/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-11-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 17 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <jgraham> Yeah
  4. # [00:00] <gsnedders> So it's not like that was massively widely supported
  5. # [00:00] <jgraham> But that was Victory
  6. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> Aleoss: Yup, but they're rare compared to the language as a whole. It all depends on uptake, and <form>'s @name usage obviously has *far* too much uptake to ever drop.
  7. # [00:00] <jgraham> We don't get that very often
  8. # [00:00] <Aleoss> <b>, <i>, <u> are all obsoleted. They still work for compatibility today, but in ~10 years I bet they will be completely removed from browser rendering of HTML objects.
  9. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> Uh, what? You honestly think that browsers will stop rendering <b>, <i>, etc., thus harming the rendering of a substantial fraction of the trillion+ web pages existing today?
  10. # [00:01] <gsnedders> Aleoss: I bet they'll never be removed.
  11. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> (And <b> and <i> aren't obsoleted, anyway.)
  12. # [00:01] <jgraham> Hahaha
  13. # [00:01] <jgraham> In the nicest possible way
  14. # [00:02] <Aleoss> TabAtkins: Yes, CSS has superceded them.
  15. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> Aleoss: Your sentence doesn't make sense.
  16. # [00:03] <Aleoss> TabAtkins: It's like how Google stopped supporting IE6 a number of months back, as soon as that happened, lots of people got on that as well and said, "Ya, screw IE6."
  17. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> Yes, <b> is entirely described by a "b { font-weight: bold}" rule in the UA stylesheet. And?
  18. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> Why would a browser ever remove that rule from their stylesheet?
  19. # [00:04] <jgraham> Out of all the problems in the world, the <b> and <i> element's continued existence is notable only for the amount of attention it gets compared to its notability
  20. # [00:04] <Aleoss> TabAtkins: I'm saying that <b> is deprecated and obsolete in favour of CSS's font-weight: bold;
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  22. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> Aleoss: But it's not. <b> is a perfectly valid and okay element today. And it has value besides the styling (insofar as it indicates in markup something that is bolded in traditional visual display, but which doesn't otherwise have a specific element).
  23. # [00:05] <Aleoss> TabAtkins: Give it about 10 years or so and I bet that the major browsers won't even have <b> or <u> or <i>
  24. # [00:05] <jgraham> In truth, most "semantic" markup is angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin stuff
  25. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> Again, "won't even have <b>" *doesn't make sense*.
  26. # [00:06] <jgraham> some of it is useful though
  27. # [00:06] <jgraham> Aleoss: I would take you up n that bet. For real money and all
  28. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> <b> isn't something that browser have to specially handle, except insofar as they create a particular type of DOM node for it. Outside of the DOM, <b> is just a <span> with a special rule in the UA stylesheet.
  29. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> I would also bet you real money.
  30. # [00:07] <Aleoss> jgraham: I don't care for betting, however, you'll see for yourself in ~10 years.
  31. # [00:08] <jgraham> Indeed I will. In particular I will see that browsers will render <b> as bold just like they did 10 years ago
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  33. # [00:08] <jgraham> In order to support all the 25-yeay-old content
  34. # [00:08] <jgraham> *year
  35. # [00:08] <jgraham> That people will still expect to work in their 2020 web browser
  36. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> I just... I just don't understand why you even think it would be *worth* anything to stop rendering <b> as bold. There is literally *zero* benefit, and a ton of cost.
  37. # [00:09] <Philip`> Aleoss: Browsers haven't even got rid of <xmp> yet, and that was deprecated before 1993
  38. # [00:09] * aroben|afk is now known as aroben
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  42. # [00:09] <jgraham> (not to mention 10 year old content and 5 year old content or 1 year old content or entirely contemparary content)
  43. # [00:09] * shepazutoo is now known as shepazu
  44. # [00:09] <gsnedders> Aleoss: <b> was deprecated by HTML 4.0 twelve years ago. A decade more is 22 years after deprecation. The web hasn't yet even been around for 22 years, and the longest things that have been deprecated have been for 17 years and are still supported. Why is this going to be so different?
  45. # [00:11] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.66) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  46. # [00:12] <Aleoss> TabAtkins: A better example is <menu> or <dir> or <center>. They aren't even valid in the HTML 4.0 spec nevermind the HTML 4.01 or later.
  47. # [00:12] <jgraham> Browsers even support <plaintext> and dropping support for that might not be world-endingly-awful
  48. # [00:12] <gsnedders> And plaintext was never in /any/ spec.
  49. # [00:12] <gsnedders> Oh, no, that's untrue.
  50. # [00:12] <jgraham> But this discussion is silly
  51. # [00:12] <Aleoss> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/HTML_element#Document_body_elements
  52. # [00:14] <Aleoss> jgraham: According to that URL, <plaintext> was obsolete in HTML 2.0 and was never a HTML standard.
  53. # [00:14] <gsnedders> Aleoss: Yet browsers still support it.
  54. # [00:15] <eighty4> sorry for starting this debate :)
  55. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> Psh, not like we have anything better to do.
  56. # [00:16] <gsnedders> You mean talking about girls on IM isn't better? Oh shit — there goes all semblance of doing anything useful…
  57. # [00:17] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@rrcs-76-79-114-214.west.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  58. # [00:18] <Aleoss> Why talk about girls? They're all the same, only difference is that some are more beautiful and use that to their own advantage.
  59. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> ...
  60. # [00:19] <gsnedders> Some are cute and cuddly ^-^
  61. # [00:19] * TabAtkins thinks that most are, personally, though of course he only actually cuddles with his wife.
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  63. # [00:20] <jgraham> Aleoss: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/705 <-- try in your favourite browser. You will find that <plaintext> is quite functional wikipedia notwithstanding
  64. # [00:21] * jgraham thinks TabAtkins appraoch to determining cuddliness cannot be very scientific
  65. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> It's very scientific. My instruments are just more accepting.
  66. # [00:22] <gsnedders> Hmm, maybe we should be talking about huggability than cuddliness
  67. # [00:22] <jgraham> For all you know most woment hide a variety of pointy weaponry about their person
  68. # [00:22] <jgraham> Which would make cuddling them lethal
  69. # [00:23] <jgraham> *women
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  71. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> My experience does not back up that statement.
  72. # [00:23] <jgraham> Your experience is a sample of 1
  73. # [00:23] <jgraham> Not very scientific :)
  74. # [00:24] <jgraham> Is it obvious that I should be asleep already?
  75. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> My sample size was much larger in the past before public opinion required me to cut it down to a single specimen.
  76. # [00:24] <jgraham> Public opinion or your wife's opinion?
  77. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> I'll leave that to the media to decide.
  78. # [00:25] * gsnedders just runs around cuddling everyone
  79. # [00:25] <gsnedders> (as jgraham can attest, even though he never wanted to be cuddled)
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  81. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> But jgraham is inherently cuddly!
  82. # [00:26] <jgraham> You appear to be confusing me with paddington bear
  83. # [00:26] <jgraham> an easy mistake to make
  84. # [00:26] <jgraham> But I am not from Peru
  85. # [00:26] <Dashiva> You both speak English, though
  86. # [00:27] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@ip-81-11-185-27.dsl.scarlet.be) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  87. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> Dashiva's got you there.
  88. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> On a random note, my little brother is conducting extensive genetic studies of ghost/human hybrids in Sims 3. His results are fascinating.
  89. # [00:29] <eighty4> gsnedders: ok, one more question :)
  90. # [00:30] <gsnedders> eighty4: Ask the channel!
  91. # [00:30] <gsnedders> They're not scary.
  92. # [00:30] <eighty4> why not at least take one step in the right direction and say that in html5 if name is "missing" it should use id instaed
  93. # [00:30] <gsnedders> They don't bite!
  94. # [00:30] <eighty4> *instead.
  95. # [00:30] <gsnedders> eighty4: Content relies upon that not happening.
  96. # [00:30] <gsnedders> (Yes, seriously.)
  97. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> eighty4: Still not compatible with legacy content, which has plenty of form elements lying around with an id but no name.
  98. # [00:30] <eighty4> Just deciding that would likely make some people use it and would force new browsers to implement it
  99. # [00:31] <eighty4> TabAtkins: what would break?
  100. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Some forms would submit more inputs than expected.
  101. # [00:32] <eighty4> oh...
  102. # [00:33] <eighty4> yeah, just realized that
  103. # [00:33] <eighty4> it could cause validation problems on the server side, stupid ><
  104. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> form-processing scripts are just remarkably fragile all around, sadly.
  105. # [00:34] <eighty4> I still say, fuck legacy. It'st just stupid to strive for perfect legacy support. Imagine 100 years from now :P
  106. # [00:34] <gsnedders> Then you end up with IE6.
  107. # [00:34] <eighty4> and now it's time to sleep, 00.31 here. Way to late
  108. # [00:34] <gsnedders> The later versions break legacy content, so people keep using the old browser.
  109. # [00:35] <eighty4> gsnedders: ie7 is still broken just to support ie6 code
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  111. # [00:35] <gsnedders> So even all browsers at once making the breaking change doesn't help
  112. # [00:35] <eighty4> the net would need a total reinstall every 5 year. I say wipe it all!
  113. # [00:35] <eighty4> except for actual data, that is
  114. # [00:35] <eighty4> and recode it all!
  115. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> There are a trillion pages in existence, most of which depend on stupid legacy behavior in some form or another. Are you really willing to say "Hey everybody, start using this new browser which won't correctly render any of those trillion pages!"?
  116. # [00:36] <eighty4> Would make our work a lot simpler :P end the demand for webdevs a lot bigger
  117. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> Breaking windows to make work for the glassmaker isn't a net plus for the village. ^_^
  118. # [00:36] <eighty4> TabAtkins: no, I know :/
  119. # [00:37] <eighty4> it's not a solution, but at least let me dream about it
  120. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Legacy sucks, but that's how the world works. Shrug. Make the best of it.
  121. # [00:37] <eighty4> TabAtkins: well, it's not really how the rest of the world works. Is it?
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  123. # [00:39] <eighty4> hardware doesn't really work that way, computers don't come with a 5.25'' just to not break legacy. No one have walkmans any more
  124. # [00:39] <eighty4> and so on
  125. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Sure it is. The only difference is that the rest of the world has decay as a force that helps them obsolete stuff.
  126. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Bitrot isn't quite the same thing as decay. ^_^
  127. # [00:40] <eighty4> so you're saying we need more decay on the web?
  128. # [00:40] <eighty4> but NOW i need to sleep. Later!
  129. # [00:40] <gsnedders> And then they turn into zombies and — SHIT! THEY'RE COMING!
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  226. # [07:42] <hsivonen> gsnedders: HTML 4 didn't deprecate <b>! beware of the propaganda!
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  270. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen:
  271. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> ./htmlparser/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/Tokenizer.java:38: cannot find symbol
  272. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> symbol : class Auto
  273. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> location: package nu.validator.htmlparser.annotation
  274. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> import nu.validator.htmlparser.annotation.Auto;
  275. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> ^
  276. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> ./htmlparser/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/Tokenizer.java:39: cannot find symbol
  277. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> symbol : class CharacterName
  278. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> location: package nu.validator.htmlparser.annotation
  279. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> import nu.validator.htmlparser.annotation.CharacterName;
  280. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> ^
  281. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> etc.
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  283. # [09:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: hmm. have I forgotten to hg add stuff...
  284. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> yeah, figured that might be it
  285. # [09:49] <hsivonen> yes, I have. I suck. sorry
  286. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> no problem man :)
  287. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> no loss of life caused
  288. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> yet
  289. # [09:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: added & pushed
  290. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> thanks
  291. # [09:53] * MikeSmith rebuilds
  292. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ah, back to still getting these:
  293. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> ./htmlparser/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java:1229: method does not override a method from its superclass
  294. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> @Override public void zeroOriginatingReplacementCharacter()
  295. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> ^
  296. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> ./htmlparser/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java:5220: method does not override a method from its superclass
  297. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> @Override public boolean cdataSectionAllowed() throws SAXException {
  298. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> ^
  299. # [09:55] <hsivonen> let's see...
  300. # [09:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: how about now?
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  303. # [10:00] * hsivonen wonders why the compiler wasn't whining at me
  304. # [10:01] <annevk> http://www.benedelman.org/hardcoding/ -- not unexpected
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  307. # [10:05] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: now I see what's happening. I'm using Java 1.6 compiler and you are probably using a Java 1.5 compiler
  308. # [10:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: and the semantics of @Override changed between 1.5 and 1.6 to allow the use that I had in the source file
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  310. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah
  311. # [10:14] <MrWax> does anyone have an overview of the new css3 attributes that come with html5?
  312. # [10:14] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@131.113.209.182) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  313. # [10:16] <roc> MrWax: CSS3 is not part of HTML5
  314. # [10:17] <MrWax> Well, a lot people seem to define CSS3 WITH the HTML5 standard
  315. # [10:17] <MrWax> i know its not the same
  316. # [10:17] <ako> http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2010/meet-newt-new-exciting-web-technologies/
  317. # [10:17] <ako> NEWT :>
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  321. # [10:27] <annevk> MrWax, but now you're asking people defining the HTML5 standard
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  332. # [10:36] <annevk> it seems we need to set up our own charset registry
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  334. # [10:36] <annevk> reasoning with these guys is not really feasible
  335. # [10:37] <annevk> tried twice now
  336. # [10:37] <annevk> i actually think it should just be one spec that has all the mappings
  337. # [10:37] <annevk> no registry needed
  338. # [10:37] <annevk> it's all legacy anyway
  339. # [10:38] <hsivonen> annevk: who are "these guys"
  340. # [10:38] * hsivonen is lacking context
  341. # [10:39] <hsivonen> oh charset registry
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  359. # [11:27] <annevk> is markp member of the WG?
  360. # [11:27] <annevk> I think that is another req
  361. # [11:27] <jgraham> Oh, it could be
  362. # [11:28] <jgraham> If not he should join
  363. # [11:28] <jgraham> Or get someone else to do the commit
  364. # [11:28] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&public=1 -- he is not
  365. # [11:30] * jgraham will self-reply
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  374. # [12:15] <annevk> hmm, CSS blog uses en-EU
  375. # [12:16] <erlehmann> can anyone tell me what difference gecko and webkit have so that webkit does load the script and gecko (20100916) does not? http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/src/blinkenworld/index.html
  376. # [12:18] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@220.109.219.245) (Remote host closed the connection)
  377. # [12:30] <hsivonen> annevk: it's a valid language tag
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  379. # [12:30] * jgraham is lost in WebIDL (again)
  380. # [12:31] <hsivonen> erlehmann: OpenLayers does UA sniffing for "Safari" and "MSIE"
  381. # [12:31] <jgraham> Where does it define how readonly maps into ECMAScript
  382. # [12:31] <hsivonen> erlehmann: Firefox 4 has neither of those substrings, so the script breaks
  383. # [12:31] <jgraham> i.e. which ES properties it corresponds to
  384. # [12:31] <hsivonen> erlehmann: http://trac.osgeo.org/openlayers/ticket/2933
  385. # [12:32] <annevk> hsivonen, can you do en-NL and such too?
  386. # [12:32] <annevk> or en-FI
  387. # [12:32] <hsivonen> annevk: sure
  388. # [12:32] <erlehmann> hsivonen, UA sniffing bad. but this does not seem to be my problem?
  389. # [12:32] <annevk> good times
  390. # [12:33] <hsivonen> erlehmann: I don't know of other problems with OpenLayers
  391. # [12:34] <erlehmann> >please run the document.write()-based code path in all browsers
  392. # [12:34] <erlehmann> ahahahaha
  393. # [12:36] <hsivonen> well, if you want to block the parser, document.write is what HTML5 gives you
  394. # [12:36] <erlehmann> hsivonen, you seem to be an expert on javascript execution order. is there any gooy way to ensure that OpenLayers is loaded until I load my script?
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  396. # [12:37] <hsivonen> erlehmann: ooh. you have defer in there
  397. # [12:37] <hsivonen> erlehmann: that won't work
  398. # [12:37] <hsivonen> *never* use defer on a script that might call document.write
  399. # [12:38] <hsivonen> and we know this script calls document.write in some cases
  400. # [12:38] <erlehmann> i didn't.
  401. # [12:38] <erlehmann> hmmpf
  402. # [12:39] <hsivonen> erlehmann: is there an OpenLayers tutorial recommending defer, or did you use defer on your own initiative?
  403. # [12:39] <erlehmann> i thought it was some canvas based solution. until i looked. will probably encounter many more “interesting” things.
  404. # [12:40] <erlehmann> hsivonen, i used it on my own initiative because i wanted to defer script execution. after all, the document should be fully ready, my thought.
  405. # [12:40] <jgraham> OK, lazyirc, is there any reason that calling delete on a readonly property should not return false? Assuming we are not in strict mode.
  406. # [12:40] <hsivonen> erlehmann: anyway, I can't answer your question with certainty without examining all the code in OpenLayers, but my guess is your script will load after OpenLayers if you remove defer from both
  407. # [12:40] <jgraham> e.g. delete document.body
  408. # [12:41] <hsivonen> erlehmann: defer is rarely any good
  409. # [12:41] <hsivonen> erlehmann: it still defers the load event, so it doesn't help with perceived performance
  410. # [12:41] <hsivonen> erlehmann: defer mainly exists for backwards compat at this point
  411. # [12:42] <hsivonen> async actually makes sense for some use cases, but unfortunately async scripts are specced to delay the load event, too
  412. # [12:42] <erlehmann> hsivonen, i removed it, but it does not seem to help. thanks anyway
  413. # [12:43] <hsivonen> erlehmann: not helping in which browser?
  414. # [12:44] <erlehmann> firefox 3.6
  415. # [12:45] <hsivonen> oh. 3.6
  416. # [12:45] <hsivonen> no idea what's going on then
  417. # [12:45] <hsivonen> erlehmann: if you put "Safari" in your UA string, does the script work?
  418. # [12:48] <hsivonen> jgraham: fwiw, my support case about the Ubuntu jumpiness got closed without any real solution except not trying to do so much stuff on this hardware
  419. # [12:49] <hsivonen> jgraham: however, on the linux kernel mailing list, there's now a patch that could make my case better
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  421. # [12:49] <hsivonen> jgraham: so the options seem to be waiting for natty or do-it-your-self kernel patching and compiling
  422. # [12:50] <virtuelv> HTMLMediaElement.playbackRate fails to define what should happen to the audio when increasing the playback rate
  423. # [12:50] <erlehmann> hsivonen, changes nothing. seems to be something else that makes OpenLayers not werk.
  424. # [12:51] <hsivonen> erlehmann: ok
  425. # [12:51] <hsivonen> virtuelv: worth filing a spec bug, I guess
  426. # [12:51] <virtuelv> hsivonen: probably, but I'm unsure which is the right behavior
  427. # [12:52] <virtuelv> for me, it would have been decidedly useful if the playback rate altered the pitch, instead of working as a timestretch
  428. # [12:52] <virtuelv> but I can see why this is not sensible for the general case
  429. # [12:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: yeah, I saw think thing about the kernel patch
  430. # [12:55] <jgraham> *the thing
  431. # [12:55] <erlehmann> hsivonen, got it. openlayers cannot into empty divs.
  432. # [12:56] <erlehmann> if i insert a node, everything is fine.
  433. # [12:56] <erlehmann> weird.
  434. # [12:56] <erlehmann> even a text node does work.
  435. # [12:56] <erlehmann> :(
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  442. # [13:41] <zcorpan> i wonder if mozilla people can agree on whining in the error console for websockets
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  447. # [14:04] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11326 looks so totally out of scope to me
  448. # [14:05] <hsivonen> esp. considering the drive to LC
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  450. # [14:06] <annevk> it's filed after the LC date
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  456. # [14:30] <virtuelv> hsivonen: that proposal looks like it belongs in at least a number of other wg's
  457. # [14:31] <virtuelv> probably webapps
  458. # [14:32] <virtuelv> or even an entirely new WG
  459. # [14:32] <hsivonen> virtuelv: is the proposal asking for features one would put in a general purpose browser?
  460. # [14:33] <hsivonen> virtuelv: or is it asking for features one would put in a set top box that reuses a browser engine to implement a cable TV UI?
  461. # [14:34] <virtuelv> I see the value in having local service discovery in a local browser
  462. # [14:34] <virtuelv> s/local/general purpose/
  463. # [14:34] <hsivonen> I see. I hope the local services aren't trying to be entangled into MPEG stuff
  464. # [14:34] <virtuelv> so, say you have a web-based media player service
  465. # [14:34] <hsivonen> (4 or 2)
  466. # [14:35] <virtuelv> the local media server could potentially offer video sources for playback through the browser
  467. # [14:35] <hsivonen> virtuelv: so if you have a local box that serves WebM video, you could already navigate to it, no?
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  469. # [14:36] <virtuelv> hsivonen: the point is that your local videos could be directly integrated with youtube
  470. # [14:37] <virtuelv> so: go to youtube, see a mix of local and remote media in the sidebar
  471. # [14:37] <hsivonen> virtuelv: oh.
  472. # [14:37] <Philip`> It sounded to me like a general purpose desktop browser should be able to discover set top boxes on the local network, so e.g. you could visit a TV channel's web site and it could find you've got a box and do <video src="rtmp://192.168.12.34"> and call some API to tell the box to switch to the right channel, or something
  473. # [14:37] <virtuelv> that, however, sounds downright scary
  474. # [14:37] <virtuelv> and/or fun
  475. # [14:38] <Philip`> (with appropriate security controls etc)
  476. # [14:38] <virtuelv> then again, I am only commenting on the UPnP service discovery part here, not that
  477. # [14:40] <hsivonen> my knee-jerk reaction is that it sounds scary that a Web site out there could query for services on the other side of the firewall
  478. # [14:40] <hsivonen> even with user authorization
  479. # [14:47] <heycam> jgraham, if you didn't get an answer earlier: readonly attributes in IDL currently map to configurable accesor properties with a getter but no setter
  480. # [14:47] <heycam> jgraham, and thus calling delete on them will succeed
  481. # [14:48] <heycam> (previously, when Web IDL targetted ES3, these properties were ReadOnly ones and you couldn't delete them)
  482. # [14:49] <hsivonen> what would be a good tool for creating nice-looking flowcharts in SVG?
  483. # [14:50] <hsivonen> stuff like http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/ie8-mode.png but in SVG
  484. # [14:50] <heycam> hsivonen, hmm not really sure. i know lots of people like OmniGraffle for mac. (which i believe can output SVG.)
  485. # [14:50] <hsivonen> heycam: last time I tried OmniGraffle Pro, its SVG export was rather broken
  486. # [14:50] <heycam> hsivonen, was that done with graphviz?
  487. # [14:50] <hsivonen> maybe I should try again
  488. # [14:50] <hsivonen> heycam: OmniGraffle non-Pro
  489. # [14:50] <heycam> ah
  490. # [14:50] <paul_irish> http://svg-edit.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/editor/svg-editor.html maybe?
  491. # [14:51] <annevk> that is kind of neat
  492. # [14:51] <hsivonen> paul_irish: looks like a generic drawing tool. does it support anchoring lines to flowchart boxes?
  493. # [14:51] <annevk> even supports fn+backspace
  494. # [14:52] <paul_irish> i doubt it. :)
  495. # [14:55] <hsivonen> hmm. $99.95 for SVG export...
  496. # [14:55] <jgraham> heycam: In what sense suceed?
  497. # [14:55] <jgraham> *succeed
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  499. # [14:55] <hsivonen> (upgrade from OmniGraffle 5 to 5 Pro)
  500. # [14:55] <heycam> jgraham, succeed as in return true and remove the property
  501. # [14:55] <heycam> hsivonen, ouch
  502. # [14:55] <jgraham> heycam: That seems very wrong
  503. # [14:55] <jgraham> delete document.body shouldn't have any effect
  504. # [14:56] <jgraham> But it should return true
  505. # [14:56] <jgraham> AFAICT
  506. # [14:56] <jgraham> So I am very confused
  507. # [14:56] <heycam> jgraham, orly?
  508. # [14:56] * heycam thinks a bit
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  510. # [14:57] <heycam> does the delete operator only delete own properties?
  511. # [14:57] <jgraham> heycam: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/706
  512. # [14:57] <jgraham> Good question; I will look
  513. # [14:58] <heycam> because Web IDL now specifies that the accessor properties for IDL attributes go on the prototype
  514. # [15:01] <jgraham> heycam: Ah, it does seem to be an own property only operation
  515. # [15:02] <heycam> jgraham, ok cool then no problem :)
  516. # [15:02] <jgraham> So delete document.__proto__.body should work?
  517. # [15:02] <heycam> yes
  518. # [15:05] <jgraham> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/707
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  520. # [15:05] <jgraham> heycam: Did I do something wrong?
  521. # [15:06] <heycam> jgraham, no but probably the spec doesn't match all browsers yet
  522. # [15:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: Do you foresee anyone actually making use of a expected_results field?
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  530. # [15:22] <jgraham> heycam: Is it desirable to be able to delete DOM properties from the prototype?
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  538. # [15:59] <heycam> jgraham, it's desirable that they can be reconfigured -- just as you can overwrite the properties that correspond to IDL operations
  539. # [16:02] <jgraham> heycam: Why?
  540. # [16:02] <jgraham> It seems like it would be poor form to ever write a script that actually did that
  541. # [16:02] <heycam> jgraham, so you can do monkey patching of the dom
  542. # [16:03] <jgraham> Hmm
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  544. # [16:03] <jgraham> Anyway, I have way I need
  545. # [16:03] <jgraham> *what
  546. # [16:03] <heycam> ok
  547. # [16:03] <heycam> someone was suggesting that a select few properties would be non-configurable
  548. # [16:03] <matjas> Does anyone know why/when the text/javascript MIME type was declared “obsolete”? http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4329#section-7.1
  549. # [16:03] <heycam> like window.location (i think)
  550. # [16:04] <matjas> annevk: I’ve read your old blog posts (plural) on the JavaScript MIME type but couldn’t find the answer there
  551. # [16:04] <jgraham> heycam: (thanks, btw :)
  552. # [16:04] <heycam> jgraham, np :)
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  554. # [16:05] <jgraham> matjas: I think it is some silly reason like people thinking it is prettier to use application/ for scripts
  555. # [16:06] <zcorpan> isn't the reason the same as text/xml being deprecated?
  556. # [16:06] <matjas> jgraham: I couldn’t think of any good reason either. text/javascript has great browsers support, according to http://krijnhoetmer.nl/stuff/javascript/mime-types/
  557. # [16:06] <matjas> zcorpan: What was the reason for that?
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  559. # [16:07] <annevk> JavaScript media types are somewhat messed up
  560. # [16:07] <zcorpan> matjas: encoding must be us-ascii if there's no charset= parameter, according to some RFC
  561. # [16:07] <annevk> servers do not need to use them, for instance
  562. # [16:09] <zcorpan> matjas: in practice, nobody implements the us-ascii requirement, servers traditionally use application/x-javascript for .js files, browsers ignore the server-provided mime type completely for <script src>, and <script type> has best browser compat with text/javascript (or omitted type altogether)
  563. # [16:10] <matjas> annevk: Oh, the MIME type can be blank? Would be interesting to test browser support for that.
  564. # [16:11] <matjas> zcorpan: I don’t understand the reasoning there. charset (as specified through the Content-Type header) has nothing to do with the plain MIME type AFAICS
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  567. # [16:13] <zcorpan> matjas: yes it does. for text/* the default encoding (according to the unimplemented RFC, don't know the number) is us-ascii unless the charset parameter is set, and the message body can't override it
  568. # [16:14] <zcorpan> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2046 has the us-ascii requirement
  569. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks for the parser changes
  570. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> everything seems to be working as expected now
  571. # [16:15] <zcorpan> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3023 has details around text/xml
  572. # [16:16] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: nice
  573. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> I'm updating the validator.w3.org instances now
  574. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> they were pretty far out of date with upstream
  575. # [16:17] <matjas> zcorpan: I see. Thanks for your explanation.
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  577. # [16:20] <zcorpan> matjas: http 1.1 has a different encoding default, and the html and css specs require that the message body can set the encoding for text/html and text/css (actually text/css and text/javascript can inherit the encoding from the embedding document)
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  579. # [16:21] <zcorpan> matjas: so what mime and http 1.1 say are mostly academic since higher level specs don't follow it (except text/xml, but nobody implements it that way)
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  581. # [16:26] <hsivonen> bah. gedit can't handle named-character-references.html from the multipage spec
  582. # [16:26] <hsivonen> crashed
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  588. # [16:40] <matjas> zcorpan: So basically, text/javascript can still be used, even though it’s officially “obsolete”.
  589. # [16:41] <matjas> It doesn’t really matter much, but `text/javascript` is obviously shorter than `application/javascript` or `application/x-javascript`.
  590. # [16:41] <matjas> Good to know!
  591. # [16:43] <zcorpan> matjas: yeah. my conclusion is "don't touch the server config for .js files since it doesn't matter anyway" and "just use "<script>", type="" is not necessary"
  592. # [16:44] <matjas> I knew about the latter ;)
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  610. # [17:38] <Philip`> About submitting tests: Given that it's a DVCS, maybe mpilgrim should just push to a public copy of the repository and then someone with W3C access can push them across
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  612. # [17:38] <Philip`> Seems a bit silly to get hung up by lack of access permissions
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  614. # [17:40] <zcorpan> "2. Microsoft engineers working on Internet Explorer 9 could have been using the SunSpider Benchmark and unintentionally over-optimized the JavaScript engine for the SunSpider Benchmark." - http://digitizor.com/2010/11/17/internet-explorer-9-caught-cheating-in-sunspider-benchmark/
  615. # [17:40] <zcorpan> how can you over-optimize something?
  616. # [17:40] <jgraham> People seem a bit concerned about having the logs correspond to who submitted what
  617. # [17:40] <jgraham> zcorpan: If you optimize for a specific case at the expense of the general case
  618. # [17:41] <jgraham> It's a classic thing to do wrong in machine learning
  619. # [17:41] <jgraham> where you make something that works perfectly for the training data but poorly for other data
  620. # [17:42] <zcorpan> ah. ok.
  621. # [17:43] <jgraham> (I am not really sure why people are worried about the accuracy of the logs or whether having someone else push mpilgrim's changes would be a problem)
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  686. # [20:07] <tabatkin1> Hixie: You around?
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  688. # [20:08] <annevk> hsivonen, did you donate in a way that made money not show up at local chapters?
  689. # [20:09] <annevk> hsivonen, I am undecided yet, but I do not really care for my money ending up at the Dutch chapter of Wikipedia
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  691. # [20:10] <annevk> anyone taken a look at what markp submitted?
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  710. # [20:51] <annevk> omg so much grandstanding again in http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/11/17/html5-and-real-world-site-performance-seventh-ie9-platform-preview-available-for-developers.aspx
  711. # [20:53] <miketaylr> i like how html5 is the first word...for an article on chakra
  712. # [20:56] <jgraham> I like the fact that they bemoan microbenchmarks and then only present sunspider results, the microest of all microbenchmarks
  713. # [20:57] <jgraham> If there was any more irony, the article would have serious problems walking past magnets
  714. # [21:03] <espadrine> Just been on http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/, and there it was, written in big bitmap letters, "Cool, you're using a Chrome 9 nighly build!" But what exactly would have been "un-cool"? Internet Explorer.
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  717. # [21:04] <jgraham> mpilgrim: It looks like you just changed the mode of some Microsoft tests to me. Or did I miss something
  718. # [21:05] <mpilgrim> ah, that would explain it
  719. # [21:05] <mpilgrim> i've backed it out
  720. # [21:05] <mpilgrim> and will resubmit from a fresh clone
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  722. # [21:07] <jgraham> The new values looked more sensible :)
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  725. # [21:07] <mpilgrim> i was testing privately on a remote server and running into permission problems
  726. # [21:08] <mpilgrim> some of my tests re-use Microsoft's common/media.js to get a supported video or audio URI
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  732. # [21:13] <jgraham> Hmm, I see that it is not sufficiently obvious how I intended the harness to be used
  733. # [21:13] <jgraham> This is my fault of course
  734. # [21:15] <jgraham> But there are clearly cases where more of the test setup could be in the step()
  735. # [21:15] <karlcow> http://norman.walsh.name/2010/11/17/deprecatingXML
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  737. # [21:22] <mpilgrim> jgraham: i am happy to update tests if i'm using the harness incorrectly, or even just suboptimally
  738. # [21:23] <mpilgrim> presumably these will be rolled into an actual harness someday
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  740. # [21:23] <mpilgrim> all the tests i just submitted were designed to be run automatically
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  742. # [21:24] <mpilgrim> but i haven't done anything wild and crazy like actually testing that or anything
  743. # [21:25] <jgraham> mpilgrim: It is mostly a style point. My "vision" (although it was really nothing so grandiose) was that one would wrap almost all code for a particular test in either test.step(function(){}) or test(function(){}) (for sync tests)
  744. # [21:26] <jgraham> That way unexpected failures in some part of the setup code would be caught by the harness and other tests on the page could still run
  745. # [21:26] <mpilgrim> i am happy to do that
  746. # [21:26] <mpilgrim> but i've opted for one test per page
  747. # [21:26] <jgraham> I like one test per page :)
  748. # [21:27] <jgraham> But it doesn't always make sense
  749. # [21:27] <mpilgrim> as it will make submitting bugs easier
  750. # [21:27] <jgraham> e.g. if you are autogenerating 10,000 tests from some javascript
  751. # [21:27] <jgraham> Making 10,000 files a quite the overhead
  752. # [21:28] <jgraham> So the harness(which should have been called framework) supports both
  753. # [21:28] * jgraham remembers that the reason it was not called "testframework.js" was that we already had something with that name on an internal server
  754. # [21:28] <mpilgrim> yes, i saw AryehGregor's reflection tests
  755. # [21:29] <jgraham> :)
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  757. # [21:29] <mpilgrim> one file that generates enough tests to expose a dozen bugs in 3 browsers... that's impressive
  758. # [21:30] <mpilgrim> so far i've only found bugs in IE
  759. # [21:30] <mpilgrim> and webkit, only insofar as we don't support the <video audio> attribute yet
  760. # [21:31] <mpilgrim> no, i take it back, i found 1 bug in opera
  761. # [21:31] <mpilgrim> tests/submission/Google/video/canPlayType/canPlayType_application_octet_stream.html
  762. # [21:31] <mpilgrim> fails in opera
  763. # [21:31] <zcorpan> that's known :)
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  765. # [21:32] <zcorpan> (the spec used to require 'maybe' for that case)
  766. # [21:32] <mpilgrim> yes, it's a strange thing
  767. # [21:32] <mpilgrim> my test case was actually the exact opposite until i read the spec three more times
  768. # [21:33] <zcorpan> heh
  769. # [21:33] <mpilgrim> in one place it says "The MIME type "application/octet-stream" with no parameters is never a type that the user agent knows it cannot render."
  770. # [21:33] <mpilgrim> but elsewhere it says "The canPlayType(type) method must return the empty string if type is a type that the user agent knows it cannot render or is the type "application/octet-stream""
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  775. # [21:34] <mpilgrim> tests are hard
  776. # [21:35] <mpilgrim> let's create a grammar to express assertions and replace the spec with a bunch of those
  777. # [21:36] <espadrine> seems like the complexity is externalized to the spec in this case!
  778. # [21:39] <zcorpan> mpilgrim: some tests have 30 or 60 seconds timeout if i'm reading it right. do they need to be that long?
  779. # [21:40] <mpilgrim> make media.w3.org faster
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  782. # [21:40] <mpilgrim> whoa
  783. # [21:41] <mpilgrim> apparently when you join the working group, you start getting email
  784. # [21:41] <mpilgrim> i was wondering where i had gone wrong in my life that roy fielding was in my inbox
  785. # [21:42] <mpilgrim> Matches: list:"<public-html.w3.org>" Do this: Skip Inbox
  786. # [21:45] <annevk> :)
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  812. # [22:29] <zcorpan> http://www.favbrowser.com/browser-adoption-rate-looks-good/ - i wonder how much of the "other versions" is nightly/alpha/beta/dev of the *next* release
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  830. # [23:03] <jgraham> zcorpan: I'm pretty sure it is almost none
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  833. # [23:04] <jamesr_> i hope they mean chrome >= 7.0
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  836. # [23:06] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, those bugs were filed in the same era that i was in support of xhtml2 and where acid2 was written assuming we couldn't change the spec
  837. # [23:06] <Hixie> and where i thought quirks mode was a good idea
  838. # [23:06] <Hixie> and where dbaron and i thought the way to fix css was to define the inline box model and margin collapsing to be what CSS2 implied it had to be, rather than doing something compatible with UAs
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  840. # [23:10] <jgraham> Hixie: This multi-day lag is confusing. It's like getting echos from the past
  841. # [23:10] <Hixie> heh
  842. # [23:10] <Hixie> sorry, was offlien yesterday
  843. # [23:10] <Hixie> offline, too
  844. # [23:11] <jgraham> :)
  845. # [23:12] <jgraham> jamesr_: Why would you assume that? They explicitly say "equal to"
  846. # [23:12] <jamesr_> well that would mean their article is worthless
  847. # [23:13] <jgraham> It doesn't even seem to properly account for point releases
  848. # [23:13] <jgraham> Their article probably is worthless, but not because some tiny fraction of people are running dev versions
  849. # [23:14] <jamesr_> the % of chrome users running 6.0 and lower is way less than 10%
  850. # [23:14] * Quits: kbrosnan (~kbrosnan@firefox/community/qa/kbrosnan) (Quit: rebooting biab)
  851. # [23:15] <jgraham> Well if you already know that, the article is clearly worthless because you already know the result :)
  852. # [23:15] <jamesr_> i only know the %s for chrome
  853. # [23:16] <jgraham> Well they claim that 90% of people run chrome exactly equal to 7
  854. # [23:16] <jgraham> If that doesn't match your numbers then one or both of you are wrong
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  856. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> I'm confused: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11333 What the hell does that even mean?
  857. # [23:17] <jamesr_> there's a decent number of users on chrome 8 and chrome 9 currently
  858. # [23:18] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: i read it to mean that "title" is outdated (no idea why), and thus we should mint another name
  859. # [23:19] <jamesr_> who filed that?
  860. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> jamesr_: Someone random.
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  862. # [23:24] <jgraham> TabAtkins: If you are going to try to decipher every lunatic bug report, we could be here a while
  863. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> I was wondering if it was a lunatic, or it was actually saying something reasonable.
  864. # [23:25] <jgraham> Well given that they appear to want to rename the <title> tag for no particular reason, my crankometer is showing a definite reading
  865. # [23:27] <Philip`> I assumed they meant title="", not <title>
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  867. # [23:28] <jgraham> Would that explain why it is filed agianst the 2d context spec?
  868. # [23:29] <jgraham> (I guess @title would make marginally more sense than <title>. But not a lot more)
  869. # [23:29] <Philip`> Isn't the component derived automatically by Hixie's script?
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  871. # [23:30] <Philip`> (presumably incorrectly in this case)
  872. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> This is a #top bug, so it's filed on a W3C-version spec.
  873. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> Presumably the canvas 2d one?
  874. # [23:33] <Philip`> If they mean the title attribute, maybe they mean the spec's own usage of the attribute
  875. # [23:33] <Philip`> since it's used for crossreferences rather than for titling
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  877. # [23:33] <jgraham> I thought maybe they mean the usage of <title> in the example. Although I see nothing wrong with it
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  879. # [23:35] <jgraham> But the @title usage is more reasonable
  880. # [23:35] <jgraham> Sadly W3C pubrules prevent the obvious solution being employed
  881. # [23:35] <jgraham> (data attributes)
  882. # [23:36] <Philip`> Maybe we could guess an email address based on the hostname of the IP address of the submitter, and ask for clarification
  883. # [23:36] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.17.217) (Quit: othermaciej)
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  887. # [23:41] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
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  896. # [23:54] <Hixie> you can tell which spec the bug was filed from from the Specification: link which is derived from the Referer: header sent to my script
  897. # [23:54] * Joins: nimbupani (~Adium@cpe-67-248-57-130.nycap.res.rr.com)
  898. # [23:57] <Philip`> Where does the Component field come from?
  899. # [23:57] <Hixie> it's in the form
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  902. # Session Close: Thu Nov 18 00:00:00 2010

The end :)