/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-11-18 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:03] <Philip`> Ah
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  124. # [04:23] <karlcow> http://www.slideshare.net/danwrong/bringing-the-sameorigin-policy-to-its-knees
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  130. # [04:37] <karlcow> https://github.com/oyvindkinsey/easyXDM#readme
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  189. # [09:25] <asmodai> hsivonen: Noticed the memory leak problem again yesterday, but I'll be fecked if I can trace it :(
  190. # [09:30] <hsivonen> :-(
  191. # [09:30] <hsivonen> jgraham: speaking of memory leaks, is nautilus consuming insane amounts of RAM for you?
  192. # [09:35] <asmodai> hsivonen: so it's leaking right now, any hints/tips to track it?
  193. # [09:35] <asmodai> Wish I had Purify on this box
  194. # [09:37] <hsivonen> asmodai: sorry, I have no idea how to investigate memory leaks in an opt build. someone else on #developers on irc.mozilla.org might know
  195. # [09:37] <hsivonen> asmodai: this is on Windows, right?
  196. # [09:41] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@92.86.248.97)
  197. # [09:41] <hsivonen> why does this list have both Safari and Apple WebKit? http://www.networkworld.com/news/2010/111510-google-chrome-dirty-dozen.html
  198. # [09:42] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  199. # [09:43] <asmodai> hsivonen: yea
  200. # [09:48] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@seg75-1-81-57-242-198.fbx.proxad.net)
  201. # [09:50] <jgraham> hsivonen: I don't think so. I am still on 10.04 though. With 9.10 or whatever I had before I would sometimes get gconfd consuming insane amounts of RAM, but that seems to be fixed
  202. # [09:52] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok. I had nautilus consume insane amounts of RAM and my system got much better when I killed nautilus
  203. # [09:52] <hsivonen> asmodai: sorry, no one who'd know seems to be awake on #developers
  204. # [09:53] <hsivonen> my current gconf problem is in that my .gconf/ gets corrupted on relogin and I have to restore it from backup
  205. # [09:53] <jgraham> hsivonen: I usually have browsers consuming insane amounts of RAM. Can't really blame Ubuntu for that :)
  206. # [09:53] <hsivonen> jgraham: that's different and expected
  207. # [09:53] <jgraham> Indeed :)
  208. # [10:00] <asmodai> hsivonen: no worries, I'll see what I can do to get details.
  209. # [10:00] <asmodai> hsivonen: Think I still have an old Purify laying around somewhere
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  217. # [10:19] <hsivonen> annevk: I used the Paypal button on en.wikipedia.org
  218. # [10:20] <hsivonen> annevk: It didn't occur to me that I should have my donation tallied for a local chapter
  219. # [10:21] <hsivonen> but then, I use en.wikipedia.org for pretty much all topics except Finnish history, geography and plants
  220. # [10:22] <hsivonen> so as of now, WebKit is the only one of the top 4 engines that doesn't download document.written scripts in parallel
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  224. # [10:50] <jgraham> Hahaha
  225. # [10:50] <jgraham> I love the hg response to authorisation failure
  226. # [10:50] <jgraham> """1500 lines later
  227. # [10:50] <jgraham> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded
  228. # [10:51] <jgraham> """
  229. # [10:51] <jgraham> (this may strictly be something W3C screwed up rather than the Mercurial people)
  230. # [10:52] <jgraham> othermaciej: What do you think the advantage is of requiring HTMLWG membership?
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  234. # [11:02] <asmodai> jgraham: Can't remember having seen that with many hg repos I use and the eventual problems that arise.
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  236. # [11:04] <jgraham> asmodai: Pushing over https? Anyway, as I say, I'm not sure whose fault it is. But it is a pretty user0unfriendly way of saying "Not authorised to push to this repository"
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  241. # [11:10] <asmodai> jgraham: mmm, not sure if it was https
  242. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> is http://sandbox.thewikies.com/ Jon Neal's site?
  243. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: ↑
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  246. # [11:15] <hsivonen> Is the named character table trying to hide the glyphs on hover?
  247. # [11:15] <hsivonen> or in the graphics layer of Gecko broken
  248. # [11:16] <hsivonen> apparently a page bug
  249. # [11:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: sometimes the named character table fails to show the glyphs when the hovering ends
  250. # [11:16] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith, howdy!
  251. # [11:16] <JonathanNeal> That's me.
  252. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> hey brother man
  253. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> that's some sweet javascript
  254. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> the audio thing
  255. # [11:17] <JonathanNeal> which one?
  256. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> http://sandbox.thewikies.com/iphone-audio/
  257. # [11:17] <JonathanNeal> ty :D
  258. # [11:17] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de)
  259. # [11:17] <JonathanNeal> it's just createElement, load, play.
  260. # [11:18] <JonathanNeal> I guess iPhone Safari had it slipped in and no one noticed.
  261. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> seems so
  262. # [11:18] <JonathanNeal> This is great news. I hope the same buttons give developers ideas.
  263. # [11:19] <JonathanNeal> A sound board, a gps nav, a music page, etc.
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  266. # [11:19] <jgraham> Does anyone know where the unicode.xml file lives?
  267. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> I'm sitting next to Jonathan Stark and showed it to him
  268. # [11:19] <asmodai> hsivonen: *cry* [O] Pure: (EIP: 0x3f02e1d3): unexpected execution path
  269. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: so maybe he'll be inspired
  270. # [11:19] <asmodai> hsivonen: What good is a memory leak tool if it cannot run the binary >_<
  271. # [11:20] <JonathanNeal> Nice. I'll definitely create a Super Mario Bros sound board :P
  272. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the glyph hiding seems to work as expected in my Minefield
  273. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> on OSX
  274. # [11:21] <hsivonen> asmodai: :-(
  275. # [11:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: fails for me in Minefield and Chrome dev channel on Linux64
  276. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> weird
  277. # [11:24] * gsnedders wonders if some of the Xvfb memory leaks that are happening are race-condition dependent, thus the higher frequency of them on ARM v. x86_64
  278. # [11:26] * Joins: youdontmeanmuch (~youdontme@ip70-180-185-2.lv.lv.cox.net)
  279. # [11:26] * jgraham bemoans the difficulty of reading the entity table at 80% zoom
  280. # [11:26] * jgraham also wonders if gsnedders is typing in the right window
  281. # [11:28] * gsnedders is mumbling it here because someone here might have a clue
  282. # [11:28] <jgraham> gsnedders: In that case, what you said makes no sense
  283. # [11:29] <jgraham> I mean you gave no context
  284. # [11:29] <jgraham> "the Xvfb memory leaks" doesn't refer to anything
  285. # [11:29] <jgraham> You just crashed most of the participants as they tried to dereference the null pointer
  286. # [11:29] <jgraham> implied by the word "the"
  287. # [11:30] <jgraham> Right now, somewhere in darkest Japan, MikeSmith is just saying "NullPointerException" over and over
  288. # [11:31] <jgraham> And will keep doing so until someone resets him
  289. # [11:31] <jgraham> Think before you mumble, man!
  290. # [11:32] * Quits: ormaaj (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ormaaj) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  291. # [11:33] <hsivonen> jgraham: throwing JVM exceptions is better than segfaulting
  292. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I'm saying nam myo ho renge kyo
  293. # [11:34] <JonathanNeal> I'm seeing which events are supported for audio
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  296. # [11:39] <JonathanNeal> I'm pretty sure these events are not working on the iPhone: canplay, canplaythrough, canshowcurrentframe, durationchange, empty
  297. # [11:39] <JonathanNeal> However, I'm pretty sure these are: ended, loadstart, play, progress, suspend
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  304. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: Jonathan Stark is wondering if you know why the audio element doesn't cause the Quicktime player to pop up
  305. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> the way it does for video
  306. # [11:54] <JonathanNeal> Yea, because they exposed the <audio></audio> tag.
  307. # [11:54] <JonathanNeal> But it left the door open.
  308. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: ?
  309. # [11:55] * Joins: davidc (~davidc@62.231.145.254)
  310. # [11:55] <JonathanNeal> The latest iOS allowed for the <audio> element to be used inline on a page.
  311. # [11:56] <davidc> jgraham: glad to have brought some happiness to your life
  312. # [11:56] <paul_irish> on the ipad only, though, right?
  313. # [11:56] <JonathanNeal> On the iPhone too.
  314. # [11:56] <jgraham> davidc: :)
  315. # [11:56] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  316. # [11:56] <paul_irish> oh! cool.
  317. # [11:57] <JonathanNeal> So this left some of the js api open for audio too.
  318. # [11:57] <jgraham> The tests look fine btw (dunno if you saw my mail yet)
  319. # [11:58] <JonathanNeal> I don't think .load() even works correctly.
  320. # [11:59] <JonathanNeal> It triggers load start, but it never triggers any other events that I yet know of.
  321. # [11:59] <davidc> jgraham: oh thanks I just saw on the archive.
  322. # [12:00] <JonathanNeal> load() triggers loadstart, but play() triggers loadeddata
  323. # [12:01] <JonathanNeal> And you can only load so many files on a page, I think.
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  325. # [12:01] <davidc> jgraham (or anyone) what's the feeling about visual tests, you can do so much in javascript, but at some point you want to test that mfrac 1 2 does look like a 1 over a 2 with a line between, the mathml test suite takes ages to run because it's almost all visual subjective checking
  326. # [12:02] <jgraham> davidc: My feeling about visual tests is… not positive (to be polite)
  327. # [12:02] <jgraham> In some cases they are necessary though
  328. # [12:02] <jgraham> But generally the preferred order is javascript tests > reftest > manual test
  329. # [12:03] <jgraham> I guess reftesting mathml could be challenging though
  330. # [12:03] <jgraham> (maybe Mozilla have some examples?)
  331. # [12:03] <JonathanNeal> The audio needs to be at least 200ms
  332. # [12:03] <davidc> jgraham: I think the thing to do in math is just have the basic auto ests to see if there is any support at all, in html test suite, then suggest people who care run the full mml test suite at some other time 9when they have some spare time:-)
  333. # [12:05] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  334. # [12:06] <jgraham> That also makes sense because actually supporting the rendering of MathML is not required hy HTML5.
  335. # [12:06] <jgraham> *by
  336. # [12:06] <jgraham> (just like for SVG)
  337. # [12:06] <davidc> jgraham: well yes there is that, but that's not a fact I'm particularly wanting to highlight:-)
  338. # [12:07] <jgraham> I am very much in favour of people implementing MathML too :)
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  343. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> heh - http://twitter.com/#!/henrikfalck/status/5215729586540544
  344. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> "it only took 10 years to reinvent <BGSOUND> RT @jon_neal Background audio on the iOS mobile webkit? Yup, we got that. http://j.mp/c4zCwE"
  345. # [12:14] <jgraham> davidc: It occurs to me that you are the ideal person to tell me where unicode.xml lives :)
  346. # [12:14] <jgraham> (that is the right name for the file with all the entities in, yes?)
  347. # [12:14] <davidc> jgraham: It's on this laptop
  348. # [12:14] <jgraham> Does it have a URL?
  349. # [12:15] <davidc> http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007xml/
  350. # [12:15] <davidc> or w3c cvs version of that if you have access
  351. # [12:15] <jgraham> davidc: Thanks. Easier than stealing your laptop
  352. # [12:15] <davidc> good thing this internet, it might catch on
  353. # [12:16] <zcorpan> im in ur internets, stealin ur entities
  354. # [12:23] <JonathanNeal> i can get the other events to trigger in weird ways, but nap time.
  355. # [12:23] * JonathanNeal is now known as JonathanNeal_zzz
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  445. # [16:57] <jgraham> OK, this has been bothering me all day. In the conetxt of 11338
  446. # [16:58] <jgraham> +bug
  447. # [16:58] <jgraham> who or what is "Zeros"
  448. # [16:58] <Philip`> A person on #html-wg
  449. # [16:58] <jgraham> Oh
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  451. # [16:58] <jgraham> I guess if I didn't habitually ignore that channel I could have saved myself a bunch of bother
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  453. # [16:59] <Philip`> The bug now says "Zeros = Elliott from the HTML WG" too
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  486. # [17:58] <annevk> "Please see discussions on media type at the Lyon f2f meeting. In the end we decided to go with application/font-woff because past experience showed that attempting to registera font top level type would encounter significant resistance at IANA." -- not that font media types matter at this point (also partially due to IETF/IANA) but this is another case for having a simple wiki imo
  487. # [17:58] <annevk> s/case/argument/
  488. # [17:58] <othermaciej> jgraham: if I were designing it from scratch, I would make accounts be separate from everything and on-demand, rather than tied to either HTML WG or having a W3C account
  489. # [17:59] <TabAtkins> annevk: What's that from?
  490. # [17:59] <othermaciej> jgraham: but if they are to be handed out en masse, HTML WG seems like a more sensible condition than "has W3C account for any reason"
  491. # [17:59] <annevk> some email
  492. # [17:59] <TabAtkins> We... *didn't* decide to do that, though, unless it happened in the hour or two of meetings after I left on Friday.
  493. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> We explicitly decided on Thursday to try for a font/woff declaration.
  494. # [18:00] <annevk> okay, well, it doesn't matter
  495. # [18:00] <annevk> fonts are sniffed
  496. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  497. # [18:00] <Philip`> If Hg access was independent of the W3C membership system, might as well just stick the official repository on Bitbucket and give write access to whoever's trusted with it and let everyone else fork it
  498. # [18:01] <jgraham> othermaciej: The experience of two non-members of HTMLWG wanting to submit tests whilst both were W3C members does suggest that "has W3C account for any reason" is a more useful condition than "is HTMLWG member"
  499. # [18:01] <Philip`> rather than bothering with getting W3C people to maintain the service
  500. # [18:02] <jgraham> I think W3C would not be happy with that setup. I imagine they like being in control to some extent
  501. # [18:02] <david_carlisle> jgraham: personally I could probably just join html wg to simplify matters but I thought math wg might have a special interest in mathml in html and be more likely to submit tests if they could just do it
  502. # [18:02] <david_carlisle> same for svg
  503. # [18:02] <othermaciej> jgraham: well, it extends the completely unknown random set of people who might commit something broken (whether accidentally or maliciously) from hundreds to thousands
  504. # [18:02] <othermaciej> I guess that hasn't generally been a problem for w3c cvs
  505. # [18:03] <annevk> it hasn't
  506. # [18:03] <othermaciej> but cvs actually has meaningful audit trails
  507. # [18:03] <annevk> if they install a plugin mercurial has too
  508. # [18:03] <annevk> they're looking into adding that
  509. # [18:03] <jgraham> othermaciej: I trust the D in DVCS to save us there, as long as people can't submit things that execute automatically
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  511. # [18:04] <jgraham> Or, at least, I don't understand what the threat is
  512. # [18:04] <othermaciej> the weird thing to me about the setup is that you have to commit to the master repository to contribute a test at all
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  514. # [18:05] <jgraham> othermaciej: What setup would you expect?
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  518. # [18:08] <othermaciej> jgraham: most projects I am familiar with that include a source repository do not have becoming a committer and then committing as step 1 for any contributor
  519. # [18:10] <jgraham> You would expect people to post a diff or something?
  520. # [18:11] <jgraham> Or maybe request a pull, but that is typically rather harder to set up
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  561. # [19:32] <karlcow> Opera is far too advanced for Google it seems - http://www.20thingsilearned.com/
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  566. # [19:48] <jacobolus> karlcow: in that link, justified text in somewhat narrow columns sure looks shitty with no hyphenation
  567. # [19:49] <jacobolus> e.g. from page 10, In the traditional world of desktop
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  569. # [19:53] <Philip`> I love trying to read content that's displayed as about two paragraphs at once and takes two seconds to switch to the next two paragraphs and takes ten seconds to first load
  570. # [19:53] <Philip`> It's so much better than just having a web page with text on it
  571. # [19:55] <Ms2ger> Of course it is, it came out of Google
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  573. # [19:59] <jacobolus> Philip`: you don't like flippy page animations?!
  574. # [19:59] <jacobolus> how old fashioned
  575. # [20:03] <Philip`> They were cute when I first saw them, around 2003, where they were better implemented than this (you could drag corners up and down rather than just side to side)
  576. # [20:03] * Quits: ChrisLTD (~iMac@ur185.ur.unc.edu) (Quit: ChrisLTD)
  577. # [20:05] <Philip`> (Also they had content on both sides of the pages that moved properly as you dragged, rather than just being a totally blank static thing)
  578. # [20:06] <Hixie> hsivonen: the hover thing is just a :hover rule in CSS that makes the glyph bigger, i don't see how the page could be doing anything buggy there
  579. # [20:10] <mpilgrim> so here's a random question: is there an easy way to check for support for events like ondrop?
  580. # [20:10] <mpilgrim> is there some platonic ideal of a drop event that one could create manually and check its properties?
  581. # [20:11] <Hixie> you can test for 'ondrop' in HTMLElement
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  583. # [20:12] <Hixie> but i don't know if it'll work everywhere
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  586. # [20:13] <mpilgrim> "ondrop" in HTMLElement returns false in Chrome
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  588. # [20:13] <mpilgrim> or am i misunderstanding?
  589. # [20:13] <Hixie> Chrome might be one of the places where it doesn't work
  590. # [20:13] <Hixie> does "onclick" in HTMLElement work?
  591. # [20:14] <Hixie> or "onclick" in anActualElement?
  592. # [20:14] <Hixie> e.g. "onclick" in new Image() ?
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  594. # [20:14] <mpilgrim> "ondrop" in document.body returns true
  595. # [20:14] <mpilgrim> neat
  596. # [20:15] <Hixie> probably just a difference between what elements and element prototypes do
  597. # [20:15] <Hixie> not sure what WebIDL actually requires these days
  598. # [20:15] <heycam> these days it requires IDL attributes causing properties to appear on prototypes
  599. # [20:15] <heycam> and not on the instances themselves
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  601. # [20:17] <mpilgrim> ("ondrop" in document.body) returns false in Minefield and Opera 11 :(
  602. # [20:17] <mpilgrim> is that because they don't support it or because the test is invalid?
  603. # [20:18] <mpilgrim> (usually i know in advance which browsers support a feature i'm testing, but here i realize i have no clue)
  604. # [20:18] <Hixie> dunno about opera but iirc firefox has a bug with how it exposes event handlers
  605. # [20:18] <Hixie> again, try "onclick"
  606. # [20:18] <Hixie> as a control
  607. # [20:19] <mpilgrim> javascript:alert("onclick" in document.createElement("a")) returns false in Minefield
  608. # [20:19] <mpilgrim> :(
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  610. # [20:19] <Hixie> try looking for "draggable" in an element
  611. # [20:20] <Hixie> that might work if they implemented the whole HTML DND model rather than just what IE5 had
  612. # [20:21] <mpilgrim> ("draggable" in document.createElement("a")) returns true in Chrome, Minefield
  613. # [20:21] <mpilgrim> false in Opera 11
  614. # [20:21] <Hixie> TabAtkins: if application/font-woff isn't the type you think should be registered, note that it's being registered in the ietf-types list
  615. # [20:21] <mpilgrim> wow, that's amazing, that was my next question
  616. # [20:22] <mpilgrim> chrome debugger is complaining about "Resource interpreted as font but transferred with MIME type application/x-woff"
  617. # [20:23] <mpilgrim> it seems no matter what MIME type I use for fonts, I get nasty email about it
  618. # [20:23] <mpilgrim> it's the kobayashi maru of web development
  619. # [20:24] <AryehGregor> What's wrong with just application/woff? Why is the font- prefix needed?
  620. # [20:25] <Hixie> what's wrong with font/truetype ? :-)
  621. # [20:26] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@2620:0:1b00:1f08:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a) (Remote host closed the connection)
  622. # [20:26] * mpilgrim finds https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/61269/?advanced=on
  623. # [20:27] <mpilgrim> which doesn't answer my MIME type question, but is pretty funny regardless
  624. # [20:27] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@2620:0:1b00:1f08:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a)
  625. # [20:27] <mpilgrim> wasn't the entire point of TypeKit (and WOFF for that matter) so you couldn't just download web fonts?
  626. # [20:28] <Hixie> how would it stop you from downloading web fonts?
  627. # [20:28] <mpilgrim> dunno, i stopped paying attention back when that foundry guy was talking about adding a bozo bit to font tables
  628. # [20:29] * Quits: murz (~mmurraywa@174-21-111-3.tukw.qwest.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  629. # [20:30] <Philip`> mpilgrim: The point of WOFF was at least partially to guarantee compression, and the point of TypeKit seems largely to provide a convenient easy-to-use system for buying and using commercial fonts
  630. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> Not "download", but "install trivially on Windows".
  631. # [20:31] <Hixie> lol, image/svg+xml registration once again stymmied, this time by julian
  632. # [20:31] <TabAtkins> What. The. Fuck.
  633. # [20:32] <mpilgrim> it's generally a bad idea to invent a new format based on the premise of what is "trivial"
  634. # [20:32] <TabAtkins> mpilgrim: Agreed, but shrug. It got everyone to shut the hell up.
  635. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> And has extremely minor technical consequences.
  636. # [20:33] <mpilgrim> but i will concede that the WOFF fonts i use are smaller than their TTF and OTF counterparts
  637. # [20:36] <mpilgrim> nope, i take that back. gzipping the TTF generates consistently smaller files
  638. # [20:36] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@rrcs-76-79-114-214.west.biz.rr.com)
  639. # [20:37] <mpilgrim> did we really invent an entire format based on the fact that some people don't use gzip correctly?
  640. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> No, we invented it to make people shut up. Any compression benefits are nice if they exist, but unnecessary if they don't.
  641. # [20:38] <TabAtkins> (And it *should* be smaller. Interesting.)
  642. # [20:38] <mpilgrim> that makes even less sense, but ok
  643. # [20:38] * Parts: jordantbro (~Jordan@c-67-190-176-41.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  644. # [20:38] <TabAtkins> I know people certainly tested several fonts with the per-table-zlib compression that WOFF settled on vs gzip, and the former consistently won.
  645. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> mpilgrim, "on*" in element doesn't work in Gecko, except for onhashchange, known bug
  646. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> Though, it's not required that WOFF producers zip the tables, so maybe your woff producer doesn't?
  647. # [20:40] <mpilgrim> dunno, i use fontsquirrel.com/fontface/generator with identical subsetting
  648. # [20:40] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@67.218.105.175) (Quit: othermaciej)
  649. # [20:40] <mpilgrim> the ungzipped file sizes are significantly different, but the entire difference disappears after gzipping the TTF
  650. # [20:40] <mpilgrim> files i'm testing are at http://diveintohtml5.org/f/essays1743-webfont.[eot|svg|ttf|woff]
  651. # [20:41] <mpilgrim> ms2ger: thanks, good to know
  652. # [20:42] <mpilgrim> looks like "draggable" in document.createElement("span") is the best test
  653. # [20:42] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~Henrik@c83-249-65-238.bredband.comhem.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  654. # [20:43] <Philip`> TabAtkins: There's enough shared structure between different font tables that I don't see why per-table compression wouldn't lose out to whole-file compression
  655. # [20:43] <Philip`> but I can't find any references with actual data
  656. # [20:44] <Philip`> (Seems the more compelling reason for per-table compression is that you can decompress individual tables and ignore ones you don't want)
  657. # [20:44] <Hixie> TabAtkins: doing something to shut people up makes no sense. there's an easier way to solve the problem of people disrupting, and that's to ignore them. we have very good technology to do that these days.
  658. # [20:44] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Shrug, I'm just remembering conversations from www-font a while back.
  659. # [20:45] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Shrug, I just want to be able to deliver a single font format in a few years, and WOFF did the job faster than anything else.
  660. # [20:46] <Hixie> TTF did it faster
  661. # [20:47] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.17.203)
  662. # [20:47] <TabAtkins> Not for real; only the subset of fonts that have everything set up free.
  663. # [20:49] * Quits: bckenny (~bckenny@nat/google/x-mtwwvwtssggapvez) (Remote host closed the connection)
  664. # [20:49] <AryehGregor> Hixie, the point was to get IE to support it.
  665. # [20:49] <Hixie> IE supports TTF
  666. # [20:50] <TabAtkins> The subset of TTF that has everything set up free.
  667. # [20:50] <AryehGregor> Anyway, they originally said they wouldn't.
  668. # [20:50] <AryehGregor> Mildly stupid compromises are acceptable if it means people can actually ship the same code to IE and everyone else.
  669. # [20:51] * Quits: mpilgrim (~pilgrim@64.134.149.52) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  670. # [20:52] * Quits: slightlyoff (~slightlyo@2620:0:1b00:1f01:21e:c2ff:febe:eb40) (Quit: slightlyoff)
  671. # [20:52] <othermaciej> reddit is the worst thing to happen to Web accessibility in a long time
  672. # [20:53] <othermaciej> at least half the front page posts are direct links to images of text
  673. # [20:54] <Ms2ger> reddit is the worst thing to happen to the Web in a long time
  674. # [20:54] <Ms2ger> ftfy
  675. # [20:56] <othermaciej> I don't know if I can agree with that
  676. # [20:56] <othermaciej> overall, digg is still worse
  677. # [20:56] <othermaciej> but they tend more towards The <N> Things You Need to Know About Topic <X>
  678. # [20:56] <othermaciej> instead of images of text
  679. # [20:57] * Joins: cying (~cying@173-228-29-224.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  680. # [20:57] <othermaciej> I wonder if the people doing this even realize that it is totally fail for accessibility, and typically also for mobile devices
  681. # [20:57] <othermaciej> (since scaling up a downsampled image of text from an IE screenshot is unlikely to be legible)
  682. # [21:03] * Joins: nimbupani (~Adium@cpe-67-248-57-130.nycap.res.rr.com)
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  685. # [21:09] <othermaciej> does anyone in the testing TF actually understand how Mercurial works?
  686. # [21:10] * othermaciej wonders why it got picked in the first place, since no one seems to understand how to use the distributed capabilities...
  687. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> I understand how git works, so I at least get the distributed idea.
  688. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> (I don't know if I'm technically part of the testing TF. Probably not, unless signing up to the mailing list is enough.)
  689. # [21:12] <othermaciej> signing up for the mailing list is enough
  690. # [21:12] <othermaciej> I wish I did not have to try to explain how DVCS works, since it's not something I understand really well myself
  691. # [21:13] <AryehGregor> Are you referring to some thread there? I'll probably get to it today, if so, and chip in if it seems like I can add anything.
  692. # [21:14] <AryehGregor> I don't think the distributed aspect of Mercurial is so useful for the W3C, except for the associated performance advantages (which are substantial).
  693. # [21:14] <AryehGregor> It lets non-WG members more easily submit stuff, I guess, but it's pretty easy to become a WG member.
  694. # [21:14] * Joins: murz (~mmurraywa@wcproxy.msnbc.com)
  695. # [21:15] <othermaciej> I think I should just stay out of further discussion
  696. # [21:15] <othermaciej> since I don't participate very actively
  697. # [21:15] <othermaciej> I am not even sure how to get approval on the one test I submitted
  698. # [21:16] <AryehGregor> I think you just have to ask someone else to look at it.
  699. # [21:16] <jgraham> othermaciej: I like to pretend I understand how Mercurial works
  700. # [21:17] <othermaciej> I don't understand why using a DVCS with a centralized repository model makes sense for a test suite
  701. # [21:17] <jgraham> And I understand that people could clone+publish and we could pull that changeset
  702. # [21:17] <othermaciej> it just seems to make things harder to use, with no actual benefit
  703. # [21:17] <othermaciej> it's not like you need long-lived personal branches for a test suite
  704. # [21:17] <othermaciej> especially since we have personal staging areas in the master repository
  705. # [21:18] <jgraham> I consider that a requirement, actually
  706. # [21:18] <jgraham> It is useful for vendors
  707. # [21:18] <othermaciej> it is?
  708. # [21:18] * othermaciej , as a vendor, is intrigued to learn how
  709. # [21:18] <jgraham> I think so
  710. # [21:19] <jgraham> You can replace bits and pieces of the harnesses so they integrate with your regression tracking system
  711. # [21:19] <othermaciej> if we wanted to import a snapshot of some or all of the test suite, we would just import it into our repository
  712. # [21:19] <othermaciej> not clone the master Hg repository and try to track it
  713. # [21:19] <jgraham> Yeah, we do that. It *really* sucks
  714. # [21:19] <jgraham> Importing snapshots, I mean
  715. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, I find DVCSes more convenient even for centralized development.
  716. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> It lets me more easily organize and test changes before committing them.
  717. # [21:20] <jgraham> We typically end up with out of date, buggy versions of testsuites because doing updates is so hard
  718. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> I use git-svn if possible when forced to use an SVN repo.
  719. # [21:20] <othermaciej> it seems like the main effect is that for every operation, I have to type two commands
  720. # [21:20] <jgraham> Also, what AryehGregor said
  721. # [21:20] <jgraham> I use git or hg for all projects
  722. # [21:20] <TabAtkins> Urgh, I hate dealing with narrow-vs-wide string issues. >_< Python 3 would be nice, but I don't want to bother with switching over right now
  723. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> You don't have to push things right after you commit them.
  724. # [21:20] <jgraham> even if I am the only developer
  725. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> You can commit a few things in a row, then push them all at once.
  726. # [21:21] * AryehGregor uses git for tons of stuff where he's the only developer, but that's mainly because it's way easier to set up than svn
  727. # [21:21] <AryehGregor> (but rebasing is also nice for private repos)
  728. # [21:21] <jgraham> You can also commit as you work and then refactor the commits later
  729. # [21:21] <jgraham> using rebase
  730. # [21:21] <jgraham> Which is very nice
  731. # [21:21] <othermaciej> these considerations seem pretty irrelevant to a test suite
  732. # [21:22] <jgraham> I use it with the htmlwg testsuite
  733. # [21:22] <jgraham> I have a number of local patches that aren't ready to push yet
  734. # [21:22] <othermaciej> you refactor your commits on a test?
  735. # [21:22] * Quits: tonyg-cr (~Adium@nat/google/x-avxnpnljefmdvttw) (Quit: Leaving.)
  736. # [21:23] * Joins: slightlyoff (~slightlyo@2620:0:1b00:1f01:21e:c2ff:febe:eb40)
  737. # [21:23] <jgraham> I haven't yet, but I have one case where I will have to because a commit added many unnecessary files
  738. # [21:23] <jgraham> and I want to remove them from history
  739. # [21:24] <AryehGregor> I try to at least briefly review commits locally before pushing them.
  740. # [21:24] <jgraham> Anyway, I consider being able to use version control locally before sharing changes to be a huge win
  741. # [21:24] <othermaciej> I guess if I end up contributing to the HTML WG test suite more, I'll make some wrapper scripts so I don't have to do everything in two phases
  742. # [21:25] <othermaciej> so far my contribution is too small for my opinion to be relevant
  743. # [21:26] <jgraham> Your central objection is that you have to do 'hg ci -m "Commit message"; hg push' rather than 'svn ci -m "Commit message"'?
  744. # [21:26] <othermaciej> and also "hg pull; hg update" (I am not sure that is even in the right order) and the extra jumping jacks you have to do if you try to commit and the master has changed
  745. # [21:26] <othermaciej> (even if it has changed in a way that is totally unrelated to the files you touched)
  746. # [21:27] <othermaciej> I cannot even recite the "commit when things have changed" incantation from memory after doing it several times in the past few weeks
  747. # [21:27] <jgraham> If you enable the rebase extension doing hg pull --rebase might help you
  748. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> "hg pull; hg update" is silly, in git it's just "hg pull". I think you can enable something to make it "hg fetch".
  749. # [21:27] <jgraham> Yeah, I think there might be a fetch extension
  750. # [21:28] <Ms2ger> othermaciej, hg pull -u
  751. # [21:28] * jgraham would like the hg people to make some more useful extensions on by default
  752. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> This is part of why I dislike hg. git is nicer in this way.
  753. # [21:28] <Rik`> othermaciej: the ability to record your changes while being offline is really cool in DVCS
  754. # [21:28] <jgraham> Yes, git is nicer in this way
  755. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> Out of the box, you can do "git pull --rebase".
  756. # [21:28] <jgraham> Although it is less nice in other ways
  757. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> Like what?
  758. # [21:29] <othermaciej> apparently the full commit sequence is hg commit -m "My commit message"; hg pull; hg merge; hg commit -m "Merge."; hg push
  759. # [21:29] <charlvn> git feels much faster than hg while cloning, or is it just me?
  760. # [21:29] <jgraham> git probably is faster
  761. # [21:29] <Ms2ger> Git compresses, doesn't it?
  762. # [21:29] <jgraham> So does hg
  763. # [21:29] <jgraham> I think the git code is just faster
  764. # [21:29] <othermaciej> the thing that most confused me about git is the fact that every command is named "commit", except the one I would actually think of as committing (sending your change to the master repository)
  765. # [21:30] <jgraham> C+shell scripts compared to python
  766. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, you can do hg commit -m "My commit message"; hg pull --rebase; hg push if you have the rebase extension enabled.
  767. # [21:30] <jgraham> othermaciej: It feels like you haven't worked on a large project with git or hg?
  768. # [21:30] <Ms2ger> othermaciej, mercurial queues are useful
  769. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> I don't know why hg doesn't enable it by default, it's annoying that way.
  770. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> hg pull --rebase is only necessary if your copy isn't up-to-date.
  771. # [21:31] <Ms2ger> hg qpo -a && hg pull -u && hg qpu -a && hg qfin -a && hg pus
  772. # [21:31] <othermaciej> jgraham: I have tried a number of times to use git-svn or hg-svn with an svn-based project, and I generally gave up in frustration every time
  773. # [21:31] <othermaciej> I am sure there are cool benefits if you can actually make use of the fancy things they do, but they seem to make basic things harder
  774. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> Given the rate at which people commit to the testing repo, you probably can omit it.
  775. # [21:32] <othermaciej> so far all the times I tried to commit, I had to rebase
  776. # [21:32] * jgraham usually finds his copy is out of date :)
  777. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> . . . why is "hg help push" partly in German on my machine?
  778. # [21:32] <othermaciej> I don't think I am going to try install an extension to my version control system
  779. # [21:32] <othermaciej> to add a basic capability that it should already have
  780. # [21:32] <jgraham> othermaciej: The extensions are bundled, just not on by default
  781. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> Oh, because I'm on someone else's computer and didn't notice.
  782. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> And the other person is German.
  783. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> That makes sense.
  784. # [21:33] <jgraham> All you need to do is
  785. # [21:33] <jgraham> [extensions]
  786. # [21:33] <jgraham> rebase =
  787. # [21:33] <jgraham> in your ~/.hgrc
  788. # [21:33] * Quits: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: jeremyselier)
  789. # [21:34] <Ms2ger> Fun thing is that rebase can corrupt your commits
  790. # [21:34] * Quits: nimbupani (~Adium@cpe-67-248-57-130.nycap.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  791. # [21:35] <jgraham> othermaciej: It seems possible you would not get the feel of a dvcs using it on a project based on svn, because you would probably keep trying to use a svn-like workflow
  792. # [21:35] <othermaciej> sounds like I am better off just making my five-step shell script
  793. # [21:35] <jgraham> In particular if you are not making lots of local commits before you push (and, particularly in the case of git, using local branches), you are likely missing the point
  794. # [21:35] <othermaciej> jgraham: I think my bottom line is that when I do things that work fine in an svn-like workflow, I want them to not get any harder - I'd like to pay the cost for fancy features only if I actually want to use them
  795. # [21:36] <jgraham> othermaciej: Fair enough. All I can say is that after using hg and git, svn feels like it is based on a broken model
  796. # [21:37] * AryehGregor concurs with jgraham
  797. # [21:37] <jgraham> There are only two benefits of svn I can think of:
  798. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> They make SVN workflows harder because they think anyone who wants to actually use an SVN workflow hasn't really tried a DVCS workflow properly.
  799. # [21:38] <jgraham> 1) You don't need a copy of the complete history locally
  800. # [21:38] <jgraham> 2) Partial checkouts
  801. # [21:38] <jgraham> For certian repositories, those are essential features
  802. # [21:38] <othermaciej> I don't even really care about either of those things
  803. # [21:38] <jgraham> For everything else it feels broekn
  804. # [21:38] <othermaciej> the only benefit I find valuable is (3) simple things are simple
  805. # [21:39] <othermaciej> anyway
  806. # [21:39] <othermaciej> I have ranted enough
  807. # [21:39] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-cljqopmzlpfymbcz)
  808. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> If you define "simple things" to mean "things that are simple in SVN", then yes, that's tautological. :)
  809. # [21:39] <othermaciej> I feel like I shouldn't have to type 5 commands to commit a 1-line patch to a file that hasn't changed upstream
  810. # [21:39] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:11f3:249b:c8e:4394)
  811. # [21:39] * jgraham has the point of view that simple things are impossible
  812. # [21:39] <jgraham> e.g. making a local commit
  813. # [21:39] <othermaciej> (or enable an extension that might reduce it to 3 commands, but might corrupt my commits)
  814. # [21:40] <jgraham> Ms2ger: What is the deal with rebase corrupting things? Is it any worse than a normal merge?
  815. # [21:40] <Ms2ger> Accidentally deleting files without telling you, apparently
  816. # [21:41] <othermaciej> it sounds like the only solution is to convince myself that committing twice and updating twice are fundamentally the right thing, and my expectations are as foolish as wanting to edit the master directly with emacs
  817. # [21:41] <jgraham> Ms2ger: pointer?
  818. # [21:42] <Ms2ger> http://hg.mozilla.org/tracemonkey/rev/f9785814bdbc, for example
  819. # [21:42] <Dashiva> othermaciej: Don't lose hope
  820. # [21:42] <Dashiva> Maybe one day the DVCS-brainwashing will fade and people will come to their senses
  821. # [21:43] * Joins: david_carlisle (~davidc@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  822. # [21:43] <othermaciej> Dashiva: it seems more practical to brainwash myself
  823. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, more accurately, you're supposed to convince yourself that the distributed model is useful, and that you want to have local commits. Then the extra steps become logically necessary.
  824. # [21:43] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I was hoping you would have a pointer to an explaination so I could find out how to avoid it :)
  825. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> (or at least, some of them do -- as I said, hg is more verbose here than git)
  826. # [21:43] <Ms2ger> "Not", afaict
  827. # [21:44] <othermaciej> git just seems differently verbose
  828. # [21:44] <jgraham> You can probably set up a git client to a hg remote somehow, if that's your thing
  829. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> If the model is that you commit everything locally first, you're going to need at least one extra step to commit locally and then push to the origin.
  830. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> The rebase step could happen as part of the push if the files weren't touched by anyone else, hypothetically, like SVN does it.
  831. # [21:46] <othermaciej> I'm sure I can convince myself to have faith in Committing-Twiceism if I try hard enough
  832. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> Everyone else seems to, when they get used to it.
  833. # [21:47] <othermaciej> after all, I already believe in Committing-Onceism, so I am halfway there
  834. # [21:47] <jgraham> You are only commiting once
  835. # [21:47] <jgraham> You are sharing once
  836. # [21:47] <jgraham> We just need to convince you to believe in sharing :)
  837. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> When projects switch to git or hg, are there lots of people who remain perpetually annoyed and wish they were back on svn?
  838. # [21:48] <othermaciej> no idea
  839. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> I was about to ask about Mozilla, but their workflow basically pretends they still use SVN, so.
  840. # [21:48] <othermaciej> when we switched WebKit from CVS to SVN way back when, 0 people were annoyed afterwards
  841. # [21:48] * jgraham only knows about cvs-[git|hg]
  842. # [21:48] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I don't think that's true of Mozilla
  843. # [21:49] <othermaciej> probably because it was nearly transparent, except for the things that didn't work with CVS at all
  844. # [21:49] <jgraham> There seems to be a lot of mercurial features being used afaict
  845. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> jgraham, maybe not. I guess some of them use queues a lot.
  846. # [21:49] <david_carlisle> othermaciej: don't let them brainwash you, editing cvs ,v files in emacs is still TheOneTrueWay.
  847. # [21:49] <jgraham> e.g. mq seems to be heavily used
  848. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> To post patch series.
  849. # [21:49] <othermaciej> I wish there was a DVCS system like that, where you don't have to care that you are using it until you want to do stuff that you couldn't before
  850. # [21:49] <othermaciej> david_carlisle: too late, I told you I am already a Committing-Onceist
  851. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> But I haven't seen that many (if any) developers publish their own branches, for example.
  852. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> It's very much oriented around one central repository.
  853. # [21:50] <Ms2ger> We do use branches more than you think ;)
  854. # [21:50] <Ms2ger> Almost all JS engine work happens in another repository
  855. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> You still publish all patches via Bugzilla instead of using the built-in functionality for shuffling patches around, right?
  856. # [21:51] <Ms2ger> True
  857. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> So like, committers have to copy the patches off Bugzilla instead of just pulling from someone's repo.
  858. # [21:52] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-cljqopmzlpfymbcz) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  859. # [21:52] <Ms2ger> Well, most people just push themselves
  860. # [21:52] <jgraham> That seems like a bugzilla-oriented workflow rather than a svn-oriented workflow, really
  861. # [21:52] <jgraham> Maybe bugzilla ought to support hg better
  862. # [21:53] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.153.2) (Quit: boaz)
  863. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> True.
  864. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> It's possibly better than the Linux model of posting patches to a mailing list.
  865. # [21:54] <jgraham> (fun CVS fact, the author of "Version Management with CVS" sits a couple of floors above me. I'm told he is no longer a big fan)
  866. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> Although git has built-in support for that.
  867. # [21:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: Who?
  868. # [21:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: Per
  869. # [21:54] <othermaciej> is anyone a CVS fan these days?
  870. # [21:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: pc, specially. There's multiple Per's upstairs from you.
  871. # [21:55] <jcranmer> uh....
  872. # [21:55] <jgraham> (I might be wrong and horribly misrepresenting his opinion)
  873. # [21:55] <gsnedders> *specifically
  874. # [21:55] <jcranmer> doubt it
  875. # [21:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: But you managed to understand me anyway :)
  876. # [21:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: Google helped :)
  877. # [21:56] <jgraham> gsnedders: You should repay them in donuts
  878. # [21:57] <Ms2ger> Or contribute to their browser, I hear it's open source ;)
  879. # [21:57] <gsnedders> I hear I might have a conflict of interest there :)
  880. # [21:58] <jgraham> It must be quite depressing to write a book on something like CVS and then realise a few years later that everyone who uses it hates it with a passion
  881. # [21:59] <Philip`> If the book can teach them to use it slightly more productively and hate it slightly less, that still seems worthwhile
  882. # [22:00] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@c-68-40-243-245.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
  883. # [22:00] <jgraham> Not if you are one of the people that hates it
  884. # [22:01] <jgraham> And you have to live every day with the knowledge that you encouraged people to use it
  885. # [22:01] <jgraham> Anyway, in conclusion, I appreciate and make use of the distributed features of Mercurial in the context of the HTML testsuite
  886. # [22:01] <Philip`> Those people might have otherwise still been stuck with RCS, or cp
  887. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> Well, if you believe Linus Torvalds, posting patches and tarballs to mailing lists is a much better method of software development than CVS.
  888. # [22:02] <Philip`> I like Hg for the test suite primarily because diff is instant
  889. # [22:02] <Ms2ger> Philip`, only on small repositories ;)
  890. # [22:04] <AryehGregor> You can install an extension to make diff instant on all repos, right? By having it run a daemon in the background that watches for file changes?
  891. # [22:04] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Is it less instant than svn on the same sized repository?
  892. # [22:04] <AryehGregor> And yeah, it's still probably a lot faster than SVN.
  893. # [22:04] <Ms2ger> No idea, I'm lucky enough not to use svn
  894. # [22:05] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  895. # [22:05] <AryehGregor> Plus, I do find git diff to be instant on MediaWiki's repo, which is something like a gigabyte (not quite mozilla-central scale, granted).
  896. # [22:05] <jgraham> svn seems to be slow for pretty much everything
  897. # [22:05] <AryehGregor> Except checkout. It does beat DVCSes on that if you have a lot of history, although by an embarrassingly small margin.
  898. # [22:05] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I'm not sure if that is true
  899. # [22:06] <jgraham> At least checking out 10,000 files in svn can take hours
  900. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> It depends heavily on the configuration.
  901. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> I think if you configure the SVN server properly, it can do decently.
  902. # [22:06] <jgraham> That could be true
  903. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> Although I admit I might be wrong.
  904. # [22:07] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Checking out 20GB will never be quick, when it has two copies of every file in the checkout, so you have over 40GB of I/O
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  906. # [22:07] <gsnedders> (This is how git-svn clones can be smaller than SVN checkouts)
  907. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> Personally I have to admit that I once timed a git clone of my git-svn checkout of the entire MediaWiki repo including branches and tags and full history, from across the Atlantic, was faster than an SVN checkout over HTTP from a server in the same data center.
  908. # [22:07] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.246.18.81)
  909. # [22:08] * Philip` had to intentionally configure his SVN server to do slow checkouts, because in the default configuration it used up all his RAM :-(
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  911. # [22:09] <AryehGregor> DVCSes are definitely lighter load on the servers.
  912. # [22:10] <Philip`> I assume this was some kind of bug in SVN, since there's no good reason it should use 300MB of memory for a single in-progress checkout
  913. # [22:11] <gsnedders> But RAM is yummy! OM NOM RAM!
  914. # [22:12] * jgraham remembers having svn eat all his RAM
  915. # [22:12] <jgraham> But I don't recall what I was doing
  916. # [22:12] <jgraham> gsnedders probably does
  917. # [22:12] <gsnedders> Yeah, I've had that happen too. I think it was running "svn up" in a 20GB repo (with a 40GB working copy).
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  919. # [22:13] <jgraham> Oh, I might have been trying to checkout a large repo
  920. # [22:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: I like that you expect me to remember stuff better than you when it relates to you. :P
  921. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> I had git eat all my RAM when I tried to check in a multi-gigabyte file.
  922. # [22:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: You have a quite good memory. I don't
  923. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> Protip: git is not a good idea for incremental database backups.
  924. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> Or at least wasn't.
  925. # [22:14] * AryehGregor tries now, just for fun
  926. # [22:14] <jgraham> I suppose this could have been a few large files causing the explosion in RAM usage
  927. # [22:15] <gsnedders> jgraham: You're not the amusing one to discuss this with. It's more amusing to be able to say, "We discussed that before, remember? The night we also discussed how you get annoyed at my good memory?"
  928. # [22:15] <jgraham> But really there is no obvious reason that svn should use lots of memory just do do a checkout, irrespective of the repo size
  929. # [22:15] <jgraham> Whereas git has to calculate a diff and compress it
  930. # [22:15] <jgraham> So you can see how that might use lots of memory
  931. # [22:16] <jgraham> For big files
  932. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> Yes.
  933. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> Well, it doesn't need to calculate a diff for a newly-added file.
  934. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> But it does need to add it to the staging area when you do git add.
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  938. # [22:19] <jgraham> Why does adding it to the staging area use lots of RAM?
  939. # [22:20] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.132.73) (Quit: nn)
  940. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> Presumably it reads it entirely into memory first, or at least used to.
  941. # [22:20] * Joins: Aleoss (~AleossIRC@204-83-16-179.regn.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca)
  942. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> Since it's designed for source code, why not?
  943. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> Probably no one bothered to be more sophisticated.
  944. # [22:20] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-lsyrcrlhiuapkzgj)
  945. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> (I'm guessing it does some processing beyond just copying it, otherwise it'd use sendfile() or something.)
  946. # [22:20] <jgraham> I don't know why it should; I don't really know what the staging area is for
  947. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> Ooh, now I get "fatal: Out of memory? mmap failed: Cannot allocate memory"
  948. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> Presumably because I'm using a 32-bit system.
  949. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> Let me try again on a 64-bit system.
  950. # [22:21] <jgraham> Apart from making the git workflow slightly more complex than hg in simple cases
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  969. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> Yep, git add on a 12G file causes git to use over 1G of RAM before I kill it.
  970. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> jgraham, the staging area lets you commit something less than the full current state of the working copy.
  971. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> When I'm adding a feature or something and find I want to do some unrelated cleanup first, I sometimes do the cleanup and then use git add -i to commit only some of the changes, then proceed.
  972. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> I guess I could use git stash instead, but it seems less convenient and more error-prone (e.g., more likely to cause merge conflicts).
  973. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> Although I agree that overall, I don't see that the staging area is worth the extra complexity.
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  986. # [23:46] <cying> is it possible to parse a HTML document from within Javascript?
  987. # [23:47] <hober> cying: browser-side javascript or server-side javascript? either way, the answer is essentially yes
  988. # [23:47] <cying> hober: browser-side javascript
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  990. # [23:47] <JoePeck> innerHTML? =)
  991. # [23:47] <cying> hober: i'm not sure what to google for... setting innerHTML on a div element just gives me the children of the body element of a doc
  992. # [23:47] <JoePeck> I have a vague memory of something like document.implementation.createHTMLDocument
  993. # [23:48] <gsnedders> cying: Well, you could do something like var f = document.createElement("iframe"); f.onload = function(){alert(f.contentDocument);}; f.src="data:text/html," + htmlDocument;
  994. # [23:48] <gsnedders> JoePeck: That doesn't help.
  995. # [23:49] <cying> gsnedders: hmmm
  996. # [23:49] <cying> trying both suggestions, thanks folks
  997. # [23:50] <cying> (all three)
  998. # [23:50] <gsnedders> innerHTML works if you just have a fragment
  999. # [23:50] <gsnedders> (and is way better than the others if you just have a fragment)
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  1001. # [23:52] <JoePeck> yah, I don't recommend the document.implementation stuff. Prolly should refrain from even mentioning it
  1002. # [23:52] <gsnedders> Not supported by everyone, either
  1003. # [23:53] <cying> yeesh
  1004. # [23:55] <cying> hmmm both don't seem to work
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  1006. # Session Close: Fri Nov 19 00:00:00 2010

The end :)