/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-10-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Oct 30 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: tonyg-cr1 (~Adium@nat/google/x-ixdcyppknnemjqyr) (Quit: Leaving.)
  4. # [00:00] <MikeSmith> looks like it's trying to put that button as a background image behind the li for the "Search existing bug reports" text
  5. # [00:01] <MikeSmith> #query { background: url(index/search.gif) no-repeat; }
  6. # [00:01] <karlcow> annevk: is Chaals still the Opera AC Rep?
  7. # [00:02] <MikeSmith> karlcow: yeah
  8. # [00:02] <karlcow> MikeSmith: thanks
  9. # [00:03] * karlcow will have to read how to change affiliation again for groups (for Monday)
  10. # [00:03] <Hixie> DataTransferItem is now specced
  11. # [00:03] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  12. # [00:03] <Hixie> finally i can get to dropzone=""!
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  14. # [00:05] <MikeSmith> Hixie: おめでとう
  15. # [00:05] <MikeSmith> or rather, gratulálok
  16. # [00:06] <Hixie> thanks
  17. # [00:06] <Dashiva> I have a dream, that one day MikeSmith will start speaking English
  18. # [00:06] <Hixie> Dashiva: translate.google.com
  19. # [00:06] * MikeSmith wonders when drag and drop was first implemented
  20. # [00:07] <Dashiva> Oh, it's not that I don't understand, it's more of a comment on his polyglottitude
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  24. # [00:07] <Hixie> ok so now that we have a model to talk about, the dropzone="" syntax discussion is more interesting
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  27. # [00:08] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: How would you say "in meatspace" or "offline" or "in real life" in Japanese?
  28. # [00:08] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: cadw breuddwydio
  29. # [00:08] * Quits: meandi2 (~meandi@dyndsl-085-016-088-100.ewe-ip-backbone.de) (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
  30. # [00:08] <Hixie> welsh now eh
  31. # [00:09] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: Come on, "cadw" is so obvious
  32. # [00:09] <MikeSmith> Welsh is so cool
  33. # [00:09] <MikeSmith> people who get to speak Welsh every day are lucky
  34. # [00:09] <MikeSmith> Icelandic too
  35. # [00:09] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: dunno
  36. # [00:10] <MikeSmith> offline is just katakanized
  37. # [00:10] <MikeSmith> katakana-ized
  38. # [00:10] <MikeSmith> obvious?
  39. # [00:10] <Hixie> i love that google translate can translate into latin now
  40. # [00:10] <Hixie> that's precious
  41. # [00:11] <MikeSmith> yeah, the Latin thing is fun
  42. # [00:11] <MikeSmith> I sweat it is used to do Esperanto as well
  43. # [00:11] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: What other language would use cadw
  44. # [00:11] <MikeSmith> *swear
  45. # [00:11] <MikeSmith> I don't even have any idea how to pronounce "cadw"
  46. # [00:12] <Hixie> i pronounce it "keep"
  47. # [00:13] <Dashiva> Google translate doesn't quite manage the classic "catapultam habeo. nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam."
  48. # [00:13] * Joins: GarethAdams|Home (~GarethAda@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  49. # [00:13] <Hixie> hm
  50. # [00:13] <Hixie> what to expose to dropzone=""
  51. # [00:14] <Hixie> i guess first i should add a warning about type strings containing spaces
  52. # [00:16] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: about your question, I guess オンラインじゃない生活 or オンラインじゃない世界
  53. # [00:16] <MikeSmith> neither of which is terrifically poetic
  54. # [00:17] <Lachy> Hixie, what's dropzone?
  55. # [00:17] <MikeSmith> but that's the way I'd say it if I was actually trying to express it myself to somebody
  56. # [00:17] <Hixie> lachy: the attribute we're adding to make it possible to declaratively do the ondragenter/ondragover part of the DND model
  57. # [00:17] <Hixie> Lachy: see http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10712
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  60. # [00:18] <MikeSmith> Hixie: drag and drop originally came from IE, right? Do you know how soon after it was that other browsers started to implement it? I mean, how long ago? 2005?
  61. # [00:19] <Hixie> no idea
  62. # [00:19] <Hixie> webkit was first
  63. # [00:19] <Hixie> maybe 2005?
  64. # [00:19] <MikeSmith> OK
  65. # [00:19] <Hixie> IE had it in IE4 or so
  66. # [00:19] <Hixie> years ago
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  69. # [00:19] <MikeSmith> yeah, 2005 is what I was guessing for other browsers
  70. # [00:20] <MikeSmith> 5 year lag between it being implemented across multiple browsers and it actually getting spec'ed
  71. # [00:20] <Hixie> well i first specced it in like 2006 or 2007 or so
  72. # [00:20] <zcorpan> i thought firefox implemented it after Hixie specced it
  73. # [00:20] <Hixie> the new stuff i added recently isn't implemented anywhere
  74. # [00:21] <Hixie> zcorpan: yeah, iirc that's right
  75. # [00:21] <MikeSmith> oh
  76. # [00:21] <MikeSmith> OK
  77. # [00:21] <Hixie> in fact the new stuff was based on implementation feedback
  78. # [00:21] <zcorpan> opera doesn't support dnd yet
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  80. # [00:21] <Hixie> it's almost directly copied from something i think the chrome team first suggested in the whatwg list, which then had some feedback from various others
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  82. # [00:22] <Hixie> a few years back
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  85. # [00:23] <Hixie> oh i should make dropzone="" also let you say if it's a move, copy, or link
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  87. # [00:24] <Hixie> dropzone="copy text/plain text/html org.example.text file:text/plain file:text/html file:application/xhtml+xml"
  88. # [00:25] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  89. # [00:25] <Hixie> which would mean that the cursor would be set to "copy" if any of the items in the drag data store had any of the given types, where the types refer to text items except if they start with "file:" in which case they're file types?
  90. # [00:27] <Hixie> or maybe dropzone="s:text/plain s:text/html f:text/plain f:text/html s:org.example.text copy" - each type has to start with f: or s: for files or strings, and there can be a "copy" keyword anywhere?
  91. # [00:28] <MikeSmith> yipes
  92. # [00:28] <MikeSmith> that looks pretty complicated
  93. # [00:28] <MikeSmith> error prone
  94. # [00:29] <MikeSmith> are you serious about that?
  95. # [00:29] <Hixie> well in practice it'd usually just be dropzone="move s:text/plain"
  96. # [00:29] <Hixie> or dropzone="f:image/png f:image/jpeg"
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  98. # [00:30] <Hixie> is that that bad?
  99. # [00:30] <Hixie> i dunno how else to do it really
  100. # [00:31] <Hixie> i think we need a prefix just so that we have room in the lexical space to add features
  101. # [00:31] <MikeSmith> I'm trying to think of some precedents
  102. # [00:31] <MikeSmith> some other attributes with that kind of microsyntax
  103. # [00:32] <MikeSmith> and honestly I'm also thinking about, That's gonna suck if I have to be the one to write the datatype checking for it in the validator
  104. # [00:33] <MikeSmith> the validator really needs some additional contributors
  105. # [00:33] <MikeSmith> especially ones that are happy to do all the time-consuming and unrewarding implementation parts
  106. # [00:33] <MikeSmith> so I'm sure we're going to have a lot of people lining up for that job
  107. # [00:34] <MikeSmith> it might even surpass the long line of editors we have waiting to write specs
  108. # [00:35] <MikeSmith> Hixie: anyway, looking at it objectively, I guess it ain't so bad
  109. # [00:35] <MikeSmith> if it's going to be done declaratively
  110. # [00:36] <Hixie> it's simpler than the JS equivalent, at least
  111. # [00:37] <karlcow> dropzone="str(text/plain, text/html, org.example.text) file(text/plain, text/html) copy"
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  113. # [00:39] <karlcow> hmm not sure it is more readable.
  114. # [00:41] <Hixie> harder to parse, too
  115. # [00:41] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  117. # [00:42] <MikeSmith> Hixie: what does "link" do?
  118. # [00:42] <MikeSmith> like a symlink?
  119. # [00:42] * MikeSmith goes to read the current spec
  120. # [00:42] <Hixie> yeah
  121. # [00:42] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  122. # [00:42] <Hixie> think url dragged to desktop
  123. # [00:42] <MikeSmith> OK
  124. # [00:42] <MikeSmith> is that new-ish?
  125. # [00:42] <Hixie> nope
  126. # [00:43] <Hixie> link, move, and copy were the three types IE supported from the start
  127. # [00:43] <MikeSmith> man, I need to actually read this stuff
  128. # [00:43] * Hixie finds a bit he forgot to spec out
  129. # [00:43] <Hixie> oops
  130. # [00:43] <MikeSmith> or actually, remember it
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  133. # [00:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie: this is probably a dumb thought, but I would think it'd be a lot less error-prone if it essentially used keywords instead of mime types
  134. # [00:46] <MikeSmith> or commonly recognized extensions
  135. # [00:46] <Hixie> well technically it's whatever the author uses
  136. # [00:46] <Hixie> the spec doesn't require it to be a mime type
  137. # [00:47] <Hixie> it only uses mime types for things from the OS
  138. # [00:47] <MikeSmith> I see
  139. # [00:47] <Hixie> since different OSes use different type mechanisms for the drag-and-drop and clipboard mechanisms, and mime types are the least crazy of them
  140. # [00:47] <Hixie> that i have found
  141. # [00:47] <Hixie> and we need a single common one to use on all platforms
  142. # [00:47] <Hixie> for the web
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  144. # [00:50] * MikeSmith notices slinkcoding is here
  145. # [00:50] <MikeSmith> slinkcoding: hey, glad to see you here
  146. # [00:51] * MikeSmith guesses slinkcoding might either be sleeping or out doing something fun since it's Friday night at 00:45 in Budapest
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  158. # [01:20] <Hixie> i guess dragenter and dragover should be fired before the dropzone="" attribute is examined
  159. # [01:21] <Hixie> and the attribute should only take effect if the event is not canceled
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  203. # [04:08] <dominicdinada> Question with CSS, pretty simple and just looking for an easy answer. When do you use # or . or ? like does # represent a class or id type
  204. # [04:09] <gsnedders> dominicdinada: #foo is for id=foo, .foo is for class=foo
  205. # [04:09] <dominicdinada> then what does the classless foo represent ? just basic values ?
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  207. # [04:10] <dominicdinada> like h1, button, canvas ?
  208. # [04:11] <boogyman> `css3 selectors @ dominicdinada
  209. # [04:11] <dominicdinada> ok
  210. # [04:11] <boogyman> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors too*
  211. # [04:11] <dominicdinada> thank you for the quick information :D
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  213. # [04:13] <aho> classes are the perfect hook for css, ids are the perfect hook for js :>
  214. # [04:13] <aho> oh. left. tsk :>
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  249. # [09:23] <Hixie> nessy: if someone told me they wanted text that flew in as you describe, i would say "what's the use case?" and try to understand their underlying need. i certainly would not just assume that their need made sense.
  250. # [09:24] <nessy> sure, so that's the right question to ask :)
  251. # [09:32] <Hixie> the use case here is "be able to view video and listen to audio or do the equivalents when one is unable to use the relevant senses", however that's not what the requirements doc says :-)
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  253. # [09:43] <nessy> the question is what you do after that
  254. # [09:43] <nessy> what's the consequence of that need?
  255. # [09:43] <nessy> so the use case for the web is "I need to see text on the screen" - so we don't need any of the fancy html markup, right?
  256. # [09:44] <nessy> you dig deeper and you ask what they are used to now and you get much of what is stated there
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  258. # [09:45] <nessy> I agree that some stuff goes over the top, but so would any user asked for their requirements
  259. # [09:46] <nessy> so you start by satisfying the most important needs, one by one - I think you've done a great job at that, incidentally
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  263. # [09:59] <nessy> say, you mentioned you will be looking at websrt again - do you have a rough idea when?
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  284. # [11:43] <annevk> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39875964/ns/msnbc_tv-countdown_with_keith_olbermann/ -- whoa, I thought our elections were bad
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  290. # [12:19] <Dashiva> What does "revert backwards" even mean?
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  305. # [13:24] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  306. # [13:24] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  307. # [13:24] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  308. # [13:24] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  338. # [15:56] <annevk> haha http://html5zombo.com/
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  370. # [19:16] <Okee> Does anyone know of a credible textbook on html 5.0?
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  372. # [19:17] <aho> remy sharp, bruce lawson - introducing html5
  373. # [19:17] <aho> is pretty good
  374. # [19:17] <Okee> Is this actually a textbook as opposed to a reference book?
  375. # [19:18] <aho> text book (a well written one)
  376. # [19:18] <aho> it just provides some kind of overview though... well, the title gives that sorta away "introducing html5" :>
  377. # [19:18] <aho> but i really liked it
  378. # [19:18] <aho> read the whole thing in one go
  379. # [19:19] <Okee> Does it offer exercises?
  380. # [19:19] <aho> http://introducinghtml5.com/
  381. # [19:19] <aho> no
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  383. # [19:19] <aho> (not really needed imo)
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  385. # [19:23] <Okee> Thanks.
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  391. # [19:41] <Okee> Is anyone on here actually using html 5.0 in their websites?
  392. # [19:42] <Okee> I have attended a few presentations on html 5.0 and it sounds like there are still a few issues with Section 508 matters, but other than that it is ready to go.
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  451. # [22:55] <Hixie> heycam: given what you wrote about sequence<T>, it seems that FileList being a sequence<T> in FileAPI is a bug
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  473. # [23:46] <MikeSmith> anybody tried the new version of BBEdit?
  474. # [23:46] <MikeSmith> 9.6
  475. # [23:46] <MikeSmith> "A syntax table is now in place for HTML5, so that Check Syntax, Tag Maker, and Edit Tag should now behave reasonably on HTML5 documents."
  476. # [23:46] <MikeSmith> http://www.barebones.com/support/bbedit/current_notes.html
  477. # [23:47] <Steve^> Maybe i'm being picky, but I prefer it when release notes say "Edit tag will now behave correctly" rather than "should behave reasonably"
  478. # [23:48] <Steve^> Seems like a lack of certainty
  479. # [23:49] <Hixie> the latter is probably more accurate :-)
  480. # [23:49] <MikeSmith> CYA language I guess
  481. # [23:50] <Steve^> CYA?
  482. # [23:50] <MikeSmith> cover your ass
  483. # Session Close: Sun Oct 31 00:00:00 2010

The end :)