/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-10-19 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 19 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  4. # [00:04] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMMDCCLV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  5. # [00:10] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113asw@host-66-96-230-24.midco.net)
  6. # [00:10] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113asw@host-66-96-230-24.midco.net) (Changing host)
  7. # [00:10] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113asw@fedora/tw2113)
  8. # [00:11] * Joins: aroben_ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  9. # [00:12] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  10. # [00:24] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-ec9fe355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  11. # [00:25] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@ac242062.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
  12. # [00:33] * Joins: romeo_ (~romeo__@x1-6-00-10-a7-28-f3-47.k562.webspeed.dk)
  13. # [00:38] * Joins: jennb (~jennb@74.125.59.65)
  14. # [00:38] * Quits: ojan (~ojan@nat/google/x-zymrjktrzsvlgyvk) (Quit: ojan)
  15. # [00:44] <heycam> should new events fired at Window come with an onblah property? how about <body onblah="">?
  16. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Yes, personally.
  17. # [00:45] <Hixie> from a spec designer perspective or from an implementor perspective?
  18. # [00:45] <heycam> spec designer
  19. # [00:45] <Hixie> yes, ask me to add the relevant stuff to the HTML spec
  20. # [00:45] <Hixie> (whatcha adding?)
  21. # [00:46] <heycam> ok. if/when i have a spec to publish that has one, i'll ask.
  22. # [00:46] <heycam> looking at mozAnimationFrame
  23. # [00:46] <heycam> s/F/RequestF/
  24. # [00:46] <Hixie> ah, cool
  25. # [00:46] <heycam> or whatever it's called =P
  26. # [00:46] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  27. # [00:47] <heycam> is it the case that all events that fire at window currently have a <body onblah>?
  28. # [00:47] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@74.125.56.18)
  29. # [00:52] * Parts: tw2113 (~tw2113asw@fedora/tw2113) ("Leaving")
  30. # [00:54] * Quits: smorg (~quassel@174-30-207-66.mpls.qwest.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  31. # [00:55] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  32. # [00:56] <Hixie> heycam: no, but all the events that have a window.onblah that isn't on HTMLElement.onblah have a window.onblah, at least per the HTML spec
  33. # [00:56] <heycam> ok
  34. # [00:56] <Hixie> i.e. window.onfoo and body.onfoo are the same lists
  35. # [00:57] <Hixie> er, "have a body.onblah" in the second window.onblah above
  36. # [00:57] <heycam> ok that makes more sense :)
  37. # [00:58] <Hixie> (DOMContentLoaded is a simple counter-example to your earlier question)
  38. # [00:58] <Hixie> (or does that fire on the Document?)
  39. # [01:01] * Quits: TabAtkins (~tabatkins@216.239.45.19) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  40. # [01:01] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@74.125.56.18) (Quit: Leaving.)
  41. # [01:04] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@74.125.56.18)
  42. # [01:04] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@74.125.56.18) (Client Quit)
  43. # [01:07] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  44. # [01:07] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@74.125.56.18)
  45. # [01:10] * Quits: aroben_ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  46. # [01:14] * Quits: mven (~mven__@169.241.49.57) (Quit: Leaving)
  47. # [01:15] * Joins: mven (~mven__@169.241.49.57)
  48. # [01:19] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-58-221.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  49. # [01:23] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-134-27-91.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  50. # [01:25] * Joins: heycam` (~cam@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  51. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> By the way, for everyone here who told me about screen (Hixie? jgraham?): you rock.
  52. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> (or rather encouraged me to use it, it's not like I hadn't heard about it)
  53. # [01:28] * Quits: heycam (~cam@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  54. # [01:29] * heycam` is now known as heycam
  55. # [01:29] * Quits: kbrosnan (~kbrosnan@ip24-250-54-36.ri.ri.cox.net) (Quit: leaving)
  56. # [01:29] * Anti-X is now known as Anti-Zzz
  57. # [01:29] <Hixie> screen is indeed awesome
  58. # [01:30] * Joins: kbrosnan (~kbrosnan@ip24-250-54-36.ri.ri.cox.net)
  59. # [01:31] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  60. # [01:32] <heycam> if screen could fill my xterm scrollback buffers when i connect to it, rather than handle scrolling itself, i might use it more
  61. # [01:32] * Quits: Anti-Zzz (~duckmysic@77.16.194.149.tmi.telenormobil.no)
  62. # [01:32] <jcranmer> screen is why I have such high IRC uptime
  63. # [01:32] <Hixie> i run my shells under emacs, so emacs takes care of it
  64. # [01:34] <heycam> i want an irc proxy so i can stay connected, but use an irc client locally. and i want the proxy to feed my client scrollback content too when i connect to it. (up to a reasonable amount, say a day or two. but to include excerpts outside this time period if my nick is mentioned.)
  65. # [01:35] <Hixie> why do you want a local client?
  66. # [01:35] <heycam> i am happy with x-chat
  67. # [01:35] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-77-43.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  68. # [01:36] <heycam> although i am quite happy reading my mail in mutt over ssh, a text-based irc client doesn't do anything for me for some reason
  69. # [01:37] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
  70. # [01:38] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Quit: leaving)
  71. # [01:39] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc6-seac20-2-0-cust102.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  72. # [01:40] <Hixie> i don't really know how to tell the difference... irc is text
  73. # [01:42] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-huteipontmjxntbi) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  74. # [01:42] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-teudkhbxkyfxswph) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  75. # [01:43] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-wbykgtnlmifqltzv) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  76. # [01:43] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-efiyxgujamydfdfp)
  77. # [01:43] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-ywivccgepehuholj)
  78. # [01:44] <MikeSmith> heycam: welcome back
  79. # [01:44] * Joins: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  80. # [01:44] <AryehGregor> Text-based IRC clients annoy me too.
  81. # [01:44] <AryehGregor> I don't have a very good reason for this, though.
  82. # [01:45] <AryehGregor> I tried irssi but didn't feel it was worth it to learn how to use it.
  83. # [01:45] <AryehGregor> Oh, also I think it only let me use one window for all channels, which is unacceptable.
  84. # [01:45] <AryehGregor> I have a whole monitor with six channels tiled across it.
  85. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> also not clear to me what a text-based IRC client is
  86. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> means curses-based?
  87. # [01:47] <AryehGregor> One that runs in a terminal.
  88. # [01:47] <AryehGregor> Instead of a GUI app.
  89. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> ah
  90. # [01:47] <othermaciej> runs in a terminal, not GUI
  91. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> like irssi?
  92. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> ok
  93. # [01:47] <othermaciej> I am a long time GUI IRC client user
  94. # [01:47] <othermaciej> ever since X-Chat back in the day
  95. # [01:47] <othermaciej> now it's 100% Colloquy
  96. # [01:48] <othermaciej> even though Colloquy doesn't quite do everything I would like
  97. # [01:48] <othermaciej> it is usable and pretty to look at
  98. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> I recently switched from XChat to Colloquy and been very happy to have made the switch
  99. # [01:48] <othermaciej> also, WebKit
  100. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> yeah
  101. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> plus active developers
  102. # [01:48] <othermaciej> I feel compelled to demonstrate my patriotism
  103. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> and responsive developers
  104. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> on #colloquy
  105. # [01:49] <AryehGregor> I really dislike XChat.
  106. # [01:49] <MikeSmith> NoOneButMe++
  107. # [01:49] <MikeSmith> akempgen++
  108. # [01:49] <AryehGregor> Colloquy sounds great, too bad I use Linux.
  109. # [01:49] <MikeSmith> and of course xenon++++++++++
  110. # [01:49] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure that's a syntax error.
  111. # [01:50] <AryehGregor> Well, you have an even number of plus signs, so conceivably not, but it's certainly not recommended coding style.
  112. # [01:50] <othermaciej> X-Chat feels crufty compared to Colloquy now, though to be fair, lately I have only run it on Windows
  113. # [01:50] <othermaciej> dunno if it feels better in its native habitat
  114. # [01:51] <MikeSmith> because of public wifi in several places in Australia blocking port 6667 when I was traveling there, I recently set up screen+irssi and been pretty happy with that too
  115. # [01:51] <sideshow> yoo hoo
  116. # [01:51] <MikeSmith> that's me
  117. # [01:52] <MikeSmith> I find irssi with the nm.pl and wlstat.pl plugins to be fairly usable
  118. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> nm does proper aligning an coloring of nicks
  119. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> wlstat.pl gives you a human-readable channel list at the bottom of the screen
  120. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> and irssi handles unicode with no problems too
  121. # [01:54] <MikeSmith> anyway, the trend at http://arewefastyet.com/ is very cool
  122. # [01:54] <roc> I hate Colloquy. I have not been able to figure out how to collect alerted messages so I can read them even if they've escaped from scrollback
  123. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> roc: yeah, that's annoying
  124. # [01:55] <micheil> MikeSmith: there's also: http://arewefirstyet.com/
  125. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> micheil: thanks
  126. # [01:55] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3602:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7) (Quit: kennyluck)
  127. # [01:55] * Quits: sideshow (~MikeSmith@sideshowbarker.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  128. # [01:55] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  129. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> micheil: what's this measuring?
  130. # [01:56] <micheil> where the search terms for JavaScript rank on google
  131. # [01:56] <roc> it also has crazy bugs where it sometimes stops redrawing
  132. # [01:56] <micheil> as currently if you look for help on JS, the decent documentation is no where to be seen
  133. # [01:56] <roc> and sometimes there are visual artifacts
  134. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> roc: ping NoOneButMe or akempgen on #colloquy
  135. # [01:57] <MikeSmith> I think there's also a bug tracker for Colloquy but can't remember where
  136. # [01:57] <roc> and there's no support for user-configured hyperlinking
  137. # [01:57] <roc> yet
  138. # [01:57] <roc> I still use it
  139. # [01:57] <roc> obviously something is wrong with me
  140. # [01:58] <roc> anyway I'm switching to Windows soon, so it doesn't matter
  141. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> roc: http://colloquy.info?bugs or http://colloquy.info/project/report/1
  142. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> wow, 536 bugs
  143. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> 536 *active* bugs
  144. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> Colloquy needs some more developers…
  145. # [02:00] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-24-130-129-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: zzzzz)
  146. # [02:03] * Joins: chrx (~chris@CPE-61-9-185-15.static.vic.bigpond.net.au)
  147. # [02:04] <MikeSmith> http://arewefastyet.com/ makes me wonder whether that point on the Sunspider graph around 370ms or whatever is going to be where all the implementations will end up plateauing for a while
  148. # [02:04] <othermaciej> there is a lot of room for improvement in Colloquy
  149. # [02:04] <Hixie> MikeSmith: check out how many active bugs mozilla or webkit have ;-)
  150. # [02:05] <MikeSmith> Hixie: well, yeah
  151. # [02:05] <MikeSmith> would be more fair to compare how many bugs Chatzilla has, maybe
  152. # [02:06] <Hixie> number of open bugs is a function of the size of the QA base, not the engineering base
  153. # [02:06] <MikeSmith> about I meant maybe everybody will plateau (or whatever better word) there due to all having basically reached the same limits as far as what performance can be squeezed using the current techniques (that have come around in the last 2 years or whatever)
  154. # [02:07] <othermaciej> bug in / out rate are more interesting metrics than open bug level IMO
  155. # [02:07] <AryehGregor> Number of open bugs is a function of the size of the bug-reporter base.
  156. # [02:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I think in the case of Colloquy, it's the same base
  157. # [02:07] <MikeSmith> :)
  158. # [02:08] <roc> bugzilla.mozilla.org also has bugs for lots of non-Firefox things. Like every time a Mozilla employee requests hardware, that's a bug
  159. # [02:08] <roc> we also have bugs assigned to the legal department
  160. # [02:08] <MikeSmith> I don't know who maintains http://arewefastyet.com/ but it might be worthwhile to add Opera to it
  161. # [02:08] <MikeSmith> Carakan
  162. # [02:09] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, #3 on http://arewefastyet.com/faq.html
  163. # [02:09] <roc> MikeSmith: dvander@mozilla.com. However, they can't add Carakan easily because no standalone JS shell is available
  164. # [02:10] <MikeSmith> jgraham: ↑ gsnedders
  165. # [02:11] <roc> MikeSmith: I think we'll probably plateau on Sunspider because we don't think it's a great benchmark at this point, so once we've beaten everybody else the incentive to keep going is low
  166. # [02:11] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: thanks
  167. # [02:11] <MikeSmith> roc: I see
  168. # [02:11] * Joins: Craig` (~craig@host81-141-115-0.wlms-broadband.com)
  169. # [02:11] <MikeSmith> I know JS benchmarks are kind of touchy subject anyway
  170. # [02:12] <Craig`> hey guys, is it possible to check if an image is a part of another image? guessing i'd have to use canvas.
  171. # [02:12] <Hixie> from js?
  172. # [02:12] <Hixie> there's no direct api for it
  173. # [02:12] <Philip`> "part of"?
  174. # [02:12] <Hixie> you could as you say implement it manually using canvas to get the image data
  175. # [02:12] <MikeSmith> roc: so maybe I shouldn't have brought it up here… but anyway, it's great to see the progress that chart shows has been made over the last couple months
  176. # [02:13] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  177. # [02:13] <Craig`> Philip`, like one image is a piece of another
  178. # [02:13] <roc> touchy? we do touchy here :-)
  179. # [02:13] <Craig`> for example a picture of a human, the sub-image may just be the head, and i want to check if the whole body contains the head image inside
  180. # [02:13] <roc> I'm not sure what is touchy though
  181. # [02:13] <Philip`> Like you have a 10x10 image and a 20x20 image and want to see if any 10x10 region of the larger image is precisely identical to the smaller image?
  182. # [02:13] * Joins: smorg (~quassel@174-30-207-66.mpls.qwest.net)
  183. # [02:14] <heycam> MikeSmith, thanks!
  184. # [02:14] <MikeSmith> roc: I suspect there was probably a measurable difference just do the fact of heycam joining the mozilla team :) that's the kind of voodoo he seems to have
  185. # [02:14] <Craig`> Philip`, yes
  186. # [02:14] <heycam> (and yeah i meant curses based)
  187. # [02:15] * Joins: everton_ (~everton@KD118153063184.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp)
  188. # [02:15] <roc> he's stuck in Auckland so hasn't had much chance to influence the rest of Mozilla yet :-)
  189. # [02:15] <MikeSmith> heh
  190. # [02:15] <MikeSmith> lol
  191. # [02:15] <MikeSmith> heycam: you moved already?
  192. # [02:15] <MikeSmith> I really want to visit Auckland
  193. # [02:15] <MikeSmith> you dudes please find me a business reason to travel to Auckland for a visit
  194. # [02:16] <heycam> yeah just arrived a few weeks ago
  195. # [02:16] <heycam> come on over :)
  196. # [02:16] * Craig` is now known as [Craig]
  197. # [02:17] <Hixie> anyone got an animated GIF with frame numbers? a testcase animated gif?
  198. # [02:17] * Quits: everton (~everton@KD118153063184.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  199. # [02:17] * everton_ is now known as everton
  200. # [02:17] * [Craig] is now known as Craig
  201. # [02:18] * Craig is now known as [Craig]
  202. # [02:18] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-hjkwebmdwpvzrwpj)
  203. # [02:18] * Joins: nattokirai (~nattokira@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
  204. # [02:19] * heycam brb lunch
  205. # [02:20] * Quits: everton (~everton@KD118153063184.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp) (Quit: everton)
  206. # [02:22] <MikeSmith> Peter`: when I first read "The Chromium Team chose to enable their implementation of the FileSystem API by default. ", it seemed like it implied there was some other WebKit-based implementation of the FileSystem API
  207. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> maybe "The Chromium Team recently implemented the FileSystem API, and has now chosen to enable it by default in Chrome." or something would be better
  208. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> (or maybe it's just me)
  209. # [02:30] <MikeSmith> "There is a downside too, as the advocated API is asynchronous, it has a steep learning curve."
  210. # [02:30] <MikeSmith> in general, do asynchronous APIs have a really steeper learning curve than synchronous ones?
  211. # [02:31] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:2900:226:8ff:fe07:40c6)
  212. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> I mean, once you get past the initial step of learning how to program that way at all?
  213. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> hmm, I guess they do
  214. # [02:31] * Joins: homata__ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  215. # [02:32] <Philip`> [Craig]: Sounds like getImageData and a string search is the best you can do, then
  216. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> or at least, they are necessarily always more complicated a bit at least
  217. # [02:33] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  218. # [02:36] * Quits: estes (~aestes@17.246.18.9) (Quit: estes)
  219. # [02:36] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  220. # [02:37] * Joins: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  221. # [02:41] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-134-27-91.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Quit: davidwalsh)
  222. # [02:42] <AryehGregor> Mozilla people (roc, sicking): how long should I wait before poking people about checkin-needed not being checked in? And who do I poke? It's been five days. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=586763
  223. # [02:44] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  224. # [02:44] <timeless_mbp> AryehGregor: dao is a good person to poke
  225. # [02:45] <timeless_mbp> or gavin perhaps (not sure if he still does that)
  226. # [02:45] <timeless_mbp> dao landed something for me monday morning
  227. # [02:45] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.230) (Quit: othermaciej)
  228. # [02:45] <timeless_mbp> in theory i could do it, but in practice the tree scares me
  229. # [02:46] * Quits: homata__ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  230. # [02:46] <gavin> I can check it in tomorrow
  231. # [02:47] <AryehGregor> gavin, thanks.
  232. # [02:48] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  233. # [02:48] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:4aff:fe14:aad6) (Quit: ap)
  234. # [02:49] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-134-27-91.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  235. # [02:49] * Quits: agektmr1 (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  236. # [02:49] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  237. # [02:51] <sicking> AryehGregor: the best thing to do is ask around in #developers on irc.mozilla.org
  238. # [02:51] <sicking> oh, gavin already answered you
  239. # [02:55] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  240. # [02:55] <sicking> AryehGregor: i might give it a try tonight if i don't get home too late
  241. # [02:57] <AryehGregor> Okay, thanks.
  242. # [03:01] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Quit: leaving)
  243. # [03:06] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854])
  244. # [03:07] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-ywivccgepehuholj) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  245. # [03:13] * Joins: sideshow (~MikeSmith@sideshowbarker.net)
  246. # [03:17] * Joins: cooto (~Adium@pc-9-153-83-200.cm.vtr.net)
  247. # [03:25] * Joins: baba (~sallabanc@unaffiliated/cypha)
  248. # [03:30] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: zzzzz)
  249. # [03:31] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: Now time for the weather. Tiffany?)
  250. # [03:42] * Quits: [Craig] (~craig@host81-141-115-0.wlms-broadband.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  251. # [03:49] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-efiyxgujamydfdfp) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  252. # [03:50] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  253. # [03:56] * Joins: hamcore (rhythm@unaffiliated/hamcore)
  254. # [04:02] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.246.17.146)
  255. # [04:02] * Quits: Maxdamantus (~m@203-97-238-106.cable.telstraclear.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  256. # [04:11] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feaf:7f36) (Quit: weinig)
  257. # [04:14] * Joins: cooto1 (~Adium@pc-9-153-83-200.cm.vtr.net)
  258. # [04:14] * Quits: cooto (~Adium@pc-9-153-83-200.cm.vtr.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  259. # [04:14] * Parts: cooto1 (~Adium@pc-9-153-83-200.cm.vtr.net)
  260. # [04:14] * Quits: chrx (~chris@CPE-61-9-185-15.static.vic.bigpond.net.au) (Quit: chrx)
  261. # [04:15] * Joins: Maxdamantus (~m@203-97-238-106.cable.telstraclear.net)
  262. # [04:17] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@rrcs-76-79-114-214.west.biz.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  263. # [04:21] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-149-173-56.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: micheil)
  264. # [04:35] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-24-130-56-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  265. # [04:45] * heycam wonders why @html5douche tweeted non-doucheily
  266. # [04:53] <wirepair> ha, this is way more amusing than i thought it would be
  267. # [04:54] <wirepair> damn you heycam for ruining my concentration ;)
  268. # [04:55] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@99-59-125-34.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
  269. # [05:17] <MikeSmith> heycam: I think it's because he forgot what account he was tweeting from…
  270. # [05:18] <heycam> MikeSmith, likely!
  271. # [05:19] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0)
  272. # [05:20] <MikeSmith> cool to see this:
  273. # [05:20] <MikeSmith> http://dougt.org/wordpress/2010/10/desktop-notifications-in-fennec/
  274. # [05:20] <MikeSmith> annevk should be happy
  275. # [05:20] <MikeSmith> heycam: did you hear that annevk is a WG chair now?
  276. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> of the Web Notification WG
  277. # [05:21] <heycam> MikeSmith, I did!
  278. # [05:21] <heycam> all grown up
  279. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> heh
  280. # [05:21] <heycam> :)
  281. # [05:22] * Quits: hamcore (rhythm@unaffiliated/hamcore)
  282. # [05:25] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@17.244.14.254) (Quit: -)
  283. # [05:33] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0) (Quit: mdelaney)
  284. # [05:34] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  285. # [05:36] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  286. # [05:38] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@124-149-173-56.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  287. # [05:39] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-24-130-56-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
  288. # [05:40] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@67.218.106.248)
  289. # [05:56] * Joins: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  290. # [06:03] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@67.218.106.248) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  291. # [06:04] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@67.218.106.248)
  292. # [06:05] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  293. # [06:08] * Quits: romeo_ (~romeo__@x1-6-00-10-a7-28-f3-47.k562.webspeed.dk) (Quit: Leaving)
  294. # [06:13] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:2900:226:8ff:fe07:40c6) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  295. # [06:15] * Quits: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: roc)
  296. # [06:16] * Joins: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  297. # [06:17] * Quits: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Read error: No route to host)
  298. # [06:17] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Quit: leaving)
  299. # [06:18] * Quits: heycam (~cam@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: bye)
  300. # [06:22] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  301. # [06:25] * Joins: murz (~mmurraywa@174-21-111-3.tukw.qwest.net)
  302. # [06:28] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-hjkwebmdwpvzrwpj) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.10/20100920140826])
  303. # [06:34] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-24-130-56-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  304. # [06:36] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  305. # [06:38] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@67.218.106.248) (Quit: mdelaney)
  306. # [06:39] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  307. # [06:39] * Quits: variable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  308. # [06:39] * Joins: variable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable)
  309. # [06:46] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-24-130-56-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
  310. # [06:50] * Joins: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  311. # [06:58] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: zzzzz)
  312. # [07:03] * Quits: estes (~aestes@17.246.17.146) (Quit: estes)
  313. # [07:07] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-134-27-91.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Quit: Reading http://davidwalsh.name)
  314. # [07:18] * Joins: estes (~aestes@76.220.34.58)
  315. # [07:22] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@c-69-181-26-199.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  316. # [07:25] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@74.125.56.18) (Quit: Leaving.)
  317. # [07:27] * Joins: Ankheg (~Miranda@fs91-201-3-30.dubna-net.ru)
  318. # [07:27] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-24-130-56-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  319. # [07:32] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@c-69-181-26-199.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: mdelaney)
  320. # [07:33] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-47-206.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  321. # [07:36] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-77-43.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  322. # [07:37] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  323. # [07:43] * Joins: rimantas (~rimliu@lan-84-240-20-219.vln.skynet.lt)
  324. # [07:44] * Quits: foolip_ (~philip@83.218.67.122) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  325. # [07:45] * Joins: foolip_ (~philip@83.218.67.122)
  326. # [07:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: FYI: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=605373
  327. # [07:55] <hsivonen> scoping object strikes again :-(
  328. # [07:56] <Hixie> yeah, unfortunately IE's behaviour is basically a non-starter on that one
  329. # [07:56] <Hixie> (they just drop the <object> from the DOM entirely)
  330. # [07:56] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  331. # [07:56] <Hixie> we'll always have regressions
  332. # [07:57] <Hixie> or pages that don't parse ideally
  333. # [07:57] <Hixie> since there are pages depending on different contradictory behaviours
  334. # [07:57] <Hixie> at some point we just have to draw a line and accept it
  335. # [07:57] <Hixie> (dunno which side of the line this one is on)
  336. # [08:05] * Quits: gavin__ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  337. # [08:06] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-24-130-56-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
  338. # [08:06] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  339. # [08:11] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-24-130-56-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  340. # [08:11] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@ip-213-49-113-159.dsl.scarlet.be)
  341. # [08:24] <shepazu> anyone have an opinion on whether it's better to use multiple <aside>s for different bits of a sidebar, such as a blogroll and an archive list, or to use a single <aside> with multiple child <section>s?
  342. # [08:28] * Disconnected
  343. # [08:29] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  344. # [08:29] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  345. # [08:29] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  346. # [08:29] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  347. # [08:32] <Hixie> shepazu: both are fine
  348. # [08:33] <Hixie> shepazu: really it depends whether stylistically it would be fine for one part to be elsewhere or whether the whole thing should always stick together
  349. # [08:36] * Parts: Tux (~tux@77.247.156.227)
  350. # [08:37] <shepazu> Hixie: thanks, I thought that might be the answer... now I have to decide how related the sections are... doing some tweaking of http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/
  351. # [08:38] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  352. # [08:40] <shepazu> might be good to have separate asides, so the different sections could be reordered, put on different sides of the page, etc... anyway, good to know that both are reasonable
  353. # [08:40] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  354. # [08:42] * Joins: reni__home (~reni@sedkit.inf.u-szeged.hu)
  355. # [08:47] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  356. # [08:47] * Quits: Peter` (~peter@170-116.citynet.ftth.internl.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  357. # [08:48] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@170-116.citynet.ftth.internl.net)
  358. # [08:48] <Peter`> MikeSmith: it's mainly the idea of asynchronous programming which is hard for people to understand
  359. # [08:48] * Joins: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  360. # [08:58] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  361. # [08:58] * Joins: roc (~roc@121.98.230.221)
  362. # [09:03] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@dhcp26.tom.sfc.keio.ac.jp)
  363. # [09:06] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-196-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  364. # [09:06] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-24-130-56-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
  365. # [09:11] * Joins: Anti-X (~duckmysic@93.179.5.58)
  366. # [09:16] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  367. # [09:16] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  368. # [09:20] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  369. # [09:25] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl)
  370. # [09:28] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  371. # [09:31] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-60-18.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  372. # [09:34] <jgraham> Hixie: I'm pretty sure we has at least a couple of sites break due to the <object> thing. I meant to look up the sites but didn't
  373. # [09:37] <Hixie> given the wacked out things IE does with <object> i would expect it to be one of less successful areas
  374. # [09:39] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YGKMMMXLV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  375. # [09:44] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~henrik@80.199.116.190.static.peytz.dk)
  376. # [09:48] <jgraham> Right, but that doesn't mean that we need to gratuitously break sites if it is avoidable
  377. # [09:49] <jgraham> Since no one else but IE used the IE behaviour and these breakages are regressions
  378. # [09:50] * Quits: abarth (~abarth@c-67-169-68-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: abarth)
  379. # [09:51] <hsivonen> jgraham: at this point, reading the code of the old WebKit tree builder in order to figure out what exactly it did would be nice
  380. # [09:52] <hsivonen> no progress on https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46936
  381. # [09:52] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.138.210)
  382. # [10:03] <hsivonen> aaaargh. interaction with legacy stuff strikes again: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=604660
  383. # [10:04] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  384. # [10:06] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  385. # [10:06] * Quits: kuya (~d1223m@93-97-190-130.zone5.bethere.co.uk) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  386. # [10:07] <nessy> amongst some open video software developers we are developing a proposal for HTTP adaptive streaming - mostly focused on Ogg and WebM with some specifications for extending HTML5 APIs - I wonder if it would be appropriate to chuck this into the WHATWG wiki in preparation for discussions on the mailing list?
  387. # [10:07] <Hixie> jgraham: oh i'm not saying we shouldn't fix it if there's a good fix that does more good than harm
  388. # [10:07] <Hixie> jgraham: just that i'm not surprised to see that kind of problem come up
  389. # [10:11] * Joins: akamike (~akamike@94-193-106-14.zone7.bethere.co.uk)
  390. # [10:12] * Joins: kmq (~kmq@85.159.13.90)
  391. # [10:13] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  392. # [10:14] <annevk> nessy, go ahead
  393. # [10:14] <nessy> annevk: cool, ta
  394. # [10:15] <annevk> WHATWG wiki is open for most everything, and definitely everything that is related to web standards
  395. # [10:18] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  396. # [10:22] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-60-18.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  397. # [10:25] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  398. # [10:25] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  399. # [10:28] * Joins: Phae (~Phae@chimera.macmillan.com)
  400. # [10:37] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
  401. # [10:42] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-ec9fe355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  402. # [10:46] <annevk> ArrayBuffer exposes endianness?
  403. # [10:46] <annevk> oh well
  404. # [10:52] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  405. # [10:53] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  406. # [10:55] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@guest.opera.com)
  407. # [10:56] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool86.cs.man.ac.uk)
  408. # [11:03] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  409. # [11:09] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@99-59-125-34.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  410. # [11:15] * Quits: estes (~aestes@76.220.34.58) (Quit: estes)
  411. # [11:20] <hsivonen> I wish the script running section of the spec had reminded me that XSLT-inserted scripts need to behave like parser-inserted scripts
  412. # [11:21] <jgraham> Oh man, I hadn't even considered the possibility of xslt inserted scripts
  413. # [11:25] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  414. # [11:27] <jgraham> Can you make xslt work with text/html content during parsing? I can't think of an easy way but there could be something I missed
  415. # [11:27] * Quits: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: nimbupani)
  416. # [11:28] <hsivonen> jgraham: do you mean applying XSLT to text/html during parsing?
  417. # [11:29] <jgraham> Yes
  418. # [11:29] <hsivonen> jgraham: not with anything equivalent to <?xml-stylesheet, no
  419. # [11:30] <hsivonen> jgraham: I have no idea what would happen if you passed a document that's still being parsed to the XSLT JS API
  420. # [11:30] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  421. # [11:30] <jgraham> That was more what I was wondering about
  422. # [11:32] <hsivonen> I believe XSLT-created scripts in the JS API case should be prevented from executing like innerHTML-created scripts
  423. # [11:35] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  424. # [11:39] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@220.109.219.244)
  425. # [11:48] <hsivonen> ...or maybe not
  426. # [11:49] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  427. # [11:50] <hsivonen> happy happy time ahead with scripts inserted via XSLTProcessor and createContextualFragment
  428. # [11:52] * Joins: koz_ (~jameskozi@nat/google/x-uymxesvhcmphhmwl)
  429. # [11:52] * Joins: meledin_ (~vladi@f2.c7.5d45.static.theplanet.com)
  430. # [11:52] * Joins: Kuruma___ (~Kuruman@p7207-ipngn1301marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  431. # [11:52] * Joins: TabAtkin1_ (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-jtevgddwtodaszqx)
  432. # [11:52] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (*.net *.split)
  433. # [11:52] * Quits: meledin (~vladi@f2.c7.5d45.static.theplanet.com) (*.net *.split)
  434. # [11:52] * Quits: Hixie (ianh@trivini.no) (*.net *.split)
  435. # [11:52] * Quits: connrs (~paul@host86-136-132-1.range86-136.btcentralplus.com) (*.net *.split)
  436. # [11:52] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (*.net *.split)
  437. # [11:52] * Quits: koz (~jameskozi@74.125.56.17) (*.net *.split)
  438. # [11:52] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-rbpftbymmdhtmrch) (*.net *.split)
  439. # [11:52] * Quits: Kuruma__ (~Kuruman@p7207-ipngn1301marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (*.net *.split)
  440. # [11:52] * Quits: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com) (*.net *.split)
  441. # [11:52] * koz_ is now known as koz
  442. # [11:52] * Joins: connrs (~paul@host86-136-132-1.range86-136.btcentralplus.com)
  443. # [11:52] * Joins: Hixie (ianh@trivini.no)
  444. # [11:52] * Joins: temp02 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  445. # [11:52] * Quits: temp02 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Excess Flood)
  446. # [11:53] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  447. # [11:54] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  448. # [11:56] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool86.cs.man.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  449. # [11:57] * Quits: Peter` (~peter@170-116.citynet.ftth.internl.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  450. # [11:58] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@guest.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  451. # [11:58] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YGKMMMXLV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  452. # [12:01] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  453. # [12:15] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@170-116.citynet.ftth.internl.net)
  454. # [12:16] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-60-18.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  455. # [12:19] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@dhcp26.tom.sfc.keio.ac.jp) (Quit: kennyluck)
  456. # [12:30] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  457. # [12:37] * Joins: hamcore (rhythm@unaffiliated/hamcore)
  458. # [12:40] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool86.cs.man.ac.uk)
  459. # [12:44] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-60-18.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  460. # [12:45] * Quits: timeless_mbp (~timeless@a88-115-8-36.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
  461. # [12:49] * Quits: Anti-X (~duckmysic@93.179.5.58) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  462. # [12:53] * Quits: pablof (~palbo@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  463. # [12:54] * Joins: Anti-X (~duckmysic@93.179.9.109)
  464. # [12:55] * Joins: pablof (~palbo@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  465. # [13:11] * Joins: agektmr1 (~Adium@220.109.219.245)
  466. # [13:11] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@220.109.219.244) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  467. # [13:11] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  468. # [13:15] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3602:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7)
  469. # [13:15] * Quits: agektmr1 (~Adium@220.109.219.245) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  470. # [13:26] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  471. # [13:33] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-151-113.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  472. # [13:37] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  473. # [13:37] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-47-206.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  474. # [13:37] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  475. # [13:37] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  476. # [13:39] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Client Quit)
  477. # [13:40] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  478. # [13:41] <hsivonen> stuff I've learned today: an XSLT transform fails to compile in Gecko if it doesn't have the version="1.0" attribute
  479. # [13:47] * Quits: foolip_ (~philip@83.218.67.122) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  480. # [13:49] * Quits: foolip (~philip@83.218.67.122) (Remote host closed the connection)
  481. # [13:50] <hsivonen> why does Chrome throw a WRONG_DOCUMENT_ERR when moving a node from an XSLT result doc to an HTML page?
  482. # [13:51] <jgraham> Isn't that a case where DOM Core literalism would make you use adoptNode?
  483. # [13:52] <annevk> hsivonen, WebKit has not yet removed throwing WRONG_DOCUMENT_ERR for certain scenarios
  484. # [13:52] <hsivonen> jgraham: yeah
  485. # [13:52] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
  486. # [13:53] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/scripts/XSLTProcessor-transformToDocument.html
  487. # [13:53] <hsivonen> Opera runs the script once it's adopted
  488. # [13:53] <hsivonen> Gecko trunk and Chrome don't run it
  489. # [13:53] <hsivonen> yay for interop
  490. # [13:57] * jgraham doesn't have any issues with decomplexifying XSLT support if possible
  491. # [13:58] <annevk> hsivonen, what hotel are you staying at for TPAC?
  492. # [13:58] <hsivonen> Hotel de congres
  493. # [13:59] <hsivonen> annevk: the one that a while ago still had the 100% .swf site
  494. # [13:59] * Parts: hamcore (rhythm@unaffiliated/hamcore)
  495. # [14:00] <annevk> http://www.hoteldescongres.com/
  496. # [14:00] <annevk> ?
  497. # [14:00] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  498. # [14:00] <annevk> seems there's less Flash now
  499. # [14:00] <hsivonen> annevk: yes and yes
  500. # [14:01] <annevk> number of nights... hmm
  501. # [14:01] <annevk> like I know
  502. # [14:03] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/scripts/XSLTProcessor-transformToFragment.html
  503. # [14:03] <hsivonen> script runs in Firefox and Opera
  504. # [14:03] <hsivonen> not in WebKit
  505. # [14:06] <annevk> I'm staying there too now
  506. # [14:06] <annevk> thanks
  507. # [14:11] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  508. # [14:16] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  509. # [14:20] <hsivonen> maybe I should test DOMParser-created scripts next...
  510. # [14:21] <hsivonen> and maybe XHR-created scripts
  511. # [14:28] <hsivonen> annevk: Opera disagrees with Firefox and WebKit on http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/scripts/xhr.html
  512. # [14:30] <hsivonen> hmm. IE9 can't adopt a node from XHR into a displayed doc
  513. # [14:30] <hsivonen> boo
  514. # [14:31] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-222-194.cnt.nerim.net)
  515. # [14:32] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  516. # [14:33] <hsivonen> Gecko disagrees with WebKit and Opera: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/scripts/xhr-importNode.html
  517. # [14:35] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108)
  518. # [14:35] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@ip-213-49-113-159.dsl.scarlet.be) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  519. # [14:39] * Joins: davidb__ (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com)
  520. # [14:42] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@ip-213-49-112-28.dsl.scarlet.be)
  521. # [14:45] * Quits: Anti-X (~duckmysic@93.179.9.109) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  522. # [14:50] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool86.cs.man.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  523. # [14:50] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  524. # [14:53] * Joins: plainhao (~plainhao@mail.xbiotica.com)
  525. # [14:58] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
  526. # [15:08] * Quits: rimantas (~rimliu@lan-84-240-20-219.vln.skynet.lt) (Quit: Leaving)
  527. # [15:09] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.107)
  528. # [15:10] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.153.2) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  529. # [15:11] * Quits: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.153.2) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  530. # [15:15] <karlcow> The Design of HTML5 - http://adactio.com/articles/1704
  531. # [15:15] <karlcow> huge blog post
  532. # [15:17] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@64.119.153.2)
  533. # [15:17] <annevk> it's a transcription
  534. # [15:19] <karlcow> annevk: yep of the conference Fronteers 2010
  535. # [15:31] * mamund_ is now known as mamund
  536. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> annevk: in this tweet: http://twitter.com/#!/DennisLaumen/status/27818124542
  537. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> the "ik kon me geen directe pimp herinneren" part
  538. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> how would you translate that/
  539. # [15:33] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.141.14) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  540. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> "I can't recall a direct pimp"?
  541. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> "I can't recall pimping directly"?
  542. # [15:33] * Quits: kmq (~kmq@85.159.13.90) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  543. # [15:34] <annevk> I do not remember direct pimping
  544. # [15:34] <annevk> so yeah, something like that
  545. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> ok
  546. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> thanks
  547. # [15:39] * Quits: hjjaa (~ghe@132.150.124.56)
  548. # [15:40] * Joins: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.26.11)
  549. # [15:47] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  550. # [15:48] * Joins: Anti-X (~duckmysic@c0B7EBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no)
  551. # [15:49] <hsivonen> annevk: I recall someone (you?) tweeting from fronteers that authors weren't aware that vendor-prefixed CSS properties can be discontinued at any time
  552. # [15:49] <hsivonen> annevk: do I recall correctly? are authors really thinking that the vendor-prefixed stuff is stable?
  553. # [15:50] <jgraham> I thought they were unaware that it was "invalid"
  554. # [15:50] <jgraham> s/"/*/
  555. # [15:51] <hsivonen> oh
  556. # [15:56] * Quits: Ankheg (~Miranda@fs91-201-3-30.dubna-net.ru) (Quit: Ankheg)
  557. # [15:57] <annevk> some think it is valid
  558. # [15:57] <annevk> I am not sure whether they think it is stable
  559. # [15:57] * Joins: eric_carlson (~ericc@17.203.15.26)
  560. # [16:01] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. thanks
  561. # [16:01] <hsivonen> does IE9 use the new JS engine for the old document modes?
  562. # [16:01] <hsivonen> and the new Direct2D graphics layer?
  563. # [16:02] * Joins: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.153.2)
  564. # [16:03] <hsivonen> Opera disagrees with Gecko, WebKit and IE9 beta 1 on http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/scripts/DOMParser.html
  565. # [16:10] <hsivonen> the weirdest thing I've learned today:
  566. # [16:10] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/scripts/innerHTML-in-doc-defer-plus-cruft.html
  567. # [16:10] <hsivonen> innerHTML script runs in IE
  568. # [16:10] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/scripts/innerHTML-in-doc-defer.html
  569. # [16:10] <hsivonen> innerHTML script doesn't run in IE
  570. # [16:11] <hsivonen> MSDN said defer would run
  571. # [16:11] <hsivonen> first I figured that MSDN was wrong
  572. # [16:11] <hsivonen> then I learned you need to have something in addition to the script element in the innerHTML setter argument for the script to run
  573. # [16:12] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-134-27-91.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  574. # [16:14] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~henrik@80.199.116.190.static.peytz.dk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  575. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: during my recent language messings-around in twitter, I was kind of a surprised to realize there doesn't seem to be any direct article or indirect article in Finnish
  576. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> is that the case?
  577. # [16:17] <annevk> oh
  578. # [16:17] <annevk> are we gonna publish today?
  579. # [16:17] <annevk> do I need to do anything?
  580. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> yeah
  581. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> change date to Oct 19
  582. # [16:17] <annevk> I guess I haven't merged recent changes
  583. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> please do now :)
  584. # [16:18] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do you mean like "the" or "a"/"an"?
  585. # [16:18] <MikeSmith> yeah
  586. # [16:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ↑
  587. # [16:18] <annevk> I guess I have some more time
  588. # [16:18] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: there is none
  589. # [16:18] <hsivonen> (aren't those definite and indefinite, not direct and indirect?)
  590. # [16:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: oops, yeah
  591. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> I means definite/indefinite
  592. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> annevk: please do get it done as soon as you can
  593. # [16:19] * Quits: Anti-X (~duckmysic@c0B7EBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  594. # [16:19] <annevk> can you give me 45min?
  595. # [16:19] <hsivonen> articles are kinda useless, so we don't have those
  596. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, sure
  597. # [16:20] <hsivonen> definite vs. indefinite information is baked into the case in some cases
  598. # [16:20] <hsivonen> oops. pun unintended
  599. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, Japanese and most asian languages don't have them either
  600. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> heh
  601. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: but Japanese speakers and other Asian non-native English learners seem to have a lot of trouble using "a" and "the" correctly in English
  602. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> it's pretty hard
  603. # [16:21] <hsivonen> I don't find it conceptually that hard
  604. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> but it seems like FInnish speakers don't have that problem nearly as much
  605. # [16:21] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-196-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  606. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> I think there are some instances where it's hard
  607. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> though I can't think of particulars right now
  608. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> I know there are some where I had a difficult time explaining why "a" is needed instead of "the"
  609. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> or vice versa
  610. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: also, Google Translate Finnish<->English seems to be relatively poor quality
  611. # [16:25] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah. I use source language to English when I use Google Translate
  612. # [16:25] <hsivonen> (and Google would use English as an intermediate language anyway)
  613. # [16:25] <MikeSmith> machine translation of Japanese->English is also poor quality
  614. # [16:26] * Quits: jer|afk (~jernoble@17.203.14.197) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  615. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> the reason for it isn't because of Google Translate in particular
  616. # [16:26] * Joins: jer|afk (~jernoble@17.203.14.197)
  617. # [16:26] * Joins: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com)
  618. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> it's just very difficult to do decent Japanese->English machine translation
  619. # [16:26] * Quits: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com) (Excess Flood)
  620. # [16:26] <hsivonen> human translation quality from English to Finnish varies rather strikingly
  621. # [16:26] * Joins: Anti-X (~duckmysic@cA27DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no)
  622. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> interesting
  623. # [16:27] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@17.203.15.26) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  624. # [16:27] * Quits: onar (~onar@2620:0:1b00:16f2:21f:5bff:fe3e:944) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  625. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> is there a lot that needs to be inferred when doing it?
  626. # [16:27] <hsivonen> there are some books (typically non-fiction) where one can tell what the English expressions were
  627. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> ah
  628. # [16:27] * Joins: onar (~onar@2620:0:1b00:16f2:21f:5bff:fe3e:944)
  629. # [16:27] <hsivonen> that is, the result is Finnish, but no one would write Finnish like that from scratch
  630. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> I see
  631. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> I was thinking more of the other way around
  632. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> from Finnish to English
  633. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> in comparison, one big problem with translating Japanese to English is that the subject can be omitted from a sentences
  634. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> *from sentences
  635. # [16:29] * Joins: eric_carlson (~ericc@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feb1:5d30)
  636. # [16:29] <MikeSmith> that is, the sentences in the Japanese source may lack subjects
  637. # [16:29] <hsivonen> and the translator has to make a guess?
  638. # [16:29] <MikeSmith> the only way to know what the subject is is to read the previous sentence or parargraph
  639. # [16:29] <MikeSmith> human translator does not need to guess
  640. # [16:29] <hsivonen> ah
  641. # [16:29] <MikeSmith> it's almost always unambiguous to humans
  642. # [16:30] <MikeSmith> but harder to teach a machine
  643. # [16:30] <MikeSmith> though not impossible of course
  644. # [16:30] <MikeSmith> anyway, I was speculating that there might be some similar reasons why going from Finnish to English with machine translation might be more difficult than most
  645. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> I mean, I've been surprised to find that Google Translate does a decent job with some languages that I had naively assumed it might have a lot of difficulty with
  646. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> Hebrew, for example
  647. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> and Arabic
  648. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> and Hindi
  649. # [16:32] * Quits: kbrosnan (~kbrosnan@ip24-250-54-36.ri.ri.cox.net) (Quit: leaving)
  650. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> it consistently seems to do better with all those than it does with Finnish
  651. # [16:32] <hsivonen> I think the top two things that require inference when translating from Finnish to English are using the future tense and guessing he vs. she
  652. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> OK
  653. # [16:33] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool86.cs.man.ac.uk)
  654. # [16:34] <hsivonen> I mean for a machine. For a human, the future vs. present information is there but not in the verbs
  655. # [16:35] * Joins: kbrosnan (~kbrosnan@ip24-250-54-36.ri.ri.cox.net)
  656. # [16:36] * Quits: kbrosnan (~kbrosnan@ip24-250-54-36.ri.ri.cox.net) (Client Quit)
  657. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I see
  658. # [16:38] <hsivonen> hmm. So now the spec has a "Noah ark clause" in addition to the "adoption agency algorithm"
  659. # [16:38] <hsivonen> *Noah's
  660. # [16:39] <MikeSmith> yeah, interesting choice of name there
  661. # [16:43] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  662. # [16:44] * Quits: Anti-X (~duckmysic@cA27DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  663. # [16:44] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-134-27-91.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Quit: Reading http://davidwalsh.name)
  664. # [16:45] <annevk> there's a restaurant here in Oslo called Noah's Ark
  665. # [16:45] <annevk> they've got nice burgers
  666. # [16:45] <hsivonen> annevk: do they come in pairs?
  667. # [16:46] <annevk> unfortunately not :)
  668. # [16:48] <annevk> so only <video> has an audio attribute
  669. # [16:48] <annevk> not <audio>
  670. # [16:48] <annevk> hmm
  671. # [16:50] * Joins: Anti-X (~duckmysic@c6D7CBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no)
  672. # [16:51] <annevk> MikeSmith, http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/ has been updated
  673. # [16:51] <annevk> fwiw, http://www.w3.org/TR/progress-events/ has been updated too
  674. # [16:53] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-134-27-91.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  675. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> annevk: thanks
  676. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw, you saw that Doug Turner had implemented support for the Web Notifications spec in Fennec?
  677. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> I don't recall if he mentioned it on the list
  678. # [16:55] <annevk> I read a post last Friday I believe
  679. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> yeah
  680. # [16:55] <annevk> and I saw you mentioning it again somewhere in the logs :)
  681. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> heh
  682. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> OK
  683. # [16:57] * Quits: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.153.2) (Quit: less catch, more try)
  684. # [16:58] <karlcow> I wonder if Japanese <-> Finish works well?
  685. # [16:59] * Joins: kbrosnan (~kbrosnan@ip24-250-54-36.ri.ri.cox.net)
  686. # [17:00] <karlcow> when I see romaji and finish's spelling, I sometimes wonder if there are not the same language. It is very strange.
  687. # [17:00] * Quits: baba (~sallabanc@unaffiliated/cypha) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  688. # [17:01] <hsivonen> karlcow: I expect the market isn't big enough for anyone to bother
  689. # [17:01] <karlcow> hsivonen: you mean for the translation engine?
  690. # [17:01] <hsivonen> karlcow: right
  691. # [17:02] <hsivonen> (Google translates Japanese to English to Finnish when asking it to translate from Japanese to Finnish)
  692. # [17:03] <karlcow> For the market, for sure. :) But I was more interested by the work of art :)
  693. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: what's the current conclusion about which language family (families) Finnish belongs to?
  694. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> for comparison, I think there is currently not actually a real consensus on where Japanese developed from
  695. # [17:03] <karlcow> http://educationjapan.org/jguide/origins.html
  696. # [17:04] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I believe the English name is Fenno-Ugric
  697. # [17:04] <MikeSmith> OK
  698. # [17:04] <karlcow> Japanese is often regarded as a possible member of the Altaic group, but the relationship is generally considered tentative or unproven.
  699. # [17:04] * hsivonen has to go
  700. # [17:04] <karlcow> "Altaic includes three main subfamilies (Turkic, Mongolian and Manchu-Tungus), while Uralic includes the Finn-Ugric languages (Hungarian, Finnish, Estonian, etc.) and the Samoyedic tongues (spoken in parts of Russia). "
  701. # [17:05] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@99-59-125-34.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
  702. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> karlcow: my understanding is that it's beens a long time since any serious researchers actually still classified Japanese in the Altaic group
  703. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> but I could be wrong
  704. # [17:06] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Disconnected...)
  705. # [17:06] <karlcow> MikeSmith: I'm not qualified at all. Just reading what I find. :)
  706. # [17:06] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~henrik@109.56.93.119)
  707. # [17:07] <karlcow> "Vowel harmony is common in Altaic and Uralic languages, such as Turkish and Finnish, and later I will show how it has been used to support theories relating Japanese to these groups." -- http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/ling450ch/reports/japanese.htm
  708. # [17:07] <karlcow> "Japanese is not conclusively linked to any other language or family of languages. It has remained a mystery despite all these centuries of research, and continues to prod the people who speak it to seek out their identity."
  709. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> karlcow: I think it is becoming less of a mystery recently
  710. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> research seems to be leaning towards this:
  711. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo_language
  712. # [17:08] * karlcow is reading
  713. # [17:09] * karlcow wants a time machine.
  714. # [17:09] <karlcow> and poneys
  715. # [17:12] <karlcow> ooooh and for the catastrophists, end of the world theorists or just poets ;) there is a big giant ass ring on the sun :)
  716. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> so from reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_languages I see that Hungarian and Estonian are among the languages that Finnish is related to
  717. # [17:13] * Quits: Anti-X (~duckmysic@c6D7CBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  718. # [17:14] <karlcow> http://www.nasa.gov/topics/solarsystem/sunearthsystem/main/News101610-3flares.html
  719. # [17:15] <karlcow> MikeSmith: migration of people? waves of invasion? viral language? :)
  720. # [17:15] * Joins: romeo_ (~romeo__@x1-6-00-10-a7-28-f3-47.k562.webspeed.dk)
  721. # [17:16] <Workshiva> Terrible how much information has been lost
  722. # [17:17] <karlcow> the ring is more visible on this image http://spacefellowship.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/489332main_euvfilament-20101016.jpg
  723. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> karlcow: cool
  724. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> Workshiva: about language history?
  725. # [17:19] * smorg is now known as ormaaj
  726. # [17:19] * Joins: Anti-X (~duckmysic@77.17.17.130.tmi.telenormobil.no)
  727. # [17:19] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-60-18.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  728. # [17:22] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feb1:5d30) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  729. # [17:22] * Joins: eric_carlson (~ericc@17.246.19.210)
  730. # [17:23] * ormaaj is now known as smorg
  731. # [17:24] <Workshiva> MikeSmith: History in general
  732. # [17:27] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-134-27-91.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Quit: Reading http://davidwalsh.name)
  733. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> some history can at least be reconstructed from tangible artifacts
  734. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> but for extinct languages that without a written record, the info really is lost forever
  735. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> I mean, there is always the possibility of archaeologists uncovering artifacts that we can recover history from about a lot of things
  736. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> but not about spoken language
  737. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> unrecorded spoken language
  738. # [17:30] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~henrik@109.56.93.119) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  739. # [17:32] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108) (Quit: miketaylr)
  740. # [17:36] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  741. # [17:36] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  742. # [17:37] <Workshiva> But even written history is very sparse compared to the total of reality
  743. # [17:37] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~henrik@109.56.35.146)
  744. # [17:37] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~henrik@109.56.35.146) (Remote host closed the connection)
  745. # [17:39] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1191:598:8b1f:6f9c:549c)
  746. # [17:39] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1191:598:8b1f:6f9c:549c) (Changing host)
  747. # [17:39] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  748. # [17:44] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl) (Quit: davidhund)
  749. # [17:49] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  750. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> I have noticed lately that Chrome on OSX seems to be doing caching more aggressively than other browsers
  751. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> or maybe it's just me
  752. # [17:52] * Quits: murz (~mmurraywa@174-21-111-3.tukw.qwest.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  753. # [17:53] <MikeSmith> remote resources but also caching file:// resources and not loading them from disk after I've made changes to them, but instead keeping right on serving them from cache
  754. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> seems like file:// resources should arguably never get cached to begin with
  755. # [17:56] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool86.cs.man.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  756. # [17:56] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: annevk)
  757. # [17:56] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-cpgzmdhtdbqllgwo)
  758. # [17:56] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool86.cs.man.ac.uk)
  759. # [17:59] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feaf:7f36)
  760. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> I wish there were a replacement word in English for "now"
  761. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> so that I don't mistakenly type "not" when I meant to type "now"
  762. # [17:59] * Joins: timeless_mbp (~timeless@192.100.124.156)
  763. # [18:00] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
  764. # [18:00] <Philip`> MikeSmith: "presently"?
  765. # [18:00] <karlcow> too long?
  766. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> yeah
  767. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> Philip`: e.g., "http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html5-diff-20101019/ is not ready for publication"
  768. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html5-diff-20101019/ is presently ready for publication
  769. # [18:02] <karlcow> MikeSmith: you can type "ima" and have an automatic script to translate but that will severely damage your brain and you end by saying "ima" orally to English speakers :)
  770. # [18:02] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@c-69-181-26-199.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  771. # [18:02] <jgraham> Why not just say "is ready for publication"
  772. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> and yeah, I know I could omit "now" and it would still make sense
  773. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I knew you would say that
  774. # [18:02] <jgraham> Me?
  775. # [18:02] <karlcow> :D
  776. # [18:02] <jgraham> Philip` was far more likely
  777. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> why not, is because for whatever reason, I typed "http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html5-diff-20101019/ is not ready for publication" initially
  778. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> I didn't spend a whole lot of time thinking about why I wanted the "now" in there to begin with
  779. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> I just typed it
  780. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> mistyped it
  781. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> jgraham: well, not you in particular
  782. # [18:03] <karlcow> or a script which does "uri pub" and creates the sentence automatically :p
  783. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> "you" in general
  784. # [18:03] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  785. # [18:04] <karlcow> "at the moment, at present, at the present (time/moment), at this moment in time, currently, presently."
  786. # [18:04] <karlcow> "3 you must leave now: at once, straightaway, right away, right now, this minute, this instant, immediately, instantly, directly, without further ado, promptly, without delay, as soon as possible; informal pronto, straight off, ASAP."
  787. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> thanks Mr. Encyclopedia
  788. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> ;)
  789. # [18:05] <karlcow> "http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html5-diff-20101019/ is without further ado ready for publication"
  790. # [18:05] <karlcow> hmmm
  791. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> heh
  792. # [18:05] <karlcow> coming from Apple Dictionary
  793. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> "now" in Hungarian is "most"
  794. # [18:05] <karlcow> The thesaurus section
  795. # [18:06] <jgraham> s/without further ado/after much ado/
  796. # [18:06] <jgraham> and you can set yourself up for a world of Shakespeare puns
  797. # [18:06] * Joins: tonyg-cr (~Adium@nat/google/x-oqwtdnowdhxaeipd)
  798. # [18:07] * karlcow is trying to guess the difference between the two jgraham gave.
  799. # [18:07] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  800. # [18:07] <karlcow> reaching my English inabilities
  801. # [18:07] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1191:598:8b1f:6f9c:549c)
  802. # [18:07] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1191:598:8b1f:6f9c:549c) (Changing host)
  803. # [18:07] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  804. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> I like "nå"
  805. # [18:08] <jgraham> karlcow: Just that "Much ado about nothing" is the play
  806. # [18:08] <jgraham> (so "much ado" for short)
  807. # [18:09] <karlcow> aaaah. capice
  808. # [18:09] <karlcow> merci
  809. # [18:09] <jcranmer> lol
  810. # [18:09] <jcranmer> Come back later! Enjoy your fall break~
  811. # [18:09] <jcranmer> Brandon
  812. # [18:09] <jcranmer> no
  813. # [18:09] <jcranmer> Chandler
  814. # [18:09] <jgraham> I thought "capice" was Italian
  815. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> I think I will just start using "ahora"
  816. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> with ital
  817. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> "http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html5-diff-20101019/ is ready for publication _ahora_"
  818. # [18:11] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feaf:7f36) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  819. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> I think more European speakers already know what "ahora" means, right?
  820. # [18:11] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
  821. # [18:11] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feaf:7f36)
  822. # [18:11] * Philip` wouldn't know that
  823. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> really?
  824. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> hmm
  825. # [18:13] <karlcow> but agora is easier to pronunce
  826. # [18:13] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  827. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> "now" in "nu" in Esparanto
  828. # [18:13] <karlcow> though agora might confuse greek people
  829. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> and in several other languages of course
  830. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> but I don't think most native English speakers know "nu"
  831. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> I wonder why Google Translate doesn't do Esparanto
  832. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> seems like it used to
  833. # [18:15] * Quits: kbrosnan (~kbrosnan@ip24-250-54-36.ri.ri.cox.net) (Quit: leaving)
  834. # [18:17] * Joins: kbrosnan (~kbrosnan@ip24-250-54-36.ri.ri.cox.net)
  835. # [18:17] * Quits: reni__home (~reni@sedkit.inf.u-szeged.hu) (Remote host closed the connection)
  836. # [18:17] <jgraham> Hmm, I just noticed that the phrasing of the HTML5 spec around foreign content stuff makes it hard to implement in html5lib without invasive changes :(
  837. # [18:18] <jgraham> Specifically the "except that if those rules say to reprocess the token, these steps must be finished first"
  838. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> jgraham: was the text added recently?
  839. # [18:18] <jgraham> Yeah
  840. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> I see
  841. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> didn't remember that being in there before
  842. # [18:19] <jgraham> Typically the token is reprocessed by a direct call rather than by spinning the loop again with the same token
  843. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> I suspect other implementations might be doing it that same way
  844. # [18:19] <jgraham> I think it is OK for Henri as phrased
  845. # [18:19] <jgraham> I dunno about the WebKit implementation
  846. # [18:19] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-cpgzmdhtdbqllgwo) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  847. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> I wonder about the PHP parser
  848. # [18:20] <jgraham> Ask gsnedders
  849. # [18:20] * MikeSmith tries to remember what others there are at this point
  850. # [18:20] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-pcctqunijifptxrq)
  851. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> there is a DOM parser in node.js now
  852. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> but it does not attempt to conform to the HTML5 spec yet
  853. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> as far as I remember
  854. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> I think there are actually more than one DOM implementations in node
  855. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> that are in various states of development
  856. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> but I think the most mature one is not HTML5-conformant
  857. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> I think hober has been following the work on that one
  858. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> and filed a bug
  859. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> or enhancement request
  860. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> that is should conform to HTML5
  861. # [18:22] <jgraham> Writing a from scratch HTML5 parser and not following the HTML5 spec is just lame
  862. # [18:22] <jgraham> Well naive
  863. # [18:22] <jgraham> probably
  864. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> well, people don't know
  865. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> they work on a lot of stuff
  866. # [18:22] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@99-59-125-34.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  867. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> they don't follow every single thing that goes on in standards land
  868. # [18:23] <jgraham> Indeed
  869. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> anyway, I think hober is on top of it
  870. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> in this case
  871. # [18:23] <jgraham> But you might have thought that if you were going to write a HTML parser you would at least check out the HTML spec
  872. # [18:23] <jgraham> hober++
  873. # [18:24] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Will be fine for the PHP impl, as that just spins the loop again for it ordinarily
  874. # [18:24] <jgraham> (I know history might have taught you to regard the HTML spec as basically useless for all purposes except inciting markup purity holy wars)
  875. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: k
  876. # [18:24] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~henrik@c83-249-65-238.bredband.comhem.se)
  877. # [18:25] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Not that anyone is intending on maintaining it
  878. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> heh
  879. # [18:25] <gsnedders> (I refuse to implement all of the script tokenizer states again.)
  880. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> about the node DOM thing, for now, I'm just glad at all to have a DOM implementation at node
  881. # [18:25] <jgraham> I guess at some point I will end up making a reprocessToken() function or something
  882. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> *in node
  883. # [18:26] <jgraham> and tediously removing all the explicit calls
  884. # [18:26] <jgraham> and then missing some and creating bugs
  885. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> or in JS, really (which is what it comes down to)
  886. # [18:26] <jgraham> and then finding out that there is some special case where it doesn't quite work
  887. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> (I don't know how tightly bound if at all the parser might be to node)
  888. # [18:27] <jgraham> Eventually we will be able to write a whole browser in js
  889. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> heh
  890. # [18:27] <jgraham> and you will run a browser in your browser
  891. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> we certainly may be able to write a validator at least
  892. # [18:27] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@c-69-181-26-199.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: mdelaney)
  893. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> or more specifically, an HTML5 conformance checker
  894. # [18:27] <jgraham> Well the Mozilla people have javascript in js
  895. # [18:28] <Philip`> I thought there was someone on the WHATWG list seriously proposing that the web platform should be extended so that it's complete enough to write a browser
  896. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> yeah
  897. # [18:28] <jgraham> and doing image decoding and stuff can't be that hard
  898. # [18:28] <jgraham> Just need a layout engine
  899. # [18:29] <Philip`> Surely implementing CSS 2.1 can't be that hard
  900. # [18:29] <Philip`> It's just a load of boxes
  901. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> heh
  902. # [18:31] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:4aff:fe14:aad6)
  903. # [18:34] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
  904. # [18:34] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@adsl-68-126-178-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
  905. # [18:36] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-ec9fe355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  906. # [18:37] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-pcctqunijifptxrq) (Quit: brb)
  907. # [18:39] * Quits: akamike (~akamike@94-193-106-14.zone7.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: akamike)
  908. # [18:41] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@adsl-68-126-178-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) (Quit: mdelaney)
  909. # [18:41] * Parts: Phae (~Phae@chimera.macmillan.com)
  910. # [18:41] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@17.246.19.210) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  911. # [18:44] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@ip-213-49-112-28.dsl.scarlet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
  912. # [18:45] * Joins: aroben_ (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1191:598:8b1f:6f9c:549c)
  913. # [18:45] * Quits: aroben_ (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1191:598:8b1f:6f9c:549c) (Changing host)
  914. # [18:45] * Joins: aroben_ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  915. # [18:48] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  916. # [18:49] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@rrcs-76-79-114-214.west.biz.rr.com)
  917. # [18:49] * Joins: eric_carlson (~ericc@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feb1:5d30)
  918. # [18:50] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  919. # [18:51] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool86.cs.man.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  920. # [18:51] * Quits: aroben_ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  921. # [18:53] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@2620:0:1b00:1f08:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a)
  922. # [18:53] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  923. # [18:54] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  924. # [18:57] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@66.109.106.113)
  925. # [19:01] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
  926. # [19:02] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-wtgdnjtgpcvcawuy)
  927. # [19:03] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108)
  928. # [19:04] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108) (Client Quit)
  929. # [19:05] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  930. # [19:08] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-196-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  931. # [19:10] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
  932. # [19:15] <karlcow> looking at Server Sent Events, and remember Pointcast http://www.nczonline.net/blog/2010/10/19/introduction-to-server-sent-events/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_technology
  933. # [19:16] * Quits: Peter` (~peter@170-116.citynet.ftth.internl.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  934. # [19:18] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181063178.pp.htv.fi)
  935. # [19:26] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@170-116.citynet.ftth.internl.net)
  936. # [19:30] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181063178.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  937. # [19:30] * Joins: aroben_ (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1191:598:8b1f:6f9c:549c)
  938. # [19:30] * Quits: aroben_ (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1191:598:8b1f:6f9c:549c) (Changing host)
  939. # [19:30] * Joins: aroben_ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  940. # [19:32] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  941. # [19:33] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
  942. # [19:33] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-33-102.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  943. # [19:37] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-151-113.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  944. # [19:37] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  945. # [19:39] * Joins: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  946. # [19:46] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@65.168.34.95.customer.cdi.no)
  947. # [19:52] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feaf:7f36) (Quit: weinig)
  948. # [19:54] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de)
  949. # [19:58] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-196-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  950. # [19:59] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@66.109.106.113) (Quit: mdelaney)
  951. # [20:00] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-wtgdnjtgpcvcawuy) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.10/20100920140826])
  952. # [20:01] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-aonbqxjrmdsorfpi)
  953. # [20:02] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-xrjkjxjgeawseuvg)
  954. # [20:02] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: Leaving)
  955. # [20:03] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  956. # [20:04] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0)
  957. # [20:05] * Joins: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.153.2)
  958. # [20:06] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-196-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  959. # [20:08] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@91.182.157.168)
  960. # [20:09] * Joins: Darxus (~darxus@panic.chaosreigns.com)
  961. # [20:16] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-196-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  962. # [20:19] * Joins: gratz|home (~gratz@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust237.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  963. # [20:21] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: Connection timed out)
  964. # [20:26] * Joins: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com)
  965. # [20:26] * Quits: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com) (Excess Flood)
  966. # [20:30] * Joins: aroben_ (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1191:598:8b1f:6f9c:549c)
  967. # [20:30] * Quits: aroben_ (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1191:598:8b1f:6f9c:549c) (Changing host)
  968. # [20:30] * Joins: aroben_ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  969. # [20:33] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  970. # [20:42] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  971. # [20:45] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-aonbqxjrmdsorfpi) (Quit: brb)
  972. # [20:46] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  973. # [20:46] * Quits: volkmar (~volkmar@gentoo/developer/volkmar) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  974. # [20:47] * Joins: volkmar (~volkmar@rps1542.ovh.net)
  975. # [20:47] * Quits: volkmar (~volkmar@rps1542.ovh.net) (Changing host)
  976. # [20:47] * Joins: volkmar (~volkmar@gentoo/developer/volkmar)
  977. # [20:47] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  978. # [20:48] * TabAtkin1_ wishes Server-Sent Events would work in Chrome, or at least he could figure out why his trivial demo isn't working in Chrome.
  979. # [20:48] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.246.19.249)
  980. # [20:48] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-oxaxqkzgqxfzxyqz)
  981. # [20:49] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108)
  982. # [20:50] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0) (Quit: mdelaney)
  983. # [20:51] * Joins: heycam (~cam@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  984. # [20:52] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-mbofehkqukodgchu)
  985. # [20:54] * Quits: jer|afk (~jernoble@17.203.14.197) (Quit: jer|afk)
  986. # [20:54] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  987. # [20:56] * Quits: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: nimbupani)
  988. # [20:57] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-222-194.cnt.nerim.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  989. # [21:00] * TabAtkin1_ is now known as TabAtkins_
  990. # [21:05] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108) (Remote host closed the connection)
  991. # [21:07] * Quits: timeless_mbp (~timeless@192.100.124.156) (Quit: Leaving.)
  992. # [21:11] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-24-130-129-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  993. # [21:11] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-ec9fe355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  994. # [21:22] * Quits: estes (~aestes@17.246.19.249) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  995. # [21:24] * Quits: aroben_ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  996. # [21:26] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.153.2) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  997. # [21:26] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181063178.pp.htv.fi)
  998. # [21:27] * Quits: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.153.2) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  999. # [21:30] * Parts: Darxus (~darxus@panic.chaosreigns.com)
  1000. # [21:30] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.246.19.249)
  1001. # [21:31] * Joins: albreche (~pierre-al@AToulouse-551-1-13-59.w86-196.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  1002. # [21:32] * Quits: roc (~roc@121.98.230.221) (Quit: roc)
  1003. # [21:40] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181063178.pp.htv.fi) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 4.0b8pre/20101012184407])
  1004. # [21:41] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  1005. # [21:42] * Quits: plainhao (~plainhao@mail.xbiotica.com) (Quit: plainhao)
  1006. # [21:46] <MikeSmith> does HTML4 or any other spec say that ID values should be compared case-insensitively?
  1007. # [21:48] <MikeSmith> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatwg.org%2Fspecs%2Fweb-apps%2Fcurrent-work%2Fmultipage%2Fnamed-character-references.html&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=HTML+4.01+Strict&group=1&user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.1
  1008. # [21:48] <MikeSmith> see the "ID X already defined" errors
  1009. # [21:49] <MikeSmith> I am wondering if the W3C validator is intentionally configured to check IDs case-insensitively for some reason
  1010. # [21:53] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.157.168) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1011. # [21:53] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-xrjkjxjgeawseuvg) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1012. # [21:59] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl) (Quit: Necrathex)
  1013. # [22:01] * Quits: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.)
  1014. # [22:02] * Joins: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1015. # [22:07] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1191:598:8b1f:6f9c:549c)
  1016. # [22:07] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1191:598:8b1f:6f9c:549c) (Changing host)
  1017. # [22:07] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  1018. # [22:11] * Quits: davidb__ (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com) (Quit: davidb__)
  1019. # [22:12] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@dslb-188-103-023-188.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Quit: Die demokratieerhaltende Whistleblower-Organisation Krautchan freut sich immer über Spenden.)
  1020. # [22:13] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-134-27-91.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  1021. # [22:13] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.39)
  1022. # [22:13] * Quits: estes (~aestes@17.246.19.249) (Quit: estes)
  1023. # [22:15] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: ID validation in html4 inherits the sgml rules for IDs (since IDness is specified in the DTD)
  1024. # [22:15] <MikeSmith> OK
  1025. # [22:16] <MikeSmith> so next question is, did SGML have the notion of case-insensitve IDs
  1026. # [22:18] * Joins: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  1027. # [22:19] * Joins: WHATWG (~apermanen@67-134-147-135.dia.static.qwest.net)
  1028. # [22:24] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.138.210) (Quit: .)
  1029. # [22:25] * Quits: smorg (~quassel@174-30-207-66.mpls.qwest.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1030. # [22:26] * Joins: smorg (~quassel@174-30-207-66.mpls.qwest.net)
  1031. # [22:29] * Joins: timeless_mbp (~timeless@a88-115-8-36.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  1032. # [22:33] <m0> Hixie: Sorry for the long response :-) It is a Haptics device, my personal experiment is to make Accessibility better for disabled people (blindness)
  1033. # [22:33] <m0> s/long/late
  1034. # [22:37] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.246.19.249)
  1035. # [22:38] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0)
  1036. # [22:39] * Joins: rymo (26796046@gateway/web/freenode/ip.38.121.96.70)
  1037. # [22:39] * Quits: smorg (~quassel@174-30-207-66.mpls.qwest.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1038. # [22:40] * Joins: smorg (~quassel@174-30-207-66.mpls.qwest.net)
  1039. # [22:40] * Quits: smorg (~quassel@174-30-207-66.mpls.qwest.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1040. # [22:40] * Quits: albreche (~pierre-al@AToulouse-551-1-13-59.w86-196.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Quit: Quitte)
  1041. # [22:42] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@535174DE.cm-6-2b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1042. # [22:46] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181063178.pp.htv.fi)
  1043. # [22:46] * Quits: WHATWG (~apermanen@67-134-147-135.dia.static.qwest.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1044. # [22:47] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181063178.pp.htv.fi) (Client Quit)
  1045. # [22:47] * Quits: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.)
  1046. # [22:48] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-lkxknnkevbnoncjw)
  1047. # [22:48] * Joins: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1048. # [22:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: i can't say i ever think about xslt, sorry. If you want anything added for it, file a bug, happy to add a note.
  1049. # [22:52] * Joins: Peter- (~peter@535174DE.cm-6-2b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1050. # [22:57] * Joins: david_carlisle (~davidc@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  1051. # [22:57] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: yes
  1052. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: IDs in SGML are case-insenstive, you mean?
  1053. # [22:59] <david_carlisle> by default yes
  1054. # [22:59] <david_carlisle> <y id="aa">xx</y>
  1055. # [22:59] <david_carlisle> <y ref="AA">xx</y>
  1056. # [22:59] <david_carlisle> validates
  1057. # [22:59] <david_carlisle> basically the rules for id are same as rules for element names
  1058. # [23:02] * Joins: murz (~mmurraywa@wcproxy.msnbc.com)
  1059. # [23:03] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@2620:0:1b00:1f08:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1060. # [23:03] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@2620:0:1b00:1171:d69a:20ff:febd:c914)
  1061. # [23:04] <zcorpan> david_carlisle: does the html4 sgml decl make IDs case-insensitive?
  1062. # [23:04] <david_carlisle> just looking...
  1063. # [23:05] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@2620:0:1b00:1171:d69a:20ff:febd:c914) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1064. # [23:05] <david_carlisle> I was quicker at reading this stuff in a previous life
  1065. # [23:05] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@2620:0:1b00:1171:d69a:20ff:febd:c914)
  1066. # [23:06] <david_carlisle> NAMECASE GENERAL YES
  1067. # [23:06] <david_carlisle> ENTITY NO
  1068. # [23:06] <david_carlisle> so I think entities are case sensitive everything else not, but I'll just check with onsgmls on an example...
  1069. # [23:07] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@2620:0:1b00:1171:d69a:20ff:febd:c914) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1070. # [23:08] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@2620:0:1b00:1171:d69a:20ff:febd:c914)
  1071. # [23:08] <zcorpan> for some reason i thought IDs were always case-sensitive in sgml
  1072. # [23:11] * Joins: aho (~nya@fuld-4d00d748.pool.mediaWays.net)
  1073. # [23:12] * Quits: estes (~aestes@17.246.19.249) (Quit: estes)
  1074. # [23:17] * Quits: gratz|home (~gratz@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust237.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  1075. # [23:17] <david_carlisle> zcopan: onsgmls says this is valid
  1076. # [23:17] <david_carlisle> $ onsgmls.exe table.html > /dev/null
  1077. # [23:17] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1078. # [23:17] <david_carlisle> <!DOCTYPE html SYSTEM "HTML4.dtd">
  1079. # [23:17] <david_carlisle> <html>
  1080. # [23:17] <david_carlisle> <head>
  1081. # [23:17] <david_carlisle> <title>?</title>
  1082. # [23:17] <david_carlisle> </head>
  1083. # [23:17] <david_carlisle> <body>
  1084. # [23:17] <david_carlisle> <table id="aa">
  1085. # [23:17] <david_carlisle> <tr>
  1086. # [23:17] <david_carlisle> <td headers="AA"></td>
  1087. # [23:17] <david_carlisle> </tr>
  1088. # [23:17] <david_carlisle> </table>
  1089. # [23:17] <david_carlisle> </body>
  1090. # [23:17] <david_carlisle> </html>
  1091. # [23:18] <zcorpan> ok
  1092. # [23:18] <david_carlisle> sgml spec is as clear as mud, but I'd trust James clark :-)
  1093. # [23:22] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  1094. # [23:23] <Hixie> anyone know why opera doesn't handle http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/navigation/interrupts/harness.html correctly?
  1095. # [23:24] <Hixie> it seems to just not be running scripts
  1096. # [23:24] <Hixie> oh nm
  1097. # [23:24] <Hixie> now it works
  1098. # [23:25] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.246.19.249)
  1099. # [23:27] * Joins: timeless_mbp1 (~timeless@a88-115-8-36.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  1100. # [23:28] * Quits: timeless_mbp (~timeless@a88-115-8-36.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1101. # [23:28] * timeless_mbp1 is now known as timeless_mbp
  1102. # [23:29] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3602:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7) (Quit: kennyluck)
  1103. # [23:35] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3602:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7)
  1104. # [23:35] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3602:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7) (Excess Flood)
  1105. # [23:36] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~henrik@c83-249-65-238.bredband.comhem.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1106. # [23:39] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feb1:5d30) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  1107. # [23:42] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-oxaxqkzgqxfzxyqz) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  1108. # [23:43] <heycam> hsivonen, yt?
  1109. # [23:43] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-jplldvnoyuhgmlxo)
  1110. # [23:45] <zcorpan> heycam: btw, it would be great if webidl said what to do with too few arguments to constructors and methods (i think it has a note about this)
  1111. # [23:46] <heycam> zcorpan, yeah it would be good if there were a note in there saying simply what the requirements are. (it is in fact defined, as a result of the overload resolution stuff.)
  1112. # [23:46] <heycam> but i'm not sure people are happy with that overload stuff, so it's probable that that will change
  1113. # [23:47] <zcorpan> oh, i didn't know it was defined
  1114. # [23:47] <heycam> there's a note in the spec about deciding whether the requirement for too few/many arguments should be changed
  1115. # [23:47] <heycam> i believe it currently requires a TypeError for any mismatch of argument count
  1116. # [23:47] <zcorpan> ah
  1117. # [23:47] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  1118. # [23:47] <heycam> that i only believe it and not know it is not a great reflection on the writing there :)
  1119. # [23:47] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-jplldvnoyuhgmlxo) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1120. # [23:48] <zcorpan> no one throws for too many arguments, i wonder if web content relies on that
  1121. # [23:48] <heycam> hope not, then :)
  1122. # [23:49] <heycam> if it doesn't, then it might be good for future compat if we want to add more arguments to methods
  1123. # [23:49] <heycam> to throw, that is
  1124. # [23:50] <zcorpan> yes
  1125. # [23:50] <zcorpan> i wonder if webkit and ie are willing to change for the too few arguments case
  1126. # [23:51] <heycam> do you know if they allow any invocations for two-few args? or just few a selection of methods (like addEventListener assuming false at the end)?
  1127. # [23:52] <heycam> if it's just a few, and they're unwilling to change, we could introduce some overloading to handle those cases
  1128. # [23:52] <zcorpan> they allow missing arguments everywhere
  1129. # [23:52] <heycam> mm
  1130. # [23:52] <heycam> i wonder if it is as important to throw for such cases
  1131. # [23:53] <gsnedders> What do they default to for stuff?
  1132. # [23:53] <heycam> if we wanted to introduce overloadings with fewer arguments later on...
  1133. # [23:53] <zcorpan> gsnedders: undefined
  1134. # [23:53] <gsnedders> zcorpan: And then maybe throw if undefined isn't an allowed type for that argument?
  1135. # [23:53] <gsnedders> (e.g., undefined can't really become HTMLElement)
  1136. # [23:54] <heycam> although undefined can become null which sometimes might be allowed as an HTMLElement arg
  1137. # [23:54] <zcorpan> gsnedders: yeah, i guess
  1138. # [23:54] <heycam> i like anne's suggestion of removing "null" from the set of object reference values
  1139. # [23:54] <heycam> and only explicitly allowing it with a "?"
  1140. # [23:55] <gsnedders> heycam: Yeah, it makes sense for it to become another non-object primitive
  1141. # [23:57] <zcorpan> in ie document.createElement() is equivalent to document.createElement(null) but different to document.createElement(undefined)
  1142. # [23:57] <heycam> :/
  1143. # [23:57] <gsnedders> zcorpan: so creates an element called "null"?
  1144. # [23:58] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-jctpgbyzpzpjsjdb)
  1145. # [23:59] <zcorpan> gsnedders: yes
  1146. # [23:59] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-jctpgbyzpzpjsjdb) (Client Quit)
  1147. # [23:59] <zcorpan> getElementById also defaults to null
  1148. # [23:59] <zcorpan> so maybe ie defaults to null everywhere
  1149. # [23:59] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-subuhlgbxuubiour)
  1150. # [23:59] <zcorpan> instead of undefined
  1151. # [23:59] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@535174DE.cm-6-2b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1152. # [23:59] <zcorpan> this is ie9 beta
  1153. # [23:59] <jgraham> The logical-from-js behaviour would be foo() === foo(undefined)
  1154. # [00:00] <heycam> yeah
  1155. # Session Close: Wed Oct 20 00:00:00 2010

The end :)