/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-08-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 26 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <jlebar> Thanks!
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  6. # [00:00] <Hixie> jlebar: heh, you used the html5 "library" :-)
  7. # [00:01] <AryehGregor> dbaron posted substantive feedback to public-html. Will you catch that, Hixie, or do we need to tell people not to use public-html for that?
  8. # [00:01] <jlebar> lol, I guess so!
  9. # [00:01] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i'll see it
  10. # [00:01] <AryehGregor> k.
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  63. # [02:59] <mihaip> Hixie: what happens to the pending state object if I call replaceState or pushState before onload fires?
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  73. # [03:50] <Hixie> mihaip: is the spec ambiguous?
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  75. # [03:52] <mihaip> Hixie: the spec doesn't say anything about the interaction of replaceState with the pending state object
  76. # [03:52] <Hixie> seems like it would have no effect then
  77. # [03:52] <mihaip> Hixie: so a strict reading would be that pending state object is unaffected by replaceState
  78. # [03:52] <Hixie> a strict reading is the only valid reading :-)
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  80. # [03:53] <mihaip> Hixie: so if you call replaceState("foo") before onload, you would still get a popstate event with null state right after onload
  81. # [03:53] <Hixie> per the spec, seems that way
  82. # [03:53] <mihaip> Hixie: but then if you call pushState("bar") and then history.back() you would get a popstate event with with "foo"?
  83. # [03:54] <Hixie> i don't understand the order of operations in your scenario
  84. # [03:54] <Hixie> replaceState('foo'), then onload, then popstate, then pushState('bar') then history.back()?
  85. # [03:54] <mihaip> yes
  86. # [03:56] <Hixie> i guess so
  87. # [03:56] <Hixie> i'd have to look at the spec to tell you for sure
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  122. # [06:04] <roc> "Extending the border-collapse property to all elements" NOOOOO RUN RUN RUN DIE
  123. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> heh
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  144. # [07:13] <Hixie> can someone with IE (ideally 9 but any version will do) tell me if <body bgcolor=" red"> is a black page or a red page?
  145. # [07:14] <Hixie> (or a lime green page)
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  155. # [07:53] <paul_irish> Hixie: ie6, ie8, ie9pp4: lime green.
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  157. # [07:54] <Hixie> paul_irish: thanks
  158. # [07:54] <paul_irish> Hixie: how'd you know it'd be lime?
  159. # [07:55] <Hixie> it's the result of running the crazy color algorithm on "xxed"
  160. # [07:55] <Hixie> does it at least go red for bgcolor=red?
  161. # [07:55] <Hixie> no need to test more than one
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  163. # [07:56] <paul_irish> yes.
  164. # [07:56] <paul_irish> red
  165. # [07:57] <Hixie> thanks
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  170. # [08:35] <annevk5> Firefox sniffs the file extension for video served over HTTP?
  171. # [08:35] <annevk5> oh god
  172. # [08:36] <kinetik> no it doesn't.
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  174. # [08:38] <annevk2> I guess Chris was confused then
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  179. # [08:41] <annevk> I was actually
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  184. # [08:49] <annevk> Hopefully window.matchMedia() is now done
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  193. # [09:08] <annevk> does anyone know if all the specs on File / Blob et all are up to date?
  194. # [09:08] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/
  195. # [09:11] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/file-system/file-writer.html seems more up to date
  196. # [09:12] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/file-system/file-dir-sys.html likewise
  197. # [09:12] <annevk> also confusing some of this is developed at DAP and some at WebApps
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  204. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> protip: upgrading your bind9 software is a great way to fill up your logs with tons of useless messages
  205. # [09:38] <hsivonen> This makes me sad: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/67 (that it still isn't considered over)
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  210. # [09:42] <annevk> the TAG should get someone with web developer experience
  211. # [09:42] <annevk> and maybe someone with browser QA experience
  212. # [09:42] <annevk> if they want to remain somewhat relevant anyway
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  258. # [13:07] * Ms2ger loves http://dhtml5.com/
  259. # [13:10] <annevk> heh
  260. # [13:10] <hsivonen> nice
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  262. # [13:21] <Ms2ger> I just hope they'll have snowflakes for Christmas
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  264. # [13:25] <annevk> it needs some under construction
  265. # [13:26] <Philip`> Needs more <bgsound>
  266. # [13:26] <MikeSmith> annevk: plh is at home in Cambridge
  267. # [13:26] <MikeSmith> boston
  268. # [13:27] <annevk> kk
  269. # [13:30] <hsivonen> too bad the settlers believed in namespaces. all this confusion about Cambridge now...
  270. # [13:34] <Philip`> It's fine when they used an explicit prefix, like "New"
  271. # [13:34] <Philip`> It's just the default namespace that's a pain
  272. # [13:34] <hsivonen> new:cambridge
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  276. # [13:46] <virtuelv> Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
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  279. # [13:54] <hsivonen> Well, this is interesting: http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20100825006629/en (a way of making content providers put pressure on software providers, since it seems they still expect software providers to pay)
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  317. # [14:51] <Peter`> http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20100825006629/en
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  319. # [14:52] <Peter`> H264 will remain free for internet video for the rest of the codec's lifetime
  320. # [14:52] <Workshiva> This will be interesting
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  322. # [14:53] <Peter`> I concur, wondering what Mozilla's stance on it will be
  323. # [14:53] <hsivonen> free for the server operator to serve the bits over HTTP, that is
  324. # [14:53] <hsivonen> not free for browsers or for encoders
  325. # [14:53] <hsivonen> not free for sites that have video behind paid login
  326. # [14:55] <annevk> are they afraid of something?
  327. # [14:55] <annevk> I wonder why they announced that
  328. # [14:55] <Workshiva> Maybe because they want h264 to become the most popular codec?
  329. # [14:57] <Rik`> Workshiva: will that achieve anything?
  330. # [14:57] <daedb> Isn't it already the most popular?
  331. # [14:57] <Workshiva> Rik`: It will prevent other codecs from becoming popular, which makes them a lesser threat against h264's other areas of use
  332. # [14:58] <hsivonen> Rik`: they could extract money from encoder and decoder vendors while the people who make it popular think it's Not Their Problem
  333. # [14:58] * hsivonen looks forward to betanews coverage of this
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  340. # [15:05] <hsivonen> ooh. more test cases in html5lib
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  345. # [15:13] <hsivonen> I see a troubling number of failing cases that are supposed to be simple
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  347. # [15:16] <hsivonen> tests21.dat is in a bogus format...
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  350. # [15:31] <annevk> hsivonen, I think jgraham introduced something new
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  352. # [15:34] <hsivonen> annevk: the file lacks "| " at the start of the tree data lines
  353. # [15:34] <hsivonen> I'll add what's missing
  354. # [15:35] <annevk> who added that?
  355. # [15:35] <hsivonen> since it's not cool to make a trivial change to the test format when the trivial change would require revising a non-trivial number of test harnesses
  356. # [15:35] <annevk> uhuh
  357. # [15:36] <hsivonen> annevk: it seems to me that jgraham added it
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  405. # [17:16] <kkaefer> does anyone have an idea how to find out whether a path is clockwise or counterclockwise?
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  409. # [17:18] <Philip`> kkaefer: What kind of input do you have?
  410. # [17:18] <kkaefer> the path is the active path on the canvas
  411. # [17:18] <kkaefer> s/active/current/
  412. # [17:20] <Philip`> If you had a list of line segments that made a simple polygon then you can do lots of things like summing the turn angles at each vertex
  413. # [17:20] <Philip`> In general a path might not be either clockwise or anticlockwise (e.g. it could be both)
  414. # [17:22] <kkaefer> true
  415. # [17:22] <kkaefer> hm
  416. # [17:22] <Philip`> (Also it could clockwise but wind around twice)
  417. # [17:22] <kkaefer> what I'm trying to do is to draw an inset shadow
  418. # [17:23] <kkaefer> so what I'm doing is to draw the path, add a large rectangle around it, to invert the shape
  419. # [17:23] <kkaefer> clip() and fill()
  420. # [17:23] <kkaefer> which works just fine for simple shapes like circles and rectangles
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  422. # [17:24] <Philip`> Yeah, if you want arbitrarily complex paths then that's not going to work
  423. # [17:27] <Philip`> If you have two circles, one clockwise (winding number +1) and one anticlockwise (winding number -1), you can never add a constant amount to the winding number (by drawing a rectangle around the shapes) to make them both 0 (hence not-filled)
  424. # [17:27] <Philip`> It'd be more feasible if we had even/odd fill rules instead of just non-zero-winding-number
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  426. # [17:29] <kkaefer> yep
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  440. # [17:52] <kkaefer> Philip`: ok, found a way with offscreen canvas in case you're interested
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  442. # [17:54] <kkaefer> http://pastie.textmate.org/private/qiurumwij0rwnxj4ku6kw
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  446. # [18:01] * kkaefer can now render http://i.kkaefer.com/canvas-20100826-185830.png
  447. # [18:02] * Philip` sees that being unsubscribed from the hybi list hasn't stopped Shelby posting three consecutive posts as replies to each other in the same thread, in the past day, twice
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  449. # [18:03] <annevk> it is quite insane
  450. # [18:04] <Philip`> It'd be amusing if it wasn't wasting so much of everyone else's time
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  452. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> H.264 news is interesting
  453. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> but aren't a lot of the patents going to start expiring after 2015 anyway?
  454. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> hmm, wondering if anybody has a 10-20 on Maciej
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  458. # [18:16] <Ms2ger> Philip`, are people really still replying to him?
  459. # [18:17] <annevk> he is
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  470. # [18:27] <User> So as I understand, it is possible specify a font file in CSS, but it can't be use with Canvas.strokeText and Canvas.font
  471. # [18:27] <Philip`> That should be possible
  472. # [18:27] <Philip`> (Using it with canvas, I mean)
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  474. # [18:29] <User> I saw scripts that convert the glyphs into JS files and then redraw them in Canvas, and something like ctx.font="url(myfontfile.otf)" triggers an error
  475. # [18:30] <Philip`> ctx.font has to be a font face name, not a URL
  476. # [18:31] <Philip`> so you have to use @font-face to load the URL first
  477. # [18:31] <User> and canvas would use it ?
  478. # [18:31] <annevk> XHR test suite is public at last
  479. # [18:31] <annevk> http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/XMLHttpRequest/
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  482. # [18:32] <User> ah ok, I think I got it
  483. # [18:33] <Philip`> User: It should work like http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/2d.text.draw.fontface.html
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  485. # [18:34] <Philip`> using @font-face and then ctx.font = "TheFamilyNameYouDefined"
  486. # [18:34] <Philip`> (though you need to be careful to make sure the browser has finished loading the font first)
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  493. # [18:39] <User> I understand how it should work now... but no luck yet. Always the same error when the script runs. And the font file is on local directory, so loading time shouldn't be a problem now.
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  497. # [18:43] <User> The font works appears well in a paragraph with the font-family attribute, but not on the canvas with ctx.font
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  503. # [18:50] <User> It works with font-family set on canvas, so I consider it a bug. There should be an attribute ctx.fontFamily to set the font family at the level of the context
  504. # [18:51] <User> actually it works only if the size is specified
  505. # [18:51] <User> so it works now... sort of
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  531. # [19:32] <AryehGregor> This looks very interesting: http://tcpcrypt.org/tcpcrypt.pdf
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  536. # [19:44] <MikeSmith> can anybody suggest a Node framework that you've tried out and can recommend?
  537. # [19:44] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  538. # [19:44] <MikeSmith> I mean, e.g., express or geddy or .../
  539. # [19:44] <micheil> umm..
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  541. # [19:45] <micheil> I've looked at each, Express is nice, Connect is more config, geddy was okay, Fab looks nice, but it confused me a be
  542. # [19:45] <micheil> *bit
  543. # [19:45] <micheil> I'd probably go for Express.
  544. # [19:45] <micheil> MikeSmith: you should really ask in #node.js
  545. # [19:46] <MikeSmith> micheil: OK
  546. # [19:46] <MikeSmith> thanks
  547. # [19:46] <MikeSmith> fwiw, I have been trying out express a bit
  548. # [19:46] <MikeSmith> already
  549. # [19:46] <micheil> TJ has a few screencasts up too
  550. # [19:46] <MikeSmith> TJ?
  551. # [19:47] <micheil> http://screenr.com/6y0
  552. # [19:47] <micheil> the maintainer
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  554. # [19:50] * Parts: User (~chatzilla@ACaen-251-1-37-231.w83-115.abo.wanadoo.fr) ("Thanks Philip`")
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  556. # [19:51] <MikeSmith> I'm trying figure out how closely express is bound to haml
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  559. # [19:51] <MikeSmith> e.g., can I just use HTML source instead
  560. # [19:52] <micheil> express isn't bound to HAML, iirc.
  561. # [19:52] <MikeSmith> OK
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  563. # [19:53] <micheil> http://expressjs.com/guide.html#View-Rendering
  564. # [19:53] * MikeSmith reads
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  566. # [19:54] <MikeSmith> ah good
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  569. # [19:55] <MikeSmith> so I see mention of Jade there, and now I'm just looking at Jade for the first time
  570. # [19:56] <MikeSmith> and I see this: http://jade-lang.com/
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  572. # [19:56] <MikeSmith> and my reaction is, why/
  573. # [19:56] <MikeSmith> *why?
  574. # [19:57] <micheil> because it's better then haml?
  575. # [19:57] <MikeSmith> heh
  576. # [19:57] <MikeSmith> well, that's pretty easy to do
  577. # [19:58] <MikeSmith> I meant, why not just write it HTML to begin with?
  578. # [19:58] <micheil> MikeSmith: good luck with writing a tool like jade then :P
  579. # [19:58] <micheil> because you don't want to close tags and whatever else
  580. # [19:58] <micheil> and you want to have access to JS functions in your html
  581. # [19:58] <micheil> like, for loops, etc
  582. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> I think EJS looks more like what I'd personally prefer
  583. # [20:01] * aroben is now known as aroben|interview
  584. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> I do understand why people prefer haml and the haml-like approach, though
  585. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> I don't belittle it
  586. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> I don't mean to belittle it
  587. # [20:02] * aroben|interview is now known as aroben|meeting
  588. # [20:02] <micheil> MikeSmith: personally I'm use Jade in a client project, as they were already using haml, but haml had heaps of errors in the browser
  589. # [20:02] <MikeSmith> I see
  590. # [20:02] <MikeSmith> it does seem like a more error-prone approach
  591. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> more processing just to produce the actual HTML, more possible points of failure
  592. # [20:03] <micheil> true, but it's simpler for some reason
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  602. # [20:12] <jgornick> MikeSmith: I agree with you
  603. # [20:12] <jgornick> Give me a compelling reason why I need to use something like that to produce the same markup I can already easily write.
  604. # [20:13] <jgornick> "something" is like Haml, Jade, Sass, etc...
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  606. # [20:15] <Philip`> jgornick: Because you want to make it much harder to debug, by breaking the direct mapping between source code and output
  607. # [20:15] <micheil> jgornick: it's just quicker
  608. # [20:15] <micheil> harder to debug, yes
  609. # [20:15] <micheil> but it's still quicker to write
  610. # [20:16] <jgornick> micheil: If you are a pro at writing HTML and CSS, then it should be no quicker.
  611. # [20:16] <micheil> it actually is
  612. # [20:16] <jgornick> micheil: If you aren't a pro, then you should continue to learn/use HTML and CSS.
  613. # [20:16] <micheil> especially for something like SASS
  614. # [20:16] <micheil> which is for CSS
  615. # [20:16] <micheil> no {} or ;
  616. # [20:17] <micheil> nested selectors, meaning you don't repeat the nesting
  617. # [20:17] <jgornick> micheil: So, now I have to learn new syntaxes for something that is already easy?
  618. # [20:17] <micheil> jgornick: you don't have to, it's purely optional, some just find it easier to use new syntaxes
  619. # [20:18] <jgornick> micheil: Here's the thing, if everyone in your group/project is using it, then great. If not, no go.
  620. # [20:18] <MikeSmith> http://github.com/cramforce/node-asyncEJS#readme is interesting
  621. # [20:18] <MikeSmith> e.g., <h1><%? setTimeout(function () { res.print("Async Header"); res.finish(); }, 2000) %></h1>
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  623. # [20:18] <micheil> jgornick: exactly.
  624. # [20:19] <micheil> in said project of mine, we were already using haml-js, but it had a heap of errors, and the author suggested we move to jade, so we did
  625. # [20:20] <jgornick> micheil: For me, in terms of SASS, CSS is not meant to be compiled, it's not a scripting language and once Eric Meyer (the real Eric Meyer) starts presenting it and using it, I'll maybe consider using it.
  626. # [20:20] <micheil> jgornick: I couldn't care who's using it, if it makes my job a tiny bit easier, I'm all for it.
  627. # [20:20] <micheil> which, overall, it does.
  628. # [20:22] <micheil> jgornick: just sorta for my background on it: http://brandedcode.com/journal/2009/05/20/why-not-just-compile-your-css.html
  629. # [20:23] <micheil> anyway, I'm off.
  630. # [20:23] <micheil> night chaps'
  631. # [20:23] <micheil> s/chaps/folks
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  633. # [20:24] <jgornick> Night micheil
  634. # [20:24] <jgornick> Good talks
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  636. # [20:24] <micheil> no worries
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  653. # [20:50] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben
  654. # [20:50] <Lachy> h.264 is now permanently royalty free for internet streaming sites. http://arstechnica.com/media/news/2010/08/mpeg-la-counters-google-webm-with-permanent-royalty-moratorium.ars
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  659. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> But browsers would still have to pay royalties?
  660. # [20:54] <Philip`> Yes
  661. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> Then that doesn't really change anything, does it?
  662. # [20:54] <Philip`> (At least that's what hsivonen said)
  663. # [20:54] <Lachy> yeah, it's only for web sites
  664. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> Most websites weren't really expecting to pay anything anyway.
  665. # [20:54] <crash\> AryehGregor: only eyewashing
  666. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> What?
  667. # [20:54] <cheeser> software patents--
  668. # [20:55] <Lachy> previously, they had announced that it would be royalty free until 2015, at which point they would review the issue again.
  669. # [20:55] <cheeser> only a fool would take them up on that offer.
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  671. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> Um.
  672. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> Anyone who did take them up on that offer was just proven completely correct, weren't they?
  673. # [20:56] <cheeser> "use it for free until you're absolutely dependent on it, then we'll put you over a barrel."
  674. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> Hard to call them foolish.
  675. # [20:56] <Philip`> Sounds like the only real difference is that people can no longer use the argument "you can use H.264 on your site for free now, but there's a bit of uncertainty five years from now, and you can avoid that uncertainty by using [some other codec]"
  676. # [20:56] <MikeSmith> so this timely news story is about something that will not make any difference at all to anybody until after 2015
  677. # [20:56] <Lachy> so it would mean that sites like vimeo and dailymotion who stream h.264 content, and who AFAIK, have no reason to pay the royalties themselves, won't have to pay up in the future.
  678. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> I think it's probably more correct to say that people who were worried about the 2015 thing turned out to be paranoid, rather than the unworried people being foolish.
  679. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> By 2015 it should be pretty easy to switch to WebM, anyway. I mean, Flash is supporting it, so even if you can't use HTML5 for all users, you can use WebM in Flash rather than H.264 in Flash.
  680. # [20:58] <cheeser> unless you're on an apple device
  681. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> So the threat of the 2015 royalties became kind of empty with the WebM launch. Which I guess is why they dropped it.
  682. # [20:58] <Lachy> well, it means that the previous arguments I've read about not supporting h.264 using codecs available on the platform based on the future threat of royalties for websites are now defeated.
  683. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> I guess.
  684. # [20:59] * cheeser cancels his questions and goes to rtfa
  685. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> It's pretty brief.
  686. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> We said everything substantive in it already.
  687. # [20:59] <cheeser> right. "free to view" but not "free to produce"
  688. # [21:00] <Lachy> but it was inevitable that this would be the result because such royalties were not in the MPEGLA's best interest anyway
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  690. # [21:00] <AryehGregor> They would be if it had no credible competition.
  691. # [21:00] <AryehGregor> Of course, it would only impose them on sites that could pay.
  692. # [21:01] <Lachy> cheeser, yeah, content producers are still technically subject to the licence issue whereby owning the software that produces h.264 doesn't give you the right to produce it for commercial purposes.
  693. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> Now we just need Microsoft to fully jump on the WebM bandwagon. I can't see Apple remaining sole holdout for long.
  694. # [21:01] <cheeser> one shouldn't have to pay to use standards like that.
  695. # [21:01] <cheeser> and they certainly shouldn't be codified into open standards such as html
  696. # [21:02] <cheeser> but then i think all software patents should be stripped.
  697. # [21:02] <Lachy> we had that discussion with some Microsoft and Apple reps who were in Norway for the CSS WG meeting, and it still seems as though they're not going to do it.
  698. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> No one was suggesting that H.264 be required by HTML5. That would contradict the W3C's position on RF patents, for one thing.
  699. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> Blargh.
  700. # [21:03] <Lachy> but that was just informal discussions at the pub, so nothing they said was official in any way
  701. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> But you don't really know what they're going to do, because their lawyers will say nothing until the last second.
  702. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> I mean, you were talking to developers, right? They aren't the ones making the decision.
  703. # [21:04] * AryehGregor wonders why Google can't work out some type of indemnification agreement with MS and Apple . . . surely that doesn't increase their risk much given how much WebM they ship anyway?
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  705. # [21:04] * AryehGregor also wonders why the patent license doesn't cover reimplementations or modified versions. Whatever happened to being against field-of-use restrictions?
  706. # [21:04] <Rik`> Lachy: we also need hardware decoding
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  716. # [21:34] <Lachy> Rik`, yes, but hopefully that will come soon enough, given that there are many hardware vendors in the list of webm supporters
  717. # [21:35] <Lachy> but do you reckon having webm decoding in hardware will increase the chance of Microsoft or Apple supporting it?
  718. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> I don't see why, for the desktop.
  719. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> I can see why it would encourage support for mobile devices.
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  723. # [21:49] <Rik`> Lachy: Safari and IE have hardware decoding for H264, there's no chance they gonna switch to webm without it
  724. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> It's not a matter of switching, it's a matter of supporting.
  725. # [21:52] <AryehGregor> Authors can decide which format to use based on availability of hardware encoding, among other factors.
  726. # [21:52] <AryehGregor> Decoding.
  727. # [21:52] <AryehGregor> Whatever.
  728. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> On typical desktops, WebM should decode fast enough in software for most uses, at least for now.
  729. # [21:56] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
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  733. # [22:01] <Lachy> AryehGregor, unfortunately, software decoding of 720p and 1080p webm is not very performant
  734. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> Yet? :)
  735. # [22:02] <Rik`> AryehGregor: that's not how Apple sees it. Either it's good enough to ship or they don't ship
  736. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> Oh well. Clearly it will take a few years.
  737. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> Rik`, so would they refuse to render GIFs because PNG provides superior compression?
  738. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> Kind of stupid example, because obviously you have to support GIF.
  739. # [22:02] <Rik`> compression is not a matter of end user
  740. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> But I'm really quite sure this is largely a legal issue, not a technical issue.
  741. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> I mean, Steve Jobs Himself has pretty much said so.
  742. # [22:05] <Lachy> Rik`, it seems likely that hardware with WebM decoding could start appearing in computers since AMD and nVidia are in the supporter list. So Apple could potentially include the necessary hardware in future Macs, as could PC vendors
  743. # [22:06] <Rik`> Lachy: yeah and I hope so
  744. # [22:06] <Rik`> but until there's something concrete, they won't
  745. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> I really don't think hardware support is a blocker for Safari WebM support.
  746. # [22:06] <othermaciej> I have heard that WebM's design is not friendly to hardware decoding
  747. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> Shall we try to badger a statement beyond "No comment" from some friendly Safari dev? :)
  748. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> Ah, speak of the devil!
  749. # [22:07] <Lachy> after that, it's really just the legal risk of proceeding with it. But I'm reasonably confident that the WebM supporters would have a wide range of defensive patents to fend off any challenges from the MPEGLA.
  750. # [22:07] <othermaciej> that being said, I'm sure QuickTime ships with some codecs that decode purely in software
  751. # [22:07] <Lachy> so the real risk is just patent trolls
  752. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, if you can comment, do you think that Safari for the desktop would support WebM out of the box if there were any legal issues?
  753. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> I mean, if there were no legal issues?
  754. # [22:08] <AryehGregor> (I guess the question is really about QuickTime.)
  755. # [22:12] <othermaciej> I think our other big issue would be that if something is going to become the de facto standard for Web video, we need it to be viable on mobile devices
  756. # [22:15] <AryehGregor> But you could support it without endorsing it as the de facto standard for web video. I mean, QuickTime supports tons of random formats, right?
  757. # [22:16] <eric_carlson> Safari on the desktop supports it now if you have the WebM QuickTime components installed.
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  759. # [22:20] <Rik`> eric_carlson: is there any webm quicktime component?
  760. # [22:21] <eric_carlson> Rik`: yes, in TOT Perian
  761. # [22:22] <Rik`> oh great! we just need to wait for a release
  762. # [22:24] <Rik`> AryehGregor: I don't think iOS supports any non hardware decoded codec
  763. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> Probably not.
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  773. # [22:56] * AryehGregor realizes that there's no point in compiling Firefox from source if he just wants to test if something works in a nightly, hmm
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The end :)