguments after the decision too, whenever anything doesn't go our way. But I guess that's what you get from having too much hierarchy, everyone can always question decisions ad infinitum.
  487. # [18:35] * Quits: Phae (~Phae@chimera.macmillan.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  488. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> Workshiva, well, if the decision is insane enough, ipso facto it was made through an incorrect procedure, insofar as correct procedures should prohibit excessively insane ideas.
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  490. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> (moderately insane is okay for the web, needless to say)
  491. # [18:35] <jgraham> AryehGregor: That doesn't sound like too much heirachy.
  492. # [18:36] <Workshiva> AryehGregor: I don't think you can axiomatically rule out excessively insane ideas
  493. # [18:36] <Workshiva> XHTML2 had a great run
  494. # [18:36] <jgraham> In a very heirachical system the people at the top would just make a decision and everyone would have to live with it
  495. # [18:36] <jgraham> Or kill them, I guess
  496. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> A characteristic of hierarchy is that most decisions are made by lower people, who can be overruled by higher people.
  497. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> So you can make lots of appeals.
  498. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> In a flat hierarchy, there are no appeals.
  499. # [18:37] <Workshiva> Well, the gamble on FOs is that the higher up in the system you go, the less the decision-maker knows about the decision, so it's more likely he will agree with you even if you're wrong
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  501. # [18:37] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I guess that makes sense
  502. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> The problem with too many appeals is it allows jurisdiction-shopping. If it doesn't go your way, try again! And again! And again!
  503. # [18:38] <jgraham> Well I assume that is what will happen here
  504. # [18:38] <AryehGregor> The W3C isn't too bad in this respect, to be fair. Only one of the appeal levels is insanely over-bureaucratic.
  505. # [18:38] <AryehGregor> (namely, appeal to the chairs)
  506. # [18:38] <AryehGregor> Formal Objections are pretty simple and hassle-free, plus I take it they tend to get a polite "Thank you for your concern, duly noted" response from TBL, so they're mostly a formality.
  507. # [18:39] <jgraham> Since the decision went the way it did, it will be taken up with the a11y coordination people who will make it an inter-group issue so circumventing the HTMLWG decision making process
  508. # [18:39] <AryehGregor> Although the danger of that is that sometimes they can randomly become not a formality and suddenly the Director actually has dictatorial power over everything at the W3C.
  509. # [18:39] <Workshiva> Well, I wonder if he even sees all the formal objections...
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  511. # [18:40] <jgraham> Although possibly the a11y people will accept that longdesc is at best a distraction from reall accessibility issues
  512. # [18:40] <jgraham> *real
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  514. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> (I was told about a professor who was denied tenure at a university, and appealed to the interim president, which is usually just a formality. The interim president was applying to be the full president, and part of that required a vote of tenured faculty. Curiously, he gave the person tenure in this case. Got her vote, huh?)
  515. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> The a11y people could describe an extension spec to HTML5 in their own WG, I guess.
  516. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> The great thing about standards is you have so many to choose from!
  517. # [18:41] <jgraham> Yes, of course
  518. # [18:41] <jgraham> That would circumvent the whole issue
  519. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> In practice it makes no difference, since the only ones who seem to care about maintaining a validator are the WHATWG people.
  520. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> And as far as the general public is concerned, validators are the final arbiters of standardness.
  521. # [18:42] <jgraham> I guess the PR value of being part of the full spec is deemed worthwhile
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  523. # [18:43] <jgraham> Or maybe people are not making rational decisions
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  525. # [18:43] <jgraham> That is normal, so I guess likely in this case too
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  562. # [19:55] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, thanks for the diagnosis, fixed in the latest test version.
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  565. # [19:56] * drunknbass|away is now known as drunknbass
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  569. # [20:22] <henrikbjorn> a hgroup cant contain a img element right ?
  570. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#the-hgroup-element
  571. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> It can only contain h[123456].
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  573. # [20:24] <henrikbjorn> that makes me sad
  574. # [20:26] <Workshiva> Can't you put the img inside a h123456?
  575. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> Sure, although I will immediately point out that the word "contain" is not well-defined and therefore my answer is arguably accurate anyway.
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  578. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> Hmm, so MS has dropped support for distributed extensibility. Hopefully that means it's dead.
  579. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> (support as in advocacy in the WG, I mean, obviously)
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  583. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> I think I just accidentally selected most of the HTML5 spec and attempted to paste it into an e-mail.
  584. # [20:37] * AryehGregor reloads tab
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  586. # [20:42] * TabAtkins reloads
  587. # [20:45] <Hixie> cheeser: should be the exact same text -- the text file is generated from the html each time i change the html
  588. # [20:45] * temp01 is now known as away01
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  590. # [20:51] <cheeser> Hixie: hrm. ok. things like the abstract and such don't appear to be in the html version.
  591. # [20:52] <cheeser> no big deal, though. i like the html formst.
  592. # [20:52] <cheeser> format
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  597. # [21:09] <Hixie> cheeser: the abstract is in a title="" attribute
  598. # [21:10] <Hixie> some of the boilerplate is brought in from other bits, but all the normative content is the same
  599. # [21:10] <Hixie> some of the stuff, e.g. the definition of the "ASCII case-insensitive" is much earlier in the HTML version
  600. # [21:10] <Hixie> s/the//
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  603. # [21:11] <cheeser> fair enough. i've been looking for an html version for a while so this is nice.
  604. # [21:11] <cheeser> having the svn history will be nice, too.
  605. # [21:12] <cheeser> gotta find out what I need to change. ;)
  606. # [21:13] <Hixie> :-)
  607. # [21:13] <Hixie> see also http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
  608. # [21:13] <Hixie> shows you the diffs
  609. # [21:13] <Hixie> bbiab
  610. # [21:13] <cheeser> i get the twitter updates, too, but Intellij IDEA has a nice contextual diff that's a bit easier to read
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  617. # [21:33] * gsnedders wants a decent blogging platform
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  620. # [21:49] <karlushi> gsnedders, what would be your requirements… that would lead to a web apps Choose Your blogging platform. You would select your features. If some platforms would meet all your requirements, you would get the list of them. If none, the message would be "ROLL YOUR OWN"
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  623. # [21:58] <gsnedders> karlushi: Doing that manually leads to "ROLL YOUR OWN". Then I remember I'm lazy.
  624. # [21:58] <gsnedders> :)
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  626. # [21:59] * drunknbass|away is now known as drunknbass
  627. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> What do you have against Wordpress?
  628. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> I'm vaguely thinking I want a blog too.
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  630. # [22:05] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: The community around it died long ago. It's now little more than a for-profit company (i.e., Automattic) paying for everything and controlling the entire project, and as far as I can tell it's even harder now than when there was a community around it (when it was hard enough) to get code in
  631. # [22:05] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
  632. # [22:05] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Also: it tries to output XHTML, no way to change that to HTML. No way to guarantee it is well-formed…
  633. # [22:05] <AryehGregor> What are other choices you've considered?
  634. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> "Roll your own" leads to an annoying lack of features.
  635. # [22:06] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Hint: there's a reason why I ended up fairly heavily involved in Habari shortly after that went public (which is half the people the WP community used to be)
  636. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> Like no e-mail notification for comments, if comments are supported at all . . .
  637. # [22:06] * AryehGregor has never heard of Habari
  638. # [22:06] <gsnedders> (Basically fed up with the direction of the project, started a new blogging platform)
  639. # [22:06] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~henrik@c83-249-70-242.bredband.comhem.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  640. # [22:06] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: I don't think it ends up being significantly XHTML (that is, non-html-compatible), though. My old company's blog is run on Wordpress, and it works great.
  641. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> If it were non-HTML-compatible, it wouldn't work.
  642. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> So, yeah.
  643. # [22:07] * Parts: jamesr (~jamesr@nat/google/x-pmurijfhlqdsdjys)
  644. # [22:07] <gsnedders> Right. But even then, it's still trivial to get the things that are XML (like feeds) to not be well-formed
  645. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> Ah, yeah, probably.
  646. # [22:08] <gsnedders> (Habari doesn't have that problem)
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  649. # [22:11] <gsnedders> http://www.blogkazani.com/yazi/interview-with-habari-developers has a fair bit about Habari's beginnings
  650. # [22:11] <gsnedders> (it's also really old)
  651. # [22:11] <gsnedders> (that post, not Habari)
  652. # [22:12] * Joins: ojan (~ojan@nat/google/x-zvasxbeiycojyzwt)
  653. # [22:14] <gsnedders> (disclaimer: I am on the PMC of Habari)
  654. # [22:15] <gsnedders> (Most of my issues with it are more down to things that PHP makes hard, like Unicode, more than anything really related to the impl)
  655. # [22:15] * Joins: remysharp (~remysharp@cpc2-brig17-2-0-cust448.brig.cable.virginmedia.com)
  656. # [22:15] <gsnedders> (And my few issues with the impl are things where you'd need to rewrite large parts of it to fix)
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  658. # [22:19] * karlushi is rolling his own but has very few features requirements
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  661. # [22:20] <gsnedders> karlushi: Yeah, I don't exactly have many either.
  662. # [22:25] <Rik`> karlushi: http://lab.pheromone.ca/ looks like a wordpress :)
  663. # [22:25] <karlushi> Rik`, it is :) but that it is not my own ;) and sincerely I do not like it at all :)
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  669. # [22:36] <aho> ah yea... just remembered... i'd like to see proper automatic hyphenation in browsers
  670. # [22:37] <aho> adding &shy; entities everywhere is just stupid
  671. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> Discussing that right now, actually, in the www-style list.
  672. # [22:37] <aho> and using a script is slow and wasteful
  673. # [22:37] <aho> :o
  674. # [22:37] <aho> http://nitens.org/taraborelli/latex#justification
  675. # [22:37] <aho> that one reminded me :>
  676. # [22:37] <Hixie> hyphenation is one of those things where doing it 50% right is easy, and doing it 100% right is so insanely hard as to be ludicrous
  677. # [22:37] <Hixie> but 50% right is often 50% wrong :-/
  678. # [22:38] <aho> well, text-align:justify is currently pretty useless, isn't it? :>
  679. # [22:38] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-vezjeayzkqahjmyf)
  680. # [22:38] <aho> no one wants to read stuff like this.
  681. # [22:39] <Hixie> just don't use long words :-D
  682. # [22:39] <Hixie> or don't justify :-)
  683. # [22:39] <aho> went with option #2
  684. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> Use text-align-last when that gets implemented.
  685. # [22:39] <aho> i'm doing german sites most of the time... there will be very long words everywhere
  686. # [22:40] <Hixie> ah well there's your problem
  687. # [22:40] <Hixie> using german!
  688. # [22:40] <Hixie> should use a proper language, like french
  689. # [22:40] <Hixie> or english
  690. # [22:40] <aho> my faviorite word is "Verblödungsstrahlenkanone" by the way :>
  691. # [22:40] <Hixie> or one based on ideographics
  692. # [22:40] <gsnedders> Hixie: Why did I expect you to say that about German? :)
  693. # [22:41] <Hixie> aho: Dementia ray gun?
  694. # [22:41] <gsnedders> Hixie: If your parents had lives a few hundred km east…
  695. # [22:41] <aho> pretty much, yea
  696. # [22:41] <gsnedders> *lived
  697. # [22:41] <Hixie> gsnedders: then they'd be in lichenstein
  698. # [22:41] <aho> that was from some silly cartoon
  699. # [22:41] <Hixie> aho: hah
  700. # [22:41] <aho> i just liked the word a lot :)
  701. # [22:42] <gsnedders> Hixie: How far is it from Genève to Fribourg, for example?
  702. # [22:42] <gsnedders> (I know there are closer places that are German speaking, but, in terms of major places there can't be many much closer…)
  703. # [22:42] <Hixie> dude switzerland is so small you can pretty much hit anywhere in switzerland by just throwing a stone
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  705. # [22:43] <Hixie> most of fribourg speaks french, dude
  706. # [22:43] <aho> omelette du fromage
  707. # [22:43] <gsnedders> Hixie: I remember Genève to Fribourg taking an hour or two by train. That's a long way to a ten year old. :P
  708. # [22:44] <aho> mh. haven't eaten that since ages
  709. # [22:44] <aho> thanks dexter
  710. # [22:44] <Hixie> geneve to zurich takes like 3 hours
  711. # [22:44] <aho> :>
  712. # [22:44] <gsnedders> Hixie: Well, it's on the linguisitic fronteir, so there's more German there than in Geneva ;P
  713. # [22:44] <gsnedders> * :P
  714. # [22:44] <Hixie> geneva is an outlier
  715. # [22:45] <Hixie> there's probably more arabic or english or german or chinese or any number of other languages in geneva than any neighbouring town
  716. # [22:45] * gsnedders does know the relative location of places in Geneva, but has no real idea of distance
  717. # [22:45] <gsnedders> I was just writing that talking about language in a place like Geneva is a bit silly
  718. # [22:45] <aho> oh yea... sorta kinda... speaking of which... i'm going to the fronteers conf :D
  719. # [22:45] * aho jumps up n down
  720. # [22:46] <Hixie> gsnedders: you're the one who brought up geneva :-P
  721. # [22:46] * Joins: cyphase (~cyphase@adsl-99-35-130-49.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  722. # [22:46] <gsnedders> Hixie: Well, yeah. But you're the one who was brought up in Geneva. :P
  723. # [22:47] <gsnedders> Could've been born somewhere sensible like Zurich, but no…
  724. # [22:47] <Hixie> zurich is just a localised build of geneva
  725. # [22:47] <Hixie> in my experience
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  729. # [22:48] <Workshiva> Speaking of Zürich
  730. # [22:49] <gsnedders> Well, I remember it feeling a lot cooler than Geneva. There again, the one day I was out in Geneva was 39°C, and the hottest day on record
  731. # [22:49] * Joins: jgornick (~joe@199.199.212.242)
  732. # [22:49] <Workshiva> There was a Schwingen flash mob here this week, apparently
  733. # [22:49] <Workshiva> Saw it in the newspaper this morning
  734. # [22:49] <Steve^> Hey gsnedders, the outliner on your website doesn't seem to be working when you upload files
  735. # [22:49] <gsnedders> Steve^: Seems plausible.
  736. # [22:49] * gsnedders never uses it
  737. # [22:49] <Steve^> Is there another one on the web?
  738. # [22:49] <gsnedders> Steve^: can you email me?
  739. # [22:50] <Steve^> I could do...
  740. # [22:50] * gsnedders heads off to sleep
  741. # [22:50] <gsnedders> (there is no other one AFAIK)
  742. # [22:50] <Steve^> shame
  743. # [22:50] <Steve^> I don't have your email address
  744. # [22:50] <Steve^> nor am I sure why I'm emailing you
  745. # [22:51] <gsnedders> me@gsnedders.com to tell me it's b0rked when uploading files?
  746. # [22:51] <gsnedders> So I actually remember? :P
  747. # [22:51] <Steve^> ok, ok
  748. # [22:53] <Steve^> seems like everyone on the internets links to that same outliner
  749. # [22:55] <Hixie> what do you call the blanket that that peanuts character used to take around with him everywhere?
  750. # [22:55] <Workshiva> Safety blanket?
  751. # [22:55] <Hixie> a blanket someone uses for comfort?
  752. # [22:55] <Hixie> ok, that's what i thought
  753. # [22:55] <Hixie> but the web is not supporting my belief
  754. # [22:56] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:0:1b00:1191:5904:3619:2930:47cc)
  755. # [22:56] <Workshiva> Steve^: As long as the existing one works, there's no incentive to create a second version
  756. # [22:56] <Hixie> aha, wikipedia says Security blanket
  757. # [22:56] <Steve^> indeed
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  762. # [23:03] <paul_irish> anyone by chance know if the dataTransfer object is accessible outside of an event in webkit? (Mozilla exposes it globally)
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  768. # [23:24] <AryehGregor> Okay, so why is document.createElement("output").htmlFor an object in Firefox?
  769. # [23:25] <AryehGregor> That's the last Firefox failure on my reflection tests for now that I haven't filed either spec or browser bugs on, other than just missing features.
  770. # [23:26] <Workshiva> readonly attribute DOMSettableTokenList htmlFor;
  771. # [23:26] <Workshiva> Hum
  772. # [23:27] * Joins: payman_s (~payman@81-229-81-24-no65.tbcn.telia.com)
  773. # [23:28] <Workshiva> How do you test the type?
  774. # [23:29] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait.
  775. # [23:29] <AryehGregor> It's my bad.
  776. # [23:29] <AryehGregor> My test is wrong.
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  780. # [23:29] <Workshiva> And all's right with the world
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  785. # [23:33] <AryehGregor> I see, it's a string on <label> but a settable token list on <output>.
  786. # [23:34] <Workshiva> Yeah, because output can "label" multiple controls
  787. # [23:35] * AryehGregor discovers that his ad hoc data storage format can't cope with an IDL attribute on two different elements having the same name but different type if the content attribute name is different from the IDL attribute name
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  977. # [23:46] <AryehGregor> Okay, so I've identified about four different bugs in Gecko from my tests.
  978. # [23:47] <AryehGregor> I see about that many WebKit bugs too.
  979. # [23:47] <AryehGregor> Opera is considerably more, probably because it tries to copy IE . . . IE9PP4 is a *lot*.
  980. # [23:48] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-ctvsvlqhpejgnuyr) (Quit: brb)
  981. # [23:49] * AryehGregor calls it quits for today
  982. # [23:49] <Rik`> AryehGregor: bugs about ?
  983. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> Reflection.
  984. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> http://aryeh.name/tests/bugs_filed.txt
  985. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> (Mostly I've found spec bugs, in fact.)
  986. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> (I haven't found many WebKit/IE bugs yet, but only because I haven't systematically filed them yet.)
  987. # [23:52] <AryehGregor> (One of the Firefox bugs I filed is more legitimately a spec bug.)
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  991. # Session Close: Fri Aug 13 00:00:00 2010

The end :)