/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-12 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  31. # [01:32] <webben> hsivonen: Of course - by nature, any usage of DE is theoretical until actually implemented, no?
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  131. # [09:40] <hsivonen_> webben: well, maybe we shouldn't cater for theoretical extension ahead of time in abstract architectures and should instead cross bridges as we get to them
  132. # [09:40] * hsivonen_ is now known as hsivonen
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  134. # [09:41] <annevk> I don't think that is still a maybe
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  137. # [10:00] <hsivonen> looks like bluegriffon tries to be polyglot
  138. # [10:00] <hsivonen> a bit too much, even: there's an XML decl
  139. # [10:07] <annevk> jgraham_, the DOMImplementation-createDocument.html test gives very weird results
  140. # [10:07] <hsivonen> I wonder if the Super Friends have opinions on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10589
  141. # [10:07] <annevk> jgraham_, "assert_throws:
  142. # [10:07] <annevk> function() { document.implementation.createDocument(namespaceURI, qualifiedName, doctype) } threw with code INVALID_CHARACTER_ERR (5) expected INVALID_CHARACTER_ERR (5)"
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  147. # [10:22] <annevk> does the end of an SRT timestamp really look like "SS:,FFF"?
  148. # [10:22] <annevk> or "SS:.FFF"
  149. # [10:24] <annevk> looks like a bug in the spec
  150. # [10:25] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10607
  151. # [10:34] <annevk> jgraham_, more interesting is that in Chrome this problem does not occur
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  155. # [10:42] <annevk> oh yeah, the WebKit way of omitting DOM arguments is not very great
  156. # [10:43] <annevk> e.g. by createDocument it will give you a root element of "undefined"
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  163. # [11:12] <annevk> does IE have isSupported on Node?
  164. # [11:12] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cscript%3E%20w(%22isSupported%22%20in%20document)%20%3C%2Fscript%3E
  165. # [11:12] <annevk> true / false?
  166. # [11:13] <hsivonen> annevk: true in IE9 PP4
  167. # [11:14] <hsivonen> or at least I think I have PP4
  168. # [11:14] * hsivonen wishes the PPs had nicer version numbers
  169. # [11:14] <annevk> bah
  170. # [11:14] <annevk> but thanks
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  172. # [11:14] <hsivonen> annevk: were you hoping to zap that feature?
  173. # [11:14] <annevk> yes
  174. # [11:15] <annevk> it's no different from document.implementation.hasFeature as far as I can tell
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  176. # [11:15] <annevk> which makes it a fairly stupid addition of DOM3Core
  177. # [11:17] <annevk> there's lots of features I'd really like to zap
  178. # [11:18] <annevk> the draft has a whole list at the end already of features marked historical that have not been implemented everywhere and are fairly close to useless
  179. # [11:18] <othermaciej> you should still zap it if it is unused
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  182. # [11:19] <annevk> agreed, but that is hard to determine
  183. # [11:19] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  184. # [11:19] <annevk> but it seems somewhat unlikely that people use this one
  185. # [11:20] <hsivonen> kinda sad that XOM that's supposed to be a DOM replacement that doesn't suck has indexed child access instead of firstChild/nextSibling links
  186. # [11:20] <hsivonen> now that we've learned on the browser side that indexed children are worse
  187. # [11:21] * hsivonen keeps a cache of table index in the XOM tree builder to make foster parenting have better performance characteristics
  188. # [11:22] <annevk> codesearch yields one somewhat relevant result, but that script adding support for the method via prototyping, and it doesn't actually use it...
  189. # [11:23] <hsivonen> didn't the IE team say they prioritized DOM additions based on use in the wild?
  190. # [11:23] <annevk> maybe they also implemented additions that were easy?
  191. # [11:24] <annevk> no idea really
  192. # [11:24] <annevk> hopefully they come to TPAC
  193. # [11:24] <annevk> cause mailing list communication...
  194. # [11:24] <hsivonen> fwiw, your test doesn't work in IE8
  195. # [11:25] <hsivonen> fails before logging anything
  196. # [11:25] <hsivonen> s/anything/true or false/
  197. # [11:26] <annevk> weird
  198. # [11:26] <annevk> oh, maybe that is their "security feature"
  199. # [11:26] <hsivonen> annevk: two errors:
  200. # [11:26] <hsivonen> Function expected
  201. # [11:27] <hsivonen> Object doesn't support this property or method
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  203. # [11:27] <annevk> MSDN doesn't list it
  204. # [11:28] <annevk> I guess that is sufficient
  205. # [11:28] <othermaciej> hsivonen: what is worst of all is supporting both indexed and previous/next
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  207. # [11:29] <othermaciej> (though I suppose indexed is almost inevitably poor in the face of remove/insert)
  208. # [11:29] <hsivonen> XOM: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/788007
  209. # [11:30] <hsivonen> DOM: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/788008
  210. # [11:30] <othermaciej> you have to reverse-engineer previous/next, eh?
  211. # [11:31] <hsivonen> well, I have to emulate them by first searching the node's index in the parent
  212. # [11:31] <othermaciej> I kinda wish the DOM didn't have indexed access at all (which it does via childNodes)
  213. # [11:31] <othermaciej> then the fundamental accessors and mutators could all be O(1) in all cases
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  215. # [11:32] <hsivonen> also, JavaScript FTW for not having to do all this casting
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  217. # [11:37] <annevk> that code looks terrible
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  225. # [11:56] <hsivonen> well. this isn't nice. I've updated GWT at some point and now the GWT Single Script Linker refuses to link the JS version of the parser
  226. # [11:58] <hsivonen> boo. and the GWT development mode plug-in would require downgrading to Firefox 3.5
  227. # [12:05] <hsivonen> I don't like it at all that GWT wants to default to generating browser-specific alternative scripts instead of generating a single-script with built-in feature sniffing
  228. # [12:07] * hsivonen leaves the GWT build broken and code untested and moves on with making Firefox better
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  239. # [12:45] <annevk> I wonder why Google News thinks that Koran burning has anything to do with either Science or Technology
  240. # [12:45] <annevk> is that a US thing?
  241. # [12:46] * Quits: mischat (~mischat@78-86-167-133.zone2.bethere.co.uk) (Client Quit)
  242. # [12:47] <othermaciej> no, Google News is confused
  243. # [12:47] <annevk> j/k ;)
  244. # [12:48] <hsivonen> jgraham_: have you figured out if the Ubuntu jumpiness since August is a reported and known problem?
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  248. # [13:36] <webben> hsivonen: Maybe. I wasn't arguing for DE. I was providing hober with examples of how it might be used.
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  263. # [14:57] <annevk> so per http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/core.html DOMTimeStamp should have been Date in ECMAScript bindings
  264. # [14:57] <annevk> but that never got implemented that way :/
  265. # [14:58] <annevk> in any event, it seems that should move to Web IDL just like DOMString
  266. # [14:58] <annevk> should just name those string and timestamp really, but I guess people do not want a largescale s&r
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  269. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> about http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-text/#white-space-rules
  270. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> "A tab (U+0009) is rendered as a horizontal shift that lines up the start edge of the next glyph with the next tab stop. Tab stops occur at points that are multiples of 8 times the width of a space (U+0020) rendered in the block's font from the block's starting content edge."
  271. # [15:04] <annevk> hey mike
  272. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> do any browsers actually do that
  273. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> annevk: hey
  274. # [15:04] <annevk> filing some Web IDL bugs I wonder if they should maybe be emailed to public-script-coord as well
  275. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> yes
  276. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> would be a good idea
  277. # [15:05] <annevk> i think for white-space:pre tabs might be rendered, yes
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  279. # [15:05] <annevk> that is why some browsers have this proprietary (prefixed) tab-size property
  280. # [15:05] <annevk> e.g. -o-tab-size
  281. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> oh yeah
  282. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> that works
  283. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> but white-space-collapse does not
  284. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> that's what I get for reading specs
  285. # [15:07] <annevk> oh, white-space-collapse is some new stuff that nobody does
  286. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> I see
  287. # [15:07] <annevk> kind of wondering why that is being added now
  288. # [15:08] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-128-189-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  289. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> heh, ES5 spec has the typo "hyphon"
  290. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> cute
  291. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> jacobolus: hey, I used some page of yours the other day that I seem to remember finding extremely useful
  292. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> but at the moment I cant remember what page it was
  293. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> ah
  294. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> jacobolus: ah, the pages you have about customizing Cocoa config
  295. # [15:11] * Quits: jacobolu_ (~jacobolus@c-24-128-189-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  296. # [15:11] <jacobolus> MikeSmith: hey, what's up?
  297. # [15:12] <jacobolus> MikeSmith: this one? http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/site/cocoa-text.html
  298. # [15:12] * Joins: ako (~nya@fuld-4d00d355.pool.mediaWays.net)
  299. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> yeah, and this: http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/Site/Cocoa%20Text%20System.html
  300. # [15:12] <jacobolus> MikeSmith: that's a hard link to the same file :)
  301. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> ah
  302. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> anyway, very useful info
  303. # [15:14] <jacobolus> thx
  304. # [15:14] <jacobolus> let me know if anything is confusing, &c.
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  306. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> I think I got everything figured out from that now
  307. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> re-bound my ^y key to cycle through kill ring
  308. # [15:15] <jacobolus> MikeSmith: btw, these might be useful too http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/site/selectors.html and http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/site/system-bindings.html
  309. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> thanks!
  310. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> handn't seen those yet
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  312. # [15:17] <MikeSmith> I did also add a ^W binding to deleteWordBackward already
  313. # [15:17] * ako is now known as aho
  314. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> <manusporny> Ha! The vim editor gets HTML5+RDFa and Microdata support: http://ht.ly/2CXH5 /via @cwaring #rdfa #microdata
  315. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> that's pretty cool
  316. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> adds autocomplete of attribute names
  317. # [15:19] <henrikbjorn> when i launch vim it shows some errors that is removed but the editor finishing loading, is there some place where does get logged ?
  318. # [15:19] <jacobolus> I set it up so that move up down left right is ⌃i ⌃k ⌃l ⌃j and forward/backward by a word is ⌃o ⌃u and to beginning/end of line is ⌃h ⌃;
  319. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> oh, http://github.com/othree/html5.vim says it has ARIA support also
  320. # [15:20] <hsivonen> how odd. a tree builder bugfix I made and that works in Java seems to have regressed a tokenizer behavior on the C++ side
  321. # [15:20] <MikeSmith> jacobolus: oh, those sound good.. Ive been using the default control-option combos, which are a PITA to hit, especially on my Japanese laptop keyboard
  322. # [15:21] <jacobolus> yeah. I don't like moving my hand down to the arrow keys
  323. # [15:21] <jacobolus> and the "emacsish" ⌃a ⌃e &c. are not intuitive
  324. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> I guess I'm used to those from shell
  325. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> but in shell I use esc combos for word movements
  326. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> e.g, esc than b, esc than f
  327. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> henrikbjorn: :messages maybe?
  328. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> hmm, no
  329. # [15:26] <henrikbjorn> nope nothing is happening
  330. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> yeah, that was just guess
  331. # [15:26] <henrikbjorn> okay :)
  332. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> hmm, docs says that should work
  333. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> that and :echo errmsg
  334. # [15:27] <henrikbjorn> nope nothing :S
  335. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> darn
  336. # [15:30] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@EM114-48-41-161.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  337. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: do you know who this is? http://blog.othree.net/
  338. # [15:33] <kennyluck> MikeSmith: A Taiwanese folk I know. Why?
  339. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: dude has developed some HTML5-related software
  340. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> http://github.com/othree/html5.vim
  341. # [15:40] <kennyluck> MikeSmith: Oh, he's a Web Developer. :)
  342. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: hey, btw, about wu wei, you use 無為 in Taiwanese, right? (just like the Japanese word)
  343. # [15:41] <kennyluck> This is something I don't know why. But most of Taiwanese programmers prefer vim over emacs.
  344. # [15:41] <kennyluck> Yes. (I actullay don't know this term appears in Japan)
  345. # [15:41] <annevk> MikeSmith, othree is on this channel
  346. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> instead of 无为 I mean
  347. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> oh
  348. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> othree: thanks for vim stuff
  349. # [15:42] <kennyluck> Do we have a emacs html5 already BTW? :)
  350. # [15:43] <kennyluck> mode, I mean.
  351. # [15:43] <kennyluck> http://github.com/hober/html5-el
  352. # [15:43] <kennyluck> found it. Cool.
  353. # [15:44] <hsivonen> isn't that for XHTML5, though?
  354. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> yeah
  355. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> uses an XML parser
  356. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> but it still is great
  357. # [15:44] <kennyluck> Huh. I see. It does have nxml-mode dependency.
  358. # [15:44] * Joins: jacobolu_ (~jacobolus@c-24-128-189-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  359. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> we should make an nxml-mode for vim
  360. # [15:45] <hsivonen> we should make an incremental HTML5 parser for emacs
  361. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> yeah
  362. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> could maybe use James's nxml code as a starting point
  363. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> his parser code
  364. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> just have to learn emacs lisp
  365. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> your IQ will skyrocket if you learn lisp, I heard
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  369. # [16:14] <hsivonen> Has Chrome 6 gone out of beta yet?
  370. # [16:14] <hsivonen> and Chrome 7 has already branched?
  371. # [16:16] <annevk> didn't they want to release every six weeks?
  372. # [16:16] <annevk> actually, I think Chrome 6 might be out
  373. # [16:16] <hsivonen> oh
  374. # [16:16] <annevk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome#Release_history
  375. # [16:16] <hsivonen> I was wondering if they have two releases that have branched but haven't gone final
  376. # [16:18] <hsivonen> *sigh* at the "Standards" section of the wikipedia article
  377. # [16:19] <annevk> i was just reading that
  378. # [16:19] <evanchooly> 1
  379. # [16:20] <hsivonen> the "Standards" section for Firefox has this wonderful bit: "Firefox also implements[74] a proprietary protocol[92] from Google called "safebrowsing" (used to exchange data related with "phishing and malware protection"), which is not an open standard."
  380. # [16:20] * evanchooly is now known as cheeser
  381. # [16:21] <annevk> so they call out safebrowsing but not XUL, XBL, XPCOM, etc?
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  384. # [16:30] <Rik`_> annevk: btw, @list is now filtering the propositions based on input
  385. # [16:31] <annevk> Ms2ger, hey, welcome back
  386. # [16:31] <Ms2ger> Thanks :)
  387. # [16:32] <annevk> I made a bunch of changes while you were gone, maybe you can review them
  388. # [16:32] * Joins: dio (~dio@ip68-2-59-46.ph.ph.cox.net)
  389. # [16:33] <annevk> I was also wondering if we should file bugs on browser vendors to implement some of the changes to see if such a thing gains any traction
  390. # [16:33] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JulSep/0703.html
  391. # [16:33] <Ms2ger> I'll look at them and reply to your email after I skimmed through the rest of my inbox
  392. # [16:33] * dio is now known as Guest16390
  393. # [16:34] <annevk> e.g. removing xmlVersion, isSupported, etc.
  394. # [16:34] <annevk> Ms2ger, great
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  397. # [16:34] <annevk> Ms2ger, hsivonen, regarding DOM Range, Hixie also suggested moving Selection there
  398. # [16:34] * annevk goes off to do some shopping
  399. # [16:34] <Ms2ger> annevk, I saw that too :)
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  403. # [16:35] <Ms2ger> And hsivonen, I was watching that bug
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  413. # [16:45] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: cool
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  417. # [16:52] <Ms2ger> Oh, fun, Shelby Moore in my bugmail
  418. # [16:53] <erlehmann> HTTP needs a status code for "not here yet"
  419. # [16:53] <erlehmann> (I am on a slow connection and have 333MB of PDFs to upload.)
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  421. # [16:57] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: which bug tracker?
  422. # [16:57] <Ms2ger> Mozilla
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  425. # [16:58] <Ms2ger> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156388
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  462. # [19:52] <AryehGregor> http://www.aregooglesbouncingballshtml5.com/
  463. # [19:54] <aho> balls!
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  465. # [20:02] <erlehmann> balls are touching!
  466. # [20:03] <aho> :v
  467. # [20:06] * jmb^ is now known as jmb
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  472. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> Why does this display with no shadow in a Firefox nightly? data:image/svg+xml,<!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11.dtd"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><defs><filter id="Gaussian_Blur"><feGaussianBlur in="SourceGraphic" stdDeviation="5"/></filter></defs><rect x="20" y="20" width="100" height="100" style="fill:black;filter:url(#Gaussian_Blur)"/></svg>
  473. # [20:32] * Joins: espadrine (~espadrine@acces0670.res.insa-lyon.fr)
  474. # [20:33] * Ms2ger was wondering the same thing
  475. # [20:33] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  476. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> Same in 3.6.
  477. # [20:37] <aho> saving this as svg, however, works: <svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><defs><filter id="Gaussian_Blur"><feGaussianBlur in="SourceGraphic" stdDeviation="5"/></filter></defs><rect x="20" y="20" width="100" height="100" style="fill:black;filter:url(#Gaussian_Blur)"/></svg>
  478. # [20:38] <aho> same thing prefixed with "data:image/svg+xml," does not work
  479. # [20:38] <aho> odd
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  481. # [20:39] <aho> also doesnt work with ff4b6
  482. # [20:40] <aho> works with chrome, parsing error with opera *shrug*
  483. # [20:43] <annevk> Ms2ger, not sure the File API exceptions will stay
  484. # [20:43] <annevk> Ms2ger, that's why I did not add them
  485. # [20:44] <Ms2ger> Sure, but I'd like the list to stay in sync with HTML5
  486. # [20:45] <annevk> hmm, the dependency really should be the other way around, but ok, it'll be fixed eventually
  487. # [20:47] <Ms2ger> Yes, but until then we shouldn't have conflicting requirements
  488. # [20:51] <hsivonen> aho: no fragment id in data URLs
  489. # [20:52] <aho> ah
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The end :)