/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Sep 05 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  18. # [00:59] <annevk> jgraham, thanks, will try
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  106. # [08:30] <boblet> Hey all, anyone know what’s up with Flexbox, Template Layout and Grid Positioning CSS3 modules? Are all being actively developed? Are all expected to continue?
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  137. # [09:42] <annevk> jgraham, you around?
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  140. # [09:45] <annevk> jgraham, function assert throws a new AssertionError, but what is catching that?
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  169. # [10:42] <annevk> jgraham, your script is fucking complicated
  170. # [10:42] <annevk> jgraham, I put an hour into debugging this assert_throws madness but no luck
  171. # [10:42] <annevk> jgraham, too much functions invoking each other and all kinds of crazyness
  172. # [10:44] <annevk> jgraham, I did found some smallish bugs
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  174. # [10:48] <annevk> btw, rather than <?xbl?> maybe we should have <html binding=""> instead?
  175. # [10:49] <annevk> (or maybe name it bindings as it presumably takes a space-separated list)
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  178. # [10:50] <annevk> jgraham, we should have some more discussion on the framework
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  194. # [11:14] <annevk> jgraham, http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/web-dom-core/changeset/d5e2a858a519 has the minor fixes
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  199. # [11:30] <annevk> prolly away most of the day -- trying to get back to Oslo
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  201. # [11:30] <jgraham> Wow I missed anne by || that much
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  212. # [12:16] <jgraham> Oh it was a simple bug
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  228. # [13:26] <jgraham> I pushed the fix to W3C repository BTW
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  241. # [15:29] <espadrine> I'm confused about "new Image(undefined,undefined);"
  242. # [15:29] <espadrine> Firefox, Chrome, Opera all do something different
  243. # [15:29] <espadrine> Firefox fires an error, Chrome turns undefined into the number 0, Opera treats this as new Image().
  244. # [15:29] <espadrine> Which one is right?
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  251. # [16:22] <Damark> Hey
  252. # [16:22] <Damark> I want help
  253. # [16:23] <gsnedders> espadrine: I think, if I'm understanding WebIDL correctly, Chrome is correct
  254. # [16:23] <gsnedders> Damark: Then ask.
  255. # [16:24] <Damark> i need shells please
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  257. # [16:26] <jgraham> Damark: I assume you are not talking about Mario Kart, but can't really work out what you might be talking about
  258. # [16:27] <jgraham> annevk: see logs
  259. # [16:27] <annevk> sure
  260. # [16:27] <annevk> might grab some food first
  261. # [16:27] <jgraham> annevk: np
  262. # [16:27] <annevk> just arrived at heathrow
  263. # [16:27] <jgraham> annevk: Fix pushed to W3C repository
  264. # [16:27] <jgraham> ah
  265. # [16:27] <annevk> k
  266. # [16:27] <jgraham> Simple bug that I should find a generic solution for
  267. # [16:28] <annevk> did you see my fixes?
  268. # [16:28] <jgraham> The template stuff requires explicit string conversions everywhere at the moment
  269. # [16:28] <jgraham> Or it just dies in confusing ways
  270. # [16:28] <annevk> i figured something went wrong with that
  271. # [16:28] <annevk> but I couldn't find it
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  273. # [16:28] <annevk> it's a maze of functions
  274. # [16:28] <jgraham> I fixed this one instance but it whould probably be fixed in more places
  275. # [16:29] <annevk> i wonder if we can simplify it somehow
  276. # [16:29] <annevk> less elegant but more clear or some such :)
  277. # [16:31] <jgraham> Maybe :)
  278. # [16:32] <annevk> i'm mostly worried about you being the only person that can fix "simple bugs" :)
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  280. # [16:36] <jgraham> So am I :)
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  283. # [16:47] <annevk> jgraham, the error message is still incorrect btw
  284. # [16:47] <annevk> oh maybe not
  285. # [16:47] <annevk> never mind
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  292. # [16:54] <boblet> annevk: yt?
  293. # [16:54] <annevk> yup
  294. # [16:54] <boblet> re: CSS3 layout modules, I’m wondering how they’re going — are all being actively developed? Are all expected to continue?
  295. # [16:55] <annevk> flexbox seems like it will happen in some form
  296. # [16:55] <annevk> not sure about any of the others
  297. # [16:56] <boblet> I guess having implementation is a big help
  298. # [16:57] <annevk> sure
  299. # [16:58] <boblet> I perceive flexbox as being good for web app interfaces, would that be right? also would grid positioning & template layout be better (in certain cases) for more web page content layout
  300. # [16:58] <boblet> ?
  301. # [17:02] <annevk> flexbox can be used for web page layout as well
  302. # [17:03] <annevk> I haven't studied layout models enough to give a really good answer, though according to Tab (iirc) most should be doable with flexbox
  303. # [17:05] <boblet> annevk: ok. yeah I know flexbox should work for everything, but was wondering if setting up a page layout for content would be easier with the others, or what the different strengths of each one were. Maybe I should ping Tab :)
  304. # [17:05] <boblet> annevk: thanks for your help yo
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  306. # [17:23] <annevk> jgraham, ms2ger had this feature request: http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/web-dom-core/issue/1/make-assert_throws-do-an-instanceof-domexception
  307. # [17:23] <annevk> jgraham, of course that does not work for ECMAScript exceptions
  308. # [17:26] <jgraham> Sure but one could assume that anything with a code is a DOMException
  309. # [17:27] <jgraham> So it should be rather easy to implement I think
  310. # [17:29] <annevk> what might also be nice is adding a check for e.name
  311. # [17:29] <annevk> e.name == arg basically
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  313. # [17:40] <annevk> wait, why does getElementsByTagName match on local name for HTML elements? I doubt that's true
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  330. # [19:32] * gsnedders wonders if you could write a generic runner for JS tests (for HTML5) using Watir
  331. # [19:32] * gsnedders wonders if Watir works with IE9/Fx4/WebKit ToT
  332. # [19:42] <jarib> gsnedders: basically just opening a list of URLs?
  333. # [19:43] <jarib> i'd recommend looking at watir-webdriver instead, but i'm biased :)
  334. # [19:43] <jgraham> gsnedders: Why would you bother?
  335. # [19:43] <jgraham> To avoid the problems of <iframe>s
  336. # [19:43] <jgraham> ?
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  342. # [20:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: Process everything and come up with something listing tests that fail in all browsers too, for example
  343. # [20:25] <gsnedders> jarib: And read the DOM
  344. # [20:28] <jarib> gsnedders: watir doesn't support any webkit browsers, and its firefox support is pretty shaky (especially now when Jssh is being EOLed)
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  347. # [20:29] <gsnedders> jarib: Ah, I thought the status of both of those was better than that
  348. # [20:33] <jarib> webdriver supports IE (though I haven't tested in IE9), chrome (though a rewritten driver just landed in the chromium tree), and firefox (Fx4 support just landed in trunk). a safari driver is under development
  349. # [20:33] <jarib> you might want to look at the selenium-webdriver gem to use that from ruby directly
  350. # [20:33] <gsnedders> webdriver can't actually access the DOM, though, right?
  351. # [20:34] <jarib> watir-webdriver is a watir wrapper around the selenium-webdriver gem
  352. # [20:34] <jarib> it can
  353. # [20:34] <jarib> the watir api is just more high level
  354. # [20:36] <jarib> i maintain both of those gems, feel free to pm/email me if you need any assistance
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  359. # [20:48] <Lachy> Hixie, Requiem 1.9.7 has been released now. It should work for iTunes 9.2.1. Won't work for iTunes 10, if you've upgraded already
  360. # [20:52] <gsnedders> jarib: Assistance is only useful if I reach the point of bothering to automate them in the general case :P
  361. # [20:57] <jarib> yep. don't think i can help you reach that point :)
  362. # [20:58] <jarib> out of curiosity though, what tests are you referring to?
  363. # [20:58] <gsnedders> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/
  364. # [21:00] <jarib> thanks
  365. # [21:02] * AryehGregor discovers that fall classes start in two days, drat
  366. # [21:03] <gsnedders> heh
  367. # [21:03] <gsnedders> I have another two weeks till that panic
  368. # [21:03] <gsnedders> But then it'll be like, "uh, studying? I stopped doing that before when I realized I hated that. Why am I here?"
  369. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> I was hoping to finish up my reflection test cases and submit them to the W3C before school started.
  370. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> Well, with luck I'll be able to do that before I have too much coursework to do.
  371. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> (not to mention all the other things I planned to do . . .)
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  378. # [21:19] <Hixie> Lachy: k
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  393. # [22:11] <jgraham> gsnedders: Except for special cases loading tests in an iframe should work rather well, no?
  394. # [22:12] <jgraham> The special cases being things that require a top-level browsing context
  395. # [22:12] <jgraham> In fact I was somewhat under the impression that that was what the Microsoft thing already did
  396. # [22:12] <jgraham> Although I confess I haven't really looked at it hard
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  401. # [22:15] <gsnedders> jgraham: But then you have to then aggregate the results from different browsers separately
  402. # [22:15] <jgraham> gsnedders: That doesn't seem like a problem, really
  403. # [22:16] <jgraham> This isn't like the CSS case where you have thousands of manual tests
  404. # [22:16] <gsnedders> jgraham: Indeed
  405. # [22:16] <gsnedders> But it's still more work than it need be
  406. # [22:16] <jgraham> in the ideal case you open the browser, start the testsuite, it generates a json file of all the results for you
  407. # [22:16] * gsnedders tries scanning some of his old 35mm film
  408. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> CSS has thousands of manual tests? Yikes.
  409. # [22:17] <jgraham> CSS2.1 does
  410. # [22:17] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Almost all of them are visual tests
  411. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> Oh, so you can just skim through to see what's green?
  412. # [22:17] <jgraham> For CSS 3 they will mostly use reftests which can be auomated more easilly
  413. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> (unless you're color-blind, oh well)
  414. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> Yay reftests.
  415. # [22:17] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Well, yeha. But it's really way more time-consuming than that.
  416. # [22:18] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: MS guy in the F2F said it took 16 hours for all the HTML copies for one browser. There are XHTML copies of all the tests too.
  417. # [22:18] * Quits: peol (~andree@unaffiliated/peol) (Remote host closed the connection)
  418. # [22:18] <jgraham> although browsers don't generally expose a consistent API for taking a screenshot so it is non-trivial to make a reftest harness
  419. # [22:18] <gsnedders> So the full testsuite would take 32 hours to run.
  420. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> jgraham, but that could be standardized pretty easily.
  421. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> At least in privileged contexts.
  422. # [22:18] <jgraham> that would be good
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  436. # [22:19] * gsnedders wants to get around 800 tests in the CSS 2.1 testsuite coverted to reftests in the next week
  437. # [22:20] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  438. # [22:21] <gsnedders> (there are around 9k)
  439. # [22:21] <gsnedders> (source files, that is)
  440. # [22:21] <gsnedders> (then there are generated from that 9k HTML copies)
  441. # [22:21] <Philip`_> AryehGregor: That sounds like it probably wouldn't help in the case of e.g. mobile browsers (when you're not a developer of that browser, e.g. you're someone who just wants to check standards compliance)
  442. # [22:21] <gsnedders> (but all that matters is the number of source files)
  443. # [22:22] <Philip`_> AryehGregor: or at least it doesn't sound pretty easy to standardise and implement in that context
  444. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> Philip`_, the obvious thing would be to just do a screenshot API that only works if nothing in the page is cross-domain. Is there any reason you know of not to do that?
  445. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> It would probably have other applications too.
  446. # [22:24] <Philip`_> AryehGregor: That seems unsafe for non-privileged code, because you could do stuff like read vlink colours
  447. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> Oh, bleh.
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  449. # [22:25] <Philip`_> and the text in <input type=file>s etc
  450. # [22:25] <AryehGregor> I guess so.
  451. # [22:25] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
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  456. # [22:26] <AryehGregor> Maybe you could have a command-line flag where the browser will retrieve a URL, execute it non-interactively with a fresh profile with the screenshot feature enabled, and spit out a result.
  457. # [22:26] <Philip`_> Same issues as with exposing Mozilla's context2d.drawWindow to web content
  458. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> If you can get the user to type an arbitrary command line, you can pwn them anyway, right?
  459. # [22:27] <Philip`_> Does a command-line flag help if you want to test the browser on your mobile phone which doesn't have a command line?
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  461. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> Mobile browsers are so hopelessly broken anyway that they can be set aside for now.
  462. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> Perfect is the enemy of good, you know.
  463. # [22:31] <Philip`_> It could be e.g. Opera on Wii, which probably isn't hopelessly broken, where some user wants to run the test suite to see how well they can rely on various features
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  465. # [22:31] <Philip`_> and reftests would be less useful than some other pure JS style of testing
  466. # [22:32] <gsnedders> Philip`_: It does use Presto 1, so I expect it isn't exactly bug-free wrt stuff fixed in the past few years
  467. # [22:32] <AryehGregor> It doesn't have to be command-line. Every browser just has to provide some reasonably secure way to expose the functionality.
  468. # [22:32] <AryehGregor> You could try exposing this to non-privileged JS, but it would be a minefield.
  469. # [22:33] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Presto 2.1 and above with Scope protocol?
  470. # [22:33] <gsnedders> (or maybe the screenshot API was only added later)
  471. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> Maybe?
  472. # [22:34] <gsnedders> STP/1 certainly supports screenshots being taken
  473. # [22:34] <gsnedders> http://dragonfly.opera.com/app/scope-interface/services/Exec/Exec_2_0.html#setupscreenwatcher
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  485. # [23:11] * Philip`_ is now known as Philip`
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  490. # [23:29] <TheLifelessOne> Soo
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  494. # Session Close: Mon Sep 06 00:00:00 2010

The end :)