/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-10-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 22 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:10] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yeah, but years of experience tell me that by the time I get close enough to the photos (or more normally, they get close enough to me), it's August and I don't care any more
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  19. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> jgraham, why is it much harder than intra-browser sync?
  20. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> The stuff you're syncing is essentially the same cross-browser, no?
  21. # [00:33] <Hixie> it's hard for intra-browser too
  22. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> Well, yes, but clearly that's not *too* hard.
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  24. # [00:36] <Hixie> it's difficulty^N harder to get N browsers to do it in a compatible way
  25. # [00:36] <Hixie> (ok i pulled that out of my behind, but the idea is sound)
  26. # [00:37] <Hixie> it's even harder than normal since the user benefit is low so it's unlikely anyone will care enough to write a spec, etc8
  27. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> On the other hand, if this were widely supported, browsers could scrap their code for importing all this stuff from other browsers, which they currently all have to write anyway.
  28. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> And that's surely even more annoying and fragile, because they have to reverse-engineer the other browser's storage formats.
  29. # [00:39] <Hixie> *shrug*
  30. # [00:39] * aroben|afk is now known as aroben
  31. # [00:40] <Hixie> write a spec, get browsers to implement
  32. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> I know the procedure.
  33. # [00:40] <Hixie> :-)
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  60. # [02:15] <GPHemsley> hsivonen: Hey, your validator sploded on me
  61. # [02:16] <GPHemsley> "Internal Error: Oops. That was not supposed to happen. A bug manifested itself in the application internals. Unable to continue. Sorry. The admin was notified."
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  72. # [02:42] <MikeSmith> well, that's weird
  73. # [02:42] <MikeSmith> the "html5" twitter account quit working around end of September
  74. # [02:42] <Hixie> wohay, someone finally noticed!
  75. # [02:42] <MikeSmith> because I do not have it set up to do Oauth
  76. # [02:43] <Hixie> you are the first person to notice
  77. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> well, I noticed
  78. # [02:43] <Hixie> well, second
  79. # [02:43] <Hixie> i noticed when it broke
  80. # [02:43] <Hixie> (it=the whatwg twitter stuff)
  81. # [02:43] <Hixie> and didn't do anything about it because nobody complained
  82. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah I mean the "html5" one -- I guess the whatwg one is the same thing
  83. # [02:43] <Hixie> yup
  84. # [02:44] <Hixie> i took it as a sign that twitter was pointless
  85. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> I think I actually just copied your script when I set up the "html5" one
  86. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> heh
  87. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> amen
  88. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> for this kind of stuff at least
  89. # [02:44] <Hixie> all i've ever seen on twitter is people bitching
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  91. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> twitter is now my means for exploring languages I don't speak
  92. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> it's useful for that at least
  93. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> and I've switched to only tweeting in languages that I don't actually speak nor understand well yet
  94. # [02:45] <Hixie> heh
  95. # [02:46] * Philip` encountered http://twitlonger.com/ today, which seems quite absurd
  96. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> I figure, if I'm going to tweet, I might as well learn a little about it each tiem
  97. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie: anyway, what I was saying was weird was that an "html5" tweet did just get posted
  98. # [02:47] <MikeSmith> in spite of me doing nothing to "fix" the no-oauth "problem"
  99. # [02:47] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/#!/html5/status/28355466520
  100. # [02:47] <Hixie> um
  101. # [02:47] <Hixie> odd
  102. # [02:47] <MikeSmith> so, I don't know why that one went through
  103. # [02:47] <MikeSmith> not that I care so much
  104. # [02:47] <MikeSmith> just… odd
  105. # [02:47] <Hixie> o_O
  106. # [02:47] <Hixie> that _is_ odd
  107. # [02:48] <MikeSmith> Philip`: the better way to twit longer is to use Chinese
  108. # [02:49] <MikeSmith> maybe you heard me say this already, but if you tweet in English, it takes 2.5 to 3 times as much characters as when you tweet in Chinese
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  110. # [02:49] <Hixie> the better way to tweet longer is to use buzz
  111. # [02:50] <MikeSmith> what's buzz? :)
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  113. # [02:51] <MikeSmith> Philip`: what does http://www.twitlonger.com/ actually do?
  114. # [02:51] * Joins: WHATWG (~apermanen@67-134-147-135.dia.static.qwest.net)
  115. # [02:51] <MikeSmith> posts multiple tweets in serial?
  116. # [02:52] <Philip`> It posts the first n characters of your message and then a link to a page that has the rest of it
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  122. # [02:54] <MikeSmith> ah
  123. # [02:55] <MikeSmith> well, big whoop
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  125. # [02:55] <MikeSmith> site should then be called "howtotwitlongerforthetotallyclueless"
  126. # [02:55] <MikeSmith> or something
  127. # [02:55] <MikeSmith> but I guess that was your point
  128. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> absure
  129. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> absurd
  130. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> dammit
  131. # [02:56] * Philip` always bears in mind the words of our now Prime Minister, "The trouble with Twitter, the instantness of it - too many twits might make a twat."
  132. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> I almost always type "absure" instead of "absurd"
  133. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> heh
  134. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> did dude really say that?!
  135. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> that is gold
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  137. # [02:57] <Philip`> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8176194.stm
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  139. # [02:59] <MikeSmith> absurd is "hurt" in Welsh
  140. # [03:00] <MikeSmith> järjetön
  141. # [03:00] <MikeSmith> in Finnish
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  143. # [03:00] <MikeSmith> which doesn't quite meet my "easier to type" requirement
  144. # [03:01] <MikeSmith> there's no really good recognizable cognate for "absurd"
  145. # [03:01] <MikeSmith> except for "absurd" that is i
  146. # [03:02] <MikeSmith> most European languages just seem to have some variation of "absurd" or "absurd" itself
  147. # [03:02] <MikeSmith> I guess because it came from Latin
  148. # [03:03] <MikeSmith> RIDICULARIUS
  149. # [03:03] <MikeSmith> now, that's a great word
  150. # [03:03] <MikeSmith> way better than just plan "ridiculous"
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  155. # [03:08] <MikeSmith> "surreal" is "swrrealaidd" in Welsh
  156. # [03:08] <MikeSmith> even _looks_ surreal
  157. # [03:08] <MikeSmith> Welsh is a trip
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  159. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> Google Translate gives "epätodellinen" for Finnish translation of "surreal"
  160. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> which actually seems to be more like "unreal"
  161. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ep%C3%A4todellinen
  162. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> epä- +‎ todellinen
  163. # [03:12] <MikeSmith> epä- = "un-"
  164. # [03:15] * MikeSmith wonders if gsnedders speaks Scottish Gaelic at all
  165. # [03:16] <MikeSmith> Wiktionary is a great source for examining translations for single words
  166. # [03:16] <MikeSmith> e.g., http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/surreal
  167. # [03:17] <MikeSmith> but you need to set the Visibility > Show translations option
  168. # [03:18] <MikeSmith> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/os-fh%C3%ACreach#Scottish_Gaelic
  169. # [03:18] <MikeSmith> os-fhìreach = surreal
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  201. # [04:15] <robman> afternoon all
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  203. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> hey robman
  204. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> how's the weather in Australia?
  205. # [04:17] * MikeSmith misses it already
  206. # [04:17] <robman> sunny and hot
  207. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> nice
  208. # [04:17] <robman> you back in japan?
  209. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> yup
  210. # [04:17] <robman> noice
  211. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> at home but heading out for lunch soon
  212. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> with a friend here who works for Mozilla
  213. # [04:18] <robman> yum...have fun
  214. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> so I got to schlep off to the other side of town
  215. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> I wish they'd move their office somewhere more convenient for me :)
  216. # [04:19] <robman> schlep is a word that's appearing in my life more and more nowadays
  217. # [04:19] <MikeSmith> heh
  218. # [04:19] <MikeSmith> well, that sounds bad
  219. # [04:20] <robman> i was lugging way too many laptops and a tripod all over Seoul - I feel shorter now
  220. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  221. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> how did that meeting go, btw?
  222. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> the AR thing, right?
  223. # [04:20] <robman> really productive
  224. # [04:20] <robman> yah
  225. # [04:20] <robman> very intereting bunch of people
  226. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> ETRI people were there?
  227. # [04:20] <robman> yos
  228. # [04:20] <robman> and ogc
  229. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> great
  230. # [04:21] <robman> and khronos
  231. # [04:21] <robman> etc
  232. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> oh
  233. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> Khronos is a big plus for sure
  234. # [04:21] <robman> Neil was awesome...he really listened and engaged
  235. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> great
  236. # [04:21] <robman> wants to evangelise a common time system across all sensor related things to the khronos members
  237. # [04:21] <robman> would be great for sensor fusion/etc
  238. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> interesting
  239. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> did WebGL come up at all?
  240. # [04:22] <robman> aboslutely
  241. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> neat
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  243. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> minutes available anywhere yet?
  244. # [04:22] <robman> and he's really keen to work with the w3c folks on improving the composition model
  245. # [04:22] <robman> yeah...holon
  246. # [04:23] <MikeSmith> what would "improving the composition model" mean in practice, I wonder?
  247. # [04:23] <robman> general notes here http://www.perey.com/ARStandardsMeetingOutputs.html and his notes here http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/Khronos_Standards_for_Mobile_AR.pdf
  248. # [04:23] * MikeSmith takes a gander
  249. # [04:24] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  250. # [04:25] <robman> MikeSmith when you get a chance please checkout this too http://www.slideshare.net/robman/patterns-of-interest-iswar-seoul-2010
  251. # [04:25] <MikeSmith> will do
  252. # [04:25] <robman> i'd especially like to discuss slides 18-20 with you 8)
  253. # [04:25] <MikeSmith> hai
  254. # [04:26] <MikeSmith> man
  255. # [04:26] <MikeSmith> this whole presentation looks pretty interesting actually
  256. # [04:26] <robman> aw shux
  257. # [04:27] <MikeSmith> I have personally been away from this stuff for a while
  258. # [04:27] <MikeSmith> professionally I mean
  259. # [04:27] <MikeSmith> I don't remember if I told you that before W3C I did work mostly for the mobile market
  260. # [04:27] <MikeSmith> product dev
  261. # [04:27] <MikeSmith> backend stuff
  262. # [04:27] <MikeSmith> and client stuff
  263. # [04:27] <MikeSmith> also
  264. # [04:27] <robman> cool
  265. # [04:28] <robman> i gotta run to a meeting...have a great lunch and lets chat later
  266. # [04:28] <robman> boi
  267. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> in your slides, what are "triggers"?
  268. # [04:29] <MikeSmith> eh?
  269. # [04:29] <MikeSmith> I don't know "boi" either
  270. # [04:29] <MikeSmith> acronym?
  271. # [04:30] <robman> sorry...that was bye
  272. # [04:30] <robman> 8)
  273. # [04:30] <robman> ill bbak later
  274. # [04:31] <MikeSmith> k
  275. # [04:31] <MikeSmith> I gotta go soon too
  276. # [04:32] <MikeSmith> but wanted to say you might want to consider coming to the Internet of Things conference in Tokyo at the end of November
  277. # [04:32] <MikeSmith> I helped out with review of some papers for that
  278. # [04:33] * karlcow wishes he could go to this conf, but can't go out of Canada before Jan
  279. # [04:33] <MikeSmith> too bad for you karlcow
  280. # [04:33] <MikeSmith> I hope you learned your lesson
  281. # [04:33] <karlcow> living in Japan too long? :p
  282. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> I meant how you tried to smuggle your crack pipe through customs
  283. # [04:35] <karlcow> hehe. himitsu
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  293. # [05:55] <wirepair> i am amazed at how many parsers insecurely handle external xml entities
  294. # [05:55] * wirepair just found *another* bug in an RSS reader...
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  343. # [09:54] <zcorpan> Hixie: maybe ie's way of dealing with <meta http-equiv=x-ua-compatible> is screwing you over in your navigation tests?
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  349. # [10:13] <Hixie> zcorpan: how so?
  350. # [10:14] <Hixie> i mean, i don't have it set
  351. # [10:15] <Hixie> and i don't see why what i'm testing would be relevant to that
  352. # [10:15] <Hixie> surely it'll be the same in all the modes...
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  355. # [10:17] <zcorpan> Hixie: i don't know how it works, but maybe ie is first parsing looking for the meta, and then reparsing if it didn't find one
  356. # [10:18] <Hixie> i doubt it, that'd be a perf nightmare
  357. # [10:18] <Hixie> also the timings don't fit that hypothesis (some of the tests have timestamps)
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  359. # [10:19] <zcorpan> ok
  360. # [10:20] <zcorpan> (iirc ie reparses when turning on designMode, which is also perf nightmare but doesn't happen as often)
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  367. # [10:34] <zcorpan> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript_typed_arrays - does gecko support binary messages in websockets?
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  369. # [10:37] <annevk> I don't think so
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  375. # [10:44] <zcorpan> http://yfrog.com/f/2fejgrj/
  376. # [10:45] <annevk> old news
  377. # [10:45] <annevk> but still funny
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  381. # [10:55] <annevk> jgraham, btw, I meant "WHATTF" last night
  382. # [10:55] <annevk> not sure about action man and bureaucracy man, but that sounds fun too :)
  383. # [10:56] <annevk> also, another day, still not published
  384. # [10:57] <annevk> Mike is still flying around?
  385. # [10:57] <jgraham> That's superman
  386. # [10:58] <jgraham> Although I guess Mike might hve an alter-ego
  387. # [10:58] <jgraham> Would explain a lot
  388. # [10:59] <zcorpan> xml-stylesheet will be published 28th
  389. # [11:00] <annevk> as REC?
  390. # [11:00] <zcorpan> yeah
  391. # [11:00] <zcorpan> my first REC :)
  392. # [11:00] <annevk> with how many conforming implementations?
  393. # [11:01] <zcorpan> dunno
  394. # [11:01] <annevk> congrats anyway
  395. # [11:01] <annevk> I don't have any RECs
  396. # [11:04] <zcorpan> hmm validator.nu still doesn't validate xml-stylesheet
  397. # [11:07] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ^
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  405. # [11:15] <zcorpan> seems like all tests in http://simon.html5.org/test/xml/xml-stylesheet/parsing/ give bogus errors in validator.nu
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  409. # [11:22] <hsivonen> zcorpan: hmm. I wonder if MikeSmith landed the code...
  410. # [11:22] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the code is there
  411. # [11:25] <hsivonen> zcorpan: looks like the XML parser is doing something very bogus
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  413. # [11:27] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'm sorry. this XML parser is very, very sad
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  415. # [11:28] <hsivonen> some day, I should write my own XML parser, with enough 5
  416. # [11:29] <zcorpan> did you switch xml parser at some point? it worked when mike was implementing xml-stylesheet
  417. # [11:29] <hsivonen> zcorpan: no, I think I haven't changed anything about the XML parser
  418. # [11:30] <zcorpan> ok. weird
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  420. # [11:32] <hsivonen> whoa. "unless you cannot accept LGPL in your environment"
  421. # [11:33] <hsivonen> why on earth do the subclipse developers bother to maintain installation options for people who aren't OK with LGPL?
  422. # [11:36] <hsivonen> whoa! I just saw a signed Eclipse plug-in for the first time. Seemed to be a self-signed cert, though.
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  425. # [11:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I haven't touched the XML parser since April 2009
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  430. # [11:46] <hsivonen> zcorpan: are you sure you've tested without the XML declaration before?
  431. # [11:46] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the parser seems to be bogus
  432. # [11:47] <hsivonen> zcorpan: if the first four bytes are <?xm, it expects it to be the start of an XML declaration and it expect the XML declaration to be within the first 64 bytes
  433. # [11:47] <hsivonen> both expectations are thoroughly bogus, of course
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  435. # [11:49] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i'm pretty sure i tested without xml decl. but maybe mike's setup injected an xml decl or something
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  439. # [12:10] <annevk> http://arewefastyet.com/ interesting
  440. # [12:10] <annevk> I wonder how Opera compares
  441. # [12:11] <jgraham> annevk: That seems quite simple to find out :)
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  443. # [12:12] * jgraham wonders how numbers inside the browser compare to standalone shell numbers
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  446. # [12:26] <annevk> Hixie, http://tantek.com/2010/294/t7/html5-whatwg-stopped-twitter-required-oauth
  447. # [12:28] <benschwarz> Hixie: P.Irish asked me to log here. Hello :)
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  451. # [12:41] <zcorpan> hsivonen: if i add an xml decl, i still don't get the xml-stylesheet pi validated (no errors for a bogus pi)
  452. # [12:42] <zcorpan> http://validator.nu/?doc=data%3Aapplication%2Fxml%2C%253C%253Fxml%2520version%253D%271.0%27%253F%253E%250D%250A%253C%253Fxml-stylesheet%2520xyz%253F%253E%250D%250A%253Chtml%2520xmlns%253D%27http%253A%252F%252Fwww.w3.org%252F1999%252Fxhtml%27%253E%250D%250A%253Chead%253E%250D%250A%253Ctitle%253E%253C%252Ftitle%253E%250D%250A%253C%252Fhead%253E%250D%250A%253Cbody%253E%250D%250A%253Cp%253E%253C%252Fp%253E%250D%250A%253C%252
  453. # [12:42] <zcorpan> 252Fhtml%253E
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  462. # [12:49] <hsivonen> wiki.whatwg.org times out for me
  463. # [12:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I think the data: URL you pasted isn't complete
  464. # [12:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: (Can't contact the database server: Lost connection to MySQL server at 'reading initial communication packet', system error: 110 (database.wiki.whatwg.org))
  465. # [12:50] <zcorpan> yeah, it got split to two messages
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  472. # [13:06] <annevk> I wonder if there exists more of this stuff: http://www.aminutewithbrendan.com/pages/20101018
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  474. # [13:10] <jgraham> What stuff?
  475. # [13:11] <annevk> relatively short podcasts on browser stuff
  476. # [13:11] <espadrine> aminutewithbrendan is full of it
  477. # [13:11] <espadrine> (although it is javascript-oriented)
  478. # [13:11] <annevk> sure, I'm subscribed to that one and listen to most of it
  479. # [13:13] <espadrine> crockford has a series of talks going on, but we can't call them short
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  488. # [13:33] <jgraham> So listening to those has given me an appreciation for one thing; if you set the volume on one <audio> element all other unplayed elements should start at the same volume by default. Or something
  489. # [13:34] <jgraham> A UI issue of course
  490. # [13:42] <annevk> and not necessarily true
  491. # [13:42] <annevk> as it depends on the stream
  492. # [13:44] * Philip` would appreciate his browser not automaticall downloading many megabytes of data when loading the front page of that site, and instead waiting until he clicked 'play' on each <audio>
  493. # [13:45] <Philip`> s//y/
  494. # [13:46] <espadrine> The volume of one stream should not modify that of other streams on the same page, but it would be quite useful to have the browser remember the volumes of each stream
  495. # [13:46] <espadrine> when we go back to that page later on.
  496. # [13:47] <espadrine> I mean, it could be localStorage-ed, but that's something we inherently want for all media elements.
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  500. # [13:57] <hsivonen> this XML parser is full of sadness
  501. # [13:58] <jgraham> The problem is I start one, listen to it (at reduced volume) start another and have to reduce the volume again
  502. # [13:58] <jgraham> Changing my system volume affects other applications
  503. # [13:58] <jgraham> I could probably futz about with per-application volume controls but its a lot of complexity
  504. # [13:59] <jgraham> and, on the web, the intrinsic loudness of different sound clips seems highly likely to change between pages
  505. # [14:00] <jgraham> due to different recording and so on
  506. # [14:00] <jgraham> But might be more constant on a single page
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  508. # [14:02] <hsivonen> this total bogosity of the XML parser with <?xml-stylesheet hasn't come to my attention before
  509. # [14:02] <hsivonen> I guess most people use the XML declaration
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  511. # [14:08] <Philip`> jgraham: Seems like the OS's job to make per-application volume controls simple
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  513. # [14:08] <Philip`> (I think Vista does that already)
  514. # [14:09] <jgraham> Philip`: In the case of the web it's not clear that will work, as I said
  515. # [14:09] <jgraham> In any case I probably want per-tab volume controls
  516. # [14:09] <jgraham> if we are doing it that way
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  520. # [14:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan: http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fsimon.html5.org%2Ftest%2Fxml%2Fxml-stylesheet%2Fparsing%2F001.xml
  521. # [14:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I hope the parser sucks less now when viewed as a black box. The source code got uglier.
  522. # [14:21] <hsivonen> It seems to me that when a piece of software is bad enough, patching it makes the code look even worse
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  524. # [14:22] <hsivonen> Ælfred2 is so, so sad. Too bad it's not easy to notice on surface before it's too late.
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  533. # [14:42] <zcorpan> hsivonen: cool, thanks
  534. # [14:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks for reporting
  535. # [14:45] <zcorpan> hsivonen: now the Show Source feature is broken instead :)
  536. # [14:45] <hsivonen> aargh
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  539. # [14:50] <jgraham> Dear lazyirc. I have a file with some lines in it. I want to provide each line of the file as the command line argument to a program. Is there some clever way to do that in the (bash) shell?
  540. # [14:50] <jgraham> So if the file looks like
  541. # [14:50] <jgraham> A
  542. # [14:50] <jgraham> B
  543. # [14:50] <jgraham> C
  544. # [14:50] <jgraham> I want to run
  545. # [14:50] <jgraham> foo A B C
  546. # [14:51] <jgraham> where foo is the executable
  547. # [14:54] <jgraham> Oh, maybe cat and backticks is enough if there are no special characters
  548. # [14:55] <jgraham> And xargs is needed otherwise
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  550. # [15:00] <Workshiva> Backticks make me sad
  551. # [15:00] <Workshiva> $() all the way
  552. # [15:11] <jgraham> The shell makes me sad
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  554. # [15:13] <annevk> Python
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  560. # [15:37] <annevk> Pro tip: when disabling Bluetooth, do not disable wireless instead
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  562. # [15:37] <Philip`> perl -ne'`program "$_"`' lines.txt
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  564. # [15:40] <Philip`> Oh, I misread the question
  565. # [15:42] <Philip`> In that case I suppose it's more like perl -e'chomp(@_=<>); system("program", @_)' lines.txt which will incidentally handle special characters in the lines
  566. # [15:43] <Philip`> but that code doesn't use enough quote characters :-(
  567. # [15:43] <Philip`> (Not enough to be pleasantly confusing, at least)
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  607. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about the issue that Simon mentioned, I am not injecting an xml declaration or anything like that
  608. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> but I can take a look later and see if i might be able to figure out what's wrong
  609. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> maybe I am otherwise just doing something stupid in that code
  610. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> wrong assumption or something
  611. # [17:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: your code isn't wrong
  612. # [17:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the XML parser is wrong
  613. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> ok
  614. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> oh
  615. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> well, that's not good
  616. # [17:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: are you sure you and Simon didn't test a W3C instance that runs the perl preprocessor on the input?
  617. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> no
  618. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> definitely not
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  622. # [18:00] <hsivonen> well, I don't have an explanation why you haven't seen this before
  623. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> whatever code I had running, it should still be running at http://www.w3.org/html/check
  624. # [18:00] <hsivonen> but the XML parser is definitely broken and has been unmodified for over a year
  625. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> I see
  626. # [18:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: your instance shows the same bug
  627. # [18:01] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/html/check?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fsimon.html5.org%2Ftest%2Fxml%2Fxml-stylesheet%2Fparsing%2F002.xml
  628. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> well, that's weird
  629. # [18:01] <hsivonen> I'll have dinner and then I'll try to fix the XML parser again. more correctly this time hopefully
  630. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> actually I was not running Simon's test from that side
  631. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> I was using direct input
  632. # [18:01] <hsivonen> though I'm not planning on fixing it totally correctly
  633. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> ok
  634. # [18:01] <hsivonen> it's too broken for that
  635. # [18:02] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: direct input doesn't sniff the bytes for encoding, so a different code path applies
  636. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> ah
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  645. # [18:19] <annevk> complained about lack of response http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2010OctDec/0007.html
  646. # [18:19] <annevk> apparently my last email was end of August
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  654. # [18:33] <cryzed> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=141 -> Could you guys take care of this? Or are you planning on dropping BeautifulSoup support altogether?
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  657. # [18:41] * hsivonen removes UTF-32 support from the XML side of Validator.nu
  658. # [18:41] <annevk> yay
  659. # [18:42] <annevk> the fight encoding proliferation front salutes you
  660. # [18:43] <hsivonen> annevk: did you notice the Gecko UTF-32 removal bug?
  661. # [18:45] <annevk> yup
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  673. # [18:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan: http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fsimon.html5.org%2Ftest%2Fxml%2Fxml-stylesheet%2Fparsing%2F002.xml&showsource=yes
  674. # [18:56] <hsivonen> now fixed for real, I hope
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  677. # [19:00] <annevk> geez
  678. # [19:00] <annevk> gmail is getting so slow
  679. # [19:00] <annevk> it's annoying
  680. # [19:00] <annevk> maybe webapps are not it after all
  681. # [19:01] <annevk> constantly "still working" when I try to get through my labeled email
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  694. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> annevk: hsivonen using Zimbra
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  697. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> saucy is sähäkkä http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/s%C3%A4h%C3%A4kk%C3%A4#Finnish
  698. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> comparative sähäkämpi, superlative sähäkin or sähäköin
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  706. # [19:55] <hsivonen> abarth: b.m.o got another duplicate of http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10427
  707. # [19:56] <hsivonen> abarth: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=605373
  708. # [19:56] <hsivonen> has WebKit gotten duplicates of this bug?
  709. # [19:56] <hsivonen> abarth: it might be worthwhile to check what exactly the old WebKit tree builder did
  710. # [19:57] <abarth> i don't think we've gotten reports of this
  711. # [19:57] <abarth> but the page is obviously broken in webkit now too
  712. # [20:04] <annevk> http://twitter.com/devongovett/status/28426814227 -- isn't it layout that's slow?
  713. # [20:05] <abarth> dromeo tests dom speed
  714. # [20:08] <hsivonen> testing layout speed is *hard*
  715. # [20:08] <hsivonen> it's probably a bad idea to publish a layout speed benchmark if bz hasn't reviewed it
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  721. # [20:18] <AryehGregor> So as of yesterday, looks like Firefox beats Chrome on Sunspider: http://arewefastyet.com/
  722. # [20:18] <AryehGregor> Very slightly.
  723. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> Awesome. I just wish we had some more benchmarks up there, and Opera and IE9 were on them too.
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  747. # [21:29] <jgraham> People who say that javascript isn't slow are just making the wrong type of application. For a javascript game or audio analysis or image progessing or something, javascript speed is still a limiting factor
  748. # [21:29] <jgraham> Of course for other types of application DOM is the limiting factor
  749. # [21:30] <jgraham> But it is often pure scripting performance that limits the kind of applications that people are only just starting to write in javascript
  750. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> How does JS compare to something like Java these days on standard useless programming benchmarks?
  751. # [21:32] <aho> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=v8&lang2=java
  752. # [21:32] <aho> regex is awesome with v8 :>
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  754. # [21:32] <aho> other than that java is typically 3-8 times faster
  755. # [21:32] <aho> or even over 50 times faster if you do something js is very bad at :>
  756. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> Hmm, so probably still room for improvement.
  757. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> pidigits is horrible for v8.
  758. # [21:33] <aho> garbage collection is probably one of those areas with some room for improvements
  759. # [21:34] <aho> java's gc is very advanced
  760. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> Interesting that memory is about the some.
  761. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> same.
  762. # [21:34] <jgraham> Possibly the implementation of pidigits for the v8 case is very bad
  763. # [21:34] <jgraham> (possibly not of course)
  764. # [21:34] <aho> http://arewefastyet.com/ <- seen that?
  765. # [21:35] <aho> jm is now faster than v8 in sunspider
  766. # [21:35] <jgraham> Needless to say these are not a good way to judge anything
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  768. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> jgraham, they're a decent heuristic.
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  771. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Interesting. It looks like Java doesn't perform much worse than C in time taken, at least for these programs -- median 2x slower -- but it's murdered on memory use.
  772. # [21:36] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Well they probably have the advantage that language authors are unlikely to optimise for these benchmarks specifically
  773. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Yes.
  774. # [21:37] <jgraham> But I think they are all very small problems compared to typical real applications
  775. # [21:38] <Philip`> Performance in real applications is typically limited by bottlenecks, which are very small problems
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  777. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Why don't they include PHP? The site is even written in PHP.
  778. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Also would be cool to see different compilers compared. ICC really murders GCC.
  779. # [21:38] <aho> there is php on another machine
  780. # [21:38] <aho> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=php&lang2=v8
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  782. # [21:39] <jgraham> Philip`: I don't know if that is really true. Sometimes you get quite flat performance profiles where you spend an equal amount of time everywhere
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  784. # [21:40] <jgraham> I mean if you are doing n-body simulations or something then sure it is all inner-loop dominated
  785. # [21:40] <aho> the php version of reverse-complement is sorta silly... it does everything in native functions. there are like 4 functions chained together with do everything :>
  786. # [21:40] <aho> *which
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  788. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> aho, well, that's sensible, isn't it?
  789. # [21:42] <aho> well, it's sorta like having solveThisSpecificProblem function
  790. # [21:42] <aho> you could say the same about the regex stuff though
  791. # [21:42] <aho> .>
  792. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> It's fair to give languages credit for having good general-purpose tools like strtr and strrev and chunk_split.
  793. # [21:43] <aho> just wanted to point out why php does surprisingly well in that particular benchmark .)
  794. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> PHP has a mediocre standard library, but it's written entirely in C, so it deserves benchmark credit for that.
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  796. # [21:44] <jgraham> Hmm, I wonder if the problem with pidigits is the lack of a sensible long integer type in javascript
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  798. # [21:45] <aho> yea, emulating bigint stuff with doubles is sorta clumsy
  799. # [21:45] <aho> but there is no way around that currently
  800. # [21:46] <aho> well, there are ints in most js engines under the hood but there is some drag involved
  801. # [21:46] <aho> bitops for example are always sorta slow
  802. # [21:47] <aho> (i still use xorshift as prng though) :>
  803. # [21:47] <jgraham> I think that is not true anymore since I think they are tested in sunspider :)
  804. # [21:48] <jgraham> I would expect a loop containing bitops to be JITed to native instructions
  805. # [21:48] <aho> jm was always pretty good at doing brainless math in a loop
  806. # [21:49] <aho> it's pretty much the best case for tracing
  807. # [21:50] <aho> eg 6 months ago mandelbrot stuff was about 3 times faster in jm than v8
  808. # [21:52] <aho> either way, i love the js engine wars :)
  809. # [21:52] <aho> (thanks google) :>
  810. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> Thanks Mozilla too.
  811. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> arewefastyet is great.
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  819. # [22:15] * AryehGregor sees this in an EULA: "You may not, in whole or in part: copy, photocopy, reproduce, translate, reverse engineer (with the exception of specific circumstances where such act is permitted by law), derive source code, modify, disassemble, decompile, or create derivative works based on the Program; . . ."
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  821. # [22:15] <AryehGregor> Does that mean that the EULA is admitting that it's not prohibiting reverse-engineering except where it's already illegal anyway?
  822. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> Hmm, maybe it only means "except in cases where the law doesn't let you sign away your right to reverse-engineer". Or maybe it just means "we can sue you for breach of contract too if you do it".
  823. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> Meh, who cares.
  824. # [22:21] <espadrine> Arguably, it means that you are allowed to do so in any country that doesn't specify that reverse engineering is illegal.
  825. # [22:21] <espadrine> What EULA is it?
  826. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> Empire: Total War, a computer game.
  827. # [22:24] <espadrine> Well, they do unusual EULA then.
  828. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> Do they? How so?
  829. # [22:25] <AryehGregor> http://www.google.com/intl/en/jobs/joininggoogle/resume/index.html <-- HTML not an acceptable format? Lame.
  830. # [22:25] <espadrine> Although, iirc, Sun had a clause that forbid nuclear facilities from using their stuff.
  831. # [22:26] <Ms2ger> Opera does
  832. # [22:26] <Ms2ger> Also, flight control, IIRC
  833. # [22:26] <AryehGregor> Fascinating.
  834. # [22:26] <jgraham> Opera also accepts resumes in HTML form
  835. # [22:26] <jgraham> just sayin'
  836. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> I'd just have to move to Scandinavia, is that all?
  837. # [22:27] <Ms2ger> It would be pretty sad if they didn't
  838. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> Probably Google would too, but no sense in not following instructions.
  839. # [22:28] <jgraham> Well I say "accepts" though for most technical jobs I mean "requires"
  840. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> See, now that makes sense.
  841. # [22:28] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Well not necessarily. But most jobs are in Scandinavia
  842. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> And have someone manually inspect the source code and reject the application if they use <FONT COLOR="RED">.
  843. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> None in, say, New York or Israel?
  844. # [22:29] <jgraham> AryehGregor: http://www.opera.com/company/jobs/
  845. # [22:29] <AryehGregor> So that's a no, then.
  846. # [22:30] <jgraham> And you can infer what you like about the <font color> stuff from http://www.opera.com/company/jobs/opening/67/
  847. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> "Your CV and covering letter should be in HTML5/CSS. That is your first test."
  848. # [22:30] <jgraham> "Your CV and covering letter should be in HTML5/CSS. That is your first test."
  849. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> Haha.
  850. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> Awesome.
  851. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> I also bet you get points off if you do -webkit-border-radius: 1em; -moz-border-radius: 1em
  852. # [22:31] <jgraham> Well I'm not involved with recruitment
  853. # [22:32] <jgraham> But I guess one would think twice before sending in something "Best Viewed with Google Chrome"
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  855. # [22:34] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  856. # [22:45] <AryehGregor> I just realized I have no idea how to write a decent resume.
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  858. # [22:48] <jgraham> You start with an indecent one and add clothes
  859. # [22:53] <aho> :>
  860. # [22:56] <Philip`> AryehGregor: At least in the UK, there are certain cases where copyright law explicitly allows you to reverse-engineer programs (e.g. for interoperability) regardless of any other agreements that attempt to prohibit you from doing that
  861. # [22:57] <Philip`> so I guess the agreements want to be clear that their terms should not be completely ignored, since they're still prohibiting all the other cases that aren't those certain cases
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  863. # [22:58] <Philip`> Oh, actually that's about "decompilation" rather than reverse-engineering
  864. # [22:58] * Joins: payman_m (~payman_m@h85-8-2-58.static.se.alltele.net)
  865. # [22:58] <Philip`> but close enough
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  867. # [22:59] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I have some vague idea about pronounciation, but that's the extent of my knowledge of Gaelic
  868. # [23:00] <MikeSmith> ok
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  871. # [23:01] * gsnedders has some vague suspicion his CV was HTML 4.01 Strict
  872. # [23:01] <gsnedders> (But I can't remember)
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  876. # [23:03] <jgraham> AryehGregor: (If you wanted more useful CV advice possibly 'nobody cares about what you did at high school' and 'imagine you have to read 100 of them and want to find all the interesting stuff quickly' would be better)
  877. # [23:03] <AryehGregor> Noted.
  878. # [23:04] * Quits: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.153.2) (Quit: less catch, more try)
  879. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> I guess my CV should clearly say "Okay, I'm just out of college, but I actually have lots of experience at this stuff as a volunteer."
  880. # [23:05] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: I think you should submit your CV as an animated movie created using xtranormal
  881. # [23:05] * AryehGregor makes sure to use goo.gl for his URL shortening, and makes a mental note to change that if he submits to anyone other than Google
  882. # [23:06] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I'd say more, look at this experience, and hey, I went to college!
  883. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, I think that kind of resume is probably better suited to people applying for jobs as designers.
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  885. # [23:06] <jgraham> gsnedders: More like "hey I actually finished college" :p
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  887. # [23:06] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Having gone to college is unlikely to get you a job. Having experience is probably more important.
  888. # [23:07] <gsnedders> jgraham: Hey, I'm still at university, and went to all my lectures today!
  889. # [23:07] <gsnedders> (Turns out programming lectures are still ungodly boring)
  890. # [23:07] <jgraham> (that isn't true I think)
  891. # [23:07] <jgraham> (not about gsnedders lectures)
  892. # [23:07] <jgraham> (but lots of people get jobs with degrees and little experience)
  893. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, well, I don't think anyone is going to be fooled into thinking I have lots of professional experience at this point.
  894. # [23:08] <jgraham> (having a degree *and* experience is obviously better)
  895. # [23:08] <AryehGregor> I mean, I should come off as being much better than some average dude just out of college.
  896. # [23:08] <AryehGregor> But probably not as good as someone with five years' of actual job experience.
  897. # [23:08] <jgraham> (having just experience depends a lot on who you are applying to)
  898. # [23:08] <AryehGregor> (except that if I'm applying specifically for web specs, probably like twelve people have at least five years' of job experience with that, so)
  899. # [23:09] <AryehGregor> (half of them are probably in this room)
  900. # [23:09] <gsnedders> Yeah, sure. And my point about mentioning the experience first is more that you want to set yourself apart. Whoever is looking at it probably has 100 others to look at, all starting with, "I went to the university and got put in a box".
  901. # [23:09] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: To actually edit specs full time, or?
  902. # [23:09] * jgraham didn't get put into a box at university
  903. # [23:09] <jgraham> although there was probably a societry for that if it's your thing
  904. # [23:10] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yes you did, you're the same as everyone else!
  905. # [23:10] <gsnedders> (There again, you'll probably claim I can't reference songs without girls around.)
  906. # [23:10] <gsnedders> (Again.)
  907. # [23:10] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: under the Entrepreneurial Experience heading, I recommend not listing any marijuana grow operations you might be running
  908. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, but if I'm doing something more unusual and enterprising, like smuggling cocaine, you think that would be a good thing to say?
  909. # [23:11] <jgraham> gsnedders: (the irony of the song is that it is almost entirely the wrong way roungd, I think)
  910. # [23:11] <MikeSmith> also, experience with making money trading smuggled contraband in country jail is often to valued quite a highly as you might think it would be
  911. # [23:11] <jgraham> (I suspect people who go to university end up leading way more diverse lifestyles than people who don't)
  912. # [23:11] <gsnedders> jgraham: (Then there's the irony of who keeps singing it :P)
  913. # [23:11] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: just use code words
  914. # [23:12] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
  915. # [23:12] <AryehGregor> jgraham, it probably depends on how you measure diversity.
  916. # [23:12] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Like when you say "Man mangement skills" and you mean "I'm a sociopath that will make CEO one day"
  917. # [23:12] <MikeSmith> heh
  918. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, so do you think I should be aiming to make it into thedailywtf.com's next round-up of resume submissions, or what?
  919. # [23:14] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.107) (Remote host closed the connection)
  920. # [23:14] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Sure, it's all about getting your name known in the right circles
  921. # [23:15] * AryehGregor realizes that goo.gl provides public click profile data, so if he includes a goo.gl URL in a resume that he only submits to Google, he'll have a good idea of how many people read it and where they are.
  922. # [23:15] <AryehGregor> The irony is delicious.
  923. # [23:15] <AryehGregor> jgraham, sadly, TDWTF tends not to include names.
  924. # [23:16] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Seriously though, what specifically are you trying to get a job doing?
  925. # [23:16] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: there's no such thing as bad publicity
  926. # [23:16] <Ms2ger> You could just have your resume on your website and send yourself an email for every hit
  927. # [23:16] <Ms2ger> (Like Hixie)
  928. # [23:16] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, my general goal at this point is to get a job where people will pay me money. Possibly this will involve me performing some activity they desire in exchange, preferably one that I find at least moderately enjoyable.
  929. # [23:17] <AryehGregor> This seems like a fairly conventional course of action.
  930. # [23:17] <Philip`> Ms2ger: If you do that, you should be very careful not to mention it in the presence of people who might then find it amusing to set up a script that downloads the page and loops several times a second
  931. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> Realistically, something in web standards seems like a good bet, because there's hardly a lot of competition. Failing that, programming is fine too.
  932. # [23:18] <jgraham> So far it is not clear that you have excluded, say "high class male escort" from your list of possibilities
  933. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> Well, I doubt that would be very competitive pay, given my skill set.
  934. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> Also given my incredibly nerdy appearance.
  935. # [23:20] <gsnedders> Hey, I'm sure some are into that.
  936. # [23:21] <jgraham> Maybe not enough for a regular income
  937. # [23:24] * Joins: WHATWG (~apermanen@67-134-147-135.dia.static.qwest.net)
  938. # [23:24] <Hixie> hm, did anyone write a counter-proposal for the rel registry?
  939. # [23:24] <Hixie> we're a few days past the deadline
  940. # [23:26] <othermaciej> TabAtkins said he was going to, but I don't know if he did anything yet
  941. # [23:27] <hober> at the same time, the wg doesn't seem enthusiastic about the IETF registry
  942. # [23:29] * Quits: timeless_mbp (~timeless@a88-115-8-36.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  943. # [23:35] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.41.66) (Quit: nn)
  944. # [23:36] <Hixie> well, i sent a null CP
  945. # [23:38] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181063178.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  946. # [23:41] * Joins: timeless_mbp (~timeless@a88-115-8-36.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  947. # [23:51] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  948. # [23:55] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  949. # Session Close: Sat Oct 23 00:00:00 2010

The end :)