/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-10-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 20 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <jgraham> I think we should throw for too-few arguments but not too many
  4. # [00:00] <heycam> i wonder if sites rely on elements with ID or name "null"
  5. # [00:00] <heycam> jgraham, for consistency with the functions defined in the ES spec?
  6. # [00:00] * gsnedders places bet they do
  7. # [00:00] <gsnedders> I think we should throw for both.
  8. # [00:00] <jgraham> heycam: For sanity, mainly
  9. # [00:01] <heycam> you'll have to define sanity :)
  10. # [00:01] <zcorpan> opera and firefox throw for too few but not too many
  11. # [00:01] <gsnedders> It means we can add new features with new arguments, and it's obvious when they aren't supported
  12. # [00:01] <heycam> gsnedders, yeah i think that would be the main argument for throwing for too many
  13. # [00:01] <jgraham> We can't really do that reliably at the moment if others don't throw
  14. # [00:02] <jgraham> And it seems like DOM should be as consistent with javascript as possible
  15. # [00:02] <heycam> if others don't throw, then introducing new overloads with more arguments is already going to be fraught with compat worries then, i suppose!
  16. # [00:03] <jgraham> We should tie it to ES5 strict mode!
  17. # [00:03] <jgraham> (note: not a serious suggestion)
  18. # [00:03] <gsnedders> No, to Harmony!
  19. # [00:03] <jgraham> (although I can imagine people seriously advocating it)
  20. # [00:03] <gsnedders> (note: an even less serious suggestion)
  21. # [00:04] <heycam> i'll tie you to E5 strict mode in a minute!
  22. # [00:04] <heycam> ES5*
  23. # [00:04] <Rik`> so Chrome 7 is the first browser to ship a HTML5 parser, right?
  24. # [00:04] <zcorpan> chrome 7 shipped?
  25. # [00:04] <gsnedders> Well, they haven't shipped it in stable, and Chrome 6 is still beta, no?
  26. # [00:04] <gsnedders> Firefox 4 has shipped in betas, at least
  27. # [00:05] <Rik`> zcorpan: http://googlechromereleases.blogspot.com/2010/10/stable-channel-update.html
  28. # [00:05] * gsnedders realizes how out of date he is
  29. # [00:05] <aho> dev channel is at 8.0.552.5 right now :>
  30. # [00:06] * gsnedders wonders why TabAtkins_ did the CSS 2.1 IR with 6 (so not even the beta, as agreed before…)
  31. # [00:06] <zcorpan> well then i guess the answer is "yes"
  32. # [00:07] <gsnedders> (Also: sing-along A Wizard of Oz! :D)
  33. # [00:08] * Quits: Anti-X (~duckmysic@77.17.17.130.tmi.telenormobil.no)
  34. # [00:09] <heycam> hsivonen (and anyone else): consider http://mcc.id.au/temp/ser.html and how the xlink:href attribute gets (un-round-tripably) serialised to an attribte named "href" in firefox nightlies (at least)
  35. # [00:09] <gsnedders> (But maybe only I find that awesome.)
  36. # [00:09] <heycam> is that per spec, and if so, is it reasonable behaviour?
  37. # [00:10] <gsnedders> heycam: Off the top of my head, per spec
  38. # [00:10] <heycam> gsnedders, ok. reasonable?
  39. # [00:10] <gsnedders> Yeah, per spec.
  40. # [00:10] <gsnedders> IMO no.
  41. # [00:10] <heycam> imo valid html syntax should be roundtrippable always
  42. # [00:13] <zcorpan> "For each attribute that the element has, append a U+0020 SPACE character, the attribute's name (which, for attributes set by the HTML parser or by Element.setAttributeNode() or Element.setAttribute(), will be lowercase), a U+003D EQUALS SIGN character (=), a U+0022 QUOTATION MARK character ("), the attribute's value, escaped as described below in attribute mode, and a second U+0022 QUOTATION MARK character (")."
  43. # [00:13] <hober> heycam: I see the same in chrome, fwiw
  44. # [00:13] <zcorpan> i think "the attribute's name" is the qualified name
  45. # [00:13] <gsnedders> Why?
  46. # [00:14] <jgraham> why what?
  47. # [00:15] <gsnedders> Why do you think it's the qname?
  48. # [00:15] <zcorpan> because i remember discussing this exact issue a few years back
  49. # [00:15] <zcorpan> and attr.name returns the qname
  50. # [00:16] <jgraham> Could be clearer in the spec
  51. # [00:16] <heycam> looking at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#adjust-foreign-attributes it doesn't explicitly say what the dom 1 name of the attribute node should be
  52. # [00:17] <zcorpan> heycam: web dom core fixes that :)
  53. # [00:17] <zcorpan> jgraham: yes. i'll file a bug
  54. # [00:19] <heycam> zcorpan, so it does :)
  55. # [00:20] <heycam> but does "attribute name" in html5 mean attr.name?
  56. # [00:21] <jgraham> heycam: Who knows :) Hence the bug
  57. # [00:21] <jgraham> (I assume zcorpan is right that it does)
  58. # [00:21] <jgraham> (but nevertheless that cannot be reliably deduced from the spec)
  59. # [00:22] * gsnedders assumed localname, but oh well
  60. # [00:25] <jgraham> So did I but zcorpan made more sense
  61. # [00:25] <gsnedders> zcorpan often does.
  62. # [00:27] <heycam> i did a `host` on the ip address zcorpan filed the bug from to find ...cust.bredbandsbolaget.se. to me it read like "bread and beaujolais", and now i'm hungry.
  63. # [00:28] <zcorpan> lol
  64. # [00:28] <zcorpan> time for sleep
  65. # [00:28] <heycam> later
  66. # [00:28] <zcorpan> bye
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  243. # [08:54] <Hixie> does IE8 not support incremental loading of HTML content?
  244. # [08:54] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/timers/nph-009-demo.html for me in IE has it wait til the whole thing is loaded before parsing anything
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  250. # [09:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: if we make createContextualFragment create scripts that are script-created and don't have their 'already started' flag set, would you be OK with adding a parameter to the HTML fragment parsing algorithm for controlling script execution prevention?
  251. # [09:06] <Hixie> what's createContextualFragment()?
  252. # [09:07] <Hixie> is it like insertAdjacentHTML()?
  253. # [09:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: it runs the fragment parsing algorithm with a string input and a context node and returns the corresponding DOM fragment
  254. # [09:07] <Hixie> or is it the DOM Range thing?
  255. # [09:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's the Range thing
  256. # [09:07] <Hixie> hmm
  257. # [09:07] <hsivonen> I think insertAdjacentHTML() should prevent execution
  258. # [09:08] <Hixie> what's the use case for inserting scripts with createContextualFragment?
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  260. # [09:08] <Hixie> if we can get away with it just not executing scripts that sounds best to me
  261. # [09:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: currently, the main use case is emulating insertAdjacentHTML in browsers that don't have it *yet*
  262. # [09:09] <Hixie> in that case, yeah, not running scripts seems best
  263. # [09:09] <Hixie> (there are browsers with createContextualFragment but not insertAdjacentHTML?)
  264. # [09:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: but once insertAdjacentHTML is supported, if you think of createContextualFragment as a standalone feature, it's a shortcut for building a DOM fragment
  265. # [09:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: Gecko
  266. # [09:09] <Hixie> wow, i thought iAH was a mozillaism
  267. # [09:09] <Hixie> shows what i know
  268. # [09:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: and if you built the DOM fragment manually, the scripts would be executable
  269. # [09:09] <hsivonen> so it's illogical for the shortcut to make scripts unexecutable
  270. # [09:09] <Hixie> well the same could be said of innerHTML
  271. # [09:09] <hsivonen> the scripts are executable in Firefox 3.6 and in Opera
  272. # [09:10] <Hixie> but it still blocks script execution
  273. # [09:10] <hsivonen> but not in WebKit
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  275. # [09:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: only because other browsers cloned IE imprecisely and the execution prevention became the norm
  276. # [09:10] <hsivonen> for innerHTML that is
  277. # [09:11] <Hixie> innerHTML not running scripts is definitely a plus in my book, given how much that simplifies so many complicated things
  278. # [09:11] <Hixie> but anyway
  279. # [09:11] <Hixie> how does innerHTML stop script creation currently?
  280. # [09:11] <Hixie> does the fragment algorithm just block it?
  281. # [09:11] <hsivonen> if I were just lazy, preventing script execution for createContextualFragment would be easy, but I'm inclined to think that not preventing execution is the Right Thing
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  283. # [09:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: the fragment parsing algorithm sets 'already started'
  284. # [09:13] <Hixie> oh, i see, the parser does
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  286. # [09:13] <Hixie> hm, that makes parsing a flag a bit of a pain, but we could do it i guess
  287. # [09:13] <Hixie> tbh i'd strongly recommend just not running scripts unless you have a very clear use case that needs it. (i mean an actual use case, not "build a DOM" or "emulate this other API")
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  290. # [09:14] <Hixie> running scripts in weird places is one of the main causes of there being arcane parts to the platform
  291. # [09:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: the annoying part is that people who've filed WebKit and Gecko bugs about this just say what behavior they want--not what their use case was
  292. # [09:14] <Hixie> yeah, i hear ya
  293. # [09:15] <Hixie> i'm battling the i18n wg as we speak over doing exactly that
  294. # [09:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: the current plan is the run scripts from fragments created by XSLTPrecessor, so we'd still have to support fragments with executable scripts
  295. # [09:15] <hsivonen> and of course manually built ones
  296. # [09:15] <Hixie> does anyone actually use xslt to generate scripts?
  297. # [09:15] <Hixie> that's just frightening
  298. # [09:16] <hsivonen> who knows what Dark Matter does with XSLTProcessor
  299. # [09:16] <Hixie> instrument the code and find out
  300. # [09:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: as for scripts created via <?xml-stylesheet?>, there's a Chrome Experement doing that
  301. # [09:17] <hsivonen> which is why the issue is now on my plate
  302. # [09:17] <Hixie> feel free to break chrome experiments
  303. # [09:17] <Hixie> i'm happy to take the blame at google for that
  304. # [09:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: I believe that would be against our privacy principles to instrument code without a Test Pilot opt-in
  305. # [09:18] <Hixie> sure, i wasn't suggesting doing it without user consent
  306. # [09:18] <Hixie> i just meant in a special build or something
  307. # [09:18] <Hixie> don't you have betas specifically for this purpose?
  308. # [09:18] <Hixie> i mean, instrumented betas
  309. # [09:18] <Hixie> not necessarily the main beta line
  310. # [09:19] <hsivonen> I'm not aware of Mozilla doing intrumented betas
  311. # [09:19] <Hixie> ah
  312. # [09:19] <Hixie> well
  313. # [09:19] <Hixie> get the chrome team to do it
  314. # [09:19] <hsivonen> and even if we did, there'd be the problem of getting Dark Matter users to use them
  315. # [09:19] <Hixie> abarth will likely be happy to set it up
  316. # [09:19] <Hixie> what's Dark Matter? I thought you just meant random people Out There.
  317. # [09:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: enterprise intranets
  318. # [09:20] <hsivonen> or extranets
  319. # [09:20] <abarth> you're going to run scripts from fragments?
  320. # [09:20] <abarth> that seems crazy :)
  321. # [09:20] <Hixie> yeah well if we're going to live in fear of breaking enterprise intranets, we'll just end up in analysis paralysis
  322. # [09:20] <hsivonen> abarth: is non-running in WebKit by design or by accident?
  323. # [09:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: why would be go ahead and break stuff that used to work just for the sake of making scripts run less?
  324. # [09:21] <hsivonen> s/be/we/
  325. # [09:21] <abarth> there are architectural problems with running scripts without a frame in webkit
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  327. # [09:21] <abarth> the JavaScript engine can do it
  328. # [09:22] <hsivonen> abarth: oh, I don't mean running scripts while they aren't in a DOM that's in a browsing contenxt
  329. # [09:22] <abarth> but the code that knows how to talk to the JavaScript engine would be very confused
  330. # [09:22] <hsivonen> *context
  331. # [09:22] <Hixie> hsivonen: making scripts run less seems like a goal in and of itself to me. certainly in weird places like xslt where the security and interoperability implications are rather esoteric and not necessarily understood by many people.
  332. # [09:22] <hsivonen> abarth: I mean running scripts when a fragment is inserted into a DOM that's being displayed in a browsing context
  333. # [09:22] <hsivonen> which reminds me that I was about to file a spec bug about not running scripts that are in a document but the document doesn't have a browsing context
  334. # [09:22] <abarth> ah, that's technically feasible
  335. # [09:23] <Hixie> abarth: the specific case we're talking about instrumenting is the output of XSLT transforms that contain scripts
  336. # [09:23] <hsivonen> abarth: see http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/scripts/
  337. # [09:23] <abarth> scripts = script tags ?
  338. # [09:23] <abarth> or do inline event handlers count too?
  339. # [09:23] <Hixie> i think in gecko it creates an actual dom
  340. # [09:23] <hsivonen> abarth: script nodes
  341. # [09:23] <hsivonen> abarth: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/scripts/createContextualFragment.html
  342. # [09:24] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-149-173-56.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: micheil)
  343. # [09:24] <Hixie> anyway, if xslt is defined in terms of just creating a dom or a serialisation that's then parsed, it seems that this all just falls out of the spec as is
  344. # [09:24] <hsivonen> abarth: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/scripts/XSLTProcessor-transformToFragment.html
  345. # [09:24] <Hixie> how is xslt defined? (is it defined?)
  346. # [09:24] <hsivonen> abarth: those two run the script in Firefox 3.6 and in Opera 10.63 but not in WebKit
  347. # [09:24] <abarth> i think all these code paths chase down the same path as innerHTML
  348. # [09:24] <abarth> for inline scripts
  349. # [09:25] <abarth> the parser is responsible for kicking off script execution
  350. # [09:25] <hsivonen> abarth: it's easy to see how you'd accidentally make createContextualFragment prevent execution by reusing innerHTML infrastructure
  351. # [09:25] <abarth> but it doesn't do that if there's no frame
  352. # [09:25] <hsivonen> abarth: but http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/scripts/XSLTProcessor-transformToFragment.html is different
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  354. # [09:25] <abarth> to answer your question, i have no idea whether its intentional
  355. # [09:25] <hsivonen> abarth: ok
  356. # [09:26] <abarth> i think XSLT was added because someone at IBM complained
  357. # [09:26] <abarth> i'm not sure how many people actually care about it
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  359. # [09:28] <Hixie> IE's behaviour on http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/timers/nph-010-demo.html is shocking to me
  360. # [09:29] <Hixie> does IE really wait until the document is entirely loaded before doing anything?
  361. # [09:29] <Hixie> surely i'm just doing something wrong
  362. # [09:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: fwiw, I believe the closest thing to an XSLTProcessor spec is https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Using_the_Mozilla_JavaScript_interface_to_XSL_Transformations
  363. # [09:31] <Hixie> well transformToDocument should definitely not run the scripts
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  366. # [09:32] <Hixie> but i guess if you want the "already executed" flag to not be set, so long as the execution only happens once the stuff is inserted into the real document and not the innerHTML document, i guess we could finagle that
  367. # [09:33] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-149-173-56.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Client Quit)
  368. # [09:33] <Hixie> it'd be a bit of a hack... the reason the spec right now sets "already executed" the way it does, in addition to being ok for compat for innerHTML, is that the Document it's parsing into has no global scope
  369. # [09:33] <Hixie> so it can't run script anyway
  370. # [09:34] <abarth> what's the benefit of running scripts?
  371. # [09:35] <Hixie> it's unclear to me that there is one
  372. # [09:35] <hsivonen> abarth: at least jQuery goes through trouble to make itself a fragment parser that does run scripts
  373. # [09:35] <Hixie> i'd much rather just not run them
  374. # [09:36] <abarth> interesting
  375. # [09:36] <hsivonen> JohnResig: do you have input for use cases for or against createContextualFragment creating executable scripts?
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  377. # [09:36] <abarth> i still think we should have some way of parsing a fragment that lets you whitelist tags and attributes
  378. # [09:37] <abarth> its not really related, but its very popular in server-side frameworks
  379. # [09:37] <hsivonen> though it's unclear if jQuery would benefit from the behavior that would result from createContextualFragment creating executable script nodes, because those scripts wouldn't execute in order when the fragment is inserted to the DOM
  380. # [09:37] * Rik`_ is now known as Rik`
  381. # [09:38] <abarth> :)
  382. # [09:39] <hsivonen> it would be so nice if people filing these bugs said more about their higher-level use cases
  383. # [09:41] <Hixie> agreed
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  393. # [09:55] <hsivonen> I asked the reporters to elaborate on their use cases in both bugzillas
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  398. # [10:04] <zcorpan> whatwg.org is really really slow for me. just me?
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  403. # [10:39] <antti_s> are there any plans for localization eg. on input type="number"s or type="date"s?
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  407. # [10:56] <zcorpan> hmm i realized that importScripts is sync
  408. # [10:59] <jgraham> Oh
  409. # [10:59] * volkmar_ is now known as volkmar
  410. # [10:59] <jgraham> I was just going to say I liked that idea
  411. # [10:59] <jgraham> No I don't anymore
  412. # [10:59] <jgraham> *Now
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  417. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: whatwg.org seems to be responding normally to me
  418. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> at least the spec, wiki, and mailing-list archives
  419. # [11:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: whatwg.org is not working properly for me
  420. # [11:23] <hsivonen> "The server at www.whatwg.org is taking too long to respond."
  421. # [11:25] * MikeSmith trries some other browsers
  422. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: seems to be working the same for me in every browser I've tried so far
  423. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> which is to say, responding normally
  424. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> including in WebKit with the "Disable Caches" option set
  425. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> (which seems to be the bestest was to test if stuff is actually being served from the source and not from a cache)
  426. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> is an Opera 11 snapshot available yet?
  427. # [11:30] <zcorpan> no
  428. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> ok
  429. # [11:31] <jgraham> MikeSmith: http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/ is the best place to look, in general
  430. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> ok
  431. # [11:31] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Disconnected...)
  432. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> btw, if there is somebody in particular to whom I should address Dragonfly bugs, please let me know
  433. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> *Dragonfly bug reports
  434. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> Hallvord?
  435. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> oh wait
  436. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> "If you are on BitBucket please follow Opera Dragonfly, and feel free to report new issues there."
  437. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> http://my.opera.com/hallvors/blog/2010/10/20/dragonfly-feedback-follow-up
  438. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> so I will feel free and do that
  439. # [11:36] <jgraham> virtuelv: ^
  440. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> ah
  441. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> damn, there's like 7 different dragonfly branches at bitbucker
  442. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> bitbucket
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  444. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> jgraham: thanks
  445. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> ah, Christian Krebs
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  447. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> I guess
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  461. # [12:34] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder if I'm testing IE9 wrong when I try to remove documentElement from a document
  462. # [12:41] <hsivonen> nope, that wasn't the problem
  463. # [12:45] <hsivonen> I see no logic in script execution in WebKit
  464. # [12:45] <hsivonen> most things make scripts not run, but this doesn't: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/scripts/createDocument.html
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  470. # [13:01] <rmccue> Anyone know about the html5lib for PHP?
  471. # [13:03] <crash\> as far as I can't tell there isn't
  472. # [13:03] <crash\> no HTML5 parser for PHP
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  474. # [13:03] <jgraham> Yes, it exists
  475. # [13:03] <jgraham> No I don't know much about it
  476. # [13:03] <gsnedders> rmccue: Yes.
  477. # [13:04] <rmccue> crash\: Part of http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/
  478. # [13:04] <rmccue> gsnedders: Why, hello you.
  479. # [13:04] <gsnedders> rmccue: ;P
  480. # [13:04] <crash\> ah
  481. # [13:04] <crash\> I though this is only Python
  482. # [13:04] <gsnedders> rmccue: Where do you think I hang out, if not channels like this? :)
  483. # [13:04] <rmccue> gsnedders: I had no idea you were awake.
  484. # [13:05] <gsnedders> rmccue: It's midday.
  485. # [13:05] <crash\> 0.1 pretty outdated
  486. # [13:05] <gsnedders> But yes, ask your question.
  487. # [13:06] <rmccue> It's returning blank DOMDocument/DOMNodeList objects for me.
  488. # [13:06] <gsnedders> Oh, nice.
  489. # [13:07] <gsnedders> Disclaimer: I've not touched html5lib/php in over a year
  490. # [13:07] <rmccue> Wait, maybe not.
  491. # [13:07] <rmccue> You mention the latter on a regular interval.
  492. # [13:08] <gsnedders> In a, "hey, rmccue, you should take it over" way :P
  493. # [13:08] <rmccue> OK, nevermind, it is working. PHP just sucks.
  494. # [13:08] <rmccue> Sure, but I hardly have time for anything else, let alone a HTML5 parser. :P
  495. # [13:08] <gsnedders> rmccue: Bogus bug report.
  496. # [13:09] <rmccue> Status: Invalid. Reason: PEBKAC
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  514. # [14:11] <david_carlisle> Hixie: does anyone actually use xslt to generate scripts?
  515. # [14:12] <david_carlisle> hixie: you mean generate an (x)html script element in the result document from xslt? if so yes, if you mean something else then I don't know:-)
  516. # [14:12] * Parts: rmccue (~rmccue@unaffiliated/rmccue) ("The general rule on about people on IRC seems to be "Attractive, single, mentally stable: choose two"")
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  518. # [14:20] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: it's known that people use <?xml-stylesheet?>-invoked XSLT to create (X)HTML script elements
  519. # [14:20] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: however, the interesting bit is if people use XSLTProcessor to create script nodes
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  521. # [14:21] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: like this: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/scripts/XSLTProcessor-transformToFragment.html
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  523. # [14:26] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: people who use xslt clearly have taste and don't go in for all this imperative DOM scripting p.appendChild nonsense. (This isn't being archived is it:-)
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  525. # [14:28] <david_carlisle> I have no idea, I doubt there are many instances of that, would it have been possible to get something like that working in previous versions of ie and firefox 9say)
  526. # [14:28] <david_carlisle> cross browser conserns tend to limit people being too adventurous in teh way they mix script and xslt in my experience
  527. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> I think the xslt+scripting has gotten better support across browsers in the last few years
  528. # [14:29] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: I haven't tested, but I assume that in IE it's not possible to move nodes from ActiveX-owned DOMs to the browser DOMs
  529. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> and browsers have node-set() and document() sanely supportd
  530. # [14:30] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: so if one used the IE XSLT API instead of XSLTProcessor(), adopting the node would fail
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  533. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> does anybody know if there has actually be any serious new movement in TC39 towards getting a binary data type added?
  534. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> is it on the agenda for the f2f next month?
  535. # [14:38] <david_carlisle> I could ask on xsl-list but that's probably not really the right audience, I think such usage is more likely buried in the libraries like sarissa that tried to hide a lot of the complexity.
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  541. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks for http://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/rev/b0fe4ac38a02
  542. # [14:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: you're welcome. sorry that I'm so slow
  543. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> no problem
  544. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> I am months behind on the vnu stuff I've meant to check in myself
  545. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> e.g., the changes to jing
  546. # [14:52] * timeless_mbp needs to get a hotel room
  547. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> for reporting required-but-missing attributes
  548. # [14:52] <hsivonen> timeless_mbp: for TPAC?
  549. # [14:53] <timeless_mbp> yeah
  550. # [14:53] <timeless_mbp> you going?
  551. # [14:53] <hsivonen> timeless_mbp: there's http://www.hoteldescongres.com/ and then there are the W3C-recommended hotels
  552. # [14:53] <hsivonen> timeless_mbp: other hotels nearby are either expensive or have gotten terrible reviews, AFAICT
  553. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: minor typo in your javadoc comment for the InfosetCoercingHtmlParser class
  554. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> "This is convenient then another JavaThis is convenient then another Java"
  555. # [14:54] <timeless_mbp> oh, yeah, it's just a matter of finding my hilton number and asking an assistant to get me a room
  556. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> should be "when another Java"
  557. # [14:54] <hsivonen> timeless_mbp: yes, I'm going
  558. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> anybody know if Jonas is going?
  559. # [14:54] <timeless_mbp> can't you cheat?
  560. # [14:54] <timeless_mbp> there's a survey form
  561. # [14:55] * MikeSmith forgot to ask Jonas when he chatted earlier
  562. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> yeah, I guess I could check
  563. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> not everybody registers by the deadline
  564. # [14:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: fixed. Thanks
  565. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> I think I have not registered yet myself
  566. # [14:55] <timeless_mbp> well maybe he isn't trying to waste money?
  567. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: nop
  568. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> np
  569. # [14:57] <timeless_mbp> MikeSmith: tsk
  570. # [14:59] <timeless_mbp> is there a negotiated rate for the hilton?
  571. # [15:00] <timeless_mbp> oh, no, only for the other one
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  579. # [15:12] <annevk> MikeSmith, when are we publishing?
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  581. # [15:13] <annevk> MikeSmith, Ms2ger found a bug in html5-diff that I can fix
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  583. # [15:13] <annevk> MikeSmith, but I guess I need a date
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  588. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> we are publishing as soon as our webmaster is able to get stuff in place
  589. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> and comm team can do the announcement thing
  590. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> annevk: ↑
  591. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> what's the bug?
  592. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> I can fix it in place
  593. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> if you give me a diff
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  596. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> or if you check in a fix i will make a diff and apply it to the WD
  597. # [15:27] <annevk> MikeSmith, if you can remove the line <li><code>s</code>
  598. # [15:28] <annevk> MikeSmith, <s> was mentioned both in changed and absent elements, it should be removed from absent
  599. # [15:28] <antti_s> hey, are there any thoughts about bringing in localization for eg. type="numbers" and type="date"s?
  600. # [15:29] <annevk> that's a UA feature
  601. # [15:29] <annevk> the format defined in the specification is for submission and the server only
  602. # [15:31] <hsivonen> FWIW, UA-side localization has the same problem as trying to localize the display format of <time>
  603. # [15:31] <annevk> MikeSmith, gotta go now, but it's the line "<li><code>s</code>" afaik
  604. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, got it
  605. # [15:31] <hsivonen> if you go to a U.S. English site and see a number field that says "2,000" what does it mean?
  606. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> have already checked in the change to the WD
  607. # [15:31] <annevk> MikeSmith, great thanks
  608. # [15:31] <hsivonen> does it mean two thousand in the site's locale?
  609. # [15:31] <annevk> MikeSmith, ttyl
  610. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> cheers
  611. # [15:32] <hsivonen> or 2 in the UA's locale?
  612. # [15:32] <annevk> hsivonen, I think we should base UA localization on the document language
  613. # [15:32] <annevk> hsivonen, rather than the user language
  614. # [15:32] <hsivonen> annevk: so UAs would need a database of number formats associated with all existing language tags?
  615. # [15:33] <annevk> yeah
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  617. # [15:34] <hsivonen> OTOH, for a date picker it would be OK to display the month name in the user's language as a word, since there'd be no ambiguity
  618. # [15:34] <antti_s> ehh... there still might be a need to input a date in an arbitrary format that is not the same as the document's language
  619. # [15:35] <hsivonen> antti_s: the expected UI for input type=date is a date picker
  620. # [15:35] <hsivonen> with date pickers there's the issue of starting weeks on Sunday vs. Monday
  621. # [15:36] <antti_s> hsivonen: so the date format used after selecting the date is a browser vendor's problem
  622. # [15:36] <antti_s> used/displayed
  623. # [15:36] <hsivonen> input type=week uses ISO weeks, but input type=date for en-US could conceivable use Sunday-based week layout
  624. # [15:37] <hsivonen> antti_s: the date format communicated between the browser and the site is always YYYY-MM-DD
  625. # [15:37] <hsivonen> antti_s: browsers are allowed to compete on how they render it to the users
  626. # [15:38] <antti_s> hsivonen: ok, 10-4 :)
  627. # [15:38] <antti_s> hsivonen: should the similar approach be used also on type=numbers
  628. # [15:39] <hsivonen> antti_s: see Opera for how type=date is supposed to work (except it should be prettier than in Opera)
  629. # [15:39] <antti_s> hsivonen: currently it bugs me that using commas as decimal separators does not work, apparently because of the sanitization algorithm
  630. # [15:39] <hsivonen> antti_s: the UA is allowed to expose a decimal comma to the user as long as a decimal point is used between the browser and the server
  631. # [15:40] * hsivonen wishes all countries just standardized on a decimal point so we could get rid of this gratuitous incompatibility
  632. # [15:40] <antti_s> hsivonen: ok, thanks a much, this was really valuable information (that i didn't seem to find myself from the specs) :)
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  638. # [15:56] <antti_s> hsivonen: can you give any pointers to where i should look up information related to this UA/datepicker/decimal-separator stuff?
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  642. # [16:11] <hsivonen> antti_s: the rendering constrains are pretty much what's said in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-input-element-as-domain-specific-widgets
  643. # [16:13] <hsivonen> antti_s: also see the rightmost column in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-input-type-keywords
  644. # [16:13] <hsivonen> antti_s: the spec isn't particularly clear on what's allowed here, because readers are supposed to know that the spec doesn't try to prescribe browser UI
  645. # [16:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: the spec could be clearer here
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  647. # [16:15] <antti_s> hsivonen: thank you, very much appreciated. i'll look in to those.
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  649. # [16:19] <hsivonen> antti_s: filed a bug as http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11107
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  693. # [18:26] <karlcow> I wonder if bugzilla recycled the id of deleted issues which were initially created as spam. (not very important though, just curious)
  694. # [18:26] * Quits: akamike (~akamike@94-193-106-14.zone7.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: akamike)
  695. # [18:28] * Philip` is getting tired of the bug spam being posted to public-html
  696. # [18:28] <Philip`> Oh, Julian already said that
  697. # [18:28] * jgraham filters the bugs into a different folder
  698. # [18:29] <jgraham> I actually think this setup is much better than it was before
  699. # [18:30] <jgraham> Although of course it would be even better with no spam
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  702. # [18:31] * karlcow doesn't move his mails in folders
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  704. # [18:32] <karlcow> hmm not exactly true
  705. # [18:33] <karlcow> procmail is moving all my mails into monthly dated space folders. /2010/09/, /2010/10/, etc.
  706. # [18:34] <jgraham> Eep
  707. # [18:34] <jgraham> How do you live with that?
  708. # [18:34] <karlcow> then I create dynamic/smart folders
  709. # [18:34] <jmartelatpapirux> karlcow, how do you do so?
  710. # [18:34] <karlcow> because my contexts evolve little by little
  711. # [18:34] <karlcow> so I destroy/create dynamic folders
  712. # [18:34] <jgraham> karlcow: Presumably those are limited to a single client though?
  713. # [18:35] * jgraham mostly filters by mailing list into honest-to-goodness imap folders
  714. # [18:35] <karlcow> Apple Mail with an imap server :)
  715. # [18:36] <jmartelatpapirux> Oh, my!
  716. # [18:37] <karlcow> I have done this organization for… 3 years now (I think), I have never been happier. A lot, lot better. One mail can be in many different contexts
  717. # [18:39] <jgraham> Maybe you are just ahppier by coincidence and if you used the old mail classification scheme you would be even happier still :)
  718. # [18:40] <jmartelatpapirux> Coincidences do simply not exist.
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  720. # [18:41] <karlcow> I have mostly all my mails since around 1991 (except those I have erase by choice or by mistake), and dated space is a metaphor which suits me.
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  722. # [18:43] <karlcow> it has another benefits, it limits the number of files on the filesystems by folder. The 500,000+ emails are nicely distributed
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  746. # [19:35] <jmartelatpapirux> Au revoir
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  754. # [19:53] <TabAtkins_> Philip`: I *love* seeing all the mail. What I don't love is that almost all of the anon mail from the W3C spec is spam. We should just turn that one off.
  755. # [19:54] <TabAtkins_> gsnedders: I did the IR with 6 because I thought I had to use a public build. There was some discussion about using more recent builds, but I didn't see anything about changing the requirements written in the spec, so I went with what the spec said.
  756. # [19:58] <TabAtkins_> And 6 was the public build a few weeks ago.
  757. # [20:01] <Philip`> TabAtkins_: How can you tell it's from the W3C spec?
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  759. # [20:01] <TabAtkins_> Philip`: They all have the section of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#top
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  761. # [20:01] <TabAtkins_> I thought that the w3c version always did that?
  762. # [20:02] * TabAtkins_ might be wrong.
  763. # [20:02] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  764. # [20:02] <TabAtkins_> In any case, flagging anything from #top specially so it needs moderation before hitting the list would fix almost all of the spam problems.
  765. # [20:02] * Philip` has no idea
  766. # [20:02] <TabAtkins_> Alternately, just not allowing bugs to be filed on #top.
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  769. # [20:07] <TabAtkins_> Philip`: Yeah, there's no #top in the whatwg copy, and the w3c comments form explicitly indicates its id as "top" in a hidden input.
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  783. # [20:56] <jgraham> Isn't 80% spam considerably better than email in general?
  784. # [20:56] <jgraham> Of course no one has tried to use it for really maliciuos purposes yet
  785. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> If you don't account for spam filtering, yes.
  786. # [20:57] <jgraham> (and I agree it should be fixed, in case there is any doubt)
  787. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> 80% spam actually ending up in anyone's mailbox is a lot worse than e-mail in general, I hope.
  788. # [20:57] <jgraham> Sure
  789. # [20:58] <jgraham> One could try using the same spam filtering here
  790. # [20:58] <jgraham> If one wanted a complex technical solution
  791. # [20:58] <Hixie> we reduced the spam on the whatwg form by having some JS count the spaces and stuff
  792. # [20:58] <Hixie> we could do the same here if that would help
  793. # [20:59] <Hixie> i just tried a quick hack
  794. # [20:59] <othermaciej> I did notice that many of the spam bugs do not contain a space
  795. # [20:59] <Hixie> that didn't have JS
  796. # [20:59] <Hixie> but i can add JS
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  798. # [21:00] <jgraham> I was actually just going to suggest some "minimal useful comment" metric
  799. # [21:01] <jgraham> as a simple technical solution
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  801. # [21:04] <Hixie> i'll hack something in
  802. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> I once had a comment rejected for being too short (in the WHATWG version), so don't we have such a thing already?
  803. # [21:04] <Hixie> see above, teh w3c one doesn't have that code
  804. # [21:05] <TabAtkins_> Anything to stop the "asdfasdf"-style comments would be greatly welcome. It would be extra awesome if it silently discarded messages that super-failed the metric you used, to discourage just altering the message to have more asdf. (Alerting about the message when it merely somewhat fails the metric is good, though.)
  805. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> I think you should always alert.
  806. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> If it's a real human doing it, it's unlikely to be a big problem.
  807. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> Unless we get hardcore vandalism problems.
  808. # [21:07] <TabAtkins_> In which case, reverting to the previous hurdle of "have to email the group or submit a bug yourself" is sufficient.
  809. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> Yes.
  810. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> But that's not necessary yet.
  811. # [21:09] * jgraham wonders how far along the path of "determine if a given string is likely a valid sentence in English" current AI/NLP will get you
  812. # [21:09] <jgraham> Not as a very practical solution but because it seems interesting
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  814. # [21:10] <Philip`> You could probably get a long way just with a spellchecker
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  816. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> I forgive Google Safe Browsing for all the false positives I've ever seen from it.
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  818. # [21:11] <Moo-_-> jgraham: just sample all text from digg.com and match against it. if it matches it is *not* valid english :)
  819. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> I just got a warning for a site I administer named bridgeshul.com, and indeed . . . <iframe src="http://eftpsid0342943.ru/contacts/s3" width=1 height=1></iframe><iframe src="http://eftpsid0343233.ru/contacts/s3"></iframe>
  820. # [21:11] <jgraham> Philip`: That was actually where my train of thought started
  821. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> Maybe I should switch to a host that doesn't require you to use FTP to administer the site.
  822. # [21:12] <jgraham> Submit to a webservice that returns the fraction of the tokens that are recognised english words
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  824. # [21:14] * Philip` wonders what fraction the HTML5 spec would score on such a test
  825. # [21:16] <Hixie> ok i've updated the form, give it a few minutes to regen and commit
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  871. # [23:10] <hober> I'm pretty sure Mark will laugh about this eventually http://twitter.com/hober/statuses/27964564498
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  884. # [23:58] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Not an especially high priority, but there is a semicolon missing here: http://www.w3.org/Style/css2-updates/css2/changes.html#q457
  885. # [23:58] <Hixie> i don't edit that file anymore
  886. # [23:58] <Hixie> TabAtkins_ might though
  887. # [23:59] <GPHemsley> oh... perhaps that should be made clearer in the header? :)
  888. # Session Close: Thu Oct 21 00:00:00 2010

The end :)