/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-21 / end

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  71. # [02:11] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/mattmay/status/25070606712
  72. # [02:11] <MikeSmith> 「Are web devs REALLY that afraid of namespaces? Only people I've heard complain about it are (or were) browser devs. http://bit.ly/b99D0I 」
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  75. # [02:12] <tabatkins> To be honest, that's probably because most web authors don't know what namespaces are. *At best*, they're just part of the copypasta header they use on every page without knowing what it means.
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  78. # [02:17] <MikeSmith> sicking: ↑
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  81. # [02:18] <sicking> MikeSmith: i seem to be lacking the scrollback you're pointing to
  82. # [02:18] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/mattmay/status/25070606712
  83. # [02:18] <MikeSmith> 「Are web devs REALLY that afraid of namespaces? Only people I've heard complain about it are (or were) browser devs. http://bit.ly/b99D0I 」
  84. # [02:19] <MikeSmith> …which cites your recent message on the subject
  85. # [02:19] <AryehGregor> "Waiting for a2.twimg.com..."
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  87. # [02:20] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: hey~ long time no talk — I seem to not be on here at the same time as you lately
  88. # [02:20] <MikeSmith> hope things are going well for your
  89. # [02:20] <MikeSmith> *you
  90. # [02:22] <AryehGregor> They are, thanks.
  91. # [02:22] <AryehGregor> Pretty sure we've talked at some point in the last couple of weeks.
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  96. # [02:28] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: ok — I guess it's due to my "long term loss of short term memory" issue
  97. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> I remember stuff better that happened 2 months ago than I do from 2 weeks ago…
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  100. # [02:31] <sicking> hrm, i keep loosing connection :(
  101. # [02:32] <AryehGregor> sicking, would you be a good person to review https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=586763, once I have a patch that's reviewable?
  102. # [02:33] <sicking> AryehGregor: sure
  103. # [02:33] <AryehGregor> Okay, thanks.
  104. # [02:33] <sicking> AryehGregor: though i'll probably check against spec rather than against other impls
  105. # [02:33] <AryehGregor> I'm doing both.
  106. # [02:34] <sicking> AryehGregor: if gecko and other browsers disagree, and there's a very logical default, then we should probably use the logical one
  107. # [02:34] <AryehGregor> (and deciding what seems most reasonable when there's disagreement)
  108. # [02:34] <AryehGregor> Yes, that's the principle I'm abiding by.
  109. # [02:34] <AryehGregor> I've got all the rationale for my changes in the bug, I think.
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  124. # [03:11] <AryehGregor> sicking, okay, I've got a patch there for you to review. I've CC'd you.
  125. # [03:22] <sicking> AryehGregor: r? me so that it ends up in my queue
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  137. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> is it possible to change the width of the line that's rendered for <del> text content?
  138. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> text-decoration=line-through
  139. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> ah, ok
  140. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#text-decoration
  141. # [03:59] <MikeSmith> text-decoration: underline;
  142. # [03:59] <MikeSmith> text-decoration: navy dotted underline; /* Ignored in CSS1/CSS2 UAs */
  143. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> hmm
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  145. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> that still doesn't allow me to set the thickness
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  148. # [04:11] <jgornick> Hey guys, quick question... Attributes values can't have escaped strings like: <myelement myattribute="\"this is a test\"" /> the value needs to be HTML entity encoded?
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  153. # [04:39] <MikeSmith> jgornick: yeah
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  176. # [06:34] <tw2113> good evening
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  215. # [09:34] <jgraham> Hmm, element creation is atomic from the point of view of the spec, so I can't see how you could get different behaviour depending on attribute order
  216. # [09:34] <jgraham> Or am I missing something?
  217. # [09:34] <jgraham> (latest message on whatwg@)
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  223. # [09:51] <Peter-> annevk: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46123
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  231. # [12:06] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  232. # [12:06] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  236. # [12:27] <gsnedders> Oh yay! Microsoft Office Outlook Web Access!
  237. # [12:28] <jgraham> gsnedders: May I be the first to offer my commiserations?
  238. # [12:29] <jgraham> (presumably this is to encourage you not to use your university mail account? Or to run an illicit webmail server of your own?)
  239. # [12:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: Encourage you to not use your university mail account where they send important stuff.
  240. # [12:33] * gsnedders has already missed an important email on his second day
  241. # [12:33] <gsnedders> Oh well.
  242. # [12:33] <jgraham> Presumably you get imap access? I mean they're not *insane*, right?
  243. # [12:34] <Ms2ger> Probably not
  244. # [12:34] <gsnedders> jgraham: IMAP access? You assume they're sane. :)
  245. # [12:34] <annevk> unknown use cases from the future
  246. # [12:35] <gsnedders> So, um, it uses an Exchange server within the univeristy's internal network. So, setup VPN and use IMAP to access the Exchange server? This is totally undocumented, but the "about" page in the webmail gives enough information to set this up I think…
  247. # [12:35] <annevk> please make them work now
  248. # [12:35] <annevk> o_O
  249. # [12:36] * Twisol is now known as Twisol|snoozing
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  251. # [12:38] <jgraham> gsnedders: You are seriously telling me that you can't just connect to imap.gla.ac.uk:443 and log in?
  252. # [12:38] <hsivonen> gsnedders: does OWA work in Opera?
  253. # [12:38] <gsnedders> jgraham: Seriously.
  254. # [12:39] <gsnedders> hsivonen: OWA?
  255. # [12:39] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Outlook Web App?
  256. # [12:39] <jgraham> gsnedders: Outlook Web Access
  257. # [12:39] <gsnedders> hsivonen: It appears to.
  258. # [12:39] * Quits: SecretAgent (sa@quake.nitemare.name) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  259. # [12:39] <jgraham> gsnedders: Than is in-fucking-sane. Are you sure the CS department don't have their own mail server?
  260. # [12:40] <jgraham> I would pretty much expect them to not put up with the setup you jut described
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  262. # [12:40] <gsnedders> hsivonen: At least in the Light version (this is Outlook 2007)
  263. # [12:40] <gsnedders> jgraham: Staff have an entirely separate system which allows IMAP.
  264. # [12:40] <gsnedders> jgraham: So, uh, I guess no staff member has cared enough to get it set up.
  265. # [12:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: There's no separate CS server at all.
  266. # [12:41] <gsnedders> Anyhow, I have a CS lecture to get to… somewhere.
  267. # [12:41] * gsnedders knows what building, but that's all
  268. # [12:41] <Philip`> Look for other confused-looking people, and follow them
  269. # [12:41] <hsivonen> gsnedders: is "light" version something non-Ajaxy?
  270. # [12:42] <jgraham> Your homepage suffers from xkcd:773
  271. # [12:42] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I wasn't paying much attention.
  272. # [12:42] <hsivonen> does Opera support insertAdjacentHTML?
  273. # [12:42] <gsnedders> hsivonen: But I think it does a bit
  274. # [12:42] <gsnedders> IIRC no
  275. # [12:42] <gsnedders> Anyhow, I'm off.
  276. # [12:43] <hsivonen> I'm just wondering how OWA could work in Opera unless they serve different code given OWA's reliance of createContextualFragment quirkiness when the context is "html"
  277. # [12:44] <jgraham> http://www.gla.ac.uk/services/it/forstudents/email/clients/
  278. # [12:44] <jgraham> That could be wrong of course
  279. # [12:44] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks for the link. You can probably guess what my remarks here would be if the document weren't secret.
  280. # [12:46] <jgraham> link?
  281. # [12:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: http://www.w3.org/2010/07/WAI-Activities-DoC
  282. # [12:50] <hsivonen> It's ridiculous that Flash Player on Mac doesn't have an autoupdater
  283. # [12:50] <hsivonen> (or if it does, it's not working)
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  295. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> if I have a position=absolute element and its height is greater than the height of the viewport, how do I get a browser to enable scrolling within it?
  296. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> that is, if I also have height=auto on the element
  297. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> I tried overflow-y=scroll but that doesn't work unless I also set an explicit height
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  299. # [13:25] <jgraham> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/bz/archives/020683.html is funny
  300. # [13:26] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: Would max-height: 100% work?
  301. # [13:27] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: will give it a try
  302. # [13:28] <MikeSmith> hmm, that causes it to be rendered at only 24 px or so
  303. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> due to the way I have it marked up, I guess
  304. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> maybe I can try making it draggable
  305. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> hey, that works
  306. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> it's better than scroll bars too
  307. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> I hate scroll bars
  308. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> don't know if a UX professional would judge it to be good or not
  309. # [13:31] <hsivonen> jgraham: the comments are disturbing
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  311. # [13:32] <Dashiva> When in doubt, "This site works best in 1920x1080"
  312. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> heh
  313. # [13:35] <hsivonen> jgraham: are you still experiencing the Ubuntu jumpiness during CPU-intensive tasks?
  314. # [13:36] <hsivonen> jgraham: as of today, things look good to me...
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  316. # [13:39] <jgraham> hsivonen: It got better a while back when I rebooted
  317. # [13:39] <jgraham> Although it could just be less memory pressure now
  318. # [13:39] <MikeSmith> foolip: you there?
  319. # [13:41] <hsivonen> jgraham: good point.
  320. # [13:42] <hsivonen> jgraham: I wonder if crashing X or suspend/resume have the same effect as rebooting
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  330. # [14:10] <annevk> jgraham, especially the comments
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  332. # [14:16] <foolip> MikeSmith, I'm here
  333. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> foolip: hey
  334. # [14:17] <MikeSmith> so I did briefly turn off bugmail to public-html
  335. # [14:17] <foolip> ok
  336. # [14:17] <MikeSmith> but I was told to turn it back on
  337. # [14:17] <MikeSmith> and there has been a subsequent discussion on public-html
  338. # [14:18] <foolip> ok, wasn't the idea to send mail for new bugs?
  339. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> the problem with that is that it will also send notifications for spam
  340. # [14:18] <foolip> I think I've read all of that discussion
  341. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> OK
  342. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> foolip: if you would comment on that thread, that'd be great
  343. # [14:19] <foolip> as I remember, there was no controversy to have an opinion on?
  344. # [14:19] <foolip> will look again
  345. # [14:20] <annevk> MikeSmith, there's only very little spam
  346. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> controversy is just about that level of bug notifications is appropriate for the list
  347. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, true
  348. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> currently at least
  349. # [14:20] <foolip> what was the name of the thread?
  350. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> annevk: so as long as people can live with that small amount, I guess we can re-configure to have it send notices only for new bugs
  351. # [14:21] <foolip> if spam is a problem, can't we make bugmail be moderated, or will that double the amount of time spent on spam by someone?
  352. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> foolip: I will get you a url to archive
  353. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> no, I really don't want to make it moderated
  354. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> I don't think there's any way I can enable non-team moderator access to the list admin UI
  355. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> so it would mean I'd get stuck with moderating it all
  356. # [14:22] <foolip> oh well
  357. # [14:22] <virtuelv> whoah
  358. # [14:23] <virtuelv> everyone turn off JS on twitter
  359. # [14:23] <virtuelv> http://oh.no/#"@onmouseover=";alert('xss')" does what you hope it wouldn't
  360. # [14:23] <virtuelv> it also allows style
  361. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> foolip: heh, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/thread.html#msg133
  362. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> the thread is "Bug mail (Was: [Bug 10479] add role=radiogroup to details element)"
  363. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> foolip: you initiated it :)
  364. # [14:25] <foolip> yes, I've found it
  365. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: wow
  366. # [14:25] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: yup
  367. # [14:25] <virtuelv> it seems like they're failing input validation 101
  368. # [14:26] <virtuelv> which, in this case be, "validate the generated output"
  369. # [14:26] <foolip> MikeSmith, is it othermaciej's suggestion you want a comment on?
  370. # [14:27] <MikeSmith> foolip: yeah please
  371. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> I think that asking the people who are still actively reading the list what their opinion is about the bugmail settings is not a complete answer
  372. # [14:28] <foolip> hehe
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  387. # [15:02] <hsivonen> the Old Twitter unescaped HTML named character references, so it seems that keeping plain text plain isn't twitter's strong point
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  392. # [15:07] <annevk> tomorrow I'm gonna present at a Flex meeting at Adobe
  393. # [15:07] <annevk> on HTML5
  394. # [15:07] <annevk> ordering bulletproof vests online is tricky
  395. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> just be prepared to call in the air strike at the appropriate time
  396. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> and make sure to get Kurtz's diary before you escape
  397. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> a lot of gamers miss that part
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  400. # [15:13] <annevk> I don't really know what to say... "Hi, my name is Anne; together with some other people I work on HTML5. We set out six years to eat your lunch..."
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  403. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> s/eat your lunch/drink your milkshake/
  404. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> but anyway that weren't the plan that was set out with back then
  405. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> afaict
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  407. # [15:17] * MikeSmith is listening to Teenage Dream by T. Rex from Zinc Alloy and the Hidden Riders of Tomorrow (Deluxe Version) (✮✮✮✮✮)
  408. # [15:17] <MikeSmith> annevk: ↑
  409. # [15:18] <annevk> certainly was in the back of my mind
  410. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> that song is about the Plan
  411. # [15:18] <annevk> heh
  412. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> "Whatever happened to the teenage dream?"
  413. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> I am pretty sure that is the official theme song for The Plan
  414. # [15:20] <hsivonen> annevk: I thought Web Apps 1.0 wasn't Flash-motivated but Avalon-motivated
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  416. # [15:21] * weinig|zZz is now known as weinig
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  418. # [15:22] <annevk> sorry, yeah, I meant plugins in general
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  420. # [15:24] * MikeSmith is listening to This Year by The Thrills from Teenager (✮✮✮✮✮)
  421. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> that's the song for the New Plan
  422. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> "I know, this year could be our year, this year could be our year"
  423. # [15:26] <annevk> I'm surprised Opera supports all this color crap you keep sending me
  424. # [15:26] <annevk> I have no idea how to generate that myself :)
  425. # [15:27] <annevk> meanwhile krijnh seems to simply strip out the markup it uses
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  431. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> hmm, is setting draggable=true on an element not sufficient for making it draggable?
  432. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> something else I need to set?
  433. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> I mean, just for making it draggable -- I don't actually need to drop it anywhere in particular
  434. # [15:36] <MikeSmith> just to drag it to read the part that overflowed outside the viewport
  435. # [15:36] <MikeSmith> so, dragging it as an alternative to scrolling
  436. # [15:36] <annevk> might only work in Firefox?
  437. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> I thought everybody had some degree of drag-n-drop implemented at this point?
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  439. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> after messing with this, I have to say, the dragging metaphor seems a lot more real-world-like natural than scrollbarring
  440. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> from a UX point of view, scrollbarring seems really suboptimal
  441. # [15:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: otoh, not having a clue about scrollable areas is bad UX, too
  442. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> not having a clue?
  443. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> a UI clue you mean?
  444. # [15:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: right
  445. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> yeah, true
  446. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> what I did for that is change the cursor
  447. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> to "move"
  448. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> but I guess it should have some more obvious visual clue as weel
  449. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> that is, one that doesn't require hovering over the element first
  450. # [15:43] <Philip`> PDF readers seem to have done the drag-to-scroll thing since forever, but it hasn't really caught on anywhere else
  451. # [15:43] <Philip`> maybe because it conflicts with drag-to-select-text
  452. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I guess I have noticed that in PDF readers yet
  453. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> particular readers? does Acrobat do that?
  454. # [15:45] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@p2113-ipbf4405marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  455. # [15:45] <Philip`> Yes
  456. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> ok
  457. # [15:45] <Philip`> (when you've got the hand tool selected, not the text-selection tool)
  458. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> ok
  459. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> I think the PDF format is way underappreciated
  460. # [15:47] * MikeSmith is not a PDF-basher
  461. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> like, the stuff generated out of ConTeXt
  462. # [15:48] <Philip`> When we got electronic whiteboards (basically a projector plus touch-sensitive board) at school, one of the teachers seemed to love using it to display PDF files since he could use his real hand to drag the document up and down the board
  463. # [15:48] <hsivonen> how is the twitter XSS being exploited?
  464. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> and pdfTeX
  465. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> Philip`: yeah, like that
  466. # [15:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the biggest flaw of PDF itself is it's main feature: that the text doesn't reflow
  467. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> yup
  468. # [15:49] <hsivonen> (yes, I know about the accessibility stuff. It doesn't really count here)
  469. # [15:50] <hsivonen> other than that, the biggest flaw of PDF is Adobe Reader
  470. # [15:50] <Philip`> I've never really been concerned about lack of reflow
  471. # [15:50] <Philip`> since it's trivial to zoom and scroll to read whatever I need
  472. # [15:50] <jgraham> I find the inability to select text in logical order to be the worst thing
  473. # [15:50] <jgraham> Lack of reflow is second
  474. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> non-reflow-as-feature is not unique to PDF -- it's something that people also want for HTML-based presentations and such
  475. # [15:51] <annevk> need for a plugin first
  476. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> e.g., scribd
  477. # [15:51] <annevk> imo
  478. # [15:51] <hsivonen> I think Adobe Reader is the worst. Then lack of reflow when the document should have been published as HTML instead. then text selection.
  479. # [15:51] <jgraham> annevk: I'm not really interested as PDF-as-part-of-the-web so have never used a plugin
  480. # [15:51] <hsivonen> fourth the occasional occurrence of PDFs that come from 90s workflows and require font magic that only Adobe Reader does
  481. # [15:52] <Philip`> The most frequent pain I encounter is copying-and-pasting fl ligatures - it ought to get automatically decomposed but doesn't (at least in Okular)
  482. # [15:52] <hsivonen> jgraham: I want native PDF support in Firefox but I haven't used a plug-in since I decided the Adobe was too unstable in the Netscape 2.0 days
  483. # [15:53] <jgraham> I don't want to encourasge people to use PDF on the web
  484. # [15:53] <hsivonen> PDF 1.4: good
  485. # [15:53] <jgraham> So I don't want native support
  486. # [15:53] <hsivonen> Adobe Reader: bad
  487. # [15:54] <jgraham> Since it isn't really a format that plays well with the whole web ideal
  488. # [15:54] <Philip`> Is Google's in-browser PDF renderer considered a good thing or a bad thing?
  489. # [15:54] <Philip`> (The one you get when you say "View" on PDF attachments in Gmail)
  490. # [15:54] <jgraham> (what I really want is TeX-quality typography in HTML, including for maths, so that people stop using PDF for e.g. scientific papers)
  491. # [15:55] <hsivonen> jgraham: I want that, too
  492. # [15:55] <Philip`> jgraham: You'd probably have to solve diagrams and graphs in HTML, too
  493. # [15:55] <jgraham> Philip`: SVG
  494. # [15:55] <jgraham> In principle
  495. # [15:56] <jgraham> I mean it is not a-priori obvious that outputting a diagram to SVG has to be worse than outputting it to PDF
  496. # [15:56] <jgraham> Although that turns out to be true with much current content-creation software
  497. # [15:56] <Philip`> You need the text and the shapes to be aligned correctly, which means you need to know the font metrics in advance
  498. # [15:57] <Philip`> and you want the text to match the text in the rest of the document else it looks ugly
  499. # [15:57] <jgraham> Right, but doesn't @font-face solve that?
  500. # [15:57] <jgraham> Philip`: A surprising number of papers are ugly through not matching text in figures / body
  501. # [15:57] <Philip`> Probably not unless all platforms' font renderers use precisely the same metrics
  502. # [15:57] <hsivonen> jgraham: only for fonts with reasonable licenses
  503. # [15:58] <Philip`> (which they probably don't, because of sub-pixel positioning etc)
  504. # [15:58] <hsivonen> for fonts with unreasonable licenses, we really need the ability for SVG paths to have text alternatives
  505. # [15:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: that's an issue with PDF as well
  506. # [15:58] <jgraham> Philip`: I expect you can get good enough compared to the aesthetic taste of most scientists
  507. # [15:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: oops, I misread what you said
  508. # [15:58] <Philip`> jgraham: Lots are ugly, but I'd prefer not to switch to a technology that forces all to be ugly
  509. # [15:59] <jgraham> Philip`: I would trade a little ugliness for much improved usability
  510. # [15:59] <hsivonen> does SVG already support positioning individual glyphs if you want to do that?
  511. # [15:59] * karlushi guesses he missed the twitter xss.
  512. # [15:59] <Philip`> I suppose what I'd really want is a high-quality TikZ-to-SVG-and-MathML converter, and then I'd be happy
  513. # [16:00] <hsivonen> karlushi: I wonder if it was on #newtwitter only. I'm still on old twitter.
  514. # [16:00] <jgraham> hsivonen: I thought it was the opposite
  515. # [16:00] <karlushi> I'm using an app, and it seems it was only the Web browser UI which was the victim.
  516. # [16:01] <Philip`> (TikZ seems a crazy idea but somehow it actually works and is really useful)
  517. # [16:01] <Philip`> (and I find it easier than using WYSIWYG editors for diagrams)
  518. # [16:02] <Ms2ger> Philip`++
  519. # [16:02] <Philip`> (so it'd be nice to have something like that for SVG, instead of being stuck with Inkscape)
  520. # [16:06] <hsivonen> karlushi: I'm dogfooding the Web Platform, so I don't use Twitter clients
  521. # [16:07] <hsivonen> jgraham: how can I tell if my account was exploited?
  522. # [16:08] <jgraham> hsivonen: I have no idea
  523. # [16:08] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@dhcp-11-239.it.uu.se)
  524. # [16:08] <jgraham> I am jsut passing on the small amounts of information I picked up
  525. # [16:08] <hsivonen> (well, actually, I'm using Gwibber for notification of incoming @hsivonen mentions, but only because annevk's WG isn't done yet.)
  526. # [16:09] <Rik`_> hsivonen: in fact it was only on oldtwitter
  527. # [16:09] <hsivonen> Rik`_: ok
  528. # [16:10] <Philip`> Ooh, sounds like tex4ht might do TikZ->SVG already
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  532. # [16:15] <annevk> http://www.xml.com/axml/notes/TheCorrectTitle.html XML could've been MAGMA (via mutter)
  533. # [16:15] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@m245636d0.tmodns.net)
  534. # [16:16] * aroben is now known as aroben|breakfast
  535. # [16:19] <zcorpan_> would then xhtml be mhtml?
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  542. # [16:20] <Dashiva> annevk: I'm a bit disappointed they used such a bad voting system to decide
  543. # [16:23] <jgraham> They should have used proportional representation
  544. # [16:23] <jgraham> We would be required to refer to it as MAGMA 4/13 of the time
  545. # [16:24] <annevk> you guys are putting too much thought into this
  546. # [16:26] * Joins: eric_carlson (~ericc@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feb1:5d30)
  547. # [16:26] <Dashiva> They ignored a third of the group in the final decision, that seems big to me
  548. # [16:27] <Ms2ger> XMAGMA?
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  553. # [16:38] <Dashiva> Get out, MikeSmith
  554. # [16:39] <Dashiva> No pretending you're Norwegian on my twitter
  555. # [16:39] <MikeSmith> who's to say I'm not really Norwegian?
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  558. # [16:40] <Dashiva> We all know you're Japanese
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  563. # [16:47] <MikeSmith> speaking of Japanese, I heard that the following is somehow Japan-related: http://theshrinechi.blogspot.com/2010/05/kool-keith-howlin-wolf-q-bert-japan.html
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  569. # [16:59] <Philip`> At the current rate of reviewing canvas test cases, it looks like it'll be finished after a mere 1.2 years
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  571. # [17:00] <jgraham> I am not sure how we will cope when we get thousands of testcases
  572. # [17:01] <jgraham> e.g. AryehGregor's tests
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  575. # [17:05] <zcorpan_> maybe it'll be finished in 2022
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  579. # [17:15] <jgraham> Well say be get 250,000 tests and review 25/week, that is 10,000 weeks or about 200 years
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  582. # [17:19] <jgraham> (which would imply that we can't have more than 12,500 tests with the current system to be done by 2022)
  583. # [17:19] <jgraham> (whcih is clearly far too few)
  584. # [17:19] <jgraham> Now someone can point out why my maths is wrong
  585. # [17:20] <workmad3> jgraham: doesn't take into account multiple people/committees reviewing test for different sections?
  586. # [17:20] <workmad3> I don't know if that's actually happening... but it would make sense
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  588. # [17:22] <payman> jgraham: You just need 200 reviewers and you are done in a year!
  589. # [17:22] <workmad3> payman: ooh, and if we get 9 women, we can have a baby made in a month!
  590. # [17:22] <jgraham> In either case we souls have to change the current system, which isn;t much like those :)
  591. # [17:23] <payman> workmad3: quite possibly! :D
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  594. # [17:24] <jgraham> s/souls/would/
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  596. # [17:25] <payman> workmad3: If only we could quantize a baby!
  597. # [17:25] <workmad3> hmm... maybe if we took one apart to see how it worked...
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  600. # [17:26] * payman is afraid :S
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  602. # [17:27] <workmad3> too far? :)
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  608. # [17:43] <jgraham> Philip`: Do you mind increasing the tolerance on your toDataURL.jpeg tests?
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  628. # [18:11] <gsnedders> yay! there is really hard-to-find documentation on IMAP access to student email!
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  634. # [18:17] <Philip`> jgraham: No
  635. # [18:17] <Philip`> jgraham: Just the one that was mentioned on the list?
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  637. # [18:20] <jgraham> Philip`: I don't know of any others
  638. # [18:21] <Philip`> There are others but they use default/high quality
  639. # [18:21] <Philip`> It sounds like only the one with 0.01 quality was exceeding the tolerance
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  642. # [18:21] <Philip`> since nobody has complained about the others yet
  643. # [18:21] <jgraham> Philip`: Just changing that one for now would be fine
  644. # [18:22] <jgraham> Also, if you could update the test that throws NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR to throw TypeError, that would be great
  645. # [18:23] <Philip`> Is WebIDL correct in requiring that?
  646. # [18:23] <jgraham> No idea
  647. # [18:23] <Philip`> If people are uncertain, maybe it's safer to make it accept any exception
  648. # [18:23] <jgraham> But it's not like we don't have other tests that will have to change if a spec changes
  649. # [18:23] <Philip`> and then the exact exception type is someone else's problem
  650. # [18:23] <Philip`> Yeah, I suppose it's easy enough to change again
  651. # [18:23] <jgraham> I would somewhat prefer to have a specific type
  652. # [18:24] <Philip`> For the cross-origin tests it seems I can simply use http://test2.w3.org/html/tests/approved/images/yellow.png (as long I don't want to use any not-yet-approved images)
  653. # [18:25] <jgraham> MikeSmith: BTW re: bugmail, at this point my main priority is that we *stop* getting bugmail for random keyword additions
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  655. # [18:26] <jgraham> I am OK with getting it for new bugs, but I am not OK with getting content-free mails from random fiddling with a11y keywords (or indeed any keywords)
  656. # [18:27] <jgraham> (that is, I consider any change that leads to not getting those emails to be a relative win)
  657. # [18:28] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: just to let you know I do sometimes do something other than moan that the html5 parser is all wrong, validator.nu says it likes this html5/svg/mathml document
  658. # [18:28] <david_carlisle> http://monet.nag.co.uk/~dpc/d02agf.html#MAT
  659. # [18:30] <jgraham> david_carlisle: sweet
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  664. # [18:45] <Philip`> jgraham: Pushed some changes
  665. # [18:45] <david_carlisle> just need to get it working in ie9...
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  668. # [18:47] <jgraham> IE9 has MathML support? Or you will do some magic to work around that?
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  670. # [18:47] <gsnedders> jgraham: It does into the right namespace, AFAIK
  671. # [18:47] <david_carlisle> mathplayer will render the maths, IE9 has regressed support for extensions but I have a plan.. (I think)
  672. # [18:48] <jgraham> Oh, mathplayer, yeah, I forgot about that
  673. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> jgraham: understood (about the bugmail)
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  709. # [20:18] * gsnedders gets bitten again by the fact that X clipboards don't persist beyond the application's lifetime… ergh.
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  711. # [20:30] <Dashiva> It's a feature, really
  712. # [20:31] <Philip`> Data loss is my favourite feature in any program
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  722. # [20:40] <Dashiva> Philip`: Data loss is such a negative way to phrase it
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  726. # [20:44] <Philip`> Liberating data from the shackles of existence, then?
  727. # [20:46] <Dashiva> Well, if you really cared about the data you would save it immediately, not keep it in the clipboard
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  730. # [21:00] <Hixie> jgraham: i don't know how to get rid of the gotos. Every time I try to do 'while' and 'repeat...until' and 'for' loops, I end up making the text orders of magnitude harder to understand. It's like English doesn't have good structured loops, or at least I haven't worked out good wording for them.
  731. # [21:01] <Hixie> jgraham: if you have any suggestions for replacing gotos with structured loops, file bugs with suggested text, i'm certainly up for it.
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  756. # [22:05] <gsnedders> Hmm, anyone know something with leak detection on armel Linux?
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  758. # [22:06] * gsnedders can't see this leaks on anything apart from ARM
  759. # [22:06] <gsnedders> Gah. :\
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The end :)