/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-08-15 / end

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  62. # [08:27] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  63. # [08:27] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  77. # [10:57] <micheil> Hixie: are you about?
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  100. # [13:01] <Workshiva> Re: the BBC article on Friday
  101. # [13:01] <Workshiva> "For this reason we are committed to the aims of HTML5. In combination with CSS3 and Javascript it promises a step forward for the web."
  102. # [13:01] <Workshiva> They actually managed to separate CSS3 from HTML5!
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  107. # [13:11] <annevk5> oh my god
  108. # [13:11] <annevk5> Shelby Moore is back
  109. # [13:11] <annevk5> and it just got better
  110. # [13:11] <annevk5> "Let me confess that I have only been studying the entire issue of Comet,
  111. # [13:11] <annevk5> BOSH, WebSocket, and this mailing list, for a several hours. I came to
  112. # [13:11] <annevk5> this from Wikipedia, because I need to choose an architecture strategy for
  113. # [13:11] <annevk5> a social network I am developing. So take my comments as one perspective
  114. # [13:11] <annevk5> of an outsider (but an outsider with considerable experience in web
  115. # [13:11] <annevk5> development and successful commercial software both pre-internet and
  116. # [13:11] <annevk5> post). "
  117. # [13:12] <Workshiva> Several hours, impressive
  118. # [13:13] <annevk5> this stuff is great
  119. # [13:13] <annevk5> and he's already flooding the mailing list
  120. # [13:14] <Workshiva> I'm considering reading the public-html archives for July
  121. # [13:17] <annevk5> "Sorry to drop a Snicker bar in the swimming pool. Maybe someone can set me straight."
  122. # [13:19] <annevk5> context
  123. # [13:19] <annevk5> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1132620717&count=1
  124. # [13:20] <annevk5> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1041735552&count=1
  125. # [13:20] <Workshiva> It wasn't Snickers
  126. # [13:20] <Workshiva> I wish people would keep their references straight
  127. # [13:20] <annevk5> http://www.glazman.org/weblog/newarchive/2003_01_05_glazblogarc.html#s87008479
  128. # [13:21] <Workshiva> Commenting on people's names and it's only the second paragraph... hoo boy
  129. # [13:23] <Ms2ger> "This really has to end some time, but I will reply again in detail"
  130. # [13:23] <Ms2ger> Now that's a gem.
  131. # [13:23] <annevk5> I quite like the one about how he works well in multiple dimensions
  132. # [13:23] <annevk5> or when the epiphany happens in your mind
  133. # [13:23] <Workshiva> 'Conflated'
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  135. # [13:25] <Workshiva> <princess bride quote/>
  136. # [13:26] <Workshiva> So did he ever release Cool Page 4?
  137. # [13:28] <annevk5> does it matter?
  138. # [13:28] <annevk5> he's obviously amazing
  139. # [13:29] <annevk5> anyway, boarding time
  140. # [13:29] <Workshiva> Well, if it's as cool as he says, I want to use it!
  141. # [13:29] <Ms2ger> Hmm, I missed http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg03198.html
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  143. # [13:32] <Workshiva> http://www.cssquirrel.com/comic/?comic=66
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  154. # [14:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yay! Applying a SEP field worked!
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  156. # [14:27] <Workshiva> Eventually you ascend beyond applying to a SEP to considering powering the actual field to be SEP
  157. # [14:27] * gsnedders isn't sure his head can think such things yet today
  158. # [14:29] <Ms2ger> Make thinking about it a SEP?
  159. # [14:31] <Workshiva> This talk about meta charset=utf-16 (yes, I'm a month behind) seems like an accident waiting to happen
  160. # [14:38] <Workshiva> "@srcdoc, for the first time, introduces HTML markup into attribute values. This is bad design."
  161. # [14:38] <Workshiva> But the alternative solution, using data: URLs, is of course completely cool
  162. # [14:41] <Philip`> A data: URI isn't markup, it's an identifier of a resource representation that contains markup
  163. # [14:42] <Philip`> Totally different things
  164. # [14:42] <Workshiva> Of course
  165. # [14:42] <Workshiva> That's why it's completely cool
  166. # [14:43] <Workshiva> Wow, that's a lot of mail about @alt in private email
  167. # [14:53] * Workshiva wonders how the mimeheads expect servers to be configured to provide correct audio and video codec subparameters in content-type without looking at the file contents
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  169. # [14:57] <jcranmer> Workshiva: file ?
  170. # [14:58] <Workshiva> jcranmer: ?
  171. # [14:59] <jcranmer> use the file program
  172. # [14:59] <jcranmer> yes it looks at file contents, but you can assume it's a black box
  173. # [14:59] <jcranmer> and plead operational ig
  174. # [14:59] <jcranmer> norancce
  175. # [14:59] <Workshiva> Sure, but that's still sniffing
  176. # [15:00] <jcranmer> either that, or you require that the filename contains the codec in there
  177. # [15:01] <Philip`> Store the files with metadata
  178. # [15:01] <Philip`> either in the filesystem or in a database or something
  179. # [15:02] <erlehmann> use file extension :P
  180. # [15:02] <Philip`> rather than sticking with the boring old primitive view that one URL = one file on the disk
  181. # [15:02] <Workshiva> Well, you can replace file with resource representation
  182. # [15:03] <Philip`> The representation already has content-type metdata so there's no problem from that point
  183. # [15:03] <Workshiva> We're at the stage where the server is trying to decide what to emit
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  187. # [15:57] <erlehmann> Is there a test suite for serving media files? I figured out I had to handle range-requests and send an X-Content-Duration request but am unsure if my ad-hoc webserver is doing it right.
  188. # [15:58] <erlehmann> And having curl as your only validation tool is kinda weak.
  189. # [15:58] <Workshiva> Try redbot.org
  190. # [16:06] <erlehmann> thx, interesting.
  191. # [16:16] <erlehmann> My content-lenght is 248 bytes too long. Everytime.
  192. # [16:16] <erlehmann> o.0
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  200. # [17:06] <micheil> hmm... anne's not here anymore?
  201. # [17:08] <Ms2ger> <annevk5> anyway, boarding time
  202. # [17:09] <micheil> k, I didn't see the part message
  203. # [17:10] <micheil> hmm.. Is someone trying to change the WebSocket protocol further away from where it was starting to head?
  204. # [17:10] <micheil> or, rather proposing a different client-side API?
  205. # [17:13] <jgraham> micheil: no to the secod part. Possiblyt to the first part depending on what you meant
  206. # [17:13] <micheil> well, what's that thing on the hybi list about a) sendTextMessage(char []buffer, int offset, int length); // JavaScript 16-bit text send
  207. # [17:14] <micheil> because the one thing I constantly hear from developers is how easy the client side websocket API is to work with.
  208. # [17:14] <jgraham> micheil: I think that was not about the js-api
  209. # [17:15] <micheil> I actually have a proposal for the client-side api (which is/should be backwards compatible), if we do get a consensus on the binary sending of data
  210. # [17:15] <jgraham> It was examples of possible api styles in general
  211. # [17:15] <jgraham> People seem to be interested in non-js clients
  212. # [17:15] <micheil> I'm thinking to indicate binary data, you would add on a second argument
  213. # [17:15] <micheil> there should be one client side api.
  214. # [17:16] <micheil> no matter what. Because really, why would you need to change it.
  215. # [17:16] <jgraham> micheil: If you build e.g. a python client the api will likely look different
  216. # [17:16] <micheil> not really
  217. # [17:17] <jgraham> micheil: Well python code is not necessarily evented
  218. # [17:17] <jgraham> depending on what you are doing
  219. # [17:17] <micheil> well, the sending on a websocket isn't evented at all.
  220. # [17:17] <gsnedders> To take a more extreme example, a Haskell impl would likely be even more radical
  221. # [17:17] <micheil> it's actually blocking, iirc.
  222. # [17:17] <jgraham> Receiving is also part of the api
  223. # [17:17] <micheil> okay, true, functional programming languages would be different, but an object oriented or similar language would not
  224. # [17:18] <micheil> true
  225. # [17:18] <jgraham> Anyway, in the js case, you don't need any parameters to indicate binary or not
  226. # [17:18] <gsnedders> jgraham: (please don't murder me for mentioning Haskell)
  227. # [17:18] <micheil> yeah, you could use typeof
  228. # [17:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: What? You make no sense
  229. # [17:18] <micheil> (and similar methods)
  230. # [17:18] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well every time I've mentioned Haskell on IRC with you around recently…
  231. # [17:18] <jgraham> micheil: in the implementation you just have send(data)
  232. # [17:19] <jgraham> and if data is a String you make a text frame and if it is a Blob you make a binary frame
  233. # [17:19] <micheil> currently a thing we do in node.js, is that in order to send non-utf8 data but by storing it as a string, we do something like:
  234. # [17:19] <jgraham> s/Blob/BinaryArray/ or whatever
  235. # [17:19] <jgraham> gsnedders: You still make no sense
  236. # [17:19] <micheil> socket.write("\xff", "binary");
  237. # [17:19] <jgraham> All I have said is that Haskell has a steep learning curve
  238. # [17:19] <micheil> if the second argument is blank, I believe it'll actually default to UTF8
  239. # [17:20] <micheil> or ascii
  240. # [17:20] <jgraham> gsnedders: Why I would murder you because of that fact is not at all clear
  241. # [17:20] <micheil> which ever is the default set by socket.setEncoding
  242. # [17:20] <jgraham> I don't evcen think it is a controversial statement
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  244. # [17:22] <micheil> annevk5: moin.
  245. # [17:22] <annevk5> hey hey
  246. # [17:23] <annevk5> discussion on list is about the wire format (well, apart from the current Shelby Moore entertainment)
  247. # [17:23] <annevk5> the API is unlikely to be affected
  248. # [17:23] <micheil> what's with that, any way?
  249. # [17:24] <annevk5> the wire format?
  250. # [17:24] <annevk5> it seems like we will get something more complicated
  251. # [17:25] <micheil> currently I'm really liking the direction of having a length indicator
  252. # [17:25] <annevk5> mostly due to Google
  253. # [17:25] <annevk5> sure
  254. # [17:25] <micheil> perhaps have two length indicators? The first which is the metadata length, the second which is the message length
  255. # [17:25] <micheil> if that's part of the issue?
  256. # [17:30] <micheil> annevk5: what's the issue google has with the protocol?
  257. # [17:33] <annevk5> they want more features in the initial version essentially
  258. # [17:34] <annevk5> gotta run
  259. # [17:34] <micheil> ouch
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  261. # [17:34] <micheil> is there a list of these features?
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  269. # [18:35] <henrikbjorn> from what i understand in the spec a <article> dosent have to includ a <header> is that right ?
  270. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> Sounds right
  271. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> You'll probably want a h1, though
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  280. # [19:32] <henrikbjorn> Ms2ger: the problem is the article is a comment and comments dont have a headline
  281. # [19:32] <Ms2ger> Then I guess it's fine
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The end :)