/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-11-08 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Mon Nov 08 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: Anti-X (~duckmysic@c3979BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  4. # [00:01] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GYKMMMDCXXXIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  5. # [00:01] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@12.130.118.2)
  6. # [00:02] * Joins: robman (~robman@eth4853.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net)
  7. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> boogyman, I filed a bug for you: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11254
  8. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> Alas, I expect WONTFIX, because Hixie is a member of the semantics mafia.
  9. # [00:03] <AryehGregor> Or at least a fellow traveler.
  10. # [00:03] <AryehGregor> (not to be confused with the Semantic Web mafia)
  11. # [00:05] <boogyman> I'm surprised you actually included all non-semantic elements :P even though <b> is equivalent to font-weight:bold, therefore is applicable with CSS
  12. # [00:05] * Joins: Anti-X (~duckmysic@77.18.210.12.tmi.telenormobil.no)
  13. # [00:09] <AryehGregor> You need some element to apply bold to stuff, though.
  14. # [00:09] <AryehGregor> CSS can't apply to unadorned runs of text.
  15. # [00:10] <AryehGregor> So you need some presentational stuff at a level below CSS, like HTML or Unicode.
  16. # [00:10] <AryehGregor> Unicode is totally presentational, but it has gaps, and CSS can't fill all of them, so HTML has to fill some.
  17. # [00:10] <AryehGregor> Pretending that <br> isn't presentational is just silly.
  18. # [00:11] <boogyman> unadorned runs for text?
  19. # [00:11] <boogyman> of*
  20. # [00:11] <aho> horray for white-space:pre-line :>
  21. # [00:15] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@12.130.118.2) (Remote host closed the connection)
  22. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> Runs of text that have no element enclosing them.
  23. # [00:24] * Quits: daedb (~daed@78-72-108-100-no178.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  24. # [00:24] * Joins: daedb (~daed@78-72-108-100-no178.tbcn.telia.com)
  25. # [00:33] * Joins: ako (~nya@fuld-4d00d482.pool.mediaWays.net)
  26. # [00:34] * Quits: aho (~nya@fuld-4d00d72a.pool.mediaWays.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  27. # [00:36] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-2-179.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  28. # [00:43] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: zzzzz)
  29. # [00:59] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@adsl-87-102-8-15.karoo.KCOM.COM) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  30. # [01:06] * Quits: variable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  31. # [01:24] * Joins: Xano__ (~Xano_@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  32. # [01:25] <Xano__> Is it usual to expirience a long delay between requestion the current position using geolocation and the excution of the callback? Sometimes I don't get so anything, even after a minute
  33. # [01:27] * Quits: Xano__ (~Xano_@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  34. # [01:28] * Joins: Xano__ (~Xano_@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  35. # [01:30] <AryehGregor> Xano_, maybe the user didn't give permission.
  36. # [01:31] <AryehGregor> Generally it will pop up a bar asking if the user wants to allow the location to be used.
  37. # [01:31] <AryehGregor> If not, then you won't ever get it. If so, you'll still only get it when the user gets around to clicking.
  38. # [01:33] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  39. # [01:33] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: looks like dud left already
  40. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> 2 minutes after asking his question
  41. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> He left and came back.
  42. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> oh
  43. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> [101107 19:24:36] * Xano__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  44. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> [101107 19:25:35] * Xano__ (~Xano_@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) has joined #whatwg
  45. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> I see he's still here
  46. # [01:34] <Xano__> AryehGregor: Yeah, my connection went dead for a moment
  47. # [01:34] <Xano__> AryehGregor: I got the permission dialog
  48. # [01:35] <Xano__> And I believe I checked the checkbox to remember my permission
  49. # [01:36] <AryehGregor> What browser?
  50. # [01:39] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
  51. # [01:40] * Quits: Xano__ (~Xano_@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  52. # [01:41] * Joins: Xano__ (~Xano_@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  53. # [01:41] <Xano__> And there it happened again
  54. # [01:42] * Xano__ blames his flatmates
  55. # [01:43] <MikeSmith> Xano_: why is that not just something that's implementation dependent?
  56. # [01:43] * Quits: Jedi_ (~Jedi@Jedi.org) (Remote host closed the connection)
  57. # [01:44] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  58. # [01:45] <Hixie> Xano__: it can take a long time if it's spinning up the GPS receiver, that might be it
  59. # [01:46] <Xano__> MikeSmith: I believe it *is* implementation dependent, but because I guess folks here have tested those implementations I figured I'd ask here
  60. # [01:46] <Xano__> Hixie: I'm testing in FF now
  61. # [01:46] <Xano__> Forgot to mention that, sorry
  62. # [01:47] <Philip`> Hixie: I didn't know GPS receivers used any kind of spinning gyroscope or flywheel
  63. # [01:48] <AryehGregor> Philip`, of course they do, how else would they attract the satellites' attention?
  64. # [01:48] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.96) (Quit: Die demokratieerhaltende Whistleblower-Organisation Krautchan freut sich immer über Spenden.)
  65. # [01:49] <Xano__> AryehGregor: They don't.
  66. # [01:49] <Xano__> AryehGregor: They use their built-in towel to know where they are
  67. # [01:49] <AryehGregor> But their towel ceases to function indoors?
  68. # [01:50] <AryehGregor> All my towels are indoors. Maybe if I brought them outdoors, they'd work as location sensors too, rather than just things to dry off other objects with.
  69. # [01:50] <Xano__> AryehGregor: Not if you carry it around your head
  70. # [01:50] * Xano__ is going to order a towel with "GPS receiver" on it
  71. # [01:54] <MikeSmith> revolutionary new browser whose only difference from any existing browser seems to be that it requires users to have a facebook account
  72. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> wish I could get investors to give me 10 million dollars to come up with an idea like that one
  73. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> You're supposed to come up with the idea before they give you the money, usually.
  74. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> ah
  75. # [01:56] <AryehGregor> . . . also, which browser?
  76. # [01:56] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-8-234.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  77. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> well, in that case they should be paying their 10 million to the Flock people
  78. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> because I can't see there's anything here that Flock didn't do 5 years ago or whatever
  79. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: RockMelt
  80. # [01:57] <MikeSmith> something Marc Andreesen is involved with, apparently
  81. # [01:57] <AryehGregor> It's remarkable how a name can evoke such visceral contempt before I have the faintest clue what the thing is.
  82. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> heh
  83. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> yeah, Marc Andreeson seems to have that effect on people
  84. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> oh
  85. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> I guess you meant the name RockMelt
  86. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> "Netscape founder seeks to revolutionize Web surfing again"
  87. # [01:58] <AryehGregor> "Hopefully as profitably as the last time"
  88. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> "RockMelt, a new browser that lives in the cloud"
  89. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> so that's revolutionary at least
  90. # [02:00] <MikeSmith> living in the cloud
  91. # [02:00] <MikeSmith> I guess that means I don't even have to download it
  92. # [02:00] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure there are all sorts of mythologies where various beings live in the clouds.
  93. # [02:00] <AryehGregor> And build castles there and everything.
  94. # [02:00] <Hixie> Philip`: they use hamster wheel
  95. # [02:00] <MikeSmith> Star Trek
  96. # [02:00] <AryehGregor> Unless Heroes of Might & Magic lied to me.
  97. # [02:00] <MikeSmith> cloud people
  98. # [02:00] <AryehGregor> It says titans live in cloud castles.
  99. # [02:01] <MikeSmith> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cloud_Minders
  100. # [02:01] * karlcow is using eagle feathers, skin of frogs, and moose horns to find my way around
  101. # [02:02] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  102. # [02:03] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  103. # [02:03] <MikeSmith> each Star Trek reference should have a special section that lists the name of whatever scantily but not too scantily clad alien babe Kirk has discretely implied sex with
  104. # [02:03] <MikeSmith> for each episode, I mean
  105. # [02:04] <Philip`> http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/SuperNES/ChronoTrigger-12000BC-KingdomOfZeal.png - they even had cloud castles in caveman times
  106. # [02:05] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@p4100-ipbf8005marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  107. # [02:05] * Joins: Rik`_ (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  108. # [02:05] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  109. # [02:05] * Parts: agektmr (~Adium@p4100-ipbf8005marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  110. # [02:05] <AryehGregor> Living in the cloud seems impractical. They aren't dense enough to provide sound structural support.
  111. # [02:06] <AryehGregor> I've heard that the atmosphere of Venus can be dense enough for habitation, though. Maybe they mean the clouds of Venus.
  112. # [02:07] <Philip`> Why do you need structural support?
  113. # [02:07] <AryehGregor> http://www.universetoday.com/15570/colonizing-venus-with-floating-cities/
  114. # [02:07] <Philip`> Just use something equivalent to a helicopter
  115. # [02:07] <Philip`> plus a clever refuelling system
  116. # [02:07] <AryehGregor> Then you're really only using the cloud for what, cover from potential enemies? Otherwise you could just as well use any old patch of sky.
  117. # [02:07] <Philip`> Or, I suppose, a hot air balloon
  118. # [02:08] <Philip`> Use the cloud for fresh water
  119. # [02:10] <AryehGregor> Hmm, I see.
  120. # [02:10] <AryehGregor> What sort of cloud would you want? I imagine more like cumulus or stratus clouds.
  121. # [02:10] <AryehGregor> What do you do if the cloud dissipates?
  122. # [02:12] <Philip`> You migrate to another cloud
  123. # [02:12] <AryehGregor> Sounds great. How much does it cost to sign up?
  124. # [02:13] <MikeSmith> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_in_the_Sky
  125. # [02:13] <Philip`> That's the beauty of it - you only have to pay for what you use
  126. # [02:13] <MikeSmith> Laputa
  127. # [02:13] <Philip`> MikeSmith: They totally stole that from Gulliver :-(
  128. # [02:14] <MikeSmith> most of Miyazaki films are based on ideas from somebody else
  129. # [02:15] <MikeSmith> but he just uses the idea to hang all kinds of other stuff on
  130. # [02:15] <Philip`> Better not hang too much stuff on, or it'll fall out of the sky
  131. # [02:15] <MikeSmith> he sort of just keeps making the same movie, and just changing the story a little
  132. # [02:16] <MikeSmith> dudes
  133. # [02:16] <MikeSmith> "HTML 5 is the glue for the cloud, says Ballmer2
  134. # [02:16] <AryehGregor> That's mixing your metaphors all right.
  135. # [02:16] <MikeSmith> *Ballmer
  136. # [02:17] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: he's clearly anticipated already the problem you described
  137. # [02:17] <MikeSmith> the solution is glue
  138. # [02:17] <MikeSmith> you just pump a bunch of glue into the cloud
  139. # [02:17] <MikeSmith> and that glue is made of pure unadulterated HTML5
  140. # [02:20] <MikeSmith> man, Alexander Clauss is still at it with iCab
  141. # [02:20] <MikeSmith> http://pmptoday.com/apple/6379
  142. # [02:20] <MikeSmith> "iCab Mobile is a web browser for the iPhone and iPod Touch"
  143. # [02:21] <AryehGregor> Who can fail to be impressed by the stunning feature list? I mean, just look at the first (thus presumably most important) one: "iCab Mobile comes with several default search engines you can choose from. You can easily add new search engines. Search suggestions from google and yahoo can be activated. It’s also possible to search within a web page."
  144. # [02:21] <AryehGregor> . . . actually, maybe that is a non-ubiquitous feature for mobile browsers. :(
  145. # [02:22] <AryehGregor> "- Kiosk Mode – a restricted variation of the fullscreen mode for Kiosk environments." For iPhone kiosks?
  146. # [02:24] * Quits: Anti-X (~duckmysic@77.18.210.12.tmi.telenormobil.no) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  147. # [02:27] <MikeSmith> iCab was a lot more impressive before he switched from developing and maintaining his own browser engine
  148. # [02:28] <MikeSmith> I always thought it was pretty amazing that he managed to do that all
  149. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> anybody know what the deal is with Chrome's "integrated PDF viewer"?
  150. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> http://chrome.blogspot.com/2010/11/pdf-goodness-in-chrome.html
  151. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> I mean, what library they are using
  152. # [02:32] <robman> hey MikeSmith - how's it going?
  153. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> oh, and it's also using Pepper?
  154. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> robman: going good
  155. # [02:33] <robman> sorry i disappeared mid conversation
  156. # [02:33] <robman> been swamped all last week 8/
  157. # [02:33] <karlcow> Now that all big marketing machines are full throttle toward html5… I fear the future of html. I might finally regret Web Services and Co. for attention attractors
  158. # [02:33] <MikeSmith> yeah, last time you were here I think I was asking you what this "trigger" thing was in your slides
  159. # [02:34] <robman> karlcow HTML5 is now almost in the corporate bingo pool 8)
  160. # [02:34] <robman> MikeSmith hrm...the idea was that a pattern language could be used to define mappings from "sensor data bundle" patterns to "web requests"
  161. # [02:34] <robman> loosely described as a triffer
  162. # [02:34] <robman> s/ff/gg/
  163. # [02:35] <robman> hey...what was that IOT conference in japan you were mentioning too
  164. # [02:35] <MikeSmith> http://www.iot2010.org/
  165. # [02:36] <robman> cool..t.
  166. # [02:36] <robman> a
  167. # [02:37] <robman> gah...too soon...can't make it 8(
  168. # [02:38] * robman looks to see if it's streaming?
  169. # [02:39] <MikeSmith> there's a guy named Dominique Guinard in Zurich who has been doing some interesting work
  170. # [02:39] <MikeSmith> and who will be at that event
  171. # [02:39] <MikeSmith> http://www.webofthings.com/ is one of the things he's involved with
  172. # [02:40] <robman> ta
  173. # [02:40] <robman> oooh...interesting 8)
  174. # [02:41] <robman> hey MikeSmith - is there any work going on to create a single sensors API (e.g. integrating SSN-XG, DAPI, Video/Audio, etc) ?
  175. # [02:42] <MikeSmith> no idea
  176. # [02:42] <MikeSmith> I don't know what SSN-XG or DAPI are
  177. # [02:42] <robman> 8)
  178. # [02:43] <robman> SSN-XG is the Semantic Sensor Network XG and DAPI is the Device API WG
  179. # [02:43] <robman> nevermind 8)
  180. # [02:43] * Quits: Xano__ (~Xano_@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: It's beer o'clock!)
  181. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> ah
  182. # [02:43] * robman crawls back under his rock
  183. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> well, my sense is that SSN-XG is going nowhere
  184. # [02:43] <robman> i have heard it's at a "turning point"
  185. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> heh
  186. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> I guess that's a way to describe it
  187. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> I know Laurent Lefort has put a lot of work into it
  188. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> but it does not seem to have generated a lot of interest so far
  189. # [02:46] <robman> 8/
  190. # [02:48] <MikeSmith> as far as Device APIs WG and work going on with video/audio APIs in other groups, I can't say that we are making a concerted effort at coordination
  191. # [02:49] <MikeSmith> we so far have one instance of an API that started life in the DAP WG but subsequently moved out completely when greater vendor interest in it developed
  192. # [02:49] <MikeSmith> which is the File API
  193. # [02:50] <MikeSmith> and which is now looking like it's on a path to eventually becoming a part of the core Web platform
  194. # [02:52] <robman> hrm...ok
  195. # [02:53] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  196. # [02:55] <MikeSmith> in other news, I see Eric Lawrence is still doing regular updates to Fiddler
  197. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> http://www.fiddler2.com/Fiddler/changelog.asp#v2
  198. # [04:59] * Disconnected
  199. # [05:00] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  200. # [05:00] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  201. # [05:00] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  202. # [05:00] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
  203. # [05:04] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@99-59-125-34.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
  204. # [05:11] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: Now time for the weather. Tiffany?)
  205. # [05:23] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  206. # [05:23] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  207. # [05:24] * Quits: ChrisPage (~chris@CPE-61-9-185-15.static.vic.bigpond.net.au) (Quit: ChrisPage)
  208. # [05:28] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-227-147.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  209. # [05:28] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@64.196.246.2)
  210. # [05:31] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-2-179.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  211. # [05:31] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  212. # [05:38] * abarth is now known as abarth|melting
  213. # [05:39] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  214. # [05:43] * Joins: aho (~nya@fuld-4d00d684.pool.mediaWays.net)
  215. # [05:45] * Quits: ako (~nya@fuld-4d00d482.pool.mediaWays.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  216. # [05:50] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.153.2) (Quit: boaz)
  217. # [06:29] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Nov/0061.html was another useful outcome of the meeting
  218. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> oh wow
  219. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> i just noticed this:
  220. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/2010Nov/0000.html
  221. # [06:31] <MikeSmith> from James Clark
  222. # [06:32] <MikeSmith> on how to get an outline for a "chunk" that you want to be the entire content of a page
  223. # [06:32] <MikeSmith> proposing a "nosection" boolean attribute on <body> as possible solution
  224. # [06:36] * Quits: beverloo (~peter@5ED75878.cm-7-8b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  225. # [07:01] * Joins: Ankheg (~Miranda@fs91-201-3-30.dubna-net.ru)
  226. # [07:09] * Quits: robman (~robman@eth4853.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  227. # [07:12] * Joins: mokush (~quassel@86.127.164.103)
  228. # [07:14] * Quits: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  229. # [07:15] * Joins: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net)
  230. # [07:16] * Joins: rimantas (~rimliu@lan-84-240-20-219.vln.skynet.lt)
  231. # [07:27] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@c-24-6-103-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: jamesr_)
  232. # [07:28] * Quits: gavin__ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  233. # [07:32] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  234. # [07:42] * Quits: sean` (~Sean@D97A9F8D.cm-3-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Leaving)
  235. # [07:54] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  236. # [07:56] * Quits: nimbupani (~Adium@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  237. # [07:57] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  238. # [08:01] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@86.127.164.103) (Remote host closed the connection)
  239. # [08:09] * Quits: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  240. # [08:13] * Joins: nimbupani (~Adium@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  241. # [08:13] * Joins: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net)
  242. # [08:16] * Quits: nimbupani (~Adium@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  243. # [08:22] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  244. # [08:23] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  245. # [08:27] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Disconnected by services)
  246. # [08:27] * Joins: gavin__ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  247. # [08:34] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  248. # [08:36] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.188.238) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  249. # [08:38] * Joins: reni (~reni@sedkit.inf.u-szeged.hu)
  250. # [08:39] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  251. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> krijnh: I would like to say I meant that tweet sarcastically
  252. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> btw, thanks for tweeting in something other than English
  253. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> or not in English exclusively at least
  254. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> I wish more people would do that
  255. # [08:40] * Joins: peterhil (~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  256. # [08:40] * Quits: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  257. # [08:44] * Joins: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net)
  258. # [08:44] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  259. # [08:45] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@ip-81-11-181-178.dsl.scarlet.be)
  260. # [08:46] * Quits: gavin__ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  261. # [08:52] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  262. # [08:55] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  263. # [09:10] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@64.196.246.2) (Remote host closed the connection)
  264. # [09:11] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~henrik@80.199.116.190.static.peytz.dk)
  265. # [09:12] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi)
  266. # [09:14] * Quits: peterhil (~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Must not waste too much time here...)
  267. # [09:18] * Joins: peterhil (~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  268. # [09:20] * Quits: peterhil (~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Client Quit)
  269. # [09:22] <annevk> Unicode is presentational? Where does that come from?
  270. # [09:26] <othermaciej> Aryeh's message in that regard seems confused
  271. # [09:27] <othermaciej> characters are almost by definition semantic, not presentational, so I would consider a tag equivalent to a character to be semantic
  272. # [09:27] <annevk> yeah, the presentation is in the glyph
  273. # [09:28] <annevk> of course, with some characters the line is somewhat blurry, but still
  274. # [09:28] * Joins: Xano_ (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  275. # [09:36] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl)
  276. # [09:42] <jgraham> So, anyone want to summarise what I missed in the last week in about two sentences?
  277. # [09:42] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@92.86.243.219)
  278. # [09:44] <annevk> sad stuff on ietf-http-wg
  279. # [09:44] <annevk> "I even tried calling Chase customer service about the mixed content
  280. # [09:44] <annevk> warnings on the login page to their banking web site. They told me to
  281. # [09:44] <annevk> use Firefox because the warning didn't show in that browser (this was
  282. # [09:44] <annevk> a case where Chrome's mixed content detector was more accurate than
  283. # [09:44] <annevk> Firefox's in detecting the vulnerability)."
  284. # [09:44] <annevk> though not entirely surprising, my bank until recently advocated IE6
  285. # [09:45] <annevk> jgraham, reading lots of email
  286. # [09:50] <hsivonen> are all the HTML WG minutes from the TPAC week collected somewhere in the form of links?
  287. # [09:53] <annevk> Laura Carlson made this I noticed: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Minutes
  288. # [09:53] <annevk> (or kept it up to date)
  289. # [09:54] <hsivonen> annevk: cool. thanks
  290. # [09:54] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
  291. # [09:55] <hsivonen> I'm trying to flush my action queue right away
  292. # [09:56] <annevk> I hope I do not have any actions
  293. # [09:56] <annevk> though I guess I should write up something on registries
  294. # [09:56] <annevk> and I got a somewhat indirect request to blog about <bdi>
  295. # [10:04] <annevk> abarth|melting, thanks for the update on URLs
  296. # [10:04] <abarth|melting> annevk: np
  297. # [10:05] <abarth|melting> annevk: hopefully i'll get some time to concentrate on it and make some actual progress
  298. # [10:05] <annevk> abarth|melting, agreed that sorting out hybi deserves priority :)
  299. # [10:05] <abarth|melting> i think the hybi thing is almost done
  300. # [10:06] <abarth|melting> i'm mostly just waiting on some vendors to tell me its ok to release the results of this experiment we ran
  301. # [10:06] * Joins: espadrine (86d6a552@gateway/web/freenode/ip.134.214.165.82)
  302. # [10:06] * othermaciej wonders which vendors are sitting on the results
  303. # [10:07] <othermaciej> annevk: I guess I should send links to each set of minutes
  304. # [10:08] * Joins: baba (~sallabanc@unaffiliated/cypha)
  305. # [10:09] <annevk> I think people have been sending out links already, but maybe a pointer to the wiki on public-html-announce or some such
  306. # [10:09] * Joins: Necrathex (~nectop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl)
  307. # [10:15] <othermaciej> yeah, there were some individual links, but not for each session
  308. # [10:21] <othermaciej> this makes me sad: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1880412
  309. # [10:21] <othermaciej> especially the discussion that blames browsers for flagging mixed content
  310. # [10:23] <abarth|melting> collin had a lot of trouble with one of his web sites
  311. # [10:23] <abarth|melting> making it work over HTTPS without mixed content
  312. # [10:23] <abarth|melting> a bunch of things you want to integrate with don't work
  313. # [10:23] <abarth|melting> like facebook connect
  314. # [10:23] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  315. # [10:23] <hsivonen> othermaciej: from the comments, it seems that mixed content warnings are a real problem from the site POV
  316. # [10:23] <abarth|melting> he ended up contracting a CDN to proxy everything over HTTPS
  317. # [10:24] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  318. # [10:24] <hsivonen> othermaciej: so it seems at least semi-appropriate to blame browsers
  319. # [10:24] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I'd prefer just not showing the lock instead of showing a mixed-content warning
  320. # [10:24] <othermaciej> (in fact I think that is what Safari does)
  321. # [10:24] <hsivonen> othermaciej: sure. that's what Firefox 4 does, too.
  322. # [10:25] <othermaciej> if sites want to still show a normal HTTPS lock icon on mixed content pages, then there's really no way to help them
  323. # [10:25] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@adsl-87-102-8-15.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  324. # [10:25] <othermaciej> I suppose using SSL with mixed content mostly protects against Firesheep-style passive attacks - you'd have to actually intercept and MITM the non-SSL content to make it still work
  325. # [10:26] <othermaciej> (unless your non-SSL content shares cookies with your SSL content)
  326. # [10:26] <abarth|melting> there's actually a nice way of solving these problems
  327. # [10:26] <abarth|melting> which is to let the site talk TLS to the browser
  328. # [10:26] <abarth|melting> but use the "http" scheme
  329. # [10:27] <abarth|melting> that gives you protection from passive network attackers
  330. # [10:27] <abarth|melting> and doesn't trigger any of these interoperability problems
  331. # [10:27] <abarth|melting> s/interoperability/integration/
  332. # [10:28] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  333. # [10:28] <abarth|melting> if folks are interested, i can write up a document explaining how to do it
  334. # [10:28] <othermaciej> it seems to me that being less noisy about the mixed content warning (just hide the lock and don't show EV cert UI or whatever) would be easier to implement and would serve about as well
  335. # [10:28] <abarth|melting> IE8 will have noisy mixed content errors for a long time
  336. # [10:29] <abarth|melting> (like show a modal dialog noisy)
  337. # [10:29] <othermaciej> is IE8 compatible with the "talk TLS over HTTP" solution?
  338. # [10:29] <abarth|melting> yes, it just doesn't get the improved security
  339. # [10:29] <abarth|melting> :)
  340. # [10:29] <othermaciej> I see, so it would fall back to normal HTTP?
  341. # [10:30] <abarth|melting> it starts out as normal HTTP
  342. # [10:30] <abarth|melting> imagine we magically teleported a policy bit from the server to the client
  343. # [10:31] <abarth|melting> that says "Whenever you see an http URL pointing to me, talk to me at port XXX over TLS instead please"
  344. # [10:31] <abarth|melting> now, all the URLs are http
  345. # [10:31] <abarth|melting> but right before they hit the wire, we decide to send the HTTP requests over TLS instead
  346. # [10:32] <abarth|melting> this is playing on the fact that URL schemes don't have to be the same as on-the-wire protocols
  347. # [10:32] <othermaciej> I was going to suggest this sounds a lot like STS, but I guess STS would specifically not want to allow mixed content
  348. # [10:32] <abarth|melting> its very much like STS
  349. # [10:33] <abarth|melting> but instead of upgrading your https to "bullet proof", you're upgrading your http transport to use tls
  350. # [10:33] <othermaciej> it's just sad that AdSense is one of the integration problems
  351. # [10:33] <othermaciej> but surely there will be others for some time
  352. # [10:33] <abarth|melting> the github guy mentions the charts API
  353. # [10:34] <abarth|melting> presumably Google could clean up its act
  354. # [10:34] <abarth|melting> Facebook connect is a big one
  355. # [10:34] <abarth|melting> i think collin found that he could get that to work if he haxored the script they gave him
  356. # [10:35] <othermaciej> many at Google are pushing for going all-TLS
  357. # [10:35] <abarth|melting> which is basically what the github guy said about the charts API
  358. # [10:35] <abarth|melting> i'm in favor of all-TLS
  359. # [10:35] <othermaciej> I know you are :-)
  360. # [10:36] <othermaciej> I'm just saying it's odd that Google does things like Google Search over TLS while holding out on the API side
  361. # [10:36] <abarth|melting> i'm sure you've heard stories from Microsoft about how no one tells the Office business unit what to do
  362. # [10:36] <abarth|melting> you might imagine that adsense has a similar position :)
  363. # [10:41] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  364. # [10:41] * zcorpan wonders what correction gsnedders refers to in http://www.w3.org/mid/4CD555C7.8010005@opera.com
  365. # [10:42] <othermaciej> I have heard surprisingly few stories about Microsoft's internal politics
  366. # [10:43] * Quits: baba (~sallabanc@unaffiliated/cypha) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  367. # [10:43] <abarth|melting> brb
  368. # [10:43] * Quits: abarth|melting (~abarth@c-67-169-68-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: abarth|melting)
  369. # [10:46] * Joins: abarth (~abarth@c-67-169-68-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  370. # [10:47] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  371. # [10:47] <abarth> X-Bodge-Transport-Security
  372. # [10:47] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl)
  373. # [10:47] <abarth> i think that turns on that feature in chrome
  374. # [10:48] * Joins: baba (~sallabanc@69.50.70.12)
  375. # [10:48] * Quits: baba (~sallabanc@69.50.70.12) (Changing host)
  376. # [10:48] * Joins: baba (~sallabanc@unaffiliated/cypha)
  377. # [10:49] <annevk> yay more X-prefixed headers
  378. # [10:49] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  379. # [10:49] <abarth> annevk: it's meant to be named rediculously
  380. # [10:50] <abarth> i don't think anyone knows it exists
  381. # [10:51] <othermaciej> you just revealed the secret!
  382. # [10:51] <abarth> OMG!
  383. # [10:51] <abarth> actually, it looks like this doesn't quite do what we want
  384. # [10:52] <abarth> http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/src/net/base/transport_security_state.h?view=markup
  385. # [10:52] <abarth> MODE_STRICT is for HSTS
  386. # [10:52] <abarth> X-Bodge-Transport-Security gets you into MODE_SPDY_ONLY, which is for SPDY
  387. # [10:52] <abarth> we want MODE_OPPORTUNISTIC
  388. # [10:53] <abarth> but i'm not sure if there's syntax to activate that
  389. # [10:54] * Joins: Phae (~Phae@gatekeeper.macmillan.co.uk)
  390. # [10:55] <abarth> oh, i see
  391. # [10:55] <abarth> agl is too clever for his own good
  392. # [10:55] * Joins: akamike (~akamike@94-193-106-14.zone7.bethere.co.uk)
  393. # [10:56] <abarth> / TODO(agl): implement opportunistic HTTPS upgrade.
  394. # [10:56] <abarth> :)
  395. # [10:56] <abarth> now that i've gotten this far, I should just implement it
  396. # [11:04] * Joins: robman (~robman@eth4584.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net)
  397. # [11:05] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net)
  398. # [11:06] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  399. # [11:08] * Quits: Xano_ (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  400. # [11:08] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  401. # [11:08] * Joins: Xano_ (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  402. # [11:09] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  403. # [11:14] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  404. # [11:17] <wirepair> is there something wrong with the html5 sandbox / iframe srcdoc validator on html5.validator.nu?
  405. # [11:17] <wirepair> getting Attribute srcdoc not allowed on element iframe at this point. when taking an example from the html5 spec directly
  406. # [11:17] <hsivonen> wirepair: most likely there is a problem yes
  407. # [11:17] <annevk> might not be implemented yet
  408. # [11:17] <wirepair> ok cool, was scratching my head there :)
  409. # [11:19] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl)
  410. # [11:20] <wirepair> anyone know off the top of their heads which browsers have started implementing (in a testable form) srcdoc?
  411. # [11:23] * Quits: aho (~nya@fuld-4d00d684.pool.mediaWays.net) (Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION)
  412. # [11:23] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  413. # [11:24] <annevk> I remember some work in progress in WebKit
  414. # [11:24] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Client Quit)
  415. # [11:24] <abarth> i don't think it's landed yet
  416. # [11:24] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  417. # [11:28] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-161-167.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  418. # [11:29] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
  419. # [11:31] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-227-147.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  420. # [11:31] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  421. # [11:32] * Joins: pauld (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2)
  422. # [11:46] * Quits: sroussey (~sroussey@adsl-69-234-110-201.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  423. # [11:48] * Quits: espadrine (86d6a552@gateway/web/freenode/ip.134.214.165.82) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  424. # [11:51] * Joins: sroussey (~sroussey@adsl-69-234-110-201.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)
  425. # [12:06] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~henrik@80.199.116.190.static.peytz.dk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  426. # [12:06] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  427. # [12:07] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~henrik@80.199.116.190.static.peytz.dk)
  428. # [12:08] * Quits: homata__ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  429. # [12:12] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  430. # [12:14] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  431. # [12:22] * Quits: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  432. # [12:22] * Joins: mamund (~mamund@frost.nullshells.net)
  433. # [12:26] * Joins: yusukes (~yusukes@2401:fa00:4:1000:224:81ff:fec1:6444)
  434. # [12:32] * Quits: oknoway (~oknoway@173-8-201-137-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  435. # [12:36] <annevk> nice change proposal hsivonen
  436. # [12:40] * Quits: Xano_ (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Beer o'clock!)
  437. # [12:40] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
  438. # [12:44] * Quits: baba (~sallabanc@unaffiliated/cypha) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  439. # [12:46] * Joins: Anti-X (~duckmysic@109.179.192.241.tmi.telenormobil.no)
  440. # [12:54] * Quits: foolip (~philip@83.218.67.122) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  441. # [12:59] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  442. # [13:06] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181063178.pp.htv.fi)
  443. # [13:08] <wirepair> hu just found a Really Weird ie9 vulnerability
  444. # [13:08] <wirepair> can read remote cssRules *only* when it's framed
  445. # [13:08] <wirepair> w.t.f
  446. # [13:11] <zcorpan> remote as in cross-origin?
  447. # [13:12] <wirepair> yes
  448. # [13:14] * Joins: david_carlisle (~davidc@62.231.145.254)
  449. # [13:14] * Joins: oknoway (~oknoway@173-8-201-137-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  450. # [13:18] <david_carlisle> abarth: on using http: URI scheme rather than https:, seems like you are in good company TBL moans about https appearing in the URI in http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Architecture.html#Extension
  451. # [13:21] * Joins: sean` (~Sean@h183194.upc-h.chello.nl)
  452. # [13:26] * Quits: oknoway (~oknoway@173-8-201-137-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  453. # [13:27] * Joins: oknoway (~oknoway@173-8-201-137-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  454. # [13:29] * Joins: foolip (~philip@83.218.67.122)
  455. # [13:35] <wirepair> heh, not only is it only when it's framed, it has to be dynamically framed
  456. # [13:35] <wirepair> wow that's a messed up flow :/
  457. # [13:35] <wirepair> (dynamically in the sense that the iframe src tag needs to be assigned in javascript, not just in the element src="...")
  458. # [13:36] * Quits: oknoway (~oknoway@173-8-201-137-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  459. # [13:36] * Parts: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
  460. # [13:36] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
  461. # [13:41] * Quits: richardjapenga (~Richard@87-251-57-71.lombox.customer.bit.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  462. # [13:42] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  463. # [13:45] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@65.168.34.95.customer.cdi.no) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  464. # [13:45] <wirepair> buh i don't get it, sometimse cssRules are valid, sometimes they're null
  465. # [13:45] * Quits: pauld (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  466. # [13:45] <wirepair> even though i see them in their developer tools debugger
  467. # [13:45] * wirepair gives up
  468. # [13:45] * Joins: matjas_ (~matjas@ip-213-49-112-55.dsl.scarlet.be)
  469. # [13:45] <wirepair> s/their/there
  470. # [13:46] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@ip-81-11-181-178.dsl.scarlet.be) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  471. # [13:47] * Quits: timeless_mbp (~timeless@firefox/developer/timeless) (Quit: Leaving.)
  472. # [13:49] * Joins: pauld (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2)
  473. # [13:53] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl)
  474. # [13:55] * Quits: Rik`_ (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  475. # [13:56] * Quits: sean` (~Sean@h183194.upc-h.chello.nl) (Quit: Leaving)
  476. # [13:56] * Quits: jcranmer (~jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  477. # [14:02] <jgraham> hsivonen: yt? Did you implement the counters in the AAA as in the spec or only incrementing the inner loop counter whn actually inserting an element?
  478. # [14:10] <jgraham> abarth: ^
  479. # [14:11] * matjas_ is now known as matjas
  480. # [14:12] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@beaker.cictr.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  481. # [14:12] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@64.196.246.2)
  482. # [14:16] <gsnedders> zcorpan: The final case in jgraham's email which he claimed could never happen
  483. # [14:17] * jgraham wonders what he claimed could never happen
  484. # [14:18] <gsnedders> I guess zcorpan was referring to my email to public-html-testsuite
  485. # [14:18] * Joins: Xano_ (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  486. # [14:18] * Joins: oknoway (~oknoway@173-8-201-137-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  487. # [14:27] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  488. # [16:27] * Disconnected
  489. # [16:29] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  490. # [16:29] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  491. # [16:29] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  492. # [16:29] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
  493. # [16:29] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  494. # [16:34] * Joins: boaz_ (~boaz@64.119.153.2)
  495. # [16:35] <zcorpan> hsivonen: webkit looks at htmlness?
  496. # [16:36] <annevk> and if there's no ownerDocument you default to XML?
  497. # [16:36] <zcorpan> yeah
  498. # [16:37] <annevk> can you even get in that situation?
  499. # [16:38] * Quits: rimantas (~rimliu@lan-84-240-20-219.vln.skynet.lt) (Quit: Leaving)
  500. # [16:38] <zcorpan> doctypes can have null as ownerDocument :)
  501. # [16:38] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.153.2) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  502. # [16:38] * boaz_ is now known as boaz
  503. # [16:43] * Quits: Peter` (~peter@170-116.citynet.ftth.internl.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  504. # [16:43] * Joins: timeless_mbp (~timeless@192.100.124.156)
  505. # [16:43] * Quits: timeless_mbp (~timeless@192.100.124.156) (Changing host)
  506. # [16:43] * Joins: timeless_mbp (~timeless@firefox/developer/timeless)
  507. # [16:48] * Quits: timeless_mbp (~timeless@firefox/developer/timeless) (Remote host closed the connection)
  508. # [16:48] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@170-116.citynet.ftth.internl.net)
  509. # [16:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yeah, webkit looks at the HTMLness of the owner doc
  510. # [16:52] <zcorpan> then i agree with your comment that we should align with webkit and add an argument to override
  511. # [16:53] <zcorpan> does anyone support DOMParser(s, 'text/html') ?
  512. # [16:54] <annevk> I think Mozilla does
  513. # [16:54] <zcorpan> uh, that's not the right syntax
  514. # [16:55] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm pretty sure we don't yet
  515. # [16:55] <gavin> our domparser doesn't support text/html yet
  516. # [16:55] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/694
  517. # [16:55] <gavin> bug 102699
  518. # [16:56] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/695 even
  519. # [16:56] <zcorpan> i guess it's bad that opera doesn't throw
  520. # [16:56] <zcorpan> doc is null in webkit
  521. # [17:01] <hsivonen> spot-checking other Change Proposals, it sees that people rarely list the Negative Effects of their proposals
  522. # [17:02] <gavin> heh
  523. # [17:04] <jgraham> hsivonen: I don't remember anyone else ever filling out the "risks" section of their proposal
  524. # [17:04] <jgraham> It is quite worthless IMHO
  525. # [17:05] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Disconnected...)
  526. # [17:06] * Quits: david_carlisle (~davidc@62.231.145.254) (Quit: david_carlisle)
  527. # [17:08] <zcorpan> only Hixie putting jokes in the Risks section
  528. # [17:09] <hsivonen> aargh. Wikia sniffs Firefox and Opera and expects their script execution to be HTML5-incompliant
  529. # [17:10] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@ip-213-49-112-55.dsl.scarlet.be) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  530. # [17:12] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.153.2) (Remote host closed the connection)
  531. # [17:16] <zcorpan> yay
  532. # [17:23] * Quits: WHATWG (~apermanen@cpe-76-168-89-210.socal.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  533. # [17:23] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@c-69-181-26-199.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: mdelaney)
  534. # [17:24] * Joins: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.182.184)
  535. # [17:26] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@c-24-6-103-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  536. # [17:27] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@64.119.153.2)
  537. # [17:27] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  538. # [17:31] * Quits: mamund (~mamund@frost.nullshells.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  539. # [17:31] * Joins: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net)
  540. # [17:31] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-161-167.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  541. # [17:33] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@c-24-6-103-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: jamesr_)
  542. # [17:35] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@adsl-69-180-150.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  543. # [17:36] * Joins: invariable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable)
  544. # [17:39] * Joins: mokush (~quassel@86.127.164.41)
  545. # [17:40] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  546. # [17:40] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  547. # [17:41] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-178-131.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  548. # [17:43] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@91.182.171.122)
  549. # [17:45] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@c-69-181-26-199.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  550. # [17:48] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Quit: zcorpan)
  551. # [17:49] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  552. # [17:51] * Quits: oknoway (~oknoway@173-8-201-137-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: oknoway)
  553. # [17:53] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@86.127.164.41) (Remote host closed the connection)
  554. # [17:56] * Quits: baba (~sallabanc@unaffiliated/cypha) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  555. # [17:56] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  556. # [17:57] * Quits: invariable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable) (Remote host closed the connection)
  557. # [18:01] <TabAtkins_> <!DOCTYPE html><title>SVG in HTML</title><svg><circle cx=10 cy=10 r=10 /></svg>
  558. # [18:03] <jgraham> TabAtkins_: Very nice. But why?
  559. # [18:03] * Joins: WHATWG (~apermanen@67-134-147-135.dia.static.qwest.net)
  560. # [18:05] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  561. # [18:06] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@99-59-125-34.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  562. # [18:09] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  563. # [18:11] * Joins: jpike (~hash@chilon.net)
  564. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> jgraham: Argh, sorry. Unintentional. Copypasta from Hixie's message a day or so ago.
  565. # [18:13] * Quits: pauld (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  566. # [18:15] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.107) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  567. # [18:15] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  568. # [18:16] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-wzwdxqmydodahvhv)
  569. # [18:17] <jpike> yay
  570. # [18:17] * Parts: jpike (~hash@chilon.net)
  571. # [18:18] * Joins: cdbb (~c@75.81.49.244)
  572. # [18:18] <annevk> who, interwebs was down
  573. # [18:18] <cdbb> i've got a question for you pros
  574. # [18:18] <annevk> I mean, whoa
  575. # [18:19] <cdbb> i have a slider, with 10 slides. they are marked up with figure/figcaption. how do i fix my outline (it appears there is a blank list with 10 bullets)?
  576. # [18:19] * Joins: tonyg-cr (~Adium@nat/google/x-bqvmncstkacahcrx)
  577. # [18:19] * Quits: Xano_ (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Kthxbye!)
  578. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> cdbb: Figures scope their contents from the heading algorithm, so yeah, anything in them won't be shown.
  579. # [18:20] <annevk> <section> seems more appropriate for a slide in a slideshow
  580. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> If you want them to show in the ouline, instead mark them up with <section>/<h1>.
  581. # [18:20] <annevk> depending on the contents
  582. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> annevk: Right. If the slides are important enough to be in the outline, they're too important to be <figure>s.
  583. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> (If they're not, then <figure> is perfect.)
  584. # [18:21] <cdbb> ah
  585. # [18:21] <cdbb> ok, they are a large image with a graphical caption combined into a single image
  586. # [18:21] * annevk usually goes for <p>
  587. # [18:21] <cdbb> so i thought figure/figcaption would make the most sense
  588. # [18:22] <cdbb> but section probably makes more sense semantically
  589. # [18:22] <cdbb> thx guys
  590. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> Np.
  591. # [18:22] <annevk> if it's just a couple of lines i'd go for <h1> and <p><img> for each slide personally
  592. # [18:22] <annevk> <h1> for the title of the presentation
  593. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> I gave my last talk with <section> slides. The presentation was particularly fun, because they were placed all over the place in the document and used transitions on top/left to animate slide changes.
  594. # [18:27] * Joins: sroussey_ (~sroussey@adsl-69-234-110-201.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)
  595. # [18:28] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: zzzzz)
  596. # [18:28] * Quits: sroussey (~sroussey@adsl-69-234-110-201.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  597. # [18:28] * sroussey_ is now known as sroussey
  598. # [18:30] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  599. # [18:33] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~henrik@c83-249-65-238.bredband.comhem.se)
  600. # [18:35] * Quits: Phae (~Phae@gatekeeper.macmillan.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving.)
  601. # [18:36] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@rrcs-76-79-114-214.west.biz.rr.com)
  602. # [18:37] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  603. # [18:39] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@c-69-181-26-199.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: mdelaney)
  604. # [18:46] * Quits: onar (~onar@17.216.36.168) (Quit: onar)
  605. # [18:46] * Joins: baba (~sallabanc@unaffiliated/cypha)
  606. # [18:47] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.107)
  607. # [18:48] * Quits: WHATWG (~apermanen@67-134-147-135.dia.static.qwest.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  608. # [18:52] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:4aff:fe14:aad6)
  609. # [18:54] * Joins: jcranmer_ (~jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu)
  610. # [18:56] * Quits: webr3 (~nathan@host81-155-254-169.range81-155.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  611. # [18:57] * Joins: dglazkov_ (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-cvtmpjrtcdromput)
  612. # [18:58] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@66.109.105.196)
  613. # [19:00] * Quits: jennb (~jennb@74.125.59.65) (Quit: jennb)
  614. # [19:00] * Joins: webr3 (~nathan@host86-134-175-247.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
  615. # [19:00] <annevk> hahaha http://active.tutsplus.com/articles/roundups/html5-and-flash-17-industry-experts-have-their-say/
  616. # [19:01] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-wzwdxqmydodahvhv) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  617. # [19:01] * Quits: dglazkov_ (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-cvtmpjrtcdromput) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  618. # [19:02] * Quits: tonyg-cr (~Adium@nat/google/x-bqvmncstkacahcrx) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  619. # [19:02] * jcranmer_ is now known as jtcranmer
  620. # [19:04] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl) (Quit: davidhund)
  621. # [19:05] * Joins: tonyg-cr (~Adium@nat/google/x-rtzpztpptbhfypky)
  622. # [19:05] <annevk> http://twitter.com/html4nana
  623. # [19:07] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-dzhswmmagqfbbaup)
  624. # [19:07] <othermaciej> if progress is measured by novelty accounts, HTML5 is doing pretty well
  625. # [19:08] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-bjfblqzjzxtwvdpa)
  626. # [19:08] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-cfbnoehqpetctnqr)
  627. # [19:09] * Joins: tabatkins (~tabatkins@216.239.45.19)
  628. # [19:11] * Joins: payman_m (~payman_m@h85-8-2-58.static.se.alltele.net)
  629. # [19:12] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-81-240.dynamic.qsc.de)
  630. # [19:16] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-hkukcpjcutmgzszn)
  631. # [19:20] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-24-130-129-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  632. # [19:27] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  633. # [19:28] * Joins: espadrine (86d6a552@gateway/web/freenode/ip.134.214.165.82)
  634. # [19:33] * aboodman_ is now known as aboodman
  635. # [19:34] * Quits: espadrine (86d6a552@gateway/web/freenode/ip.134.214.165.82) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  636. # [19:37] * Quits: ormaaj (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ormaaj) (Remote host closed the connection)
  637. # [19:40] * cdbb is now known as cdb
  638. # [19:41] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-dzhswmmagqfbbaup) (Quit: dglazkov)
  639. # [19:42] * Joins: ormaaj (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ormaaj)
  640. # [19:44] * Quits: tabatkins (~tabatkins@216.239.45.19) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  641. # [19:48] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-kkiczszhqupvuoip)
  642. # [19:59] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@66.109.105.196) (Quit: mdelaney)
  643. # [19:59] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-abjzchuqjptdpbhx)
  644. # [19:59] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~henrik@c83-249-65-238.bredband.comhem.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  645. # [19:59] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~henrik@173.195.1.147)
  646. # [20:03] * Quits: nimbupani (~Adium@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  647. # [20:05] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0)
  648. # [20:06] * Joins: nimbupani (~Adium@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  649. # [20:17] * Joins: apucacao (~apucacao@S010600226b6dbc54.vc.shawcable.net)
  650. # [20:19] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-222-194.cnt.nerim.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  651. # [20:21] * Joins: oknoway (~oknoway@74-95-43-121-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  652. # [20:22] * Quits: apucacao (~apucacao@S010600226b6dbc54.vc.shawcable.net) (Client Quit)
  653. # [20:25] * Joins: kurrik (~kurrik@nat/google/x-ozxcaqyivmzrgjad)
  654. # [20:27] * Joins: onar (~onar@2620:0:1b00:16f2:21f:5bff:fe3e:944)
  655. # [20:27] * Quits: oknoway (~oknoway@74-95-43-121-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: oknoway)
  656. # [20:28] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-kkiczszhqupvuoip) (Quit: dglazkov)
  657. # [20:30] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  658. # [20:31] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-lgqzzkkbtuebjxul)
  659. # [20:31] * Quits: tonyg-cr (~Adium@nat/google/x-rtzpztpptbhfypky) (Quit: Leaving.)
  660. # [20:34] * Joins: mikekelly (mikek@64.32.20.15)
  661. # [20:34] <mikekelly> ok I'm looking at an overview of html5 that says the link element 'lost @type because of the prevelence of css' - is that true?
  662. # [20:35] * Joins: Xano_ (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  663. # [20:36] <annevk> not entirely
  664. # [20:36] <annevk> pointer?
  665. # [20:37] <mikekelly> it's a devzone refcard thing
  666. # [20:38] <mikekelly> annevk: default for link is css ?
  667. # [20:38] <annevk> no
  668. # [20:38] <annevk> for <link> type is mostly meaningless
  669. # [20:38] <annevk> but it's still there
  670. # [20:39] <annevk> see http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements
  671. # [20:39] <mikekelly> sure, where is that article coming from
  672. # [20:39] <mikekelly> and why is it slightly true? :P
  673. # [20:40] <annevk> it isn't really
  674. # [20:40] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.171.122) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  675. # [20:40] <annevk> and I've no idea where random articles without URLs on the internet are from
  676. # [20:40] <annevk> or where they get their ideas from
  677. # [20:40] <mikekelly> ok all it says is: "The <link> element has lost its type attribute due to the prevalence of CSS."
  678. # [20:42] <mikekelly> so that's wrong, basically
  679. # [20:43] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
  680. # [20:44] <beowulf> mikekelly: where on the internet does it say this?
  681. # [20:45] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.19)
  682. # [20:47] <mikekelly> beowulf: why do you ask?
  683. # [20:49] <mikekelly> @type is a crazily pointless attribute
  684. # [20:53] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-cfbnoehqpetctnqr) (Quit: jamesr_)
  685. # [20:53] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-lgqzzkkbtuebjxul) (Quit: dglazkov)
  686. # [20:54] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  687. # [20:57] <annevk> mikekelly, basically, because URL or it didn't happen
  688. # [20:58] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-196-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  689. # [20:58] * Joins: jennb (~jennb@nat/google/x-omasiupmuyjzwyoh)
  690. # [21:00] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, annevk: Well, I don't want to get into an argument about . . . er . . . semantics. But there's a big difference between semantics in the HTML sense, and typography. Something like a line break or non-breaking space is not semantic by any definition I see -- it specifies appearance and can be used for any semantics where you desire that appearance. Of course Unicode doesn't dictate presentation on a pixel level as CSS sometimes
  691. # [21:00] <AryehGregor> does, either.
  692. # [21:00] * Joins: tonyg-cr (~Adium@nat/google/x-cpiifjivvhhiwcrm)
  693. # [21:01] <annevk> Unicode does not dictate presentation at all
  694. # [21:01] <annevk> it just defines meaning of code points
  695. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> Some of which are presentational.
  696. # [21:01] <annevk> fonts dictate presentation
  697. # [21:01] <annevk> well sure, Unicode has its shade of gray, just like any other technology
  698. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> Unicode says U+41 is a Latin capital letter A. That suggests how it should be presented, not how it should be used. Unicode doesn't have an opinion on whether you use A as an English letter, a Spanish letter, ASCII art for an Asteroids-style spaceship, or total gibberish. It's semantics-neutral.
  699. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> But it had better look something like Latin capital letter A usually looks, in any font.
  700. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> Otherwise you should be using private-use code points or something.
  701. # [21:05] * Quits: tonyg-cr (~Adium@nat/google/x-cpiifjivvhhiwcrm) (Client Quit)
  702. # [21:08] * Joins: GarethAdams|Home (~GarethAda@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  703. # [21:09] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-zdhfwcvaljysfyso)
  704. # [21:10] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  705. # [21:13] * abarth is now known as abarth|lunch
  706. # [21:14] * Quits: volkmar (~volkmar@gentoo/developer/volkmar) (Quit: leaving)
  707. # [21:14] * Joins: seanoshea (~seanoshea@nat217.eye.fi)
  708. # [21:15] * Quits: Xano_ (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  709. # [21:15] * Joins: Xano_ (~bart@vpn099071.vpn.utwente.nl)
  710. # [21:16] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  711. # [21:16] * Quits: jennb (~jennb@nat/google/x-omasiupmuyjzwyoh) (Quit: jennb)
  712. # [21:18] * Quits: plainhao (~plainhao@mail.xbiotica.com) (Quit: plainhao)
  713. # [21:27] * Joins: payman_m_ (~payman_m@h-61-138.A163.priv.bahnhof.se)
  714. # [21:27] <JonathanNeal> Is this Section 508 happy all by itself or would it also require a label? <input type="text" name="month" maxlength="2" title="Date of Birth Month" />
  715. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> You don't need to label all inputs, as far as I know.
  716. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> However, you probably do want to use a label here instead of a title.
  717. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> Titles aren't suited for containing essential info like what you're supposed to put in an input.
  718. # [21:28] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de)
  719. # [21:28] <JonathanNeal> I think I'm good, because <input>, <textarea>, and <select> elements have label elements associated with them in the markup or are given a descriptive title attribute.
  720. # [21:29] <JonathanNeal> Hmm.
  721. # [21:29] * Quits: payman_m (~payman_m@h85-8-2-58.static.se.alltele.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  722. # [21:29] * payman_m_ is now known as payman_m
  723. # [21:30] <JonathanNeal> I'm imaginging this in the context of three inputs representing a date of birth.
  724. # [21:31] <Philip`> How about an <input type="date">?
  725. # [21:34] <JonathanNeal> is there type="year", type="month", and type="day" ?
  726. # [21:34] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  727. # [21:34] <annevk> AryehGregor, it being a capital A in itself has meaning
  728. # [21:34] <annevk> AryehGregor, saying it has no semantics is the same as people saying <h1> has no semantics because it is completely unspecific
  729. # [21:35] * Joins: tonyg-cr (~Adium@nat/google/x-gzvulykqhpicyhtw)
  730. # [21:35] <JonathanNeal> And I imagine the "Date of Birth" text in ... Date of Birth <input type="text" name="month" maxlength="2" title="Date of Birth Month"/> <input type="text" name="day" maxlength="2" title="Date of Birth Day"/> <input type="text" name="year" maxlength="4" title="Date of Birth Year"/> ... wouldn't be appropriate as a label or as a legend in a fieldset.
  731. # [21:36] <Philip`> (That series of inputs would be extremely confusing to people who aren't used to the US date format, and also confusing to people who try to write "Jan" etc as the month)
  732. # [21:37] <JonathanNeal> Okay. So, 1. a label for each would be appropriate (and not a title)? And 2. the "Date of Birth" text would work best as... ? a heading?
  733. # [21:37] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-tegdiqlpcnyylonm)
  734. # [21:38] * Joins: maikmerten_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-79-138.dynamic.qsc.de)
  735. # [21:39] * Joins: payman_m_ (~payman_m@h85-8-2-58.static.se.alltele.net)
  736. # [21:40] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-81-240.dynamic.qsc.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  737. # [21:40] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  738. # [21:43] * Quits: payman_m (~payman_m@h-61-138.A163.priv.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  739. # [21:43] * payman_m_ is now known as payman_m
  740. # [21:43] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  741. # [21:46] <TabAtkins_> JonathanNeal: Yes to both.
  742. # [21:48] * Joins: FGRibreau (~FG@85-170-149-219.rev.numericable.fr)
  743. # [21:48] <FGRibreau> Hi
  744. # [21:48] <FGRibreau> is there anyone here ?
  745. # [21:49] <TabAtkins_> Nope.
  746. # [21:49] <annevk> FGRibreau, better to state your actual question ;)
  747. # [21:50] <FGRibreau> I don't know if it's the best place to discuss this. I've read the spec about HTML5 postMessage and I've go a question
  748. # [21:50] <FGRibreau> (and a bug in my case)
  749. # [21:50] <FGRibreau> My parent iframe is on "http://www.webiste.com" and contain another iframe on "https://www.web2.com"
  750. # [21:51] <FGRibreau> web2 try a postMessage to "http://www.website.com" and it doesn't work.
  751. # [21:51] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl) (Quit: kthxbye!)
  752. # [21:51] <TabAtkins_> Right.
  753. # [21:51] <FGRibreau> Is it normal ?
  754. # [21:51] <annevk> so you did parent.postMessage() from web2?
  755. # [21:51] <FGRibreau> yep
  756. # [21:52] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.246.19.9)
  757. # [21:52] <FGRibreau> It work when web2 is without https
  758. # [21:52] <annevk> ooh
  759. # [21:52] <FGRibreau> I've tested on safari & chrome
  760. # [21:52] <annevk> https to http?
  761. # [21:52] <FGRibreau> (yes)
  762. # [21:53] <FGRibreau> I thought postMessage was able to deliver a message from https to http & http to https & http to http
  763. # [21:53] <annevk> maybe browsers block that
  764. # [21:53] <FGRibreau> humm
  765. # [21:53] <annevk> in theory yes
  766. # [21:53] <FGRibreau> ok
  767. # [21:53] <annevk> but certain things get disabled when you cross the "secure" boundary and not all of that is defined
  768. # [21:53] <FGRibreau> That was what I was thinking about -__-'
  769. # [21:54] <FGRibreau> thanks for your help
  770. # [21:54] <FGRibreau> I'll try another way to get it work
  771. # [21:54] <FGRibreau> ++
  772. # [21:54] <annevk> I'd suggest trying Firefox/Opera/IE as well
  773. # [21:54] * Parts: FGRibreau (~FG@85-170-149-219.rev.numericable.fr)
  774. # [21:54] <annevk> oh well
  775. # [21:55] * Parts: mikekelly (mikek@64.32.20.15)
  776. # [21:56] * Quits: maikmerten_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-79-138.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  777. # [21:57] <AryehGregor> annevk, so let's put it this way: Unicode, like CSS, is not media-independent. It's designed entirely around typography. The concept of a capital A only really makes sense in visual contexts -- in other media (like speech) you have to do some kind of lossy conversion to preserve the semantics. Likewise, <br> and <b> and so on are not media-independent, but <h1> is.
  778. # [22:00] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  779. # [22:02] * Quits: payman_m (~payman_m@h85-8-2-58.static.se.alltele.net) (Quit: payman_m)
  780. # [22:04] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-guysrdkduntmiiua)
  781. # [22:05] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de)
  782. # [22:05] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181063178.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  783. # [22:08] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  784. # [22:09] * Joins: payman_m (~payman_m@h85-8-2-58.static.se.alltele.net)
  785. # [22:11] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
  786. # [22:12] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl)
  787. # [22:12] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  788. # [22:13] <TabAtkins_> MikeSmith: Um, HTMLWG minutes are being *crazy*. Right now it looks like the minutes are a plain-text dump of a photoshop file.
  789. # [22:13] <TabAtkins_> MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html
  790. # [22:14] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  791. # [22:14] <annevk> wfm
  792. # [22:15] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  793. # [22:15] <TabAtkins_> wtf
  794. # [22:15] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  795. # [22:15] <TabAtkins_> Okay, it works now...
  796. # [22:20] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de)
  797. # [22:20] * Joins: payman_m_ (~payman_m@h-61-138.A163.priv.bahnhof.se)
  798. # [22:23] * Quits: payman_m (~payman_m@h85-8-2-58.static.se.alltele.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  799. # [22:23] * payman_m_ is now known as payman_m
  800. # [22:25] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-128-189-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  801. # [22:27] <TabAtkins_> Urgh, now I'm back to the minutes not working at all, which I was having earlier this morning.
  802. # [22:27] * Quits: estes (~aestes@17.246.19.9) (Quit: estes)
  803. # [22:29] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  804. # [22:29] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  805. # [22:30] * Joins: payman_m_ (~payman_m@h85-8-2-58.static.se.alltele.net)
  806. # [22:30] * Joins: volkmar (~volkmar@rps1542.ovh.net)
  807. # [22:30] * Quits: volkmar (~volkmar@rps1542.ovh.net) (Changing host)
  808. # [22:30] * Joins: volkmar (~volkmar@gentoo/developer/volkmar)
  809. # [22:32] * Quits: payman_m (~payman_m@h-61-138.A163.priv.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  810. # [22:32] * Quits: sroussey (~sroussey@adsl-69-234-110-201.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  811. # [22:32] * payman_m_ is now known as payman_m
  812. # [22:33] * Joins: nattokirai_ (~nattokira@y079250.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  813. # [22:33] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Client Quit)
  814. # [22:33] <TabAtkins_> annevk: When you pointed me to the bug about an anonymous relation and said something about CSS, are you thinking something in the direction of "background-image: anon-url(http://www.example.com/example.jpg);"?
  815. # [22:35] * Quits: volkmar (~volkmar@gentoo/developer/volkmar) (Quit: leaving)
  816. # [22:35] * Joins: volkmar (~volkmar@rps1542.ovh.net)
  817. # [22:35] * Quits: volkmar (~volkmar@rps1542.ovh.net) (Changing host)
  818. # [22:35] * Joins: volkmar (~volkmar@gentoo/developer/volkmar)
  819. # [22:37] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.246.19.9)
  820. # [22:38] * Joins: sroussey (~sroussey@adsl-69-234-110-201.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)
  821. # [22:39] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  822. # [22:40] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YYMKDCCLXXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  823. # [22:41] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@92.86.243.219) (Quit: .)
  824. # [22:43] * Joins: jennb (~jennb@74.125.59.73)
  825. # [22:48] * Joins: franksalim (~frank@108-65-76-174.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
  826. # [22:50] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  827. # [22:53] <jamesr_> what are the recent canvas bugs on w3.org bug tracker talking about? http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11242 for example
  828. # [22:53] * Quits: robman (~robman@eth4584.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  829. # [22:56] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  830. # [23:00] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins_, is there an example online somewhere of how to properly use headings, legends, labels, and titles in html5 forms?
  831. # [23:00] <JonathanNeal> And if so, would you share it with me? :D
  832. # [23:01] <Philip`> jamesr_: Accessibility
  833. # [23:01] * Quits: kurrik (~kurrik@nat/google/x-ozxcaqyivmzrgjad) (Quit: Leaving)
  834. # [23:03] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YYMKDCCLXXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  835. # [23:03] <jamesr_> so it's about the fallback content inside a canvas?
  836. # [23:03] * Quits: cdb (~c@75.81.49.244) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  837. # [23:03] * Joins: kurrik (~kurrik@nat/google/x-osacqfqpvequefur)
  838. # [23:04] <Philip`> jamesr_: Yes
  839. # [23:05] <jamesr_> why's canvas different from any other html element?
  840. # [23:06] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.107) (Remote host closed the connection)
  841. # [23:07] <Philip`> I don't know
  842. # [23:07] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl) (Quit: kthxbye!)
  843. # [23:07] * Joins: cccc (~c@75.81.49.244)
  844. # [23:08] <AryehGregor> jamesr_, because people write entire applications in canvas.
  845. # [23:08] <AryehGregor> Which aren't exposed to AT at all, and can't really be, because canvas is just a bitmap manipulated by JavaScript.
  846. # [23:09] <AryehGregor> I mean, can't really be without special APIs.
  847. # [23:09] <AryehGregor> Whereas other HTML elements tend to contain convenient things like text, which can be exposed to ATs easily. Or otherwise they have semantics that can be exposed to AT.
  848. # [23:10] <jamesr_> right, but people also put entire applications in <embed>
  849. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> Yeah, but the processing model for that is entirely nonstandard, so it's up to the particular embedded thingie to define its own accessibility model.
  850. # [23:11] * Quits: ChrisLTD (~iMac@ur174.ur.unc.edu) (Quit: ChrisLTD)
  851. # [23:11] <jamesr_> so the idea with this series of bugs is that the application author would provide DOM that parallels the application being rendered in the <canvas>?
  852. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> I don't know, I haven't looked at them.
  853. # [23:14] <Philip`> The HTML5 spec already requires that you provide a non-canvas-based equivalent to what you're using canvas for
  854. # [23:17] <zcorpan> maybe i should write a non-canvas-based tower defence game to see what would be suitable as fallback
  855. # [23:19] <zcorpan> i guess it's a bit hard to play tower defence if you're blind
  856. # [23:19] * Joins: bckenny (~bckenny@nat/google/x-oshibhabvgpweqqm)
  857. # [23:20] * Joins: cdb (~c@75.81.49.244)
  858. # [23:22] * Quits: cccc (~c@75.81.49.244) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  859. # [23:25] * jtcranmer is now known as jcranmer
  860. # [23:26] * Quits: nattokirai_ (~nattokira@y079250.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai_)
  861. # [23:28] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-65-202.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  862. # [23:31] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-178-131.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  863. # [23:31] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  864. # [23:31] * erlehmann is now known as sex
  865. # [23:32] * sex is now known as erlehmann
  866. # [23:32] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@y079250.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  867. # [23:33] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  868. # [23:41] * Joins: Jon_Neal (~Jonathan_@rrcs-76-79-114-214.west.biz.rr.com)
  869. # [23:42] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  870. # [23:43] * Joins: cccc (~c@75.81.49.244)
  871. # [23:44] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@rrcs-76-79-114-214.west.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  872. # [23:46] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Quit: zcorpan)
  873. # [23:46] * Quits: cdb (~c@75.81.49.244) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  874. # [23:48] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins_: still have problems with the minutes?
  875. # [23:48] * Quits: Jon_Neal (~Jonathan_@rrcs-76-79-114-214.west.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  876. # [23:50] * Joins: robman (~robman@eth4853.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net)
  877. # [23:52] * Quits: kurrik (~kurrik@nat/google/x-osacqfqpvequefur) (Remote host closed the connection)
  878. # [23:52] * Joins: kurrik (~kurrik@nat/google/x-hurewipnxdwacidj)
  879. # [23:53] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@y079250.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: jdaggett)
  880. # [23:55] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~henrik@173.195.1.147) (Quit: henrikbjorn)
  881. # [23:55] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  882. # [23:56] * Quits: franksalim (~frank@108-65-76-174.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  883. # [23:59] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  884. # Session Close: Tue Nov 09 00:00:00 2010

The end :)