/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-10-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Oct 25 00:00:01 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  14. # [00:47] <MikeSmith> what's the right way to represent variadic args in WebIDL?
  15. # [00:48] <MikeSmith> oh
  16. # [00:48] <MikeSmith> is there a "variadic" keyword?
  17. # [00:48] * MikeSmith tries
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  19. # [00:50] <MikeSmith> hmm, just "..." I guess
  20. # [00:55] * MikeSmith now tries to figure how to represent it in a way that refspecs WebIDL preprocessor can parse
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  23. # [00:56] <MikeSmith> if anybody who has used refspec with spec that have methods with variable number of arguments, and can clue me in on how to mark it up, I would appreciate it
  24. # [00:57] <Philip`> HTML5 has things with variable numbers of arguments
  25. # [00:57] <MikeSmith> Philip`: yeah, but I think Hixie maintains the source for those in actual WebIDL
  26. # [00:58] <MikeSmith> whereas Refspec uses some markup so it can generate syntax highlighting and hyperlinks and such
  27. # [00:58] <Philip`> Oh
  28. # [00:58] * Philip` knows nothing about Refspec
  29. # [00:59] <MikeSmith> it seems to work pretty well
  30. # [01:00] <MikeSmith> but for me right now, it's just one more thing with idiosyncracies to figure out when all I really want to do is get a simple draft written
  31. # [01:01] <MikeSmith> I guess I'll just move on for now and bug Berjon about it later when he gets online
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  83. # [04:38] <nessy> Hixie - are you there?
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  85. # [04:41] <nessy> the ruby markup in WebSRT uses <ruby> and <rt> elements, but as I am trying to learn about ruby, I am crossing examples that look like this: <ruby><rb>xxx</rb><rt>yyy</rt></ruby> and also <rp>, <rbc> and <rtc> elements - what's up with all that?
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  87. # [04:55] <karlcow> nessy: I had the impression that complex ruby was not supported (yet?)
  88. # [04:55] <nessy> karlcow: I have no idea what complex ruby is and or is not, and even less whether it is implemented or even standardised
  89. # [04:56] <nessy> I am trying to understand why <ruby> is specified the way it is in WebSRT :)
  90. # [04:56] <karlcow> rtc, rbc are elements of "complex ruby"
  91. # [04:56] <nessy> so, are <ruby> and <rt> the common ruby markup in Web pages right now and all implemented and supported?
  92. # [04:56] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby/#rbc
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  94. # [04:57] <nessy> yeah, I saw that, which is why I am asking - so <rbc> and <rtc> are not implemented and I can safely ignore them - good to know
  95. # [04:57] <nessy> what about <rb> ?
  96. # [04:59] <karlcow> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/text-level-semantics.html#the-ruby-element it seems it has not been added to the spec either (for now)
  97. # [04:59] <karlcow> http://html5doctor.com/ruby-rt-rp-element/
  98. # [05:00] <karlcow> at this last uri, there is a table for browser support
  99. # [05:00] <nessy> I found <rb> on the relevant wikipedia page, which got me wondering
  100. # [05:01] <nessy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_character
  101. # [05:01] <nessy> and indeed <rp>
  102. # [05:02] <nessy> thanks for helping me understand - seems there are three levels of markup with increasing complexity and the lowest is the only implemented one
  103. # [05:03] <nessy> the html5doctor page is really awesome, thanks!
  104. # [05:03] <karlcow> nessy: another article which is good to understand http://my.opera.com/tagawa/blog/the-html5-ruby-element-in-words-of-one-syllable-or-less
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  107. # [05:13] <nessy> thanks
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  112. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> so if I were to attempt to draft some implementation requirements for the console object, I'm wondering if there's something spec'ed somewhere already that I can crib from
  113. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> not the IDL I mean
  114. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> that part I have
  115. # [06:00] <MikeSmith> a start on at least
  116. # [06:00] <MikeSmith> but instead the UA requirements around what the UA should actually do with it
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  126. # [06:49] <infid> how do you pronounce whatwg? 'what w.g.'?
  127. # [06:50] <MikeSmith> infid: yeah, that works
  128. # [06:50] <MikeSmith> some people say what wee gee
  129. # [06:50] <infid> it makes me wanna say 'whatwig'
  130. # [07:02] <boogyman> If it hasn't already been discussed can we add placeholder color in CSS4 for form controls :)
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  145. # [07:22] <Hixie> infid: i say "what wuh jee"
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  178. # [08:59] <zcorpan> Web application analysis and debugging - WAAAD
  179. # [08:59] <zcorpan> pretty good acronym
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  183. # [09:07] * annevk says what-wii-jee
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  189. # [09:23] * zcorpan says what working group
  190. # [09:24] <annevk> no wonder everyone knows the W3C better ;p
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  192. # [09:24] <zcorpan> should have gone with whattf
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  195. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> how can I figure out what type of exception a console.assert implementation is throwing?
  196. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> and does the spec need to define what type of exception it's supposed to throw?
  197. # [09:34] <Peter`> console.log in a try/catch block?
  198. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> ok
  199. # [09:38] <annevk> don't we wanna leave the details up to the implementations mostly?
  200. # [09:38] <annevk> but just define that .console needs to exist as well as several methods on it?
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  202. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> annevk: would be fine by me but
  203. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> I notice http://getfirebug.com/wiki/index.php/Console_API#console.assert.28expression.5B.2C_object.2C_....5D.29
  204. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> "Tests that an expression is true. If not, it will write a message to the console and throw an exception."
  205. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> which led me to wonder about exactly what kind of exception current implementations actually throw
  206. # [09:43] <annevk> fair enough
  207. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> but yeah, agreed in principle that we want to leave the details up to the implementation
  208. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> that wiki page already goes to far into implementation detail
  209. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> I thinki
  210. # [09:45] <annevk> wow, console.log() is complicated
  211. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> e.g., it says, "Writes a message to the console with the visual "error" icon and color coding and a hyperlink to the line where it was called"
  212. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> which seems not righ
  213. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> seems like it should just say that it writes a message with a flag set to indicate it's an error message
  214. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> and maybe that it also include the line number
  215. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> but then it's up to the implementation to decide what it does with that data
  216. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> whether to display an icon or hyperlink or whatever
  217. # [09:47] <annevk> but this is not a spec
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  219. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> what is it?
  220. # [09:47] <annevk> or maybe it is, but at a different level than W3C specs, if you can say such a thing :)
  221. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> yeah sure
  222. # [09:47] <annevk> I mean, for a particular UA you can write a specification that includes UI requirements
  223. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> true
  224. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> but the scope of this is just the api
  225. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> or really the definition of object itself i guess
  226. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> and I would think it should be precise enough and thorough within that scope enough to give whatever level of interoperability
  227. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> anyway
  228. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> my goal is just to have some initial draft that somebody else can pick up on
  229. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> seems like we have enough people interested in this
  230. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> and it will be a relatively small document
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  232. # [09:55] <sroussey> I think error, uncaught exceptions, and assertions all log to the console, but also provide backtrace information
  233. # [09:56] <sroussey> That is the reference to the hyperlink. We actually have a twisty thing that opens up a backtrace and then each function is a hyperlink
  234. # [09:56] <sroussey> You could also set breakpoints from the error message in the console
  235. # [09:57] <sroussey> But I don't know how much of that is needed for a spec. You could conceivably have a stack trace for a console.log but that doesn't make too much sense, and the UI can determine that
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  250. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> another thing with all the console methods is, they don't actually write messages to the console
  251. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> because the stuff you can have them log is not just strings
  252. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> it can be any kind of object
  253. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> and any number of objects
  254. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> so it's not a "message"
  255. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> except in some abstract sense
  256. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> it's more like just "log content" or even just "content"
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  258. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> e.g., instead of "Writes a message to the console" it should be "Outputs some content to the console"
  259. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> annevk: anyway, it would seem that the spec should define at least one conformance class and target itself to that
  260. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> otherwise I can't see any point in having it all
  261. # [10:43] <annevk> which spec?
  262. # [10:44] <annevk> I was talking about the wiki page earlier...
  263. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> console object spec
  264. # [10:44] <annevk> makes sense to me
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  269. # [11:03] <jgraham> MikeSmith: The stuff you can log is just strings, no? It's just that you get implicit type conversion
  270. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> no
  271. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> not as far as I can see
  272. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> like console.dir()
  273. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> well, all the methods, really
  274. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> if you pass, say, a node as an argument
  275. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> then the console shows the same kind of tree view of that node as it does in the DOM inspector
  276. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> not a string representation
  277. # [11:05] <jgraham> From a spec point of view that seems like an implementation detail
  278. # [11:06] <jgraham> I mean presumably it would be conforming for a UA to represent it as a single string
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  280. # [11:07] <jgraham> But yes, I see that some methods could optionally log something more rich
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  297. # [12:19] <annevk> hsivonen, fwiw, I do enjoy your "Blogish Notes"
  298. # [12:20] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks. I'm going to post this but I'm still uphappy about the time it has so far taken to write up my Galaxy Tab thoughts as a post
  299. # [12:20] <hsivonen> compared to writing a series of tweet
  300. # [12:22] <hsivonen> s
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  303. # [12:35] * Disconnected
  304. # Session Close: Mon Oct 25 12:35:26 2010
  305. #
  306. # Session Start: Mon Oct 25 13:56:29 2010
  307. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  308. # [13:56] * Now talking in #whatwg
  309. # [13:56] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  310. # [13:56] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  313. # [14:01] <Philip`> karlcow: I assume it's because most people aren't sociopaths
  314. # [14:02] <karlcow> Philip`: which is kind of good. The main issue being that when "aggressed" online, there is little way to know that it happened for most people.
  315. # [14:02] <karlcow> *ways
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  329. # [15:01] <annevk> http://simonwillison.net/2010/Oct/25/bleach/ html5lib in production use
  330. # [15:01] <annevk> guess nobody cares about speed
  331. # [15:01] <asmodai> Speed is for pussies!
  332. # [15:02] <asmodai> http://coffeeonthekeyboard.com/bleach-html-sanitizer-and-auto-linker-for-django-344/ <-- boxes around the highlighted terms too big for others as well?
  333. # [15:03] <jgraham> annevk: If you are doing sanitization maybe correctness is important. Most blog comments aren't multimegabyte anyway
  334. # [15:03] <annevk> i was not actually being serious
  335. # [15:13] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-222-194.cnt.nerim.net)
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  337. # [15:15] <annevk> oh help
  338. # [15:15] <annevk> someone mentioned xml:dir
  339. # [15:16] <annevk> not sure I'm ready for another lang/xml:lang clusterfuck
  340. # [15:16] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  341. # [15:17] <asmodai> http://feedbackroulette.com/info/howitworks XD
  342. # [15:17] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  343. # [15:17] * Philip` wonders if anyone's going to bother replying to the <h7>..<h9> proposal on public-html to say we already have infinitely many levels of heading elements, all called <h1>
  344. # [15:19] <annevk> If people don't even bother reading the drafts...
  345. # [15:33] * Joins: plainhao (~plainhao@mail.xbiotica.com)
  346. # [15:34] * karlcow doesn't see the mail on public-html
  347. # [15:35] <annevk> public-html-comments
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  352. # [15:37] <karlcow> annevk: thanks.
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  357. # [15:49] <annevk> W3C is being DDOS'ed again because of DTD fetching...
  358. # [15:51] <miketaylr> are there uas that actually fetch dtds?
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  363. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> annevk: indeed
  364. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> miketaylr: there are
  365. # [16:05] <miketaylr> O_o
  366. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> yeah :(
  367. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> asshats…
  368. # [16:05] <miketaylr> haha
  369. # [16:07] * Philip` recently saw http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=320 - "If you just enable DTD support and use the validating reader though, the .NET Framework will happily go and download the XHTML DTD from the W3 every single time, without caching."
  370. # [16:08] <zcorpan> i wonder what should happen with <video poster> for a media stream with no video data
  371. # [16:08] * MikeSmith keeps quiet about that
  372. # [16:09] <zcorpan> maybe i should file a new bug about that
  373. # [16:12] <zcorpan> Hixie: "An error occured while submitting your comment. Please let ian@hixie.ch know."
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  379. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: that error is because of bugzilla being inaccessible due to the latest DDOS
  380. # [16:17] <zcorpan> oh
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  382. # [16:17] <zcorpan> i could access bugzilla though
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  391. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I think it's improving now
  392. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> and I think it depends on which mirror you happen to hit
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  394. # [16:27] * karlcow has been ddos by MS Outlook a few times to the point where I have denied any requests from this user agent.
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  396. # [16:28] <karlcow> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Nov/0011
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  402. # [16:31] <jgraham> karlcow: How does that story end? Presumably that wasn't part of the stock outlook but some extension or so? Otherwise the numbers would presumably be much higher
  403. # [16:31] <karlcow> I never had a reply from Microsoft. never.
  404. # [16:32] <karlcow> I don't know if MS Outlook is still trying. I could check. I never look at the stats of my Web site.
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  406. # [16:39] <karlcow> jgraham: a lot better… only 16 requests (403) on October 24 for Outlook
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  444. # [17:56] <TabAtkin1_> gsnedders: I'm here *now*. You still need anything?
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  447. # [18:01] * jgraham decides it would be cruel to list all the things that gsnedders needs ;)
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  466. # [18:24] * gsnedders wonders what mean things jgraham is thinking of now…
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  470. # [18:36] <infid> is OSMF a competitor to html5 or a separate thing
  471. # [18:36] * Quits: timeless_mbp (~timeless@192.100.124.156) (Quit: Leaving.)
  472. # [18:36] <infid> as far as media
  473. # [18:36] * TabAtkin1_ doesn't even know what OSMF is. Googling...
  474. # [18:37] <TabAtkin1_> It's just a flash framework for developing media players. Irrelevant to HTML.
  475. # [18:38] * TabAtkin1_ is now known as TabAtkins_
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  477. # [18:45] <infid> adobe led, open-source actionscript 3 framework for playing and displaying media
  478. # [18:46] <infid> supports any type of media that can be loaded by Flash, including (streaming audio) mp3, AAC, Speex, and Nellymoser; (streaming video) FLV, F4V, MP4, MPEG-4: MP4, M4V, F4V, 3GPP; (audio) mp3; (video) FLV, F4V, MP4, MP4V-ES, M4V, 3GPP, 3GPP2, QuickTime; (images) PNG, GIF, or JPG; and SWF files.
  479. # [18:49] <infid> it's completely code based, doesn't require flash or flex is why i ask if it's a competitor, seems like it'd just be an alternative way to create video but should be usable inside of your html5. just saw some code and it just looks like javascript
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  487. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, but it's for messing with Flash-based components.
  488. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> I guess theoretically it could be used with <video> as well. In any case, it's a library at a higher level than HTML5.
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  491. # [19:01] <TabAtkins_> Hmm, showing a poster for <audio> seems like a common use-case.
  492. # [19:01] <TabAtkins_> That should probably be done by putting the audio in a <video>, I guess.
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  518. # [20:20] <karlcow> since I removed flash from my computer, I spent a lot less time watching videos :)
  519. # [20:21] <gsnedders> This worked fine for me. Then YouTube started with their WebM encoding of videos. Then it went downhill again.
  520. # [20:23] <karlcow> I haven't downloaded Opera 11 yet. Not sure I want to cope right away with the crashes
  521. # [20:23] <gsnedders> It shouldn't be any more unstable than 10.6x.
  522. # [20:24] <gsnedders> (Stability shouldn't really differ, what really differs is the amount of pre-release testing.)
  523. # [20:25] <karlcow> ok let's give it a try and curse gsnedders for centuries ;)
  524. # [20:26] <gsnedders> Bah, you'll find some other excuse to do it anyway :)
  525. # [20:26] <karlcow> heh
  526. # [20:26] <gsnedders> *you'd
  527. # [20:29] <karlcow> ok 1st bad karma, all my tabs are gone
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  529. # [20:29] <jgraham> gsnedders: I woudln't expect 11 alpha to be as stable as 10.63
  530. # [20:30] <gsnedders> karlcow: Oh, yeah, it'll use a different profile folder
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  533. # [20:31] <karlcow> renaming old opera as opera10.63 and the new one as opera11
  534. # [20:31] <Workshiva> operall
  535. # [20:32] <kamathln> Hi.. how offtopic a discussion is tolerable on this channel?
  536. # [20:32] <TabAtkins_> We tend to like keeping things about web technologies, but there's isn't any real topic.
  537. # [20:32] <jgraham> kamathln: Generally quite
  538. # [20:32] <Workshiva> Depends on how much people like you
  539. # [20:32] <TabAtkins_> So technically nothing is off-topic, by definition.
  540. # [20:32] <Workshiva> Also, how much you're willing to stand for when other people find the logs
  541. # [20:32] <jgraham> But I guess people won't be too happy if you start trying to sell penis enhancement products
  542. # [20:33] <Workshiva> Yeah, that's MikeSmith's racket
  543. # [20:33] <Workshiva> He doesn't like competition
  544. # [20:33] <kamathln> lol
  545. # [20:33] <kamathln> just wanted input on http://creator.zoho.com/kamathln/browserbenchmarks
  546. # [20:34] <kamathln> its a zoho app I mashed up this evening so please be gentle on the looks
  547. # [20:34] <kamathln> that would be zoho's dept
  548. # [20:34] <TabAtkins_> I'm getting no data.
  549. # [20:34] <kamathln> there is no data
  550. # [20:34] <kamathln> but you can add
  551. # [20:34] <TabAtkins_> Ah, kk.
  552. # [20:34] <kamathln> i am asking about the concept
  553. # [20:34] <karlcow> kamathln: people here have poor taste in visual layouts. So no risk of bad comments
  554. # [20:35] <jgraham> I would be scared of getting into the benchmarks business
  555. # [20:35] <kamathln> lemme throw some data in there
  556. # [20:35] <TabAtkins_> I'm of the opinion that there are only two useful colors on the web - #fff and #222.
  557. # [20:35] <kamathln> jgraham: but why?
  558. # [20:35] <TabAtkins_> (#000 is so gauche)
  559. # [20:35] <jgraham> Unless you have a *really* strong grip on what you are doing
  560. # [20:35] <kamathln> Well, I am not designing the benchmarks themselves
  561. # [20:36] <Workshiva> TabAtkins_: How will you write test cases without red, green and blue?
  562. # [20:36] <kamathln> I am jsut providing a place to share benchmarks
  563. # [20:36] <jgraham> kamathln: Because most benchmarks, even popular ones, are not that well thought out. And yet people try to read lots into them
  564. # [20:36] <jgraham> Encouraging people to read lots into poorly thought out things doesn't strike me as a great idea
  565. # [20:36] <kamathln> thats up to people to decide
  566. # [20:36] <gsnedders> And statistically quite a few of them really aren't very good.
  567. # [20:36] <TabAtkins_> Workshiva: I'll write out "red".
  568. # [20:36] <jgraham> kamathln: People are very bad at deciding though
  569. # [20:37] <gsnedders> kamathln: People don't decide. They look, see x > y, and conclude product b is better than a as a result.
  570. # [20:37] <Workshiva> But why would you use a color that isn't useful? :P
  571. # [20:37] <jgraham> Most benchmarks that are quoted in reviews and so on are not that meaningful
  572. # [20:37] <kamathln> good for them
  573. # [20:38] <jgraham> To turn this on its head: why do you thing this is a useful thing to do?
  574. # [20:38] <kamathln> browser wars
  575. # [20:38] <gsnedders> Spreading information that is not meaningful is not productive.
  576. # [20:38] <kamathln> I love them
  577. # [20:38] <kamathln> :D
  578. # [20:38] <gsnedders> kamathln: Hint: browsers aren't going to fight over more than a very small number of benchmarks, and those are ones people have heard of already.
  579. # [20:40] <jgraham> If you end up making a benchmark from a combination of prewritten benchmarks then you fall foul of my first point; you need to be an expert to determine what the things that are worth including are
  580. # [20:40] <jgraham> If you are an expert or are willing to become one, that is fine
  581. # [20:40] <gsnedders> Yet alone to balance them fairly
  582. # [20:40] <jgraham> Most people, even people who write benchmarks, are not
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  584. # [20:41] <jgraham> (FWIW I think chosing a browser because it does sunspider in n ms whereas some other browser does it in n+10 is silly)
  585. # [20:41] <kamathln> did you know about http://dromaeo.com/
  586. # [20:41] <gsnedders> e.g., there are things on sunspider where a 50% speed increase doesn't matter that much, but other things 50% is very significant, because some tests take 3ms and other tests take 300ms.
  587. # [20:41] <jgraham> Yes
  588. # [20:41] <gsnedders> kamathln: It's not particuarly good.
  589. # [20:42] <jgraham> gsnedders: (that is just bad design in sunspider though)
  590. # [20:42] <jgraham> gsnedders: (because they didn't update it fast enough when some parts were optimised in new engines)
  591. # [20:43] <MikeSmith> unless there's a way to add data to the page by using some talking teddy bears, I'll probably just spent the time lighting up and making more xtranormal movies instead
  592. # [20:43] <jgraham> (which is the only reasonable thing to do because there is no good way to weight things that differ by orders of magnitude, especially when some of them are below your timer resolution)
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  614. # [22:19] <othermaciej> Hixie: ayt?
  615. # [22:19] <Hixie> here
  616. # [22:20] <othermaciej> can you either remove the comment form in the w3c draft or add some better spam protection? (preferably just the former unless the latter can be done quickly)
  617. # [22:20] <annevk> lhttp://www.marketwatch.com/story/wary-of-google-street-view-move-ceo-says-2010-10-22 o_O
  618. # [22:20] <annevk> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/wary-of-google-street-view-move-ceo-says-2010-10-22
  619. # [22:21] <annevk> '“Street View, we drive exactly once,” Schmidt said, referring to the vehicles mounted with cameras sent out to take photos for the service. “So, you can just move, right?”'
  620. # [22:21] <annevk> that guy is a tool when it comes to statements about privacy
  621. # [22:21] <annevk> joking or not
  622. # [22:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: we added better spam protection last week
  623. # [22:24] <Hixie> is it still a problem?
  624. # [22:24] * Joins: tonyg-cr (~Adium@nat/google/x-ocmhphcteqyuilyj)
  625. # [22:24] <annevk> Peter`, "actual rendering" ;p
  626. # [22:25] <annevk> Peter-, might actually add that rule now
  627. # [22:25] <Peter-> works for me!
  628. # [22:26] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  629. # [22:26] <Peter-> changed it to "vertical" :)
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  631. # [22:34] <othermaciej> Hixie: when was the better protection added?
  632. # [22:34] <Hixie> i don't recall exactly. We were talking about it on IRC though. Friday maybe?
  633. # [22:34] <othermaciej> Hixie: last spammy bug I see is 10/20
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  635. # [22:35] <Hixie> pretty sure it was after the 20th
  636. # [22:35] <othermaciej> if you let the WG list know that there is better protection I think that will cover it, right now the public-html thread is dangling
  637. # [22:35] <Hixie> *shrug*
  638. # [22:35] <Hixie> they'll figure it out
  639. # [22:35] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: You seem to be contradicting yourself in the css testsuite thread.
  640. # [22:35] <annevk> http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/10/france_on_strike.html o_O
  641. # [22:35] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: how so?
  642. # [22:35] <annevk> gonna be fun next week
  643. # [22:36] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: Wait, never mind, I was *completely* misreading what you wrote. I flipped a "not".
  644. # [22:36] <Hixie> hehe
  645. # [22:36] <Hixie> ok good :-)
  646. # [22:36] <Hixie> annevk: wow, that first picture is gold
  647. # [22:36] <jgraham> /me wishes he remembered to look at The Big Picture more often
  648. # [22:37] <annevk> The Big Picture is one of the best things on the internet
  649. # [22:37] <annevk> right up there with reddit.com :)
  650. # [22:37] <Hixie> i wish there was a better way to experience the big picture photos
  651. # [22:37] <Hixie> scrolling with a browser doesn't work well
  652. # [22:37] <Hixie> it's a perfect candidate for media=projection
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  654. # [22:38] <annevk> yeah, you need to have some crazy ass timing skills for scrolling to work
  655. # [22:38] <Hixie> othermaciej: (most if not all the thread actually happened after it was fixed, iirc)
  656. # [22:39] <volkmar> AryehGregor: ping
  657. # [22:39] <AryehGregor> volkmar, pong
  658. # [22:39] <AryehGregor> I've been meaning to look at your patch . . . bogged down in schoolwork right now.
  659. # [22:39] <volkmar> will you have time for the feedback on bug 601061 (mozilla) ?
  660. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> Okay, I should be able to get to that in a few minutes.
  661. # [22:40] <volkmar> AryehGregor: great :)
  662. # [22:41] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@ZYMYDV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  663. # [22:44] <jgraham> annevk: reddit? I can't tell if that is sarcasm or not
  664. # [22:46] * Quits: onar (~onar@2620:0:1b00:16f2:21f:5bff:fe3e:944) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  665. # [22:46] <jgraham> Also, France is awesome
  666. # [22:46] <AryehGregor> volkmar, what's the range of a PRUint32? 0 to 2^31 - 1?
  667. # [22:47] <jgraham> Particularly the people who protest in high heels
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  669. # [22:48] <othermaciej> Hixie: there does seem to be some slightly less blatant spam getting through
  670. # [22:48] <othermaciej> e.g. 5 instances of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Oct/0353.html
  671. # [22:48] <othermaciej> 2 instances of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Oct/0370.html
  672. # [22:48] <Hixie> othermaciej: those are from the whatwg spec's one
  673. # [22:48] * AryehGregor guesses he'll comment on the bug
  674. # [22:48] <othermaciej> I see
  675. # [22:48] <Hixie> you can tell because their URL isn't #top
  676. # [22:48] <Hixie> (the w3c version always uses #top for the URL's fragid)
  677. # [22:49] <volkmar> AryehGregor: 0 -> 2^32-1, 0 -> 2^31-1 is the positive part of a PRInt32
  678. # [22:49] * Quits: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: nimbupani)
  679. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> volkmar, so what prevents GetUnsignedIntAttr() from returning something greater than 2^31-1?
  680. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> It's not allowed to per spec (since no browser currently does).
  681. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> Unfortunately, I don't understand exactly what a lot of the code is doing, so it's hard to comment . . .
  682. # [22:50] <volkmar> AryehGregor: because the value is stored as a PRInt32 so we can't have something greater than 2^31-1
  683. # [22:51] <AryehGregor> Okay.
  684. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> What does the PR_MIN(aValue, PR_INT32_MAX) do? Clamp it to 2^31 - 1? If so, does that mean if I set it to 3000000000 then it will return 2^31 - 1 on getting? The spec says it should return the default value in that case.
  685. # [22:53] * Joins: onar (~onar@17.216.36.168)
  686. # [22:53] * AryehGregor puts his comments on the bug instead
  687. # [22:53] <volkmar> AryehGregor: i think what you say applies for setAttribute('size') but not for .size
  688. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> They should work identically here, no?
  689. # [22:55] <volkmar> "On setting, the given value must be converted to the shortest possible string representing the number as a valid non-negative integer and then that string must be used as the new content attribute value."
  690. # [22:55] <AryehGregor> Right, so value.size = 3000000000; is the same as value.setAttribute("3000000000"), right?
  691. # [22:55] <AryehGregor> Er.
  692. # [22:56] <AryehGregor> Or whatever.
  693. # [22:56] <AryehGregor> input.size.
  694. # [22:56] <AryehGregor> But then we should have input.size == 20 or such.
  695. # [22:56] <Hixie> well don't forget WebIDL might fiddle with the new value before it gets there
  696. # [22:56] <Hixie> but yes, in principle
  697. # [22:56] <AryehGregor> Not if it's in the range of an unsigned int, like 3000000000 is.
  698. # [22:56] <volkmar> AryehGregor: when you call input.size = <foo>, a valid value will be saved in the content attribute
  699. # [22:56] <volkmar> or i'm missing something :/
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  701. # [22:57] <Hixie> right, i didn't know if you meant 3000000000 specifically or if that was a generic poorly-named variable :-)
  702. # [22:57] <volkmar> AryehGregor: a valid non-negative integer is < 2^31, right?
  703. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> No.
  704. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> "A string is a valid non-negative integer if it consists of one or more characters in the range U+0030 DIGIT ZERO (0) to U+0039 DIGIT NINE (9)."
  705. # [22:58] <volkmar> hmm
  706. # [22:59] <volkmar> i should have click on that link
  707. # [22:59] <volkmar> i was assuming it was 0 to 2^31
  708. # [22:59] <volkmar> AryehGregor: thanks :)
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  712. # [23:03] <TabAtkins_> gsnedders: Oh geez, the <code> backgrounds on the bleach site are horribly large!
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  731. # [23:26] <gsnedders> TabAtkins_: Yeah. :(
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  737. # [23:36] <annevk> MikeSmith, you might need to step in as new co-host for Standards Suck next week
  738. # [23:37] <annevk> if there is enough time and space to record a few
  739. # [23:37] <MikeSmith> annevk: excellent
  740. # [23:37] <annevk> I was hoping you would say that :)
  741. # [23:38] <MikeSmith> we can add new segment where people have to show viewers their dance moves
  742. # [23:38] <MikeSmith> and viewers rate them
  743. # [23:38] <heycam> TabAtkins_, othermaciej, do you know about http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/adobe_html5_for_digital_publishing_collaborates_with_jquery_webkit.php and whether this text-in-arbitrary-shapes work is going to result in some standards (and if so -- CSS and/or SVG)?
  744. # [23:39] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: You have to add some random segment to each episode.
  745. # [23:41] <MikeSmith> the possibilities are endless
  746. # [23:41] <TabAtkins_> heycam: Hadn't heard about it, but yeah, we always propose anything that we think is half-worthwhile to the appropriate standards groups.
  747. # [23:48] <heycam> TabAtkins_, cool. yeah first i'd heard of this too.
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  750. # [23:51] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I thought you would be using your shot at internet fame to pimp your "male enhancement" line
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  755. # [23:58] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  756. # Session Close: Tue Oct 26 00:00:00 2010

The end :)