/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-10 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Sep 10 00:00:00 2010
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:13] <TabAtkins> Is it appropriate for me to remove a TrackerRequest for a bug being escalated inappropriately?
# [00:13] <TabAtkins> Or is that something only editor/chairs should do?
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# [00:15] <Hixie> not something for the editor to do
# [00:15] <Hixie> that would be a conflict of interest
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# [00:16] <TabAtkins> K. Then, othermaciej, can I kill TrackerRequest from 10465, or should I let you do so? Faulkner is attempting to escalate a bug because of a different bug.
# [00:17] <TabAtkins> (It's not even just trying to fit two bugs in one - there's actually another existing bug *from him* that actually covers the issue he's trying to escale 10465 over.)
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# [00:36] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: it does seem like it would be better for Steve to escalate bug 10478 if he intends to, though that bug in my opinion needs a PFWG response
# [00:37] <TabAtkins> Oh, I agree with that. The issue at hand, though, is just the handling of 10465, which is completely wrong.
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# [01:09] <roc> http://blog.mozilla.com/rob-sayre/2010/09/09/js-benchmarks-closing-in/ ... the fun paragraph is "]While I was running the SunSpider tests above, I noticed that IE9 got a score that was at least 10x faster than every other browser on SunSpider's math-cordic test..."
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# [01:11] <annevk> benchmark games!
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# [01:11] <annevk> having them for layout would be coolor
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# [01:17] <Hixie> roc: it's really hard to come up with good benchmarks on the web
# [01:17] <Hixie> i wish we had better ones
# [01:17] <roc> that is one problem, yes
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# [01:18] <roc> it's a problem everywhere, really
# [01:18] <Hixie> part of the problem is that a realistic test would be something like taking gmail and automating it... but apps like gmail are incredibly hard to automate
# [01:18] <Hixie> at least in a browser-agnostic fashion
# [01:18] <roc> however, implementations pattern-matching whatever benchmarks you do come up with is another problem
# [01:18] <Hixie> on the desktop it's a lot easier because you can just take real apps and drive them
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# [01:18] <Hixie> yeah, that IE result is rather suspicious
# [01:18] <roc> (and that is also a problem everywhere)
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# [01:19] <roc> everywhere there's intense competition anyway
# [01:19] <Hixie> yeah, video cards are notorious for this
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# [01:24] <Hixie> IPv6 is not serving maciej well, it seems
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# [01:27] <Hixie> say i am scrolled half way down a web page. Is there a way for a script to insert content near the top of the page without affecting my scroll position?
# [01:27] <Hixie> record scrollTop then reset it afterwards?
# [01:27] <Hixie> after having added the added height?
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# [01:30] <Hixie> aha, he's back on IPv4
# [01:30] <othermaciej> roc: that faintly smells of optimizing out all the computation and/or constant folding the whole thing, which is something I'd like to prevent
# [01:30] <roc> that's exactly what they're doing
# [01:30] <roc> that's not really the problem though. It's not that hard to prove that the loop can be optimized away.
# [01:31] <Hixie> they're not doing a particularly good job if a "true;" statement stops it
# [01:31] <roc> the problem is that sayrer's diffs show that their optimization is extremely ... sensitive
# [01:33] <roc> Hixie: recording and adjusting scrollTop would kinda work
# [01:34] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Make the entire content area position:fixed, and fake scrolling so that doing so changes the position of the fixed container.
# [01:34] <roc> it's an underspecified problem though, since pages can change in ways that make it unclear what it means for the user to be looking at the same content before and after
# [01:34] <TabAtkins> (Horrifying hack, obviously.)
# [01:34] <othermaciej> roc: what I'd like to do is for each test to have three separate JS files - one that provides inputs via global variables, another that takes the inputs and saves an output, and a third that checks output correctness
# [01:34] <TabAtkins> Wait, that doesn't solve the problem. Sorry.
# [01:34] <othermaciej> I think that would prevent optimizing out a test entirely and would probably prevent unrealistic levels of constant folding
# [01:34] <Hixie> roc: in this case, i'm just inserting content that's in flow, nothing special
# [01:35] <roc> othermaciej: why not just compute something and then console.log it?
# [01:35] <TabAtkins> How did I not know that @draggable was a thing?
# [01:35] <othermaciej> roc: well, checking correctness of the computation has value in its own right...
# [01:36] <othermaciej> not clear to me how console.log is better at preventing over-optimization than storing in a global
# [01:36] <roc> yeah, but *hopefully* people aren't reporting benchmark results where the computation went wrong.
# [01:36] <othermaciej> maybe in this case it's a matter of earlier loop iterations being ignored in the final output
# [01:37] <roc> othermaciej: depends on the harness, but conceivably in some kinds of environments you could know the global is never read
# [01:37] <roc> but sure, in a normal open-world JS environment globals are fine
# [01:37] <roc> unless
# [01:38] <roc> someone does an optimization that stores a lazy thunk in the global, so the benchmark only runs when/if someone reads the global :-)
# [01:38] <othermaciej> magical levels of memoization, eh?
# [01:39] <roc> if someone wrote a JS engine in Haskell they'd probably get that optimization for free and win big :-)
# [01:39] <othermaciej> I guess the correctness check would have to be timed then
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# [01:40] <othermaciej> unlikely cause you'd need a whole lotta monads, since JS itself has side effects and generally non-lazy semantics
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# [01:41] <roc> yeah
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# [01:50] <othermaciej> but I could be wrong, I generally assume people who understand Haskell are smarter than me
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# [02:28] <DoctorZayas> anyone know about beekeeping
# [02:29] <jcranmer> uh... my grandfather kept bees for a few weeks
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# [02:30] <jcranmer> that's about the extent of my knowledge
# [02:31] <Hixie> that's really knowledge about your grandfather, not bees :-P
# [02:31] <DoctorZayas> i want to get into it but not to sure where to start
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# [02:31] <jcranmer> well
# [02:31] <jcranmer> this is not the channel for it
# [02:31] <jcranmer> Hixie: I'm sorry, I left my sense of logic at the door
# [02:31] <DoctorZayas> well u know of one
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# [02:31] <Hixie> there really isn't a topic for this channel
# [02:31] <Hixie> if people want to talk about bee keeping, that's fine by me :-)
# [02:32] <jcranmer> I highly doubt anyone in this channel has that kind of knowledge
# [02:32] <jcranmer> so let me talk about the wonderful vagaries of, oh
# [02:32] <Dashiva> I'm filing a formal objection if the spec doesn't properly explain that injoke
# [02:32] <TabAtkins> Sure, but he's unlikely to find anyone with the right kind of information here. ^_^
# [02:32] <jcranmer> the bee dancing
# [02:32] <DoctorZayas> so what is this chat about?
# [02:32] <TabAtkins> DoctorZayas: www.whatwg.org
# [02:33] <DoctorZayas> thanks
# [02:33] <Hixie> the hits for "bee keeping irc" on google for me amusingly list our irc logs from 2008 as the tenth hit
# [02:33] <DoctorZayas> thats y im here
# [02:33] <jcranmer> so I'm sure I have a book somewhere that refers in great deal to something to which the intricate patterns that bees make dancing out information somehow relates
# [02:33] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Haha, awesome. We have too much googlejuice.
# [02:33] <Dashiva> Let me answer that question with interpretive bee dance
# [02:34] <jcranmer> really random
# [02:34] <Hixie> anyway, the only knowledge i have about bee keeping is that the canonical example of <title> in HTML4 was about Bee Keeping, and HTML5's example is the sequel :-)
# [02:34] <jcranmer> ...
# [02:34] <jcranmer> this isn't going to help those search results
# [02:34] <jcranmer> so, in the interest of balancing out search results, let me commence:
# [02:34] <jcranmer> GET SOLUTION MANUALS HERE!
# [02:34] <DoctorZayas> well i don't know much about HTML either
# [02:35] <DoctorZayas> but i know a little
# [02:35] <Dashiva> Hixie: Where is that exmaple?
# [02:35] <jcranmer> ADULT SEX GALLERY
# [02:35] <jcranmer> Fill Form And Get $10,000 From PayPal.
# [02:35] <jcranmer> fundamental accounting principles 19e by wild test bank
# [02:35] <jcranmer> okay, I suppose that's enough
# [02:35] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: <title> element.
# [02:35] <Hixie> Dashiva: <title> element section (in both specs)
# [02:35] <Dashiva> Looking at 4.01, I see <TITLE>My first HTML document</TITLE> and <TITLE>A study of population dynamics</TITLE>
# [02:36] <DoctorZayas> i made a simple web page with a text document once
# [02:36] <jcranmer> </>
# [02:36] <Hixie> hm maybe it was not the <title> example
# [02:37] <Hixie> ah it's in the prose
# [02:37] <Hixie> a little earlier
# [02:37] <Hixie> search for "Bee-Keeping" in 7.4.2
# [02:37] <Dashiva> Aha
# [02:37] <Hixie> html5 is full of stupid in-jokes like that
# [02:38] <Dashiva> Needs a separate "pop culture references" section, clearly
# [02:38] <Dashiva> For some definition of pop culture that includes HTML4
# [02:38] <DoctorZayas> sweet well thanks anyway everyone was a real help
# [02:38] <Hixie> one day i'll do a n editor's commentary or something
# [02:39] <Dashiva> HTML5: Editor's cut
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# [03:36] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/2008/04/mokstats/public/global/20080401-20100110/
# [03:36] <karlcow> 78% of URIs not valid wrt "The document does not validate against XHTML Basic 1.1 or MP 1.2."
# [03:37] <karlcow> 39% of URIs without caching "The document is served without caching information ("Expires" or "Cache-Control" header)"
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# [03:39] <Hixie> nessy: do you have an opinion on what i should do with http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9452 at this point?
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# [03:40] <nessy> let me check
# [03:41] <nessy> can we have a JavaScript API to activate/deactivate multitrack resources?
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# [03:41] <nessy> I mean, the individual tracks?
# [03:42] <Hixie> like multiple audio tracks?
# [03:42] <Hixie> hmm
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# [03:43] <nessy> yeah, or different camera angles or sign language video tracks
# [03:44] <Hixie> seems like a "v2" feature to me, but i guess it depends on what the browser vendors want
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# [03:48] <nessy> yeah, I think browser vendors want it "v2", too, but it doesn't hurt to start thinking about possible solutions
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# [03:49] <nessy> it needs a JS API and some UI controls for the track activation
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# [07:11] <othermaciej> San Bruno (city just south of SF) is on fire
# [07:11] <othermaciej> yikes
# [07:15] <MikeSmith> what happened?
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# [07:15] <dpranke> supposedly a gas line exploded
# [07:16] <roc> not far from the airport
# [07:16] <roc> my boss just got on a plane back to SF!
# [07:17] <dpranke> http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area-news/ci_16036178
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# [07:39] <ashaw> I was wondering if anyone here now knows what the status of color calibration in CSS stands?
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# [08:00] <ashaw> I was wondering if anyone here now knows what the status of color calibration in CSS stands?
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# [08:11] <Hixie> "According to reports, that service uses AJAX (Asynchronous JavaScript and XML) instead of HTML5 -- which so many tech leaders are hailing as the future of the Web."
# [08:12] <Hixie> um
# [08:12] <Hixie> say what?
# [08:12] <othermaciej> buzzword bingo gone rogue!
# [08:12] <Hixie> http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/archives/220855.asp
# [08:12] <othermaciej> I heard a rumor though that they are going to abandon the AJAX implementation and switch to Web 2.0
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# [08:13] <MikeSmith> heh
# [08:14] <ashaw> general reporters really do not understand the net
# [08:14] <wirepair> s/the net/anything
# [08:15] <ashaw> well yeah,
# [08:15] <MikeSmith> ashaw: that's why they should always ask other people and mostly just quote what they say
# [08:15] <MikeSmith> otherwise they're not really reporters
# [08:16] <MikeSmith> they're more like just… bloggers
# [08:16] <ashaw> exactly
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# [08:16] <ashaw> or be arstechnica
# [08:16] <ashaw> or someone else in the tech media
# [08:16] <MikeSmith> the problems they have is when they make the mistake of stating things in their own words
# [08:16] <Hixie> sweet jesus the video on that blog post is even worse
# [08:17] <wirepair> technically it does say 'blog.' in the url :)
# [08:17] <ashaw> microsoft in the URL?
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# [08:17] <Hixie> i got 2 minutes into it and the guy from microsoft has so far referred to at least 2 things explicitly as being html5 despite neither being html5, and has referred to a bunch of other features none of which are html5 either
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# [08:18] <ashaw> just accept that html5 is the new Buzz word.
# [08:18] <Hixie> i don't mind that, it's just using "html5" as a buzzword for XMLHttpRequest doesn't even make sense
# [08:19] <ashaw> and that the standard will be what it is, and we can all laugh at people who do not understand it
# [08:19] <ashaw> well yeah, so. That realy is AJAX.
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# [08:24] <variable> Hixie, life is much easier if you have fewer expectations
# [08:24] <variable> about what people understand ;-)
# [08:24] <othermaciej> sorry for Apple's wifi being so bouncy earlier btw, not sure what was up
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# [08:25] <othermaciej> I may have stepped too close to a significant source of electromagnetic radiation
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# [08:48] <jgraham> othermaciej: Did you develop any interesting superpowers?
# [08:49] <othermaciej> the ability for my WiFi connection to drop and reconnect dozens of time
# [08:49] <othermaciej> s
# [08:49] <jgraham> So that would be a "no" then
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# [09:01] <hsivonen> Is set-cookie still the only http-equiv value not listed in HTML5 that needs to be supported for compat with existing content?
# [09:02] <hsivonen> (I think compat with hixie.ch or annevankesteren.nl doesn't really count here. sorry.)
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# [09:03] <Hixie> tests are never a valid concern when considering compat
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# [09:04] <hsivonen> fwiw, I highly doubt defaul-style is needed for backwards or future compat
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# [09:07] <Hixie> yeah that's just a convenience feature
# [09:07] <Hixie> probably not a critical one either since you can just do it by changing the rel values
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# [09:07] <hsivonen> too bad a google or dotbot analysis of content probably wouldn't reveal interesting things about dynamic sites
# [09:07] <Peter`> MikeSmith: congrats! :P your code just landed in v8
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# [09:09] <phrearch> hey
# [09:09] <phrearch> morning :)
# [09:09] <phrearch> i was wondering whether there are some docs on how to implement rdf into a wiki
# [09:09] <phrearch> some general recommendations or anything like that
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# [09:11] <hsivonen> phrearch: the general recommendation is not to implement rdf
# [09:14] <jgraham> http://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/09/final-user-agent-string-for-firefox-4/ seems likely to have scary compat. consequences. Has it actually been tested?
# [09:15] <hsivonen> jgraham: what are the scary bits? after all the discussion, 4 changes were made:
# [09:15] <hsivonen> 1) redundant Windows; removed
# [09:15] <hsivonen> should be OK, since the substing Windows is still in another token
# [09:16] <hsivonen> 2) U; removed
# [09:16] <hsivonen> *very* legacy
# [09:16] <hsivonen> 3) UI language removed
# [09:16] <hsivonen> IE doesn't have it
# [09:16] <hsivonen> 4) Gecko date frozen
# [09:16] <hsivonen> sniffers can't tell it's frozen
# [09:17] <roc> jgraham: we'll be testing it for a month or two before final :-)
# [09:17] <hsivonen> jgraham: also, removing the UI language improves how the fromser gets sniffed, because the Irish Gaelic version no longer has "IE" in the UA string
# [09:18] <hsivonen> s/fromser/browser/
# [09:18] <jgraham> hsivonen: *All* changes to the UA string are scary :) After all Opera 9-Opera 10 caused breakage
# [09:18] <jgraham> Particularly 1 and 2 seem to have the same problem
# [09:18] <jgraham> potentially
# [09:19] <jgraham> (and it is suggested that the date will be removed in the future, which would also have the same problem)
# [09:20] <jgraham> Of course I hope it is all fine, but one should never underestimate the craziness of the web
# [09:20] <hsivonen> I'm rather dissatisfied with the changes. particularly that we didn't (at least yet) make nighlies indistinguishable from release builds
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# [09:21] <jgraham> Why for sniffing or?
# [09:21] <hsivonen> for sniffing primarily (secondarily for privacy)
# [09:22] <jgraham> as someone else pointed out, having a way to get a build number into a bug report without user effort is A Good Thing
# [09:22] <phrearch> HSIVONEN: NOT?
# [09:22] <hsivonen> I'll have to continue to override the UA string of the build I use to make them look like release builds
# [09:22] <phrearch> oops sorry
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# [09:22] <hsivonen> phrearch: right
# [09:22] <phrearch> ok, it's bloated then?
# [09:23] <phrearch> i want to have some kind of ontology though
# [09:23] <hsivonen> jgraham: that's a use case for *one* site
# [09:23] <hsivonen> jgraham: while n sites can do something bad with the build ID
# [09:24] <hsivonen> phrearch: why do you want an ontology?
# [09:24] <jgraham> hsivonen: It's a use case for improving browser quality by making bugs easier to track down. But maybe not an important one
# [09:24] <phrearch> hsivonen: i want an efficient crawler and user-side querying
# [09:24] <hsivonen> jgraham: could be a JS API (potentially one limited to the bug tracker use)
# [09:24] <phrearch> like sparql does, but then with json instead of xml for the rdf
# [09:25] <phrearch> or something like it
# [09:25] <jgraham> sure, although I don't know how you would limit it
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# [09:25] <hsivonen> phrearch: well, I suggest finding out what the crawlers and user agents support
# [09:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: there's absolutely no point in letting Yahoo! break on the first on January each year
# [09:26] <phrearch> i guess i would need to stick to rdf in that case
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# [09:26] <hsivonen> phrearch: which crawlers and user agents support RDF?
# [09:27] <phrearch> i think they have another name for that: scutter
# [09:27] <phrearch> http://lists.foaf-project.org/pipermail/foaf-dev/2003-April/005227.html
# [09:27] <phrearch> its a bit outdated though
# [09:28] <phrearch> i know that nepomuk knows rdf
# [09:29] <phrearch> all stuff related to rdf seems to be at least 5 years old though :(
# [09:30] <hsivonen> phrearch: http://inamidst.com/whits/2008/ditching might explain why
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# [09:31] <phrearch> thanks, ill read it. i'm seriously considering just writing some simple json format for this myself
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# [09:32] <phrearch> bit ambitious, but this wiki should have a visual tool using canvas, that shows the hierarchy of pages, including external pages not on the current site
# [09:32] <phrearch> so if you open an external page, it should just load the data from site b
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# [09:37] <phrearch> hm good article
# [09:38] <phrearch> i think there are use-cases for a web-of-data, but maybe rdf isnt the way to do it
# [09:38] <phrearch> what i would like to see is a clean way to link data between multiple wikis
# [09:39] <phrearch> and visualise it
# [09:40] <mhausenblas> phrearch see http://www.slideshare.net/badmotorfinger/wiki-sym2010
# [09:40] <kennyluck> phrearch: I suggest you go to #swig if you are to ask questions related to RDF. If your use case is "user-side query", you might want to look into IndexedDB.
# [09:41] <phrearch> ok thanks!
# [09:41] <kennyluck> phreaarch: See also SIMILE Exhibit -> http://www.simile-widgets.org/exhibit/
# [09:41] <phrearch> interesting stuff
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# [09:43] <phrearch> hm http://sioc-project.org/
# [09:43] <mhausenblas> phrearch, as kennyluck said, maybe continue on #swig - happy to put you in touch with the SIOC guys (my colleagues ...)
# [09:44] <phrearch> mhausenblas: ok i will. yea that would be interesting. i could use some ideas to implement this wiki
# [09:45] <phrearch> this is the project im working on: http://hwios.org/
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# [09:46] <mhausenblas> interesting
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# [09:48] <phrearch> its still very unstable, but the grid architecture in opensim inspired me to do something likewise for the webpart
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# [11:04] <myakura> Hmm http://whatwg.org/c#rules-for-parsing-a-legacy-color-value doesn't say anything about currentcolor. is that intentional or a bug?
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# [11:04] <Hixie> legacy color values don't support 'currentcolor'
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# [11:07] <ashaw> What would it take to allow a colour value to be described in the LAB space?
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# [11:08] <ashaw> would that be feasable?
# [11:09] <annevk> it's not possible now
# [11:09] <ashaw> I know that.
# [11:09] <ashaw> That is why I am proposing it.
# [11:09] <myakura> Looks like Chrome 7 and IE9PP4 applies currentcolor in bgcolor and etc. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/624
# [11:10] <Hixie> ashaw: syntax for non-legacy colour values is defined by the CSSWG
# [11:10] <annevk> ashaw, www-style@w3.org
# [11:10] <myakura> and Fx4b5 doesn't (applies #c0e000)
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# [11:11] <erlehmann> myakura, will chrome reach version number 9 before IE reaches it? STAY TUNED.
# [11:12] <annevk> heh
# [11:13] <annevk> they're gonna beat us to 15 at this pace
# [11:13] <virtuelv> annevk: based on the rate they have of release, I think the number is 13
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# [11:14] <annevk> virtuelv, jaja, but 15 is an interesting number :)
# [11:14] <erlehmann> Will Chrome also cap their Browser string at 9.80?
# [11:14] <erlehmann> WE WILL SEE. IN THE FUTURE.
# [11:16] <MikeSmith> Peter`: thanks but it was a super-minor patch
# [11:16] <Peter`> Chrome has a release cycle of six weeks, that is likely to mean that a new major gets introduced every six weeks
# [11:17] <Peter`> MikeSmith: I realize, still it's nice to supply patches for random projects
# [11:17] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [11:18] <Peter`> Chrome 6 was released on the 2nd of September, so version 7 will be arriving mid October, v8 late November and version 9 early next year, which is before the IE9 stable will be released
# [11:19] <Rik`> when is IE9 supposed to be launched?
# [11:19] <Peter`> The first beta will be released next Wednesday
# [11:19] <erlehmann> Peter`, someone should make whenwillchromegoover9000.com
# [11:19] <Peter`> no idea about the timeframe after that
# [11:20] <erlehmann> If IE gets fast canvas, who will port a Javascript Theora decoder to it?
# [11:20] <MikeSmith> Peter` I guess though the change was minor, the effect of the bug wasn't so minor.. without that fix, it couldn't properly parse ISO8601-formatted dates .. anyway, while testing I found at least one more problem that I think it a bug, so I guess I should report that in case it is indeed a bug -- and maybe actually try to see if I can figure out what the fix might be
# [11:20] <Peter`> erlehmann, November 28 in 3044? :)
# [11:20] <Rik`> Peter`: I guess a beta in September means a final before the end of the year
# [11:20] <erlehmann> (I Bet that would also upset The Steve.)
# [11:21] <Peter`> Rik`, that'd be very nice, following their eight-week developer preview schedule it could be possible if there would only be two betas
# [11:22] <Peter`> so I don't have very high hopes
# [11:22] <Rik`> I don't think IE releases more than one beta
# [11:22] <Peter`> MikeSmith: another bug with date parsing, or something else?
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# [11:23] <MikeSmith> Peter`: date parsing
# [11:23] <MikeSmith> anyway, I'll look at it again today and see
# [11:23] <Peter`> Rik`, maybe. Have to say Microsoft Connect isn't that active, which could be a good thing
# [11:24] <annevk> MikeSmith, trying to define ECMAScript Date?
# [11:26] <MikeSmith> Peter`, I was kinda surprised to see how few outside V8 contributors there have been.. the authors file only lists less than 25 people (that doesn't count the people at Google who wrote it and maintain)
# [11:26] <MikeSmith> the ecmascript 5 Date.parse thing
# [11:26] <Peter`> indeed, I was surprised by that as well
# [11:26] <jgraham> MikeSmith: That doesn't seem that surprising
# [11:27] <jgraham> It's not like javascript engines are easy hobby projects
# [11:28] <Peter`> jgraham: no, but there's a lot of skilled programmers out there, and since it's open source people can contribute anything they want. V8 as an open-source project is fairly closed however, most discussions don't take place on any public list
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# [11:30] <MikeSmith> annevk: section 15.9.1.15 in the ecmascript spec
# [11:32] <jgraham> Peter`: I guess there is a steep learning curve and lots of performance critical code -> hard to get involved even if the project encouraged it (which is a prerequisite)
# [11:32] <MikeSmith> btw, it continues to surprise me that there's no HTML version of that spec, and not even a complete JS reference available online
# [11:32] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Tell me about it. Fancy doing the conversion from Word to HTML?
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# [11:33] <MikeSmith> I think the Word export to HTML has gotten better
# [11:34] <MikeSmith> or actually I don't know that, I just hope it
# [11:34] <MikeSmith> because it really could not have gotten too much worse
# [11:34] <MikeSmith> or maybe it has
# [11:34] * MikeSmith knocks on wood
# [11:35] <annevk> MikeSmith, that spec is woefully vague though, see http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_ECMAScript
# [11:35] <annevk> for submission of <input type=email multiple>, should the specification say something about the serialization of the list?
# [11:35] <MikeSmith> yeah, it's an odd spec compared to most modern Web technology specs
# [11:35] <annevk> e.g. not having any spaces around the comma
# [11:35] <zcorpan_> not so much too vague as not addressing web compat issues enough
# [11:37] <MikeSmith> I often seem to come across things in that spec that I don't understand the rationale for at all
# [11:37] <annevk> same for DOM Core
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# [11:38] <MikeSmith> example, it allows you to do Date(someDateString) -- without the new, not as constructor
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# [11:38] <MikeSmith> and the spec says it must return the current date, not emit an error
# [11:38] <MikeSmith> that is, it just silently ignores the argument
# [11:38] <erlehmann> MikeSmith, it surprises me that standards organisations still use word 2002 format as of today.
# [11:39] <MikeSmith> true
# [11:45] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: the rationale for that is in /topic
# [11:45] <MikeSmith> heh
# [11:45] <MikeSmith> they should put that on the cover of that spec
# [11:47] <erlehmann> MikeSmith, Cake and grief counseling will be available upon completion of the implementation.
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# [11:47] <MikeSmith> :)
# [11:48] <erlehmann> The WHATWG wishes to remind you that today is bring your browser to work day!
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# [12:15] <mokush_> bring your browser to work day?
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# [12:16] <Jedi_> it's already 18:13 here :-/
# [12:20] <Workmon> erlehmann: You mean you don't bring your browser to wrok every day?
# [12:21] <Workmon> *work
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# [12:27] <erlehmann> Workmon, part of my next job is to make a site work in IE6, because some people cannot use browsers of their own choosing. Incidentally, I was told that at the EU parliament, they still uses old versions of IE.
# [12:27] * erlehmann throws a pokéball at Workmon.
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# [12:27] <erlehmann> GOTTA CATCH THEM ALL
# [12:28] <annevk> great, now we'll get pokemon questions
# [12:29] <jgraham> Not if I mention that this is the top internet resource for Bee Keeping
# [12:29] <erlehmann> Hey! Hacking pokemon ROMs with hex editors (changing attributes, maps and jump addresses) was one of the first things I did with computers.
# [12:29] <erlehmann> Guess my age ;)
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# [12:29] <jgraham> We can answer all your Bee Kiiping related questions
# [12:30] <jgraham> *Bee Keeping
# [12:30] <jgraham> Not sure how it is even possible to typo e as i
# [12:30] <erlehmann> Well, there is a german blogger called "Malte Welding".
# [12:30] <erlehmann> Of course he gets queries regarding Malta and metal works.
# [12:30] <jgraham> So, as I was saying. Bees
# [12:31] <jgraham> delicious honey
# [12:31] <erlehmann> Baby, you are making me so hooooneeey!
# [12:35] <Philip`> I love bees
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# [12:43] <annevk> so besides Drag & Drop and Microdata, what is using DOMStringList?
# [12:43] <annevk> maybe we should nuke it in favor of DOMString[] or some such?
# [12:44] <annevk> ah, Document.styleSheetSets
# [12:44] <annevk> all defined by Hixie...
# [12:45] <erlehmann> Oh, btw. I asked this last year already, but is anyone of the WHATWG folks coming to Chaos Communication Congress?
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# [13:01] <hsivonen> jgraham: should I expect that http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10456 and http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10578 get FIXED and pre-emptively fix the test cases?
# [13:01] <hsivonen> abarth got r+ on the removal of 'comment end space' in WebKit
# [13:02] <karlcow> http://code.google.com/p/wkhtmltopdf/
# [13:02] <annevk> hsivonen, are we sure this does not break more content?
# [13:03] <hsivonen> annevk: I haven't seen any reports of anything breaking because of this
# [13:03] <annevk> I know CNN breaks now, but we're not sure what works now and will break, right?
# [13:03] <hsivonen> annevk: we has shipped betas without 'comment end space' and no complaints have reached my plate
# [13:04] <Workmon> erlehmann: We just deprecated IE6 here
# [13:04] <Workmon> Not that it helped, since the same release blindsided us with some IE7 issues
# [13:04] <annevk> hsivonen, ah sorry
# [13:04] <annevk> hsivonen, lets fix the test then
# [13:04] <zcorpan_> annevk: also see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=570309#c19
# [13:05] <hsivonen> annevk: OK to pre-emptively fix the ]]EOF stuff, too?
# [13:05] <erlehmann> Workmon, "here"?
# [13:06] <Workmon> My project
# [13:06] <hsivonen> Workmon: what's your project?
# [13:06] <annevk> hsivonen, makes sense to me
# [13:06] <hsivonen> karlcow: interesting. I wonder how it compares to Prince.
# [13:06] <hsivonen> annevk: OK. Fixes coming up.
# [13:06] <annevk> hsivonen, well actually, I guess CDATA is somewhat different from start tag tokens and such
# [13:07] <annevk> hsivonen, i.e. rendering CDATA content partially might still be useful if a large batch of content is in CDATA and you get a premature EOF
# [13:07] <annevk> but I don't feel strongly
# [13:08] <hsivonen> annevk: partially, sure, but do you really care about rendering trailing ]]?
# [13:08] <hsivonen> I'm not suggesting that the text in the CDATA section be suppressed
# [13:09] <annevk> oh wait, I see what you mean now
# [13:09] <zcorpan_> seems opera currently doesn't render the trailing ]]
# [13:09] <annevk> you mean if the CDATA closing thing is not complete you drop the closing bit
# [13:09] <annevk> that seems fine
# [13:09] <hsivonen> annevk: yes, OK.
# [13:10] <hsivonen> I think I'll start a new .dat file for tests that are text editor and text/plain-unfriendly
# [13:10] <annevk> i'm sort of reaching the point in Web DOM Core where it would be very useful to know if we are going to experiment with Attr
# [13:10] <hsivonen> and move the carriage return test there
# [13:10] <annevk> other than that it is mostly complete I think
# [13:11] <hsivonen> (personally, I'd prefer we focus energy on something other than eradicating Attr)
# [13:12] <annevk> you are probably right
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# [13:13] <annevk> I don't really want to remove it, but maybe no longer making it a node would be nice
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# [13:16] <hsivonen> I don't have an opinion on whether removing Nodeness is worthwhile, but inheriting from Node seems like a design error to me
# [13:16] <zcorpan_> Attrs also have a child text node
# [13:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: whoa! I wasn't aware. that's crazy
# [13:16] <zcorpan_> which iirc we had to implement for web compat
# [13:17] <hsivonen> that's really sad
# [13:17] <annevk> they have children because of entities
# [13:17] <annevk> entities introduced a _lot_ of complexity to the DOM
# [13:17] <annevk> however they never got implemented
# [13:17] <annevk> but the complexity is still there
# [13:19] <hsivonen> even SAX doesn't try to expose entity boundaries in attribute values
# [13:19] <hsivonen> and SAX tries to expose everything if you ask for it
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# [13:21] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/625
# [13:22] <zcorpan_> hmm, doesn't work in firefox
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# [13:23] <annevk> huh
# [13:24] <hsivonen> maybe there's still hope!
# [13:26] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/626 works in firefox though
# [13:26] <hsivonen> boo. Hixie made all REPLACEMENT CHARACTERs not set frameset-ok to not ok
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# [13:29] <jgraham> hsivonen: I thought there was a reason for that
# [13:29] <annevk> zcorpan_, o_O
# [13:29] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'm reopening the bug with counter-reasons
# [13:29] * MikeSmith reads http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/site/cocoa-text.html and discovers there is actually a kill ring in Cocoa/OSX -- with default of last 4 text selections -- and you can add to it, and you can associate a key binding with it cycling through yanking from it
# [13:30] <jgraham> hsivonen: did you see http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10418 ?
# [13:32] <hsivonen> jgraham: I didn't
# [13:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: cocoa text widgets support some emacs keybindings
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# [13:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, I noticed that
# [13:37] <MikeSmith> but they don't seem to have ^W by default
# [13:37] <MikeSmith> which is the particular one I'm wanting
# [13:44] <annevk> so Firefox creates different kind of Attr objects depending on which method you use to create the attribute
# [13:45] <annevk> bah
# [13:45] <hsivonen> ah. tests19.dat is by jgraham
# [13:45] <hsivonen> for a moment there I worried that WebKit had implemented Hixie's "simplification"
# [13:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'm starting to think the 'in foreign' mode is folly and we should be instead be looking at the namespace of the current element
# [13:55] <hsivonen> when do we want the tree builder to be in "in foreign" when the element on the stack is in the HTML namespace?
# [14:02] <hsivonen> how does TC39 keep the spec in version control if it's a Word file?
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# [14:03] <annevk> word has version control
# [14:04] <hsivonen> Sharepoint?
# [14:06] <MikeSmith> Hixie: kindly don't remove TrackerIssue or TrackerRequest keywords from bugs
# [14:06] <MikeSmith> please
# [14:06] <MikeSmith> because if you do, then I will have to ban you from bugzilla and it will be sorta hard to get any bugs resolved if the editor can't respond to them…
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# [14:12] <hsivonen> maybe people should have to file bugs that end up FIXED to earn bug karma that permits the use of the escalation path
# [14:12] * Workmon files a preemptive issue on hsivonen's idea
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# [14:15] <hsivonen> jgraham: OK to pre-emptively adjust tests to assume that Hixie fixes http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9659 the Gecko/WebKit way?
# [14:16] <MikeSmith> Workmon: :)
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# [14:27] <hsivonen> whoa! the  test wasn't bogus
# [14:27] <hsivonen> my ways of observing it were
# [14:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: Hmm. If you are going to adjust tests preemptively can you move the tests into a new file, check in the old version then make the changes?
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# [14:28] <jgraham> So that there is a commit that is right per the current spec and a commit that is right per the hypothetical future spec?
# [14:28] <annevk> can we have this as example for <video>: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQSNhk5ICTI
# [14:28] <jgraham> (one file per bug)
# [14:28] <hsivonen> jgraham: I already made the pre-emptive changes annevk OK'ed in-place
# [14:28] <jgraham> hsivonen: Oh
# [14:29] <hsivonen> jgraham: but I can do the REPLACEMENT CHARACTER thing by moving into a new file first
# [14:29] <jgraham> hsivonen: Would it be an unreasonable amount of effort to rectroactively do that for the other change?
# [14:29] <jgraham> It's not a big problem if it is
# [14:30] <hsivonen> not a huge effort but why bother in the non-controversial cases?
# [14:30] <jgraham> They're not really non-controversial until Hixie agrees to change the spec :)
# [14:31] <jgraham> Plus if he changes in a third way, it keeps all the things that need to be updated together
# [14:33] <hsivonen> if Hixie changes ]]> and comment end space in a third way, we have bigger problems than test cases
# [14:33] <jgraham> Well that is probably true
# [14:34] <jgraham> Still I would really prefer all the tests that touch pending spec chages to be isolated into their own files
# [14:34] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok.
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# [14:43] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: how do you translate the word 无为?
# [14:44] <kennyluck> MikeSmith: Literally it means "doing nothing" :)
# [14:44] <kennyluck> ... or the philosophy or "doing nothing makes things better".
# [14:44] <MikeSmith> is it a normal word in modern usage?
# [14:44] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [14:44] <MikeSmith> it's a taoist word
# [14:45] <kennyluck> MikeSmith: huh... this is an English question, not my expertise :)
# [14:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: they are now isolated but the history isn't fancy
# [14:45] <MikeSmith> "wu wei", right?
# [14:45] <kennyluck> Yeah
# [14:45] <MikeSmith> I mean in Chinese is it a normal word in modern usage?
# [14:45] <MikeSmith> or is it quaint/old-fashioned sounding?
# [14:45] <kennyluck> MikeSmith: no..
# [14:46] <MikeSmith> not normally used in conversation?
# [14:46] <kennyluck> MikeSmith: not at all
# [14:46] <MikeSmith> I see
# [14:46] <MikeSmith> just in the tao sense?
# [14:47] <kennyluck> MikeSmith: Yes, but I would use this word even if I haven't studied taoist.
# [14:47] <kennyluck> just because it's famous
# [14:48] <MikeSmith> I see
# [14:48] <kennyluck> So it's a famous old-fashioned word, I would say
# [14:48] <MikeSmith> it's interesting to hear it's famous
# [14:48] <MikeSmith> I don't think it's famous to most non-Chinese speakers
# [14:49] <jcranmer> never heard of it
# [14:49] <kennyluck> Probably, I probably don't know any thing you say about Shakesphere, too.
# [14:49] <kennyluck> s/too/either/
# [14:49] <jcranmer> 'To be or not to be, that is the question.'
# [14:50] <jcranmer> Whether 'tis nobler to die by the... that's as far as I know
# [14:50] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: if you use that word in normal discussions with native Chinese speakers, they know right away what the connotations are? that is, the idea you described as "doing nothing makes things better"?
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# [14:51] <MikeSmith> that is, this is basically common knowledge to Chinese speakers
# [14:51] <kennyluck> Yes, MikeSmith, 无 and 为 is not a normal comination.
# [14:51] <MikeSmith> ?
# [14:51] <MikeSmith> ok
# [14:51] <kennyluck> Although they are very simple characters.
# [14:51] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [14:51] <MikeSmith> seems like
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# [14:51] <kennyluck> s/comination/combination/
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# [14:52] <MikeSmith> I think people outside of China could maybe learning some of this common knowledge
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# [14:53] <MikeSmith> but I think the Tao Te Ching maybe had negative connotations to a lot of people, due to abuse by clowns like Deepak Chopra and such
# [14:53] <MikeSmith> s/had/has/
# [14:54] <MikeSmith> anyway, I digress
# [14:54] <kennyluck> MikeSmith: I shamefully don't know who this Tao Te Ching is, the creator of Taoist?
# [14:55] <MikeSmith> Lao Tzu
# [14:55] <kennyluck> OhOh, the book, I see.
# [14:55] <MikeSmith> yeah, just the book
# [14:55] <MikeSmith> his writings
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# [15:00] <hsivonen> if I use XHR to request a text/plain; charset=utf-8 file and ask for responseText, will the UTF-16 string I get be a result of pure UTF-8 to UTF-16 conversion without anything tampering with carriage returns and U+0000?
# [15:01] <annevk> per spec, yes
# [15:02] <annevk> it only tampers with invalid sequences
# [15:02] <hsivonen> annevk: OK. I guess I have to try to see what Gecko actually does
# [15:02] <annevk> i tested this to some extent, if you find something let me know and i'll update the relevant test to cover more cases
# [15:02] <hsivonen> ok
# [15:03] <annevk> http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/XMLHttpRequest/responsetext-decoding.htm is what I have now
# [15:04] <hsivonen> annevk: would be prudent to have U+0000 and CR there in any case
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# [15:15] <hsivonen> whee! my Java test harness is CR-unsafe, too!
# [15:15] <hsivonen> but for *expected* results, not for test input
# [15:15] <hsivonen> oops. that's the unsafe thing everywhere
# [15:23] <MikeSmithX> http://snoopy.allmarkedup.com/ seems pretty useful
# [15:23] <MikeSmithX> by way of adactio
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# [15:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: OK, thanks
# [15:30] <hsivonen> jgraham: the file with the frameset-ok tests has fancy history
# [15:30] <hsivonen> but it's useless to view it, since the file now contains \0
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# [15:57] <hsivonen> sigh. What problem does "in table text" solve?
# [15:57] <hsivonen> clearly, I should watch way more carefully when Hixie changes what I suggest slightly
# [15:58] <annevk> yay for XPATH_NAMESPACE_NODE
# [15:58] <hsivonen> what's that?
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# [15:59] <annevk> the DOM XPath people thought they could not do with what existed so invented something new
# [15:59] <zcorpan_> awesome. let's add // comments to websrt
# [15:59] <annevk> "The XPathNamespace interface is returned by XPathResult interfaces to represent the XPath namespace node type that DOM lacks."
# [16:00] <annevk> zcorpan_?
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# [16:00] <hsivonen> boo. I think what I have sucks less than "in table text"
# [16:00] <zcorpan_> annevk: see whatwg
# [16:03] <annevk> zcorpan_, old email? oh well
# [16:05] <zcorpan_> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-September/028479.html
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# [16:22] <annevk> things that would also be somewhat nice
# [16:22] <annevk> moving namespaceURI and similar attributes down from Node
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# [16:25] <hsivonen> ok. I see "in table text" is equivalent with what I thought I had been doing
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# [16:25] <hsivonen> but not what my code actually does
# [16:26] <hsivonen> sigh
# [16:26] <hsivonen> major changes
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# [16:37] <hsivonen> abarth and eseidel sure have some evil test cases
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# [18:36] <MikeSmith> anybody know if there's a way I can cause the contents of the OSX system clipboard to be copied to Cocoa kill ring?
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# [18:59] <TabAtkins> zcorpan_: // comments sound good to me. They're familiar enough that people try to use them in CSS all the time, despite them not actually being a comment there.
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# [19:06] <Philip`> TabAtkins: That's because CSS stupidly copied the /* syntax from JS and not the // syntax
# [19:07] <Philip`> and people see that the first is correct and then assume the second must work too
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# [19:07] <TabAtkins> I agree that it's stupid. ^_^ I was just saying that the // syntax is super-ubiquitous.
# [19:07] <Philip`> I'm saying it's just ubiquitous in formats that already have /* :-)
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# [19:08] <Philip`> People don't seem to write // in HTML files much
# [19:08] <TabAtkins> (I think maybe CSS wanted to maintain the invariant that all whitespace was equivalent, which // comments break?)
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# [19:10] <annevk> it's not a limitation of the crazy syntax system we use?
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# [19:11] <TabAtkins> I doubt it's an *intrinsic* limitation.
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# [19:32] <Workshiva> Is this actually a real commercial? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvu2QPQLlYA
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# [19:32] <TabAtkins> Read the info on the video.
# [19:33] <Workshiva> I did, but it could be part of the joke
# [19:34] <TabAtkins> http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/05/first-look-vivitar-film-slr-is-all-manual-all-the-time/
# [19:34] <TabAtkins> Oh, nm, that's a different camera.
# [19:35] <TabAtkins> http://dvice.com/archives/2010/09/new-discovery-c.php
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# [19:36] <Workshiva> I guess I'm just amazed that 'remove memory card, take to store' is impossible when 'remove film roll, take to store' isn't
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# [19:41] <annevk> so when is <input list> / <datalist> in Minefield?
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# [19:41] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A...%3Cinput%20list%3Dtest%3E%3Cdatalist%20id%3Dtest%3E%3Coption%20value%3Dtest%3E%3Coption%20value%3Dtest2%3E%3C%2Fdatalist%3E does not work for me
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# [22:12] <annevk> aah
# [22:12] <annevk> my Minefield copy was out of date for some reason
# [22:13] <annevk> <input list> works!
# [22:13] <annevk> unfortunately it has the same basic impl as us, no arrow that indicates more options are available
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# [22:17] <Rik`_> annevk: and it doesn't "filter" as I type
# [22:18] <Rik`_> don't know if it's supposed too, I was just expecting that
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# [22:18] <annevk> that's why I think a select-box like arrow would be better
# [22:19] <annevk> after all, this was supposed to be an editable select element
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# [22:26] <annevk> I thought HTML5 was using NamedNodeMap somewhere?
# [22:26] <annevk> not so?
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# [22:44] <jarib> anyone know if/where i can find a map of IDL attributes -> content attributes?
# [22:44] <jarib> e.g. htmlFor -> for
# [22:45] <jarib> and by "map" i mean something machine readable
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# [22:52] <annevk> I don't think there is such a thing at the moment
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# [22:59] <jarib> would that be a good idea to add? and what would be the right place to request it?
# [23:03] <Hixie> there's no index of reflected attributes currently, but if anyone wants to make such an index, I'd be happy to add it to the spec
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# [23:09] <jarib> Hixie: ok, i might take a stab at that. will have to think about the best way to structure it
# [23:10] <jarib> it would probably have to be a map per IDL interface, no?
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# [23:11] <jarib> i'm guessing there are cases where it's not 100% consistent from element to element
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# [23:13] <Hixie> jarib: oh it's definitely not consistent, that's for sure
# [23:13] <Hixie> jarib: i don't really know what the best organisation would be
# [23:13] <jarib> :)
# [23:13] <Hixie> jarib: ms2ger might have ideas on this front, he did most of our indexes so far
# [23:14] <jarib> cool. is that his irc nick?
# [23:15] <Hixie> yeah i think so
# [23:15] <jarib> ok
# [23:15] <Hixie> might be helpful to also note the kind of reflection, too
# [23:15] <Hixie> though that would increase the workload
# [23:15] <jarib> "kind of reflection"?
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# [23:16] <Hixie> e.g. "this is reflected as a DOMString as an enumerated attribute limited to only known values"
# [23:16] <jarib> oh, right
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# [23:16] <Hixie> or "double" or "long limited to only non-negative numbers" or whatnot
# [23:17] <jarib> i'm only interested the attribute names personally, but i can see how that would be useful
# [23:18] <Hixie> yeah the attributes names would be helpful on its own too
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# Session Close: Sat Sep 11 00:00:00 2010

The end :)