/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 03 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  33. # [00:59] <Philip`> http://code.google.com/edu/ajax/tutorials/intro-to-js.html
  34. # [00:59] <Philip`> http://code.google.com/edu/ajax/tutorials/samples/dhtmltest.html
  35. # [00:59] <Philip`> What century was this written in?
  36. # [01:00] <Philip`> At least they've been thoughtful enough to handle the case of browsers that don't implement document.getElementById
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  140. # [08:06] <annevk> yay for simplified HTML
  141. # [08:06] <annevk> euh, XBL
  142. # [08:06] <annevk> guess I should read that
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  154. # [08:50] <annevk> Hixie, do you care about oversights?
  155. # [08:50] <annevk> Hixie, e.g. XBLContentElement should be HTMLContentElement
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  158. # [08:55] <Hixie> annevk: yeah... mail me what you see
  159. # [08:55] <Hixie> annevk: i have like 200 e-mails of feedback I haven't yet looked at
  160. # [08:55] <Hixie> annevk: before i actually go and fix the problems i want to see how much people like the simplified stuff
  161. # [08:57] <annevk> yeah, I wonder if we can simplify it even more
  162. # [08:58] <Hixie> we definitely can, the question is can we simplify it more without losing use cases
  163. # [08:59] <annevk> fwiw, I like it, but I also liked the original
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  168. # [09:08] <Hixie> yeah
  169. # [09:09] <Hixie> the new one has some annoying problems
  170. # [09:09] <Hixie> problems which are why we didn't do it in html in the first place
  171. # [09:09] <Hixie> like you can't make a binding for <select>, say
  172. # [09:09] <Hixie> becaue <template> would always be "in body"
  173. # [09:10] <annevk> what if we made <template> act like a foreign land container except elements would still be in the HTML namespace?
  174. # [09:10] <annevk> or maybe do that for binding
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  182. # [09:28] <annevk> ooh
  183. # [09:28] <annevk> Ian Fette has not added versioning
  184. # [09:28] <annevk> it was just proposed by Greg Wilkins
  185. # [09:28] <annevk> pfew
  186. # [09:28] <zcorpan_> Hixie: you can keep the background color, it's the shadow that disturbs me
  187. # [09:28] <zcorpan_> where's this xbl simplified you guys are talking about?
  188. # [09:29] <annevk> on the interwebs
  189. # [09:29] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2006/xbl2/Overview.html
  190. # [09:30] <zcorpan_> Xenogamous? heh
  191. # [09:32] <hsivonen> ooh. ooh. XBL being edited again!
  192. # [09:33] <hsivonen> hooray
  193. # [09:34] <hsivonen> I like the yellow halo on :target
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  195. # [09:34] <annevk> hmm, he is supporting the Sec-WebSocket-Draft: 01 proposal
  196. # [09:35] <annevk> something like that just leaves everything wide open to be debated forever
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  199. # [09:44] <zcorpan_> wait does xbl now use the html parser?
  200. # [09:44] <nessy> has anyone implemented xbl yet?
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  202. # [09:48] <nessy> xbl2 that is
  203. # [09:48] <annevk> no
  204. # [09:48] <annevk> zcorpan_, that is the idea
  205. # [09:48] <annevk> zcorpan_, it would be integrated with HTML
  206. # [09:48] <zcorpan_> cool
  207. # [09:49] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2006/xbl2/Overview.html#editors-note
  208. # [09:49] <zcorpan_> yeah just read that
  209. # [09:51] <hsivonen> nice
  210. # [09:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: are you also going to make XBL2 not require any synchronous IO?
  211. # [09:52] <Hixie> annevk: then you couldn't just copy and paste HTML into a template, because (e.g.) implied tags wouldn't work
  212. # [09:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: loadBindingDocument() is no longer sync
  213. # [09:53] <Hixie> that was one of the changes... see the spec, there's a list of changes
  214. # [09:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: is all loading defined in terms of it?
  215. # [09:53] <Hixie> none of the other loading was ever synchronous, it just blocked parsing
  216. # [09:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: blocked parsing on arbitrary elements?
  217. # [09:53] <Hixie> not as far as i'm aware
  218. # [09:53] <Hixie> see the spec
  219. # [09:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: which elements can block parsing?
  220. # [09:54] <Hixie> none as far as i'm aware
  221. # [09:54] <Hixie> seriously, read the spec
  222. # [09:54] <Hixie> it's been years since i've been up to date with xbl
  223. # [09:55] <Hixie> and my changes were just me going once down the spec deleting text
  224. # [09:55] <hsivonen> last time I read it there was scary stuff
  225. # [09:55] <Hixie> it still is :-)
  226. # [09:55] <Hixie> though less so, since there's less stuff
  227. # [09:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: btw, "style sheet blocking scripts" is annoying
  228. # [09:56] <hsivonen> since "style sheet-blocking scripts" would mean totally the opposite
  229. # [09:57] <hsivonen> "style sheet that is blocking scripts" would be clearer
  230. # [09:57] <hsivonen> can't tell what AddStyleSheetBlockingScripts() adds
  231. # [09:59] <Hixie> file a bug
  232. # [10:00] <Hixie> i treat these terms as opaque personally
  233. # [10:00] <Hixie> i'd be equally happy calling them 0x000 0x001 0x002 0x003 etc
  234. # [10:00] <Hixie> sometimes coming up with terms is just a pain in the neck
  235. # [10:00] <Hixie> one of the worst cases being "value"
  236. # [10:00] <Hixie> which has about 4 different meanings just for the <input> element
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  238. # [10:04] <nessy> lol
  239. # [10:05] <nessy> getting terminology right is hard - and then you end up with a <summary> element ...
  240. # [10:05] <Ms2ger> Hixie, the next time people complain that HTML is hard to read, I'll point them at that comment :)
  241. # [10:05] <Hixie> heh
  242. # [10:06] <zcorpan_> where's the websocket -00 draft? or does someone know when it was generated?
  243. # [10:06] <Hixie> "you think this is hard to read? just think how bad I *could* have made it!"
  244. # [10:06] <annevk> Hixie, ah I see
  245. # [10:07] <Ms2ger> "Append 0x007 to 0x003 and return 0x000."
  246. # [10:07] <annevk> zcorpan_, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-hybi-thewebsocketprotocol-00
  247. # [10:07] <annevk> zcorpan_, http://tools.ietf.org/html/websocket lists various documents (substring search)
  248. # [10:08] <zcorpan_> thanks
  249. # [10:10] <Hixie> ok nn
  250. # [10:10] <Ms2ger> Also, Hixie, you should call it WebBL instead
  251. # [10:11] <annevk> hyatt vetoed WBL -- pronounced wibble
  252. # [10:12] <annevk> but if we make it a true part of HTML we should just get rid of XBL altogether, except in prose and funny examples
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  258. # [10:20] <hsivonen> Why did hyatt veto it? W is the new X.
  259. # [10:20] <annevk> dunno, was a long time ago
  260. # [10:20] <hsivonen> or rather, "Web" is the new X
  261. # [10:20] <annevk> prolly because he minted the name
  262. # [10:21] <hsivonen> WebBL
  263. # [10:21] <annevk> but it doesn't really matter if it's integrated with HTML
  264. # [10:21] <espadrine> And "Xenogamous" feels like a big joke!
  265. # [10:22] <annevk> what's wrong with jokes?
  266. # [10:23] <hsivonen> "HTML5 Bindings"
  267. # [10:23] <espadrine> Spices up the reading of the spec with laughter, no harm done...
  268. # [10:23] * Quits: gavin__ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  269. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> espadrine: X is the secret ingredident in the web-scale sauce
  270. # [10:24] <annevk> X is from generation X ;p
  271. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> I think XBL2 needs shards
  272. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> because shards make everything better
  273. # [10:25] <annevk> heh
  274. # [10:25] <espadrine> Shards are cutting-edge technology!
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  276. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> I've now replaced all my transaction support with shards
  277. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> because shards trump everything
  278. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> just as I am now systematically rewriting all my old crappy PHP apps with new crappy node.js ones
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  282. # [10:41] <annevk> Ms2ger, test runner does not work in Opera?
  283. # [10:42] <Ms2ger> It should
  284. # [10:42] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
  285. # [10:42] <Ms2ger> It might take a while, though
  286. # [10:42] <annevk> http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-range ?!
  287. # [10:42] <annevk> you should really make some kind of overview page :)
  288. # [10:43] <Ms2ger> annevk, http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/ :)
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  295. # [10:51] <jgraham> Ms2ger: It would be pretty nice if we could port your tests to use the same harness as all the other tests
  296. # [10:51] <Ms2ger> Is there a standard one now?
  297. # [10:52] <jgraham> "standard"
  298. # [10:52] <jgraham> it seems to be what we are using for the HTML testsuite at least
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  302. # [10:54] <jgraham> Ms2ger: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/9ae7a792e141/tests/resources/testharness.js
  303. # [10:54] <jgraham> I am responsible for the bugs and missing features in that harness
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  306. # [10:56] <Ms2ger> I'll look at it
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  312. # [11:13] <annevk> Ms2ger, fwiw, I'm planning to rewrite the DOM Core tests to use that harness as well
  313. # [11:14] <annevk> Ms2ger, it would remove a bunch of duplication and improve the error reporting significantly
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  320. # [11:40] <hsivonen> I wonder if parser-inserted scripts that have been moved to a new document should run with the window object of the new doc or with the window object of the old doc (for security)
  321. # [11:41] <hsivonen> whether the script is permitted to run makes sense to check in the context of the old doc
  322. # [11:42] <hsivonen> it seems iffy to execute anything in the context of something else
  323. # [11:42] <hsivonen> but IE9 PP executes in the context of the new document (if at all)
  324. # [11:43] <hsivonen> Chrome executes in the context of the old doc
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  326. # [11:47] <zcorpan_> "This also means that the script's global object is the outer browsing context's Window object, not the Window object inside the iframe." -- http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/the-end.html#scripts-that-modify-the-page-as-it-is-being-parsed
  327. # [11:48] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: yeah, but I'm doubting if that's a good idea in terms of security
  328. # [11:49] <zcorpan_> "Note: This isn't a security problem since the script that moves the div into the outer Document can only do so because the two Document object have the same origin."
  329. # [11:49] <hsivonen> can it be proven that if a script were permitted to run in the context of the parser-associated document, it's always OK to let it run in the context of another document if whatever moved it there was permitted the move it there?
  330. # [11:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: what if the two documents have different Content Security Policies or some other thingies that restrict things further than Same Origin?
  331. # [11:51] <annevk> what other things?
  332. # [11:51] <annevk> there doesn't seem much agreement on CSP yet either
  333. # [11:51] <zcorpan_> i don't know anything about CSP, so dunno
  334. # [11:51] <annevk> e.g. abarth thinks most of it is not needed
  335. # [11:51] <zcorpan_> i don't mind changing the spec though
  336. # [11:52] <hsivonen> I know next to nothing about CSP, so I have no opinion on whether it is needed. However, if we ship it, I don't want to be the person who made it not do what it was advertised to do.
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  343. # [12:30] <hsivonen> hmm. If I send email about the script evaluation context, where should I send it?
  344. # [12:30] <hsivonen> sending it to whatwg would exclude Microsoft
  345. # [12:31] <annevk> cc adrian?
  346. # [12:31] <hsivonen> but sending it to public-html would risk it getting lost among other emails
  347. # [12:31] <annevk> and Microsoft is on the WHATWG list
  348. # [12:31] <hsivonen> well, WHATWG list it is
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  351. # [12:36] <jgraham> s/about script evaluation context/with any technical feedback/ :(
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  355. # [12:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: did you examine Gecko or WebKit as a white box when speccing script execution?
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  365. # [13:43] <zcorpan_> smoke signal-based browser, would be cool
  366. # [13:43] * zcorpan_ is a bit behind on email
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  368. # [13:44] <jgraham> zcorpan_: ??
  369. # [13:45] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@77.241.105.164)
  370. # [13:46] <zcorpan_> an email from hixie from 29 july mentioned that browsers could be based on smoke signals
  371. # [13:47] <zcorpan_> Hixie: didn't whatwg emails have an archived-at header at some point?
  372. # [13:48] <hsivonen> the whatwg archives are sad. the charset sniffing limit had to grow mainly because it's too hard to get Dreamhost to fix their Apache
  373. # [13:49] <zcorpan_> from 512 to 1024?
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  375. # [13:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: yeah
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  377. # [13:59] <annevk> zcorpan_, no Archived-At header no
  378. # [13:59] <annevk> zcorpan_, I had this idea to make a script at some point, but that never happened
  379. # [14:00] <annevk> maybe we should apply for http://w3.markmail.org/
  380. # [14:00] <zcorpan_> i'd like whatwg emails to have archived-at (and a pony)
  381. # [14:00] <annevk> i'd like them to have stable URLs for starters
  382. # [14:02] <annevk> smaug____, yt?
  383. # [14:03] <smaug____> yes
  384. # [14:03] <annevk> smaug____, Firefox does not associate form controls not in the DOM with a form attribute with forms in the Document
  385. # [14:03] <annevk> smaug____, the spec does require that afaict
  386. # [14:03] <smaug____> volkmar: ^^
  387. # [14:04] <annevk> e.g. you do input = document.createElement("input"); input.form = "x"; and in the Document you have <form id=x>; input.form should give you that form
  388. # [14:04] <smaug____> annevk: do you know why the draft requires that?
  389. # [14:04] <annevk> there's just no check for in Documentness
  390. # [14:05] <smaug____> annevk: also, does form.element contain the created element?
  391. # [14:05] <smaug____> apparently no
  392. # [14:05] <smaug____> so the API is rather strange
  393. # [14:06] <annevk> maybe email the list?
  394. # [14:06] <annevk> i gotta go
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  398. # [14:23] <espadrine> Am I wrong, or doesn't the latest Minefield have insertAdjacentHTML built-in?
  399. # [14:24] <jgraham> Too many negatives error
  400. # [14:24] <jgraham> iirc gecko has previously not supported insertAdjacentHTML
  401. # [14:24] <jgraham> I don't know if you are saying that now it does or that it still doesn't
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  405. # [14:25] <espadrine> jgraham: sorry, I meant 'I am surprised that it still doesn't'!
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  408. # [14:28] <smaug____> espadrine: you should file a bug report
  409. # [14:29] <espadrine> Maybe there is one already? I'm looking it up.
  410. # [14:29] <smaug____> there isn't
  411. # [14:29] <smaug____> I just looked at
  412. # [14:29] <smaug____> or, there isn't valid one
  413. # [14:29] <smaug____> because insertAdjacentHTML used to be IE only thing
  414. # [14:29] <smaug____> based on lack of bug reports it seems like insertAdjacentHTML is very rarely used
  415. # [14:30] <smaug____> or that js libraries have some helper methods for gecko
  416. # [14:33] <zcorpan_> regarding websrt, we could use innerHTML but say that conforming content is only allowed to use <b> <i> and <ruby> (for non-web reusability)
  417. # [14:33] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Would you realisticly expect that to have any effect?
  418. # [14:37] <zcorpan_> maybe not
  419. # [14:38] <zcorpan_> but with the current setup people will just use the metadata kind if they want to use other elements, which isn't much better
  420. # [14:38] <zcorpan_> we can always extend the list of allowed elements when we see what people use
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  423. # [14:44] <hsivonen> when Web content says the encoding is EUC-JP or ISO-2022-JP, are browsers supposed to use the ISO mapping tables or the tables that have been modified for Windows-31J as when Web content says Shift_JIS?
  424. # [14:48] <cyberix> I wrote a simple application which is able to send some binary data as the body of an http POST request
  425. # [14:48] <hsivonen> smaug____: recently, I've seen Prototype, Firebug and Outlook Web App work around the lack of insertAdjacentHTML by using createContextualFragment
  426. # [14:48] <cyberix> http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/twruottu/testi/bpost.html
  427. # [14:48] <cyberix> It requires the user to download a file and upload it back by dragging it back to the browser
  428. # [14:48] <cyberix> but this is afaik the best way to do this at the moment
  429. # [14:48] <hsivonen> which is sad, because we could optimize insertAdjacentHTML the same way innerHTML is now optimized
  430. # [14:49] <hsivonen> and createContextualFragment confuses people
  431. # [14:49] <hsivonen> since the context is passed in a goofy way
  432. # [14:49] <hsivonen> because the method is on Range and not on Element
  433. # [14:52] <jgraham> Latest message to HyBi is interesting. Hasn't made it to the archives yet but might be http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg04029.html eventually
  434. # [14:52] <jgraham> Mozilla plan to either not ship in Fx4 or ship in "a clearly for-experiment-only namespace"
  435. # [14:53] <jgraham> Dunno quite what that means
  436. # [14:53] <jgraham> Maybe add "moz" to the front of lots of the API bits
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  438. # [14:53] <jgraham> Although ironically the API is the one thing that is likely to be stable
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  440. # [15:02] <jgraham> (message is in the archives now)
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  442. # [15:10] <hsivonen> speaking of createContextualFragment, Opera might want to clone https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=585819
  443. # [15:22] <espadrine> We will have neither insertAdjacentHTML nor outerHTML in Fx4.
  444. # [15:22] <espadrine> Johnny Stenback says, 'This won't happen for Firefox 4 unless someone steps up to own this. Not blocking.'
  445. # [15:22] <hsivonen> bug# ?
  446. # [15:22] <espadrine> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92264
  447. # [15:22] <hsivonen> thanks
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  510. # [18:39] <Philip`> http://www.itworldcanada.com/news/opinion-disband-the-itu-t-ipv6-group/141380-pg1 - hooray for XML
  511. # [18:39] <Philip`> (In Opera I get a parse error)
  512. # [18:39] <Philip`> (Hmm, looks like it's text/html in Firefox)
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  516. # [19:00] <cyberix> It seems that xhr2.send(Blob) has been replaced with xhr2.send(ByteArray)
  517. # [19:00] <cyberix> has ByteArray been defined somewhere?
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  530. # [19:29] <espadrine> Do we have a constructor for the video element?
  531. # [19:30] <espadrine> I don't see it in the spec, and it seems unimplemented...
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  533. # [19:30] <Philip`> espadrine: document.createElement('video')
  534. # [19:30] <Philip`> I don't believe there's an equivalent of "new Audio()"
  535. # [19:30] <tabatkins> There isn't.
  536. # [19:30] <espadrine> Ah, ok.
  537. # [19:31] <espadrine> Do you know why?
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  539. # [19:31] <Philip`> I assume because it's useful to play audio without doing any DOM interaction
  540. # [19:31] <Philip`> whereas there's no point using video unless you put it in the DOM
  541. # [19:32] <Philip`> (Useful for things like sound effects in games)
  542. # [19:32] <espadrine> I admit that video is less often scripted...
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  557. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> Isn't http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/HTML5/DOMCapabilities/Default.html the kind of test that IE developers have publicly said is not a reasonable kind of test because it doesn't test whether all the details of the implementation are correct?
  558. # [20:22] <annevk> you should probably add a link for "have publicly said"
  559. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> I would, but I'm lazy.
  560. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> It was in some post where they were saying how amazing it was that they passed 100% of the tests they wrote for the W3C, and were trying to downplay the important of sites like html5test.com.
  561. # [20:23] <annevk> cyberix, there's send(Blob)
  562. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> Pretty sure it was in an actual blog post, might have been in a [MSFT] comment.
  563. # [20:23] <annevk> oh yeah
  564. # [20:24] <annevk> I recall something like that
  565. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> It's a totally legitimate point, of course. Tests like Acid3 are pretty broken.
  566. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> They encourage vendors to implement some bare minimum of functionality that makes the test pass but isn't actually useful.
  567. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> Which breaks feature-testing and is evil.
  568. # [20:26] <annevk> Acid3 has taught us a bunch of things
  569. # [20:26] <annevk> I hope
  570. # [20:26] <Hixie> yes
  571. # [20:27] <Hixie> acid tests in general are helpful (would microsoft have even tried to do DOM Events without Acid3?), I think, but they are certainly only one part of a balanced diet
  572. # [20:30] <annevk> agreed, with lessons I meant testing for things that actually ought to have been removed from the platform (or changed drastically)
  573. # [20:31] <annevk> still a bit too much "unimplemented specs are nevertheless correct"
  574. # [20:31] <annevk> but I think we have a decent set of people now that will ensure that will not happen again that fast
  575. # [20:33] <Hixie> yeah i made a bunch of mistakes like that in acid3
  576. # [20:33] <Hixie> i have a file somewhere listing my mistakes so i can remember them for acid4 :-)
  577. # [20:33] <annevk> heh, I should do that too
  578. # [20:37] <volkmar> annevk: hey, about your discussion with smaug later
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  580. # [20:38] <volkmar> you were talking about form elements association
  581. # [20:38] <volkmar> don't understand whit was the problem
  582. # [20:39] <smaug____> volkmar: and I commented that it is rather
  583. # [20:39] <smaug____> er
  584. # [20:39] <volkmar> ?
  585. # [20:40] <smaug____> volkmar: based on the draft, if form attribute is set, the owner form should point to the form element even if the input element isn't in document
  586. # [20:41] <volkmar> that sounds insane
  587. # [20:41] <smaug____> volkmar: and I commented that it is rather strange API, that not-in-document element points to form, but .elements in form don't point to that
  588. # [20:42] <volkmar> and that's inconsistant
  589. # [20:42] <volkmar> label @for attribute required the element to be in the same document
  590. # [20:42] <annevk> that's how it works in Opera anyway
  591. # [20:43] <annevk> same document is that ownerdocument wise?
  592. # [20:44] <annevk> anyways, i don't mind the spec changing
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  594. # [20:47] <volkmar> smaug____: did you find the part in the spec saying that .form should return the form element even if not in document ?
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  596. # [20:47] <smaug____> volkmar: it is somewhere there
  597. # [20:47] <smaug____> not said explicitly
  598. # [20:49] <smaug____> volkmar: if you follow the steps to set form owner, you notice that the element doesn't need to be in document
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  601. # [20:57] <volkmar> smaug____: can't found it, i'm obviously too stupid :(
  602. # [20:58] <smaug____> volkmar: somewhere here http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#attr-fae-form
  603. # [20:59] <volkmar> yeah, i was looking to that
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  632. # [22:40] * GPHemsley wonders what browser vendor is not on the WHATWG list
  633. # [22:40] <Hixie> Microsoft
  634. # [22:41] <Hixie> is probably the one being talked about
  635. # [22:41] <Hixie> (there's of course also lots of smaller players who aren't on the list)
  636. # [22:42] <GPHemsley> right... but isn't Microsoft on the list?
  637. # [22:42] <GPHemsley> I recall reading stuff from them once
  638. # [22:42] <Hixie> microsoft policy is not to participate on the whatwg list
  639. # [22:42] <Hixie> they do have some people who are subscribed and some have participated in the past
  640. # [22:42] <Hixie> but they fear the lack of a patent policy
  641. # [22:42] <Hixie> (not an entirely unreasonable position)
  642. # [22:43] <GPHemsley> for the entirety of the WHATWG work?
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  644. # [22:44] <Hixie> not sure what you're asking
  645. # [22:45] <GPHemsley> I was trying to clarify your point about the lack of a patent policy
  646. # [22:46] <Hixie> The concern that they have conveyed to me is regarding the lack of a patent policy of any kind with respect to the WHATWG effort.
  647. # [22:46] <Hixie> it's a concern that is mostly academic at this point since most of the content is also published by the W3C under their patent policy.
  648. # [23:02] <AryehGregor> I assume lawyers won't like the "most".
  649. # [23:06] <Hixie> that's not really a whatwg-specific problem. e.g. none of the WebSocket protocol stuff at the IETF is under a patent policy worth anything.
  650. # [23:06] <Hixie> but yes
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  652. # [23:09] <GPHemsley> and what exactly the fear of?
  653. # [23:09] <GPHemsley> +is
  654. # [23:10] <Hixie> someone participating in the project (e.g. google) patenting something that then becomes part of the spec, getting microsoft to implement it, and then suing for patent infringement
  655. # [23:10] <GPHemsley> ah
  656. # [23:10] <GPHemsley> yeah, that's scary
  657. # [23:10] <GPHemsley> </3 software patents
  658. # [23:10] <Hixie> not really
  659. # [23:10] <Hixie> but it's something the w3c patent policy solves
  660. # [23:10] <GPHemsley> what's it say?
  661. # [23:11] <GPHemsley> and, more importantly, why doesn't WHATWG have one?
  662. # [23:11] <Hixie> that you can't sue other participants, basically
  663. # [23:11] <Hixie> making a patent policy is years of lawyer work
  664. # [23:11] <Hixie> and nobody has cared enough to do the work
  665. # [23:11] <GPHemsley> why not just "nothing here is patentable"
  666. # [23:11] <GPHemsley> boom, done
  667. # [23:11] <Hixie> what would that do
  668. # [23:11] <GPHemsley> no idea
  669. # [23:11] <GPHemsley> ;)
  670. # [23:12] <Hixie> the real scary imho is patents ending up in the hands of patent trolls
  671. # [23:12] <Hixie> and there ain't nothing a patent policy can do about that
  672. # [23:12] <AryehGregor> Who would agree to a WHATWG patent policy? Why would they?
  673. # [23:12] <AryehGregor> All HTMLWG members have to agree to the W3C one as a condition of participation.
  674. # [23:12] <Hixie> presumably the same people who agree to the w3c one (anyone who participates)
  675. # [23:13] <GPHemsley> Just saw this: @ConanOBrien Facebook is trying to trademark the word "Face". I am going to trademark the word "aceboo", and then wait for the dollars to roll in.
  676. # [23:13] <Hixie> (the reason the scenario listed above isn't scary is that all the people who would get sued have just as many patents of their own and would just counter-sue)
  677. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> So the whatwg list would no longer be open to immediate subscription, you'd need approval first?
  678. # [23:13] <Hixie> AryehGregor: if what occured?
  679. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> If you required a patent policy agreement from all contributors?
  680. # [23:14] <AryehGregor> Otherwise organizations could just have their employees participate and sign away all of their (the employee's) patents, which would be none.
  681. # [23:14] <AryehGregor> So you'd need to ask them who their employer is, at a minimum.
  682. # [23:14] <Hixie> if we request that people agree to something before they could post, then it seems tautological that they could indeed not post until they had agreed
  683. # [23:14] <GPHemsley> which is silly
  684. # [23:14] <Hixie> but i don't think anyone has proposed that so far
  685. # [23:14] <Hixie> since nobody has done any of the lawyery work
  686. # [23:15] <AryehGregor> But just asking them to agree isn't enough, you have to get their employer to agree.
  687. # [23:15] <AryehGregor> Or else it's kind of meaningless.
  688. # [23:15] <AryehGregor> Their agreement isn't binding on their employer.
  689. # [23:15] <GPHemsley> couldn't the patent policy be a stipulation of the standard, rather than the working group?
  690. # [23:16] <Hixie> GPHemsley: i don't know what that would mean
  691. # [23:16] <GPHemsley> yeah, I don't either... just thinking out loud
  692. # [23:16] <Hixie> but in general i recommend getting a law degree in patent law before trying to think about this stuff :-)
  693. # [23:16] <GPHemsley> :P
  694. # [23:16] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@92.86.242.213) (Quit: .)
  695. # [23:17] <GPHemsley> yeah... everything I can think of just goes back to </3 software patents
  696. # [23:18] <GPHemsley> because it's really rather stupid for us all to be working together for a common goal, and then have somebody come out of nowhere and say "hahaha! you implemented the agreed-upon standard, which I secretly have a patent to! diediedie"
  697. # [23:19] <GPHemsley> that's worse than just trying to reverse engineer things 100 times
  698. # [23:21] <AryehGregor> I had an idea that a company like Google could use to kill software patents. I recently summarized it here: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2010/08/google_vs_oracl.html#c2727630
  699. # [23:21] <Hixie> abarth: i don't understand your e-mail (re xbl2)
  700. # [23:21] <AryehGregor> I have some vague idea that maybe I could try pestering important people to listen to it, but I'm too lazy.
  701. # [23:22] <abarth> Hixie: xbl looks like a templating system
  702. # [23:22] <abarth> Hixie: where you supply a bunch of markup and script
  703. # [23:22] <abarth> and then instantiate the template with user-provided values
  704. # [23:22] <Hixie> AryehGregor: wouldn't that run afoul of the laws against, you know, the mafia
  705. # [23:22] <Hixie> abarth: i guess it vaguely is similar to such a concept
  706. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I dunno, why? The mafia breaks people's kneecaps, you're just enforcing your patents. And it's hardly anticompetitive, you're allowing anyone to join who wants to.
  707. # [23:23] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.39.131) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  708. # [23:23] <abarth> Hixie: at a quick glance, i didn't see how you instantate the template
  709. # [23:23] <Hixie> AryehGregor: well i'm no lawyer, so i have no idea
  710. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> Me either!
  711. # [23:23] * aroben__ is now known as aroben
  712. # [23:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: AFAICT, RICO isn't being enforced against all operations in the U.S. that to a lay person look like protection rackets :-(
  713. # [23:24] <abarth> Hixie: there are two features that would be desirable from a security point of view
  714. # [23:24] <abarth> Hixie: 1) the ability to limit what can put put into one of the holes in the template
  715. # [23:24] <abarth> (e.g., text only, or passive content only, etc)
  716. # [23:25] <abarth> 2) the ability to supply content for the template in a way that's hard to XSS yourself
  717. # [23:26] <Hixie> abarth: you don't instantiate xbl bindings... they are just added to existing dom nodes
  718. # [23:26] <Hixie> abarth: there are no nodes created that aren't already in the dom
  719. # [23:26] <Hixie> abarth: all it does is slightly transform the dom for the purposes of css
  720. # [23:27] <abarth> i see
  721. # [23:27] <hsivonen> abarth: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/move-during-parse-parent.html suggests WebKit runs parser-inserted scripts in the context of the parser's document
  722. # [23:27] <hsivonen> (crashes Chrome and Chromium content process on reload))
  723. # [23:27] <abarth> Hixie: in the first example in the intro:
  724. # [23:27] <abarth> <div id="wrapper">
  725. # [23:27] <abarth> <div id="col2"><content includes=".nav"></div>
  726. # [23:27] <abarth> <div id="col1"><content includes=".main"></div>
  727. # [23:27] <abarth> </div>
  728. # [23:27] <abarth> it looks like <content> is a placeholder
  729. # [23:27] <abarth> that gets filled with something
  730. # [23:28] <abarth> you're saying it's a dom node that already exists in your document
  731. # [23:28] <abarth> hsivonen: crashes are bad :)
  732. # [23:28] <Hixie> abarth: it doesn't get filled in, it's just that that is where the dom nodes get grafted in when creating the final flattened tree
  733. # [23:28] <Hixie> abarth: the dom nodes are already there though, yeah
  734. # [23:29] <Hixie> abarth: this is a pure-dom technology, nothing happens at the markup level
  735. # [23:29] <hsivonen> abarth: my point being that I don't believe WebKit does what I called #3 in my whatwg email
  736. # [23:29] <hsivonen> re: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-September/028357.html
  737. # [23:30] <Hixie> ooh, jgraham just updated his script
  738. # [23:30] <Hixie> oh i guess it could have happened any time in the last 4 days
  739. # [23:30] <Hixie> hm, or not
  740. # [23:30] <Hixie> i'm confused
  741. # [23:30] <Hixie> nevermind
  742. # [23:31] <abarth> Hixie: ok, that's slightly unfortunate, but I guess we'll have to solve XSS another way then :)
  743. # [23:33] * Joins: hdhoang (~hdhoang@hdhoang.zahe.me)
  744. # [23:36] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.72.112)
  745. # [23:36] <abarth> hsivonen: nice test case
  746. # [23:36] * Joins: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison)
  747. # [23:37] <abarth> hsivonen: webkit is very confused by that test case
  748. # [23:37] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-gluzafnvamvypgkn)
  749. # [23:38] <Hixie> abarth: seems very fortunate to me, it means i don't introduce any new bugs :-)
  750. # [23:39] <hsivonen> abarth: I find it odd that you and jgraham characterize the test case as "nice" :-)
  751. # [23:39] <abarth> Hixie: it should be the case that a good client-side templating system would make XSS very uncommon
  752. # [23:40] <abarth> Hixie: the unfortunate part is to build all this machinery and then not solve XSS, since it's very nearby
  753. # [23:41] <Hixie> this is not a client-side templating system
  754. # [23:41] <Hixie> so that's ok :-)
  755. # [23:42] <hsivonen> I expect we won't be able to introduce One True templating system
  756. # [23:42] <hsivonen> enough people will want a different one and not use the safe one
  757. # [23:43] <hsivonen> most people aren't using XSS-resilient server-side templating systems
  758. # [23:43] * Quits: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  759. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> I've heard Facebook has a nice hack to PHP that does that.
  760. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> You can do XML literals, and interpolation into them automatically escapes the variables.
  761. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> So like: echo <p>$msg</p>;
  762. # [23:45] <ap> Hixie: I have a Web page here that expects window.elementID to not find an element in strict mode (so it works in shipping Firefox). WebKit matches HTML5 in HTML documents, so it misbehaves on this page. Is a single example enough to change this part in HTML5 to match Firefox 3?
  763. # [23:45] <ap> Hixie: as a related issue, WebKit doesn't allow window.elementID for XHTML
  764. # [23:47] <Ms2ger> As a relates issue, WebKit seems to have way too many differences between HTML and XHTML
  765. # [23:48] <Hixie> ap: what does IE do?
  766. # [23:49] <ap> Hixie: I didn't test its strict mode, I can do that now
  767. # [23:49] <Hixie> ap: that would be interesting. Also, whether the original page works in IE, and why.
  768. # [23:50] <ap> Hixie: oh, I don't need to test. accessing the element works even in strict mode, which is how they test that it's IE
  769. # [23:50] <Hixie> oh heh
  770. # [23:50] <ap> Hixie: and then they use IE behaviors
  771. # [23:51] <Hixie> my expectation would be that there are pages that depend on both behaviours, and that we're screwed either way.
  772. # [23:52] <Hixie> so i'd rather keep the number of html/xhtml and quirk/noquirk differences as low as possible
  773. # [23:53] <ap> Hixie: this is also a pretty ugly behavior - and we know that we can live without it for the most part, given that Firefox works
  774. # [23:53] <ap> Hixie: with some properties coming from name and some from id, there is a lot of potential for mistakes, as well as other browser differences affecting results
  775. # [23:54] <ap> Hixie: having said that, we've been asked to support window.elementID in XHTML before
  776. # [23:55] <Hixie> i'm no fan of this behaviour, don't get me wrong :-)
  777. # [23:56] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@m83-185-18-21.cust.tele2.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  778. # Session Close: Sat Sep 04 00:00:00 2010

The end :)