/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 30 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:01] <jgraham> Talk to plh or MikeSmith?
  5. # [00:01] <Philip`> Huh
  6. # [00:01] <Philip`> abort: HTTP Error 500: Internal Server Error
  7. # [00:01] <Philip`> It's not just you
  8. # [00:01] <AryehGregor> Yay.
  9. # [00:01] * AryehGregor commiserates
  10. # [00:01] <Philip`> (and I haven't changed my configuration since it last worked successfully)
  11. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> That's what they always say.
  12. # [00:03] <jgraham> Hmm
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  14. # [00:03] <jgraham> I wonder if they changed the auth
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  19. # [00:07] <jgraham> Yeah, I can't push either
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  21. # [00:10] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/09/29/ie9-s-faster-more-capable-compatibility-view-list.aspx
  22. # [00:10] <Philip`> <domain docMode="EmulateIE9" featureSwitch="createElementWithMarkup">verizonwireless.com</domain>
  23. # [00:10] <Philip`> Excellent - now there's not merely a dozen different engine modes, you can toggle individual features within each mode
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  25. # [00:11] <AryehGregor> If that's what it takes to get IE to be standards-compliant by default, I'm sold.
  26. # [00:11] <AryehGregor> I don't think they had any other option than all this compatibility given how radically different IE was to every other browser.
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  28. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> "We want the CV List to be as small as possible when IE9 ships and to get smaller over time because more and more of the web works well in IE9 by default." See, they don't want this to be permanent.
  29. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> It's a transition move.
  30. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> IE10 might not need it at all.
  31. # [00:13] <Philip`> "We won’t create feature switches for every change in behavior and sites cannot opt-in to them."
  32. # [00:13] <Philip`> Lack of opt-in is good
  33. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> So it's basically just what every browser does, except they use XML.
  34. # [00:14] <Philip`> so it seems more like Opera's browser.js
  35. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> And have more sites on the list.
  36. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> WebKit also has code like that, I know.
  37. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> Probably Gecko too.
  38. # [00:14] <Philip`> Yeah
  39. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> (One of WebKit's hacks is for old MediaWiki, yay.)
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  45. # [00:27] <Hixie> even the spec has per-site stuff like that
  46. # [00:32] <Hixie> annevk: you don't like x-vendor-feature?
  47. # [00:32] <Hixie> annevk: it's the only one apple seems happy to use :-(
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  54. # [00:48] <Hixie> i wonder if we should change the parser so that each node on the stack has an associated state, and when you pop the stack, you automatically switch back to the state that you were in when the node was pushed on
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  56. # [00:50] <Hixie> the problem is HTML in foreign lands, where you really want to not be in foreign lands, but you need to be able to switch back when the first HTML-in-foreign element is popped
  57. # [00:50] <Hixie> same as the in-table-cell mode actually
  58. # [00:50] <Hixie> in-table-cell and in-foreign-content are basically the same problem
  59. # [00:51] <Hixie> in caption is like that too
  60. # [00:52] <Hixie> bbiab
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  113. # [02:39] <cardona507> anyone know any other mobile sites that are live like gmail for iPhone that are html5?
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  150. # [04:39] <Hixie> if anyone has IE8 or IE9 it would be great if they could e-mail me the result of running http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/all.html
  151. # [04:39] <Hixie> man i wish we had microsoft people here
  152. # [04:40] <abarth> i wish IE9 had just implemented the HTML5 parsing algorithm
  153. # [04:40] <abarth> maybe next time
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  180. # [06:14] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10743 Anyone got a good idea for another example of where we have conformance criteria to avoid brittle constructs in HTML?
  181. # [06:15] <Hixie> (since we've made the one that we had as an example less brittle such that it no longer applies...)
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  188. # [06:35] <myakura> agrrr “Rename the input element's @speech attribute to @webkitspeech since it is still experimental.” http://webkit.org/b/46799
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  190. # [06:39] <jacobolus> question about the svg spec, if anyone around here knows.
  191. # [06:39] <jacobolus> In the part for the V command inside a path, it says "Multiple y values can be provided (although usually this doesn't make sense). At the end of the command, the new current point becomes (cpx, y) for the final value of y."
  192. # [06:39] <jacobolus> Is there any reason at all for the multiple values of y thing with the last one superseding the rest? It seems to me that "this" *never* makes sense.
  193. # [06:41] <jacobolus> or does that imply that it'll draw a separate segment for each value of y provided?
  194. # [06:41] <jacobolus> then I could understand it maybe, if there were e.g. markers at the vertices
  195. # [06:42] <Hixie> myakura: file a bug to make it x-webkit-speech :-)
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  199. # [06:46] <jacobolus> Hixie: people were joking about acid 4 earlier. will there be such a thing and is it possible to send ideas/pleas/etc?
  200. # [06:49] <othermaciej> myakura: did you file it? if not I can
  201. # [06:50] <othermaciej> I wonder if we have any other cruft we can rename
  202. # [06:53] <abarth> we should rename all experimental things every release, just to stop people from relying on it
  203. # [06:55] <othermaciej> heh
  204. # [06:55] <abarth> (that might be a bit meanspirited)
  205. # [06:55] <othermaciej> I think it would not be a win for users
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  207. # [06:56] <othermaciej> I am always leery of adding too much experimental stuff because it's so easy for it to accidentally become not-so-experimental
  208. # [06:57] <abarth> btw, thanks for explaining the security issues to the hybi folks
  209. # [06:57] <abarth> you're doing a much better job than I would :)
  210. # [06:57] <abarth> the XOR with a PRNG isn't a terrible idea
  211. # [06:57] <abarth> implementing RC4 isn't that hard
  212. # [06:58] <othermaciej> things increasingly turn into poor man's TLS
  213. # [06:58] <abarth> sure
  214. # [06:58] <othermaciej> thanks for your kind words, but I am not sure I am doing such a great job of explaining
  215. # [06:58] <abarth> it improves on TLS in the sense that you don't have to waste packet bits with a MAC
  216. # [06:58] <othermaciej> I feel like I have gotten some points across, but people still get confused between the two possible directions of attack, what parties can be trusted in what situation, etc
  217. # [06:59] <abarth> the model of trusting the browser but not the code running inside the browser is tricky for folks who don't do this all the time
  218. # [06:59] <abarth> i spend a lot of time working that idea into the minds of students
  219. # [06:59] <abarth> the "don't trust the client" message is easier to understand
  220. # [07:00] <othermaciej> I find it hard to get the intuition across, since I have spent so much time now as an insider
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  222. # [07:00] <abarth> part of it is just a knowledge base of "what can JavaScript inside the browser actually do"
  223. # [07:01] <abarth> vis-a-vis generating network requests (in this case)
  224. # [07:01] <othermaciej> the seductive idea of browsers passing the buck to web sites also seems to arise with regards to backwards compatibility (vs following the letter of the spec) a lot
  225. # [07:01] <abarth> e.g., setting some headers but not other
  226. # [07:02] <abarth> that's part of a more general cultural difference
  227. # [07:02] <abarth> there's a lot of places where the IETF community is happy to pass the buck
  228. # [07:02] <abarth> i don't quite understand why that is
  229. # [07:03] <abarth> i think they have more of an attachment to the aesthetic beauty of what could be
  230. # [07:03] <abarth> rather than feeling chained to what is
  231. # [07:03] <othermaciej> the lowest level protocols require a fairly rigorous treatment and maybe that spawned a culture of "doing it right"
  232. # [07:04] <othermaciej> whereas http is not nearly so foundational and is only really complicated because of accretion, not for essential reasons
  233. # [07:04] <othermaciej> also in the earliest days it was probably completely reasonable to suggest that a large proportion of all the hosts on the internet should change their software
  234. # [07:05] <abarth> i've noticed a pattern that folks tend to think that things that existed before they were paying attention are fixed whereas everything that came after can be changed
  235. # [07:05] <abarth> maybe they've just been in the game longer than us
  236. # [07:05] <abarth> so they view more as changable
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  239. # [07:12] <Hixie> jacobolus: no immediate plan
  240. # [07:13] <jacobolus> okay
  241. # [07:13] <jacobolus> I guess everyone should be keeping their lists of pet bugs anyway
  242. # [07:14] <jacobolus> othermaciej: I'm amazed at your dedication to discussion in hybi. I can't even skim the subject lines without getting dizzy
  243. # [07:15] <othermaciej> jacobolus: I only did it cause jgraham asked
  244. # [07:16] <othermaciej> abarth: I'm not sure I would characterize the pattern that way
  245. # [07:16] <othermaciej> some people think specs are fixed and implementations are malleable
  246. # [07:16] <jacobolus> abarth: I don't think IETF community has any specific attachments to things. I think they just like arguing without experience or much careful thought for the sake of arguing
  247. # [07:17] <jacobolus> the proposals are certainly not "aesthetically beautiful" by any standard of beauty I would recognize
  248. # [07:18] <othermaciej> oh, there's certainly people whose enthusiasm is greater than their cluefulness
  249. # [07:18] <abarth> othermaciej: as a WebKit example, Darin and Eric think we should/could rename LayoutTests to RegressionTests whereas that never occurred to me. I attribute that to them being around when the name "LayoutTests" was picked, but I could well be overgeneralizing
  250. # [07:18] <othermaciej> but they are to some extent emulating the cultural patterns set by their tribal elders
  251. # [07:19] <othermaciej> I was around before almost anything in WebKit was picked, so I guess it's hard for me to evaluate this for myself
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  253. # [07:20] <othermaciej> I mean, I guess I wouldn't advocate "start over and base on Gecko instead of KHTML", but I'd like to think that's because it would be an insane plan, not because KHTML was picked before I joined
  254. # [07:21] <othermaciej> I like to think of myself as more attached to broad principles than to specifics
  255. # [07:22] <othermaciej> so "be willing to rename if the new name is better (for names not exposed as API at least)" seems more important than any specific name
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  257. # [07:25] <abarth> i think that's been healthy for the project
  258. # [07:25] <abarth> having a clearly defined API also helps
  259. # [07:25] <abarth> so its clear what's allowed to be changed wildly and what has to stay the same
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  266. # [07:42] <gsnedders> 9:15am firealarms are evil.
  267. # [07:42] <gsnedders> s/9/6/
  268. # [07:42] <gsnedders> (and a fire-drill at that)
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  277. # [08:18] <abarth> Hixie: thoughts on http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=54563 ?
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  292. # [08:55] <jgraham> Hixie: I have often wondered why the stack of open elements isn't composed of (insertion mode, element) tuples
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  294. # [08:56] <jgraham> So if that design works I see no reason to avoid it. It's a pretty scary change at this stage though
  295. # [08:57] <Hixie> abarth: (a) report it to the SVG and SMIL WGs, (b) limit the animation code to non-JS attributes by whitelisting the animatable ones
  296. # [08:58] <abarth> sounds reasonable
  297. # [08:58] <Hixie> but yeah, it's just yet more reason blacklist filters are doomed
  298. # [08:58] <Hixie> jgraham: agreed on all counts
  299. # [08:59] <Hixie> abarth: did you see the URL-related bug?
  300. # [08:59] <abarth> 10410 ?
  301. # [08:59] <abarth> i just commented on it
  302. # [09:00] <abarth> i love that every browser is different
  303. # [09:00] <abarth> at least on different parts of that test case
  304. # [09:00] <abarth> ;a just disappears for Firefox
  305. # [09:01] <abarth> etc
  306. # [09:08] <Hixie> heh
  307. # [09:09] <Hixie> abarth: how about the other way around? fragment #%23, say?
  308. # [09:09] <Hixie> does it unescape?
  309. # [09:11] <abarth> generally speaking, there are two approaches browsers take
  310. # [09:11] <abarth> IE+Chrome have a canonical representation for each character in each part of the URL
  311. # [09:11] <abarth> and they like to transform things to their canonical representation
  312. # [09:12] <abarth> Firefox+Safari on the other hand
  313. # [09:12] <abarth> like to keep things in the original form
  314. # [09:12] <abarth> but will canonicalize "problematic" characters
  315. # [09:12] <abarth> e.g., that aren't representable in a reasonably way
  316. # [09:12] <abarth> e.g., a ":" character in the scheme
  317. # [09:13] <abarth> some characters are so nutty, that the proper way to represent them in some parts of the URL is as a percent-encoded HTML entity
  318. # [09:13] <abarth> (i couldn't make this stuff up)
  319. # [09:14] <abarth> IMHO, the aggressive canonicalizing behavior is better
  320. # [09:14] <abarth> because you don't get confused by HTTP schemes when you meant http, etc
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  322. # [09:15] <abarth> also, other folks who parse URLs after you are more likely to get the result you expect :)
  323. # [09:17] <Hixie> k well i guess i'll wontfix this bug on the assumption that in due course this will all become defined by your spec and i'll eventually just defer to that
  324. # [09:18] <abarth> makes sense to me
  325. # [09:18] <abarth> i need to find a good solid week to dig into this stuff and get the spec in reasonable shape
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  332. # [10:05] <annevk> Hixie, hmm, I do like x-vendor-feature, I wonder what I said in that bug report
  333. # [10:06] <Hixie> heh
  334. # [10:06] <Hixie> so long as you like it, we're good. :-)
  335. # [10:07] <annevk> "I think we should reserve everything apart from x-vendor-feature." what I meant was that only x-vendor-feature should be playground for UAs, the rest should be available to whoever is in charge of HTML
  336. # [10:09] <Hixie> aah
  337. # [10:09] <Hixie> by "reserve" i meant "guarantee that we'll never use"
  338. # [10:09] <annevk> fair enough
  339. # [10:13] <annevk> Hixie, in Safari I get Windows-1252 / Windows-1254
  340. # [10:13] <Hixie> yeah i get that on mac too
  341. # [10:13] <Hixie> dunno what he's doing
  342. # [10:14] <annevk> doesn't that mean it does not ignore escapes?
  343. # [10:14] <annevk> as he says?
  344. # [10:15] <Hixie> er wait, what do you get?
  345. # [10:15] * Hixie looks again
  346. # [10:15] <annevk> I'm not on a nightly though
  347. # [10:16] <Hixie> for http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/113.html i get 1252/1252 for chrome and safari nightlies
  348. # [10:16] <annevk> aah, I see
  349. # [10:16] <Hixie> sorry, misread what you wrote
  350. # [10:16] <annevk> so Safari changed!
  351. # [10:16] <annevk> that is even more of an indication that I was correct
  352. # [10:16] <Hixie> i wonder if safari changed or if it's a mac/windows thing
  353. # [10:16] <Hixie> let me test older safari on mac
  354. # [10:16] <annevk> well, I have a Mac here too
  355. # [10:16] <annevk> but only stable Safari
  356. # [10:16] <annevk> 5.02 or some such
  357. # [10:16] <Hixie> wohay, yes, older safari did 1252/1254
  358. # [10:17] <Hixie> interesting!
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  363. # [10:20] <annevk> ooh, <s> is valid now
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  366. # [10:25] <jgraham> I love bugs that are just statements
  367. # [10:25] <jgraham> "Sections may contain headings of any rank
  368. # [10:25] <jgraham> "
  369. # [10:25] * zcorpan updated html5-elements
  370. # [10:26] <hsivonen> it'll be interesting to see what happens if Julian and Leif disagree on <s>
  371. # [10:27] <Hixie> heh
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  377. # [10:35] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm confused. i thought the ARIA change for 'grid' was that HTML <table> elements, etc, no longer were considered examples of those. But the spec linked to in the bug still lists HTML table as being the "base concept" for 'grid'?
  378. # [10:35] <othermaciej> Hixie: "base concept" apparently is supposed to mean "sort of resembles this other thing" rather than "this other thing is an example of fulfilling this role"
  379. # [10:36] <Hixie> o_O
  380. # [10:36] <othermaciej> "base concept" strikes me as a fuzzy concept
  381. # [10:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: <table> is a table and <table role=grid> is semantically like <datagrid>, AFAICT
  382. # [10:36] <othermaciej> the thing they actually changed is that the grid role is now defined as only referring to an interactive grid control
  383. # [10:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: can you quote where in ARIA it says that?
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  385. # [10:37] <Hixie> othermaciej: in an AT, a <table> is an interactive control
  386. # [10:37] <Hixie> othermaciej: so...?
  387. # [10:37] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm confused
  388. # [10:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: this is the understanding I have inferred from extensive tea leaf reading over time. I'm not looking at the ARIA spec right now.
  389. # [10:38] <othermaciej> "A grid is an interactive control which contains cells of tabular data arranged in rows and columns, like a table."
  390. # [10:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: k. I'm trying to work out what the spec actually says, rather than what they meant it to say. I find the latter to lead to even more pain than the former.
  391. # [10:38] <othermaciej> you could argue that AT makes absolutely everything "interactive", but that would be a silly inference in context
  392. # [10:38] <Hixie> othermaciej: sounds exactly like what an AT does with <table> to me.
  393. # [10:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: IIRC, I have outstanding LC comments on ARIA regarding whether <table role=grid> should imply role=gridcell on every <td> in that table
  394. # [10:38] <othermaciej> yes, but the role is supposed to be about what the non-AT semantics are
  395. # [10:39] <othermaciej> so they can be exposed to AT
  396. # [10:39] <Hixie> othermaciej: i thought ARIA was about what ATs did
  397. # [10:39] <othermaciej> ARIA is about expressing how the content behaves in a way that AT can see and act upon
  398. # [10:39] <Hixie> othermaciej: if an AT treats a table and an interactive grid in the same way, why would they have different roles?
  399. # [10:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: I gather the idea is that non-interactive tables and interactive datagrids would be exposed differently to AT
  400. # [10:40] <othermaciej> apparently at least some accessibility APIs expose data tables and interactive grid controls (datagrid type things) in different ways
  401. # [10:40] <hsivonen> I have absolutely no idea if they actually *are* in existing implemetations
  402. # [10:40] <Hixie> what could the difference be?
  403. # [10:40] <othermaciej> I believe they are the same role in Mac OS X / iOS accessibility APIs
  404. # [10:40] <Hixie> i'm honestly curious
  405. # [10:41] <Hixie> so ARIA can't represent non-interactive grids?
  406. # [10:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: right. you'd use plain old HTML tables for those
  407. # [10:41] <Hixie> just like you'd use a plain old HTML heading for a heading?
  408. # [10:41] <Hixie> but they still have role=heading?
  409. # [10:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: right
  410. # [10:41] <Hixie> ARIA makes less and less sense the more i try to apply it
  411. # [10:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: someone might make a heading out of <div>s but only hard-core "tables are evil" folks make non-interactive tables out of <div>s
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  415. # [10:43] <Hixie> someone making a heading out of <div>s is not writing conforming html
  416. # [10:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: ARIA is about putting duct tape on HTML as practiced--not only as conforming
  417. # [10:44] <Hixie> and why would they make interactive tables out of divs but not non-interactive ones?
  418. # [10:44] <jgraham> Really if you are making a heading out of <div>s the chance of you being clueful enough to use aria seem slim
  419. # [10:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't know why role=gridcell exists
  420. # [10:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: but you'd make interactive grids out of <table>
  421. # [10:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: hence <table role=grid>
  422. # [10:45] <Hixie> well i sure hope web authors can make head or tail of this
  423. # [10:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: see http://diveintomark.org/archives/2009/03/21/accessibility-is-a-harsh-mistress
  424. # [10:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: also, see GWT
  425. # [10:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: sola scriptura doesn't work here, you need to consider the tradition for context
  426. # [10:47] <Hixie> nevermind
  427. # [10:47] <othermaciej> from what I can tell, UIA is the only accessibility API to distinguish between grids and tables
  428. # [10:47] <Hixie> i've moved on
  429. # [10:47] <annevk> jgraham, but expensive IBM consultants will do it for you!
  430. # [10:47] <annevk> jgraham, it's great
  431. # [10:48] <othermaciej> out of reasonably popular ones
  432. # [10:49] <othermaciej> I think the notion of interactivity is vaguely believed to be about keyboard navigability, though that is not a device-independent distinction -- it makes no sense on systems that the multitouch UI paradigm instead of mouse/keyboard
  433. # [10:49] <othermaciej> GMail is almost completely made out of <div>s
  434. # [10:49] <othermaciej> except for the occasional stray <span> or <a>
  435. # [10:50] <othermaciej> looking at GMail with the Web Inspector makes me cry with sad
  436. # [10:52] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net)
  437. # [10:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: GWT generates aria?
  438. # [10:55] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@ac242062.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: jdaggett)
  439. # [10:57] <Hixie> abarth, othermaciej: any comment on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10625#c6 from a webkit perspective?
  440. # [10:57] <hsivonen> jgraham: I gather it does.
  441. # [10:58] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think <https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43328> says it all - we'd like some behavior that doesn't lead to that regression, which to my limited understanding the spec does not exactly forbid but does not require either
  442. # [10:58] <Hixie> k
  443. # [10:58] <jgraham> hsivonen: Wow. I thought that there was no new badness to discover about GWT
  444. # [10:59] <jgraham> (assuming it uses ARIA instead of, rather than in addition to, good HTML)
  445. # [10:59] <othermaciej> jgraham: given that it's making <div> soup, I don't think ARIA counts as net marginal badness
  446. # [11:00] <jgraham> othermaciej: If it has the information needed to write useful aria, it presumably also has the information needed to use the correct elements
  447. # [11:00] <othermaciej> jgraham: I do wonder about that
  448. # [11:00] <othermaciej> not just for GWT but for other also clearly autogenerated div soup UIs like GMail
  449. # [11:01] <othermaciej> is custom styling of <button> interoperable enough that you could use it in place of <div role=button>, without incurring cross-browser compat headaches?
  450. # [11:01] <othermaciej> I don't actually know
  451. # [11:01] <jgraham> Maybe form controls are harder
  452. # [11:01] <jgraham> But headings are gimmes
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  456. # [11:03] <othermaciej> GMail has some <span role=link>
  457. # [11:03] <othermaciej> that just seems like needless self-torture
  458. # [11:04] <jgraham> That's just sad
  459. # [11:04] <jgraham> I heard an unverified rumor that facebook uses <u href>
  460. # [11:06] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  461. # [11:09] <zcorpan> jgraham: looking around on a few random pages on facebook, javascript:alert(document.getElementsByTagName('u').length) gives 0
  462. # [11:10] <jgraham> zcorpan: Hmm, maybe I misunderstood
  463. # [11:10] <jgraham> Or it could be mobile facebook or something
  464. # [11:11] <zcorpan> yeah, i see <u href> on touch.facebook.com
  465. # [11:11] <jgraham> hsivonen: BTW did you have any thoughts on Hixie's idea of making the stack of open elements hold the insertion mode?
  466. # [11:11] <Hixie> i don't plan on actually doing it btw
  467. # [11:11] <jgraham> Hixie: Oh, that's sad
  468. # [11:11] <Hixie> it was just as idea of what we could do on the long term if we ever decided to revamp how we wrote the spec
  469. # [11:12] <Hixie> it's possible that it would work better as an implementation strategy though
  470. # [11:12] <Hixie> it would make the 'reset' algorithm O(1)
  471. # [11:12] <jgraham> Hixie: It feels like it might fix up lots of the scary stuff around foreign content
  472. # [11:12] <Hixie> at the cost of making the stack more expensive
  473. # [11:12] <jgraham> You would still need the reset algorithm for fragment parsing
  474. # [11:12] <Hixie> i just rewrote the foreign content section to be less scary (without changing it normatively, i hope)
  475. # [11:13] <Hixie> yeah you'd need to reset once at the start, but that's O(1) also
  476. # [11:13] <Hixie> since the stack is more or less empty then
  477. # [11:13] * hsivonen considers whether to escalate http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10589 into an ISSUE
  478. # [11:13] <jgraham> True
  479. # [11:14] <Hixie> anyway the foreign content section isn't anywhere near as bad now
  480. # [11:14] <jgraham> Hixie: I guess I will look at it to decide that :)
  481. # [11:14] <Hixie> (it's still not what hsivonen wants, but it's better than what it was, imho)
  482. # [11:14] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I don't agree with the resolution but I'm not gonna escalate it myself
  483. # [11:15] <hsivonen> jgraham: my thought about having the stack hold the insertion mode is that it's not an optimization the spec should make
  484. # [11:15] <jgraham> hsivonen: Why optimisation? It feels like the right mental model
  485. # [11:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: what's the most appropriate bug to dump my thoughts about the modeness of "in foreign" into?
  486. # [11:16] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think the right mental model is first checking if the current node isn't in the HTML namespace and doing what's now in the in foreign mode
  487. # [11:16] <hsivonen> and if the current node is in the HTML namespace, doing all the insertion mode stuff
  488. # [11:17] <jgraham> hsivonen: It doesn't only help for that case though
  489. # [11:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: a new one probably
  490. # [11:17] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'm not sure what case we are talking about?
  491. # [11:17] <jgraham> foreign content
  492. # [11:17] <hsivonen> I don't know what problem is being solved
  493. # [11:17] <jgraham> Unless I am missing something it mostly eliminates the "reset the insertion mode"
  494. # [11:17] <jgraham> stuff
  495. # [11:18] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'm open to remembering the insertion mode on stack
  496. # [11:18] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think it might even be a good thing
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  499. # [11:18] <hsivonen> jgraham: my main concern is that Hixie is resisting the de-mode-ification of "in foreign" on optimization grounds
  500. # [11:18] <hsivonen> and having it as a mode has already resulted in a number of egde case bugs
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  502. # [11:19] <jgraham> I generally agree that the spec shouldn't worry too hard about optimisation
  503. # [11:19] <hsivonen> jgraham: so before I support remembering the mode, I want to know if it's solving something other than letting "in foreign" continue to be a mode
  504. # [11:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: fwiw, I think <p><figure> is like <p><table> all over again
  505. # [11:22] <Hixie> the remembering the mode thing doesn't really have anything to do with foreign stuff
  506. # [11:22] <Hixie> it just gets rid of the reset algorithm
  507. # [11:22] <Hixie> while parsing
  508. # [11:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: and in the <p><table> case we now have a comment in the spec source saying you hate yourself because of it
  509. # [11:22] <Hixie> (it's entirely an optimisation)
  510. # [11:23] <Hixie> hsivonen: what i hate myself for is that it's a quirk
  511. # [11:23] <Hixie> hsivonen: if i were designing the language from scratch it wouldn't be a quirk and would always close <p>
  512. # [11:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: If I were designing the language from scratch, <p> would never autoclose
  513. # [11:24] <Hixie> i don't understand why we'd want inline <figure>s or <table>s, but especially <figure>s
  514. # [11:24] <Hixie> i'm not worried about the autoclosing behaviour so much as the content model
  515. # [11:24] <othermaciej> if you were designing from scratch, would you make <ul> close <p>?
  516. # [11:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: authors regularly try to put tables inside paragraphs. Priority of constituencies.
  517. # [11:24] <Hixie> the autoclosing behaviour is nothing but a function of the content model
  518. # [11:24] <Hixie> othermaciej: dunno, maybe. I probably wouldn't use SGML-like syntax in the first place.
  519. # [11:24] * jgraham agrees with hsivonen fwiw
  520. # [11:24] <jgraham> Hardcoding this stuff into the parser just seems bad
  521. # [11:24] <Hixie> hsivonen: intentionally, or because of the quirk?
  522. # [11:25] <othermaciej> but people do put inline lists in paragraphs, and it's lame that you can't mark them up as such
  523. # [11:25] <jgraham> Because you can never ever change it again
  524. # [11:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: intentionally and then they find out HTML parsing in the standards mode doesn't let them
  525. # [11:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, find out after they have whined on www-validator
  526. # [11:25] <Hixie> we had this in xhtml5 for a while, and people complained
  527. # [11:25] <Hixie> so...
  528. # [11:26] <Hixie> like i said, my main concern is the content model
  529. # [11:26] <othermaciej> for <figure> it seems sensible to have a figure in a paragraph that is floated left or right, or displayed a la inline-block
  530. # [11:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: wasn't the complaint there about HTML and XHTML differing?
  531. # [11:26] <Hixie> if figure is flow, not phrasing, then it has to close <p> or the syntax just becomes incomprehensibly quirky.
  532. # [11:26] <othermaciej> unless you would argue that an image + caption combination in such a context is not a figure
  533. # [11:26] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@dnuhd.xs4all.nl)
  534. # [11:27] <Hixie> othermaciej: if it's not actually inline, what's the point of putting it inlien in the markup? just have it before or after the <p>
  535. # [11:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'd expect implicit </p> to already be incomprehensibly quirky for most people who aren't regulars on this channel
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  537. # [11:28] <jgraham> Hixie: Authors don't understand flow vs phrasing. They just try to do stuff and get surprised when it breaks
  538. # [11:30] <Hixie> i do not believe that people are putting <figure>s in the middle of their paragraphs and floating them and then wondering why there's a line break.
  539. # [11:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: around 2002ish, I worked around the lack of figure by creating one from <span>s, not <div>s, precisely to get the floating I wanted
  540. # [11:31] <Hixie> what difference would span vs div do to floating??
  541. # [11:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: the alignment with the text in the paragraph when the paragraph has margin/padding/border
  542. # [11:32] <Hixie> just stick a div around it
  543. # [11:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: srly?
  544. # [11:32] <Hixie> "srly?
  545. # [11:32] <Hixie> s/y\?/y"?/
  546. # [11:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: you are suggesting adding divs in order to work around a problem you are creating?
  547. # [11:33] <Hixie> no i'm suggesting adding divs to get the effect you want with margin collapsing
  548. # [11:34] <Hixie> whereas you are suggesting corrupting the content model because you want to achieve a particular presentational effect
  549. # [11:34] <Hixie> (one can spin this both ways! ;-) )
  550. # [11:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: what if the float is higher than one para? where should divs go?
  551. # [11:35] <hsivonen> http://fimug.fi/mugi-illoista
  552. # [11:35] <hsivonen> there's an example of <span>s I coded long ago
  553. # [11:36] <Hixie> you really don't think having the span as the first child of the <p> is a hack on that page?
  554. # [11:36] <Hixie> it's so glaringly wrong to me
  555. # [11:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's right for the CSS formatting model
  556. # [11:37] <hsivonen> which is the model we have
  557. # [11:37] <Hixie> (re your question, the height doesn't matter - you just need to have the div contain the figure and the first p after the figure)
  558. # [11:38] <Hixie> we shouldn't screw up HTML's content model and parser just to work around a quick of the CSS margin collapsing rules that can pretty easily be fixed in a future version
  559. # [11:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: when the div interferes with p following p selectors and/or margin collapsing
  560. # [11:38] <jgraham> Different question: Did the tokenizer always not emit a tag token for '<img href="foo' or is that a recent change?
  561. # [11:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: if EOF happens inside the tag, the token hasn't been emitted for quite some time
  562. # [11:38] <annevk> it's been that way for a while I think
  563. # [11:38] <Hixie> instead of asking for a change to HTML, ask for a change to CSS -- add keyword 'flush-next' or some such to 'margin-top' which causes the margin to grow so as to have a border-top equal to the border-top of the next element in the margins from which the element has been removed from flow
  564. # [11:39] <zcorpan> jgraham: i think that changed about a year ago or so
  565. # [11:39] <jgraham> That's what I thought
  566. # [11:39] <jgraham> Hmm
  567. # [11:39] <Hixie> (hard to express in english, but pretty simple in css terms)
  568. # [11:39] <jgraham> Maybe there wasn't a test for the attribute case before
  569. # [11:39] <Hixie> hsivonen: you're like a man with a hammer, and your hammer is the parser. :-) we can change more parts of the web platform than just html
  570. # [11:40] <Hixie> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46873#c3 is interesting, re x-foo-bar
  571. # [11:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'd rather not whack authors with the hammer when legacy behavior doesn't require <figure> to close <p>
  572. # [11:40] * jgraham still really dislikes adding new elements to the list of ones with magic behaviour in the parser
  573. # [11:40] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  574. # [11:41] <Hixie> hsivonen: as noted above, i'm not really interested in the issue of the parser here, imho what the parser does is entirely a function of the content model
  575. # [11:41] <annevk> since <figure> is block it makes sense to me
  576. # [11:41] <annevk> right, what Hixie just said
  577. # [11:41] <Hixie> hsivonen: if <figure> is not phrasing content, then it should close <p>, it's just asking for bugs otherwise
  578. # [11:41] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi)
  579. # [11:41] <Hixie> and if it isn't, then it shouldn't, obviously
  580. # [11:42] <hsivonen> I'll try to cool off for a few hours before I decide whether I escalate.
  581. # [11:42] <Hixie> (and should be scoping, since it can contain <p>... but that's another reason imho it shouldn't be allowed in <p>)
  582. # [11:42] <othermaciej> Hixie: indeed - doesn't seem so great to apply the pattern to event handler attributes
  583. # [11:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think hardcoding content models into the parser is a mistake when legacy doesn't require it
  584. # [11:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: if </p> has an optional end tag, it has an optional end tag; as bad as optional end tags are, they're even worse if they're not optional based on what the following sibling is.
  585. # [11:43] <annevk> hsivonen, so you think <section> should not imply </p>? what about </section>?
  586. # [11:43] <annevk> hsivonen, what about <datalist> and <option>?
  587. # [11:44] <jgraham> </section> popping to the nearest ancestor <section> seems entirely different
  588. # [11:44] <Hixie> if anyone has an idea for https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46873#c3, please file a bug
  589. # [11:44] <Hixie> i have to go to bed now
  590. # [11:44] <Hixie> i'll let anne take over :-)
  591. # [11:44] <Hixie> nn
  592. # [11:44] <jgraham> I could live with <section> not closing <p>
  593. # [11:44] <annevk> o_O
  594. # [11:44] <hsivonen> annevk: I think making section close <p> doesn't close any realistic doors
  595. # [11:45] <hsivonen> annevk: but it's pretty bogus in terms of Degrade Gracefully
  596. # [11:46] <annevk> Hixie, for event handler attributes I think on<vendor><feature> makes sense
  597. # [11:46] <annevk> Hixie, even for normal attributes maybe <vendor><feature> makes sense, especially if the IDL attributes are <vendor><Feature>
  598. # [11:46] <othermaciej> it should match the event name, so assuming that's <vendor><feature>, I think that's the right suggestion
  599. # [11:47] <hsivonen> on-x-webkit-foo
  600. # [11:47] <othermaciej> (of course, it is kind of awkward for the prefix to have no punctuation, when event names are often all-lowercase
  601. # [11:47] <othermaciej> hsivonen, even if the event is named webkitfoo?
  602. # [11:47] <hsivonen> othermaciej: good point
  603. # [11:48] <othermaciej> or are you suggesting a change of convention for experimental/proprietary event names as well?
  604. # [11:48] <annevk> unless we get weird vendor names I do not think this matters much
  605. # [11:48] <annevk> ms/moz/o/webkit are all prefixes we are probably not going to use
  606. # [11:48] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I withdraw my suggestion
  607. # [11:48] <annevk> so I think we do not need x- for <vendor>-<feature> attributes either prolly
  608. # [11:50] <zcorpan> annevk: 'o' as a prefix without punctuation seems likely to clash
  609. # [11:50] <zcorpan> annevk: e.g. there's an attribute called 'open'
  610. # [11:50] <zcorpan> what if opera wants a 'pen' attribute
  611. # [11:50] <annevk> o-pen
  612. # [11:50] <annevk> oPen
  613. # [11:50] <annevk> both different
  614. # [11:50] <zcorpan> oh, with a dash
  615. # [11:51] <annevk> and we could use opera for HTML and events
  616. # [11:51] <annevk> I think we might do that already
  617. # [11:51] <zcorpan> well, we'll just have to convince the future Data and Aria browsers to use a different name for their prefixes :P
  618. # [11:52] <annevk> that should be no problem
  619. # [11:53] <jgraham> I like the x-
  620. # [11:53] <jgraham> I think it conveys a sense of danger
  621. # [11:53] <jgraham> Which is fitting in the circumstances
  622. # [11:54] <zcorpan> why is there no x in IDL extensions?
  623. # [11:55] <annevk> yeah, if it's not in the IDL it makes no sense to have it in markup
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  630. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> it'd be useful to get the RDFa WG some comments on the current RDFa API spec -
  631. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100923/
  632. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> which just went to FPWD a few days ago
  633. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> actually, it seems to have already been published as a FPWD in June
  634. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> but an updated WD was just published on the 23rd
  635. # [12:15] <annevk> but we don't want to implement RDFa
  636. # [12:15] <annevk> it's like giving comments on XHTML2
  637. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100923/#sotd
  638. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> did XHTML2 have any APIs?
  639. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> are we implementing the Microdata API in browsers?
  640. # [12:17] <annevk> we probably will
  641. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> really?
  642. # [12:17] <annevk> I saw Gecko bug on it too
  643. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> why?
  644. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> hmm
  645. # [12:17] <annevk> with patches
  646. # [12:18] <MikeSmith> they will probably get patches for the RDFa API as well
  647. # [12:18] <annevk> sure, they got patches for XForms too
  648. # [12:20] * Joins: oal (~oal@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net)
  649. # [12:22] <MikeSmith> https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2010-September/014544.html
  650. # [12:22] <MikeSmith> "New Rich Text Editing Test suite"
  651. # [12:22] <MikeSmith> for contentEditable
  652. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> http://www.browserscope.org/richtext2/test
  653. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> hey, a frames-based layout
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  657. # [12:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the microdata API patches are from David Zbarsky, so it's a bit different from general "getting patches"
  658. # [12:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that is, at least his other bugs are more coordinated than someone just showing up with patches.
  659. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> ok
  660. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> I don't know David… is he related to Boris?
  661. # [12:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: they are brothers
  662. # [12:34] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  663. # [12:38] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10806 -- I wonder how Julian plans on getting this past CR
  664. # [12:39] <annevk> He's just process-trolling; not actually helping getting this resolved to his satisfaction in any way :/
  665. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> we want to do DOM Range in WebApps, right?
  666. # [12:45] <smaug____> certainly not in whatwg
  667. # [12:48] <smaug____> I wonder if webapps could do DOM Range 2, 2nd revision or something
  668. # [12:48] <smaug____> which would be just re-writing the spec without any functional changes
  669. # [12:48] <smaug____> (Opera and Webkit probably object that because they don't conform with range anyway)
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  671. # [12:53] <annevk> we don't?
  672. # [12:54] <smaug____> the acid3 thingie
  673. # [12:54] <annevk> what thingie?
  674. # [12:54] <smaug____> acid3 allows non-conforming handling
  675. # [12:54] <annevk> a new revision should have at least the Gecko proprietary extensions everyone copied
  676. # [12:55] <smaug____> the extensions could go to Range 3
  677. # [12:55] <smaug____> or perhaps we don't need range 2, 2nd revision
  678. # [12:56] <smaug____> but it might take long enough to just re-write range 2
  679. # [12:56] <smaug____> range 3 could be done in the same time
  680. # [12:57] <smaug____> similar to what happens with XHR 1&2
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  683. # [13:13] <annevk> lets not take xhr 1&2 as example for anything
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  717. # [15:17] <morelli> hi is the pubdate attribute on time element is suposed to be empty or not or what :D ?
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  798. # [17:49] <TabAtkins> It's a boolean attribute, so it doesn't need to have a value in HTML. In XHTML, write it as pubdate="pubdate".
  799. # [17:49] <TabAtkins> D'oh. Didn't check beforehand when that question was asked, or if the asker was still around. ;_;
  800. # [17:49] <KaOSoFt> ._:
  801. # [17:49] <KaOSoFt> ._.
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  821. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> KaOSoFt: I prefer your 3-eyed mutant.
  822. # [18:21] <Workshiva> Don't be so geneist
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  834. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> Also, I don't know why everyone doesn't just switch to RDFa5 http://www.xanthir.com/rdfa5.html
  835. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> that page is unsatisfying
  836. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> it lacks an invisible metadata of any kind at all
  837. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> let alone mineable invisible metadata
  838. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> I ensure that all metadata is visible, and non-meta.
  839. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> actually, I've coined a new acronym
  840. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> MUM
  841. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> = mineable Un-visible metadata
  842. # [18:41] <TabAtkins> Keep MUM about it?
  843. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> see, you like it already
  844. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> it's catching on quickly
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  847. # [18:41] <TabAtkins> If this rate keeps up, it'll be an international phenonemon in less than a month.
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  849. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> and the royalty checks will start pouring in
  850. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> and I can use the money to invest in my new business idea
  851. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> which is hush-hush for now
  852. # [18:44] <Anti-X> that page uses uppercase tags, which makes me want to shoot them in the face
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  854. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> Blame the browser that saved the HTML for me.
  855. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> but just to give a clue, my business idea involves a combination of Segway and parachute
  856. # [18:44] <Anti-X> i'll shoot you in the face then?
  857. # [18:45] <Anti-X> let me just get started first.. *opens porn*
  858. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> Anti-X: No, shoot Chrome in the face. Which I suppose involves shooting me in the face, yes.
  859. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> Also: eww.
  860. # [18:45] <Anti-X> you know you like it
  861. # [18:45] <Anti-X> ... better than a real shooting
  862. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> I suppose so, yes, but that's like one of those questions you ask each other when you're drunk - "Would you rather X or Y" - and then either answer makes you weird because you have to explain it.
  863. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> Anyway, I'm out for a bit.
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  870. # [18:53] <Anti-X> yeah except i'm not drunk, so it's not like that at all
  871. # [18:53] <Anti-X> :P
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  873. # [18:59] <Philip`> AryehGregor: dvcs.w3.org seems to be working again
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  880. # [19:12] <MikeSmith> systems team has been doing some kind of migration on dvcs.w3.org and test.w3.org
  881. # [19:12] <MikeSmith> I'm not sure if they are completely done yet
  882. # [19:12] <MikeSmith> so you might notice other problems in the mean time
  883. # [19:14] <Philip`> I noticed that the changelog Atom entries all got duplicated
  884. # [19:14] <Philip`> but otherwise it seems okay so far
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  886. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> ok
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  901. # [20:10] <loucapo> hey annevk, thanks again for the help the other day
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  935. # [21:08] <loucapo> hey does anyone here know why cross-origin xmlhttpreq in chrome/safari are workign fine but FF3.x and 4 are barking about it?
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  944. # [21:31] <jacobolus> loucapo: https://developer.mozilla.org/En/HTTP_Access_Control
  945. # [21:31] <jacobolus> is that what you're asking for?
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  947. # [21:33] <jacobolus> loucapo: here are some examples http://arunranga.com/examples/access-control/
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  949. # [21:34] <loucapo> perhaps, though I thought i had it working. will read this, thanks.
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  961. # [21:49] <Peter-> http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20018146-264.html
  962. # [21:49] <Peter-> Following a video format.. an image format
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  964. # [21:49] <Peter-> "Google offers JPEG alternative for faster Web"
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  967. # [21:56] * Philip` wonders why anyone would care about that
  968. # [21:56] <Philip`> since JPEG is basically good enough
  969. # [21:57] <espadrine> Especially if the world is leaning towards massive use of video, which is far more memory-consuming.
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  972. # [21:59] <Rik`> Philip`: is there any technology that stays good enough ?
  973. # [22:01] <Philip`> Lots of technology stays good enough to not be worth the effort of upgrading the entire world
  974. # [22:02] <Rik`> name one :)
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  976. # [22:02] <espadrine> JPEG XR
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  978. # [22:02] * slightlyoff_ is now known as slightlyoff
  979. # [22:03] <Philip`> HTML
  980. # [22:03] <Rik`> HTML has evolved
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  982. # [22:03] <Philip`> Everything evolves
  983. # [22:04] <Philip`> (including JPEG)
  984. # [22:04] <Dashiva> HTML... never changes
  985. # [22:05] <espadrine> Although JPEG2000 didn't gain much usage share, did it?
  986. # [22:06] <Philip`> About zero
  987. # [22:06] <Philip`> because JPEG was good enough
  988. # [22:06] <Rik`> or because it hasn't been implemented
  989. # [22:07] <espadrine> It depends on how amazingly awesome the new stuff is, I suppose.
  990. # [22:07] <espadrine> If there is a wow factor, people adopt it.
  991. # [22:08] <gsnedders> And also people are more likely to spend more time implementing it better
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  1012. # [23:01] <Rik`> http://blog.chromium.org/2010/09/webp-new-image-format-for-web.html
  1013. # [23:02] <Rik`> improving 65% of a page by 39% seems pretty good to me
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  1016. # [23:03] <Rik`> plus transparency in a future update
  1017. # [23:04] <Rik`> this part seems pretty interesting
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  1021. # [23:06] <aho> oh boy oh boy
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  1024. # [23:10] <aho> i'm disappointed that they didn't add transparency right away
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  1026. # [23:10] <aho> the web really needs some lossy true color image format with support for transparency
  1027. # [23:10] <aho> if it's something photo based, png32 is just too f-ing huge
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  1029. # [23:11] <Philip`> Rik`: They say they saved an average 39% on a collection of JPEG/PNG/GIF images without "perceptibly" affecting quality
  1030. # [23:12] <Philip`> which seems a pretty useless number if I'm interpreting it right
  1031. # [23:12] <Philip`> because one person might have a photo saved as a 5MB PNG and they'd get huge compression improvements by encoding even as plain old JPEG
  1032. # [23:13] <aho> Philip`, check the gallery: http://code.google.com/speed/webp/gallery.html
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  1034. # [23:13] <Rik`> yes, that only says "if everyone uses webp instead of what they're doing now, we'll save 39%"
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  1036. # [23:14] <Philip`> It'd be more useful if they did comparisons against JPEG re-encoding with equivalent quality loss, and against the dozens of other JPEG-but-slighty-better formats that exist
  1037. # [23:15] <Rik`> they did the first one
  1038. # [23:16] <jacobolus> is there a list of SVG tests someplace?
  1039. # [23:16] <jacobolus> that wants tests added?
  1040. # [23:16] <aho> ye, a comparison with jp2 and jpg xr would have ben nice
  1041. # [23:16] <Philip`> Rik`: Where?
  1042. # [23:16] <aho> +e
  1043. # [23:17] <aho> well, in about 10 years we can use jp2 :>
  1044. # [23:17] <Rik`> the link aho posted
  1045. # [23:17] <jacobolus> safari apparently currently supports marker-start, marker-mid, marker-end, but not marker as attributes on paths
  1046. # [23:19] <Philip`> Rik`: That says they're comparing against JPEG originals (which might have stupid compression settings), not against re-encoded JPEGs
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  1049. # [23:21] <Philip`> Rik`: e.g. they claim 76% improvement on http://code.google.com/speed/webp/images/2.jpg, but if I just save it as a JPEG in Gimp then I can get 76% improvement without it looking much different
  1050. # [23:23] <jacobolus> Rik`, Philip`: the webp images seem to have their color profiles stripped?
  1051. # [23:24] <jacobolus> espadrine: JP2 is used a lot by people archiving very large images
  1052. # [23:24] <jacobolus> it's just not used by consumer-facing web apps
  1053. # [23:25] <Philip`> (The fact you can get a big improvement by just recompressing as marginally lower quality JPEG indicates that most people don't care about image size anyway)
  1054. # [23:25] <jacobolus> decoders for JPEG 2000 are much much slower than decoders for JPEG
  1055. # [23:26] <jacobolus> Philip`: or it indicates that grabbing the originals uploaded to wikipedia is a bad way to find compressed images
  1056. # [23:26] <jacobolus> I believe the wikipedia thumbnails are reasonably compressed. the originals should be as high quality as possible IMO
  1057. # [23:27] <jacobolus> because you never know what someone might want to do with them, and they won't be served to article page viewers
  1058. # [23:27] <annevk> ah, WebP is out
  1059. # [23:27] <annevk> and my inbox is full of bugmail yay
  1060. # [23:28] <Philip`> Are there better benchmarks of WebP anywhere that I'm missing?
  1061. # [23:28] <jacobolus> also, if google wants to use the lena image, they should just ask playboy; the magazine hasn't had any problem in the past with its use
  1062. # [23:29] <annevk> "<video> element needs to support some form of parental control solution" whoa
  1063. # [23:29] <annevk> lets boil the ocean
  1064. # [23:29] <aho> the internet is AO rated
  1065. # [23:29] <Philip`> Better add parental controls to <img> first
  1066. # [23:30] <jacobolus> using webp for images seems to me like a really stupid thing to be pushing
  1067. # [23:30] <jacobolus> I guess they want to hype the video format?
  1068. # [23:30] <annevk> John Foliot is also asking for DRM
  1069. # [23:31] <annevk> fun times
  1070. # [23:31] <aho> lol :>
  1071. # [23:31] <Philip`> http://code.google.com/speed/webp/docs/c_study.html - ah, that has more data
  1072. # [23:32] <jacobolus> yeah, their jpeg 2000 numbers seem pretty sketchy
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  1074. # [23:33] <jacobolus> is there any evidence that PSNR is a good metric for "human-detectable degradation"
  1075. # [23:33] <Philip`> Seems the average improvement over (Re-)JPEG is more like 20%
  1076. # [23:34] <Philip`> Are WebP and/or JPEG and/or JPEG2K optimised for PSNR?
  1077. # [23:34] <jacobolus> I'd be very interested to see what the JPEG 2000 inventors have to say about this study
  1078. # [23:34] <jacobolus> also, they took existing jpeg images to convert, it looks like?
  1079. # [23:35] <jacobolus> of arbitrary provenance
  1080. # [23:35] <jacobolus> some of those might be ickily compressed with lots of artifacts aligned with jpeg block boundaries
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  1086. # [23:43] <Philip`> http://code.google.com/speed/webp/index.html - "Did you know? WebP is pronounced "weppy"." - no it's not, it's pronounced "web pee"
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  1090. # [23:45] * Quits: Twisol (~Twisol@cpe-76-166-195-41.socal.res.rr.com) (Changing host)
  1091. # [23:45] * Joins: Twisol (~Twisol@wikia/Oddlyoko)
  1092. # [23:46] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1093. # [23:49] * Parts: Twisol (~Twisol@wikia/Oddlyoko)
  1094. # [23:50] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@ip-213-49-114-178.dsl.scarlet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1095. # [23:51] * Quits: jochen__ (~jochen@nat/google/x-zqiaksugfevixyep) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  1096. # [23:52] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.107) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1097. # Session Close: Fri Oct 01 00:00:00 2010

The end :)