/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-10-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Oct 31 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:20] <Dashiva> "should now work" is also useful to mean "we've fixed all the known bugs, but we haven't checked the entire bug surface so it's quite possible more bugs with similar symptoms exist"
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  20. # [01:15] <Dashiva> hng
  21. # [01:16] <Dashiva> I thought insisting on publishing HTML5 as HTML4 was bad, then I read about HTMLnext.pdf
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  24. # [01:19] <AryehGregor> "Silos in the Working Group structure which inhibits alignment"
  25. # [01:19] <AryehGregor> What does that mean?
  26. # [01:20] <Dashiva> It means that SVG reinvents anchors instead of using HTML
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  28. # [01:20] * AryehGregor does not find any relevant definition of "silo" in the dictionary
  29. # [01:20] <AryehGregor> Is it Microspeak or something?
  30. # [01:20] <Dashiva> No, it's standard
  31. # [01:21] <Dashiva> You have siloing when separate groups/departments/etc don't communicate with each other
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  33. # [01:21] <AryehGregor> So it's standard bureaucrat speak, then?
  34. # [01:22] <AryehGregor> Why is HTMLnext.pdf written in bureaucrat jargon instead of technojargon?
  35. # [01:22] * AryehGregor grumbles
  36. # [01:22] <Dashiva> Standard anyone-who's-worked-in-an-organization-with-more-than-a-few-hundred-people
  37. # [01:22] <AryehGregor> Right, so bureaucrat-speak.
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  40. # [01:24] <AryehGregor> You know, I think I agree with most of HTMLnext.pdf, but I dislike it anyway because of the obnoxious way it's written.
  41. # [01:24] <Dashiva> It could have been the founding document of WHATWG for large parts
  42. # [01:25] <Hixie> it's only 7 years late!
  43. # [01:25] <Dashiva> But it's there, from Microsoft. I'd say that's significant.
  44. # [01:25] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/papers/opera.html is the actual founding document
  45. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> Well, it argues in favor of modularization.
  46. # [01:25] <Hixie> (written in html, not pdf)
  47. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> Also emphasizes tests, which the WHATWG . . . has not.
  48. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> "Simply stated, there is evidence of overdesign." +1001
  49. # [01:26] <Dashiva> Hixie's timeline has, what, 10 years blocked off for writing the test suite?
  50. # [01:26] <Hixie> yeah, what Dashiva said
  51. # [01:26] <Hixie> also, at the time the whatwg was formed, test suites were not controversial -- everyone agreed we needed them
  52. # [01:26] <Hixie> (and still do)
  53. # [01:26] <Hixie> (and work is ongoing)
  54. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> This appears to be arguing that the tests should be written along with the specs, not that we should all agree we want comprehensive test suites and then not write them for seven years and counting.
  55. # [01:27] <Hixie> (the fundamental principles of the WHATWG work however are still not clearly uncontroversial)
  56. # [01:27] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yeah, i don't think anyone disagrees with that position
  57. # [01:27] <Hixie> saying it should happen doesn't make it happen
  58. # [01:28] <AryehGregor> Unless you're a manager at a company who gets to tell your subordinates what to do. :)
  59. # [01:29] <AryehGregor> Or maybe the developers at Microsoft are the ones who decided to write all those tests, I don't know. But they say they'd like to submit them earlier in the process next time, which is nice.
  60. # [01:29] <AryehGregor> Go Microsoft.
  61. # [01:29] <webben> Dashiva: "HTMLnext.pdf"?
  62. # [01:29] <Dashiva> http://twitter.com/html5douche/status/29222926252
  63. # [01:29] <AryehGregor> (I'm not sure I ever anticipated writing the words "Go Microsoft" without inserting something like like "to hell" in there, but there you have it.)
  64. # [01:29] <webben> ta
  65. # [01:30] <Dashiva> I'm sure there's a more official link somewhere
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  67. # [01:31] <AryehGregor> I just used Google.
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  73. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> I guess there's no way to try BBEdit for free
  74. # [01:53] <Hixie> AryehGregor: nothing stopping them from submitting them right now, why would they wait until next time?
  75. # [01:54] <Hixie> anyway, i agree that much of what they say is on the ball
  76. # [01:55] <Hixie> and i'm glad they've finally joined the party (?)
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  79. # [02:11] <nessy> I'm not sure that document (HTMLnext.pdf) tells me anything new or even proposes a feasible process to fix things
  80. # [02:11] <nessy> I actually think the problem is that something like the WHATWG is missing in the W3C - a collaboration between browser vendors to determine which of the specified stuff will actually go into the browser
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  82. # [02:12] <nessy> it's not the individual specs that make a difference - it's the implementation
  83. # [02:12] <nessy> needs a trusted benevolent dictator to some extent ;)
  84. # [02:12] <Hixie> tim is the w3c's benevolent dictator
  85. # [02:13] <Hixie> but he works on the semantic web, not html
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  87. # [02:22] <MikeSmith> Tim works on a lot of stuff
  88. # [02:22] <MikeSmith> he's certainly paying a lot of attention to the HTML work
  89. # [02:23] <MikeSmith> the TAG is too
  90. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> nessy: how is that collaboration not happening at the W3C?
  91. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> fully agree the implementation is what matters
  92. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> and that collaboration among the UA implementors is what is needed to make it happen
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  94. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> nessy: or to put it in other words, how can the collaboration be made to happen better at the W3C?
  95. # [02:26] <MikeSmith> or what does it seem is preventing from happening the way it should be optimally happening?
  96. # [02:26] <nessy> MikeSmith: the collaboration between UAs is only really now happening again with HTML5 - I was referring to how there wasn't really any concerted progress beforehand, only little bits here and there without a bigger picture for moving HTML5 forward - and Tim seemed like he had lost interest in moving HTML forward and was rather working towards eliminating it
  97. # [02:26] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  98. # [02:27] <MikeSmith> I can't say I'd agree that Tim is doing anything to work towards eliminating it
  99. # [02:28] <nessy> seeming as Tim is not leading the HTML WG - which to me is the heart of the Web - it just seems that the W3C isn't really the right forum to lead the web - but I don't want to sound unthankful - the W3C has done lots of great stuff ;)
  100. # [02:28] <MikeSmith> I would think Tim's public comments indicate that he doesn't think people should be wedded to the XML syntax
  101. # [02:28] <nessy> s/seeming/seeing/
  102. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> I don't like that phrase "lead the Web" much
  103. # [02:29] <aho> i like the xml syntax :>
  104. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> personally
  105. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> I think market needs lead the Web
  106. # [02:29] <nessy> I said "leading the HTML WG"
  107. # [02:29] <nessy> ah … hmm...
  108. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> oh, I meant the "the right forum to lead the web" part you said
  109. # [02:29] <nessy> I meant technically
  110. # [02:30] <MikeSmith> I think technically the Web should be led by market needs
  111. # [02:30] <nessy> the market had clearly spoken in 2000 that video on the Web was needed - the only ones listening were Macromedia
  112. # [02:30] <MikeSmith> yep
  113. # [02:30] <nessy> and the same for many other features that did a lot more to the Web than the whole XML craze
  114. # [02:31] <nessy> anyway - I think we're now in a productive phase again and that's great
  115. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> yeah
  116. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> and we have Microsoft increasingly more involved in that productive phase too
  117. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> investing more in the Web platform
  118. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> and Adobe too
  119. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> for that matter
  120. # [02:35] <nessy> and Google :)
  121. # [02:36] <MikeSmith> yeah
  122. # [02:36] <aho> i still want jng back, btw :>
  123. # [02:37] <jcranmer> it would help if there were a standard to replace animated GIFs
  124. # [02:37] <aho> it's pretty annoying that there isn't any lossy image format which also supports alpha
  125. # [02:37] <aho> mng
  126. # [02:37] <aho> <:
  127. # [02:37] <jcranmer> apng
  128. # [02:38] <aho> you don't really want to replace a 5mb gif with a 4mb apng, do you?
  129. # [02:39] <Philip`> I don't really want people to use 5MB animated GIFs at all - that's what video is for
  130. # [02:39] <jcranmer> video is even worse
  131. # [02:39] <jcranmer> shall i use H.264 or Ogg Theora?
  132. # [02:39] <aho> webm
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  134. # [02:43] <aho> well, jng would cover some area which isn't covered by other formats
  135. # [02:43] <aho> to be honest it is covered by png32, but it's ridiculously big
  136. # [02:44] <aho> on some page i did recently there was a >300kb png32. it was the only choice. a quantized png8 didn't look any good
  137. # [02:44] <aho> a 70-80kb jng would have worked just fine
  138. # [02:45] <aho> maybe a 50kb one would have worked too
  139. # [02:46] <aho> makes their reasoning sorta funny, really. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=195280
  140. # [02:46] <aho> <:
  141. # [02:06] <MikeSmith> seems you can download a 30-day trial copy of BBEdit here: http://www.barebones.com/products/bbedit/demo.html
  142. # [02:07] <MikeSmith> appears to have pretty good support for new HTML5 elements
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  144. # [02:07] <MikeSmith> can be added through completion and such
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  151. # [03:44] <nessy> MikeSmith: I use TextMate for editing anything
  152. # [03:44] <nessy> including HTML
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  158. # [04:05] <aho> MikeSmith, try komodo edit. it's ace :)
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  200. # [10:18] <zcorpan> cure list bullets in HTMLnext.pdf
  201. # [10:18] <zcorpan> s/cure/cute/
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  225. # [12:20] <annevk> on my way to TPAC
  226. # [12:21] <annevk> curious about the XML vs HTML topic
  227. # [12:21] <annevk> but mostly looking forward to meeting people
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  229. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> annevk: see you there
  230. # [12:23] <annevk> MikeSmith, when are you arriving?
  231. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> I get to the airport at 22:30
  232. # [12:24] <annevk> ah, I should be there shortly
  233. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> staying at the "Hotel Mercure Brotteaux"
  234. # [12:25] <annevk> according to this email, I'm staying at "HOTEL DES CONGRES"
  235. # [12:26] <annevk> no idea how to get there and no idea how to get from there to TPAC
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  237. # [12:26] <hsivonen> annevk: I expect to get there by giving th address to a taxi driver and I expect to walk to TPAC
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  239. # [12:29] <annevk> the latter sounds great
  240. # [12:29] <hsivonen> aside: I'm shocked, just, shocked, wow, just, wow at JF talking about my "myopic view" as a figure of speech with a negative connotation when I actually have myopia.
  241. # [12:29] <annevk> I guess I end up doing the former too, though I was hoping to take a bus or something
  242. # [12:29] <annevk> already took a taxi this morning as I was way late and it was pretty boring
  243. # [12:30] <annevk> I wonder if JF is around
  244. # [12:31] <annevk> he has an awesome mustache
  245. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> annevk, hsivonen - I have to drop off. See you both some time tomorrow
  246. # [12:37] <annevk> good trip man
  247. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> cheers
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  271. # [14:54] <espadrine> Oh god, css gradients follow different syntax in every browser! And *they all suck*!
  272. # [14:54] <espadrine> Is there a hidden standard somewhere in preparation?
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  279. # [15:03] <TabAtkinsTPAC> espadrine: The draft standard at http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images is the official one, and it's what Firefox follows.
  280. # [15:03] <TabAtkinsTPAC> espadrine: Webkit's gradients were created as an experiment before this draft was written, and in fact inspired the current draft due to their suckiness.
  281. # [15:03] <TabAtkinsTPAC> espadrine: IE's gradients are some horrifying filter abomination, and shall not be discussed further.
  282. # [15:05] <TabAtkinsTPAC> espadrine: Opera doesn't have explicit gradient support, but you can hack it in via SVG backgrounds (which should also work in Webkit and FF, iirc).
  283. # [15:09] <TabAtkinsTPAC> The draft syntax may change somewhat to fix bugs and rough spots that have come up in implementation, particularly regarding transitioning/animating gradients.
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  296. # [16:11] <annevk> arrived
  297. # [16:11] <annevk> hsivonen, you around already?
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  300. # [16:15] <espadrine> TabAtkinsTPAC: thanks... At least there's one implementation!
  301. # [16:16] <espadrine> TabAtkinsTPAC: for what it's worth, they did quite a good job in removing the cruft from the initial webkit experiment!
  302. # [16:16] <TabAtkinsTPAC> "they" = me
  303. # [16:16] <TabAtkinsTPAC> So thanks!
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  365. # [21:24] <heycam> Hixie, yes looks like (re FlieAPI use of sequence)
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  400. # [23:12] <smaug____> annevk: Is http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#clone trying to say that cloning documents wouldn't be supported?
  401. # [23:12] <smaug____> Though, when cloning a document "new ownerDocument" would be null
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  405. # [23:28] <annevk> smaug____, I think we should support cloning documents
  406. # [23:28] <annevk> smaug____, there's some kind of hairy thing with DocumentType nodes there
  407. # [23:30] <annevk> smaug____, I think the silly thing is that adoptNode() would not work while importNode would
  408. # [23:31] <hsivonen> annevk: have you figured out, by any chance, if there's a way to get food near the hotel at this hour?
  409. # [23:31] <annevk> you have to walk quite a bit unfortunately
  410. # [23:31] <annevk> it's about fifteen minutes walk to the nearest district of kinds and I'm not sure what is open
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  412. # [23:32] <annevk> but maybe the reception knows some kind of snack place closer by
  413. # [23:32] <annevk> too bad you just came in
  414. # [23:32] * annevk just came back from dinner with the CSS guys
  415. # [23:32] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks. I'll resort to my snack reserve
  416. # [23:33] <annevk> whoa, Maciej is here
  417. # [23:33] * Parts: takkaria (~takkaria@isparp.co.uk)
  418. # [23:33] <annevk> I guess it makes sense, but still unexpected
  419. # [23:35] <hsivonen> the hotel network is sad. :-(
  420. # [23:36] <annevk> something doesn't work? or the speed?
  421. # [23:36] <hsivonen> drops OpenVPN and ssh over OpenVPN all the time
  422. # [23:36] <annevk> or the weird customized username/password setup?
  423. # [23:36] <hsivonen> that, too
  424. # [23:36] <annevk> ooh, I have not tried VPN yet
  425. # [23:37] <annevk> hopefully VPN works at TPAC
  426. # [23:37] <hsivonen> and the ethernet cable is dead
  427. # [23:38] <romeo_> Pure guys. Where in the world are you?
  428. # [23:38] <hsivonen> romeo_: Lyon, France
  429. # [23:39] * romeo_ has never been to France
  430. # [23:40] * Joins: robman (~robman@eth4853.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net)
  431. # [23:40] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@c-24-6-103-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: jamesr_)
  432. # [23:41] <romeo_> s/pure/poor/
  433. # [23:41] <romeo_> English is hard
  434. # [23:41] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  435. # [23:42] * Quits: Xano_ (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Kthxbye!)
  436. # [23:42] <annevk> romeo_:
  437. # [23:42] <annevk> euh, sorry about that
  438. # [23:43] <annevk> there's also lots of rain here, but sun is coming Tuesday I'm told
  439. # [23:51] <annevk> g'night all
  440. # [23:52] * annevk is gonna try to get eight hours
  441. # Session Close: Mon Nov 01 00:00:00 2010

The end :)