/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-08-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 19 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  28. # [01:03] <Hixie> well, the conclusion from this afternoon's work is that browsers suck except for firefox
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  30. # [01:03] <Hixie> and possibly opera
  31. # [01:05] <daedb> what do they suck at?
  32. # [01:05] <Workshiva> All browsers suck, really
  33. # [01:05] <Workshiva> It's just a question of magnitude
  34. # [01:06] <Hixie> http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/video/001.html - temporarily hangs safari, chrome sniffs but lets the mime type affect UI behaviour, opera sniffs (per html spec), and firefox refuses to sniff at all (per http spec)
  35. # [01:06] <Hixie> haven't been able to test IE9
  36. # [01:07] * daedb tests IE9...
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  39. # [01:08] <daedb> Hixie: IE9 shows the h264 video for all mime types
  40. # [01:08] <Hixie> and nothing for the others?
  41. # [01:08] <Hixie> and it starts at the same point for all of the ones that play?
  42. # [01:09] <daedb> nothing under ogg or webm columns
  43. # [01:09] <Hixie> k, thanks
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  45. # [01:09] <Hixie> well of the browsers that sniff, that's the most rational behaviour
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  47. # [01:10] <daedb> all videos that play look the same to me
  48. # [01:10] <Hixie> excellent
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  50. # [01:11] <daedb> I'm only doing a quick look though, nothing too thorough :)
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  54. # [01:17] <Hixie> bbiab
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  64. # [01:44] <nessy> OMG that web page turns my machine into a turbo-heater!
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  94. # [02:56] <boblet> TabAtkins: yt?
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  109. # [04:00] <othermaciej> good lord, the NPN thread
  110. # [04:00] <othermaciej> just when I thought dealing with WebSocket protocol stuff couldn't get any more tine-consuming
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  130. # [05:02] <erlehmann> anyone aware of a gzip compression implementation in javascript?
  131. # [05:03] <jacobolus> mcarter: did anyone ever do gzip in javascript that you know of?
  132. # [05:03] <jacobolus> erlehmann: you might try asking in channels w/ more specifically javascript devs
  133. # [05:03] <jacobolus> erlehmann: e.g. someone in #node.js might have some idea
  134. # [05:04] <erlehmann> i found one that writes zip files, but behaves funny … it does not compress.
  135. # [05:04] <jacobolus> anyway, good luck. I'm outta here
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  161. # [06:16] <nimbupani> hey MikeSmith
  162. # [06:25] <MikeSmith> hey, it's nimbupani
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  186. # [07:44] <micheil> annevk5: has anyone bothered to ask the biggest question of websockets: do we actually need protocol extensions?
  187. # [07:45] <micheil> like, I mean, what percentage of users / developers are actually going to use them?
  188. # [07:46] <hober> yes, that point has been raised on a number of occasions on the hybi list
  189. # [07:46] <hober> by maciej, ian, adam, and others
  190. # [07:46] <micheil> right, just thought I'd check
  191. # [07:47] <micheil> because really, I think we're going a little bit over the top with it all.
  192. # [07:47] <micheil> it's meant to be a simple transport method.
  193. # [07:47] <micheil> not the one-and-only ring-to-rule-them-all transport method.
  194. # [07:48] <micheil> like, sending a DVD over websockets, you probably should be doing that. Just use file transfers using http, that's already existent.
  195. # [07:49] <micheil> s/you probably should be doing/you probably shouldn't be doing
  196. # [07:54] <cardona507> one-and-only-ring-to-rule-them-all transport method - nice
  197. # [07:54] <hober> I'm sure you can easily imagine that you're preaching to the choir here. :)
  198. # [07:55] <micheil> good point.
  199. # [07:55] <micheil> I should get a few of the guys I know at Yahoo! to weigh in on it.
  200. # [07:55] <micheil> because I know some of the things they are planning to do / try with websockets are quite what it was necessarily designed for.
  201. # [07:55] <cardona507> you going to the crockford tech talk at yahoo! on the 27th?
  202. # [07:56] <micheil> sadly not.
  203. # [07:56] <cardona507> Yeah - I am looking forward to it
  204. # [07:56] <cardona507> talking about node
  205. # [07:56] <micheil> (well, not that I've been invited to have a plane fair paid :P)
  206. # [07:56] <micheil> wait. 27th august?
  207. # [07:56] <cardona507> heh
  208. # [07:56] <cardona507> yep
  209. # [07:56] <cardona507> next week
  210. # [07:57] <micheil> dang. wouldn't be able to go even if I wanted to.
  211. # [07:57] <micheil> curse exams.
  212. # [07:57] <micheil> :D
  213. # [07:57] <cardona507> http://www.meetup.com/BayJax/calendar/14371278/
  214. # [07:57] <cardona507> curse exams indeed :)
  215. # [07:58] <micheil> seriously.. pretty much missed any possibility to go to jsconf this year due to exams too. and I get to miss WDS due to more exams.
  216. # [07:58] <micheil> what's with that?
  217. # [07:58] <cardona507> hopefully a good degree
  218. # [07:58] <cardona507> or a good startup partner
  219. # [07:58] <micheil> actually, it's not a degree at all.
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  221. # [07:59] <micheil> wrong level of education.
  222. # [08:00] <micheil> cardona507: this would be high school (final year) level.
  223. # [08:00] <cardona507> no way - nice - congrats
  224. # [08:00] <cardona507> I was about to type 'dr?'
  225. # [08:00] <cardona507> :)
  226. # [08:01] <micheil> haha, well, I've actually started my uni degree as well.
  227. # [08:01] <cardona507> computer science?
  228. # [08:01] <micheil> (well, I've completed one of the modules, I still have about 6 core modules of compsci left.)
  229. # [08:01] <micheil> yeah, a computer science degree.
  230. # [08:02] <cardona507> what languages?
  231. # [08:02] <micheil> it's just general at the moment
  232. # [08:02] <cardona507> what language do you intend to focus on?
  233. # [08:02] <micheil> javascript?
  234. # [08:02] <micheil> :P
  235. # [08:02] <cardona507> cool
  236. # [08:03] <cardona507> FTW
  237. # [08:03] <micheil> probably either javascript, C, or Erlang
  238. # [08:03] <micheil> not that I've done much of the latter two
  239. # [08:04] <cardona507> me neither
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  241. # [08:04] <cardona507> i like JS though
  242. # [08:05] * micheil will bbl.
  243. # [08:05] <cardona507> ttyl
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  264. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> bobchao: congrats on what seemed to be a really successful COSCUP
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  285. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> hmm, cvs update kinda seems to take a long time when you have a directory with 1034 files in it
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  339. # [10:36] <jgraham> MikeSmith: This is where we mock you for using CVS, right?
  340. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> heh
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  375. # [11:17] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  376. # [11:17] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  377. # [11:17] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  378. # [11:17] -pratchett.freenode.net:#whatwg- [freenode-info] why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
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  555. # [11:24] <annevk5> netsplit much?
  556. # [11:24] <annevk5> actually, sending DVDs over WebSocket is something the pro-simple camp brought up
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  619. # [11:38] <Rik`_> MikeSmith: yeah you're right, other than testing people won't click twice
  620. # [11:38] * Rik`_ is now known as Rik`
  621. # [11:38] <gsnedders> eighty4: lunch soonish?
  622. # [11:39] <eighty4> gsnedders: yeah, I'm starting to get hungry. But if I eat to early I will get hungry again to soon
  623. # [11:39] <Rik`> but I see this message while downloading : "loading… loading…"
  624. # [11:39] <Rik`> MikeSmith: is it intended ?
  625. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> heh
  626. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> Rik`: no, that's a bug
  627. # [11:39] <gsnedders> eighty4: Have more meals! :)
  628. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> Rik`: that I will fix in a bit
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  630. # [11:41] <eighty4> gsnedders: that wouldn't work. If I eat 11 I need food again around 17, but that's to early for my girlfriend to eat dinner. So I'd have to eat dinner at 19 as well. That just wouldn't work ><
  631. # [11:43] <eighty4> gsnedders: so what would you like to eat? Would a salad at fräcka frökens work?
  632. # [11:44] <gsnedders> eighty4: I'd rather something bigger
  633. # [11:44] <eighty4> pizza at forno italia?
  634. # [11:45] <gsnedders> That works for me
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  640. # [11:47] <gsnedders> eighty4: Meeting outside here at 11:55 work for you?
  641. # [11:47] <gsnedders> (or 12?)
  642. # [11:48] <eighty4> 11.55 works good. Or I could just go right now
  643. # [11:48] <gsnedders> Okay
  644. # [11:49] <eighty4> try to get to forno 2 minutes earlier then everybody else
  645. # [11:49] <eighty4> *me leaves*
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  651. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> Rik`: fixed the loading… loading… loading… thing
  652. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> thanks for the feedback and checking, btw
  653. # [11:58] * slightlyoff is now known as slightlyoff_afk
  654. # [11:59] <micheil> hmm.. anyone know who that Shelby Moore on the hybi mailing list represents?
  655. # [12:00] <annevk5> it's some kind of troll
  656. # [12:03] <Philip`> Is it trolling if you don't recognise or accept that that's what you're doing?
  657. # [12:04] <micheil> I believe so.
  658. # [12:05] <Philip`> micheil: Have you seen http://www.glazman.org/weblog/newarchive/2003_01_05_glazblogarc.html#s87008479 for relevant background information?
  659. # [12:09] <jgraham> micheil: http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1041735552&count=1
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  664. # [12:44] <micheil> Philip`, jgraham: do you think it'd be allowed to be mandated that for each protocol extension that a person / group wishes to have, that they show code for the implementation and provide documentation as to how it follows the original intent and goals of the websocket protocol?
  665. # [12:45] <micheil> like, not just psuedo code, but actual code showing how much complexity it would add to the parsing of the packets, etc.
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  667. # [12:45] <Philip`> Has anyone agreed to follow the original intent and goals, or even agreed on what the intent and goals are?
  668. # [12:47] <micheil> I always thought that they were to create a simple bi-directional communication channel for which browsers could communicate with servers and servers could communicate with browsers in an asynchronous way.
  669. # [12:48] <jgraham> micheil: What do you mean "protocol extension"?
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  671. # [12:49] <micheil> as in, anything added to the framing, handshaking or otherwise that isn't absolutely necessary for the communication of plain data
  672. # [12:49] <micheil> for instance, you message format, as simple as it may seem could be as simple as:
  673. # [12:49] <micheil> [frame-type][frame-length][frame-data]
  674. # [12:50] <micheil> frame-type being something like the flags currently defined
  675. # [12:50] <jgraham> Right, I think it is reasonable to ask people to show the code for cases where they want complexity. And people have been doing that
  676. # [12:51] <micheil> frame-length being the 7bits or what ever we're currently at
  677. # [12:51] <micheil> jgraham: so far I haven't seen much code
  678. # [12:51] <micheil> I've seen outlines of the packet format, but no implementations of it
  679. # [12:52] <micheil> (I'm not too sure I'm even reading the outlines of the packet format correctly)
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  681. # [12:53] <micheil> bbl.
  682. # [12:53] <jgraham> micheil: There was one recent message with code
  683. # [12:53] <jgraham> and someone pointed out that it assumed a particularly simple case
  684. # [12:53] <jgraham> so there is evidence that code focuses the discussion somewhat
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  688. # [13:29] <annevk5> http://twitter.com/kangax/status/21506116839 hmm
  689. # [13:30] <annevk5> I guess they are not doing that in quirks mode...
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  755. # [16:59] <MikeSmith> goddammit
  756. # [16:59] <MikeSmith> is there a way to have mercurial use actual pathnames in diffs
  757. # [16:59] <MikeSmith> instead of whatever this a/ b/ shit
  758. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> jesus
  759. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> I want to meet the jackass who came up with that
  760. # [17:00] <Philip`> Why do you want that?
  761. # [17:01] <Philip`> If you're passing it to patch you can just add '-p1' or whatever to strip it off
  762. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> I'm really the diff from one level above the directory where the .hg subdir is
  763. # [17:02] <davidhund> tidy
  764. # [17:02] <davidhund> erm, oops
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  766. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> and I do hg diff anolis/
  767. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> and I get a diff with: +++ b/anolislib/processes/terms.py Fri Aug 20 00:00:23 2010 +0900
  768. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> if I do -p1, I will just get +++ anolislib/processes/terms.py Fri Aug 20 00:00:23 2010
  769. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> right?
  770. # [17:04] <Philip`> Yes (I think)
  771. # [17:05] <Philip`> patch -p1 -d anolis < example.diff
  772. # [17:05] <Philip`> might do something useful
  773. # [17:05] <Philip`> (or might not)
  774. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> ok
  775. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> will try
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  800. # [18:21] <MikeSmithX> http://www.w3.org/Public/Bugs seems to be down
  801. # [18:21] <MikeSmithX> hopefully not for long
  802. # [18:21] <gsnedders> MikeSmithX: Plz fix. Kthxbai.
  803. # [18:21] <MikeSmithX> heh
  804. # [18:22] <MikeSmithX> I've already pinged systems team
  805. # [18:23] <jgraham> MikeSmithX: Did you try M-x butterfly?
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  808. # [18:24] <MikeSmithX> jgraham: will try it if I can do it in Vim…
  809. # [18:25] <gsnedders> Also: The Birthday Massacre are awesome.
  810. # [18:25] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  811. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: I wish you luck finding musical playpals
  812. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> most of my friends dislike most of the music I like
  813. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> so the only appropriate reaction is, too bad
  814. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> friends have their pros and cons
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  816. # [18:27] <gsnedders> A managed to not get murdered for putting on metalcore with friend round yesterday. I guess I'm lucky.
  817. # [18:27] <jgraham> Evidence that metal is just silly item #55467 The stupid number of sub-genres
  818. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> but it would help if you weren't so keen on Christian Metalic Emo Noise Rock
  819. # [18:28] <jgraham> MikeSmith: What? I thought he was into Christian Metalic Emo Rock Noise!
  820. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> no, gsnedders hates that stuff
  821. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: what's wrong with just listening to. e.g. Belle and Sebastian?
  822. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> girls love that stuff
  823. # [18:29] <jgraham> Well he would, if he's into Christian Metalic Emo Noise Rock
  824. # [18:29] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: More variety needed.
  825. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> I mean it's a great way to impress girls with your sensitivity
  826. # [18:29] * jgraham confirms this works :)
  827. # [18:29] <gsnedders> I think ending up curled up in their arms in tears shows sensitivity too.
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  830. # [18:31] <vals_> it also gets you closer to their interesting parts
  831. # [18:31] <vals_> but anyway. does anybody know why the talk about which kind of pizza to eat is marked as "important lines" in the logs?
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  833. # [18:32] <gsnedders> Because someone marked it as important.
  834. # [18:32] <gsnedders> Probably someone hungry.
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  836. # [18:32] <vals_> 8-D
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  839. # [18:34] <gsnedders> Also: girls' "interesting parts" are overrated.
  840. # [18:34] <paul_irish> o.O
  841. # [18:35] <vals_> I guess that depends on your taste
  842. # [18:36] * gsnedders has been pretty much asexual for the majority of this year
  843. # [18:36] <pesla> :o
  844. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> . . .
  845. # [18:37] <gsnedders> (and more or less aromantic as well)
  846. # [18:37] <pesla> Will the real gsnedders please stand up?
  847. # [18:38] <vals_> I've been aromatic for the majority of this summer
  848. # [18:38] <vals_> too frigging hot
  849. # [18:38] <gsnedders> *aromantic
  850. # [18:38] <gsnedders> No, I did spell it correctly.
  851. # [18:39] <vals_> anyway, I have an actual questio about the new web standard, and specifically the relation between hN and sections
  852. # [18:39] <gsnedders> Damnit, confusing me!
  853. # [18:39] <vals_> yeah, you spelled it correctly 8-D
  854. # [18:39] <gsnedders> hmm, I should probably get the outliner back up
  855. # [18:39] <vals_> (outliner?)
  856. # [18:39] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  857. # [18:39] <gsnedders> http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/
  858. # [18:40] <gsnedders> Oh, it's working again
  859. # [18:40] <gsnedders> That makes it simpler
  860. # [18:41] <vals_> so, the question is the following: h1, h2, ... h6 represent headings of (implied) sections, with the relative rank being useful to determine whether a new section starts or just a subsection starts
  861. # [18:41] <vals_> is that correct so far?
  862. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> If you use them that way, yes. The other acceptable thing is to just use <h1> for everything.
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  864. # [18:42] <gsnedders> with hn, n is meaningless within section
  865. # [18:42] <gsnedders> outwith of section, n is used to determine whether a new section or subsection starts
  866. # [18:42] <vals_> that's exactly what I wanted to get to. so if I do my sectioning explicitly for each heading, it doesn't really matter what section level I use, right?
  867. # [18:42] <gsnedders> right.
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  869. # [18:43] <vals_> now, if I was using CSS for styling, one of the advantages of using different hN is that styling would be automatic, more or less
  870. # [18:43] <annevk5> MikeSmith, isn't it at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/
  871. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> annevk5: yeah
  872. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> just typoed it
  873. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> anyway, I think it's back up now
  874. # [18:44] <vals_> if I only use h1 and do the sectioning manually, I have to do something to say "style this way every h1 that happens under exactly N sections"
  875. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> I think the mysql server was stopped and restarted
  876. # [18:44] <vals_> (more or less)
  877. # [18:45] <gsnedders> vals_: yeah
  878. # [18:48] <vals_> that's going to be a little painful 8-P
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  881. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> That's part of why :any() is proposed.
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  883. # [18:52] <vals_> yes, :any() would help a lot, and not just in this case
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  887. # [19:04] <jeromegn> hey guys
  888. # [19:05] <jeromegn> is there an easy way to reconnect a websocket when it's closed?
  889. # [19:05] <jeromegn> I'm guessing I have to manually implement that in my app...
  890. # [19:10] <eighty4> gsnedders: aroudn?
  891. # [19:10] <eighty4> *around
  892. # [19:11] <eighty4> gsnedders: I've found you a FF bug that Opera handles as it should (IMO at least :))
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  921. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> Philip`: btw, hg diff seems to have neither a -p nor -d option
  922. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> so its name is not wholly accurate
  923. # [20:01] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: They're optons on patch
  924. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> maybe it should be call hg deficient-diff
  925. # [20:01] <Philip`> diff doesn't have those options either
  926. # [20:02] <MikeSmith> or maybe hg not-quite-as-deficient-as-the-diff-in-svn-diff
  927. # [20:02] <Philip`> (at least not any with those effects)
  928. # [20:02] * MikeSmith scrolls back to read what Philip` said
  929. # [20:02] <MikeSmith> ah
  930. # [20:02] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: patch.
  931. # [20:02] <Hixie> i wonder how all these formal objections will be handled
  932. # [20:02] <MikeSmith> hai hai hai
  933. # [20:02] <MikeSmith> gsnedders, Philip` - I was just testing you guys
  934. # [20:02] <MikeSmith> so, congrats in passing the test
  935. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/FormalObjection
  936. # [20:03] * Quits: slightlyoff_ (~slightlyo@204.14.154.186) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  937. # [20:04] <Hixie> i mean whether tim is going to do anything with them
  938. # [20:04] * payman is away:
  939. # [20:05] <Hixie> (cos there's a number of things i don't particularly like the decisions of, and if tim is going to actually revert any of the decisions, it seems like it'd be worth giving it a shot)
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  942. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, I imagine that same thought is crossing a few other people's minds
  943. # [20:06] <gsnedders> It seems like overruling a WG decision would piss off a load of people, probably more so than the people already pissed off enough to be raising it
  944. # [20:07] <gsnedders> So, uh, I'd doubt it.
  945. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> Which is why, of course, most FOs just get stamped with a "Thanks for raising, move along now.", as far as I know.
  946. # [20:07] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: indeed
  947. # [20:08] <Hixie> well i've only been on one transition call, which had an FO discussed, and while I don't think Tim had any idea what the objection was about, I will give him ample credit for apparently giving it quite a fair hearing
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  949. # [20:08] <Hixie> (to be fair it was an XBL2 issue so it's not clear anyone actually understood the issue)
  950. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> So no, Hixie, I don't expect anything to happen with the FOs, and I don't think it would be useful to raise any yourself, unless the WG does something *really* stupid.
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  953. # [20:11] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: I don't recommend acting on the assumption that nothing with happen with the formal objections
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  955. # [20:13] <MikeSmith> and for any given decision the WG had made, I reckon I can find someone who thinks it is really stupid
  956. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> Oh, MikeSmith, while you're here: Who do I talk to to see if there's anything weird going on with w3's mailing systems that would cause someone to get spammed with over a thousand copies of one of my emails to the CSSWG over the past 2 months?
  957. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: I recommend going on #sysreq on irc.w3.org
  958. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> and getting attention of the systems team
  959. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> and trying to get a response in real time
  960. # [20:14] <TabAtkins> kk
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  962. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> if the person who received the messages can forward them, with the headers
  963. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> that would of course be a huge help
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  986. # [20:57] <annevk5> sigh -- http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10202
  987. # [20:57] <annevk5> I should have advocated more strongly for a codecs attribute of some sorts
  988. # [20:57] <annevk5> any type of media type parsing that involves parameters always gets ugly
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  1001. # [21:39] <jgraham> annevk5: Does 12 opcodes seem like enough?
  1002. # [21:40] <jgraham> It feels like you could quite quickly be adding opcodes that mean "there are more opcodes"
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  1005. # [21:42] <jgraham> Also, I am increasingly worried about the complete message length stuff. There are lots of SHOULDs and MAYs floating around which I expect to cause interoperability problems
  1006. # [21:43] <jgraham> I expect some servers will break with fragmented messages unless clients fragment from the start (e.g. simple servers that only deal with text)
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  1008. # [21:47] <annevk5> not sure
  1009. # [21:48] <annevk5> i suspect you want something for video
  1010. # [21:48] <annevk5> maybe json
  1011. # [21:48] <annevk5> can't really think of much else
  1012. # [21:49] <annevk5> of course, famous last words and all :)
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  1015. # [21:55] <llrcombs> hmmm
  1016. # [21:55] <llrcombs> y'know, a copy/paste API would be great
  1017. # [21:56] <annevk5> spec it
  1018. # [21:56] <vals_> hm is it just me or it's imposttible to style list item numbers independently from the list item themselves without nesting a p in the li and resetting the style in the p?
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  1020. # [21:57] <annevk5> yeah, ::marker might solve that at some point
  1021. # [21:59] <llrcombs> http://pastebin.com/tJMFxt2t
  1022. # [22:02] <annevk5> llrcombs, not a spec :)
  1023. # [22:03] <MikeSmith> content should be a list
  1024. # [22:03] <llrcombs> so like a copybuffer?
  1025. # [22:03] <annevk5> jgraham, so I expect clients to not use fragments
  1026. # [22:03] <MikeSmith> so that you can have a history
  1027. # [22:03] <annevk5> jgraham, but the magical intermediaries might fragment
  1028. # [22:03] <annevk5> jgraham, but since the magical intermediaries are written much later
  1029. # [22:03] <llrcombs> like with Jumpcut?
  1030. # [22:03] <annevk5> jgraham, deploying them might be impossible if servers do not play ball
  1031. # [22:04] <MikeSmith> hey, where's Simon?
  1032. # [22:04] <MikeSmith> zcor..
  1033. # [22:04] * Quits: ChrisLTD (~blahness@ur196.ur.unc.edu) (Quit: ChrisLTD)
  1034. # [22:04] <annevk5> long break
  1035. # [22:04] <llrcombs> so, now I'm pretty much directly cloning UndoManager
  1036. # [22:04] <llrcombs> http://pastebin.com/XgZn9Tsi
  1037. # [22:05] <MikeSmith> my completion on "zcor..." doesn't work
  1038. # [22:05] <MikeSmith> due to lack of Simon presence
  1039. # [22:05] <MikeSmith> I guess I have to wait til he gets back
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  1042. # [22:15] <jgraham> annevk5: Yeah the client doesn't fragment -> server doesn't support fragmentation properly -> intermediaries that fragment break applications to be a problem
  1043. # [22:15] <jgraham> + I expect
  1044. # [22:17] <annevk5> yeah well
  1045. # [22:17] <annevk5> these transcoding proxies always seem a bit of a myth
  1046. # [22:17] <annevk5> but who knows
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  1071. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> "Going forward, I hope that the recommendations made after deliberation by the HTML A11y TF are taken more seriously by the wider group and not unilaterally dismissed."
  1072. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> I can't see any way to read that other than "We should make the final decision on anything accessibility-related, not you."
  1073. # [23:44] <hober> IIRC N-1 TF recommendations have gone over quite well in the wider WG
  1074. # [23:45] <Hixie> clearly #whatwg should send a similar e-mail :-P
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  1076. # [23:45] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I was thinking of responding.
  1077. # [23:45] <AryehGregor> I probably shouldn't.
  1078. # [23:46] <AryehGregor> Stuff like: "The HTML5 A11y TF made the recommendation after much discussion and debate, onlist, off-list and via F2F. We are very aware of the pros and cons of @longdesc but decided that its retention was currently the best option."
  1079. # [23:46] <AryehGregor> You could replace "HTML5 A11y TF" with "WHATWG", and "retention" by "removal".
  1080. # [23:46] <AryehGregor> But it's not worth getting into an argument over. Won't accomplish anything.
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  1082. # [23:47] <Hixie> i strongly recommend letting them make fools of themselves and not doing the same for yourself
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  1084. # [23:47] <AryehGregor> I'm still waiting to see how the appeals turn out.
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  1087. # Session Close: Fri Aug 20 00:00:00 2010

The end :)