/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 23 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> Hmm, I see.
  4. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> I wonder if the meaning of this is specced if you look closely: data:text/html,<!doctype html><form><input required oninvalid="this.setCustomValidity(''); if (!this.validity.valid) this.setCustomValidity('abcd')"><input type=submit></form>?
  5. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> It seems to work as I expect in Opera but not Firefox.
  6. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> If you try submitting, then enter something in the first field, then submitting, it should submit, right?
  7. # [00:03] <AryehGregor> Because it will have no errors left.
  8. # [00:03] <zcorpan_> did you include name=foo when testing opera?
  9. # [00:03] <AryehGregor> Yes.
  10. # [00:04] <AryehGregor> data:text/html,<!doctype html><form><input name=x required oninvalid="this.setCustomValidity(''); if (!this.validity.valid) this.setCustomValidity('abcd')"> <input type=submit></form>
  11. # [00:06] <zcorpan_> i've never learned the forms api properly. what does setCustomValidity do?
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  14. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> It sets a custom validity message. An element with a nonempty custom validity message is invalid, and should display the given message.
  15. # [00:08] <AryehGregor> In some undefined fashion.
  16. # [00:08] <AryehGregor> I think Firefox displays it much better than Opera.
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  20. # [00:11] <zcorpan_> so when it's submitted the first time, the script sets setCustomValidity to 'abcd'. then if you type in the field, is setCustomValidity reset?
  21. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> The custom validity thing is totally custom, only setCustomValidity() ever changes it.
  22. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> So my idea was that when you try submitting, first it clears the custom invalidity, then if it's invalid, it sets the message to override the UA default message.
  23. # [00:13] <AryehGregor> With tweaks so that it actually works in Firefox, it works really well, because Firefox just replaces the whole error message with the provided one.
  24. # [00:13] <AryehGregor> In Opera it's kind of terrible, but then so is everything about Opera's form validation UI.
  25. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> I submitted a bug months ago that pointed out that <input type=password pattern=....*> to require passwords at least 3 characters long will print out the password in cleartext if there's an error.
  26. # [00:14] * Quits: jgornick (~joe@199.199.212.242) (Quit: jgornick)
  27. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> Seemingly still not fixed in 10.60.
  28. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> DSK-262266.
  29. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> I reported it in 10.00.
  30. # [00:16] <AryehGregor> I guess if Firefox 4's UI works well, we can enable it somehow for everyone except WebKit and Opera. But that will be a pain, and require JavaScript. Oh well.
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  32. # [00:18] <miketaylr> so only for FF4?
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  34. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> Well, we could blacklist only specific WebKit versions.
  35. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> Then future WebKit or IE could Just Work.
  36. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> Or Unknown Browser X, whatever.
  37. # [00:22] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: the es5 doc is awesome. one annoyance though is that the text moves when you hover a heading -- maybe use position:absolute or something on the annotation links?
  38. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: yeah, I need to fix that somehow
  39. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> but note that it only happens in Opera
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  41. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> I think I need to adjust the line-height of the headings
  42. # [00:24] <zcorpan_> the text jumps in firefox too
  43. # [00:24] <MikeSmith> the x height of those circled letters is apparently bigger than normal glyphs or something
  44. # [00:24] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  45. # [00:24] <MikeSmith> hmm, doesn't jump in minefield at least
  46. # [00:24] <MikeSmith> but anyway I will fix it one way or the other
  47. # [00:25] <MikeSmith> more serious problem I am having right now is that I can't get text into those anno boxes in Gecko, because readystate on my XHR never changes away from 1
  48. # [00:25] <MikeSmith> can't figure out why
  49. # [00:26] * Joins: jamesr (~jamesr@nat/google/x-biyhgwonxiczyjog)
  50. # [00:27] <jamesr> was 'clear' supported at one point for canvas 2d's globalCompositeOperation?
  51. # [00:27] <jamesr> it appears that gecko and webkit currently accept it as a valid value
  52. # [00:34] <Philip`> jamesr: Not in the spec
  53. # [00:34] <jamesr> Philip`: was there any particular reason not to add it?
  54. # [00:34] <Philip`> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-June/012063.html has the information I'm aware of
  55. # [00:34] <Philip`> jamesr: The default state for features is to not add them, and there wasn't any particular reason to add it
  56. # [00:35] <jamesr> but it's observable
  57. # [00:35] <jamesr> i.e. if bullet point 2 is true, then they should be added
  58. # [00:35] <Philip`> It's an observable spec-compliance bug in browsers that implement it :-)
  59. # [00:36] <Philip`> Is bullet point 2 true?
  60. # [00:36] <jamesr> dunno
  61. # [00:36] <Philip`> As far as I'm aware, Opera hasn't had to add it for compatibility
  62. # [00:36] <Philip`> which suggests it's not used much on the web
  63. # [00:36] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: seems to wfm
  64. # [00:37] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: really? in Firefox or in Minefield?
  65. # [00:37] <MikeSmith> it doesn't stay stuck at "loading..."?
  66. # [00:37] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: minefield... although only when i have the web console open...
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  70. # [00:37] <zcorpan_> which is helpful for debugging it...
  71. # [00:37] <MikeSmith> heh
  72. # [00:38] <MikeSmith> I'm testing in Minefield with console open but not seeing what I expect to see
  73. # [00:38] * MikeSmith tries FF4 beta
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  76. # [00:40] <jgraham> (usually you get "only works with console open" because you left a console.log in. Which you probably know already
  77. # [00:40] <jgraham> )
  78. # [00:41] <zcorpan_> we need to standardize console.log
  79. # [00:42] <miketaylr> a standardized console API would be great
  80. # [00:44] <MikeSmith> I think Web Inspector already supports the Firebug console API
  81. # [00:44] <MikeSmith> Dragonfly does too?
  82. # [00:45] <miketaylr> possibly, but the webkit has added some newer stuff that firebug doesn't support
  83. # [00:46] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/644
  84. # [00:47] <zcorpan_> in particular i think browsers should expose console even when the console isn't open, and we need to agree on which members to have on console
  85. # [00:48] <zcorpan_> otherwise scripts around the web will break in some browsers because the author left in a console.something
  86. # [00:48] <zcorpan_> s/will//
  87. # [00:48] * miketaylr has done that before >_>
  88. # [00:50] <zcorpan_> can someone file a bug on html5? i really need to go to bed now :)
  89. # [00:50] <zcorpan_> nn
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  91. # [00:53] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: does w3c bugzilla use Bcc for Cc'd bugs?
  92. # [00:53] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: no, it uses a normal Cc afaict
  93. # [00:54] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I'm getting new bugmail for all HTML5 bugs but I don't see public-html in the recipient list on the email and I don't think I am on the other lists, so I am unsure of what is happening
  94. # [00:55] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: because you're subscribed to the issue-tracking list, I think
  95. # [00:55] <MikeSmith> I'll turn off those
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  97. # [00:55] <othermaciej> ah, I guess I just forgot about subscribing and have been bitbucketing the emails
  98. # [00:56] <othermaciej> I do want to be getting them, though via public-html so my mail filter catches them
  99. # [00:56] <MikeSmith> you aren't manually subscribed to that list -- its subscriber list is populated out of the user DB
  100. # [00:56] <othermaciej> I see
  101. # [00:57] <othermaciej> so everyone in the WG is on the public-html-issue-tracking list?
  102. # [00:57] <othermaciej> er, public-html-wg-issue-tracking
  103. # [00:58] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: no, just some people.. I can't remember when we set up the group in the DB for that, but you are in it
  104. # [00:58] <MikeSmith> we have maybe 20 people or so in that group
  105. # [00:58] <othermaciej> I see
  106. # [00:58] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: so, I can change right now to having notifications for new bugs go to public-html, as you proposed. Do you want me to do that now?
  107. # [00:58] <othermaciej> looking at the archives it looks like it gets about the same set of mail that I suggested public-html should be getting
  108. # [00:58] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I would appreciate it - I think the other chairs agree that we should at least try it out that way
  109. # [00:58] <MikeSmith> PhilipJ seemed to be OK with new bugs notifications going to public-html
  110. # [00:59] <MikeSmith> OK
  111. # [00:59] <MikeSmith> I will flip the switch on it now
  112. # [00:59] <othermaciej> thanks!
  113. # [00:59] <othermaciej> I guess we can probably obsolete the separate issue tracking list then
  114. # [00:59] <othermaciej> I'm off to a meeting, ttyl
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  116. # [01:01] <jamesr> Philip`: there are a _lot_ of failures in this suite in WebKit and Gecko ToT :(
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  118. # [01:05] <jamesr> Philip`: where is the rounding/wrapping behavior for canvaspixelarray defined? it's tested by 2d.imageData.object.round/wrap
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  128. # [01:25] <Philip`> jamesr: It's defined by WebIDL
  129. # [01:25] <Philip`> Hopefully the tests match that behaviour
  130. # [01:27] <jamesr> ah, since they are defined as octet
  131. # [01:27] <jamesr> looks like only opera currently implements that part of WebIDL
  132. # [01:28] <jamesr> Philip`: 2d.text.draw.baseline.bottom is failing on ffx/opera/gecko - is that expected?
  133. # [01:29] <jamesr> ah, has it been updated?
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  135. # [01:30] <Philip`> Apparently it passed for me in Firefox 3.7 on Linux some time ago
  136. # [01:30] <Philip`> Some browsers do get it wrong
  137. # [01:31] <Philip`> I don't remember updating it
  138. # [01:31] <jamesr> yeah, i was doing something wrong. bottom.html passes in minefield
  139. # [01:31] <jamesr> but ideographic and hanging fail everywhere
  140. # [01:32] <Philip`> As far as I'm aware, the test font is set up correctly for those and they're just not implemented
  141. # [01:33] <jamesr> ok
  142. # [01:34] <Philip`> (I assume nobody really cares about them - they're just in the canvas spec to match some CSS spec, I think)
  143. # [01:35] <jamesr> sucks to have it in the spec if nobody's doing it
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  147. # [01:38] <Philip`> jamesr: I guess that applies to a lot of CSS3
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  150. # [01:42] * karlcow is reading about the evercookie nightmare http://samy.pl/evercookie/
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  152. # [01:43] <Dashiva> It was pretty nightmare from the point flash added SharedObjects
  153. # [01:46] <karlcow> Dashiva: yep definitely. I think there will be new-adds on popping up.
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  175. # [03:29] <variable> Dashiva, karlcow that attack is nothing new
  176. # [03:29] <variable> I recall reading something like that involving storing unique data in a .png file and reading it back from the cache to restore cookies some years ago
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  192. # [04:44] <karlcow> variable: do you have a pointer? that would be cool.
  193. # [04:45] <variable> karlcow, I read it *years* ago
  194. # [04:47] <variable> I wish I had some method of saving bookmarks and searching thru them
  195. # [04:48] <variable> karlcow, what makes the attack so "amazing" now is 1) its all put together in a nice package 2) the public is starting to care ;-)
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  218. # [06:38] <ivan`> what happens if a worker can't be started because of process limits? an Error thrown of some sort? (I don't see in the spec)
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  259. # [09:02] <MikeSmith> Cache-Control: max-age=0 means "no caching", right?
  260. # [09:05] <abarth> think so :)
  261. # [09:05] <abarth> max-age=-10000
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  263. # [09:06] <abarth> dont' cache it! not even in the past!
  264. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> heh
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  284. # [09:43] <annevk> XBL5!
  285. # [09:49] <abarth> :)
  286. # [09:50] <zcorpan> annevk: the coersion rules break a lot more than html[xmlns] in css -- a browser would never use the coersion rules for web content
  287. # [09:51] <zcorpan> annevk: besides the bug was about xmlns:foo if i understood it correctly :)
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  289. # [09:56] <hsivonen> validator.nu is going down for kernel update
  290. # [09:57] <hsivonen> annevk: browsers don't apply the infoset coercion rules anyway
  291. # [09:57] <annevk> he was talking about DOM
  292. # [09:58] * Quits: reni__home (~reni@sedkit.inf.u-szeged.hu) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  293. # [09:58] <hsivonen> I understand that part of what we are doing is fixing stuff that the XHTML2 WG did in the HTML4 era, but it's really annoying that they've created new problems recently that we are now supposed to fix
  294. # [10:01] <hsivonen> validator.nu is back up. html5.validator.nu going down
  295. # [10:02] <annevk> it depends in how far you consider RDFa an actual problem I suppose
  296. # [10:06] <hsivonen> sigh. Jaunty's security updates end next month. I have to upgrade my servers soon.
  297. # [10:08] * Joins: ayo (~nya@fuld-4d00d15f.pool.mediaWays.net)
  298. # [10:10] <zcorpan> didn't rdfa's prefixes="" solve the problem anyway?
  299. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: fwiw, I think I fixed the jumpy-headings problem -
  300. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> http://sideshowbarker.github.com/es5-spec/
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  302. # [10:11] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: nice
  303. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> if you notice other problems or have suggestions, definitely let me know
  304. # [10:12] <hsivonen> zcorpan: maybe ask the question on the bug?
  305. # [10:12] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi)
  306. # [10:13] <hsivonen> and html5.validator.nu is back up
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  308. # [10:17] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Sep/0090.html
  309. # [10:18] <hsivonen> hasn't Hixie proposed Microdata?
  310. # [10:19] <zcorpan> maybe the implication is that microdata doesn't deliver what they need
  311. # [10:19] <hsivonen> might be
  312. # [10:20] <annevk> othermaciej, yeah, I'm hoping the person to write the counter-proposal is not going to be me
  313. # [10:20] <othermaciej> annevk: I'm just shaking the tree in the hope that a volunteer will fall out
  314. # [10:21] <annevk> in fact, I'm pretty sure it won't be as there are lots of other things to take care of
  315. # [10:21] <annevk> heh
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  317. # [10:22] <annevk> so hybi is missing its self-impossed deadline of 4 weeks by a month?
  318. # [10:22] <othermaciej> it doesn't require a high degree of expertise to do it, someone would just need to carefully go over the discussion and make a specific proposal such as using the microformats.org wiki, plus a particular description of how registration goes, etc
  319. # [10:22] <othermaciej> what was the 4 week deadline?
  320. # [10:23] <annevk> there was this idea to define the base protocol in 4 weeks
  321. # [10:23] <annevk> and flush out extensions and other things in the next 6 months
  322. # [10:23] <othermaciej> I remember when Hixie suggested that
  323. # [10:23] <annevk> instead Hixie left and it went dead
  324. # [10:23] <othermaciej> I think the change of editors has rendered all previous plans inoperative and thrown open the gates to more features in the base protocol
  325. # [10:23] <annevk> and now everyone has implemented the framing of -76, including Firefox 4
  326. # [10:24] <annevk> and we'll likely be stuck with that for a long time
  327. # [10:24] <othermaciej> does -76 have the halfway-secure handshake?
  328. # [10:24] <othermaciej> I can't remember
  329. # [10:25] <annevk> -76 has the handshake with the 8 random bytes that were not part of the messaged
  330. # [10:25] <annevk> -d
  331. # [10:25] <othermaciej> ok
  332. # [10:25] <othermaciej> I guess the main thing that sucks about it is that the 8 bytes could break otherwise-working proxies without actually triggering a fast detectable failure
  333. # [10:25] <annevk> better than what Safari shipped (iirc), but still has the "incorrect" framing
  334. # [10:26] <othermaciej> I think we have -76 in WebKit trunk so we'll likely ship it in due course
  335. # [10:27] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  336. # [10:30] <hsivonen> othermaciej: will you be prefixing the API?
  337. # [10:30] <othermaciej> hsivonen: for WebSocket? unlikely...
  338. # [10:31] <hsivonen> othermaciej: ok
  339. # [10:31] <othermaciej> the API seems pretty stable, and we don't usually vendor-prefix things with a draft spec unless there is a lot of reason to expect they will change
  340. # [10:32] <othermaciej> and I am not sure prefixing the API would protect against future protocol changes
  341. # [10:33] <othermaciej> I did at one point suggest prefixing the protocol scheme, so you could use different URLs for different protocol versions, but that suggestion was not met with enthusiasm by WebKit developers
  342. # [10:33] <annevk> I emailed my concern to the hybi list
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  344. # [10:34] <annevk> Opera will be shipping -76 relatively soonish by the way, but we can change the moment one of WebKit/Gecko changes relatively easily
  345. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> how do I completely clear my browser cache in Opera?
  346. # [10:34] <zcorpan> format c:
  347. # [10:35] <annevk> Tools -> Delete Private Data
  348. # [10:35] * ayo is now known as aho
  349. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> annevk: thanks
  350. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> annevk: hmm, in spite of checking Delete entire cache there and hitting the Delete button, when I go to opera:cache it still shows that it has files cached for multiple domains
  351. # [10:43] * MikeSmith tries restarting his Opera
  352. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> ok, restarting Opera seems to clear it
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  355. # [10:50] <annevk> You could file a bug. I have no idea how any of that is supposed to work.
  356. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> ok
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  364. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> ok, I continue to have some behavior in Firefox and Minefield that I can't figure out
  365. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> if somebody can please try this and see if you can reproduce it, I'd appreciate it
  366. # [11:09] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool86.cs.man.ac.uk)
  367. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> 1. go to http://sideshowbarker.github.com/es5-spec/#x7.1
  368. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> 2. hover anywhere over the "7.1 Unicode Format-Control Characters" text
  369. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> 3. click the Ⓔ
  370. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> … pop-up displays a "Table 1 — Format-Control Character Usage" table
  371. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> 4. click the up-arrow at the top right (next to the "x")
  372. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> … a new tab opens, showing an empty page
  373. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> 5. open Firebug on that page and observe that despite not
  374. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> displaying anything, there is content in the DOM…
  375. # [11:11] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  376. # [11:11] <hsivonen> ooh <center>!
  377. # [11:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: how is that document created?
  378. # [11:14] <hsivonen> the one that doesn't show up?
  379. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: abbreviate version is this:
  380. # [11:16] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12)
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  383. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> var win = window.open();
  384. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> ...
  385. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> var annoBody = win.document.importNode(document.getElementById("annotation"),true);
  386. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> win.document.body.appendChild(annoBody);
  387. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> win.document.close();
  388. # [11:16] <jgraham> gsnedders: yt?
  389. # [11:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. that should work.
  390. # [11:18] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I tested that it's not a frame constructor integration bug of the usual kind
  391. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> fwiw, the full source of the script is here - http://github.com/sideshowbarker/es5-spec/blob/gh-pages/anno.js
  392. # [11:18] <hsivonen> that is, setting body to display:none and back to block didn't make content show up
  393. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> OK
  394. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> I wonder if there's some other best-practice way I should be using instead
  395. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> for writing to a new window
  396. # [11:18] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think this one needs a bugzilla entry. Probably in the DOM component.
  397. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
  398. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> will file it now
  399. # [11:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
  400. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> thanks for checking it
  401. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> btw, the <center> is from Open Office output from the MS Word source I generated that doc from
  402. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> I cleaned up a lot, but there's some other junk still in there that I probably should still move to CSS
  403. # [11:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: as a workaround, you could try calling .write("<!DOCTYPE html>"); .close(); on the newly-opened document before importing the nodes
  404. # [11:21] <annevk> can someone explain to me how upload events work for forms?
  405. # [11:21] <annevk> i mean, the page will be replaced by some other page right?
  406. # [11:21] <annevk> or is this mainly for encouraging people to submit to <iframe> instead?
  407. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ah yeah, I will try that
  408. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> (after I file this bug)
  409. # [11:23] <hsivonen> now I have a guess
  410. # [11:23] <hsivonen> there might be a bug that if you don't .write(), layout never gets started
  411. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> oh
  412. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> lemme try now
  413. # [11:24] <hsivonen> the life cycle of the document and parser is sad in Gecko in the .open() case
  414. # [11:25] <hsivonen> a bunch of initialization happens on the first .write() instead of .open()
  415. # [11:25] <hsivonen> mainly because I was trying to conform to a legacy API instead of fixing the API
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  417. # [11:26] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: oops. I misread your code
  418. # [11:27] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: your .open() call is on window instead of win.document
  419. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> aha
  420. # [11:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: my scientific wild-ass guess is that you are importing stuff into a synthetic about:blank document that hasn't had layout started for it
  421. # [11:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: try calling win.document.open(); win.document.write("<!DOCTYPE html>"); win.document.close(); before you import
  422. # [11:29] <hsivonen> and then removing the later win.document.close(); you have now
  423. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> OK
  424. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> will try it now
  425. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> hmm, first thing is, if I call window.document.open() it replaces the current window instead of opening a new window
  426. # [11:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I meant calling it on the win variable you assigned the return value of window.open() into
  427. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> d'oh
  428. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> OK
  429. # [11:32] <hsivonen> if this still doesn't work, I suggest attaching a "load" event handler to win and running the rest of your method from that handler
  430. # [11:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: but clearly, there's a Gecko-side bug to fix here
  431. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> yeah, I will get the bug filed too
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  433. # [11:35] <david_carlisle> Hi, is there a version of opera that does inline svg in html5? I tried http://www.nag.co.uk/blog_files/d02agf.html in 10.62, and it just shows the text of <desc> FF4 and IE9 work fine
  434. # [11:36] <jgraham> david_carlisle: Not yet
  435. # [11:37] <david_carlisle> ah, that's why it didn't work then:-)
  436. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks much
  437. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> just changing the order of the .write seems to fix it
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  441. # [11:45] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: good. must be something to do with starting layout then
  442. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> yeah, seems like
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  445. # [11:55] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10694 o_O
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  448. # [12:02] <zcorpan> annevk: what?
  449. # [12:03] <annevk> forgot to leave my logic behind
  450. # [12:04] <zcorpan> heh
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  454. # [12:20] <jgraham> Does anyone remember why <div><object>a</div> doesn't close the <object>? We have the HTML5 behaviour in current Opera and have a slight site compat. issue from it which Gecko+WebKit have just gained from implementing HTML5
  455. # [12:21] <annevk> presumably because IE/Opera made <object> scoping?
  456. # [12:21] <annevk> I suspect there might be issues either way
  457. # [12:21] <annevk> going from a single broken page with parsing is really tricky
  458. # [12:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=598895 (new bug for the issue you helped me with)
  459. # [12:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks again for the help
  460. # [12:23] <jgraham> annevk: I know
  461. # [12:23] <jgraham> annevk: I was hoping I could say something in the bug other than "well changing parsing is hard and we can't make everything work"
  462. # [12:23] <jgraham> Which is true but kind of weak
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  466. # [12:26] <zcorpan> jgraham: the question is whether there's another way with better site compat (e.g. maybe it should only be scoping for <p> and </p> but not for </div>)
  467. # [12:27] <jgraham> zcorpan: Indeed. But it is hard to tell from insignificant breakage on one site if that is a net win or not
  468. # [12:27] <zcorpan> yeah
  469. # [12:27] <annevk> I'm starting to lean towards abarth "stop tweaking it" pov
  470. # [12:28] <jgraham> I guess it might be closer to legacy gecko/webkit
  471. # [12:28] <abarth> :)
  472. # [12:28] <zcorpan> tweaking is the fun part :)
  473. # [12:28] <jgraham> Well me too, but it sucks to be the person trying to explain that we just have to live with it
  474. # [12:29] <abarth> welcome to the web
  475. # [12:29] <abarth> my name is adam
  476. # [12:29] <abarth> i'll be your host
  477. # [12:29] <zcorpan> GET /tagsoup HTTP/1.1
  478. # [12:30] <zcorpan> Host: adam
  479. # [12:30] * zcorpan awaits response
  480. # [12:31] <annevk> 402 PAYMENT REQUIRED
  481. # [12:31] <abarth> 200 OK
  482. # [12:31] <annevk> aah
  483. # [12:31] <abarth> Content-Length: 27
  484. # [12:31] <abarth> Content-Length: 2394
  485. # [12:32] <zcorpan> crap, now i don't know when to stop reading :(
  486. # [12:32] <abarth> Good news: you're now just supposed to stop immediately and close the socket
  487. # [12:33] * Parts: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-ec9fe355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  488. # [12:34] <abarth> :)
  489. # [12:34] <hsivonen> jgraham: I've filed a spec bug about that
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  491. # [12:34] <hsivonen> jgraham: my guess is that Hixie's reverse engineering of existing browsers hasn't been perfect
  492. # [12:35] <abarth> zcorpan: :)
  493. # [12:35] <hsivonen> jgraham: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10427
  494. # [12:38] <zcorpan> hsivonen: iirc this is a case where i decided that opera should follow ie for compat with some site, so Hixie changed the spec to match
  495. # [12:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan: IE isn't as scoping as HTML5, either, IIRC
  496. # [12:39] <abarth> hsivonen: how come Firefox fails so many of the HTML5lib tests?
  497. # [12:39] <abarth> is that spec skew?
  498. # [12:40] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think ie6 and ie7 (and maybe ie8) parsing of object depends on whether the plugin was used or not
  499. # [12:40] <hsivonen> abarth: the summary/figcaption stuff I haven't fixed, because there's the outstanding spec bug on <figure>
  500. # [12:40] <hsivonen> abarth: though I was planning on writing patches today anyway
  501. # [12:40] <abarth> ic
  502. # [12:40] <hsivonen> abarth: other than that, I have fixes in my queue
  503. # [12:40] <hsivonen> abarth: and they have review
  504. # [12:40] <abarth> i should sync the tests again
  505. # [12:41] <abarth> when should we change the "-- >" thing in html5lib
  506. # [12:41] <hsivonen> abarth: but only beta7 blockers are allowed to land
  507. # [12:41] <hsivonen> abarth: already changed
  508. # [12:41] <abarth> oh, good
  509. # [12:41] <abarth> beta7 gets cut from trunk?
  510. # [12:41] <zcorpan> hsivonen: in fact, <object> is sort of a cdata element in ie, iirc
  511. # [12:42] <hsivonen> abarth: I think we might branch first and bake beta7 on the branch for a few days, but for practical purposes, yes
  512. # [12:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan: oh
  513. # [12:42] <abarth> there have been some pretty major things landing between betas
  514. # [12:43] <abarth> like a new JavaScript engine
  515. # [12:43] <abarth> :)
  516. # [12:43] <zcorpan> i read ie9 changed parsing of <object>, i wonder if they now match html5 there
  517. # [12:44] <hsivonen> abarth: AFAICT, Firefox "beta" is what gets offered to a larger audience
  518. # [12:44] <hsivonen> abarth: can't really infer feature-completeness from "beta"
  519. # [12:44] <abarth> how does that differ from the nightly builds?
  520. # [12:44] <abarth> i guess they're more stable
  521. # [12:45] <hsivonen> abarth: stability and publicity
  522. # [12:46] <abarth> strange
  523. # [12:46] <abarth> why did html5lib remove test cases?
  524. # [12:46] <hsivonen> abarth: I moved some tests to new files
  525. # [12:47] <hsivonen> abarth: either because the tests were text editor-unsafe
  526. # [12:47] <hsivonen> abarth: or because the test changed ahead of spec
  527. # [12:47] <hsivonen> abarth: IIRC, I didn't remove any tests
  528. # [12:47] <abarth> i see the new files
  529. # [12:47] <abarth> l don't really have a good way of merging the files
  530. # [12:47] <abarth> i do it by hand
  531. # [12:49] <hsivonen> abarth: fwiw, I landed my queue of fixes to the htmlparser repo today and deployed them on validator.nu (but not livedom.validator.nu yet)
  532. # [12:49] <hsivonen> (I need to work around GWT UA sniffing bogosity to redeploy livedom)
  533. # [12:50] <hsivonen> I really wish GWT feature sniffed and loaded a bit more code
  534. # [12:51] <hsivonen> I can sympathise with wanting to load different code for IE6, but loading different code for WebKit, Gecko < 1.8, Gecko >=1.8 and Opera is BAD
  535. # [12:51] <hsivonen> and what's the deal with supporting Gecko < 1.8 anyway?
  536. # [12:52] <hsivonen> we should start calling window.console "HTML5 console" once it's in the spec :-)
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  542. # [13:09] <abarth> tests pushed
  543. # [13:09] <abarth> not that much exciting
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  548. # [13:28] <hsivonen> abarth|zZz: umm. It seems to me you pushed back bits that I had specifically moved to different files
  549. # [13:29] <hsivonen> abarth|zZz: specifically, in comments01.dat and entities01.dat
  550. # [13:31] <abarth|zZz> ah, sorry about that
  551. # [13:31] <abarth|zZz> feel free to fix it
  552. # [13:31] <abarth|zZz> we need a better process to merge changes
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  554. # [13:32] <hsivonen> abarth|zZz: ok. I'll fix it at some point unless someone else beats me to it.
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  593. # [15:17] <GPHemsley> (signal-noise ratio too high for me, personally)
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  595. # [15:17] <GPHemsley> (or is it low? anyway, too much I didn't care to read...)
  596. # [15:18] <jgraham> I guess you mean low
  597. # [15:18] <jgraham> Unless you are complaining that there is too mcuh technical discussion that is hard to have an opinion on
  598. # [15:19] <jgraham> and not enough useless bikeshedding that is fun for all the family
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  600. # [15:21] <hsivonen> GPHemsley: what's been noise lately?
  601. # [15:21] * hsivonen tuned the poster='' thread out
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  606. # [15:38] <Hixie> sorry, been on vacation so haven't been able to tone noise down
  607. # [15:38] <Hixie> do i need to do anything on the poster thread?
  608. # [15:39] <Hixie> (i'm mostly back now btw, just going through massive mail backlog)
  609. # [15:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't know. before I tuned out, the content of the thread was appropriate for the list. There were just an unusual number of messages.
  610. # [15:42] <Hixie> ah ok
  611. # [15:42] <Hixie> i'll take a look when i get to figuring out which folder it should go to shortly then
  612. # [15:42] <Hixie> and will see if anything needs doing
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  614. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> jgraham: for the content of the actual annotations in the annotated ES5 doc, I'm wondering if the audience should be implementors and authors, or just implementors
  615. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> jgraham: example I thought of today was the fact that, e.g., parseInt("08") returns 0 and parseInt("010") returns 8
  616. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> etc.
  617. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> (because the leading zero causes parseInt to assume octal)
  618. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> and the spec doesn't state that explicitly
  619. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> so, I added an annotation for authors
  620. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> just saying, always supply the radix param
  621. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> but… I don't know if the annotations should end up being addressed both to implementors and authors, or if it should be just one or the other
  622. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> I guess the intended-for-author annotations could be marked up to indicate they are for authors -- class=author or whatever
  623. # [15:53] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yeah, t would be helpful to annotate the spec with what is actually required for implementors too
  624. # [15:53] <jgraham> Work around the refusal of ECMAScript committee to fix bugs in the parts that they hope will go away in the future
  625. # [15:53] <jgraham> (bugs in the spec relative to reality I mean)
  626. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> ok
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  702. # [19:12] <jgraham> Oh, hybi how I missed you
  703. # [19:13] <Hixie> what's up there?
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  712. # [19:23] <mokush> hey, can anybody expand on the "label" for <track>?
  713. # [19:23] <mokush> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#attr-track-charset
  714. # [19:24] <Hixie> expand how?
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  716. # [19:24] <mokush> the definition in the spec is very very fague
  717. # [19:24] <mokush> at least to me
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  719. # [19:26] <mokush> is it a sort-of invisible title attr?
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  724. # [19:31] <Hixie> mokush: oh you mean "what does it do?"?
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  734. # [19:46] <Hixie> mokush: it basically decides what the browser's name for the track will be
  735. # [19:46] <Hixie> mokush: in its menus and stuff
  736. # [19:46] <Hixie> (sorry for the delay, i'm in and out here)
  737. # [19:48] <jgraham> Hixie: """I think the reluctance to fix it has mostly been due to partisan
  738. # [19:48] <jgraham> politics - either defending the origins and/or a reluctance to causeoffence by it's replacement with another solution."""
  739. # [19:48] <Hixie> o_O
  740. # [19:48] <jgraham> "it" being the handshake in this case
  741. # [19:48] <Hixie> so glad i got out of that wg
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  743. # [19:49] <mokush> Hixie: no prob, I was out too. So it's actualy a short name like "English"?
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  745. # [19:55] <Hixie> mokush: yeah
  746. # [19:55] <mokush> does track have even minimal support in any browser?
  747. # [19:55] <Hixie> not yet
  748. # [19:56] <Hixie> it's only just been added
  749. # [19:56] <Hixie> afk, bbl
  750. # [19:56] <mokush> js to the rescue
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  753. # [19:58] <mokush> I read somewhere that Safari has some support for captions.
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  781. # [21:10] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: public-html seems to be getting bugmail other than new bugs...
  782. # [21:11] <othermaciej> I see a few today that are keyword changes or resolutions (though it seems just plain comments are not getting through)
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  786. # [21:25] <jgraham> othermaciej: In case you are not paying attention, Hybi seems to be discussing the handshake again
  787. # [21:26] <othermaciej> jgraham: is it worth my time to pay attention?
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  790. # [21:31] <jgraham> othermaciej: I think it is would be a net win if you pay attention. I'm not sure if you personally will benefit from it
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  845. # Session Close: Fri Sep 24 00:00:00 2010

The end :)