/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 18 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:03] <BenoitRen> I'm not sure I understand what alternative text to provide for images in galleries of fictional characters.
  6. # [00:03] <AryehGregor> What would you say in place of the pictures if you had to read the page to someone over the phone?
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  8. # [00:04] <BenoitRen> "There are 12 thumbnails of Alisa on the page." (and yes, I just read through the guidelines again :( )
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  12. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> If that's all that the page contains, and the person you're talking to really wants to know what the page contains, you'd probably briefly describe each one.
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  14. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> I mean, frankly it doesn't work well no matter what you do.
  15. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> Gallery pages are constructed specifically to display pictures, you can't replace them by textual descriptions.
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  17. # [00:05] <BenoitRen> Yeah, that's the problem.
  18. # [00:06] <BenoitRen> And a description isn't alternative text.
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  21. # [00:06] <exp> does it really need alternative text then?
  22. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> Between you and me (and whoever is reading the logs so as to quote this at an inopportune moment to discredit me), trying to come up with good alt text here is probably a waste of time, just leave it blank or give a few words for each ("Alisa talking with Bob").
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  24. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> A description can be alternative text. It depends.
  25. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> Some of the alt text given is just descriptions.
  26. # [00:08] <BenoitRen> Hmm, I see.
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  31. # [00:13] <BenoitRen> Thanks AryehGregor. :)
  32. # [00:13] <BenoitRen> Bye.
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  60. # [00:39] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  137. # [02:52] <TabAtkins> Argh, I have too many CDs and games to buy right now. >_< Luckily my birthday's coming up, so I should have some cash to spend.
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  142. # [02:55] <TabAtkins> http://i.imgur.com/G7WyP.gif
  143. # [03:04] <cardona507> TabAtkins: when is your bday? how old are you gonna be?
  144. # [03:04] <TabAtkins> mid november, and 25.
  145. # [03:05] <cardona507> interesting - for some reason I thought you were older than that
  146. # [03:06] <TabAtkins> It is clearly the beard.
  147. # [03:07] <cardona507> or the wealth of hacker knowledge
  148. # [03:09] <TabAtkins> ^_^
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  268. # [11:02] <zcorpan_> annevk: could you point to navigator.resolveURL?
  269. # [11:03] <annevk> what do you mean?
  270. # [11:03] <zcorpan_> i mean i can't find it in the spec
  271. # [11:03] <annevk> oh, it's location, sorry
  272. # [11:03] <annevk> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#dom-location-resolveurl
  273. # [11:04] <zcorpan_> ah
  274. # [11:05] <zcorpan_> WorkerLocation doesn't have it though
  275. # [11:05] <annevk> oh, oversight?
  276. # [11:06] <zcorpan_> dunno
  277. # [11:06] <annevk> as I said, I've not been involved
  278. # [11:07] <annevk> ]http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-November/017275.html
  279. # [11:09] <annevk> ah, it's for passing URLs to workers
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  281. # [11:26] <annevk> AryehGregor, you could just move http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10267 to the WebIDL component of the WebApps WG
  282. # [11:36] <zcorpan_> annevk: setAttributeNS(xmlns_ns, 'xmlns', 'foo') should be allowed, also setAttributeNS(null, 'xmlnslol', 'foo') should be allowed
  283. # [11:37] <annevk> are they not? (but why?)
  284. # [11:37] <annevk> oh, I guess setAttribute should only ban "xmlns" and starts with "xmlns:", not starts with "xmlns"
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  286. # [11:39] <zcorpan_> yeah, and they should be allowed if the namespace argument is right, iirc
  287. # [11:40] <annevk> for compat you mean
  288. # [11:40] <annevk> ?
  289. # [11:41] <annevk> manipulating namespace attributes is an extremely bad idea
  290. # [11:41] <zcorpan_> it's what browsers do (iirc), dunno if it's required for compat
  291. # [11:41] <annevk> oh sure
  292. # [11:41] <annevk> but it doesn't make sense
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  301. # [12:18] <annevk> using the correct dashes is tricky
  302. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> I'm curious what editing apps others use for editing javascript
  303. # [12:21] <annevk> I use TextWrangler at the moment, but then I do not code anything serious in JavaScript...
  304. # [12:22] <annevk> or at all, really :)
  305. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> I'm using vim but I guess I would be nice to have something that docs better completion
  306. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> for Java I have this "eclim" thing set up that hooks vim into eclipse
  307. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> I suppose I could try that for js files and see see what I get
  308. # [12:24] <annevk> I wonder if there've been studies done to how much time that actually buys you
  309. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> *does better completion
  310. # [12:25] <annevk> it seems to me that figuring things out is the main problem; writing it down not so much
  311. # [12:26] <annevk> but maybe if you're not familiar with the APIs it helps
  312. # [12:26] <annevk> if the autocompletion comes with a few lines of documentation
  313. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> I think for the Java case, it buys a lot -- because of relatively high overhead (for lack of a better word) of programming in Java
  314. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> java is really unforgiving
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  316. # [12:28] <MikeSmith_> and I find at least that using eclipse makes it a lot easier to catch certain kinds of problems
  317. # [12:28] <MikeSmith_> for java I mean
  318. # [12:28] <MikeSmith_> js is a lot different language of course
  319. # [12:30] <MikeSmith_> but I've gotten used to checking stuff using the js interpreter consoles like in firebug and web inspector and dragonfly
  320. # [12:30] <MikeSmith_> and node.js shell
  321. # [12:30] <MikeSmith_> and having completion on, e.g., DOM methods
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  324. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> so having it for editing would seem like a plus
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  327. # [12:38] <Moo^> MikeSmith: Aptana Studio (Eclipse distribution for web developers) comes with decent Javascript editor which can do some static analysis
  328. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> Moo^: thanks
  329. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> I seem to remember reading about that somewhere else as well
  330. # [12:39] <Moo^> MikeSmith: and I assume you are used to Eclipse so it is a perfect fit for you
  331. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> well, Eclipse itself is not a perfect fit for me
  332. # [12:41] <MikeSmith> I started using Eclipse just for java editing
  333. # [12:41] <MikeSmith> and I don't actually use Eclipse directly
  334. # [12:41] <MikeSmith> I use vim
  335. # [12:41] <MikeSmith> and I essentially run eclipse headless, with it hooked into vim through this eclim thing
  336. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> anyway, I was also just trying DashCode
  337. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> by accident
  338. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> because that seems to be what my OSX environment is set up to use by default for javascript
  339. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> and it actually seems to have pretty extensive built-in completion
  340. # [12:51] <annevk> http://iscrockford.partofhtml5.com/ haha
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  342. # [12:56] <JerichoM> hey lhnz
  343. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> Crockford _parts_ HTML5 -- like Moses parting the Red Sea
  344. # [12:56] <annevk> that site has terrible markup btw
  345. # [12:57] <annevk> http://areunicorns.partofhtml5.com/ doesn't even validate
  346. # [12:57] <JerichoM> did you enjoy port scanning me?
  347. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> http://isvalidation.partofhtml5.com would be a good one
  348. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw, I was using Berjon's respec thing recently and noticed something that is a serious misfeature in it
  349. # [13:01] * Quits: svl (~me@host86-142-128-119.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  350. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> and I think maybe something like it is in anolis and the css3 postprocessor thing
  351. # [13:01] * Quits: peterhil (~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  352. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> which is, it tries to turn instances of "[[foo]]" into bibliographic citations
  353. # [13:02] * Joins: peterhil (~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  354. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> the whole thing of using macros like that -- or whatever the hell people call them -- is just fricking dumb
  355. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> I mean to do it in an HTML file
  356. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> this is what we have markup for
  357. # [13:04] <annevk> ms2ger added a <span data-anolis-ref> feature to Anolis (or some such; see Web DOM Core source file)
  358. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> good
  359. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> because the problem with that asshatted [[foo]] stuff is, what happens if the source that you're using refspec or whatever to generate output from actually already uses doubled square brackets to mean something?
  360. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> which is not a hypothetical problem
  361. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> case in point is the ES5 spec
  362. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> which has 1243 instances of terms in double square brackets
  363. # [13:09] <JerichoM> lol, lhnz... lol a PSH
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  371. # [13:31] <annevk> mijn.ing.nl really should use autofocus=""
  372. # [13:31] <annevk> it always screws up my focus after I'm almost done having me overwrite my username with part of my password -- so annoying
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  379. # [13:47] <david_carlisle> <MikeSmith> this is what we have markup for
  380. # [13:48] <david_carlisle> you should use xmlspec and xslt, using XML makes you a happier person
  381. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> heh
  382. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: don't tell me you're actually using xmlspec?
  383. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> if so, I think you must be the the last one using it :)
  384. # [13:49] <hsivonen> what does xmlspec solve that HTML+Anolis don't?
  385. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> it seems like nobody's been maintaining that in a long time
  386. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: Robin Berjon's respec is worth taking a look at
  387. # [13:50] <david_carlisle> Not actually tried anolis but the idea of using html in authoring is just scary.
  388. # [13:50] <david_carlisle> xmlspec is extensively maintained but massively forked
  389. # [13:50] <david_carlisle> mathml has a fork
  390. # [13:51] <david_carlisle> xslt/xquery have one
  391. # [13:51] <david_carlisle> xml itself uses it still I think
  392. # [13:51] <david_carlisle> and so it goes on
  393. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> great thing about respec is it doesn't require you to install anything
  394. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> the transformation is all done inside your browser
  395. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> it gives you a way to save a copy of the generated DOM
  396. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> this reminds me, Google Docs has a better way
  397. # [13:52] <david_carlisle> could respec pull all the data out of unicode.xml to make th mathml operator dictionary on the fly, or similarly typeset all the character tables in the xml entites spec (just from the same markup) or colour an cross link a relanx ng file?
  398. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> if you want to save a copy of a document, it generates it as a download
  399. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> respec should do that same kind of download thing
  400. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: sure it could
  401. # [13:53] <david_carlisle> "colud" but do it
  402. # [13:54] * jacobolu_ is now known as jacobolus
  403. # [13:54] <david_carlisle> anyway I want to type my specs in emacs (I saw earlier you are a vim user, so you wouldn't understand the love)
  404. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> I used to use emacs a lot too
  405. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> nxml-mode
  406. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> I may start using it again more, once hober finishes his elisp text/html parser
  407. # [13:55] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
  408. # [13:55] <david_carlisle> yes I saw that...
  409. # [13:56] <david_carlisle> I just finally this year (after 23 years) cracked and stopped using email as my regular mail client
  410. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> "email" is the name of an actual app?
  411. # [13:56] <david_carlisle> sorry emacs not email
  412. # [13:57] <david_carlisle> I can't type:-)
  413. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> ah
  414. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> yeah, I tried that for a while
  415. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> GNUs
  416. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> I think Haakon still uses Emacs for mail
  417. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> Gnus or something
  418. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle, hsivonen : while you're both here, have you guys chatted more about annotation-xml handling?
  419. # [13:58] * MikeSmith is not caught up on bug mail
  420. # [13:59] <david_carlisle> well we had a conversation the other day somewhere (here? in mail, can't remeber)
  421. # [14:00] <david_carlisle> I think/hope the outcome is that he's going to look again if the spec change as outlined by hixie in the bug entry could work in FF4 timeframe
  422. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> last I saw was Henri's comment http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9887#c27
  423. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> and Simon's http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9887#c28
  424. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> Simon: "Another option is to make <annotation-xml><div> special."
  425. # [14:02] <david_carlisle> hang on 'll see if I can find the thread...
  426. # [14:05] <david_carlisle> from about here
  427. # [14:05] <david_carlisle> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100913#l-423
  428. # [14:05] <david_carlisle> to about here
  429. # [14:05] <david_carlisle> hsivonen> well, I suppose I should go ahead and implement it soonish
  430. # [14:12] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~henrik@c83-249-72-254.bredband.comhem.se) (Quit: henrikbjorn)
  431. # [14:27] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: what kind of implementation you mean/
  432. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> MathML spec change?
  433. # [14:33] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: sorry, that was quoting Henri saying he should try implenting the html5 parser change,
  434. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> ah
  435. # [14:35] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: mathML spec hopefully won't change as we're just waiting for the OK from w3C to publish, AC votes are all in, etc, so basically we're done
  436. # [14:35] <hsivonen> btw, was there a problem with Simon's <div> idea?
  437. # [14:41] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: Hi, you're there, probably not, both are just masking the real problem that the really isn't any reason for the parser to abort the math element unless it's doing fixup for mis-nested tagging or something. The attribute version was suggested earlier and now has the advantage the the Math WG signed off on it, checked all the examples in the mathml spec would actually work, etc....
  438. # [14:41] <david_carlisle> ...without looking too deeply I see
  439. # [14:41] <david_carlisle> http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML3/chapter6.html#interf.graphics
  440. # [14:41] <david_carlisle> which would fail?
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  444. # [14:46] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: yeah, that would fail
  445. # [14:47] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: though the problem goes away as SVG support becomes ubiquitous and people no longer care about bitmap fallback
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  447. # [14:49] <david_carlisle> hsivonen; yes but as I said in the earlier irc thread, fallback is just one possible use of an annotation.
  448. # [14:49] <david_carlisle> especially once math in text/html becomes possible, far more interesting annotations are structured proof hints etc
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  451. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: not to (re)start an argument here, but as far as "masking the real problem", the real problem is arguably that the annotation-xml design does not lead to ease of implementation
  452. # [14:55] <david_carlisle> annotation-xml really should not be complicated, the only thing that the parser has to do with it is get to the end of it and stuff the data somewhere accessible, honestly the fact that it is proving difficult should be seen as a problem with the html5 parser's intricate rules for foreign content, not a problem with annotation-xml. The currently proposed solution is to make the parser have...
  453. # [14:55] <david_carlisle> ...even more intricate rules to hide some of the weirdness generated by the original rules, that wouldn't have been my choice, but it isn't my call,
  454. # [14:55] <david_carlisle> I can live with it
  455. # [14:56] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: the HTML5 parser's fogeign content support is really designed for SVG and form MathML that doesn't use HTML annotations
  456. # [14:57] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: at the time of designing it, annotation-xml was seen as a way to include semantic mathml and as a way to hack in SVG as seen on Jacques Distler's blog
  457. # [14:57] <david_carlisle> its foreign object thing isn't so different is it?
  458. # [14:58] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: it's fundamentally different
  459. # [14:58] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: because it doesn't need to support non-<svg> SVG children
  460. # [14:58] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: but annotation-xml needs to support non-<math> MathML children
  461. # [14:58] <hsivonen> that's the problem
  462. # [14:59] <hsivonen> Jacques Distler's blog is the showcase of how MathML actually gets used, and AFAIK, there's no XHTML inside annotation-xml on his blog
  463. # [14:59] <hsivonen> so...
  464. # [14:59] <david_carlisle> That's a very artificial problem though, caused by the strangeness elsewhere in the html5 parser rules.
  465. # [14:59] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: what strangeness?
  466. # [15:00] <hsivonen> the concept is not strange at all: 1) the parser starts in an HTML scope. 2) <svg> and <math> switch to SVG or MathML scope 3) certain elements open a nested HTML scope
  467. # [15:01] <hsivonen> the problem is that annotation-xml doesn't know whether it wants to be a nested HTML scope or not
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  469. # [15:02] <david_carlisle> the fact that /> doesn't do what one might expect (you may have needed to special case script and other limited things for security) but if /> worked as an empty element on general elements (and the html parser didn't re-arrange html elements out of same) but...
  470. # [15:02] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: that would still leave the namespace problem
  471. # [15:02] <david_carlisle> ... I'm really not asking that the entire html5 parser design be ripped up now, so we are where we are
  472. # [15:02] <david_carlisle> namespaces: who cares;-)
  473. # [15:02] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: if we are doing hypotheticals, we wouldn't have this problem it Namespaces didn't exist
  474. # [15:04] <david_carlisle> Well personally I;d have been happy enough if the rule was that the html parser didn't do namespaces, and so if you wanted to namespace you dom fragments you'd have tto post process them in script. At least that way you would have the correct tree structure to work with
  475. # [15:05] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: that would have required drastic changes to e.g. Gecko's MathML implementation
  476. # [15:05] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: chameleon namespaces are bad
  477. # [15:05] <david_carlisle> Browsers come and go, documents last for thousands of years
  478. # [15:06] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: right, so if you want to support existing XML MathML content, you have to support the non-HTML namespace
  479. # [15:06] <hsivonen> if you also want to support mathml local names in the HTML namespace, you've got chameleon namespaces, which are bad
  480. # [15:07] * Philip` notes that IE6 seems likely to last for thousands of years
  481. # [15:07] <david_carlisle> But no, you could have still had the rule that <math> flipped in the mathml namespace, and in practice the actual rules would be more complicated that can be specced in a couple of lines of irc grumbe, but... I just wish the world was different
  482. # [15:08] <david_carlisle> and /> should be empty elements even now, so there.
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  484. # [15:19] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: isn't it the case that if svg's foreign object element has any non-svg non xhtml xml then because of /> the tree will be incorrectly parsed as it will be parsed as html scope?
  485. # [15:20] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: the only other possibility is <math>, and then you are in a math scope, so all is good
  486. # [15:20] <hsivonen> and /> on <svg/> and <math/> themselves is honored
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  488. # [15:23] <david_carlisle> That isn't what the svg spec says, it says you can put any well formed xml in there. What you mean is the only other possibility that works is math, what you are saying is that if there is other cml guarded by a switch something like
  489. # [15:23] <david_carlisle> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/extend.html#ForeignObjectElement
  490. # [15:23] <david_carlisle> then the html parser will do something strange most likely, but such other html just isn't supported.
  491. # [15:23] <david_carlisle> this is not much different than annotation-xml, perhaps they have just complained less
  492. # [15:24] <david_carlisle> sorry, "such other xml"
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  496. # [15:28] <david_carlisle> the problem is less for foreignobject as the expectation there is that the extended markup is rendered so in a browser context limiting to those vocabularies that can be rendered is perhaps reasonable, but that could be some home-brew xml css styled, for annotation-xml as the expectation isn't to render it it is less acceptable to restrict to the browsers native rendering vocabularies
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  504. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> for anybody who might care: about my ramblings earlier on trying to find ways to get decent completion when editing javascript, I installed the "Eclipse IDE for JavaScript Web Developers" flavor of eclipse
  505. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> and I find it has "libraries" that enable completion for standard DOM interfaces
  506. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> in addition to ones for built-in Javascript objects
  507. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> and it works as expected in vim through eclim
  508. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> do everything is fine and dandy
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  515. # [16:53] <jgraham> MikeSmith: You tried emacs + js2-mode for javascript? It rocks
  516. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> not tried it yet
  517. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> oh
  518. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> Steve Yegge
  519. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> cools
  520. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> *cool
  521. # [16:56] <jgraham> I'm not sure how much autocomplete it has; I mainly use it for the awesome highlighting, indentation and useful warning messages
  522. # [16:58] <jgraham> (in general my emacs-fu with autocomplete is limited to meta-/)
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  597. # [22:31] * gsnedders should try and work out how readonly parent/top/self actually are…
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  601. # [23:21] <annevk> oh god, Paul Duffin just said lack of versioning is the problem
  602. # [23:21] <annevk> haha
  603. # [23:21] <annevk> guess I'll leave that thread to someone else
  604. # [23:22] <annevk> can't really explain everything all over again whenever someone does not do any research
  605. # [23:22] * gsnedders wonders whether it's worthwhile pointing to XHTML 1.0 as an example of using versioning to introduce backwards-incompatible changes
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  609. # [23:47] <hsivonen> you should write a 386 post about version once and then drop the URL everywhere
  610. # [23:47] <hsivonen> *versioning
  611. # [23:49] <annevk> I guess, but it's hard
  612. # [23:49] <annevk> but it should be done, yes, at some point
  613. # [23:49] <annevk> because clearly this does not scale
  614. # [23:50] <annevk> but summarizing x years of experience on a post-it is tricky :)
  615. # [23:52] <gsnedders> annevk: Also: don't lead me into reading more Murakami. I already have a full-time university course and a part-time job. Your blog is dangerous. :P
  616. # [23:53] <annevk> heh, you can block the URL :)
  617. # [23:54] <jgraham> After Dark is rather wonderful though
  618. # [23:55] <jgraham> Who is Paul Duffin and where is he bein misinformed about versioning?
  619. # [23:58] <annevk> www-style
  620. # [23:58] <annevk> see the namespace thread
  621. # Session Close: Sun Sep 19 00:00:00 2010

The end :)