/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-10-28 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Oct 28 00:00:00 2010
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:18] <shepazu> Darxus, karlcow, do you think it would be useful for SVG 2 to have an 'autoscaling' attribute on the root that will indicate that @width and @height determine the aspect ratio, but that the image will fill the available viewport (rather than using @viewBox)?
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# [00:25] <heycam> shepazu, would that be any different from <svg width="100%" height="100%" viewBox="0 0 w h">?
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# [00:28] <shepazu> heycam: effectively, it would be the same, but I've heard a lot of feedback that that is unintuitive to many people... they like @width and @height to be the intrinsic dimensions, rather than 100%
# [00:29] <heycam> i see
# [00:30] <shepazu> heycam: so, it would be <svg width="600" height="400" autoscale="scale"> or something
# [00:30] <shepazu> @scale="auto | none", maybe
# [00:30] <shepazu> I don't care much what the syntax would be
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# [00:32] <shepazu> I think that would make the dimension negotiation easier
# [00:33] <shepazu> AryehGregor: what do you think of this idea ^^ ?
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# [00:35] <heycam> shepazu, easier for the author? might do.
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# [00:53] <Philip`> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/spec.html#rev1.1318 - ah, so now the process arguments expand into the CVS log
# [00:55] * othermaciej hates process arguments
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# [00:59] <Philip`> It becomes both hard to follow and hard to avoid when discussions get spread across public-html, Bugzilla, IRC, Twitter, and CVS
# [00:59] <Philip`> Someone needs to find a way to make communication in the modern world much easier :-(
# [00:59] <shepazu> othermaciej: you should write up a document that dictates how to manage process arguments
# [00:59] <othermaciej> but then we'd need to get approval on that document
# [01:00] <shepazu> then we could argue about that instead
# [01:00] <shepazu> othermaciej: everything is solved by adding another level of abstraction :P
# [01:00] <othermaciej> I think that might exceed my meta limit
# [01:01] <shepazu> Philip`: wasn't that what Wave was about?
# [01:01] * shepazu still likes the idea of Wave
# [01:01] <Philip`> Someone needs to find a way to make communication in the modern world much easier without having weirdo scrollbars
# [01:02] <shepazu> Philip`: yeah, I think the fatal flaw was that it was too closely yoked to that single implementation
# [01:02] <shepazu> but I really like distributed federated info streams
# [01:02] * shepazu isn't sure that he actually just said anything
# [01:03] <shepazu> leverage the optimization of the ROI on Ajax and HTML5
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# [02:24] <karlcow> shepazu: I guess it seems unspecified for some people and then have to rely to an explicit size. I wonder if it's good or not to have a default behavior. Still thinking.
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# [03:18] <karlcow> TPAC will be an "interesting" time of discussions
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# [09:40] <zcorpan> i've never heard of window.find
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# [09:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan: what does it do?
# [09:44] <zcorpan> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/window.find
# [09:47] <hsivonen> I wonder if searches cross-origin iframes, too
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# [09:50] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/688
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# [10:06] <wirepair> don't think so, i think i tested that lat year
# [10:06] <wirepair> err last
# [10:16] <jgraham> In case anyone is listening, +1 to zcorpan
# [10:16] <jgraham> A warning just at the top is useless
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# [10:17] <gsnedders> A warning just at the top?
# [10:17] <jgraham> I would expect it not to have helped in most of the cases I have seen where people have used an old version of the spec
# [10:17] <gsnedders> on public-html?
# [10:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes, we know you stopped reading it
# [10:18] <zcorpan> hmm stopping reading public-html sounds attractive
# [10:19] <zcorpan> doesn't do my day to read about OFFICIAL WHININGS
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# [10:22] <jgraham> Well it is pretty easy to ignore then
# [10:22] <jgraham> *them
# [10:23] <jgraham> Once you ignore the people who are just moaning about process there is hardly anything left to read
# [10:23] <gsnedders> jgraham, zcorpan: Well, I have stopped reading whatwg too. At least at all closely.
# [10:23] <jgraham> gsnedders: We know that too
# [10:23] <jgraham> You say it about once a week
# [10:23] <jgraham> :p
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# [10:48] <TabAtkins> Jeezus I am muting the *crap* out of the warning thread.
# [10:51] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: well, it seems to me that Hixie should have seen this coming and it was blatantly unproductive to put a warning like that in the draft
# [10:51] <TabAtkins> Man, I don't even care about that. I care about the fact that we have significant chatter going on between *adults* on whether it's appropriate to mark up the warning with an <em> or not.
# [10:52] <zcorpan> maybe Hixie was placing bets on how long it would take until the shit hit the fan
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# [10:53] <TabAtkins> If so, I hope he won, because the rest of us lose. >_<
# [10:53] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: I haven't read far enough to reach an <em> debate
# [10:53] <TabAtkins> Dammit why doesn't muting work.
# [10:54] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: you need (CA-3) Support separate volume control of the different audio tracks.
# [10:54] <TabAtkins> Heh.
# [10:59] <jgraham> I was quite surprised that Sicking posted that about <em>
# [11:00] <jgraham> Oh and I agree with hsivonen about the media thing fwiw
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# [11:00] <jgraham> It doesn't seem to have changed substantially since it was last discussed here and we were told it was about to change substantially
# [11:00] <sicking> jgraham: i know, it's really a too silly discussion to get involved with
# [11:00] <TabAtkins> Bad sicking!
# [11:01] <sicking> i'm just surprised when accessibility experts advocate misusing semantic elements in the name of accessibility
# [11:01] <sicking> it's shocking that AT doesn't support <em>
# [11:01] <sicking> no wonder the state of accessibility is so poor if we have to keep working around such AT vendors
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# [11:11] <annevk> the edit wars continued through the night
# [11:11] <annevk> oh god
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# [11:12] <gsnedders> Hmm, HTML5 requires object@data served as image/* gets sniffed. Opera doesn't.
# [11:13] * gsnedders is unaware of anything needing it to be sniffed…
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# [11:22] <zcorpan> sniffed for what?
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# [11:26] <annevk> e.g. that image/png can carry image/gif
# [11:26] <annevk> I suspect
# [11:26] <gsnedders> Yeah
# [11:26] <zcorpan> opera doesn't do that?
# [11:26] <gsnedders> Oh, wait, I'm being dumb
# [11:27] * gsnedders is getting stuff mixed up in his mind
# [11:28] <gsnedders> What we don't sniff is object served as text/plain
# [11:28] <gsnedders> The spec seems to fail to set the resource type in that case
# [11:29] <zcorpan> does the spec match mozilla?
# [11:29] <gsnedders> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-object-element 4.7.4.4
# [11:29] <gsnedders> It defines resource type when binary is false, but not when it is true
# [11:29] <gsnedders> zcorpan: I think the spec doesn't say.
# [11:29] <gsnedders> And then in 4.8 you then have an undefined variable.
# [11:30] <gsnedders> Oh, it's set initially to unknown
# [11:30] * zcorpan decides to not try to follow
# [11:31] <gsnedders> Look at the spec.
# [11:31] <gsnedders> You have a PNG served as text/plain.
# [11:31] <gsnedders> What happens?
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# [11:40] <zcorpan> uh, yeah, it gets sniffed as application/octet-stream by MIMESNIFF and thus sets binary to true, but doesn't say what happens next
# [11:41] <zcorpan> or step 8 goes to the Otherwise case
# [11:41] <gsnedders> falls into the otherwise case, no?
# [11:41] <gsnedders> Which matches nothing.
# [11:42] <zcorpan> right
# [11:42] <zcorpan> file a bug
# [11:42] <gsnedders> Yeah, was going to once someone checked I wasn't being silly. :)
# [11:43] <zcorpan> wait, doesn't it match "If the resource type is an XML MIME type, or if the resource type does not start with "image/"" ?
# [11:45] <gsnedders> I wasn't sure.
# [11:45] <zcorpan> application/octet-stream is a type that does not start with "image/"
# [11:46] <gsnedders> How is application/octet-stream the value of resource-type?
# [11:47] <gsnedders> Like, where does "resource type" get set apart from to unknown?
# [11:48] <zcorpan> "resource type" seems to be set by type=""
# [11:49] <zcorpan> and the file extension
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# [11:50] <gsnedders> If you have <object data="data:text/plain,%89PNG…"></object>
# [11:50] <zcorpan> so in our case it seems to be "unknown"
# [11:50] <gsnedders> Indeed.
# [11:51] <zcorpan> though "unknown" also doesn't start with "image/" :)
# [11:51] <gsnedders> Indeed :)
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# [12:19] <hsivonen> whoa. Using CVS access to commit changes to a draft one isn't an editor of strikes me as a very bad idea despite good intentions.
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# [12:23] <jgraham> Well, yes
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# [12:51] <annevk> "OFFICIAL WHININGS" haha
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# [12:51] <annevk> I find myself deleting most email on public-html these days
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# [12:59] <nessy> I find them an amusing read ;)
# [12:59] <jgraham> I wonder if I should start prefixing all my email with the word "OFFICIAL"
# [12:59] <heycam> i do like me some html5 drama, bur even for me i'm finding this latest episode a little tiresome
# [12:59] <jgraham> "OFFICIAL TECHNICAL QUESTION"
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# [13:01] <annevk> EXPERT OFFICIAL TECHNICAL QUESTION
# [13:01] <annevk> doh
# [13:02] <annevk> don't fuck with the experts of this world
# [13:02] <annevk> they will come to get you
# [13:06] <jgraham> On the other hand if you just fuck the experts of the world, in a few years you might have expert progeny who you can train up to use their expert superpowers for good
# [13:06] * jgraham is assuming expertness is an inherited quality goverened by the rules of genetics
# [13:07] <annevk> i take it you saw one of these superhero movies recently?
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# [13:50] <zcorpan> hmm, the "Errors that result in disproportionally poor performance" example seems to not be a very good example... http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#syntax-errors
# [13:50] <zcorpan> since the conforming alternative also has to check all open elements (once for each end tag)
# [13:52] <zcorpan> and the shorter markup might be a perf win if the network is the slow part
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# [14:47] <jgraham> Is it ever possible for an implied token to cause a "reprocess the token" to occur?
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# [14:54] <payman_m> e
# [14:56] <jgraham> π
# [14:57] <zcorpan> jgraham: well for e.g. "<p>" the spec implies <head> and then reprocesses <p>, which then implies </head> and then reprocesses <p>, etc
# [14:57] <jcranmer> e^(πi)
# [14:59] <zcorpan> jgraham: though i guess the implied token doesn't directly cause the reprocess
# [14:59] <jgraham> Right, the implied <head> is not itself reprocessed
# [15:01] <annevk> 2+2
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# [15:08] <jgraham> Specifically the invariant I wonder about is whether all "reprocess the token" calls are the last thing that happens when you process a given token, so it is equivalent to just spinning the loop with the token
# [15:08] <jgraham> again
# [15:08] <jgraham> The obvious way this could break is if token A implies token B which is reprocessed before something else is done with token A
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# [15:47] <karlcow> public-html needs an audio stylesheet tuned on Bob Marley
# [15:48] <Rik`> I shot the sheriff ?
# [15:49] <micheil> anyone looked at MS's new grid css proposal?
# [15:49] <karlcow> micheil: in which terms
# [15:50] <micheil> it's up on the W3c pages.. ppk linked to it this morning
# [15:50] <karlcow> I have seen the document and it looks interesting. It should be compared with other proposals. Daniel Glazman said that it would be a topic of discussions during TPAC next week.
# [15:50] <micheil> oh, nice
# [15:51] <micheil> I'm wondering how margins factor in
# [15:51] <karlcow> http://twitter.com/glazou/status/28976363531
# [15:51] <micheil> and also thinking that 1fr should be replaced with percentages
# [15:51] <karlcow> http://twitter.com/robinberjon/status/28976239926
# [15:51] <Rik`> with flex box, grid positionning, template layout and grid align, that makes 4 "layout" related stuff
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# [15:52] <Rik`> only one of them has some implementations
# [15:52] <micheil> I think the template layout stuff (if that was the "a b b c" stuff) was kinda bad
# [15:52] <micheil> I haven't seen flex box or grid positionning
# [15:52] <Rik`> I like the ASCII art idea
# [15:53] <Rik`> very visual
# [15:53] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-grid/
# [15:53] <micheil> yeah, but doens't feel write for css
# [15:53] <Rik`> I wish microsoft came with a build of IE supporting their proposal
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# [15:54] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-flexbox/
# [15:54] <micheil> Rik`: I'm interested in see the language look right in this case before a supporting demo
# [15:54] <micheil> websockets are slightly different in that respect
# [15:54] <micheil> (because you're not hand-writing network packets, yet you probably hand-write css)
# [15:54] <Rik`> without a supporting demo, you can't feel if the language is right
# [15:55] <micheil> Rik`: well, I'm sure any front end developer knows what they would want
# [15:55] <micheil> and currently the new MS grids thing is pretty much that.
# [15:55] <micheil> (for me)
# [15:55] <karlcow> http://www.interoperabilitybridges.com/css3-grid-align/
# [15:55] <karlcow> at least 3
# [15:56] <karlcow> I don't remember if there are more
# [15:56] <Rik`> karlcow: template layout
# [15:56] <karlcow> ah yes indeed
# [15:56] <Rik`> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-layout/
# [15:56] <micheil> I think flexbox is different
# [15:57] <Rik`> micheil: I'm not sure front-end developers know exactly what they want
# [15:57] <micheil> flexbox feels more like mozila's <hbox> <vboz> xul stuff
# [15:57] <karlcow> yep
# [15:57] <micheil> Rik`: it'd be an idea to ask them somehow then
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# [15:58] <micheil> Rik`: then again, I'm probably not your average front end developer
# [15:58] <Rik`> and these days, the only way to get a new module implemented is to start the dance
# [15:58] <micheil> and I don't really consider <hbox> / <vbox> stuff to really be grid layouts in the general sense
# [15:59] <Rik`> I'm not saying it's good (or bad)
# [15:59] <Rik`> just saying there are 4 layoutish modules
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# [16:00] <micheil> Rik`: yeah, true, but I think there should be a distinction between layout and grids
# [16:00] <micheil> grids are a subset of layout
# [16:00] <micheil> (in a way)
# [16:00] <micheil> sort a grid is a layout, but a layout isn't necessarily a grid
# [16:01] <micheil> like, flex box's box-lines: multiple; sounds like whitespace wrapping
# [16:01] <micheil> which would possibly be useful in an odd way
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# [16:14] <annevk> it's box wrapping
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# [16:36] <karlcow> "In my personal opinion, Adobe is doing a tremendous disservice to the publishing industry by encouraging these ineptly literal translations of print publications into iPad apps." http://www.subtraction.com/2010/10/27/my-ipad-magazine-stand
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# [17:53] <annevk> is there an scp parameter that makes it not copy files that already exist?
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# [17:56] <Philip`> Why not use rsync?
# [17:57] <annevk> then I should have used that from the beginning, no?
# [17:57] <jgraham> From the beginning of what?
# [17:58] <annevk> ok, so rsync does what I need?
# [17:58] <Philip`> It's basically just a fancier remote file copy tool
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# [17:58] <annevk> i'll give it a try
# [17:58] <Philip`> (and it can work over SSH)
# [17:59] <Philip`> (Can't copy directly between two remote hosts, though)
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# [18:12] <annevk> so how does one use rsync?
# [18:12] <annevk> rsync -a * remoteDir does not work
# [18:13] * annevk is terrible with command line manuals
# [18:13] <Philip`> What is remoteDir?
# [18:14] <annevk> something@ip:dir
# [18:14] <AryehGregor> rsync -a ./ myname@somehost:/absolute/path/
# [18:14] <AryehGregor> The trailing slashes are significant.
# [18:14] <Philip`> I think that should work, though "dir" is interpreted relative to the home directory
# [18:14] <AryehGregor> Also probably good to use -avz instead of just -a.
# [18:14] <micheil> rsync -avz localpath user@server:remote_path
# [18:15] <annevk> no luck :/
# [18:15] <Philip`> What fails?
# [18:15] <annevk> hmm
# [18:16] <annevk> "bash: rsync: command not found" but it does give the help pages and all?
# [18:16] <Philip`> It needs to be installed on the remote system too, I think
# [18:16] <Philip`> Not sure if that's the problem here
# [18:17] <micheil> Philip`: hmm, I don't think so.
# [18:17] <annevk> hmm, how is the package called?
# [18:17] <micheil> that looks like a local issue.
# [18:17] <annevk> afaict it's not on the remote host
# [18:17] <annevk> but apt-get does not find it
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# [18:17] <annevk> well, it also says "rsync error: remote command not found ..."
# [18:18] <micheil> okay, maybe I'm wrong.
# [18:19] <Philip`> http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=rsync - it's just called rsync
# [18:19] <annevk> running update first helps
# [18:20] <annevk> working
# [18:20] <annevk> thanks Philip`!
# [18:21] * Philip` likes rsync
# [18:21] * Philip` likes 'gzip --rsyncable' too
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# [18:23] * AryehGregor didn't know about that, interesting
# [18:24] <annevk> does rsync also take care of deleting files on one end?
# [18:25] <AryehGregor> You have to add the --delete option for that.
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# [18:26] <annevk> and the first time this is slow but then it will be fast right?
# [18:27] <AryehGregor> Yes, if the files haven't changed much.
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# [18:29] <Philip`> rsync doesn't store any extra metadata or anything - if you've already copied the files by some other means (scp or whatever) then rsync should immediately be fast (by only copying the changed portions of files)
# [18:29] <annevk> oh, not too fast then for large datasets
# [18:30] <AryehGregor> It depends what you mean by "large".
# [18:30] <Philip`> And by "fast"
# [18:30] <AryehGregor> I regularly copy a couple hundred gigabytes with rsync and it takes only a few minutes, given that most of it hasn't changed.
# [18:30] <AryehGregor> By default it will skip files entirely if their size and mtime are the same.
# [18:30] <annevk> well, lots of 10MB files of which I only added a few
# [18:30] <AryehGregor> Then it will only copy the newly-added files.
# [18:30] <AryehGregor> After the first time.
# [18:30] <annevk> maybe lots of them changed then
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# [18:31] <annevk> well, I had already copied them before via scp
# [18:31] <Philip`> Are you definitely copying into the same location where the scp'd files are? (rsync makes it easy to get mixed up and accidentally add an extra subdirectory so things don't go where you expect)
# [18:32] <AryehGregor> Yes, make sure you keep a careful eye on trailing slashes.
# [18:32] <AryehGregor> It has some weird idiosyncratic way of interpreting them.
# [18:32] <AryehGregor> Like rsync -a dir1 dir2 will create dir2/dir1/ and fill it with dir1's contents.
# [18:32] <AryehGregor> You want to do rsync -a dir1/ dir2/ for it to sync the contents of dir1 with those of dir2.
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# [18:34] <annevk> it ended up in the same directory
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# [18:39] <Philip`> About obsolete spec warnings: there have been non-zero occasions where browser developers accidentally looked at the static author view, and wondered where all the UA conformance requirements were
# [18:40] <Philip`> Oh, http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/ is all a weird style now
# [18:40] <Philip`> which at least makes it distinct
# [18:41] <Philip`> though only about 300 words fit on my screen at once, which makes it horrid to browse through since there's way too much scrolling :-(
# [18:42] <miketaylr> yeah, i wouldn't mind if that were wider
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# [18:44] <Philip`> I get a visible region of 500x640 pixels, which is less than I find comfortable
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# [18:50] <Philip`> (But apart from the narrowness (making it hard to read and making the code samples wrap too much), and some unreadably light blue text, and bugs with lists and stuff, it looks quite reasonable to me)
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# [18:54] <webr3> eh? why does http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/ look like a quick blog post rather than a document of web scale importance?
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# [18:55] <webr3> and http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/ ?
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# [18:58] <webr3> nvm / trust it'll be sorted out soon
# [18:58] <karlcow> webr3: "This is an out-of-date editor's draft. Please see the current editor's draft. Updates to this draft will resume shortly. Apologies for any inconvenience."
# [18:58] <karlcow> resume *shortly*
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# [19:03] <Rik`> webr3: for the spec-author-view, it is just the table of contents
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# [19:13] <webr3> Rik`, looks the same when i click through to other bits of the doc..
# [19:13] <Rik`> are you talking about the look?
# [19:13] <Rik`> or the content ?
# [19:13] <webr3> the look
# [19:14] <webr3> it "looks" like a post on a free wordpress account somewhere, not a spec, or an author view of a spec, or anything near anything of any standing or importance, shich is a shame
# [19:14] <Rik`> I think, not sure that it's a new look that MikeSmith is working on with some developers who complained about the default look of W3C specs
# [19:14] <webr3> no direct offense intended of course!
# [19:15] <karlcow> webr3, things which are dev.w3.org are editors drafts.
# [19:16] <webr3> yup I know, you know, most of the web doesn't - they just see w3.org and think it's official "hot off the press" version
# [19:16] <webr3> this is probably a moot convo tbh - unsure why I mentioned
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# [19:18] <webr3> yup.. if I google for "HTML 5" I get #1 wikipedia, #2 dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html - that about says it all to me
# [19:18] * webr3 wanders off
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# [19:35] <webr3> is there no head/master/fork/branch/merge capabilities on dev.w3c?
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# [19:40] <webr3> and just wondering.. how exactly can an editors draft go out of date, as in why is the editors draft not the editors draft?
# [19:43] <hober> webr3: hixie's work is in http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps
# [19:43] <gsnedders> webr3: Well, branches in CVS aren't exactly nice…
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# [19:43] <hober> webr3: as part of his publication workflow, changes end up in dev.w3 CVS
# [19:44] <webr3> gsnedders, good point
# [19:45] <webr3> hober, so I assume the "real" editors draft is on whatwg, and sometimes they are pushed to dev.w3 cvs, as in dev,w3 version isn't actually the editors draft
# [19:45] <webr3> hober, is the whatwg editors draft the editors draft of the HTML 5 specification, or of some other specification of which a subset could be considered HTML 5?
# [19:47] <othermaciej> the whatwg draft is the sole draft of "HTML5 (including next generation additions still in development)"
# [19:47] <hober> AFAIK there's no distinction between the whatwg spec and some kind of whatwg "editor's draft"
# [19:48] <othermaciej> it includes content that appears across several W3C drafts, including HTML5, plus some content that is not presently in any W3C draft
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# [19:48] <hober> part of the publication flow is that the various w3c subset specs get pulled out of it
# [19:48] <othermaciej> there is no distinction between Editor's Draft and Working Draft at WHATWG, it is just live
# [19:48] <hober> right
# [19:48] <webr3> othermaciej, hober, okay i follow re whatwg HTML spec, so then what's the stuff on w3.org?
# [19:49] <othermaciej> there are some automatic scripts that update the various Editor's Drafts in W3C CVS
# [19:49] <othermaciej> when Ian checks in to the WHATWG version
# [19:50] <othermaciej> A couple of days ago Ian stopped those automated updates and put a warning in place on the W3C Editor's Draft
# [19:50] <webr3> yup, I'm just totally confused as to what the w3.org HTML 5 spec is then.. is it the spec for HTML 5 (still in development) or what?
# [19:51] <othermaciej> the there are a few things at w3.org
# [19:51] <gsnedders> Alternative explaination: there's this "source" file which loads of stuff gets generated from. <http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html> contains everything.
# [19:51] <hober> it's a snapshot of some of the work being done
# [19:51] <othermaciej> there is the Editor's Draft, on dev.w3.org, which is the draft on track to become the W3C standard for HTML5
# [19:52] <othermaciej> and there is the Working Draft at http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/
# [19:52] <webr3> ok, so that will be HTML 5, as in the next HTML after HTML 4 ya?
# [19:52] <othermaciej> which is a periodic snapshot (though eventually it will be frozen and HTML development will continue for the next version)
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# [19:52] <othermaciej> indeed, it will be the successor to HTML4.01
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# [19:53] <webr3> okay.. think I'm following - so is the whatwg spec the editors draft for the w3 HTML 5 spec? (yes or no?)
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# [19:54] <hober> yesish
# [19:54] <hober> the editor only edits the whatwg source file
# [19:55] <hober> machines extract the w3c "editor's draft" from that mechanically
# [19:55] <karlcow> webr3, is there something which you need for a specific work? Or are you just asking by curiosity?
# [19:55] <othermaciej> the whatwg spec is source material from which the w3c editor's draft is (was?) created
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# [19:56] <webr3> hober, maciej - thanks for clarifying (~ish!)
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# [19:56] <webr3> karlcow, nothing I specifically need, would like to know what's being standardized and can be pretty much relied on like - but primarily just trying to figure out what the hell the situation is, as I'm sure you're more than aware
# [19:57] <webr3> from an outsiders point of view it's a bit wtf
# [19:57] <webr3> hence why trying to clarify in some way
# [19:57] <othermaciej> it can be somewhat confusing
# [19:57] <hober> realistically speaking, I think it's easy to remember whatwg.org/html5 as the spec URL
# [19:57] <hober> don't worry about what gets subsetted / split out over at the w3c
# [19:58] <karlcow> it's a live process (small p) for publication with improvements, sometimes errors. It has changed, and will change again. I'm pretty sure.
# [19:58] <hober> the whatwg spec converges with reality over time; the w3c spec hopefully will to, and many of us are working to make sure it does, but you never know.
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# [19:59] <othermaciej> otoh the w3c spec is the one that will most likely have a test suite that matches its normative requirements
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# [19:59] <othermaciej> so once it gets to that point, it is pretty likely browser vendors will run the test suite and change their code to match it
# [19:59] <webr3> yup the last thing I'd do (hopefully) is indicate that you guys weren't putting in hard work, I see the mails on the lists flying by and sometimes try to keep up :p
# [20:00] <karlcow> web3r, are you an implementer or a Web developer? It's a bit harder for developer, plus the current spec is not necessary the best source for a Web developer.
# [20:00] <webr3> othermaciej, cool that makes sense, so a [all the prototype stuff, experiments, stable stuff, trying stuff" is what whatwg, and a subset of that is going through standardization that will be implemented, tested and hold up as reliable over time ya?
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# [20:01] <othermaciej> well, nothing stops more experimental stuff from being implemented as well, though perhaps not as widely in that case
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# [20:02] <othermaciej> as far as creating content goes, if you want to deploy HTML5 content today, probably the best reference is one of the many books
# [20:02] <hober> s/going through standardization/going through standardization at w3c/
# [20:02] <webr3> indeed, but hoping the "HTML 5" final spec is reliable accross vendors ya? that's the goal of standardization isn't it
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# [20:02] <hober> (because it's also going through standardization at whatwg)
# [20:02] <othermaciej> such as http://diveintohtml5.org/
# [20:03] <hober> but yeah, for a web dev reference, markp's and adactio's books are the way to go
# [20:03] <othermaciej> webr3: in the very long run - probably, although it may be obsolete by the time it is completely final and fully implemented
# [20:03] * karlcow found http://webr3.org/blog/about/
# [20:03] * webr3 karlcow that's painfully out of date ;)
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# [20:04] <gsnedders> (Much like CSS 2.1)
# [20:04] <karlcow> webr3: revise your publication process then ;) I want to be more sure about which page I can rely on :p (kidding)
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# [20:05] <webr3> karlcow, I'm a developer primarily, around sem web fields, also member of rdfa wg, and generally ask lots of questions around webapps and related groups + note a few issues
# [20:06] <webr3> lol I'll grey out that page and stick a link through to a markmail search for my name
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# [20:07] <karlcow> ;)
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# [20:10] <webr3> tbh.. I still don't get the whatwg/w3c editors/chairs html/html5 thing, but doublt anything you can say will help that, or that anything I can say will make any form of difference to anything other than waste folks time
# [20:10] * webr3 meh
# [20:11] <AryehGregor> "It's complicated"
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# [20:12] * AryehGregor hasn't even looked at the latest drama yet, but gets the impression it's relatively big
# [20:12] <webr3> lmfao I remember saying that a few eyars ago about the ex
# [20:12] <webr3> re "it's complicated" not re "it's relatively big"
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# [20:16] <othermaciej> heh
# [20:16] <AryehGregor> I love how the IEBlog posts so consistently contain veiled snipes against other browser vendors.
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# [20:16] <othermaciej> it is kind of weird
# [20:16] <AryehGregor> "For example, this page incorrectly initializes a canvas library for users of any IE version, rather than using IE9’s native canvas support." Linking to arewefastyet.com.
# [20:16] <AryehGregor> Hardly anyone would even realize that was a snipe against Mozilla. Maybe it's not, and I'm just being paranoid?
# [20:16] <othermaciej> Apple would never let us blog stuff that snarky
# [20:17] <AryehGregor> It seems to be mandatory on IEBlog.
# [20:17] <othermaciej> I don't know if that is the most clear-cut example but I have certainly seen swipes
# [20:17] <AryehGregor> Yeah, this one was more subtle.
# [20:17] <AryehGregor> A lot of times they'll just say something sort of innocuous-sounding and leave it up to you to figure it out from some words they've linked.
# [20:18] <AryehGregor> Like I remember something on their JS engine that said something like "Our engine is fast because it's fully integrated into the browser, not pluggable like some browsers", linking to pages on Nitro and V8.
# [20:18] <AryehGregor> Something like that.
# [20:18] <AryehGregor> They do that kind of thing all the time, though.
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# [20:19] <karlcow> AryehGregor: I wonder who is writing the blog posts, but I can imagine that when you have been hit a lot of times because of the quality of your product with snarky comments, there is a kind of natural reaction, even when you are self control.
# [20:19] <karlcow> not necessary appropriate but understandable from a human point of view
# [20:20] <AryehGregor> karlcow, I'm pretty sure they're being edited professionally. They have a very consistent tone.
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# [20:21] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I suspect they are being written mostly by Program Managers on the IE team
# [20:22] * AryehGregor has only a vague idea of what a Program Manager might be.
# [20:23] <othermaciej> I am not totally sure what the role is (Apple doesn't have them)
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# [20:23] <webr3> sorry.. just started wondering why there aren't two distinct "HTML 5" and "HTML labs" type things that' don't touch, other than when something emerges as stable out of labs and in to html 5, something like mozilla + mozilla labs, or public stale vs dev beta?
# [20:24] <othermaciej> but they are people who are part of a product team and are responsible for among other things designing the product and writing specs for everything, but not any coding
# [20:24] <AryehGregor> webr3, basically, HTML5 started in the WHATWG and then moved to the W3C. In the W3C it has to follow W3C procedures and is answerable to W3C WG decisions and such. But the WHATWG version was never retired, so it lives a life of its own.
# [20:24] * webr3 freud'd i meant stable not stale
# [20:25] <AryehGregor> Sometimes the ones in charge of the W3C version disagree with the one in charge of the WHATWG version, and then sometimes they diverge.
# [20:25] <AryehGregor> In particular, the W3C process requires that the spec stabilize, so new pieces can't be added to it after a certain point. But the WHATWG version has some parts stable and some parts unstable.
# [20:25] <webr3> yup, but why not a stable and a labs type scenario, good feature in whatwg, let's standardize and push to official spec?
# [20:26] <othermaciej> it could work like that, but the actual situation is more complicated
# [20:26] <AryehGregor> The WHATWG just has one document for everything, and marks sections individually by stability.
# [20:26] <othermaciej> AryehGregor's description is more complete
# [20:26] <AryehGregor> Hixie prefers a single large spec to many small specs, and he runs the WHATWG in practice, so that's what the WHATWG publishes.
# [20:27] <webr3> othermaciej, I'm aware and don't want to waste your time on this or get in to heavy politics, it just seems that making a clear distinction solves a lot of problems, as a friend said you can remove the address bar in mozilla labs without problem, remove it in firefox live and you get a huge bloody mess
# [20:27] <AryehGregor> The W3C has tended to push for somewhat smaller specs, so the WHATWG spec gets chopped up, and some pieces get dropped for various reasons, and a number of minor things get changed (like dropping examples that W3C members didn't like, etc.).
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# [20:27] <othermaciej> webr3: ultimately, for that conception to fly the relevant leadership of the W3C and WHATWG would have to agree
# [20:28] <AryehGregor> webr3, specs aren't comparable to software. In particular, spec changes don't affect anyone immediately, and it doesn't make sense to have specs that contradict each other.
# [20:28] <webr3> othermaciej, not much I can say to that :)
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# [20:28] <AryehGregor> Whereas with software, shipping a new software version affects all users who download it in a very concrete way, and it makes sense to have lots of different variants of the same software flying around.
# [20:29] <AryehGregor> Basically, if you know the current "stable" version of the spec is wrong in some way, why would you *not* want to fix it? It's not like software, where a bug fix in one place could cause some unexpected bug in another place.
# [20:30] <AryehGregor> That sort of thing in specs is only likely if you make fairly major changes.
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# [20:30] <webr3> AryehGregor, unsure.. if specs changes don't affect anyone immediately, and it doesn't make sense to have specs that contradict each other - then why the hell does dev.w3 html spec point to whatwg one, and what's all the fuss about the TR and editors drafts being out of date about then..?
# [20:30] <AryehGregor> Plus, the intended audience for specs is much more likely to be able to spot bugs.
# [20:30] <karlcow> webr3: The W3C Process (big P) has been relatively flexible by accomodating different type of WGs. (Many would argue we are not there yet and that's right). There is a trade-off between stability and dynamic changes.
# [20:30] <karlcow> The Lab idea is indeed interesting and it is something the goal of Member Submissions, and Incubator Groups. There is a new proposal being drafted on the table which is Community proposal. We will see how it evolves
# [20:30] <AryehGregor> I haven't looked at the latest hubbub yet, dunno about that.
# [20:30] <webr3> AryehGregor, well you just mooted and disagreed w/ it all lol
# [20:30] <karlcow> s/something the goal/somewhat the goal/
# [20:31] <othermaciej> speaking as an implementor, I think having a stable branch is beneficial for specs just as for software
# [20:31] <webr3> karlcow, sounds interesting - is that the same community thing going on in w3 where there was a poll etc recently?
# [20:31] <othermaciej> it is useful to have a core set of spec material that's relatively stable and covered by a comprehensive test suite, as a stable implementation base
# [20:31] <karlcow> webr3, let me fetch a link
# [20:31] <webr3> othermaciej, speaking as a developer I totally agree, specially when you know the fine details have been covered
# [20:32] <othermaciej> sometimes fixes have to be backported from the dev version, but that will likely not be the common case
# [20:32] <othermaciej> when it does happen, it's good to have a process that ensures implementors are alerted ASAP, that test suites are updated, and so forth
# [20:32] <othermaciej> basically the same kinds of reasons that stable branches are useful for software
# [20:32] <webr3> othermaciej, fully agree
# [20:32] <othermaciej> with one big spec, it's hard to even tell which parts are relatively stable
# [20:33] <webr3> othermaciej, fully agree, again - it is a real PITA for a developer
# [20:33] <webr3> I hate implementing stuff then finding it doesn't work everywhere, or hardly anywhere even
# [20:33] <karlcow> webr3: http://www.w3.org/2010/07/community a DRAFT in big bold accessible letters
# [20:33] <othermaciej> you need to be very looped in to WHATWG to be able to tell which parts of the WHATWG spec are solid and unlikely to change, as opposed to which parts are still fairly experimental
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# [20:33] <othermaciej> that makes it harder to prioritize implementation work
# [20:33] <othermaciej> now, I'm not particularly looking to force this approach on anyone
# [20:33] <webr3> othermaciej, fully agree, yet again - it's kind of the point in standardization too
# [20:34] <AryehGregor> webr3, developers are probably not well served by reading specs anyway, unless they're about very old features. You really need compatibility charts of some kind.
# [20:34] <othermaciej> but I think that is what I find useful as an implementor (and moreso as a person who is responsible for prioritizing much of Apple's implementation work, in addition to doing part of it)
# [20:34] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, the stability markers in the WHATWG spec aren't good enough?
# [20:34] <webr3> karlcow, ty for link - that's what i was thinking of, remember taking the poll etc and have read the doc - quite excited about it :)
# [20:35] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: in practice, they haven't been that effective
# [20:35] <webr3> ArayehGregor, no tbh not from where I'm standing they aren't useful
# [20:35] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I find that I have to rely on my inside knowledge of what has already been implemented or shipped by other vendors, which things have significant outstanding feedback, which items are brand new, etc
# [20:35] <karlcow> in the past, when there was less products and less implementers, the errata page was here to keep people informed about spec errors http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr#errata But I guess in our stream world, a feed is more appropriate
# [20:35] <othermaciej> i.e. knowledge that is out of band of the spec
# [20:36] <webr3> what's useful is having a pretty reliable editors draft with standardized stuff in it that only has minor bugs
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# [20:36] <gsnedders> karlcow: It's a lot nicer for the errata to be inline
# [20:36] <gsnedders> (Like, I know this has caused issues with ES for me)
# [20:36] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, isn't that the case with any large new standard or set of standards, though? Is CSS3 much better?
# [20:36] <karlcow> gsnedders: yes :) in the context of now :) time changed.
# [20:37] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: it is hard to tell which CSS3 modules are stable without inside knowledge, though I can usually assume that almost all of CSS2.1 is quite stable
# [20:37] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, but that's only because CSS2.1 is ancient.
# [20:37] <AryehGregor> HTML5 has practically no parts of comparable antiquity.
# [20:38] <othermaciej> well, it has the HTML4-ish subset
# [20:38] <othermaciej> which is comparably old in the wild, if not in draft form
# [20:39] <othermaciej> CSS2.1 is actually an attempt to fix CSS2 which had the opposite problem - freezing too early
# [20:39] <AryehGregor> Yeah, but most of that is much more detailed than HTML4, so it's not necessarily stable.
# [20:39] <othermaciej> it went to REC before it had actually gotten full interoperable implementation in mainstream browsers
# [20:42] <karlcow> AryehGregor: because the specs were written with a different mindset. It was about creating markup languages, not implementations guidelines. HTML 4 has been the first to enter a bit more in the details of implementations.
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# [20:42] <AryehGregor> Yes, sure.
# [20:42] <AryehGregor> HTML 4 was not too concerned about detailed interop.
# [20:42] <karlcow> Then a generation of Web integrator have been familiarized with reading w3c specs. And now they have a culture shock. It will take time to adjust.
# [20:43] <karlcow> And I'm pretty sure the next generation will throw as much stone to what is done these days :) It's called history.
# [20:43] <webr3> dunno..
# [20:43] <webr3> I quite like reading a spec, implementing it, and seeing it work
# [20:43] <webr3> and have a clear readable spec (nudge MikeSmith)
# [20:43] <webr3> and one that doesn't crash my browser
# [20:44] <webr3> but then I'm just one of millions
# [20:44] <webr3> i also really like going through whatever/labs and trying new things..
# [20:45] <othermaciej> older editions of HTML were more concerned with defining the syntax and abstract semantics rather than detailed processing requirements
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# [20:45] <webr3> yup, that is a big improvement - much of it is a big improvement
# [20:46] <webr3> there's just no clear distinction between the "ooh try this" stuff and the "yes, use this" stuff
# [20:46] <webr3> imo
# [20:46] <webr3> this is wasting your time, apologies
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# [20:50] <hober> webr3: don't worry about that. this is IRC after all. What's it for if not wasting time?
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# [20:51] <webr3> :) well tbh I've got a to-do list longer than my arm and should be concentrating on that
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# [21:03] <AryehGregor> Only 26 posts? That barely qualifies as drama.
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# [21:29] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: we have certainly seen worse
# [21:31] <othermaciej> and it seems like a lot of them are a side-thread about accessibility for a potential warning message
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# [21:40] <annevk> why are people submitting implementation reports for the vastly incomplete HTML5 test suite?
# [21:44] <jgraham> annevk: Because W3C are encouraging them to?
# [21:45] <jgraham> I think it is pretty dumb myself
# [21:45] <jgraham> We are *so* far away from a proper testsuite
# [21:45] <jgraham> I assume we still will be even if we get the rumored test dump from an unnamed company at TPAC
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# [21:50] <Workshiva> 'an unnamed company', I like that
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# [21:52] <smaug____> annevk: where is the incomplete html5 test suite?
# [21:52] * smaug____ wonders how the review process of the tests works
# [21:54] <jgraham> smaug____: http://dvcs.w3.org/html/
# [21:54] <jgraham> smaug____: The review process doesn't work, really
# [21:54] <smaug____> "Not Found"
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# [21:55] <jgraham> But in theory people not from the company that submit the test look over it and check that it is right
# [21:55] <jgraham> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html
# [21:55] <jgraham> So far this has caused more false positives than it has found bugs, and hasn't scaled to the number of tests that we have
# [21:55] <jgraham> So there is someting to work on there
# [21:56] <jgraham> (also, there are only a small handful of people making a meaningful contribution at the moment)
# [21:57] <othermaciej> jgraham: what do you think would improve the process the most?
# [21:57] <othermaciej> more test submissions?
# [21:57] <othermaciej> more reviewers?
# [21:57] <othermaciej> I think realistically, a oomplete HTML5 test suite is a massive software project
# [21:57] <smaug____> yeah
# [21:57] <othermaciej> maybe not *quite* as massive as an actual implementation of HTML5, but close to it
# [21:58] <smaug____> it would takes years to have complete testsuite, I assume
# [21:58] <othermaciej> it's also hugely valuable
# [21:58] <smaug____> it is
# [21:58] <othermaciej> complete and credible test suites can improve interop more than specs
# [21:58] <smaug____> especially if the format for the testsuite is such, that browser vendors can run it automatically
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# [22:00] <othermaciej> indeed
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# [22:09] <Workshiva> Didn't Hixie allot 10 years for the test suite and implementation?
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# [22:10] <AryehGregor> Yep.
# [22:11] <othermaciej> btw I do think test-driving the early versions of the test suite is useful, though casting that as an "implementation report" is a bit silly
# [22:12] <othermaciej> it's useful because it can identify potential problems in the test suite or spec early
# [22:12] <othermaciej> and/or highlight overlooked browser bugs
# [22:12] <gsnedders> Nobody is casting it as an IR, as far as I can tell
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# [22:12] <othermaciej> so I can't really criticize people for running the test suite, even though it is but a fragment at present
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# [22:14] <AryehGregor> I wonder what will happen if I make my test suite work with the test-reporting framework that other people are using. Will it blow up? Take forever? Crash the browser?
# [22:14] <AryehGregor> Only one way to find out!
# [22:14] <AryehGregor> Although, it probably doesn't matter if I don't find some way for someone to approve them.
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# [22:18] <othermaciej> I might be able to convince some folks from the WebKit team at Apple to join to review tests for approval, even if they are not willing to actually write a bunch of them
# [22:18] <AryehGregor> What's an accepted pattern in JS for namespacing? Create an object and make everything properties of the object?
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# [22:19] <wolfman2000> Afternoon. When using the <audio> tag, what's the right way to determine if the full audio file has been .load()ed properly?
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# [22:19] <gsnedders> othermaciej: I think partly having a clearer set of rules of what tests must be would help.
# [22:21] <AryehGregor> wolfman2000, event handlers?
# [22:21] <gsnedders> Like, from an Opera POV, we want some single JS test harness, as we want to send test results back from JS and not do it by grabbing the text off the page and comparing with an expected string (like WebKit does).
# [22:21] <wolfman2000> AryehGregor: I figured this was more of a JS question, but it deals with an HTML5 element. I was hoping to get it cleared up here
# [22:21] <gsnedders> And I guess Mozilla would like something that can integrate into MochiKit
# [22:22] <AryehGregor> wolfman2000, well, maybe you could set an onload attribute on the element, is what I'm saying?
# [22:23] <smaug____> gsnedders: MochiKit or reftest, depending on the testcase
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# [22:23] <smaug____> though reftest is probably highly Gecko dependent
# [22:23] <gsnedders> And a lot of what MS is submitting would suit WebKit fine with their testing infrastructure now, but not really either Opera or Mozilla.
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# [22:23] <wolfman2000> Hmm...I'll see what I can do AryehGregor
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# [22:23] <gsnedders> smaug____: Well, I mean anything which from a JS POV can return pass/fail
# [22:24] <othermaciej> gsnedders: we can make use of JS-based harnesses, grabbing text off the page is in a sense just what we do to read the "pass" string
# [22:24] <gsnedders> From an Opera POV a single JS harness > multiple JS harnesses > reftests > visual tests > manual tests
# [22:25] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Well, yeah. But my point is you don't need any way to get the result except through it being output (which any sane harness will).
# [22:26] <micheil> hmm.. imho. the opera websocket tests are a little bit bad.. depending on php..
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# [22:26] <micheil> (or it did)
# [22:26] * gsnedders can't claim to know every testsuite anyone in Opera has written :)
# [22:26] <othermaciej> gsnedders: as long as the tests are reasonably modular, it should be feasible to put them into a variety of harnesses
# [22:27] <Ms2ger> smaug____, well, CSS3 test suites are going to use reftests, so we might as well use them for HTML too
# [22:27] <smaug____> Ms2ger: how will that work in other browsers without canvas.drawWindow() ?
# [22:28] <othermaciej> JS-driven tests are better than reftests IMO
# [22:28] <Ms2ger> Browser-dependent
# [22:28] <smaug____> ah
# [22:28] <othermaciej> reftests are hard to rreate and review
# [22:28] <othermaciej> *create
# [22:28] <Ms2ger> Depends on what you're testing
# [22:28] <othermaciej> because you have to make sure you have a completely independent way of creating the same visual output
# [22:28] <othermaciej> I suppose for script-driven tests you could just have a fixed version of the outputs
# [22:29] <gsnedders> smaug____: in our case, a harness external to the browser which interacts with it over the Scope protocol
# [22:29] <othermaciej> but then it's like WebKit text-comparing tests only slower since it has to compare bitmaps and not just text
# [22:29] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Agreed.
# [22:29] <othermaciej> introducing bitmap comparison into tests that are not testing layout or rendering seems wasteful
# [22:29] <Ms2ger> Obviously
# [22:29] <othermaciej> as well as needlessly fragile
# [22:29] <gsnedders> And error-prone
# [22:30] <Ms2ger> I'm not suggesting using them for anything but rendering and layout
# [22:31] <smaug____> html5 has parts which should be reftests
# [22:31] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Well, yeah. I don't disagree it should be possible to put them into a variety of harness (heck, we have very mildly hacked copies of jQuery, Dojo, Prototype's test suite harnesses that work fine for us), but it's more effort having to get each harness to send the results back.
# [22:31] <smaug____> reftested
# [22:32] <othermaciej> my point is, for script-driven tests, as long as they have some standard call to report their results, it does not matter much what the default harness is that is provided by the w3c
# [22:32] <othermaciej> w3c's should ideally though be an all-in-one fully automated harness that runs in the browser
# [22:32] <othermaciej> if browser vendors prefer another form of the tests for automated test systems, they (we?) can do the engineering for that
# [22:32] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Ah, I meant more the harness more in the sense of testing framework, where the standard call would be
# [22:34] <othermaciej> I see
# [22:34] <othermaciej> yeah, the framework should bottleneck to a function that reports pass/fail
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# [22:34] <othermaciej> which you can replace if you want to fit it into your own overall harness
# [22:34] <AryehGregor> What we need is a standard API, right.
# [22:35] <AryehGregor> I'm currently rewriting my tests so you can more easily plug them into any API you like, by making them more self-containing and splitting out the reporting from the testing.
# [22:35] <AryehGregor> self-contained
# [22:36] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Yeah, jgraham wrote one specifically for it, but as far as I've seen (though I could be wrong), not many of the tests use it
# [22:37] * karlcow remembers the Test Suite donated by MS (tantek, I think) and AOL (Beth Epperson) http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Test/HTML401/current/
# [22:37] <karlcow> ah tantek and others http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-testsuite/2002Jul/0000
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# [22:42] * gsnedders should probably post something to public-html-testsuite having spent a while recently dealing with the CSS 2.1 testsuite…
# [22:44] <jgraham> othermaciej: More people submitting tests would help for sure
# [22:45] <AryehGregor> Even if no one approves them? :)
# [22:45] <jgraham> More people reviewing tests would be good, but I'm not sure how we are ever going to get through the volume of tests that we need
# [22:45] <jgraham> The thing I want most of all right now is a system for linking tests to specific parts of the spec
# [22:45] <jgraham> So we can see a) what a person was *trying* to test
# [22:46] <jgraham> and b) where we have coverage
# [22:46] * Ms2ger notes that his tests link to the spec
# [22:46] <jgraham> it should also help determine which tests might be broken by a given spec change
# [22:46] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Which tests?
# [22:46] <gsnedders> What I want now is some way to tell whether a test is manual, has to be run over http, etc.
# [22:46] <smaug____> I wonder how to handle to possibly to-become-quite-common case where there is a test for some feature, but then the draft changes and the test isn't valid anymore.
# [22:46] <smaug____> the test should be hopefully marked invalid automatically
# [22:46] <jgraham> Philip`'s canvas tests come with an annotated version of the spec
# [22:46] <gsnedders> smaug____: Short answer, no easy way :(
# [22:47] <smaug____> but that might not be possible
# [22:47] <jgraham> I want to extend that to the whole spec
# [22:47] <Philip`> It's easy to get review for incorrectly failing tests - just get browser developers interested in passing everything, and they'll investigate the failures
# [22:47] <Ms2ger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-testsuite/2010Sep/0002.html
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# [22:48] <jgraham> Although for, say, parsing tests this will be a nightmare since the tests depend on so many parts of the spec
# [22:48] <Philip`> (http://test.w3.org/html/tests/submission/PhilipTaylor/annotated-spec/canvas.html)
# [22:48] <AryehGregor> Okay, what is it about my refactoring just now that caused Firefox to go ballistic and throw up zillions of bogus errors? In 4.0b6, this gives 9705 failures as opposed to 1744 before my intended-to-be-non-functional refactoring. http://aryeh.name/tests/reflection.html
# [22:48] <jgraham> Philip`: I don't suppose you are thinking "my goodness, what a lot of free time I had. If only someone wanted me to extend that system to work for the whole HTML5 spec?"
# [22:49] <AryehGregor> No intelligible error message, only: Error: [Exception... "'JavaScript component does not have a method named: "handleEvent"' when calling method: [nsIDOMEventListener::handleEvent]" nsresult: "0x80570030 (NS_ERROR_XPC_JSOBJECT_HAS_NO_FUNCTION_NAMED)" location: "<unknown>" data: no]
# [22:49] <AryehGregor> Error: uncaught exception: [Exception... "Component returned failure code: 0x804b0002 (NS_BINDING_ABORTED) [nsIStreamListener.onDataAvailable]" nsresult: "0x804b0002 (NS_BINDING_ABORTED)" location: "JS frame :: chrome://yslow/content/yslow-firefox-net.js :: anonymous :: line 476" data: no]
# [22:49] <AryehGregor> Hmm, let me disable YSlow.
# [22:49] <jgraham> s/?"/"?/
# [22:49] <jgraham> s/had/have/
# [22:49] <Philip`> The annotation helps with detecting when the spec changes and made tests invalid, because that usually makes the annotations invalid so I get an error message
# [22:50] <AryehGregor> How does that work?
# [22:50] <AryehGregor> I just quote the chunks of the spec I'm testing in comments.
# [22:50] <AryehGregor> So you can verify it matches whatever text I was working with when I wrote it.
# [22:50] <AryehGregor> Although that's possibly useless.
# [22:50] <Philip`> jgraham: Sadly not, although I don't think I have anything hardcoded to the canvas section so the code should already work for anything
# [22:51] <Philip`> AryehGregor: I quote the chunks I'm testing in http://test.w3.org/html/tests/submission/PhilipTaylor/tools/canvas/spec.yaml
# [22:51] <jgraham> Philip`: Hmm, OK. I will have to look again
# [22:51] <jgraham> Maybe my problem was that it seemed very complex
# [22:51] <AryehGregor> Philip`, oh, that's pretty cool.
# [22:51] <jgraham> It is very very cool
# [22:52] <AryehGregor> So your code actually grabs a copy of the test and greps for those strings?
# [22:52] <jgraham> It is highly useful when someone submits a less-good version of the same test
# [22:53] <jgraham> So you can point out that there is already an identical test that doesn't depend on manual verification
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# [22:53] <jgraham> (and on other occasions too)
# [22:53] <Philip`> AryehGregor: If by "a copy of the test" you mean "a copy of the spec", then yes
# [22:53] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I meant that.
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# [22:54] <AryehGregor> There we go, my refactor seems to be more or less functional.
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# [22:56] <Philip`> jgraham: It's not particularly clean code or anything, but I think all it's doing is iterating over paragraphs and checking whether their textContent matches the given pattern, and if so then it figures out which text node contains the <^> marker from the pattern, and splits the text node and inserts the links to tests
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# [22:58] <volkmar> AryehGregor: hey, about select.size, is your test checking that?
# [22:59] <jgraham> I thought there was some other thing it did, like looking for a magic keyword or so
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# [22:59] <jgraham> But I might be misremembering
# [22:59] <volkmar> AryehGregor: i remember when you sent an email about this test, i checked it and current Gecko had failures for select.size but they have disappeared
# [22:59] <volkmar> and the code didn't changed afaik
# [23:00] * AryehGregor looks
# [23:00] <Philip`> jgraham: If the pattern contains special syntax like "foo *must* bar" then it uses that to choose the colour to indicate importance
# [23:00] <AryehGregor> volkmar, maybe the spec changed?
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# [23:01] <Philip`> jgraham: There's also some hack so you can tell it to only match paragraphs where the nth previous node contains some text, to deal with non-unique matches
# [23:01] <volkmar> AryehGregor: btw, it would be awesome to have the tests running only when clicking on a specific button
# [23:01] <AryehGregor> volkmar, http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/rev/04935ba6a125
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# [23:01] <AryehGregor> Wait, wrong thing.
# [23:02] <AryehGregor> You said select.size.
# [23:02] * AryehGregor looks more
# [23:04] <smaug____> volkmar: was select.size the case you changed in gecko to follow the draft, but actually no one else, nor the web, assumes that behavior?
# [23:04] <AryehGregor> volkmar, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10354
# [23:04] <AryehGregor> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=5494&to=5495
# [23:04] <AryehGregor> Maybe that's related?
# [23:05] <volkmar> smaug____: we can see that that way
# [23:05] <volkmar> but i'm not sure "no one nor the web assumes that behavior"
# [23:05] <karlcow> shepazu: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davegray/5097025816/
# [23:05] <smaug____> volkmar: I might mis-remember the regression bug
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# [23:06] <volkmar> smaug____: we had one, true
# [23:06] <volkmar> but the js code was incorrect in the first place
# [23:06] <smaug____> volkmar: but the js code is worked in other browsers?
# [23:06] <smaug____> s/is/did/
# [23:07] <volkmar> smaug____: yes
# [23:07] <volkmar> we will have to think about reverting, for sure
# [23:07] <smaug____> and changing the draft
# [23:08] <volkmar> that would be sad because the draft is sane
# [23:08] <volkmar> except for one point i'm still not sure about
# [23:08] <Ms2ger> That's a first
# [23:09] <volkmar> AryehGregor: i don't think that's the change
# [23:09] <volkmar> it was with .size returning 4 for multiple
# [23:09] * jgraham feels like he should fill in the blank after "smaug"
# [23:09] <AryehGregor> volkmar, oh, hmm.
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# [23:10] <volkmar> AryehGregor: do you have a history of the changes in your script?
# [23:10] <AryehGregor> Well, that's tested currently.
# [23:10] <AryehGregor> volkmar,
# [23:10] <AryehGregor> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/
# [23:10] <AryehGregor> volkmar, http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/
# [23:11] <AryehGregor> Older history is at: http://aryeh.name/gitweb.cgi?p=tests
# [23:11] <AryehGregor> If that's it, maybe it's related to this: http://aryeh.name/gitweb.cgi?p=tests;a=commitdiff;h=cfd41b7cc2460dd5c8e2e9fb8e6ffd61b3130387
# [23:12] <AryehGregor> Or this: http://aryeh.name/gitweb.cgi?p=tests;a=commitdiff;h=de24a97ec132d7cca15eea75a22cc658079f5ae5
# [23:12] <smaug____> jgraham: :) Someone else in freenode is using smaug. But I think I'm the only smaug involved with web browsers, and didn't want to change nick just for freenode
# [23:12] <AryehGregor> Is someone else also using smaug_, smaug__, and smaug___?
# [23:12] <smaug____> AryehGregor: IIRC, yes
# [23:12] <AryehGregor> :/
# [23:13] * jcranmer is now known as guams
# [23:13] <guams> well, you could use this nick, I suppose
# [23:13] * guams is now known as jcranmer
# [23:13] <volkmar> AryehGregor: ok, it might be the first change you pointed out
# [23:13] <nessy> AryehGregor: you managed to get me involved in political discussion on public-html - no, no, noooo!
# [23:14] <AryehGregor> nessy, we all must make sacrifices for the common good.
# [23:14] <nessy> lol
# [23:14] <AryehGregor> Plus just gratuitously make sacrifices for no discernible purpose, once in a while.
# [23:14] <volkmar> AryehGregor: but the select.size reflection isn't clear in the specs: "The size IDL attribute is limited to only non-negative numbers greater than zero, and has no default value (unlike the size content attribute that it reflects)."
# [23:14] <nessy> I'd rather work on productive thing to be honest :)
# [23:15] <Ms2ger> What's unclear?
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# [23:15] <AryehGregor> volkmar, ack, that was a recent change.
# [23:15] <AryehGregor> I apparently missed that it was a functional change.
# [23:15] <AryehGregor> Previously IDL attributes had no default value separate from their corresponding content attributes.
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# [23:16] <volkmar> Ms2ger: does that mean that when multiple is set, select.size should return 1 (when size isn't set) because that's unsigned long limited to non-negitave greater than zero default value ?
# [23:16] <AryehGregor> What does it even mean for a DOM attribute to have a default value?
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# [23:16] <AryehGregor> volkmar, yeah, that's what the spec currently says.
# [23:16] <AryehGregor> It makes less sense than defaulting to 4, though.
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# [23:16] <volkmar> yes
# [23:16] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: what do you mean by "DOM attribute"? an IDL attribute or a markup (getAttribute/setAttribute) attribute?
# [23:17] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-button-element.html#attr-select-size
# [23:17] <othermaciej> AryehGregor, nessy: thank you both (and also hsivonen and others) for actually commenting
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# [23:18] <volkmar> AryehGregor: it feels like always defaulting to 1 has no sense and doesn't even help for web compat (because it's currently 0)
# [23:18] <nessy> actually, the one to thank is hsivonen - he actually read the document and gave some good feedback
# [23:18] <othermaciej> that is true, his comments were the most thorough
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# [23:18] <AryehGregor> volkmar, I suspect this change in the spec was a mistake.
# [23:18] <AryehGregor> Looking for the commit now.
# [23:18] * AryehGregor joins in thanking hsivonen
# [23:18] <nessy> I have read it so often that I cannot see anything any more
# [23:19] <nessy> it's also gone through so many iterations with many authors - it's good to get some independent eyes on it
# [23:19] <AryehGregor> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2010/004731.html
# [23:19] <nessy> it seems it needed the pressure to call it an "official" document to make people finally comment
# [23:19] * smaug____ wonders which document nessy is talking about
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# [23:31] <jgraham> nessy: I think a lot of people are semi tuned out of public-html now. So things don't always get noticed
# [23:31] <nessy> which is understandable
# [23:31] <jgraham> (I also agree with hsivonen's comments fwiw)
# [23:31] <nessy> it's also understandable that the implementers sit back while the users scramble over trying to agree on their respective requirements
# [23:32] <nessy> I also think hsivonen has many good points - and others have, too
# [23:33] <AryehGregor> volkmar, smaug____: What's the regression bug you were talking about earlier, related to select.size?
# [23:34] <nessy> I personally used the process of creating the document to listen to the users' requirements - I don't really care that much any more about the exact wording in the document, since I have heard them make their points and understand the intentions, which is more valuable to me - but it is important for the process and for W3C publications etc to get that document right and the group will be very happy to address all the concerns
# [23:34] <volkmar> AryehGregor: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=603141
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# [23:37] <jgraham> nessy: I don't really understand your point about process. Why is it important to get something right for "process" reasons? In general having documents with bigs lists of features without any implementation-level considerations seems very counter-productive, giving them any normative status doubly so
# [23:38] <jgraham> Understanding user needs is of course very important
# [23:39] <AryehGregor> volkmar, okay, noted that in the spec bug.
# [23:39] <nessy> accessibility users have traditionally been under the impression that their needs are not considered, and been told that they need to express them explicitly to make a contribution to the process of defining a specification - so they are trying to adhere to "process"
# [23:40] <nessy> unfortunately the word "requirement" can be very overloaded
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# [23:42] <nessy> Iv'e also called it a "wish list" in the past, but that's unfair to most of the needs expressed on that list, which are more than wishes and actual fundamental needs
# [23:43] <jgraham> nessy: I am not sure, but I think contributions more similar in form to that used by the rest of the community would work better. Specifically problem statements of the form "I have this problem using HTML video." possibly followed by "I need x to fix this problem" and then maybe a suggestion for the implementation details of x
# [23:44] <jgraham> At the moment we just have a list of lots of "I need x"
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# [23:45] <jgraham> With no real way to tell what the priorities are and only guessses at the actual problem being solved
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# [23:45] <nessy> that's because a statement such as "I am blind and cannot watch video - I need a means that allows me to perceive video imagery in a different" isn't actually constructive
# [23:46] <nessy> (insert: way)
# [23:46] <nessy> the priorities are on the checklist
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# [23:47] <nessy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Checklist
# [23:48] <nessy> it references the user req doc for more detailed descriptions of each need
# [23:49] <jgraham> From that document it is hard to pick say the top 5 features that one would add to the spec in order to imporve accessibility
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# Session Close: Fri Oct 29 00:00:00 2010

The end :)