/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 04 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  4. # [00:01] <Ms2ger> Hixie, now I was seriously thinking you loved it!
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  20. # [01:34] <volkmar> Hixie: about the input type change algorithm (for value management)
  21. # [01:35] <volkmar> it looks like we loose the value with type='file'
  22. # [01:35] <volkmar> if input.type='text', .value='foo', .type='file', .value would be ""
  23. # [01:35] <volkmar> because we don't save the value to the content attribute when switching to a file type
  24. # [01:36] <volkmar> why not doing that?
  25. # [01:37] <tabatkins> volkmar: Because you could just script-fill the value of the type=text with a filepath, then change it to type=file. If the input is visually hidden, it can be smuggled inside another form, so the user ends up accidentally submitting files from their hard drive they didn't know about.
  26. # [01:37] * tabatkins is now known as TabAtkins
  27. # [01:37] <Hixie> the <input type=file> always ignored the /value/
  28. # [01:38] <volkmar> TabAtkins: hmmm, not what i meant
  29. # [01:38] <Hixie> volkmar: .value would still be "" even if we saved the /value/ to the value="" content attribute
  30. # [01:38] <Hixie> volkmar: because .value for type=file has nothing to do with either the /value/ concept or the value="" attribute
  31. # [01:38] <volkmar> Hixie: yes, the problem is if i go back to <input type='text'> i loose the previous value
  32. # [01:38] <Hixie> so?
  33. # [01:39] <volkmar> why not saving the value to the content attribute when we change teh type to 'file' considering 'file' shouldn't use it but it will be re-used if the type is changed to something else
  34. # [01:39] <Hixie> why bother?
  35. # [01:40] <Hixie> what's the use case?
  36. # [01:40] <Hixie> why does it matter?
  37. # [01:40] <volkmar> Hixie: it doesn't really matter, just sound weird than it's required for default and default_on and not filename
  38. # [01:41] * Hixie points to the topic
  39. # [01:41] <Hixie> if that's the only thing that sounds weird about the forms model in HTML, you haven't looked closely :-P
  40. # [01:41] <Hixie> personally I think what's weird is that we have to change things at all
  41. # [01:41] <Hixie> not that it gets reset to ""
  42. # [01:42] <Hixie> unfortunately if we don't reset things, it breaks backcompat
  43. # [01:42] <volkmar> yeah...
  44. # [01:42] <Hixie> anyway if you think it should change, file a bug explaining why
  45. # [01:42] <Hixie> i don't make changes based on irc discussions :-)
  46. # [01:42] <Hixie> at least not while i'm making other changes :-)
  47. # [01:43] <volkmar> Hixie: i don't think it _should_ be changed, just wondering if there were a reason
  48. # [01:43] <volkmar> i don't really care actually
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  50. # [01:43] <Hixie> no reason particularly
  51. # [01:43] <Hixie> it just didn't seem to matter for compat
  52. # [01:43] <Hixie> bz and i looked at what seemed to matter and just changed that
  53. # [01:43] <volkmar> fine then
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  153. # [08:28] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  154. # [08:28] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  193. # [10:23] <annevk> really: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=5413&to=5414 :/
  194. # [10:23] <annevk> charset overrides is one of the worst ideas anyone ever came up with
  195. # [10:23] <annevk> and has given us security issues (and is still giving them to anyone with UTF-7 support)
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  219. # [11:25] <Philip`> If someone wants to argue about completeness of rel registries, maybe they should look at which of the common values in http://philip.html5.org/data/rel-rev-200904.txt are in each registry
  220. # [11:26] <Philip`> I expect someone who's using the registry to either understand a random web document or avoid collisions when choosing their own names will care much more about rel="edituri" than about rel="child"
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  223. # [11:29] <espadrine> What are those french 'rel's at the end of the page?
  224. # [11:35] <Philip`> espadrine: People mixing up rel with src, I expect
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  230. # [11:39] <Philip`> espadrine: http://www.tourdumonde.over-blog.com/photo-257570-saopaulo-placadese-cathedrale_jpg.html
  231. # [11:39] <Philip`> <img src="http://img.over-blog.com/630x470-000000/0/44/26/71//09-bresil/saopaulo-placadese-cathedrale.jpg" alt="saopaulo-placadese-cathedrale.jpg" class="played" rel="0/44/26/71//09-bresil/saopaulo-placadese-cathedrale.jpg" height="470" width="630" />
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  240. # [12:08] <Hixie> annevk: i'm open to better ideas
  241. # [12:09] <annevk> allow the HTTP charset parameter?
  242. # [12:09] <annevk> I guess that is not very author friendly
  243. # [12:10] <annevk> though how about marking this as a v2 feature?
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  245. # [12:10] <annevk> we'll deploy <track>, see how it works out in the first year and if enough problems occur we go for it
  246. # [12:11] <annevk> cause people will likely need to move SRT files around anyway and maybe making the adjustments is easy enough for them
  247. # [12:11] <Hixie> if the idea is to be compatible with legacy SRT, MIME types and UTF-8 only are both failures
  248. # [12:11] <Hixie> if it's not, we don't need the override, indeed
  249. # [12:12] <Hixie> people seemed pretty much in favour of the former though (haven't yet sent my reply to that thread, working on it still)
  250. # [12:13] <annevk> well yeah, it's tricky -- i want to be compatible too but I also do not want to introduce more features such as charset
  251. # [12:14] <Hixie> if you can think of an attack vector, mail the list and i'll remove it
  252. # [12:14] <Hixie> security trumps compatibility
  253. # [12:14] <Hixie> bed time now
  254. # [12:14] <Hixie> nn
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  291. # [14:06] <annevk> Ms2ger, yo, where is PARSE_ERR from?
  292. # [14:06] <annevk> is that DOM L&S? if so, isn't that obsolete?
  293. # [14:07] <Ms2ger> Yes/Dunno
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  295. # [14:07] <annevk> k, I think it should be
  296. # [14:07] <annevk> but maybe something else uses PARSE_ERR too... hmm
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  299. # [14:09] <Dashiva> My google only finds L&S, and the reference in HTML5
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  301. # [14:09] <annevk> HTML5 mentions them?
  302. # [14:10] <annevk> figures
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  304. # [14:10] <annevk> I believe the WHATWG wiki does too
  305. # [14:10] <annevk> guess we just tried to be complete
  306. # [14:10] <Ms2ger> I'm blaming you, annevk
  307. # [14:10] <annevk> Ms2ger, what is this "tempTests" in DOMImpl...createDocument..exceptions? rewriting that test now
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  309. # [14:10] <Ms2ger> http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Exception_Codes&diff=next&oldid=2625
  310. # [14:10] <annevk> Ms2ger, win
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  312. # [14:11] <annevk> i'll annotate the wiki with "should be obsolete"
  313. # [14:12] <Ms2ger> Does any ua have them?
  314. # [14:12] <annevk> opera might
  315. # [14:12] <annevk> but i'm campaigning for nuking our (i believe somewhat broken) dom ls support
  316. # [14:12] <annevk> ok, breakfast time o_O
  317. # [14:12] <annevk> back later
  318. # [14:13] <Ms2ger> annevk, ask gsnedders :)
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  325. # [14:40] <annevk> Ms2ger, guess i should use hg log more often
  326. # [14:40] <annevk> :)
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  329. # [14:42] <Ms2ger> annevk, and all my tests have link rel=author :)
  330. # [14:45] <annevk> aah so i'm adding the wrong credits here
  331. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> Though I think I added a few cases recently
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  341. # [15:14] <llrcombs> if a page has a .manifest file, shouldn't the UA check for a new version of each content file?
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  345. # [15:24] <llrcombs> (just see if it's changed, not reload the whole file unless it hasn't changed)
  346. # [15:24] <llrcombs> amirite?
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  368. # [17:50] <llrcombs> hello?
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  372. # [18:12] <Dashiva> llrcombs: Better to just say or ask what you came for right away. People will get back to you :)
  373. # [18:13] <Philip`> It looks like he did ask, 3 hours ago, and nobody got back yet :-p
  374. # [18:15] <Dashiva> I just did
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  377. # [18:21] <llrcombs> if a page has a .manifest file, should the UA check for a new version of each content file on load?
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  380. # [18:32] <llrcombs> Dashiva; getting back?
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  382. # [18:35] <Dashiva> I'm not well versed in offline, but my understanding is that content files are only checked when the manifest changes (and not necessarily then either)
  383. # [18:36] <Dashiva> You shouldn't take my word for it, though
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  387. # [19:14] <llrcombs> hmmm
  388. # [19:15] <llrcombs> not much provision for when there's a new version of the file then, eh?
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  396. # [19:46] <annevk> hmm, I screwed up all the help links in tests
  397. # [19:46] <annevk> but I don't really believe in those anyway
  398. # [19:47] <annevk> or in author for that matter...
  399. # [19:47] <annevk> Ms2ger, any particular reason we are using those fields?
  400. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> Blame the CSSWG
  401. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> You can get rid of them if you want
  402. # [19:49] <annevk> cool
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  405. # [19:51] <annevk> not quite sure if rewriting the tests is the most efficient approach rather than just starting over but I guess overall it's not too much work
  406. # [19:51] <annevk> and it's almost done
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  408. # [19:55] <annevk> jgraham, you around? how do you test for ECMAScript errors using your framework?
  409. # [19:55] <annevk> e.g. error instanceof TypeError
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  411. # [19:56] <annevk> i.e. how to rewrite this code to use assert_throws:
  412. # [19:56] <annevk> try {
  413. # [19:56] <annevk> document.body.removeChild({'a':'b'})
  414. # [19:56] <annevk> assert_unreached()
  415. # [19:56] <annevk> } catch (e) {
  416. # [19:56] * away01 is now known as temp01
  417. # [19:57] <Ms2ger> assert_true(e instancof TypeError)
  418. # [19:57] <Ms2ger> }
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  420. # [20:00] <annevk> ?
  421. # [20:00] <annevk> it's instanceof afaict
  422. # [20:01] <Ms2ger> It is
  423. # [20:10] <annevk> hmm
  424. # [20:10] <annevk> document.body.removeChild(null) makes the framework collapse?
  425. # [20:10] <annevk> i wonder if i do something wrong
  426. # [20:11] <annevk> ooh, I guess it's a bug in the framework
  427. # [20:11] <annevk> assert_throws is continuously buggy
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  434. # [21:08] <annevk> yay
  435. # [21:08] <annevk> all existing stuff is fixored
  436. # [21:08] <annevk> now all the new stuff needs doing
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  438. # [21:10] <llrcombs> if a page has a .manifest file, should the UA check for a new version of each content file on load? If not, when should it?
  439. # [21:11] <annevk> only when the manifest changes
  440. # [21:12] <llrcombs> so how would I designate that a file had been updated?
  441. # [21:12] <llrcombs> (i.e. a .js file with a new version)
  442. # [21:12] <annevk> you change the manifest
  443. # [21:12] * mamund_ is now known as mamund
  444. # [21:12] <annevk> e.g. change a comment or do something like foo.js?v=2
  445. # [21:12] <llrcombs> or add whitespace?
  446. # [21:13] <annevk> could work
  447. # [21:13] <llrcombs> seems flawed
  448. # [21:13] <annevk> we can make it more complicated later
  449. # [21:13] <llrcombs> suggestion: allow a .manifest to include last-modified datetimes for each file
  450. # [21:13] <annevk> that would be complicated
  451. # [21:13] <llrcombs> so the UA can figure out if it should grab a new rev
  452. # [21:14] <llrcombs> until then, I can't use manifests for my webapps/widgets/etc
  453. # [21:14] <annevk> why?
  454. # [21:14] <annevk> you can just print the timestamp as comment, no?
  455. # [21:15] <llrcombs> yeah, but then it'd grab a new version of every file for every load
  456. # [21:15] <annevk> the server can return 304 like it can normally
  457. # [21:15] <llrcombs> defeats the purpose
  458. # [21:15] <annevk> if your file changes all the time you should prolly not put it in the manifest
  459. # [21:16] <llrcombs> no, I'm debugging
  460. # [21:16] <llrcombs> and I'll end up updating it to make new versions
  461. # [21:19] <llrcombs> you know, mantinence, new features...
  462. # [21:19] <llrcombs> bugfixes
  463. # [21:20] <annevk> sure
  464. # [21:20] <annevk> so add manifest when most of the other stuff is done
  465. # [21:20] <annevk> I don't really see the problem here
  466. # [21:21] <llrcombs> here's my idea:
  467. # [21:22] <llrcombs> the manifest file could be generated by a script, or just manually edited, so it include last-modified dates for each file in it
  468. # [21:22] <llrcombs> so when offline, the UA uses its cached versions of everything
  469. # [21:22] <llrcombs> and when online, it just checks the manifest against its stored manifest
  470. # [21:22] <llrcombs> to see if there's a new version of anything
  471. # [21:22] <annevk> yeah, I just told you you can do that
  472. # [21:22] <llrcombs> if there is, it just downloads THAT file
  473. # [21:23] <llrcombs> otherwise, it keeps using its cached version
  474. # [21:23] <annevk> it doesn't download the whole file anyway
  475. # [21:23] <llrcombs> the whole cached entity, or the whole .manifest?
  476. # [21:23] <annevk> the former
  477. # [21:24] <annevk> it just does a request and the server can say 304
  478. # [21:24] <gsnedders> For all those people nagging me about Anolis while I've been away, the following statement is true: 10:40 #whatwg: < jgraham> annevk: gsnedders has explicitly lost interest in anolis
  479. # [21:24] <annevk> SPDY will prolly optimize away the remaining bits
  480. # [21:24] <llrcombs> :D @ SPDY
  481. # [21:24] <llrcombs> but no one is implementing...
  482. # [21:25] <llrcombs> so it makes a request for every file, even those in the cache manifest?
  483. # [21:25] <annevk> yawn
  484. # [21:25] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, are you still going to put anolis2 somewhere?
  485. # [21:25] <llrcombs> sorry
  486. # [21:25] <llrcombs> I guess I'm not a caching expert
  487. # [21:25] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Let me do that riht now
  488. # [21:26] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@host86-184-97-104.range86-184.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: annevk)
  489. # [21:28] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: http://hg.gsnedders.com/anolis2/
  490. # [21:28] * gsnedders has no idea whether it even works at the moment
  491. # [21:30] * Ms2ger wonders what prompted "I <3 namespaces."
  492. # [21:30] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: See the diff
  493. # [21:30] * Joins: pauld (~chatzilla@host86-174-210-104.range86-174.btcentralplus.com)
  494. # [21:34] * Quits: sebmarkbage (50a87316@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.168.115.22) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  495. # [21:39] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  498. # [22:03] <jgraham> Oh anne left
  499. # [22:03] <jgraham> dammit
  500. # [22:04] <jgraham> for the record assert_throws(new TypeError(), document.body.removeChild({'a':'b'}))
  501. # [22:04] <jgraham> should work
  502. # [22:06] * jgraham wonders what the bug is
  503. # [22:07] <jgraham> I guess I could investigate
  504. # [22:07] <jgraham> But I should probably do the thing that Sam wanted first
  505. # [22:08] <Philip`> Surely that won't work since it'll call removeChild before calling assert_throws?
  506. # [22:08] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@c-76-102-33-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: -)
  507. # [22:09] * Quits: bgalbraith (~bgalbrait@c-71-198-27-150.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: bgalbraith)
  508. # [22:09] * Ms2ger assumes function() { document.body.removeChild({'a':'b'}) }
  509. # [22:10] <Philip`> Ah, that would seem more sensible and less like magic
  510. # [22:10] <jgraham> Er, yeah right
  511. # [22:10] <jgraham> Lots of function() {} wrappers needed everywhere
  512. # [22:11] * jgraham wishes javascript had a Haskell-like syntax for anonymous functions
  513. # [22:12] <jgraham> It would make this kind of thing much less visually noisy
  514. # [22:14] * Quits: ukai (~ukai@nat/google/x-tsakdttbgmyplhew) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  515. # [22:16] * Joins: ukai (~ukai@nat/google/x-jqyklrizlwfkyzzh)
  516. # [22:17] <gsnedders> jgraham: Are you starting to admit Haskell is a good language? :P
  517. # [22:21] * Joins: drunknbass (~drunknbas@76.91.255.83)
  518. # [22:25] * Twisol is now known as Twisol|away
  519. # [22:34] * Quits: pauld (~chatzilla@host86-174-210-104.range86-174.btcentralplus.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  520. # [22:36] <jgraham> gsnedders: WTF?
  521. # [22:36] <jgraham> I have *nver* said Haskell was a bad language
  522. # [22:36] <jgraham> **never*
  523. # [22:36] <jgraham> I sai it has a steep learning curve
  524. # [22:36] <jgraham> +d
  525. # [22:43] <gsnedders> You've said it in such a way as to imply it is bad as a result
  526. # [22:43] * Quits: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.159.231) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  527. # [22:43] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.159.231) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  530. # [22:46] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  531. # [22:56] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.72.112) (Quit: nn, back Sept. 11)
  532. # [22:56] <jgraham> Only if I was being severely misunderstood
  533. # [22:56] <jgraham> Which is possible if I wasn't being clear
  534. # [22:56] <jgraham> (being hard to learn is a bad property. It is not necessarily enough to create a bad whole)
  535. # [23:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: what happened about the t-shirt, btw?
  536. # [23:04] <jgraham> gsnedders: Not sure
  537. # [23:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: Feel free to just keep it till New Year, fwiw
  538. # [23:05] <jgraham> gsnedders: It wouldn't fit
  539. # [23:05] <jgraham> :)
  540. # [23:06] <gsnedders> ;P
  541. # [23:08] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-67-186-134-101.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  542. # [23:27] * Twisol|away is now known as Twisol
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  546. # [23:37] * jacobolu_ is now known as jacobolus
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  550. # Session Close: Sun Sep 05 00:00:00 2010

The end :)