/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-11-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 05 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  15. # [00:06] <spk> hi everyone im doing some work for the ruby port of html5lib, is someone interested ?
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  17. # [00:09] <jarib> spk: i would be interested
  18. # [00:10] <jarib> been a while since i looked at the code though
  19. # [00:10] <spk> jarib: cool, im pushing to https://github.com/spk/html5lib/commits/spk-ruby if you have time to review
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  21. # [00:11] <spk> i dont know mercurial sorry
  22. # [00:11] <gsnedders> been a while since any looked at the code, I think :)
  23. # [00:11] <AryehGregor> If you know git, Mercurial is not hard to pick up.
  24. # [00:11] <mgdm> I find the commands in mercurial make a little more sense than in git
  25. # [00:12] <mgdm> (though I still use git)
  26. # [00:12] <jarib> spk: nice. won't have time to play until next week, but i'd certainly be willing to help out
  27. # [00:12] <jarib> amazes me that no one is looking into a portable C port though
  28. # [00:12] <spk> cool i you .patch files i can send it to you
  29. # [00:13] <jarib> or adding it to libxml
  30. # [00:13] <jarib> both options would make it very available from other langs
  31. # [00:13] <jarib> spk: git is better than patches :)
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  33. # [00:13] <jarib> i'd like to learn more mercurial though
  34. # [00:13] <spk> maybe waiting that the spec is finalized
  35. # [00:14] <spk> jarib: yeah :)
  36. # [00:18] <spk> is the Ruby code is generated by the python one ?
  37. # [00:19] <gsnedders> No
  38. # [00:19] <spk> s/python/Python/
  39. # [00:20] <gsnedders> The PHP, Python, and Ruby copies are all separate. The Python3 is basically generated by 2to3 from the Python one, though.
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  41. # [00:20] <spk> oki sometime its like it was a translate
  42. # [00:20] <gsnedders> In what way?
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  48. # [00:24] <spk> for example https://github.com/spk/html5lib/blob/0f3b0ead1a76c044fbbe8df411cf49e48598aa47/ruby/lib/html5/filters/rfc2046.rb
  49. # [00:27] <spk> and Python https://github.com/spk/html5lib/blob/master/python3/src/html5lib/filters/rfc2046.py
  50. # [00:27] <spk> look the same :)
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  52. # [00:30] <Philip`> spk: The Ruby one was initially created by manually translating from the Python version, I believe
  53. # [00:30] <Philip`> (and then it got mostly abandoned)
  54. # [00:30] <jarib> spk: what's your use case?
  55. # [00:31] <spk> oki
  56. # [00:31] <gsnedders> Philip`: "mostly"? In what way not "totally"?
  57. # [00:31] <Philip`> gsnedders: There were subsequent time periods in which people worked on it
  58. # [00:31] <spk> im using the gem for a Ruby project
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  60. # [00:32] <spk> https://github.com/spk/validate-website
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  73. # [01:21] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: quite large to offset the dependence on the PSVI
  74. # [01:21] <david_carlisle> But most people use a basic xslt 2 processor which has no PSVI dependencies (thank goodness:-)
  75. # [01:23] <Hixie> david_carlisle: thanks for the cc btw
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  78. # [01:26] <david_carlisle> It's too late for us as we've gone to REC, but can you arrange to get U+1F4A9 into an example in html5:-)
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  80. # [01:27] <Hixie> no :-P
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  82. # [01:27] <Hixie> some of the others maybe though :-)
  83. # [01:27] <Hixie> the HTML spec is full of in-jokes like that
  84. # [01:29] <gsnedders> heh.
  85. # [01:31] <Hixie> i need an arabic username for an example i'm writing
  86. # [01:31] <Hixie> something that isn't going to offend anyone
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  88. # [01:35] <david_carlisle> hixie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi ?
  89. # [01:36] <david_carlisle> no one could be offended by algebra
  90. # [01:36] <Hixie> that's a bit of a long name for a username
  91. # [01:36] <Dashiva> Just al-Khwarizmi then?
  92. # [01:36] <Hixie> by "arabic" i mean in the arabic script
  93. # [01:37] <Hixie> it's for a bidi example
  94. # [01:37] <david_carlisle> well its more than one name but I don't have the cultral background to cut it down (also I wasnt; sure if you wanted the arabic or ascii transliteration, hence wikipedia link which has both)
  95. # [01:37] <Hixie> and i learnt not to assume that something isn't offensive after learning about the weird rules hebrew has for numbering :-)
  96. # [01:37] <Hixie> david_carlisle: yeah, i've been crawling wikipedia for the last few minutes on the same quest :-)
  97. # [01:42] <jcranmer> I would suggest using Allah
  98. # [01:42] <jcranmer> but that might be slightly offensive
  99. # [01:43] <Hixie> i think i'll go with google translate's translation of "Ian"
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  101. # [01:43] <jcranmer> أنتاركتيكا ?
  102. # [01:43] <jcranmer> (supposedly, Antaractica in Arabic)
  103. # [01:44] <Dashiva> TabAtkins_: I must say, you spent a lot of time shouting into the wind over at saxonica
  104. # [01:47] <Hixie> the next two people to say anything get their usernames used as examples in this example
  105. # [01:47] <jcranmer> what?
  106. # [01:47] <jcranmer> what is the example?
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  108. # [01:48] <hober> yo
  109. # [01:50] <Dashiva> Good, safe to talk again
  110. # [01:50] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#the-bdi-element
  111. # [01:53] <jcranmer> so nothing I'll regret
  112. # [01:54] <Hixie> :-)
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  114. # [01:54] <Dashiva> My name appears enough places on the internet as it is, it doesn't need to be in a html spec :)
  115. # [01:55] <jcranmer> bah, stupid social networking ruining my rankings in search results
  116. # [01:55] <Hixie> Dashiva: you're already in the spec :-P
  117. # [01:56] <jcranmer> Hixie: you should have been evil and used the last two usernames
  118. # [01:56] <Hixie> :-)
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  120. # [01:59] <Dashiva> Hixie: Only the acknowledgements, surely
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  122. # [02:03] <Hixie> no
  123. # [02:03] <Hixie> the word "Dashiva" doesn't appear in the acknowledgements
  124. # [02:04] <Hixie> but it does appear in the spec!
  125. # [02:04] <Hixie> has done for some time
  126. # [02:04] <Hixie> ok i gotta go. bbiab.
  127. # [02:06] <jcranmer> see ya
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  138. # [02:44] <wirepair> everyone has probably already seen it but... http://www.iestolemylife.com/
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  306. # [12:17] <othermaciej> Hixie: I am still really wishing for a way to hide the warning
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  308. # [12:20] * othermaciej would pay money
  309. # [12:22] <Lachy> which warning?
  310. # [12:23] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html
  311. # [12:24] <Lachy> oh, that doesn't show up in the mutlipage version
  312. # [12:24] <othermaciej> with no way to hide it, it makes the draft almost unreadable
  313. # [12:24] <othermaciej> I guess I should use the multipage
  314. # [12:25] <othermaciej> except the multipage is out of date :-/
  315. # [12:25] <Lachy> or use whatwg version
  316. # [12:25] <annevk> which is probably why it does not show up there
  317. # [12:26] <othermaciej> I find the spec by typing HTML5 into Google or Bing
  318. # [12:26] <othermaciej> in both cases the W3C Editor's Draft is on the first page of results and the WHATWG copy is not
  319. # [12:26] <annevk> wait what?
  320. # [12:26] <nessy> yeah, that surprised me, too, the other day
  321. # [12:26] <annevk> Google is part of our cabal
  322. # [12:26] <Lachy> oh, that sucks. So many people being directed to an inferior version :-(
  323. # [12:27] <nessy> I have it in my browser cache :)
  324. # [12:27] * annevk thinks typing whatwg.org/c is faster than doing the whole search nonsense
  325. # [12:27] <Lachy> just keep http://whatwg.org/html5 in your browser history, so that when you start typing the address in your address bar, you get that as your first result in history.
  326. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> I had temporaritly turned off the automation for building the multipage version
  327. # [12:28] <nessy> I type "what" and it's there
  328. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> I guess I need to turn it back on
  329. # [12:28] <Lachy> oh, nice. I wasn't aware of the /c shortcut
  330. # [12:28] <annevk> same here
  331. # [12:28] <annevk> there's also whatwg.org/C for complete multipage
  332. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> I'm running the multipage rebuild right now, should be available in a few minutes
  333. # [12:28] <annevk> and whatwg.org/html is an alias for whatwg.org/html5
  334. # [12:30] <othermaciej> I think using a search engine with the term "html5" is totally reasonable and probably what most people would do, even if there are cool secret shortcuts
  335. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> update - http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/
  336. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> *updated
  337. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> regenerated
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  339. # [12:32] <Lachy> MikeSmith, shouldn't the warning from that multipage version link back to the multipage editor's draft?
  340. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> yeah, I suppose it should
  341. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> ideally
  342. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> I would need to make a change to the document build to have it do that
  343. # [12:33] <Lachy> also, is that warning only being added for use on the /TR/ version?
  344. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> yeah
  345. # [12:33] <Lachy> ok, so I assume it'll be removed from the editor's draft after that
  346. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> yep
  347. # [12:34] <nessy> excellent, that's what I expected
  348. # [12:34] <nessy> yesterday it was the other way around, which was kinda weird
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  350. # [12:34] <Lachy> so how is the HTMLWG able to get away with that? Marcos told me he tried to do something similar recently with one of his widget specs, and was told the warning had to go.
  351. # [12:35] <Lachy> is the W3C changing their policy?
  352. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> we are having a discussion about it
  353. # [12:35] <Lachy> ok
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  355. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> this could be considered a pilot maybe
  356. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> I didn't know that Marcos had run into the same problem
  357. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> but it's great to know that
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  360. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> because I have already been pointing out that it's a general problem we need to fix
  361. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> we had problems in the past with other specs in the webapps wg
  362. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> one specifically was somebody reviewing a draft of the XHR1 spec
  363. # [12:37] <Lachy> MikeSmith, is there telcon facilities available for the HTMLWG meeting at tpac this year? I was thinking about calling in for the DRM topic later
  364. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> we have a voice line in the other room
  365. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> dunno where the DRM discussion is
  366. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> which room it's in
  367. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> I mean
  368. # [12:38] <Lachy> I think the agenda said it was room B
  369. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> oh
  370. # [12:38] <Lachy> but I'll check...
  371. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> so in that case, if I am in the room, I can skype you in
  372. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> or somebody else could too
  373. # [12:38] <Lachy> oh, DRM is cancelled apparently
  374. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> we used skype to get somebody in for a discussion this morning and it worked fine
  375. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> oh
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  379. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> well, if there are others you want to call into this afternoon
  380. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> just let me know
  381. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> and I will make sure we figure out a way to get you in
  382. # [12:39] <Lachy> so what will be on instead of the drm talk?
  383. # [12:39] <Lachy> agenda doesn't say.
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  386. # [12:41] <MikeSmith> dunno
  387. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> maybe the wiki page is update
  388. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> *updated
  389. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> I'll look
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  391. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I'm guessing the testing discussion mighr run over into that time
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  393. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> as long as it's freed up now
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  401. # [12:59] <Rik`> karlcow: http://www.opera.com/mobile/next/ videos are served with text/plain instead of video/webm and so Firefox 4 is using the ogg version instead
  402. # [13:09] <Lachy> Rik`, I'll let our web team know
  403. # [13:10] <Rik`> Lachy: thanks
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  407. # [13:21] <Lachy> Rik`, the issue will be fixed shortly. Thanks
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  481. # [16:41] <lyhana8> hi, is there a better way to express this kind of résumé information: http://pastebin.com/20sg4fx0
  482. # [16:42] <lyhana8> to express 1) a period of time (a duration), 2) and replace attribute `company`, `place`, `role-description` ?
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  485. # [16:47] <annevk> lyhana8, that misses a closing tag
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  494. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen:
  495. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> ./htmlparser/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java:1228: method does not override a method from its superclass
  496. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> @Override public void zeroOriginatingReplacementCharacter()
  497. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> ^
  498. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> ./htmlparser/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java:5230: method does not override a method from its superclass
  499. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> @Override public boolean cdataSectionAllowed() throws SAXException {
  500. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> ^
  501. # [16:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: oops, sorry
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  520. # [17:27] <lyhana8> is there a better way to express résumé experience w/ HTML5? http://pastebin.com/h1VasdaJ
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  522. # [17:28] <annevk> I think some people would tell you to use a microformat or maybe microdata
  523. # [17:28] <annevk> and it is somewhat ugly to have implied paragraphs imo, but it is allowed I guess
  524. # [17:28] <lyhana8> annevk: nothing in the HTML* recommendation about duration?
  525. # [17:29] <lyhana8> " implied paragraphs"?
  526. # [17:29] <annevk> no, there's no duration markup
  527. # [17:29] <annevk> you will get an implied paragraph around your <span>s
  528. # [17:30] <annevk> see "3.2.5.3 Paragraphs"
  529. # [17:34] <lyhana8> any plan for a <location>?
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  531. # [17:34] <lyhana8> or should we use <adress> instead?
  532. # [17:37] <annevk> <address> gives contact information for the containing section
  533. # [17:37] <annevk> so depending on what it is for, it might be ok
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  538. # [17:56] <lyhana8> annevk: just for the location, university name and country
  539. # [17:57] <annevk> prolly just use <p> and <br>
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  543. # [18:05] <lyhana8> ok, thank
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  582. # [19:20] <karlcow> scrivener an authoring tool helping authors to write books. With a feature for exporting as ePub http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cgJ8x-R86M
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  606. # [20:42] <jamesr_> Philip`: yt?
  607. # [20:42] <jamesr_> Hixie: or you? got a canvas 2d question
  608. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> Just ask
  609. # [20:44] <jamesr_> what should happen when a page does .getImageData(20000, 20000, 5000000, 500000); ? the spec says that pixels outside the canvas should be transparent black, but do i really have to allocate a gigantic array full of transparent black pixels?
  610. # [20:46] <Ms2ger> Yes, I suppose
  611. # [20:46] <jamesr_> well that's obviously impossible
  612. # [20:46] <jamesr_> so my real question is what should we do about it
  613. # [20:46] <Ms2ger> Though you could use the hardware limitations clause
  614. # [20:47] <jamesr_> and do what? throw an exception, return an ImageData representing a smaller size, something else?
  615. # [20:47] <Ms2ger> Anything
  616. # [20:47] <jamesr_> that's not a very good answer
  617. # [20:48] <Hixie> we can't really define what you do when you hit hardware limitations, since you may be constrained in peculiar ways
  618. # [20:48] <Ms2ger> User agents may impose implementation-specific limits on otherwise unconstrained inputs, e.g. to prevent denial of service attacks, to guard against running out of memory, or to work around platform-specific limitations.
  619. # [20:49] <Hixie> what you _should_ do is return a gigantic array. Ideally, you'd do so by returning a lazy sparse array.
  620. # [20:49] <Hixie> But what you'll probably do is throw an exception like NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR
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  622. # [20:50] <jamesr_> having a lazily backed canvaspixelarray would be handy
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  625. # [21:03] <Philip`> Hooray, it's Bonfire Night, where we celebrate the capture, torture, unjust trial, mutilation and public execution of a man who fought against an oppressive government, by burning his effigy every year for four hundred years
  626. # [21:04] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  627. # [21:05] <Hixie> you don't have to celebrate it
  628. # [21:07] <Philip`> But the fireworks are pretty
  629. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> To be fair, presumably the government he wanted to institute would have been about equally oppressive, by today's standards.
  630. # [21:09] <Ms2ger> Real revolution is when the offices change, not just the office holders?
  631. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> On the other hand, if the British instead wanted to celebrate the successful overthrow of tyrannical British rule, you could always move the holiday to July 4. :)
  632. # [21:09] <jcranmer> real revolution is when you change the center of gravity
  633. # [21:09] <Ms2ger> real revolution is when you change gravity
  634. # [21:10] <jcranmer> or perhaps you could do nothing
  635. # [21:10] <jcranmer> and let the Earth revolve
  636. # [21:10] <jcranmer> it's so much fun to take advantage of polysemy
  637. # [21:10] <jcranmer> and as much fun to come up with a reason to use that word
  638. # [21:19] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
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  643. # [21:37] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.212.27) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  644. # [21:39] <paul_irish> Just a PSA: We've been using the #html5 channel for developer support and education, recently. If anyone wants to come over, idle, and share knowledge that's cool. Also feel free to route people there from here. :)
  645. # [21:40] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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  650. # [21:49] * tabatkins is stuck in the Brussels airport for the next 14 hours.
  651. # [21:49] * Joins: Craig` (~craig@host86-175-145-5.wlms-broadband.com)
  652. # [21:51] <Ms2ger> Do enjoy the waffles
  653. # [21:52] <tabatkins> If I find some waffles, I'll enjoy the hell out of them.
  654. # [21:52] <tabatkins> Sounds like something good to have in about 8 hours, when it's breakfast time.
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  657. # [22:06] <jamesr_> tabatkins: how does that even happen?
  658. # [22:11] * Joins: abarth (~abarth@c-67-169-68-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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  660. # [22:13] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@rrcs-76-79-114-214.west.biz.rr.com)
  661. # [22:20] <tabatkins> jamesr_: Originally I was going to fly to Brussels and arrive at 8am tomorrow, to catch my plane back to the states leaving at 11am. But I was afraid of getting held up by striking, so instead I took a train to Brussels tonight. Now I have to wait til 11am tomorrow to fly out.
  662. # [22:20] * AryehGregor enables tcpcrypt on his computer, for the heck of it: http://tcpcrypt.org/
  663. # [22:20] <tabatkins> 11am european time, that is.
  664. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> Your tcpcrypt session ID is: BF3894EA9BFD9A00A4D5C30B6A175E951E697E96
  665. # [22:23] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Does it work in a way that doesn't e.g. add an extra roundtrip latency to every new TCP connection?
  666. # [22:26] <tabatkins> Philip`: Because it probes for tcpcrypt support, I suspect there's an extra rtt.
  667. # [22:26] * tabatkins can't seem to figure out how to install it. The binary is some sort of ".linux" file.
  668. # [22:26] <tabatkins> Also: Bwahaha -
  669. # [22:26] <tabatkins> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dzww6/who_edits_the_w3c_specs_they_look_like_a_ransom/
  670. # [22:30] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  671. # [22:32] <tabatkins> Hrm, upgrading to Lucid somehow broke the "hold middle-click to make the nub scroll the page" behavior.
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  688. # [23:28] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
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  691. # [23:37] <hsivonen> I like the stray comment end that renders on http://www.iestolemylife.com/
  692. # [23:38] <annevk> tomorrow is going to be one of my lesser days this week
  693. # [23:38] * Joins: Craig` (~craig@host86-175-145-5.wlms-broadband.com)
  694. # [23:38] <annevk> I asked the hotel to wake me up at 4:45AM
  695. # [23:39] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  696. # [23:39] <tabatkins> hsivonen: The lack of nestable comments strikes again!
  697. # [23:39] * Quits: cying (~cying@173-13-176-101-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: cying)
  698. # [23:40] * Quits: Craig` (~craig@host86-175-145-5.wlms-broadband.com) (Client Quit)
  699. # [23:40] <annevk> whenever I read anything about waffles (as in the logs) I am now inclined to ask "do you mean carrots?"
  700. # [23:41] * Quits: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-mgdbxeultsxhlswj) (Quit: dave_levin)
  701. # [23:46] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  702. # [23:48] <annevk> kind of sad that no standards suck episodes were recorded
  703. # [23:48] <paul_irish> aww bummer
  704. # [23:48] <annevk> somehow this TPAC felt way more busy than the last one
  705. # [23:48] <annevk> and there was more commuting, which did not help
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  710. # [23:58] <Hixie> man, i can't even count how much time IE has wasted in terms of the impact it's had on our spec on html
  711. # [23:58] <Hixie> s/on/for/
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  714. # Session Close: Sat Nov 06 00:00:00 2010

The end :)