/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-11-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 12 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:20] <zcorpan> hsivonen: here's one you could use if you want: http://simon.html5.org/temp/hsivonen/favicon.png
  9. # [00:21] * zcorpan is not very creative with icons
  10. # [00:23] <zcorpan> maybe that looks like it refers to Hun Stuff
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  15. # [00:27] <Rik`> fun, HS in French means Hors Sujet or Hors Service which means out of order or off topic
  16. # [00:28] <Hixie> i've never seen that abbreviation in practice
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  18. # [00:28] <Hixie> but my time in french-speaking land is limited these days
  19. # [00:29] <gsnedders> And I guess as a kid you don't have much reason to see it…
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  21. # [00:31] <david_carlisle> hixie: if you mint a new entity name, I'd have to shoot you
  22. # [00:31] <Rik`> Hixie: all school teachers use this as comments on students copies
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  24. # [00:32] <Hixie> david_carlisle: lol
  25. # [00:32] <Hixie> Rik`: interesting
  26. # [00:32] <Hixie> david_carlisle: i'd have _you_ mint it! :-)
  27. # [00:33] <Rik`> and saying "je suis complètement HS" is pretty common too
  28. # [00:33] <zcorpan> Hixie: then maybe you risk him comitting suicide
  29. # [00:33] <david_carlisle> hixie: seriously, i see that you;re just batting ideas around but if it does look like that's what you want to do, could you keep me in the loop
  30. # [00:34] <Hixie> david_carlisle: absolutely, i wouldn't do anything to the entities without the mathml wg, don't worry
  31. # [00:34] <david_carlisle> as adding another one on th exml side would probably be better than getting out of sync
  32. # [00:34] <Hixie> david_carlisle: to start with, actually adding one would be a huge pain for me if it wasn't in unicode.xml :-)
  33. # [00:34] <Hixie> david_carlisle: the html5 spec's entity stuff is literally autogenerated from unicode.xml each time, i don't have anything in the spec for it
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  36. # [00:36] <david_carlisle> have you seen https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=603716
  37. # [00:36] * Joins: tabatkins (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-grejugxpegguujwc)
  38. # [00:36] <david_carlisle> the lawyers will probably say we can't use entities at all....
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  41. # [00:36] <david_carlisle> and I can get my life back
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  43. # [00:38] <zcorpan> lol @ http://mcc.id.au/2010/novel.html
  44. # [00:38] <zcorpan> abarth pwns Hixie
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  46. # [00:39] <Hixie> david_carlisle: i saw that yeah :-)
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  48. # [00:40] <Dashiva> I would buy it
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  50. # [00:42] <jamesr_> i dunno how much sense the story makes given both parties are employed by Google
  51. # [00:42] <gsnedder1> Oh come on, who cares. abarth kicks ass.
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  63. # [00:45] <Dashiva> It should say "the Google", though
  64. # [00:45] <Dashiva> Sounds more ominous
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  77. # [01:21] <heycam> jamesr_, you can consider abarth as "internal affairs" then :)
  78. # [01:21] <heycam> where internal affairs isn't aware of Management's nefarious plot
  79. # [01:22] <Hixie> aw man
  80. # [01:22] <Hixie> how did i end up the bad guy here!
  81. # [01:22] <Hixie> i was just following orders!
  82. # [01:23] * heycam thinks perhaps we shouldn't talk of this lest tom's hardware write a scathing expose
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  92. # [01:53] <gsnedders> http://dev.ckeditor.com/ticket/6666 — yay!
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  192. # [09:03] <hsivonen> hober, AryehGregor, zcorpan: Script execution post fixed. thanks
  193. # [09:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: missing favicon acknowledged. thanks. (not fixed yet)
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  226. # [10:59] <zcorpan> so for <img src=404>, in ie .complete is false while in gecko/webkit/opera it's true
  227. # [10:59] <zcorpan> afaict the spec sides with ie for that case
  228. # [11:00] <zcorpan> do we want to change the spec?
  229. # [11:01] <annevk> prolly
  230. # [11:04] <zcorpan> it makes .complete less useful though
  231. # [11:05] <Ms2ger> Even less useful?
  232. # [11:05] <zcorpan> yes
  233. # [11:06] <zcorpan> i was using it in my media testsuite and expected it to be false for 404, but now we had to add a workaround :)
  234. # [11:07] <annevk> should it be false for all error status codes?
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  236. # [11:08] <annevk> what about a 301 without a Location header?
  237. # [11:08] <zcorpan> "no data could be obtained" http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/embedded-content-1.html#img-error
  238. # [11:09] <annevk> oh, so in that case it ought to just work
  239. # [11:09] <annevk> if the 404 is an image
  240. # [11:09] <zcorpan> actually the status code is not so relevant for <img>, the relevant part is if the body is a valid image
  241. # [11:09] <zcorpan> yeah
  242. # [11:09] <annevk> I was already wondering when Hixie would have changed his mind on this
  243. # [11:10] <annevk> because "we" decided on this behavior long ago
  244. # [11:10] <zcorpan> so an HTML 404 is the same as a "broken" image
  245. # [11:11] <annevk> it's the same as a HTML 200
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  252. # [11:49] <annevk> there's a typo in the novel
  253. # [11:50] <annevk> "He cackled to himself as his committed" s/his/he/ right?
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  255. # [11:50] <annevk> or is using "his" some kind of old English I am not familiar with?
  256. # [11:53] <jgraham> No, it's a typo
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  258. # [11:54] <jgraham> Did anyone ever mirror the webapps repo in some sensible format?
  259. # [11:54] <jgraham> i.e. git/mercurial
  260. # [11:55] <jgraham> (and keep it up to date)?
  261. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> jgraham: not that I know of
  262. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> if you think it's useful I could set it up at github
  263. # [11:57] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I would find it useful right about now :)
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  276. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> jgraham: importing now
  277. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> it's taking a while
  278. # [12:33] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I actually started doing it myself as well. I guess Hixie loves us…
  279. # [12:33] <jgraham> (not to github though, which indeed seems more useful)
  280. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> jgraham: wiil be at https://github.com/sideshowbarker/html5-spec when it's done
  281. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> git@github.com:sideshowbarker/html5-spec.git
  282. # [12:39] <gsnedders> A git-svn clone for the spec?
  283. # [12:39] * gsnedders has one of those locally :P
  284. # [12:40] <jgraham> gsnedders: If you had said that like an hour ago (and uploaded it somewhere sensible) you coudl have saved everyone lots of heartache
  285. # [12:41] * gsnedders was writing a five page essay worth 2% of the course…
  286. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> use really small paper
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  289. # [12:50] <jgraham> gsnedders: It is likely worth 0% of your final degree. The point of the excerise is to *learn*
  290. # [12:50] <jgraham> Not to accumulate points
  291. # [12:51] <gsnedders> jgraham: I've learnt I've totally forgotten everything I knew about writing essays from school :)
  292. # [12:51] <jgraham> (although the points are useful)
  293. # [12:51] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl)
  294. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> the point it to learn how to parrot your instructors' words in such a way that reinforces their egos so they give you higher marks
  295. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> make them see that you understand well how clever they are
  296. # [12:55] <Philip`> Be sure to get a section on pathetic fallacy in there too
  297. # [12:55] <Philip`> That's the main thing I remember from writing essays
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  331. # [15:20] <jgraham> Is it me or does the spec allow literal U+0000 through in the foster parenting case?
  332. # [15:23] * jgraham files a bug
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  335. # [15:29] <gsnedders> I thought U+0000 was handled within the tokenizer so where it goes within the tree constructor is surely irrelevent?
  336. # [15:29] * gsnedders hasn't read the spec closely since it was changed for null-handling
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  340. # [15:33] <jgraham> No, now the handling is split over the treebuilder and the tokenizer in a slightly ugly way
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  342. # [15:38] <annevk> parser changes seem to confuse everyone and satisfy nobody :/
  343. # [15:39] <annevk> oh, so Apple will keep Java support on Lion?
  344. # [15:39] <hsivonen> annevk: that's because Hixie didn't spec *exactly* the conceptual model I described :-)
  345. # [15:39] <hsivonen> annevk: URL about Java?
  346. # [15:41] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
  347. # [15:41] <hsivonen> in other parser news, we got another <foo </bar> bug
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  349. # [15:41] <hsivonen> (sent over to evang, so nothing special about it. just noting that those bugs do show up)
  350. # [15:43] <annevk> hsivonen, http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/11/12openjdk.html
  351. # [15:43] <Philip`> Is there any way the spec could distinguish between cases where content relies on it closing the foo, and where content relies on it not closing the foo?
  352. # [15:43] <Philip`> (like the exact tokeniser state in which the '<' is encountered)
  353. # [15:44] <hsivonen> annevk: cool. Apple contributing their previously proprietary code to OpenJDK is probably the best outcome for all stake holders
  354. # [15:45] <hsivonen> Philip`: I think it would be even more confusing to vary < by state
  355. # [15:46] <Philip`> hsivonen: Maybe increasing compatibility is more important than decreasing confusion
  356. # [15:46] <Philip`> (I don't know if it's really possible to increase compatibility by complexifying the logic, though)
  357. # [15:47] <hsivonen> It would be awesome if we could just make things more complex to make them more compatible :-)
  358. # [15:48] <hsivonen> (that is, making them more complex in whatever random ways :-)
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  360. # [15:50] <Philip`> Hmm, random complexity seems unlikely to work, unless we could develop some automatic measure of compatibility and then use a genetic algorithm to evolve the parser algorithm to optimise compatibility
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  363. # [15:51] <zcorpan> we could change the parser every week based on the output of the compat measurement
  364. # [15:52] <jgraham> The problem would be measuring compatibility
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  366. # [15:53] <hsivonen> I wonder how common it is that sites respond to beta cycle evang by saying that they'll fix the site once the browser is final (as in no longer beta)
  367. # [15:54] <hsivonen> as opposed to fixing the site right away
  368. # [15:54] <Philip`> Maybe they don't want to make changes they can't test, and don't want to install beta browsers for testing since it may disturb their current browser installations
  369. # [15:55] <Philip`> Or maybe they think that if they hold out long enough then you'll revert the browser changes and they won't have to do anything
  370. # [15:57] <jgraham> I wonder what will happen to foreignContent mode (again)
  371. # [15:57] <hsivonen> jgraham: which bug?
  372. # [15:57] <jgraham> hsivonen: Dunno if there was a bug
  373. # [15:58] <Philip`> Re http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/11/12openjdk.html : "Apple [...] has recently introduced its magical iPad" - they actually call it magical?
  374. # [15:58] <jgraham> I should have filed one on the changes to end tag handling in the last updates, but I don't recall if I did
  375. # [16:01] <hsivonen> jgraham: would that one get fixed if Hixie adopted the model I've been proposing?
  376. # [16:01] <jgraham> Yeah, I think so
  377. # [16:02] <hsivonen> Philip`: you should watch one of those Stevenote remixes with only the adjectives
  378. # [16:02] <hsivonen> jgraham: let's just do it then
  379. # [16:02] <jgraham> I was vaugely contemplating making an experimental spec change to the model you proposed
  380. # [16:03] <jgraham> Because it seems like the big barrier at this point is that it is a big change and Hixie only has the bandwidth for bugfixes
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  388. # [16:22] * hsivonen is a bit surprised that https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=587452 hasn't been fixed at Google's end yet
  389. # [16:23] <annevk> smaug____, I made a small update to the XHR tests
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  391. # [16:23] <annevk> smaug____, they now include a reference to testharnessreport.js
  392. # [16:23] <annevk> smaug____, that also made http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/XMLHttpRequest/testrunner.htm possible
  393. # [16:23] <annevk> smaug____, although the way that works is not entirely how I'd like it
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  395. # [16:24] <smaug____> annevk: ok, will look at that soon
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  405. # [17:09] <annevk> hsivonen, so this OpenJDK is not so open that Google can use it for Android in a slightly different way?
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  413. # [17:25] <tabatkins> hsivonen: Do you know if anyone's bugged us about it yet?
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  422. # [17:45] <annevk> Ms2ger, html5.org is updated now
  423. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> Thanks
  424. # [17:45] <annevk> Ms2ger, kind of strange that bitbucket.org does not propagate things directly
  425. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> Yeah
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  427. # [17:47] <annevk> so the parsing spec should prolly say when <script> is executed and when it isn't
  428. # [17:48] <Ms2ger> I'm waiting for Hixie to give me a flag
  429. # [17:48] <Ms2ger> Currently, it's conditional on being a fragment parser
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  488. # [20:18] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, "cross-broser-compatible" http://hsivonen.iki.fi/script-execution/
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  491. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, did all this land for b7?
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  509. # [21:21] <cying> CSS nerdy question:
  510. # [21:21] <cying> how do i style the first child of a container's first line in all caps?
  511. # [21:21] <tabatkins> Lines don't have children.
  512. # [21:22] <tabatkins> (At least, not in the element tree, which is where Selectors operate.)
  513. # [21:22] <tabatkins> Or... wait. I think I misparsed your sentence.
  514. # [21:22] <tabatkins> #container > :first-child::first-line should work
  515. # [21:23] <tabatkins> That'll select the ((first child of a container)'s first line), but not the (first child of (a container's first line)).
  516. # [21:24] <tabatkins> And then, of course, text-transform: uppercase;.
  517. # [21:25] <tabatkins> cying: ^^^
  518. # [21:25] <tabatkins> cying: Also, your request is a heisen-sentence. It can be read either way, and swapping the order of the "first *" clauses is equally ambiguous.
  519. # [21:26] <cying> hehe
  520. # [21:26] <cying> tabatkins: i mean the former not the latter
  521. # [21:26] <cying> ((first child of a container)'s first line)
  522. # [21:26] <tabatkins> K, then my selector will work.
  523. # [21:26] <cying> sadly not working in mobile safari
  524. # [21:26] <tabatkins> That'll be a bug, then.
  525. # [21:28] <tabatkins> What's the failure? It doesn't work at all? It selects more than you think? Less than you think?
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  531. # [21:41] <cying> tabatkins: it doesn't work at all
  532. # [21:41] <cying> tabatkins: it selects nothing
  533. # [21:42] <annevk> is the child a block?
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  537. # [21:44] <cpojer> hey guys
  538. # [21:44] <cpojer> I have a question about window.onpopstate
  539. # [21:45] <cpojer> I am not clear about what the expected behavior is
  540. # [21:45] <cpojer> in chrome/firefox4 popstates fires for the initial page load
  541. # [21:45] <cpojer> in safari it doesn't
  542. # [21:45] <cpojer> I read this: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0078.html
  543. # [21:46] <cpojer> but I am not sure I understand it :D
  544. # [21:46] <cpojer> if anyone cares to enlighten me that would be great
  545. # [21:46] <Ms2ger> cpojer, so
  546. # [21:48] <cpojer> so.
  547. # [21:48] <Ms2ger> Say, you click a link
  548. # [21:48] <Ms2ger> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-a-element
  549. # [21:48] <Ms2ger> Finally, the user agent must follow the hyperlink
  550. # [21:48] <Ms2ger> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#following-hyperlinks
  551. # [21:49] <cpojer> wait what?
  552. # [21:49] <Ms2ger> ... must navigate a browsing context to the resulting absolute URL.
  553. # [21:49] <Ms2ger> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/history.html#navigate
  554. # [21:50] <cpojer> wait sorry, I don't really want to read through all the specs if thats ok
  555. # [21:50] <cpojer> just want to know what the expected behavior for popstate is
  556. # [21:50] <cpojer> should it fire on the initial page load or not
  557. # [21:50] <cpojer> that is, if I navigate to example.com from an empty tab
  558. # [21:50] <cpojer> should it fire popstate or not?
  559. # [21:50] <cpojer> chrome/ff4 do, safari does not
  560. # [21:50] <cpojer> any maybe because its friday night I am not fully able to understand that response in the bug tracker
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  565. # [21:56] <Ms2ger> Yes, should fire
  566. # [21:56] <cpojer> ok thanks
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  599. # [23:00] <zcorpan> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/html5bugchart/20101002/ld/chart1.html is indeed a pretty long description
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  604. # [23:16] <Hixie> zcorpan: i wonder why she didn't just put that on the main page, it's more useful than the pie charts!
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  606. # [23:16] <tabatkins> Dammit, Hixie, I was just about to say that.
  607. # [23:17] <tabatkins> The information about trends and such is not obvious from the infographic. It's much easier to understand from the description.
  608. # [23:22] <annevk> I can't follow those tables, why is there no summary?
  609. # [23:25] <Philip`> The first table seems to have a typo - INVALID is 6% for 1, LATER is 2% for 5
  610. # [23:25] <zcorpan> does the typo in the table propagate to the graph?
  611. # [23:26] <Philip`> No
  612. # [23:26] <karlcow> http://okfn.org/projects/annotator/ - Open-Source Annotation Toolkit for Inline, Online Web Annotation
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  615. # [23:34] <cying> annevk: it sure is
  616. # [23:34] <cying> annevk: (re: :first-child::first-line)
  617. # [23:34] <tabatkins> data:text/html,<style>#container > :first-child::first-line { color: red; }</style><div id=container>foo foo<p>foo bar<br>bar baz</p>
  618. # [23:35] <tabatkins> cying: Given ^^^, which works on desktop, it's clear that if Mobile Safari isn't doing it, it has a bug.
  619. # [23:35] <cying> ahhhh
  620. # [23:35] <cying> tabatkins: thanks
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  628. # Session Close: Sat Nov 13 00:00:02 2010

The end :)