/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-08-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Aug 24 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:38] <karlcow> http://www.iamcal.com/png-store/
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  11. # [00:41] <KaOSoFt> karlcow- :o
  12. # [00:42] * eric_carlson_ is now known as eric_carlson
  13. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> Summary: for text, gzip works better than trying to encode as a PNG.
  14. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> I can't say I'm completely surprised.
  15. # [00:50] <Dashiva> Not much of a difference
  16. # [00:50] <Dashiva> Less than 1% it looks like?
  17. # [00:51] <Dashiva> Not bad for compression that's server-independent
  18. # [00:51] <Rik`> gzip is server independent
  19. # [00:53] <Dashiva> Are you saying browsers would sniff out that a script src was actually a .js.gz?
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  21. # [00:55] <Rik`> with the right headers I can serve a gzipped JS, yes
  22. # [00:55] <Rik`> content negociation is only there to check browser support
  23. # [00:55] <Dashiva> Sure, but then it isn't server-independent anymore
  24. # [00:55] <Rik`> on your desktop, it will work too
  25. # [00:56] <Dashiva> Oh, I think we have a misunderstanding
  26. # [00:56] <Dashiva> I don't mean that it would work without a server. I mean it would work without requiring server support.
  27. # [00:57] <Rik`> no it won't
  28. # [00:57] <Rik`> you need to tell your server to serve your images with the right content-type
  29. # [00:57] <Dashiva> Why? Browsers sniff images
  30. # [00:57] <Rik`> I don't think Firefox does
  31. # [00:58] <Rik`> or is it Safari ?
  32. # [00:59] <Rik`> anyway, I'm pretty sure one browser does not do sniffing
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  34. # [01:00] <Dashiva> I'm sure abarth can tell us when he returns :)
  35. # [01:01] <abarth> hi
  36. # [01:01] <abarth> all browsers sniff images
  37. # [01:02] <Rik`> I'm pretty sure I've seen a bunch of strange characters when viewing some images sent as text/plain
  38. # [01:02] <abarth> to be more precise
  39. # [01:03] <abarth> the <img> element ignore the content-type header
  40. # [01:03] <abarth> what happens when you load an image in a frame is more complex
  41. # [01:04] <Rik`> is it the same for CSS backgrounds ?
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  43. # [01:06] <abarth> not sure
  44. # [01:06] <abarth> probably
  45. # [01:07] <Rik`> anyway, the PNG technique is quite useless
  46. # [01:08] <Rik`> funny for a contest but useless
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  50. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, it's only within 1% if you don't account for the JS required to decode it.
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  76. # [03:36] <shepazu> Hixie: reading http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/webappapis.html#event-loops … would events from different devices, such as a mouse and a keyboard, go into the same or different task queues (for the same task loop)?
  77. # [03:36] <shepazu> I was a little confused by your example
  78. # [03:37] <abarth> MikeSmith: enabling fragment parsing is now in the commit pipeline
  79. # [03:37] <shepazu> is it intended that different implementations may organize their task queues differently?
  80. # [03:37] <Hixie> shepazu: looking...
  81. # [03:37] <Hixie> shepazu: (as an aside, you really don't want to be using the TR/ version, it's woefully out of date)
  82. # [03:38] <Hixie> looking at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/webappapis.html#event-loops now
  83. # [03:38] <Hixie> shepazu: they'd likely all go into the user interaction task source
  84. # [03:39] <Hixie> shepazu: the rule of thumb is that you'd use the same task source for two tasks if it matters in what order those two tasks are processed
  85. # [03:39] * abarth is now known as abarth|afk
  86. # [03:39] <Hixie> shepazu: that is in fact the reason we have different task sources -- so that we don't define that, e.g., a packet coming from the network before a keystroke must be processed in that order
  87. # [03:40] * shepazu is adding a section in DOM3Events about task loops and how they relate to the model used by D3E
  88. # [03:40] <shepazu> I see
  89. # [03:40] <shepazu> it's essentially defining a state machine, right?
  90. # [03:41] <Hixie> how so?
  91. # [03:41] <Hixie> it's an event loop
  92. # [03:42] <Hixie> basic building block of software for the past 20 or 30 years :-)
  93. # [03:45] <shepazu> maybe I've got that relationship reversed :)
  94. # [03:45] <Hixie> which relationship?
  95. # [03:45] <Hixie> i'm confused
  96. # [03:51] <shepazu> nm
  97. # [03:51] * shepazu goes back to editing D3E
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  101. # [04:26] <MikeSmith> abarth|afk: sweet -- thanks for the heads-up
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  119. # [05:31] <MikeSmith> heh
  120. # [05:31] <MikeSmith> http://hg.diveintohtml5.org/hgweb.cgi/rev/7a0f186d7e178b6e87117ebf007dc4fe6d07349a
  121. # [05:31] <MikeSmith> "more MIME types for fonts. please stop emailing me about this. browsers don't care and neither do I."
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  124. # [05:41] <aho> browsers also don't care about file extensions
  125. # [05:42] <aho> had to rename some of the fonts to .txt since bloody iis will pretend a file doesnt exist if it doesn't know its mime type
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  129. # [06:10] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-geolocation/2010Aug/0012.html
  130. # [06:10] <MikeSmith> "I expect more people would want to know the direction of gravity"
  131. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> dino
  132. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> I thought he was kidding at first
  133. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> I understand what he means in context
  134. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> but that sentence on its own is nice too
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  136. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> abarth|afk: I predict that your statement "Claiming something is obsolete or deprecated without giving authors better tools for solving their problems is waste of time." is going to end up being quoted quite a lot.
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  175. # [07:45] <micheil> Hixie: with websockets, what happens if key3 is > 8 bytes long?
  176. # [07:45] <Hixie> how can it be?
  177. # [07:46] <micheil> for instance, a malformed connection
  178. # [07:46] <micheil> eg, extra 0x0d 0x0a bytes
  179. # [07:46] <Hixie> those wouldn't be part of the key
  180. # [07:46] <micheil> so something like: '^n:ds[4U\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n'
  181. # [07:46] <micheil> was sent
  182. # [07:47] <Hixie> the 8 characters after the CR LF CR LF are key3
  183. # [07:47] <Hixie> everything after that is frames
  184. # [07:47] <micheil> as the last part of the message, should the server only "read" 8 bytes for key3?
  185. # [07:47] <Hixie> the server should do what the spec says, which is indeed to just read 8 bytes
  186. # [07:47] <Hixie> read the spec :-)
  187. # [07:47] <micheil> k
  188. # [07:47] <Hixie> (i'm assuming it hasn't changed since i last touched it -- i don't edit that spec anymore so i could be wrong)
  189. # [07:47] <micheil> I wasn't sure from reading the spec.
  190. # [07:47] <micheil> good point.
  191. # [07:47] <Hixie> really?
  192. # [07:47] <Hixie> i thought it was pretty clear
  193. # [07:48] <Hixie> doesn't it just say "read 8 bytes"
  194. # [07:48] <Hixie> hm i guess it doesn't actually say how you get them
  195. # [07:48] <Hixie> it just says "The eight random bytes sent after the first 0x0D 0x0A 0x0D 0x0A sequence in the client's handshake"
  196. # [07:48] <Hixie> but that's still pretty unambiguous
  197. # [07:49] <micheil> it just mentions that the key3 should be 8 random bytes, not what to do if it isn't.
  198. # [07:50] <micheil> (for what ever reason, should the 8 random bytes get separated from the headers, I've got stuff to stitch the two back together, is that actually to spec?)
  199. # [07:50] <micheil> or should we just assume that the client is invalid and reject the connection?
  200. # [07:50] <Hixie> it says that key3 is "The eight random bytes sent after the first 0x0D 0x0A 0x0D 0x0A sequence in the client's handshake"
  201. # [07:51] <Hixie> the only way there could not be a key3, therefore, is if the client disconnects
  202. # [07:51] <Hixie> in which case it doesn't much matter what you do
  203. # [07:52] <Hixie> if the client disconnects, then you just have to keep reading til you get an 0x0D 0x0A 0x0D 0x0A sequence, and then the next 8 bytes are key3
  204. # [07:52] <micheil> hmm..
  205. # [07:52] <Hixie> doesn't matter if there's a frame after that or not
  206. # [07:52] <Hixie> er
  207. # [07:52] <Hixie> s/if the client disconnects/if the client doesn't disconnect/
  208. # [07:52] <micheil> that's the slightly annoying thing about the websocket protocol; it assumes that you read() from the socket, not that you get data events
  209. # [07:54] <micheil> hmm.. I think I'll just reject the connection then, if key3 is missing / not correct length.
  210. # [07:54] * abarth|afk is now known as abarth
  211. # [07:55] <abarth> MikeSmith: hopefully in a good way...
  212. # [07:55] <Hixie> micheil: i still don't understand what you mean by "not correct length"
  213. # [07:56] <Hixie> micheil: if the server disconnects, though, then obviously you can also just reject the connection
  214. # [07:56] <micheil> Hixie: in my case, under node.js, we don't have a read(), we have to wait until we get a data event
  215. # [07:56] <Hixie> micheil: how is that different
  216. # [07:56] <micheil> if you connect to a websocket server using something like telnet, and pass correct headers, but send \r\n after the key3, then key3 ends up being 10 bytes instead of 8 bytes
  217. # [07:57] <Hixie> no
  218. # [07:57] <Hixie> it's just 8 bytes
  219. # [07:57] <micheil> we are left to guess what key3 is.
  220. # [07:57] <Hixie> the \r\n are the start of first frame
  221. # [07:57] <Hixie> after the key
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  224. # [07:58] <Hixie> imagine a client sending the handshake, \r\n\r\n, 8 bytes, and then 0xFF [length] [data] 0xFF [length] [data]
  225. # [07:58] <Hixie> all at once
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  227. # [07:58] <MikeSmith> abarth: yeah
  228. # [07:58] <Hixie> you should treat that as a handshake followed by two frames
  229. # [07:58] <Hixie> (at least unless the spec is changed)
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  231. # [07:59] <micheil> Hixie: fair point. just trying to work out how to represent that in code for node.js
  232. # [07:59] <Hixie> MikeSmith: thanks, i threw your mail onto my pile
  233. # [08:00] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i'll think about how to do it... maybe a data- attribute?
  234. # [08:00] <Hixie> MikeSmith: though then i guess i'll have to strip it for the w3.org version
  235. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> data- attribute sounds fine to me
  236. # [08:00] <Hixie> k
  237. # [08:00] <Hixie> anyway, afk for now
  238. # [08:01] <MikeSmith> and if you do go that route, please leave it in the w3.org version too.. I'll deal with teh consequences
  239. # [08:06] <boblet> argh, CSS3 animation plus transition on same element is a world of hurt
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  282. # [09:28] <hsivonen> interesting. Google search puts <link rel=prefetch> inside an <ol>
  283. # [09:29] <hsivonen> sure looks like a use case for <a rel=prefetch>
  284. # [09:29] <hsivonen> since the same link follows as an <a href>
  285. # [09:29] <Peter`> <a rel=prefetch> is allowed now afaik
  286. # [09:29] <hsivonen> Peter`: but is it supported by Gecko, etc.? (AFAIK, no.)
  287. # [09:30] <Peter`> The WebKit change should be trivial
  288. # [09:30] <Peter`> for <a> and <area> support anyway
  289. # [09:30] <Peter`> if the <link> version already works, outside of <head> as well, it makes sense for Google to be using it I guess
  290. # [09:31] <Peter`> even though it's not exactly clean
  291. # [09:31] <hsivonen> I'm not saying it doesn't make sense for them
  292. # [09:33] <Peter`> I didn't interpreted it as that
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  294. # [09:36] <hsivonen> <iframe name=wgjf style=display:none src="" onload="google.j.l()" onerror="google.j.e()">
  295. # [09:36] <hsivonen> that's also in Google's search results
  296. # [09:36] <hsivonen> relying an about:blank's onload can't be good...
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  298. # [09:39] <annevk5> why not?
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  300. # [09:39] <annevk5> it ought to work
  301. # [09:40] <abarth> it's pretty fast too
  302. # [09:40] <abarth> synchronous even
  303. # [09:40] <hsivonen> relying on synchronous stuff is suspicious when a page is breaking...
  304. # [09:41] <annevk5> the onerror is a bit dubious though
  305. # [09:41] <hsivonen> I wonder why this CSS is brought in as a script as opposed to straight CSS file: http://www.google.com.au/extern_chrome/46e7c64d3eb6ebfb.js
  306. # [09:41] <annevk5> that should never fire, though maybe they load more in it later?
  307. # [09:42] <annevk5> "The requested URL /extern_chrome/46e7c64d3eb6ebfb.js was not found on this server."
  308. # [09:42] <annevk5> what are you researching btw?
  309. # [09:42] <annevk5> fun parser things?
  310. # [09:44] <hsivonen> I'm researching why google.com.au serves single-pixel GIFs as data: URLs when UA substring "Firefox" exists *and* html5.enable=true but serves the right JPEGs as data: URLs when the UA substring "Firefox" exists and html5.enable=false
  311. # [09:45] <hsivonen> (aside: when even Google sniffs for "Firefox" rather than "Gecko/", the "Gecko is Gecko" thing should be recognized as a lost cause.)
  312. # [09:45] <Hixie> ooh, hsivonen has returned!
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  320. # [09:51] <hsivonen> it appears the purpose of this over-complex setup is to both put the images and the HTML in the same resource *and* to order them in such a way that the text loads before the image data is loaded
  321. # [09:51] * hsivonen wonders if this optimization is really necessary and really an optimization
  322. # [09:51] <hsivonen> SPDY could help here...
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  324. # [09:52] * hsivonen worders why Google puts single-letter comments all over the place
  325. # [09:53] <hsivonen> *wonders
  326. # [09:53] <dbaron> Hmmm... I can't quite yet mark Mozilla bug 915 invalid based on HTML5, since a tiny piece of the presentational attributes on col/colgroup crept in to HTML5.
  327. # [09:53] <Hixie> what part!
  328. # [09:53] <Hixie> tell me where so i can nuke it!
  329. # [09:53] <dbaron> Hixie, see my most recent message to public-html
  330. # [09:53] * Hixie gets out the gattling run
  331. # [09:53] <annevk5> gun?
  332. # [09:53] <dbaron> Hixie, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Aug/0265.html
  333. # [09:54] <Hixie> gatling gun even
  334. # [09:54] <Hixie> who knew that only had one t
  335. # [09:54] <hsivonen> and there's no useless use of <em> and <cite> where they could save a few bytes by using <b>
  336. # [09:55] <annevk5> s/no//?
  337. # [09:55] <hsivonen> annevk5: oops. yes
  338. # [09:55] <hsivonen> or s/no/now/, rather
  339. # [09:56] <Hixie> dbaron: fixed
  340. # [09:56] <annevk5> hsivonen, fun stuff (in a way)
  341. # [09:58] <annevk5> Hixie, you changed thead into head
  342. # [09:58] <annevk5> Hixie, for the first set of rules
  343. # [09:58] <Hixie> oops
  344. # [09:59] <hsivonen> and yes, they do end up loading something else into the iframe
  345. # [10:00] <hsivonen> it would be nice if Google had a non-minified debug mode...
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  349. # [10:09] <TabAtkins_> hsivonen: There's been a feature request for that for a while now.
  350. # [10:13] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  351. # [10:14] <hsivonen> Is there someone at Google who I could CC in the Mozilla bug to find out what exactly they are trying to do?
  352. # [10:14] <Hixie> you can mail me (ianh@google.com) if you want me to stick someone on the bug
  353. # [10:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks
  354. # [10:15] <Hixie> please mention in the e-mail what general area we're talking about
  355. # [10:15] <Hixie> since, you know, it's a big company and all
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  359. # [10:19] <othermaciej> good evening
  360. # [10:19] <abarth> othermaciej: evening
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  366. # [10:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: I sent email with my @mozilla.com address in the From field
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  368. # [10:36] <Hixie> thanks
  369. # [10:37] <Hixie> nn
  370. # [10:39] <annevk5> g'n
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  373. # [10:44] <Ms2ger> Hixie, "... then always assume the normative part is wrong." Really?
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  375. # [10:49] <roc> TabAtkins: do you remember off the top of your head what was the result of that interminable www-style thread about what a 10px blur means in box-shadow?
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  377. # [10:50] <ruby_on_tails> hello
  378. # [10:50] <ruby_on_tails> why don't I see a shadow here http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/canvas/?c.clearRect(0%2C%200%2C%20640%2C%20480)%3B%0Ac.save()%3B%0Ac.fillStyle%20%3D%20c.createPattern(img3%2C%20%27repeat%27)%3B%0Ac.strokeStyle%20%3D%20%27black%27%3B%0Ac.lineWidth%20%3D%208%3B%0Ac.lineCap%20%3D%20%27round%27%3B%0Ac.beginPath()%3B%0Ac.moveTo(300%2C%20200)%3B%0Ac.arc(300%2C%20200%2C%20100%2C%20-Math.PI%2F4%2C%20Math.PI%2F4%2C%20true)%3B%0Ac.closePath()%3B%0Ac.fill()
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  381. # [10:52] <ruby_on_tails> anyone alive :-/
  382. # [10:53] <espadrine> perhaps the intent was to c.stroke() ?
  383. # [10:53] <espadrine> since you set c.strokeStyle...
  384. # [10:53] <ruby_on_tails> so I can't have a shadow with a stroke ?
  385. # [10:54] <ruby_on_tails> I removed stroke, still no shadow :(
  386. # [10:55] <TabAtkins_> roc: Yeah.
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  388. # [10:55] <TabAtkins_> roc: The blur should approximate a gaussian with a stdev of half the specified length.
  389. # [10:56] <TabAtkins_> roc: So, for that case, blur with a stdev of 5px.
  390. # [10:56] <roc> hmmmm ok
  391. # [10:56] <TabAtkins_> That gives you 97% transparency or so at the specified length.
  392. # [10:57] <micheil> anyone know if any browsers actually support websockets over TLS?
  393. # [10:57] <micheil> (using wss:// instead of ws://)
  394. # [10:58] <ruby_on_tails> anyone can tell why I can't see a shadow ?
  395. # [10:58] <espadrine> ruby_on_tails: you get a shadow with c.shadowOffsetX and c.shadowColor set
  396. # [10:59] <espadrine> ruby_on_tails: read the spec: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#the-canvas-element
  397. # [10:59] <ruby_on_tails> I am on that page
  398. # [11:00] <ruby_on_tails> but I applied those on the link I pasted yet I don't see the shadow
  399. # [11:00] <ruby_on_tails> is it visible on your screen ?
  400. # [11:00] <othermaciej> TabAtkins_: I am hella curious about your recent twitter posts about "sunk costs" and all that
  401. # [11:00] <othermaciej> TabAtkins_: was there some kind of fight over something?
  402. # [11:00] <TabAtkins_> othermaciej: Minor.
  403. # [11:01] * othermaciej enjoys watching drama that he doesn't have to be involved in
  404. # [11:01] <espadrine> ruby_on_tails: add the lines c.shadowOffsetX = 5 and c.shadowColor = 'blue'
  405. # [11:01] * TabAtkins_ deleted a few tweets in that vein.
  406. # [11:01] <othermaciej> TabAtkins_: was it about the test suite or something?
  407. # [11:01] <TabAtkins_> Yeah.
  408. # [11:01] <othermaciej> are you at liberty to state what the actual point of controversy was?
  409. # [11:02] <othermaciej> I was trying to guess from the twitter record (from you and others) and I couldn't even guess wtf people were talking about
  410. # [11:02] <ruby_on_tails> espadrine: http://tinyurl.com/3yqwuaw
  411. # [11:03] <TabAtkins_> I dunno. I'll take it private just in case.
  412. # [11:04] <espadrine> ruby_on_tails: if you don't have a shadow here, use a browser that implements canvas shadows
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  414. # [11:04] <ruby_on_tails> I have been drawing on canvas since 2 days using this browser, shadows can be missing ?
  415. # [11:04] <ruby_on_tails> I am on FF 3.0.8
  416. # [11:05] <ruby_on_tails> oh well I see the shadow on Shiretoko
  417. # [11:05] <ruby_on_tails> damn
  418. # [11:05] <roc> FF 3.0.8 is somewhat ... old
  419. # [11:05] <espadrine> ruby_on_tails: yes, they can. I don't know if FF 3 has it
  420. # [11:06] <ruby_on_tails> hmm
  421. # [11:08] <espadrine> roc: tell that to my website designer, she is still using FF 2.0
  422. # [11:08] <TabAtkins_> lolwut
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  425. # [11:12] <ruby_on_tails> oh well, now the shadow is getting applied to all stuff, why is that happening ?
  426. # [11:13] <ruby_on_tails> is shadow applied to everything as a rule ?
  427. # [11:13] <TabAtkins_> "All drawing operations are affected by the four global shadow attributes."
  428. # [11:14] <hsivonen> ruby_on_tails: it's a really bad idea to continue to use a Web browser that's no longer getting security patches
  429. # [11:14] <ruby_on_tails> TabAtkins_: missed that, sorry
  430. # [11:14] <ruby_on_tails> set it to transparent
  431. # [11:14] <hsivonen> oops, I meant Firefox 2.0 but that was mentioned by espadrine instead
  432. # [11:14] <ruby_on_tails> hsivonen: am too lazy :P my lappy is in a bad condition latesty wise
  433. # [11:15] <hsivonen> well, actually, Firefox 3.0 has been EOLed, too
  434. # [11:16] <ruby_on_tails> EOLed means ?
  435. # [11:16] <hsivonen> end-of-life'ed
  436. # [11:17] <hsivonen> no longer maintained
  437. # [11:17] <ruby_on_tails> ok
  438. # [11:18] <ruby_on_tails> I actually don't use the latest FF because it doesn't have anti-aliased text
  439. # [11:19] <hsivonen> ruby_on_tails: huh? which platform?
  440. # [11:20] <ruby_on_tails> ubuntu
  441. # [11:20] <ruby_on_tails> my FF3.0.8 has it
  442. # [11:20] <hsivonen> that's really odd.
  443. # [11:21] <hsivonen> Ever since at least dapper, every version of Firefox I've seen on Ubuntu has respected the Gnome anti-aliasing prefs
  444. # [11:21] <hsivonen> Works for me on Lucid
  445. # [11:21] <ruby_on_tails> I am on 9.04
  446. # [11:22] <ruby_on_tails> the only way to make hover effects like tooltips are possible with divs on above the canvas?
  447. # [11:23] <hsivonen> ruby_on_tails: anti-aliased text worked for me on 9.04
  448. # [11:23] <ruby_on_tails> my laptop is broken maybe lol
  449. # [11:23] <ruby_on_tails> god knows
  450. # [11:23] <hsivonen> ruby_on_tails: how did you obtain Firefox?
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  452. # [11:23] <ruby_on_tails> I need a complete reformat
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  454. # [11:23] <ruby_on_tails> I don't remember
  455. # [11:23] <ruby_on_tails> I have FF 3.0.8 and Shiretoko(from synaptec)
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  457. # [11:26] <hsivonen> hmm. a-a text in Shiretoko from backports worked for me, too
  458. # [11:26] <hsivonen> I wonder if there's a pref that allows you to override the Gnome AA prefs in Gecko...
  459. # [11:29] <ruby_on_tails> hmm
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  501. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> I thought the spec explicitly disallowed the xml declaration in text/html documents
  502. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> but I can't find any statement of that constraint in the spec
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  506. # [12:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it parses as a bogus comment and bogus comments are parse errors
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  508. # [12:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that might not count as "explicit", though
  509. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ok
  510. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> yeah
  511. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> It seems like that it needs to be explicitly defined as a document-conformance error as well
  512. # [12:43] <hsivonen> all parse errors are
  513. # [12:44] <hsivonen> and I believe there's nothing in the "writing" section permitting it
  514. # [12:44] <hsivonen> what's not permitted is prohibited
  515. # [12:44] <hsivonen> (unlike in RSS...)
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  517. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> ok
  518. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> I still think it would be better to explicitly disallow it
  519. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> for the sake of clarity
  520. # [12:46] <hsivonen> it probably makes sense to have a note that calls it out
  521. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  527. # [13:10] <hsivonen> I wonder how many Objection Polls I missed while I was on vacation... I've noticed 2 so far.
  528. # [13:18] <Lachy> hsivonen, what was the last poll you did see before you went on vacation?
  529. # [13:20] <hsivonen> Lachy: versioning and ascii-ref
  530. # [13:24] <jgraham> <math><mi><object><span></span></object></mi><mi>
  531. # [13:24] <jgraham> The second <mi> ends up in the HTML namespace
  532. # [13:24] <jgraham> spec bug?
  533. # [13:24] <jgraham> Or bug in my head?
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  535. # [13:27] <hsivonen> I'm positively surprised by http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Aug/0116.html
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  537. # [13:36] <tantek> hsivonen - whoa - I missed that too, similarly positively/pleasantly surprised.
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  539. # [13:42] <Lachy> what have we had since those two polls? Have I missed some too?
  540. # [13:44] <hsivonen> Lachy: aria section title + characterization and removing srcdoc
  541. # [13:44] <hsivonen> (and indeed, there haven't been more)
  542. # [13:48] <wirepair> silly question, how would one remove a nameless cookie?
  543. # [13:48] <wirepair> like document.cookie = '=asdf';
  544. # [13:50] <wirepair> er. how would one remove the nameless cookie from javascript ;)
  545. # [13:54] <wirepair> nevermind got it
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  551. # [14:03] <david_carlisle> jgraham: "The second <mi> ends up in the HTML namespace," watching with interest... sort of related to bug 9887
  552. # [14:05] <david_carlisle> also who registered the irc name "davidc" ? nickserv told me to rename myself, what you need is namespaces to avoid such clashes.
  553. # [14:06] <annevk5> namespaces on IRC? haha
  554. # [14:08] <Ms2ger> /nick http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML/davidc?
  555. # [14:09] <Lachy> obviously, we need a prefix mechanism to make that more usable
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  557. # [14:09] <Peter`> david_carlisle: he registered almost 10 years ago
  558. # [14:10] <jgraham> david_carlisle: The problem is, I think that when you have a scoping element inside a <mn> then an end tag causes you to switch back to the secondary insertion mode i.e. out of the mode in which you insert things in a non-HTML namespace
  559. # [14:10] <jgraham> or <mi>
  560. # [14:10] <jgraham> even
  561. # [14:10] <jgraham> it looks like a simple bug in the spec
  562. # [14:11] <jgraham> hsivonen: Any opinion?
  563. # [14:11] <hsivonen> jgraham: if the second <mi> is not in the MathML namespace, I'd consider it a bug somewher
  564. # [14:11] <hsivonen> e
  565. # [14:11] <jgraham> (I say "simple bug" but I'm not quite sure what the right fix is of if it is simple)
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  567. # [14:12] <jgraham> (possibly it shouldn't worry about scoping elements when deciding to switch or not)
  568. # [14:13] <jgraham> (maybe that plays badly with <foreignContent> though)
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  570. # [14:14] <hsivonen> foreignObject definitely needs to be scoping
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  572. # [14:15] <hsivonen> (and everyone keeps calling it foreignContent)
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  574. # [14:15] <hsivonen> maybe I misunderstood your remark about scopingness here
  575. # [14:16] <jgraham> Argh
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  577. # [14:16] <jgraham> I always do that :)
  578. # [14:20] <jgraham> hsivonen: The point is that in the "Any other end tag" part of In Foreign Content, you switch to the SIM if there is no non-HTML element in scope. But there can be a non-HTML element on the stack of open elements even if it is not in scope
  579. # [14:20] <jgraham> In which case you switch too early
  580. # [14:20] <hsivonen> jgraham: oh
  581. # [14:21] <jgraham> I think
  582. # [14:21] <hsivonen> this context-dependent stuff is harder than it first seemed
  583. # [14:21] <jgraham> At least that is consistent with what gecko and html5lib do
  584. # [14:21] <hsivonen> still beats making the author use xmlns
  585. # [14:21] <jgraham> Yeah, but it is disappointingly complex
  586. # [14:22] <hsivonen> is it just me or isn't it rather out of orderish to start discussing longdesc use cases right *after* the poll on the topic?
  587. # [14:24] <jgraham> AFAICT the main conclusion from that is that there exists a contingent who believe that Process is important and must be strictly followed whilst they percieve it is helping their cause, but who ignore it once a decision goes against them
  588. # [14:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: shocking
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  605. # [15:51] <cyberix_> Is browser support for XHR2 being tested/tacked somewhere?
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  610. # [15:52] <annevk5> not really
  611. # [15:53] <annevk5> I plan to write XHR2 tests at some point, but haven't done it so far
  612. # [15:53] <cyberix_> I found out that you could use the file writer API to generate blobs from raw data
  613. # [15:53] <annevk5> CSSOM has somewhat higher priority and XHR1 tests are still not properly published (but they are at least written)
  614. # [15:54] <cyberix_> so I guess it should then be possible to post raw data with XHR2
  615. # [15:54] <annevk5> cyberix_, well, that feature hasn't even made it into the draft yet
  616. # [15:54] <annevk5> cyberix_, oh, posting Blob objects is in there, yes
  617. # [15:55] <annevk5> responseBlob not yet, but I think we pretty much agreed on how it ought to work
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  619. # [15:55] <cyberix_> Well, that we already have working
  620. # [15:57] <cyberix_> we just read it as a string, and do (charcode & 0xff)
  621. # [15:57] <annevk5> cyberix_, cross-origin support is in WebKit/Gecko
  622. # [15:57] <cyberix_> I have tried it out
  623. # [15:57] <annevk5> cyberix_, I think posting Blob might be too
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  625. # [15:58] <annevk5> there's too much going on to really keep track, even being the editor
  626. # [15:58] <cyberix_> not blaming you
  627. # [15:59] <annevk5> no worries, I don't feel blamed :)
  628. # [15:59] <cyberix_> just scared of writing this without seeing a working example first :-)
  629. # [16:04] <boblet> any chrome ppl around? I’ve found a fun CSS3 transform+animation issue; works when in head, doesn’t when linked
  630. # [16:04] <annevk5> are you sure the linked style sheet applies?
  631. # [16:05] <boblet> annevk5: well, the anim fires in both situations, and I can see styles applied in inspector, but animated object ends up in different place when linked
  632. # [16:06] <boblet> not sure if I’m just doing something wrong or not
  633. # [16:06] <boblet> also only happens in new tab, not on reload
  634. # [16:07] <cyberix_> annevk5: Should there not be one "HTML5: the Blob" document that would explain the datatype?
  635. # [16:08] <cyberix_> at the moment it is defined in, what, ten places?
  636. # [16:08] <boblet> annevk5: will set up example to show you…
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  641. # [16:10] <annevk5> cyberix_, I'm not very happy with the whole Blob/File mess to be honest
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  644. # [16:12] <annevk5> cyberix_, but I don't want to make it my problem
  645. # [16:15] <cyberix_> I see
  646. # [16:16] <boblet> annevk5: this is as intended (animation and transition CSS in head, other CSS in linked stylesheet): http://east.webdirections.org/wde/2010/
  647. # [16:16] <boblet> annevk5: this is the same code moved from head to stylesheet: http://east.webdirections.org/wde/2010/test.html
  648. # [16:17] <boblet> in Chrome the animated arrows bg-img jumps after animating when in linked styles, but not in Safari
  649. # [16:18] <boblet> this new-fangled CSS3 stuff is confounding me
  650. # [16:22] <cheeser> it's awesome :)
  651. # [16:23] <Rik`> boblet: why are you putting some transitions if you use animations ?
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  654. # [16:24] <boblet> Rik`: better browser support for transitions, but the transition on page load can only be done via an animation or JS
  655. # [16:25] <hsivonen> annevk5: is HTML parsing in responseXML still a possibility for XHR2?
  656. # [16:25] <boblet> cheeser: was that re: my links? heh, thanks :) apart from the broken bit (and occasional flashing after transition in Safari, mostly sorted)
  657. # [16:26] <annevk5> hsivonen, it's still part of XHR2
  658. # [16:26] <annevk5> hsivonen, I tried getting it in XHR1 but that was controversial
  659. # [16:27] <hsivonen> annevk5: OK
  660. # [16:29] * jgraham wishes responseXML didn't exist
  661. # [16:30] <jgraham> Also I wish the live DOM viewer showed namespaces
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  663. # [16:30] <jgraham> and a pony
  664. # [16:30] <jgraham> with a single horn from its forehead
  665. # [16:30] <Rik`> boblet: you're only using -webkit-transition so, browser support is quite the same as animations
  666. # [16:30] <annevk5> responseXML is nice
  667. # [16:31] <jgraham> annevk5: Why? being able to parse XML from a string is much more flexible
  668. # [16:31] <jgraham> and it is hardly any more code
  669. # [16:31] <boblet> Rik`: once it actually works… :p
  670. # [16:31] <jgraham> or any slower
  671. # [16:33] <annevk5> yeah, and strings are not needed either if we have binary
  672. # [16:34] <annevk5> but okay...
  673. # [16:35] <jgraham> Not really a reasonable argument
  674. # [16:35] <jgraham> I mean we don't have responseJSON or responseSexp or whatever
  675. # [16:35] <annevk5> Sexp?
  676. # [16:36] <jgraham> s-expression
  677. # [16:36] <annevk5> we will get responseBlob
  678. # [16:36] <annevk5> responseJSON has been proposed at some point
  679. # [16:36] <jgraham> It just seems like API bloat to me
  680. # [16:36] <espadrine> Isn't there some JSONRequest adoption in browsers?
  681. # [16:36] <jgraham> making priviledged accessors for some formats
  682. # [16:37] <espadrine> I know XHR doesn't like that
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  684. # [16:37] <annevk5> XHR doesn't like it?
  685. # [16:37] <espadrine> meaning the spec says it doesn't want JSONRequest
  686. # [16:38] <annevk5> that's CORS
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  688. # [16:38] <espadrine> yep
  689. # [16:38] <annevk5> but yeah, it's not going into browsers
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  708. # [17:08] <boblet> nn
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  711. # [17:17] <Fyrd> Does anyone here know if being able to load a data URI as a standalone file in a browser window is part of a standard?
  712. # [17:19] <Fyrd> Currently all browsers but IE support this...I'd like IE9 to support it too, but they probably won't if there isn't a spec that says they should.
  713. # [17:19] <cyberix_> BlobBuilder seems to only work for text. Is there a way of turning a data url into a blob?
  714. # [17:20] <Peter`> Fyrd: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-August/028011.html
  715. # [17:20] <Peter`> Currently data: URLs actually don't even validate
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  718. # [17:22] <Fyrd> Ah, thanks Peter` . So this information is currently lacking, I see...
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  720. # [17:25] <Fyrd> Too bad no one's responded to that email yet.
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  722. # [17:27] <TabAtkins_> Fyrd: IE doesn't allow it as a "security issue". Not sure of the details.
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  725. # [17:28] <annevk5> oh, hybi realizes Shelby Moore is a troll
  726. # [17:29] <annevk5> that's about time
  727. # [17:29] <annevk5> I've ignored most emails from the past week or so
  728. # [17:30] <Fyrd> TabAtkins_: Yeah, that's what I suspected, though they never did explain the reason in the bug I submitted...
  729. # [17:30] <Rik`> is there a definitive answer in one spec about what "'onload' in window" should return ?
  730. # [17:30] <annevk5> Peter`, data: URLs should validate...
  731. # [17:30] <annevk5> Peter`, why do you keep insisting they don't?
  732. # [17:30] <Ms2ger> Rik`, I expect WebIDL would say yes
  733. # [17:31] <Rik`> Ms2ger: so it is a bug in Firefox if it doesn't ?
  734. # [17:31] <Ms2ger> It doesn't? Could you file a bug?
  735. # [17:32] <Ms2ger> (And cc me)
  736. # [17:32] <Rik`> Ms2ger: I'm just doing some background research first
  737. # [17:32] <Rik`> 'onhashchange' in window returns true
  738. # [17:32] <annevk5> Opera also says false
  739. # [17:32] <Rik`> but 'onpopstate' in window returns false
  740. # [17:32] <Rik`> it's very inconsistent
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  743. # [17:45] <Rik`> ok, IDL is too strange for me to absorb right now, so i'll file a bug :)
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  783. # [18:49] <Rik`> Ms2ger: created https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=590198
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  786. # [18:51] * GPHemsley wonders why none of tantek's time/date proposals have gotten any response
  787. # [18:51] <tantek> GPHemsley - quite a bit of follow-up on the wiki
  788. # [18:51] <GPHemsley> positive? because so far I like all of your ideas :)
  789. # [18:51] <tantek> (which is where my emails requested people follow-up, rather than getting lost in email arhives :) )
  790. # [18:51] <GPHemsley> (I'm currently catching up on my WHATWG e-mail)
  791. # [18:51] <tantek> mostly positive yes
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  795. # [18:53] <GPHemsley> oh, hmm... actually, I'm not sure I agree with your AM/PM proposal
  796. # [18:54] <tantek> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time_element
  797. # [18:54] <tantek> what are your concerns about am/pm?
  798. # [18:54] <tantek> we've found it quite useful in microformats
  799. # [18:55] <tantek> (already have multiple interoperable implementations)
  800. # [18:55] <tantek> (and it helps reduce duplicate data)
  801. # [18:55] <tantek> parsing it is trivial
  802. # [18:55] <tantek> and it really helps content stay slimmer
  803. # [18:55] <tantek> (markup in particular)
  804. # [18:56] <GPHemsley> I just don't see the DRY value
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  806. # [18:57] <Cesarino> Hi all, HTML4 and so on works in a html5 page?
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  808. # [18:58] <GPHemsley> tantek: Well, alright, I concede that the proposal addresses my immediate concerns... but I personally don't like it, still
  809. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> Rik`, thanks
  810. # [18:59] <tantek_> what don't you like about it?
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  813. # [19:00] <GPHemsley> tantek_: It just doesn't feel right. IDK, I have no evidence to back up my opinion :P
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  822. # [19:11] * AryehGregor gives kudos to mpilgrim on http://wearehugh.com/public/2010/08/html5-video-accessibility/ and http://wearehugh.com/public/2010/08/html5-web-workers/, both awesome
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  836. # [19:38] <Ms2ger> Rik`, fwiw, we've got a test for `"onhashchange" in window`
  837. # [19:44] <Hixie> Ms2ger: ah crap, i means the non-normative part
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  839. # [19:45] <Ms2ger> Hixie, thought so
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  868. # [21:05] <annevk5> latest Shelby Moore: "I knew that, I just wanted you to admit it. \I have known for a while what sort of systems you are building."
  869. # [21:07] <abarth|adoptPtr> i didn't realize he's the axiomatic proof guy
  870. # [21:08] <annevk5> I hope my links will make people realize they are wasting their time and have the chairs put a ban on him
  871. # [21:08] <annevk5> but maybe I'm optimistic
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  874. # [21:16] <annevk5> oh, "Last email to the list."
  875. # [21:17] <annevk5> curious to see how long that lasts
  876. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> So is this Shelby or Shelly?
  877. # [21:20] <Hixie> they are distinct people
  878. # [21:25] <gavin> what list is this?
  879. # [21:25] <annevk5> hybi
  880. # [21:25] <annevk5> it's the same Shelby Moore from www-style 2002-2005 (fwiw)
  881. # [21:27] <Hixie> more like 2002,2005 iirc :-)
  882. # [21:29] <ojan> annevk5: are there any cases where returning "auto" from getComputedStyle is correct?
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  884. # [21:30] <annevk5> yeah
  885. # [21:30] * dbaron looks around for scrollback
  886. # [21:30] <annevk5> ojan, e.g. for 'top'
  887. # [21:30] <annevk5> iirc
  888. # [21:31] <ojan> annevk5: i'm looking at https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43559. there's a case where WebKit returns 0px and Gecko returns auto
  889. # [21:31] <dbaron> also for other things that are display:none or inside something display:none, I think
  890. # [21:31] <annevk5> ojan, the reason for that is because I aligned with WebKit; Gecko returns the used value there
  891. # [21:32] <annevk5> ojan, oh, that's the reverse
  892. # [21:32] * annevk5 looks
  893. # [21:32] <ojan> it's getting the computed width/height on an uncached image
  894. # [21:32] <annevk5> dbaron, yeah, or where the property is in the special list and does not apply to the element
  895. # [21:32] <ojan> shift+reload http://tinyurl.com/24qmgck to see the difference
  896. # [21:33] <annevk5> ojan, I guess that is because in Gecko the image is treated as inline element so 'width' does not apply and therefore returns the computed value rather than the used value
  897. # [21:34] <ojan> oh, interesting.
  898. # [21:34] <annevk5> ojan, pretty sucky that pages can depend on how browsers generate boxes for replaced elements while loading :/
  899. # [21:35] <ojan> this sounds like a scary thing to change (for webkit or gecko) :(
  900. # [21:35] <annevk5> sounds like an annoying thing to define too
  901. # [21:35] <annevk5> i guess HTML5 should define that
  902. # [21:36] * annevk5 checks the rendering chapter
  903. # [21:38] <annevk5> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/rendering.html#images-0 has the WebKit behavior
  904. # [21:38] <ojan> annevk5: i'm missing something. according to http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/#specified0, the computed value should never be "auto" no?
  905. # [21:39] <ojan> oh, nm
  906. # [21:39] <ojan> i misread
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  908. # [21:39] <annevk5> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#the-height-property "the percentage or 'auto' (see prose under <percentage>) or the absolute length; 'auto' if the property does not apply"
  909. # [21:40] <annevk5> (and it does not apply with the Gecko <img> model; assuming I guessed all this correctly)
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  911. # [21:42] <crash\> there is a Bug for that
  912. # [21:42] <crash\> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=321919
  913. # [21:42] <crash\> pretty much the same problem
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  915. # [21:43] <annevk5> crash\, with the same conclusions
  916. # [21:43] <annevk5> :)
  917. # [21:44] <crash\> what does getPropertyValue("width") for <input type=hidden> return?
  918. # [21:44] <crash\> should be auto too, right?
  919. # [21:45] <annevk5> yes
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  922. # [21:47] <crash\> maybe I should create a bug and test case for that to clarify that
  923. # [21:47] <Hixie> Ms2ger: any idea what you meant on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9642 ?
  924. # [21:48] <annevk5> make a test suite for getComputedStyle, that'd be neat :)
  925. # [21:50] <crash\> I can't see where the specs say. what behaviour is right
  926. # [21:51] <annevk5> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#dom-window-getcomputedstyle defines it
  927. # [21:51] <annevk5> if anything is unclear please email www-style
  928. # [21:51] <Ms2ger> Hixie, that pre eats the first linefeed, if that is relevant to the section I filed it on
  929. # [21:51] <annevk5> Ms2ger, not if you are in PLAINTEXT mode
  930. # [21:51] <annevk5> (I think)
  931. # [21:52] <Hixie> i really didn't understand the bug at all
  932. # [21:53] * Ms2ger checks
  933. # [21:54] <annevk5> oh actually, it just emits it as character token
  934. # [21:54] <annevk5> Hixie, if you're plain text file starts with a newline the parser would eat it
  935. # [21:54] <annevk5> s/you're/your/ geez
  936. # [21:54] <Hixie> good to know
  937. # [21:55] <Hixie> i'll fix it, no need to file a bug
  938. # [21:55] <Hixie> (since i'm between bugs right now)
  939. # [21:55] <crash\> "If the property applies to the element or pseudo-element and the resolved value of the 'display' property is not none, the resolved value is the used value." for width/height
  940. # [21:55] <annevk5> (that is the bug from Ms2ger :) )
  941. # [21:55] <crash\> but a not loaded image is not of type display:none;
  942. # [21:56] <annevk5> crash\, no, it's of type inline in Gecko
  943. # [21:56] <Hixie> annevk5: no it wouldn't
  944. # [21:56] <crash\> yes, so it should be the computed value
  945. # [21:56] <crash\> so I guess 0px would be right
  946. # [21:56] <annevk5> no, auto
  947. # [21:56] <annevk5> we just discussed this in this channel
  948. # [21:56] <Hixie> however, document.open('text/plain');document.write('\n'); would, so i'll fix that instead
  949. # [21:57] <annevk5> I even quoted http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#the-height-property
  950. # [21:57] <crash\> ok, since it's inline
  951. # [21:57] <annevk5> Hixie, ah yeah, that is the bug
  952. # [21:57] <Ms2ger> Hixie, only because I filed the text/plain one earlier :)
  953. # [21:57] <annevk5> Hixie, didn't mean text/plain loading
  954. # [21:57] <Hixie> Ms2ger: :-D
  955. # [21:58] <crash\> but when it was replaced it can have a width/height
  956. # [21:58] <crash\> wired
  957. # [22:00] <annevk5> I never said this was easy ;p
  958. # [22:00] <Hixie> man some of these bugs are remarkably terse
  959. # [22:00] * Ms2ger pleads guilty
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  961. # [22:01] <Hixie> not all yours!
  962. # [22:02] <crash\> ist still dont think "auto" is right ;)
  963. # [22:02] <crash\> why it can't be 0px and when it can't be replaced and then alt="" is used be "auto"?
  964. # [22:03] <Ms2ger> Be happy I didn't file >300 bugs ;)
  965. # [22:03] <annevk5> hmm, one email and now I get private spam from Shelby Moore
  966. # [22:03] <annevk5> crash\, sure, that is what HTML5 defines right now
  967. # [22:03] <Hixie> i love bugs like http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9633
  968. # [22:03] <annevk5> crash\, but apparently that breaks sites
  969. # [22:03] <Hixie> i have no idea WHAT should read that way...
  970. # [22:03] <annevk5> crash\, again see above for the WebKit bug report
  971. # [22:04] <Ms2ger> Hixie, add more ids
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  973. # [22:05] <Ms2ger> When trying to use types other than image/png, authors can check if the image was really returned in the requested format by checking to see if the returned string starts with one the exact strings
  974. # [22:05] <crash\> ok, that confident me
  975. # [22:06] <Hixie> Ms2ger: yeah, i worked it out already, don't worry :-)
  976. # [22:06] <annevk5> anyways, nn
  977. # [22:07] <Ms2ger> Hixie, if you can work out HTML parsing, terse bug reports shouldn't be much of a challenge
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  981. # [22:15] <Hixie> how about http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9664
  982. # [22:15] <Hixie> does that make any sense to anyone?
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  991. # [22:37] <jcranmer> Hixie: possible interpretations
  992. # [22:37] <jcranmer> 1. The bug reporter wants more identification of the meanings of a, b, etc.
  993. # [22:37] <jcranmer> 2. The bug reporter wants an explanation of transformation matrices
  994. # [22:39] <jcranmer> I'm not quite sure what he intends in the last clause of the disjunction
  995. # [22:39] <jcranmer> but the most clue I can get out of it is that the user lacks knowledge of transformations
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  1007. # [23:07] <Hixie> jcranmer: yeah that's as much as i could get out of it
  1008. # [23:08] <jcranmer> an informative reference to 2D transformations may be helpful
  1009. # [23:09] <Hixie> should i link to http://lmgtfy.com/?q=2d+transformations ?
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  1011. # [23:10] <jcranmer> too unstable a site
  1012. # [23:10] <jcranmer> I said "may be"
  1013. # [23:12] <Hixie> :-)
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  1018. # [23:35] <sicking> Hixie: you are aware that the spec currently does mandate filtering <option>s with empty values only in <datalist> and not in <select>, right?
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  1020. # [23:37] <sicking> sorry, i don't think we explicitly mentioned this in the original bug filing
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  1023. # [23:42] <Hixie> sicking: sure but <select> still needs live updating
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  1027. # [23:45] <Hixie> sicking: i don't see why it would be harder to decide not to show an option than it would be to show it with different text
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  1030. # Session Close: Wed Aug 25 00:00:00 2010

The end :)