/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-11-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Nov 06 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:17] <jamesr_> i've got a question about table rendering
  9. # [00:18] <jamesr_> the question is how to render a table with multiple <caption>s
  10. # [00:18] <jamesr_> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tabular-data.html#table-model says "Associate the first caption element child of the table element with the table. If there are no such children, then it has no associated caption element." which implies there's only one
  11. # [00:18] <jamesr_> in the case of <table><caption>one</caption><caption>two</caption></table>, gecko and webkit will only render the 'two' caption
  12. # [00:18] <jamesr_> opera renders both
  13. # [00:19] <jamesr_> if the 'one' caption is positioned then gecko, webkit, and opera all render it
  14. # [00:19] <annevk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf06WJQ4FnE lol
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  16. # [00:19] <annevk> jamesr_, that is actually a CSS question
  17. # [00:20] <annevk> jamesr_, what HTML5 there says just has affect on the semantics of the table
  18. # [00:20] <jamesr_> if only css actually described how tables should be rendered :(
  19. # [00:20] <annevk> s/affect/effect/
  20. # [00:20] <annevk> jamesr_, yeah, someone should fix that
  21. # [00:20] <jamesr_> do any of y'all have opinions on what should happen here?
  22. # [00:21] <annevk> better to ask www-style
  23. # [00:22] <annevk> CSS actually says that a table can have multiple captions
  24. # [00:22] <annevk> "Specifies a caption for the table. All elements with 'display: table-caption' must be rendered, as described in section 17.4."
  25. # [00:23] <annevk> but then 17.4 does not define much
  26. # [00:23] <jamesr_> i'm not sure if 17.4 is saying that one caption box is generated per caption, or one per caption-side
  27. # [00:24] <jamesr_> also given that webkit/gecko do not render captions past the first one i'm a little wary of compat issues if i start rendering multiple ones
  28. # [00:24] <jamesr_> looks like www-style is the next step. thanks
  29. # [00:24] <annevk> it's been too long since I looked at the whole formatting/box model
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  31. # [00:26] <jamesr_> tabatkins: you have any opinions on ^^ before i spam the list?
  32. # [00:27] <jamesr_> i kinda think 17.4 agrees more with opera here, actually
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  42. # [00:58] <tabatkins> jamesr_: Spam the list. I'm not certain about the details.
  43. # [01:10] <gsnedders> I got bored in a lecture about strings today. I ended up implementing a LL(1) parser instead. I'm sure this says something about my course…
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  45. # [01:11] <Philip`> Strings as in string theory?
  46. # [01:12] <gsnedders> No, as in the string type in Python.
  47. # [01:12] <jcranmer> gsnedders: that's boring
  48. # [01:12] <jcranmer> go for an LALR(1) parser
  49. # [01:13] <gsnedders> jcranmer: WebIDL has a LL(1) grammar though
  50. # [01:16] <jcranmer> but LR(1) is more fun to code
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  53. # [01:22] <gsnedders> jcranmer: Well, maybe. But less useful for me now.
  54. # [01:23] <gsnedders> (Well, I mean, I could use a LR parser, but it's needless complexity)
  55. # [01:25] <jcranmer> obviously, you live in Europe
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  57. # [01:36] <tabatkins> So, anyone know a quick way I can spoof myself as being in the US so I can watch netflix?
  58. # [01:38] <jamesr_> VPN to work?
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  62. # [01:49] <Philip`> tabatkins: Set up an EC2 virtual machine and install a proxy on it?
  63. # [01:49] <Philip`> (where "Set up" means "boot" and probably only takes ten minutes)
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  86. # [03:32] <JonathanNeal> Can I write my own namespace and use it as a namespace uri?
  87. # [03:32] <JonathanNeal> Like document.createElementNS('http://localhost/jon.xml', 'jon'); ? I've been looking through the docs on how to do this.
  88. # [03:36] <Philip`> As far as web browsers are concerned, namespaces are just meaningless strings
  89. # [03:36] <Philip`> It doesn't even need to be a syntactically valid URI
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  92. # [03:45] <JonathanNeal> Philip`, when I make it null, I notice I lose the ability to work with the element in Firefox 2.
  93. # [03:47] <JonathanNeal> Basically --- I'm seeing if there's something someone has overlooked when it comes to getting html5 elements to work in firefox 2.
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  95. # [03:50] <JonathanNeal> For instance, http://sandbox.thewikies.com/xmlns/ --- exact same code, difference being the xmlns.
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  97. # [03:52] <JonathanNeal> In Chrome, Firefox 3, Firefox 2, the null namespaced element is totally bunk.
  98. # [03:59] <tabatkins> JonathanNeal: Why are you caring about FF2?
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  100. # [03:59] <JonathanNeal> Well, it's a small, small niche population of browsers that got left out of html5.
  101. # [03:59] <tabatkins> Unrelated: I'm having fun playing around with the mandelbrot set in canvas. I'll have a new blog background in a few minutes.
  102. # [03:59] <tabatkins> JonathanNeal: ...and?
  103. # [03:59] <JonathanNeal> And I wanted to help 'em out.
  104. # [04:00] <tabatkins> Why? They're scarily insecure, not to mention out-of-date.
  105. # [04:01] <nimbupani> tabatkins: I knew there is a very minor population stuck of solaris machines with custom build of Firefox 2
  106. # [04:01] <tabatkins> That doesn't change the above. Sucks that they're stuck with some custom version of a very old, insecure browser. They should change.
  107. # [04:02] <JonathanNeal> I could say the same for ie6, 7, and 8, but we took the time to hack them into presentational awareness of html5.
  108. # [04:02] <JonathanNeal> I'm just trying the same thing with Firefox 2.
  109. # [04:04] <tabatkins> You really can't say the same. They're certainly old and insecure, but they're not a tiny population. They demand catering purely due to their numbers.
  110. # [04:05] <tabatkins> You can do what you want, I'm just saying I think it's a waste of time. ^_^
  111. # [04:06] <JonathanNeal> So I'm trying to learn more about how createElementNS works.
  112. # [04:06] <JonathanNeal> because document.createElementNS('http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml', 'section'); and document.createElementNS('html5', 'section'); produce very different kinds of elements.
  113. # [04:10] <JonathanNeal> I've been trying to get any xmlns elements to work in firefox 2, actually.
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  117. # [04:24] <tabatkins> Reasonably happy with my new blog background. I'll at least keep it up for a little while: http://www.xanthir.com/blog/
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  120. # [04:42] <aho> tabatkins, http://i.imgur.com/RQLSj.png <- are you really satisfied with that? :>
  121. # [04:43] <aho> you probably shouldn't generate ~160kb of markup... especially not if it's that slow and uncompressed :f
  122. # [04:45] <aho> http://i.imgur.com/y5EVt.png <- looks a lot better while loading
  123. # [04:54] <nimbupani> tabatkins website is a new performance metric for canvas
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  126. # [04:58] <tabatkins> aho: Interesting. The background isn't working in FF, but it's not throwing errors either.
  127. # [04:58] <tabatkins> Hrm.
  128. # [05:00] <aho> looks better now
  129. # [05:00] <aho> but still awful ;>
  130. # [05:00] <tabatkins> aho: And yeah, I need to actually implement an archiving functionality, rather than just sending out every post I've written.
  131. # [05:00] <tabatkins> Look at it in Chrome instead. ^_^
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  135. # [05:02] <tabatkins> aho: It'll look better in Firefox now, since FF isn't doing the canvas for some reason.
  136. # [05:03] <aho> that style block at the very bottom... put that at the top
  137. # [05:03] <aho> i'm using noscript
  138. # [05:03] <tabatkins> Nah, that's not it. FF isn't doing the canvas on my machine either.
  139. # [05:05] <aho> try window.onload
  140. # [05:05] <tabatkins> Ah, that does it.
  141. # [05:06] <tabatkins> It also reveals that Chrome's canvas handling is *way* faster than FF's.
  142. # [05:06] <tabatkins> So I need to put in some dynamic scaling.
  143. # [05:18] <aho> first you should put all your styles at the top
  144. # [05:18] <aho> it's better if the site looks right right off the bat
  145. # [05:19] <aho> and not 10, 20, or even 30 seconds later :>
  146. # [05:20] <tabatkins> My styles are at the top. The only thing at the bottom is the style for the <canvas>, also at the very bottom.
  147. # [05:21] <aho> all styles should be at the top
  148. # [05:21] <aho> google says so, yahoo says so, and i also say so :>
  149. # [05:22] <tabatkins> That, um, doesn't matter. The style at the bottom doesn't reflow anything.
  150. # [05:24] <aho> well, before you were setting the background to black there... that looked pretty bad without javascript, that is
  151. # [05:24] <tabatkins> Yup, and I fixed that.
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  158. # [05:54] <tabatkins> Dynamic scaling works great now. FF properly throttles itself down to an extremely low level, while Chrome gets to render at closer to the initial settings on my comp.
  159. # [05:56] <tabatkins> That was a fun experiment.
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  161. # [06:09] <annevk> while Skype Access is somewhat expensive, not having to deal with the silly login screens is awesome
  162. # [06:10] <annevk> also, yay for waking up ridiculously early
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  343. # [23:53] <gsnedders> Hmm, interesting…
  344. # [23:54] <gsnedders> Accessing the HTML element in a same-origin frameset document is fine, but accessing the FRAMESET element in the same document throws SECURITY_ERR
  345. # [23:54] <gsnedders> Someone explain?
  346. # Session Close: Sun Nov 07 00:00:00 2010

The end :)