/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-08-27 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 27 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:15] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
  4. # [00:16] <annevk> http://daringfireball.net/linked/2010/08/26/h264 -- euh gruber fail :/
  5. # [00:17] * Joins: apucacao (~apucacao@S010600226b6dbc54.vc.shawcable.net)
  6. # [00:17] <othermaciej> isn't what he says accurate?
  7. # [00:17] <annevk> it's still bait and switch
  8. # [00:17] <othermaciej> there are presumably other issues with the AVC license, but it seems the worry that they will start charging for free internet video is not one of them
  9. # [00:17] <annevk> for the majority of stuff you still have to pay
  10. # [00:17] <othermaciej> that was the concern that people labeled "bait & switch" if I recall correctly
  11. # [00:17] <Workshiva> There's no switch, though
  12. # [00:18] <Workshiva> You get exactly what they offer from day one
  13. # [00:19] <annevk> if enough people get lured by the bigger bait, the switch is everyone being trapped by MPEG LA
  14. # [00:19] <annevk> othermaciej, not pointing out the other issues at all is just bad
  15. # [00:20] <annevk> othermaciej, he makes it seem as if H264 is problem free
  16. # [00:20] <othermaciej> my interpretation was, "this one potential problem with h.264 has now been addressed", rather than "h.264 has no problems", but I am more knowledgable about the issue than the average reader
  17. # [00:22] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  18. # [00:22] <annevk> I didn't really see this as a problem at all
  19. # [00:22] <annevk> it's dwarfed by the other problems imo
  20. # [00:23] * Quits: hdhoang0 (~hdhoang@hdhoang.zahe.me) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  21. # [00:25] * Quits: apucacao (~apucacao@S010600226b6dbc54.vc.shawcable.net) (Quit: apucacao)
  22. # [00:25] * Quits: jgornick (~joe@199.199.212.242) (Quit: jgornick)
  23. # [00:26] <othermaciej> some people did cite it as a problem
  24. # [00:27] <annevk> sure, I'm not saying it was not a problem; it's just not the main issue by a long shot
  25. # [00:28] * Joins: hdhoang0 (~hdhoang@hdhoang.zahe.me)
  26. # [00:29] * Quits: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@wrls-249-203-47.wrls-client.fas.harvard.edu) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  27. # [00:32] <othermaciej> for example roc cited it as a major issue here: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2010/01/video_freedom_a.html
  28. # [00:32] <annevk> Hixie, with http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/EventSource/ maybe we can move server-sent events to PR soonish
  29. # [00:33] <annevk> Hixie, though .url/.URL still seems an issue with WebKit
  30. # [00:33] <annevk> Hixie, and Opera has not quite released something public yet (though should happen soonish)
  31. # [00:34] <roc> I think it was a major issue that has now gone away
  32. # [00:34] <roc> there are other major issues
  33. # [00:34] <roc> it is not important for us to agree on this
  34. # [00:36] <roc> it is important for us to agree that Gruber is a weasel
  35. # [00:49] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.112) (Remote host closed the connection)
  36. # [00:49] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-170-69-59.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: micheil)
  37. # [00:50] * Quits: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust1111.hari.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  38. # [00:51] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-yyqtwbzbnmuoywnc) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  39. # [00:51] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3602:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7) (Quit: kennyluck)
  40. # [00:57] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@cm-84.208.74.81.getinternet.no) (Quit: annevk)
  41. # [01:02] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feb1:5d30) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  42. # [01:04] * Joins: riven` (~riven@53518387.cable.casema.nl)
  43. # [01:05] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  44. # [01:06] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-zpntipobiihwstag)
  45. # [01:06] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.230) (Quit: othermaciej)
  46. # [01:07] * Quits: riven (~riven@53518387.cable.casema.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  47. # [01:10] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@2620:0:1b00:1f08:9227:e4ff:fef3:599)
  48. # [01:10] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  49. # [01:12] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@2620:0:1b00:1f08:9227:e4ff:fef3:599) (Remote host closed the connection)
  50. # [01:12] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
  51. # [01:13] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@2620:0:1b00:1f08:9227:e4ff:fef3:599)
  52. # [01:13] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@2620:0:1b00:1f08:9227:e4ff:fef3:599) (Remote host closed the connection)
  53. # [01:14] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@2620:0:1b00:1f08:9227:e4ff:fef3:599)
  54. # [01:14] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@2620:0:1b00:1f08:9227:e4ff:fef3:599) (Remote host closed the connection)
  55. # [01:15] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@2620:0:1b00:1f08:9227:e4ff:fef3:599)
  56. # [01:15] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@2620:0:1b00:1f08:9227:e4ff:fef3:599) (Remote host closed the connection)
  57. # [01:16] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@2620:0:1b00:1f08:9227:e4ff:fef3:599)
  58. # [01:17] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@2620:0:1b00:1f08:9227:e4ff:fef3:599) (Remote host closed the connection)
  59. # [01:17] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.15.252)
  60. # [01:19] <AryehGregor> IPv6 not working reliably for you? :)
  61. # [01:29] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  62. # [01:39] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-oddmhmduiralscyy) (Quit: dglazkov)
  63. # [01:40] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@dslb-088-075-056-239.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  64. # [01:48] * Joins: Boogyman (~chatzilla@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  65. # [01:49] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@dslb-088-075-056-239.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  66. # [01:55] * Quits: yutak_home (~kee@U017209.ppp.dion.ne.jp) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  67. # [01:57] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  68. # [02:02] * Quits: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  69. # [02:03] * Joins: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk)
  70. # [02:04] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.15.252) (Quit: othermaciej)
  71. # [02:07] * Quits: aroben|away (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  72. # [02:08] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.17.113)
  73. # [02:09] <Hixie> AryehGregor: what would <script>alert('&%dGVzdA==;')</script> alert, if anything?
  74. # [02:10] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I don't know, it's not my proposal.
  75. # [02:10] <Hixie> (and how about <script>alert(&%Jyk7YWxlcnQoZG9jdW1lbnQuY29va2llICsgJw;)</script>)
  76. # [02:10] <Hixie> k
  77. # [02:11] <Hixie> ah, anne answered my question
  78. # [02:18] * Philip` notes that some pages write <a href="foo%20&%20;bar.html">
  79. # [02:19] <Philip`> so it's not entirely clear the proposed syntax is safe
  80. # [02:20] <Hixie> well the character can be changed, certainly
  81. # [02:20] <Hixie> doesn't have to be *%
  82. # [02:20] <Hixie> &% even
  83. # [02:20] <Hixie> (i was wondering about that myself)
  84. # [02:21] <AryehGregor> It could be a multicharacter string, like "xn--". :)
  85. # [02:21] <jcranmer> just make it My
  86. # [02:22] <jcranmer> who'd use that? ;-)
  87. # [02:22] * Quits: dpranke (~Adium@nat/google/x-scmdijswxhnaqjyf) (Quit: Leaving.)
  88. # [02:23] <Philip`> Seems a bit strange to me to design something based on the assumption that people are too uninformed to follow a few simple rules (like always quote attributes and use some particular escape function based on current syntax), but will be able to use a new syntax and escaping function without getting horridly confused
  89. # [02:23] <Philip`> particularly since for the next five years people will write articles saying not to use this syntax yet, since it's not backward-compatible with IE6
  90. # [02:24] <Philip`> and after that people will continue reading those articles
  91. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> The only possible utility I see is easy escaping in <script>, and I'm far from sure that that justifies it.
  92. # [02:25] <Philip`> (Also everybody will get the character encoding wrong, and it's terrible for 'view source')
  93. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> "View source" can translate it, in principle.
  94. # [02:25] <Philip`> Then it wouldn't be 'view source'
  95. # [02:25] <Philip`> It'd be 'view something that's a bit like the source but not quite'
  96. # [02:25] <Philip`> and anyway my text editor won't translate it when opening an .html file
  97. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> Isn't that what "view source" already is, at least in Firefox?
  98. # [02:27] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  99. # [02:27] <Philip`> No
  100. # [02:27] <Philip`> as far as I'm aware
  101. # [02:27] <Philip`> unless you mean 'view selection source'
  102. # [02:27] <Philip`> which seems fancier
  103. # [02:27] <AryehGregor> I think it mangles the source. Maybe I'm wrong.
  104. # [02:28] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@75-37-194-175.lightspeed.lsatca.sbcglobal.net)
  105. # [02:28] <Philip`> Wouldn't this new syntax break blacklist-based XSS filters because you could write <span style="&%XhwcmVzc2lvbjphbGVydCgnb2ggbm8nKQo=;"> etc and sneak in forbidden properties?
  106. # [02:29] <AryehGregor> Probably.
  107. # [02:29] <Philip`> (Uh, I got that syntax all wrong)
  108. # [02:30] * Quits: ap (~ap@17.246.19.116) (Remote host closed the connection)
  109. # [02:34] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  110. # [02:35] <Hixie> blacklist-based XSS filters are already broken
  111. # [02:37] <Philip`> People seem to design them to be sufficiently complex and conservative to successfully work in practice
  112. # [02:38] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  113. # [02:38] * Philip` thought MediaWiki had something like that
  114. # [02:39] <wirepair> really?
  115. # [02:40] <wirepair> every site i've ever tested has failed
  116. # [02:40] <wirepair> ;)
  117. # [02:41] <wirepair> especially when developers are taking user input and assigning it inside of <script> </script> blocks
  118. # [02:41] <wirepair> it's impossible to create a blacklist for that
  119. # [02:42] <Philip`> http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/includes/Sanitizer.php?view=markup#l744 - that kind of thing
  120. # [02:42] * Joins: espadrine_ (~yannt@AMontsouris-157-1-130-212.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  121. # [02:43] <wirepair> input validation/filtering is different than black listing
  122. # [02:43] <wirepair> when i think of blacklisting i'm thinking like lookign for <script> tags
  123. # [02:43] <wirepair> or whatever
  124. # [02:44] <Philip`> preg_match( '! expression | filter\s*: | accelerator\s*: | url\s*\( !ix', $value )
  125. # [02:44] <Philip`> That's the blacklisting
  126. # [02:44] <Philip`> and first it does some filtering to remove escaping and spaces and comments and other potentially dangerous things
  127. # [02:45] * Quits: espadrine (~yannt@AMontsouris-157-1-68-152.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  128. # [02:45] * espadrine_ is now known as espadrine
  129. # [02:45] <Philip`> but it looks like it probably will accept &%...; input unchanged
  130. # [02:45] <Philip`> which lets the input circumvent the blacklist
  131. # [02:46] <wirepair> yeah
  132. # [02:46] <wirepair> where is this new proposal anwyays
  133. # [02:46] <Philip`> WHATWG list
  134. # [02:47] <wirepair> got it
  135. # [02:49] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  136. # [02:53] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Read error: No route to host)
  137. # [02:54] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  138. # [02:58] <wirepair> hu, i mean i think it makes sense and protects elements in some cases
  139. # [03:04] * Joins: mpilgrim (~mpilgrim@rrcs-98-101-146-174.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  140. # [03:04] <mpilgrim> othermaciej: yt?
  141. # [03:04] <othermaciej> mpilgrim: good day sir
  142. # [03:04] <mpilgrim> i'm having reports that http://diveintohtml5.org/detect.html crashes the iPad browser
  143. # [03:05] <mpilgrim> do you have access to an iPad to verify that?
  144. # [03:05] <othermaciej> sure I can test
  145. # [03:06] <othermaciej> cannot reproduce
  146. # [03:06] <othermaciej> it loaded fine for me
  147. # [03:06] <mpilgrim> well shit
  148. # [03:07] <mpilgrim> source of the bug report claims it happens for others too: http://twitter.com/al3xandru/status/22220332275
  149. # [03:07] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  150. # [03:07] <mpilgrim> the only recent change i made was the font-face declaration, it now includes an SVG font (generated by fontsquirrel's awesome font-face generator)
  151. # [03:08] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0)
  152. # [03:08] <mpilgrim> i'm waiting on reports about whether http://diveintohtml5.org/test.html (which is the same page, but without the SVG font-face declaration) also crashes
  153. # [03:08] <paul_irish> i can repro the crash on iPad
  154. # [03:08] <mpilgrim> aha
  155. # [03:09] <mpilgrim> when does it happen? on load?
  156. # [03:09] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  157. # [03:09] <paul_irish> test.html does not crash.
  158. # [03:09] <mpilgrim> hooray!
  159. # [03:09] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: zzzzz)
  160. # [03:09] <mpilgrim> er,
  161. # [03:09] <mpilgrim> you know what i mean
  162. # [03:09] <paul_irish> (yeah on load)
  163. # [03:09] <mpilgrim> ok
  164. # [03:09] <mpilgrim> it's definitely the SVG fonts then
  165. # [03:09] <paul_irish> the only difference is the url('f/essays1743-italic-webfont.svg#webfontmRs1TiYo') format('svg') and such?
  166. # [03:09] <mpilgrim> yes
  167. # [03:10] <mpilgrim> 5 or 6 instances -- two fonts with different styles/variants
  168. # [03:10] <paul_irish> Yeah sounds like ripe territory for a bug.
  169. # [03:11] <othermaciej> I tried a few more times and still no crash
  170. # [03:11] <mpilgrim> well, crashing is definitely a bug -- dunno if it's exploitable, but still
  171. # [03:11] <mpilgrim> i'd hate to be responsible for the next major jailbreak exploit :-D
  172. # [03:11] <othermaciej> I'm running iOS 3.2.2
  173. # [03:11] <othermaciej> (7B500)
  174. # [03:11] <paul_irish> 3.2 (7B367)
  175. # [03:12] <othermaciej> would love to hear if it still happens for you after updating
  176. # [03:12] <othermaciej> I think odds are good that this is a fixed bug, as I recall hearing about a bug with svg fonts
  177. # [03:13] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-66-31-20-13.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  178. # [03:13] <mpilgrim> i wonder if google's font API team knows about this
  179. # [03:13] <paul_irish> i'll ping them about it.
  180. # [03:14] <mpilgrim> not sure how we would detect it
  181. # [03:14] <mpilgrim> UA sniffing, i guess :(
  182. # [03:14] <mpilgrim> hard to detect a browser crash ahead of time
  183. # [03:14] <mpilgrim> what with the halting problem and all that
  184. # [03:14] <paul_irish> yup. would have to.
  185. # [03:15] <othermaciej> people tend to update iOS pretty quickly, though maybe a bit less for for minor updates
  186. # [03:15] <mpilgrim> are you willing to upgrade your iPad for science?
  187. # [03:15] <mpilgrim> (@paul_irish)
  188. # [03:15] <paul_irish> dont have a cable handy at the moment, but as soon as we do, certainly will.
  189. # [03:16] <mpilgrim> ok
  190. # [03:16] <mpilgrim> i'll leave those SVG fonts up at their current locations, but i'm going to update my HTML to stop referring to them
  191. # [03:17] <mpilgrim> in lieu of doing minor-version UA sniffing, which is the kind of extreme optimization that my employer might be willing to do, but I personally am not
  192. # [03:24] * Joins: Workmon (~Dashiva@74.125.119.2)
  193. # [03:27] * Quits: Workshiva (~Dashiva@74.125.57.36) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  194. # [03:28] * Joins: variable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable)
  195. # [03:29] <variable> Hixie, around ?
  196. # [03:29] * Quits: Workmon (~Dashiva@74.125.119.2) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  197. # [03:29] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-zpntipobiihwstag) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  198. # [03:33] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0) (Quit: mdelaney)
  199. # [03:35] * Joins: Workshiva (~Dashiva@74.125.57.36)
  200. # [03:39] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  201. # [03:39] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  202. # [03:44] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  203. # [03:44] * Quits: romeo_ (~romeo__@x1-6-00-02-44-60-6c-8e.k602.webspeed.dk) (Quit: Leaving)
  204. # [03:45] * Quits: aho (~nya@fuld-4d00d6ab.pool.mediaWays.net) (Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION)
  205. # [03:48] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@220.109.219.244)
  206. # [03:54] * Quits: jlebar (~jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-qoixuhclgbfaarab) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  207. # [03:57] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@75-37-194-175.lightspeed.lsatca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: dglazkov)
  208. # [03:58] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-17-60.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  209. # [03:58] * Joins: jlebar (~jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-jrdtpjttosmhadsq)
  210. # [04:02] * Quits: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: nimbupani)
  211. # [04:02] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-42-130.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  212. # [04:05] * Joins: bobchao (~cctw@112-105-140-77.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw)
  213. # [04:10] * Joins: welly (~welly@unaffiliated/welly)
  214. # [04:16] <wirepair> Hixie do you have any license for your live DOM Viewer? I'd like to include it in my browser testing kit
  215. # [04:22] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@17.244.13.231) (Quit: -)
  216. # [04:23] * Quits: jlebar (~jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-jrdtpjttosmhadsq) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  217. # [04:24] * Joins: eric_carlson (~ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  218. # [04:25] * Joins: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244)
  219. # [04:27] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@dslb-088-075-056-239.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  220. # [04:27] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-vrizhgwfchfxaovw)
  221. # [04:28] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.17.113) (Quit: othermaciej)
  222. # [04:31] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-42-130.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: The curfew tolls the knell of parting day... the plowman homeward plods his weary way)
  223. # [04:41] <Hixie> wirepair: what license is your browser testing kit?
  224. # [04:44] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-169-0-56.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  225. # [04:44] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  226. # [04:49] <wirepair> haven't decided yet ;)
  227. # [04:49] <wirepair> whatever license says you can use it / modify it, but can't just sell it without giving back source
  228. # [04:54] <Hixie> if you use MIT, BSD, GPL 2 or 3, or Apache 2, feel free to just use it under the same license
  229. # [04:54] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@c-76-102-33-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  230. # [04:55] <wirepair> thanks, is there any server side code? or what you see is what you get at http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/
  231. # [05:02] <variable> wirepair, just use the BSD licence - simple. easy. free. ;)
  232. # [05:02] <Hixie> there's some server-side code for the saving/loading, iirc
  233. # [05:02] <Hixie> but should be trivial enough to reimplement
  234. # [05:02] <variable> Hixie, about the type="username" proposal. If I understand correctly the issue was lack of any UA difference?
  235. # [05:03] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-vrizhgwfchfxaovw) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  236. # [05:04] <Hixie> variable: the main issue was that we already have solutions in place that people aren't using, so there's no reason to believe anyone will use new features
  237. # [05:04] <Boogyman> html5 discussion?
  238. # [05:04] <variable> Hixie, you don't think that browser vendors have more of a focus on HTML5 over other standards?
  239. # [05:05] <Hixie> like which?
  240. # [05:05] <Hixie> by "people" i meant authors, not browser vendors
  241. # [05:06] * Joins: jlebar (~jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-tmmniqngoqutcogp)
  242. # [05:06] <variable> Hixie, or document authors. I'm fairly knolegeable of various web standards - but I've never heard of RFC3106
  243. # [05:06] <Hixie> well, you've heard of it now :-)
  244. # [05:07] <variable> Hixie, only cause I followed that specific proposal before it made it to HTML5. For the document authors that care about semantics and use the HTML5 spec - but don't follow the development of the spec - they won't ever hear of it
  245. # [05:08] <variable> and IMHO a document author should not be expected to follow the WHATWG mailing list
  246. # [05:08] <variable> in order to find out how to mark up things properaly
  247. # [05:08] <variable> *properly
  248. # [05:09] * Joins: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  249. # [05:10] <Hixie> variable: i think plenty of other specifications have managed to get plenty of exposure without being in the technology of the day (be that html5 or whatever)
  250. # [05:11] <Hixie> variable: if peoplereally want a solution, they'll use the one that exists
  251. # [05:15] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  252. # [05:16] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@dslb-088-075-056-239.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  253. # [05:17] * Joins: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  254. # [05:17] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  255. # [05:20] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  256. # [05:21] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108)
  257. # [05:22] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108) (Remote host closed the connection)
  258. # [05:23] * Quits: hamcore (rhythm@unaffiliated/msmosso)
  259. # [05:24] * Joins: scherkus (~scherkus@74.125.59.65)
  260. # [05:30] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@75-37-194-175.lightspeed.lsatca.sbcglobal.net)
  261. # [05:32] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@c-71-198-3-129.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  262. # [05:33] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.159.231) (Quit: boaz)
  263. # [05:39] * Quits: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
  264. # [05:43] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@EM114-48-188-211.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  265. # [05:50] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@c-71-198-3-129.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  266. # [05:52] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.49.235) (Remote host closed the connection)
  267. # [05:56] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-ddrgscpnikynwhul) (Remote host closed the connection)
  268. # [06:00] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@67.218.109.118)
  269. # [06:02] * Quits: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  270. # [06:02] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@91.182.49.235)
  271. # [06:03] * Quits: variable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable) (Quit: Daemon escaped from pentagram)
  272. # [06:04] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  273. # [06:09] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.49.235) (Quit: Updating Textual - http://www.codeux.com/textual/)
  274. # [06:09] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@91.182.49.235)
  275. # [06:13] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@75-37-194-175.lightspeed.lsatca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: dglazkov)
  276. # [06:18] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-66-31-20-13.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  277. # [06:29] * Joins: homata__ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  278. # [06:31] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@EM114-48-188-211.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: kennyluck)
  279. # [06:31] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  280. # [06:37] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-42-130.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  281. # [06:45] * Quits: bobchao (~cctw@112-105-140-77.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  282. # [06:46] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@67.218.109.118) (Remote host closed the connection)
  283. # [06:48] <MikeSmith> brianleroux++
  284. # [06:48] <MikeSmith> for lots of reasons
  285. # [06:50] <MikeSmith> but at the moment, for http://github.com/brianleroux/wtfjs
  286. # [06:51] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-76-21-40-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  287. # [07:05] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-65-96-171-250.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  288. # [07:07] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  289. # [07:09] * Joins: KarlinTrouble (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  290. # [07:09] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  291. # [07:12] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  292. # [07:18] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  293. # [07:19] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  294. # [07:19] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  295. # [07:20] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  296. # [07:24] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  297. # [07:25] * Joins: Ankheg (~Miranda@fs91-201-3-30.dubna-net.ru)
  298. # [07:28] * Joins: rimantas (~rimliu@lan-84-240-20-219.vln.skynet.lt)
  299. # [07:30] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-42-130.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: The curfew tolls the knell of parting day... the plowman homeward plods his weary way)
  300. # [07:30] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-42-130.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  301. # [07:31] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.49.235) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  302. # [07:34] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  303. # [07:37] * Quits: homata__ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  304. # [07:45] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@220.109.219.244) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  305. # [07:46] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  306. # [07:46] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Client Quit)
  307. # [07:46] * Joins: agektmr1 (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  308. # [07:46] * Quits: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: nimbupani)
  309. # [07:49] * Quits: welly (~welly@unaffiliated/welly) (Remote host closed the connection)
  310. # [07:57] * Quits: sean` (~Sean@84-106-110-173.cable.quicknet.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  311. # [07:58] * Joins: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison)
  312. # [08:00] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@c-71-198-3-129.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  313. # [08:00] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@c-71-198-3-129.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  314. # [08:03] * Quits: Boogyman (~chatzilla@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716])
  315. # [08:13] * Quits: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: roc)
  316. # [08:17] * Quits: ukai (~ukai@nat/google/x-wyeymuzzzapbfopr) (Remote host closed the connection)
  317. # [08:17] * temp01 is now known as sean
  318. # [08:17] * sean is now known as temp01
  319. # [08:17] * Joins: ukai (~ukai@220.109.219.244)
  320. # [08:25] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@dhcp-11-239.it.uu.se)
  321. # [08:26] * Joins: mamund_ (mamund@frost.nullshells.net)
  322. # [08:28] * Quits: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  323. # [08:30] * Quits: espadrine (~yannt@AMontsouris-157-1-130-212.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Quit: espadrine)
  324. # [08:31] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  325. # [08:31] * Quits: yutak (~yutak@2401:fa00:4:1000:21d:9ff:fe0a:85f) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  326. # [08:32] * Joins: reni_ (~reni@sedkit.inf.u-szeged.hu)
  327. # [08:34] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@cm-84.208.74.81.getinternet.no)
  328. # [08:46] * Joins: bobchao (~cctw@DHCP-21089.iis.sinica.edu.tw)
  329. # [08:50] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:2014:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7)
  330. # [08:50] * Joins: yutak (~yutak@2401:fa00:4:1000:21d:9ff:fe0a:85f)
  331. # [08:52] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  332. # [08:53] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.228.87)
  333. # [08:57] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  334. # [09:00] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-140-7.catv.broadband.hu)
  335. # [09:02] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  336. # [09:04] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  337. # [09:05] * Joins: sean` (~sean@h160089.upc-h.chello.nl)
  338. # [09:05] * Joins: sean`` (~sean@h160089.upc-h.chello.nl)
  339. # [09:07] * Quits: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  340. # [09:09] * Quits: sean`` (~sean@h160089.upc-h.chello.nl) (Client Quit)
  341. # [09:13] <annevk> hmm, charset registration is also failing it seems
  342. # [09:13] <annevk> 3 months without answer
  343. # [09:13] <annevk> actually 4
  344. # [09:14] <annevk> geez
  345. # [09:14] * Joins: peol (~peol@unaffiliated/peol)
  346. # [09:17] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  347. # [09:29] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  348. # [09:33] * Quits: dave_levin (~dave_levi@74.125.59.73) (Quit: dave_levin)
  349. # [09:35] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@dnuhd.xs4all.nl)
  350. # [09:35] * Quits: rsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244) (Quit: rsteiner)
  351. # [09:36] * Quits: ciaran_l1e (leecn@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  352. # [09:38] * Quits: Ankheg (~Miranda@fs91-201-3-30.dubna-net.ru) (Quit: Ankheg)
  353. # [09:39] * Joins: Ankheg (~Miranda@fs91-201-3-30.dubna-net.ru)
  354. # [09:40] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@dnuhd.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  355. # [09:44] * Quits: peol (~peol@unaffiliated/peol) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  356. # [09:45] * Joins: ciaran_lee (leecn@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie)
  357. # [09:45] * Joins: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  358. # [09:46] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  359. # [09:46] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  360. # [09:46] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  361. # [09:47] * Joins: jacobolu_ (~jacobolus@c-65-96-171-250.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  362. # [09:47] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  363. # [09:48] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@c-76-102-33-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: -)
  364. # [09:48] * Quits: bobchao (~cctw@DHCP-21089.iis.sinica.edu.tw) (Quit: Leaving.)
  365. # [09:48] * Joins: bobchao (~cctw@DHCP-21089.iis.sinica.edu.tw)
  366. # [09:49] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-65-96-171-250.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  367. # [09:50] * Quits: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  368. # [09:52] * Joins: rolandsteiner_ (~rolandste@2401:fa00:4:1000:225:ff:feee:ff2b)
  369. # [09:53] * Joins: Necrathex (~bleptop@g199099.upc-g.chello.nl)
  370. # [09:53] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@124-170-69-59.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  371. # [09:53] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  372. # [09:57] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  373. # [09:57] * rolandsteiner_ is now known as rsteiner
  374. # [09:57] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-42-130.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  375. # [10:01] * Joins: peol (~peol@unaffiliated/peol)
  376. # [10:04] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  377. # [10:07] * Quits: ukai (~ukai@220.109.219.244) (Remote host closed the connection)
  378. # [10:07] * Joins: ukai (~ukai@nat/google/x-exllshmbztmiczxu)
  379. # [10:11] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  380. # [10:14] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@c-68-40-243-245.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
  381. # [10:15] <virtuelv> Neat; http://joshduck.com/periodic-table.html
  382. # [10:15] * Joins: homata__ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  383. # [10:16] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  384. # [10:16] <annevk> added responseBlob to XMLHttpRequest Level 2
  385. # [10:17] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  386. # [10:17] <annevk> somewhat tempted to also add followRedirects
  387. # [10:17] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  388. # [10:18] * Joins: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  389. # [10:19] <virtuelv> annevk: unconditionally follow them, or with limitations?
  390. # [10:20] <annevk> xhr.followRedirects would be a boolean
  391. # [10:20] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@g199099.upc-g.chello.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  392. # [10:20] <annevk> true by default (as it is now)
  393. # [10:20] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
  394. # [10:20] <annevk> when set to false you simply get the response
  395. # [10:20] * Joins: Necrathex (~bleptop@g199099.upc-g.chello.nl)
  396. # [10:20] <annevk> e.g. 302 BLAHDIEBLAH\n\nLocation: somewhereelse
  397. # [10:21] <annevk> euh \r\n but you get the idea
  398. # [10:21] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  399. # [10:21] <annevk> it's low-level but allows people to implement everything they want
  400. # [10:22] * Quits: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  401. # [10:23] <virtuelv> annevk: are there any security implications?
  402. # [10:23] <annevk> not as far as I know
  403. # [10:25] <virtuelv> off-site redirects and CORS?
  404. # [10:25] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Disconnected by services)
  405. # [10:25] * Joins: gavin__ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  406. # [10:25] <annevk> virtuelv, off-site redirects are required to carry CORS headers
  407. # [10:25] <annevk> already
  408. # [10:26] <virtuelv> so no additional implications. good
  409. # [10:26] <annevk> i.e. cross-origin redirect responses without CORS headers result in a network error today
  410. # [10:31] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl)
  411. # [10:36] * Quits: agektmr1 (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  412. # [10:38] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-82-166.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  413. # [10:42] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  414. # [10:45] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  415. # [10:46] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.228.87) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  416. # [10:47] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.5.117) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  417. # [10:48] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  418. # [10:50] * Joins: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  419. # [10:52] * Joins: akamike (~akamike@94-193-106-14.zone7.bethere.co.uk)
  420. # [10:52] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  421. # [10:53] * Quits: Peter` (~peter@nishino.lvp-media.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  422. # [10:54] * Joins: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.5.117)
  423. # [10:54] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@193.34.167.64)
  424. # [10:55] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  425. # [10:55] * Joins: Phae (~Phae@gatekeeper.macmillan.co.uk)
  426. # [10:58] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.5.117) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  427. # [10:59] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  428. # [11:02] * Joins: yleaxeman (~karlgranl@153.110.137.33)
  429. # [11:02] * Quits: bobchao (~cctw@DHCP-21089.iis.sinica.edu.tw) (Quit: Leaving.)
  430. # [11:05] * Parts: yleaxeman (~karlgranl@153.110.137.33)
  431. # [11:06] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.184.129)
  432. # [11:07] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  433. # [11:08] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  434. # [11:11] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@cm-84.208.74.81.getinternet.no) (Quit: annevk)
  435. # [11:12] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net)
  436. # [11:13] * Joins: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.5.117)
  437. # [11:18] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.182.24)
  438. # [11:18] * Quits: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  439. # [11:21] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool86.cs.man.ac.uk)
  440. # [11:21] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  441. # [11:27] <jgraham> (btw whatwg.org seems to be down)
  442. # [11:27] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  443. # [11:30] * Quits: homata__ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  444. # [11:33] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  445. # [11:34] <hsivonen> jgraham: wfm
  446. # [11:35] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@188.188.99.57)
  447. # [11:37] <jgraham> Oh
  448. # [11:38] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  449. # [11:39] <jgraham> hsivonen: Fails for me from two different locations
  450. # [11:43] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2010JulSep/0000.html (Member-only)
  451. # [11:45] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@cm-84.208.74.81.getinternet.no)
  452. # [11:45] <annevk> hsivonen, wtf
  453. # [11:46] <annevk> must be some fatal misunderstanding
  454. # [11:46] <annevk> also sad why they make all kinds of assumptions instead of simply sending an email with the question
  455. # [11:47] * Quits: Peter` (~peter@193.34.167.64) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  456. # [11:47] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~henrik@80.199.116.190.static.peytz.dk)
  457. # [11:48] <jgraham> Yeah, WTF
  458. # [11:48] <gsnedders> Um, okay.
  459. # [11:48] <hsivonen> annevk: I wonder how many 'requirements' come about in a comparable way
  460. # [11:49] <hsivonen> but see also 0008
  461. # [11:54] <annevk> keep getting surprised
  462. # [11:57] * Quits: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  463. # [12:01] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@cm-84.208.74.81.getinternet.no) (Quit: annevk)
  464. # [12:05] <hsivonen> Why does WebKit trt to clone IE where IE disallows innerHTML setter?
  465. # [12:05] <hsivonen> when html5 makes it work on every html node
  466. # [12:05] <hsivonen> s/trt/try/
  467. # [12:08] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
  468. # [12:14] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-222-194.cnt.nerim.net)
  469. # [12:19] <micheil> morning Rik`
  470. # [12:23] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  471. # [12:28] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  472. # [12:28] <Rik`> hi micheil
  473. # [12:37] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  474. # [12:46] * Quits: sean` (~sean@h160089.upc-h.chello.nl) (Quit: Leaving)
  475. # [12:50] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@g199099.upc-g.chello.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  476. # [12:51] * Joins: Necrathex (~bleptop@g199099.upc-g.chello.nl)
  477. # [12:51] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  478. # [12:55] <annevk> hsivonen, do they still do that with the new HTML parser?
  479. # [13:04] * Joins: espadrine (~yannt@AMontsouris-157-1-130-212.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  480. # [13:04] <hsivonen> annevk: looks like it but I'm not sure
  481. # [13:12] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-82-166.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: The curfew tolls the knell of parting day... the plowman homeward plods his weary way)
  482. # [13:19] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@170-116.citynet.ftth.internl.net)
  483. # [13:23] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@188.188.99.57) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  484. # [13:27] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@188.188.99.57)
  485. # [13:29] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  486. # [13:46] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  487. # [14:00] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  488. # [14:01] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:2014:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7) (Quit: kennyluck)
  489. # [14:14] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
  490. # [14:18] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Quit: pesla)
  491. # [14:49] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@EM114-48-4-47.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  492. # [14:50] * Quits: hdhoang0 (~hdhoang@hdhoang.zahe.me) (Quit: Leaving.)
  493. # [14:53] * Joins: davidhund_ (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl)
  494. # [14:54] * Joins: oal (~oal@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net)
  495. # [14:55] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  496. # [14:55] * davidhund_ is now known as davidhund
  497. # [14:55] <annevk> xhr.followRedirects defined
  498. # [14:55] <annevk> including support in CORS
  499. # [14:57] * Joins: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  500. # [14:58] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  501. # [15:00] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@U017209.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  502. # [15:12] * Quits: oal (~oal@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  503. # [15:15] * Quits: peol (~peol@unaffiliated/peol) (Quit: Leaving)
  504. # [15:21] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~henrik@80.199.116.190.static.peytz.dk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  505. # [15:27] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163)
  506. # [15:33] * Quits: Peter` (~peter@170-116.citynet.ftth.internl.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  507. # [15:34] * Quits: Ankheg (~Miranda@fs91-201-3-30.dubna-net.ru) (Quit: Ankheg)
  508. # [15:35] * Joins: cyberix (twruottu@melkki.cs.helsinki.fi)
  509. # [15:38] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@170-116.citynet.ftth.internl.net)
  510. # [15:44] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@64.119.159.231)
  511. # [16:04] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  512. # [16:12] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: annevk)
  513. # [16:15] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  514. # [16:15] * Quits: riven` (~riven@53518387.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  515. # [16:19] * Quits: rimantas (~rimliu@lan-84-240-20-219.vln.skynet.lt) (Quit: Leaving)
  516. # [16:20] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  517. # [16:20] * Joins: riven (~riven@53518387.cable.casema.nl)
  518. # [16:26] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  519. # [16:28] * Joins: eric_carlson (~ericc@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feb1:5d30)
  520. # [16:28] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-169-0-56.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  521. # [16:29] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@dhcp-11-239.it.uu.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  522. # [16:33] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-140-7.catv.broadband.hu)
  523. # [16:36] * Joins: aho (~nya@fuld-4d00d74a.pool.mediaWays.net)
  524. # [16:42] * Joins: bobchao (~cctw@112.105.140.77)
  525. # [16:43] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.5.117) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  526. # [16:48] * Joins: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.4.58)
  527. # [16:50] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  528. # [16:53] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@188.188.99.57) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  529. # [16:54] * Quits: gavin__ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  530. # [16:54] * Quits: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  531. # [16:56] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool86.cs.man.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  532. # [16:58] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  533. # [16:59] * mamund_ is now known as mamund
  534. # [17:02] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Disconnected...)
  535. # [17:05] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@m83-185-26-211.cust.tele2.se)
  536. # [17:07] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.182.24) (Quit: bbl)
  537. # [17:17] * Joins: sean` (~Sean@84-106-110-173.cable.quicknet.nl)
  538. # [17:28] * Joins: Ankheg (~Ankheg@94.158.192.212)
  539. # [17:28] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  540. # [17:30] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  541. # [17:41] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  542. # [17:41] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@c-36d471d5.014-169-73746f28.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  543. # [17:41] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@c-36d471d5.014-169-73746f28.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Changing host)
  544. # [17:41] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  545. # [17:44] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  546. # [17:45] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: aroben)
  547. # [17:46] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-qvskafwgwrhjdkal)
  548. # [17:46] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  549. # [17:51] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl) (Quit: davidhund)
  550. # [17:52] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl)
  551. # [17:52] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: Leaving)
  552. # [17:53] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  553. # [17:53] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  554. # [17:56] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  555. # [18:04] * Joins: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison)
  556. # [18:05] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@m83-185-26-211.cust.tele2.se) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  557. # [18:07] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com)
  558. # [18:10] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  559. # [18:11] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-4-120-70.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  560. # [18:11] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-222-194.cnt.nerim.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  561. # [18:18] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  562. # [18:22] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  563. # [18:26] * Quits: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.159.231) (Remote host closed the connection)
  564. # [18:27] * Quits: akamike (~akamike@94-193-106-14.zone7.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: akamike)
  565. # [18:27] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  566. # [18:29] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-212-43.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  567. # [18:32] * Joins: seanoshea (~seanoshea@nat217.eye.fi)
  568. # [18:33] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-76-21-40-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  569. # [18:36] * Quits: Phae (~Phae@gatekeeper.macmillan.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving.)
  570. # [18:39] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@ip-213-49-114-20.dsl.scarlet.be)
  571. # [18:41] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@67.218.105.75)
  572. # [18:45] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-40-84.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  573. # [18:46] * Joins: oal (~oal@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net)
  574. # [18:51] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feb1:5d30) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  575. # [18:51] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.246.19.116)
  576. # [18:54] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0)
  577. # [18:58] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@ip-213-49-114-20.dsl.scarlet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
  578. # [18:59] * Quits: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving)
  579. # [19:00] * Joins: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.159.231)
  580. # [19:00] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~henrik@c83-249-67-60.bredband.comhem.se)
  581. # [19:03] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@m83-185-39-211.cust.tele2.se)
  582. # [19:05] * Joins: eric_carlson (~ericc@17.244.75.165)
  583. # [19:06] * Joins: jlebar_ (~jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-hnuospzrpnswoexi)
  584. # [19:06] * Quits: jlebar (~jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-tmmniqngoqutcogp) (Disconnected by services)
  585. # [19:06] * jlebar_ is now known as jlebar
  586. # [19:06] * Quits: KarlinTrouble (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  587. # [19:07] * Joins: jlebar_ (~jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-hiqdkmilmiutcrhl)
  588. # [19:11] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  589. # [19:13] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@ip-213-49-114-20.dsl.scarlet.be)
  590. # [19:18] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@67.218.105.75) (Remote host closed the connection)
  591. # [19:21] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-ckxrhglrffhmxndc)
  592. # [19:23] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-gcbojtivdregrlkg)
  593. # [19:27] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0) (Quit: mdelaney)
  594. # [19:32] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  595. # [19:39] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: brb)
  596. # [19:40] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~henrik@c83-249-67-60.bredband.comhem.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  597. # [19:44] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  598. # [19:47] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163)
  599. # [19:51] * Quits: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  600. # [19:53] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@17.244.75.165) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  601. # [20:08] * Joins: dpranke (~Adium@nat/google/x-xsbxkcnnbbolxlty)
  602. # [20:09] * Joins: gratz|home (~gratz@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust237.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  603. # [20:13] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@ip-213-49-114-20.dsl.scarlet.be) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  604. # [20:23] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@seg75-1-81-57-242-198.fbx.proxad.net)
  605. # [20:23] * Joins: eric_carlson (~ericc@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feb1:5d30)
  606. # [20:27] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-ogznzxpyuzxfdzas)
  607. # [20:34] * Quits: gratz|home (~gratz@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust237.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  608. # [20:41] * Quits: aroben|lunch (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  609. # [20:44] * Joins: nimbupani (~nimbupani@216.127.61.149)
  610. # [20:47] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~henrik@c83-249-67-60.bredband.comhem.se)
  611. # [20:47] <Hixie> should i just s/float/double/ ?
  612. # [20:47] <Hixie> people keep asking for changes along those lines?
  613. # [20:48] <micheil> float as in 1.5567633
  614. # [20:48] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@c-68-40-243-245.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
  615. # [20:48] <micheil> yeah?
  616. # [20:48] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@EM114-48-4-47.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  617. # [20:48] * Quits: sean` (~Sean@84-106-110-173.cable.quicknet.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  618. # [20:50] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@91.182.14.136)
  619. # [20:51] <Hixie> yeah
  620. # [20:52] <micheil> makes sense I guess
  621. # [20:52] <micheil> doesn't bother me either way
  622. # [20:53] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@EM111-188-34-247.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  623. # [20:55] <Philip`> What's the value in using float?
  624. # [20:55] <Hixie> no idea
  625. # [20:55] <Hixie> to be honest
  626. # [20:55] <Philip`> I assume the harm is that it doesn't match JS Numbers so you need rounding
  627. # [20:57] <Philip`> What APIs using floating point values?
  628. # [20:57] <Philip`> s/using/use/
  629. # [20:58] <Hixie> anything that uses floating point numbers except valueAsNumber
  630. # [20:59] <Hixie> except the latter is currently buggy because of http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9886
  631. # [20:59] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  632. # [20:59] <Hixie> i guess we'll change to double and see who complains
  633. # [21:00] <Hixie> all the canvas stuff is float
  634. # [21:01] * Joins: romeo_ (~romeo__@x1-6-00-02-44-60-6c-8e.k602.webspeed.dk)
  635. # [21:01] <MikeSmith> micheil: have you had a chance to try http://github.com/aredridel/html5 at all yet?
  636. # [21:01] <micheil> umm.. no
  637. # [21:01] <Hixie> Philip`: would there be a compat problem if i changed canvas s/float/double/?
  638. # [21:03] <Philip`> Hmm, there's some thing some Opera people mentioned
  639. # [21:03] * Philip` tries to find it
  640. # [21:05] <Philip`> CORE-32111
  641. # [21:05] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.14.136) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  642. # [21:06] * AryehGregor infers Opera probably uses JIRA
  643. # [21:07] <micheil> MikeSmith: I'll follow up in a min, just talking to someone about some audio stuff..
  644. # [21:07] <MikeSmith> micheil: no problem
  645. # [21:07] <Philip`> Hixie: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100818#l-737
  646. # [21:08] <MikeSmith> micheil: was just asking out of curiosity
  647. # [21:08] <Philip`> Hixie: (If you don't round to float then the value is too large and it throws)
  648. # [21:09] <micheil> MikeSmith: yeah, listening to a podcast about audio mixing, and then I managed to get talking to a rep from a company I'm looking at getting some gear from, which was pretty cool
  649. # [21:09] <MikeSmith> great
  650. # [21:09] <micheil> MikeSmith: as for the html5 parser..
  651. # [21:09] <Philip`> Hixie: (It could be made safe by not making drawImage throw exceptions (and treat things as transparent black) but I don't know whether that kind of behaviour change has other problems)
  652. # [21:10] <micheil> MikeSmith: if it uses JSDom, then it's probably going to be pretty good
  653. # [21:10] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah whether to fire an exception or not based on what you're dividing seems suboptimal
  654. # [21:11] <MikeSmith> micheil: cool, thanks… I'm just starting to take a look at some of this stuff today
  655. # [21:11] <micheil> MikeSmith: sure thing, doing node knockout?
  656. # [21:11] <MikeSmith> nope
  657. # [21:11] <MikeSmith> I lack the chops
  658. # [21:11] <MikeSmith> at this point
  659. # [21:12] <MikeSmith> looking forward to seeing the results though
  660. # [21:12] <hober> A bug in jsdom has been driving me crazy for weeks
  661. # [21:12] <MikeSmith> spectator sports
  662. # [21:12] <MikeSmith> hober: what kind of bug?
  663. # [21:13] <hober> setAttribute doesn't seem to work
  664. # [21:13] <hober> http://gist.github.com/551578
  665. # [21:14] <Hixie> Philip`: maybe i should say to round to whole pixels
  666. # [21:15] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@91.182.185.12)
  667. # [21:16] <Hixie> no that wouldn't work for svg inputs or something
  668. # [21:16] <Hixie> like that
  669. # [21:16] <Hixie> hmm
  670. # [21:16] <Philip`> Hixie: That would seem a bit weird since the canvas API currently never cares about pixels (except the (get|put)PixelData aberrations)
  671. # [21:16] <Hixie> yeah
  672. # [21:17] <Hixie> i'll just make it transparent black outside and see if people complain
  673. # [21:17] <hober> MikeSmith: it's entirely likely that I'm just doing something stupid, but I haven't been able to figure out what that might be
  674. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> Does anyone know how to get e-mail notification from the IE feedback thing? I haven't figured out if there's any way.
  675. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> Do they really expect me to check manually all the time?
  676. # [21:20] * MikeSmith looks through hobercode to see if he can find anything that looks funny
  677. # [21:20] <Philip`> AryehGregor: I remember getting emails from them automatically
  678. # [21:20] <Philip`> (on bugs that I filed)
  679. # [21:21] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  680. # [21:21] <AryehGregor> Maybe they got filed as spam.
  681. # [21:22] <AryehGregor> Or maybe something choked on the address I provided.
  682. # [21:23] <AryehGregor> Interesting, this site's security certificate is revoked. I wonder how that happened: https://profile.microsoft.com/RegSysProfileCenter/Error.aspx
  683. # [21:24] <AryehGregor> Actually, the same is true for all of https://profile.microsoft.com/. Nice.
  684. # [21:24] <AryehGregor> I like how Chrome refuses to give me *any* option *whatsoever* to continue.
  685. # [21:24] <AryehGregor> This kind of security theater is asinine, no real attacker with half a brain would use a bad certificate and pop up a scary warning.
  686. # [21:24] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0)
  687. # [21:25] <AryehGregor> Firefox doesn't pop up any warning at all . . .
  688. # [21:26] <Philip`> Maybe Google decided to revoke all of Microsoft's certificates for a laugh
  689. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> Also, editing my profile is completely and totally broken on Minefield/Linux.
  690. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> It has required drop-down fields that it gives me no options for.
  691. # [21:27] * Quits: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@seg75-1-81-57-242-198.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  692. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> I used to think that Microsoft was actually competent at programming and just got lazy due to lack of competition, but sometimes I have doubts.
  693. # [21:28] * Joins: jeremyselier_ (~Jeremy@seg75-1-81-57-242-198.fbx.proxad.net)
  694. # [21:29] <Hixie> AryehGregor: no real attacker with half a brain would use a bad certificate and pop up a scary warning, but if no scary warning popped up, they could just use any arbitrary certificate
  695. # [21:29] <AryehGregor> Like every time I use IE8, it prompts me about some inane thing I don't care about (not sure what), and the only "go away" option it gives is "Ask me later". Which it does. Forever.
  696. # [21:29] <Hixie> AryehGregor: so in this particular case, it's not security theatre
  697. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> Hixie, no, but you could just pop up a scary warning and allow easy clickthrough. Attackers still would be very unlikely to trigger that, so it's fine to allow reasonably easy clickthrough.
  698. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> Chrome in this case allowed no clickthrough *at all*.
  699. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> That's just stupid.
  700. # [21:30] <Hixie> people click through things without reading them
  701. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> Sure.
  702. # [21:30] <Hixie> so it wouldn't work
  703. # [21:30] <Hixie> didn't work
  704. # [21:30] <Hixie> anyway, lunch time, bbiab
  705. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> No, it would work fine. Because attackers are unlikely to ever trigger the error, since they can typically avoid it just as easily.
  706. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> So many users will just click through without reading, but that's okay, because it's almost certainly not an attack.
  707. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> The authors of this paper were unable to find a single case, ever, anywhere, where attackers used an invalid certificate: research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/cormac/papers/2009/SoLongAndNoThanks.pdf
  708. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> Hmm, looks like Chrome auto-http://-adding is buggy.
  709. # [21:32] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  710. # [21:33] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716])
  711. # [21:33] * AryehGregor registers and verifies his address, maybe didn't verify it before
  712. # [21:34] * Joins: sean` (~Sean@84-106-110-173.cable.quicknet.nl)
  713. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> Anyway, the point is, certificates are obnoxiously complicated and an innocuous error is overwhelmingly more likely than an actual attack. Even if there were a tiny number of attacks, the inconvenience it causes is surely not even close to worth it.
  714. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> The concern should become basically obsolete with STS, anyway, when all e-commerce and other important sites switch to using that.
  715. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Since that mandates hard failure, and actually closes up the gaping hole of HTTP redirecting to HTTPS.
  716. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> Of course, once DNSSEC is deployed, it will be very simple: use the cert from DNS no matter what, and if there's an error authenticating it, you can't even resolve the domain name, so people will fix it pretty quickly. :)
  717. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> SRP would be even better, though. That's insanely hard to get wrong, if you have a basic implementation. No certificates to juggle. And best of all, it completely kills phishing, which certificates can never do.
  718. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> But something like Account Manager is a prerequisite for that. Go Firefox!
  719. # [21:39] * AryehGregor checks channel stats to see if they have a stat for "talks to himself", and if anyone else is even in the running for that one
  720. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> Hixie and MikeSmith beat me.
  721. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> :(
  722. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Anyway, I tried arguing with the Chromium security mafia before, and they didn't listen to me, so I won't bother again.
  723. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> (I should say, the person who responded did respond in some detail to all of my points, but didn't back down even though the behavior in that case was clearly broken.)
  724. # [21:47] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-ogznzxpyuzxfdzas) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  725. # [21:47] <MikeSmith> hober: fwiw, I get same result as you for your test file
  726. # [21:47] <MikeSmith> in my environment
  727. # [21:49] * Joins: ako (~nya@fuld-4d00d5e0.pool.mediaWays.net)
  728. # [21:50] * Joins: chronos (~quassel@unaffiliated/chronos)
  729. # [21:50] <MikeSmith> that is, no attributes
  730. # [21:50] <MikeSmith> at all
  731. # [21:51] * Quits: aho (~nya@fuld-4d00d74a.pool.mediaWays.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  732. # [21:51] <hober> hmm
  733. # [21:52] <hober> well, kindly upvote http://github.com/tmpvar/jsdom/issues#issue/9 and hopefully tmpvar will fix it. :)
  734. # [21:52] <hober> I keep meaning to carve out some time to debug what jsdom is doing myself, but never manage to
  735. # [21:52] <MikeSmith> hober: maybe worth asking on #Node.js to see if anybody else has insight
  736. # [21:53] <hober> yeah, I've asked, and have been warnocked
  737. # [21:56] * Quits: espadrine (~yannt@AMontsouris-157-1-130-212.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  738. # [21:56] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-196-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  739. # [21:56] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-196-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  740. # [21:57] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@ppp-0-208.glas-b-1.access.uk.tiscali.com)
  741. # [22:00] <Philip`> Hixie: Did you intentionally change the drawImage behaviour without mentioning it in the commit message?
  742. # [22:00] <Philip`> (Seems like people might miss it)
  743. # [22:01] <Philip`> (Although, I suppose I should just update my test cases and they'll notice when they look into their failures)
  744. # [22:07] * Parts: Darxus (~darxus@panic.chaosreigns.com)
  745. # [22:08] * Quits: mihaip (~mihaip@nat/google/x-dracmdhwkptyrczw) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  746. # [22:08] * Joins: mihaip (~mihaip@nat/google/x-hycfwgrudpumfbms)
  747. # [22:09] * Joins: abarth (~abarth@c-67-169-42-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  748. # [22:09] * Joins: espadrine (~yannt@AMontsouris-157-1-84-80.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  749. # [22:11] <hober> MikeSmith: my impl of the html->atom algorithm fails pretty spectacularly when it can't create attributes, as I'm sure you can imagine
  750. # [22:11] <MikeSmith> heh
  751. # [22:14] * Joins: variable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable)
  752. # [22:15] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-jdalwyfxdrgoxyoo)
  753. # [22:17] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah
  754. # [22:40] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@ppp-0-208.glas-b-1.access.uk.tiscali.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  755. # [22:41] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@c-68-40-243-245.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) (Quit: getting a haircut, back when that's done)
  756. # [22:44] * Quits: othree (~othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  757. # [22:46] * Quits: Ankheg (~Ankheg@94.158.192.212) (Quit: Leaving.)
  758. # [23:00] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
  759. # [23:01] <MikeSmith> silly that github doesn't support display of HTML-formatted readme files
  760. # [23:01] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-ckxrhglrffhmxndc) (Remote host closed the connection)
  761. # [23:01] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.185.12) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  762. # [23:03] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-foypvjdfonnzayet)
  763. # [23:04] <AryehGregor> It would have to sanitize them.
  764. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> As the people in this room should know, sanitizing arbitrary HTML is quite nontrivial.
  765. # [23:06] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@m83-185-39-211.cust.tele2.se) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  766. # [23:07] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
  767. # [23:15] <hober> Why am I even having this conversation? (Re: Bug 10455) It's like talking to a brick wall.
  768. # [23:17] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-40-84.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  769. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> Talking to brick walls is much less stressful, since they don't talk back.
  770. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> Possibly more productive, too.
  771. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> I heartily recommend it, although walls made out of wood or sheetrock work fine too.
  772. # [23:24] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@c-68-40-243-245.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
  773. # [23:31] <jgraham> Hixie: I don't suppose you have the overwhelming desire to comment in the opera bug that Philip` mentioned earlier, so you?
  774. # [23:32] <jgraham> s/so/do/
  775. # [23:32] <jgraham> So that we don't fix to the old behaviour
  776. # [23:32] * jgraham can do it of course
  777. # [23:33] <Hixie> uri?
  778. # [23:34] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-qvskafwgwrhjdkal) (Quit: dglazkov)
  779. # [23:34] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@2620:0:1b00:1f08:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a)
  780. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> Do ex-employees keep access to Opera's bug tracker?
  781. # [23:39] * Joins: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-41-49.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  782. # [23:39] * Joins: drunknbass (~drunknbas@76.91.255.83)
  783. # [23:39] <Hixie> some non-employees have access
  784. # [23:39] <Hixie> to some parts of the bug tracker
  785. # [23:39] <Hixie> not a direct correlation to previous employee status
  786. # [23:42] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-212-43.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  787. # [23:43] <jgraham> CORE-32111
  788. # [23:43] <jgraham> So er https://bugs.opera.com/browse/CORE-32111
  789. # [23:45] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  790. # [23:45] * Joins: seanoshea_ (~seanoshea@nat217.eye.fi)
  791. # [23:45] * Quits: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  792. # [23:45] * Quits: irclogbot_ (~bot@li165-234.members.linode.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  793. # [23:46] * Joins: irclogbot_ (~bot@li165-234.members.linode.com)
  794. # [23:47] <jgraham> AryehGregor: See e.g. http://operawiki.info/TheElektrans
  795. # [23:48] * Quits: seanoshea (~seanoshea@nat217.eye.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  796. # [23:48] * seanoshea_ is now known as seanoshea
  797. # [23:49] <jgraham> Hixie: (URL above btw)
  798. # [23:49] <Hixie> jgraham: yes, i commented as soon as you pasted it :-)
  799. # [23:50] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.184.129) (Quit: .)
  800. # [23:52] * Quits: seanoshea (~seanoshea@nat217.eye.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  801. # [23:52] * Joins: seanoshea (~seanoshea@nat217.eye.fi)
  802. # [23:53] * Joins: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
  803. # [23:54] <jgraham> Hixie: Ah, wasn't sure if you had seen it :)
  804. # Session Close: Sat Aug 28 00:00:00 2010

The end :)