/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-25 / end

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  47. # [03:02] <variable> Hixie, try "ifconfig flushall" from Terminal as root - it /may/ help
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  52. # [03:20] <Hixie> variable: thanks, will try if it happens again. I ended up solving it by installing any pending updates and rebooting twice.
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  57. # [03:20] <variable> Hixie, all that command does is forces the mac to release any current DHCP leases - I duno if it would help
  58. # [03:20] <Hixie> well i tried "renew dhcp lease" in the pref panel and that had no effect
  59. # [03:21] <Hixie> i could see in the tcpdump log that it was asking for a DHCP lease
  60. # [03:21] <Hixie> and it was getting a reply
  61. # [03:21] <Hixie> it was just not doing anything with it
  62. # [03:21] <variable> yeah - that is why I said to flush it first
  63. # [03:21] <Hixie> k
  64. # [03:21] <variable> another solution might be to statically set it to the reply that it got
  65. # [03:22] <Hixie> well that's how i got on IRC earlier and how I got online to download the updates
  66. # [03:22] <Hixie> but that's not a great solution ;-)
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  79. # [04:09] * Hixie gets to the volume/muted content attribute thing
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  82. # [04:18] <Hixie> i don't see any way to have a muted="" content attribute that is reflected by the IDL attribute, since it would mean that if the user had requested a blanket mute of all audio, and you had a page today (with no muted="" attribute), it would magically sprout a muted="" attribute in the DOM each time the document was parsed
  83. # [04:18] <Hixie> that seems suboptimal
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  90. # [05:18] <Hixie> i've no idea how to do this
  91. # [05:20] <variable> Hixie, do what?
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  98. # [05:26] <Hixie> variable: the muted thing i mentioned above
  99. # [05:26] <variable> oh - woops
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  158. # [11:57] <annevk> http://twitter.com/sideshowbarker/status/25201432241 o_O
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  161. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> annevk: the word "faktisk" is a model of precision and economy compared to "daadwerkelijk"
  162. # [12:09] <annevk> it sounds more like the Dutch "feitelijk"
  163. # [12:09] <annevk> than "daadwerkelijk"
  164. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> oh
  165. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> so it is
  166. # [12:10] <annevk> I was mostly surprised you tweet in Dutch now :)
  167. # [12:11] <annevk> or something very close to it anyway ;p
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  169. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> heh
  170. # [12:12] * MikeSmith finds daadwerkelijk
  171. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> oops
  172. # [12:12] * MikeSmith finds http://www.mijnwoordenboek.nl/synoniemen/daadwerkelijk
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  174. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> I've quit tweeting in English forever
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  176. # [12:27] <hsivonen> http://domscripting.com/blog/display/99
  177. # [12:28] <hsivonen> looks like adactio has been promoting a trick that doesn't work with HTML5-compliant innerHTML
  178. # [12:29] <hsivonen> correction: it's not adactio but one of the commenters who suggests using the trick for executing innerHTML-inserted scripts
  179. # [12:30] <annevk> it's from 2007
  180. # [12:31] <hsivonen> annevk: which means that potentially a lot of people have read it
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  184. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> speaking of bad advice, the following seems questionable:
  185. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/efficient-javascript/?page=2#implicitconversion
  186. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw, does Tarquin still work at Opera?
  187. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> that article is otherwise great, btw
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  190. # [13:08] <annevk> MikeSmith, yup
  191. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> cool
  192. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> dude should write more
  193. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> write more articles I mean
  194. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> at dev.opera.com or his own site
  195. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> he seems to have gone quiet some time back
  196. # [13:12] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Clearly we work him too hard
  197. # [13:13] <jgraham> And yeah, that advice sucks
  198. # [13:13] <jgraham> But it is from 2006
  199. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> true
  200. # [13:14] <jgraham> That is like 1000BC (Before Carakan) in javascript years
  201. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> yeah
  202. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> but to some degree, it seems to have been intended as general advice (though I to realize he makes a point there of saying it applies more directly to the then-shipping Opera JS engine)
  203. # [13:15] <jgraham> We should write a new article that actually applies to the mordern world
  204. # [13:15] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yeah, but 2006 is before fast javascript in general
  205. # [13:15] <jgraham> isn't it?
  206. # [13:16] <jgraham> Unless I am off by a couple of years at least
  207. # [13:16] <jgraham> Some stuff still applies of course
  208. # [13:17] <jgraham> "don't use try/catch in inner loops" for example
  209. # [13:17] <jgraham> And he doesn't appear to say "don't use the with statement, ever", but if he did that would still apply
  210. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> jgraham: no, you right (about the dates)
  211. # [13:18] <jgraham> (he says the rather too weak "avoid using with")
  212. # [13:18] <Philip`> Ideally all articles about JS performance would come with benchmarks so you could see how relevant they are in your current browser
  213. # [13:18] <Philip`> The benchmarks would probably be rubbish but at least they'd be better than nothing
  214. # [13:19] <jgraham> (which is just wrong. You should assume that using "with" is forbidden by law and carrys a prison term)
  215. # [13:20] <annevk> i like with
  216. # [13:20] <annevk> sue me
  217. # [13:20] <annevk> i'll make a point about using it more
  218. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> every article about JS performance should probably have an accompanying script with a timer that triggers after 1 year ot 2 years at most and causes the contents of the pages to be replaced with the single sentence: "The chances of this article still being relevant are very low. Find a more up-to-date article instead."
  219. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> make that, replaced with the _two_ single sentences
  220. # [13:22] <Philip`> Also they should all start with a section about how to profile your code to find bottlenecks, before wasting time micro-optimising irrelevant parts
  221. # [13:22] <Philip`> (Do good profiling tools for JS actually exist?)
  222. # [13:23] <gsnedders> Philip`: JSC has one that disables JIT, at lesat
  223. # [13:23] <Philip`> That sounds the opposite of "good"
  224. # [13:23] <gsnedders> Well, it's the best I know of :PP
  225. # [13:24] <Philip`> It's kind of useless getting profiling data over a version of your code that is not the version whose performance you actually care about
  226. # [13:25] <gsnedders> Well, yeah.
  227. # [13:25] * Philip` wonders if authors would get better performance improvements if browser developers focused on decent profiling support to help authors optimise their code, rather than focusing on making the JS engine faster
  228. # [13:25] <gsnedders> That just kinda says how diabolical profiling is
  229. # [13:26] <gsnedders> Philip`: Harder to market, though
  230. # [13:26] <Philip`> Development tools like Firebug seem good marketing points (which forced other browser developers to implement something similar)
  231. # [13:27] * Joins: Athox (~duckmysic@c4470BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no)
  232. # [13:27] <Philip`> at least for authors
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  235. # [13:28] <Philip`> and for users you claim that more real web sites will be optimised for your browser since you're making it easy for authors to do that
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  247. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> somebody please help me out here… where in the Ecmascript spec does it actually specify that you can get the character at a particular index in a string value by using square-bracket syntax?
  248. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> …or even where it states that you can use that to get retrieve a particular element from an array?
  249. # [14:21] <miketaylr> MikeSmith: section 15.5.5.2 of http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-262.htm
  250. # [14:21] <miketaylr> (for string)
  251. # [14:21] <miketaylr> i think that was non-standard until es5
  252. # [14:22] * MikeSmith reads http://localhost:8080/index.html#x15.5.2
  253. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> oops
  254. # [14:22] <paul_irish> Ooh! /me bookmarks.
  255. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> :)
  256. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> http://sideshowbarker.github.com/es5-spec/#x15.5.2
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  258. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> oops
  259. # [14:24] <miketaylr> ooOOooo html
  260. # [14:24] * Parts: sean` (~Sean@84-106-110-173.cable.quicknet.nl)
  261. # [14:25] * MikeSmith copies the section number correctly this time
  262. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> http://sideshowbarker.github.com/es5-spec/#x15.5.5.2
  263. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> ah, sweet
  264. # [14:25] <miketaylr> :)
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  266. # [14:27] <MikeSmith> hey, I initially misread step 8 of that algorithm as "If resultStr be a String of length 1,"
  267. # [14:27] <MikeSmith> it would be great if specs were actually written with that kind of language
  268. # [14:27] <MikeSmith> "If foo be bar, then
  269. # [14:29] <Dashiva> Only one day a year
  270. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> heh
  271. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> I guess that day passed recently
  272. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> too bad
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  299. # [15:34] <jgraham> annevk: I have no idea why you would like making your code look more like it was written in Visual Basic
  300. # [15:34] <jgraham> If God had intended the web to be programmed in VB, He would have given Microsoft a monopoly
  301. # [15:43] <Philip`> If JS used VB's with syntax (where you write ".Height = 100" etc so it's easily distinguishable from local/global variable references), would that have avoided the performance problems it causes?
  302. # [15:49] <jgraham> Maybe
  303. # [15:50] * jgraham hasn't actually programmed any VB for >10 years and had forgotten the . thing
  304. # [15:50] <MikeSmith> anybody know if there is interactive help or a man page or doc of some kind for the OSX "jsc" command?
  305. # [15:52] <jgraham> MikeSmith: No idea. I doubt it. Do you have a question?
  306. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> nah, nothing specific
  307. # [15:52] * jgraham is unlikely to be able to help, but nevertheless
  308. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> just running the jsc shell
  309. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> and wondering if there is any help on the shell at least
  310. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> node shell has a .help
  311. # [15:54] <MikeSmith> but that is actually not very useful at all
  312. # [15:54] <MikeSmith> at this point
  313. # [15:54] <jgraham> Does it do more than just take javascript expressions and evaluate the results?
  314. # [15:54] <jgraham> There is a print() function to write to stdout if that helps
  315. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> node shell has a .break and .clear
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  317. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> which are actually useful in the case of node
  318. # [15:55] <jgraham> It's not like command-line repls have been the main focus of javascript
  319. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> true
  320. # [15:56] <jgraham> Or non-browser use cases in general really
  321. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> a thing that the node shell does that I find highly annoying is that if you hit ^C it drops you out of the shell entirely and exists back to your bash prompt
  322. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> I don't think ^C in a shell or shell-like thing should do that
  323. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> that's what ^D is for
  324. # [15:57] <Philip`> Perhaps you could run it in rlwrap to get a more standard shell-like interface
  325. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> so I guess this .break thing is what you are meant to use instead
  326. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> what's rlwrap?
  327. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> …readline wrapper
  328. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> I see
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  354. # [18:18] <karlcow> in http://mozillalabs.com/zaphod/2010/09/16/6/ spotted a http-equiv=”Content-Script-Type”
  355. # [18:18] <karlcow> <meta http-equiv=”Content-Script-Type” content=”application/narcissus” />
  356. # [18:19] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.2.1
  357. # [18:19] <annevk> ugh
  358. # [18:19] <annevk> "Doing so will cause Narcissus to execute the various on* listeners specified for different elements. (Unfortunately, SpiderMonkey will also execute them, which may or may not cause issues)."
  359. # [18:20] <karlcow> yes it seems SpiderMonkey it doesn't remove the other. Kind of strange
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  361. # [18:32] <hsivonen> application/narcissus is like application/chromeframe, expect the former is only for experimentation while the latter is marketed for non-experimental deployment
  362. # [18:36] <annevk> could have used a more "there be dragons" identifier
  363. # [18:36] <annevk> but I guess it doesn't really matter
  364. # [18:37] <karlcow> hmm application/crouching-tiger
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  381. # [20:33] <jacobolus> is there any way to add focus/blur events to custom objects?
  382. # [20:33] <jacobolus> for instance, to get a blur event on a div for someone clicking on some other form element?
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  385. # [20:36] <Hixie> jacobolus: i don't follow
  386. # [20:36] <Hixie> can someone with IE let me know what IE does for http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/647 ?
  387. # [20:36] <gsnedders> jacobolus: var div = document.getElementsByTagName("div")[0], form = document.getElementsByTagName("form")[0]; form.addEventListener("blur", function(e){div.dispatchEvent(e);}, false);
  388. # [20:37] <gsnedders> jacobolus: Or something like that?
  389. # [20:37] <Hixie> so far i have three browsers with three different results
  390. # [20:37] <jacobolus> Hixie: in other words, currently only form elements or something containing them gets key presses and focus/blur events right?
  391. # [20:37] <gsnedders> jacobolus: Oh, that'll throw
  392. # [20:38] <jacobolus> can I get a div to accept focus & key events?
  393. # [20:38] <Hixie> jacobolus: per the spec, all kinds of elements can be focusable, see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/editing.html#focus-management
  394. # [20:38] <jacobolus> oh, okay
  395. # [20:38] <Hixie> jacobolus: plus you can be "specially focusable" http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/editing.html#specially-focusable
  396. # [20:39] <Hixie> it strikes me that contenteditable isn't on either of those lists
  397. # [20:39] <Hixie> but that would also make something focusable
  398. # [20:39] <Hixie> probably
  399. # [20:39] <jacobolus> Hixie: so if I have some random div in the middle of my page, can I make it focusable?
  400. # [20:39] <Hixie> sure, just set tabindex=0 on it
  401. # [20:39] <jacobolus> (or perhaps an SVG shape that I want to be selectable)
  402. # [20:40] <jacobolus> neat
  403. # [20:40] <jacobolus> let me try that
  404. # [20:40] <Hixie> SVG probably has an attribute like fcFocusableElementActivationBehaviorMatrix="focusable-element"
  405. # [20:40] <jacobolus> :)
  406. # [20:40] <Hixie> but i wouldn't know what it was off-hand
  407. # [20:41] <jacobolus> I can't just set tabindex on it?
  408. # [20:41] <jacobolus> that's too bad
  409. # [20:41] <Hixie> dunno if SVG has tabindex
  410. # [20:41] <Hixie> maybe
  411. # [20:41] <jacobolus> aha! "focusable"
  412. # [20:41] <jacobolus> at least in svg tiny 1.2
  413. # [20:41] <Hixie> wow that's remarkably succint
  414. # [20:42] <jacobolus> and the associated event is apparently "DOMFocusIn"
  415. # [20:44] <jacobolus> I wonder if any browsers support that
  416. # [20:52] <jacobolus> sorry for the obvious questions, but what exactly is the relation of svg tiny 1.2 to svg 1.2, and what specs are browsers trying to implement?
  417. # [20:57] <jacobolus> or are browsers just shooting for svg 1.1?
  418. # [20:57] <jacobolus> (which doesn't include this keyboard stuff as far as I can tell)
  419. # [20:57] * micheil_away is now known as micheil
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  421. # [21:06] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm completely confused by http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9843
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  425. # [21:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: the patch that landed in Gecko makes document.written scripts not block on style sheets. seems to match IE
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  427. # [21:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't think we should be adding things that make document.write('foo') work differently than data:text/html,foo
  428. # [21:18] <Hixie> at least not without clear compat need
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  443. # [22:28] * Quits: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: nimbupani)
  444. # [22:34] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  445. # [22:44] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@65.168.34.95.customer.cdi.no) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  446. # [23:09] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-60-18.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  447. # [23:20] * Athox is now known as Anti-X
  448. # [23:25] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  449. # [23:25] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@m83-185-20-145.cust.tele2.se) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  450. # [23:29] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@109.96.211.30) (Quit: .)
  451. # [23:34] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  452. # [23:53] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@frontend.gtri.gatech.edu)
  453. # [23:53] * Quits: oal (~oal@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  454. # [23:56] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YGCDIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 4.0b7pre/20100918160041])
  455. # Session Close: Sun Sep 26 00:00:00 2010

The end :)