/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-11-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Nov 20 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@2002:183c:117a:0:21e:52ff:fe76:c67f) (Remote host closed the connection)
  4. # [00:00] <Craig`> i know js syntax, and html/css to a deep level
  5. # [00:00] <Craig`> gah im typing slow because of dvorak
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  10. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Craig`: Try out some simple games. Checkers, or even tic-tac-toe first. That should only take a few hours to get right, and will teach most of the fundamentals of game programming.
  11. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Then do something more fun, like Worms.
  12. # [00:10] * TabAtkins has a demo of a simple Worms-like game he livecoded as part of a talk on developing games with Canvas.
  13. # [00:11] <Craig`> thanks, its just im unsure if i'd be able to solely work out the game logic
  14. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> Right, so start with a super-trivial game like ttt so you can learn how turn flow, painting order, etc. works before saddling yourself with a more complicated project.
  15. # [00:12] <Hixie> tab's advice is good
  16. # [00:12] <Hixie> also, url to worms game?!
  17. # [00:13] * Philip` notes that some people have been working on porting http://www.hedgewars.org/ (Worms clone) to JS
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  19. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> Hixie: http://www.xanthir.com/blog/b48D1
  20. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> It's very simply, and mainly intended as a didactic aid, not an actual game.
  21. # [00:16] <Craig`> thanks TabAtkins
  22. # [00:16] <Hixie> neat
  23. # [00:17] <Hixie> i like how you can keep firing while it's your turn :-P
  24. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> Like I said, simple and intended for didactic purposes only. ^_^
  25. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> Otherwise known as "I coded the whole thing the morning of my talk"
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  27. # [00:19] <Hixie> very neat
  28. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> I need to finish it out sometime and hand it over to the devrel team.
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  30. # [00:20] <Hixie> i've been playing with doing a multiplayer dungeon crawl type game, but i have no experience doing realtime client/server gaming code so i got bogged down in trying to write that part of the code
  31. # [00:20] <Hixie> haven't worked on it in ages though
  32. # [00:20] <Hixie> maybe i'll work on it some next week
  33. # [00:23] <Craig`> i just never get around to programming things, heh
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  36. # [00:37] <aho> js/canvas is very easy to use
  37. # [00:38] <aho> it's like any other 2d api... just a bit easier :>
  38. # [00:38] <boogyman> thanks for stating your opinion
  39. # [00:40] * Quits: Necrathex (~nectop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl) (Quit: Necrathex)
  40. # [00:41] <aho> Craig`, got some simple code over here: http://kaioa.com/node/104
  41. # [00:41] <Craig`> cheers
  42. # [00:41] <aho> and that simpleLoader thingy explained: http://www.reddit.com/r/javascript/comments/e5vhj/emulating_lossy_rgba_images_with_html5s_canvas/c15jr22
  43. # [00:43] <aho> wondered if i should write some straightforward game tutorial
  44. # [00:43] <Craig`> i always have ideas just if after googling a bit and no luck i tend to just go on games or alike
  45. # [00:43] <aho> (simpler than pong) :>
  46. # [00:43] <Craig`> id like that
  47. # [00:44] <Hixie> there's a lot of tutorials for the simple stuff, and there's lots of books on the advanced stuff, but what i haven't found is tutorials introducing the middle ground stuff, like how to actually implement multiplayer real-time games in principle (handling lag and the like)
  48. # [00:44] <aho> but first i gotta write about this: http://kaioa.com/k/bugger/bugger.js
  49. # [00:44] <aho> because it's so f-ing silly :)
  50. # [00:44] <heycam> is there a list of split-out specs that have been published at the w3c that still exist in the whatwg full version?
  51. # [00:44] <Hixie> yeah, it's on the whatwg faq
  52. # [00:45] <heycam> ah http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#What_are_the_various_versions_of_the_spec.3F thanks
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  54. # [00:46] <aho> handling lag is a f-ing mess
  55. # [00:46] <Craig`> so yeah, is there a list or alike for games to try to implement starting from easy? heh.
  56. # [00:47] <aho> i can explain the concepts of a game called ping (first game i ever wrote)... it's the bare minimum... it's just enough to call it a game
  57. # [00:48] <aho> there are two lanes... and a paddle which can be either on the left lane or the right one. a ball drops randomly... and you gotta deflect it... you can switch the lanes by pressing a key
  58. # [00:48] <aho> over time it gets faster
  59. # [00:48] <Craig`> tbh after reading some tuts i think i could have a go at pong
  60. # [00:48] <aho> and you get more points
  61. # [00:48] <aho> :>
  62. # [00:49] <aho> shoot em ups (the simple kind that is) are also very easy to write
  63. # [00:50] <Craig`> im guessing that once youve got the basics they seem to become easier
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  65. # [00:50] <Hixie> singleplayer (or locally multiplayer) pong and tic tac toe are both good starting games
  66. # [00:51] <aho> or apple chess
  67. # [00:51] <Hixie> i did rock paper scissors long ago :-) http://software.hixie.ch/fun/games/rps
  68. # [00:51] <Hixie> apparently the images for rock and paper have broken
  69. # [00:52] <aho> Adobe's license agreement for downloading Acrobat Reader is a PDF. Well done Adobe. Well done. - https://twitter.com/#!/robarnold/status/5753460003704833
  70. # [00:52] <aho> haha
  71. # [00:52] <Craig`> heh cool Hixie
  72. # [00:52] <Hixie> here's my tic tac toe http://software.hixie.ch/fun/games/tic-tac-toe
  73. # [00:53] <Hixie> did most of those over christmas of 2000 iirc
  74. # [00:53] <aho> http://mbtic.com/ddd (still not finished) :f
  75. # [00:54] <aho> 100% pure backtracking :)
  76. # [00:54] <aho> i do like logic maze games though
  77. # [00:55] <boogyman> Hixie: ttt fail :P
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  79. # [00:56] <Craig`> aho, i like that; you make it?
  80. # [00:56] <aho> ye
  81. # [00:56] <Craig`> very nice
  82. # [00:56] <aho> ~3kb js + ~83kb blob file
  83. # [00:57] <aho> <4kb for the page :)
  84. # [00:57] <Hixie> aho: pretty neat
  85. # [00:57] <Hixie> and pretty pretty too :-)
  86. # [00:57] <Craig`> im interested in webgl but im wanting to play around with canvas first
  87. # [00:57] <aho> :)~
  88. # [00:58] <Hixie> boogyman: how is it fail?
  89. # [00:59] <Philip`> Hixie: RTS-style multiplayer, or FPS-style multiplayer, or something else?
  90. # [00:59] <Hixie> Philip`: not sure what difference it makes in this context, can you elaborate?
  91. # [00:59] <aho> http://kaioa.com/k/rm2.avi <- also need to port that one over :)
  92. # [00:59] <boogyman> if the "computer" goes first and game ends on a draw, the last piece isn't placed prior to the "It's a draw" message being shown
  93. # [00:59] <aho> would be perfect as small n silly web game
  94. # [01:00] <Hixie> boogyman: it says "it's a draw" as soon as the game is a draw
  95. # [01:01] <Hixie> boogyman: which can be before all the pieces are placed
  96. # [01:01] <boogyman> Then it fails on the draw logic
  97. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> Hixie: ttt is solved. You should just say "It's a draw" immediately. ^_^
  98. # [01:01] <Philip`> Hixie: RTS usually has a lot more objects moving around the world, and usually allows more latency - you can press a key and then your input gets shared across the network and then executed simultaneously by every player perhaps 300ms later, and nobody notices the delay
  99. # [01:01] <Craig`> aho, thats brilliant!
  100. # [01:02] <aho> :)
  101. # [01:02] <Hixie> TabAtkins: it's not a draw if you play poorly :-)
  102. # [01:02] <Craig`> id love to be able to make things like that D:
  103. # [01:02] <Hixie> Philip`: i guess FPS, then, though it's actually a 2d over-the-top rendering in the current implementation
  104. # [01:02] <Philip`> Hixie: FPS requires much more responsive input, so usually it does some approximate client-side prediction and then tries to catch up with the server to stay in sync
  105. # [01:03] <Hixie> Philip`: imagine multiplayer pacman, where the position of the ghosts can't be 300ms behind
  106. # [01:03] <boogyman> Hixie: A draw can be already determined with 2 pieces yet to play
  107. # [01:03] <Hixie> Philip`: diablo 2 might be another good analogue
  108. # [01:04] <Hixie> boogyman: yeah i think it's only testing it on the computer's turn
  109. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Luckily for things like Pacman, you can do prediction pretty easily.
  110. # [01:04] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah, but it'd still be nice to have a tutorial somewhere that walked someone through this. It's not a hard problem, it's just something for which I've never seen good beginner tutorials.
  111. # [01:05] <Hixie> boogyman: specifically iirc what happens is that if the computer determines it can't either win or lose, it just says "it's a draw" instead of picking a move at random
  112. # [01:05] <boogyman> Yeah, I understand the logic :P
  113. # [01:05] <Hixie> well it's not a fail :-P
  114. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I guess I'll write on, then?
  115. # [01:05] <Hixie> TabAtkins: that'd be awesome :-)
  116. # [01:06] * TabAtkins has too many projects he wants to do this weekend since he has the whole thing to himself.
  117. # [01:06] * TabAtkins will probably end up doing none of them and just playing video games instead.
  118. # [01:06] <Philip`> Hixie: Okay, that sounds closer to the FPS style since you want to respond to player inputs faster than the network latency
  119. # [01:06] <boogyman> It's a half fail, because you stated as soon as the game is a draw, well it's a draw when neither player can win, not only if the computer cannot win
  120. # [01:07] <Craig`> brb moving from desktop to laptop
  121. # [01:07] * TabAtkins forgot that his wife is now involved in the story of Brutal Legend, and so he probably can't play it this weekend without her.
  122. # [01:07] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah
  123. # [01:07] * Quits: Craig` (~craig@host81-141-118-214.wlms-broadband.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  124. # [01:07] <Dashiva> Story
  125. # [01:07] <Dashiva> That's also a word to use to describe it
  126. # [01:07] <Hixie> boogyman: it's just attempting to act like a human -- i generally when playing would not say "it's a draw" after i played, only before i played.
  127. # [01:07] <Philip`> Hixie: If it was the other thing then I would have pointed at http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3094/1500_archers_on_a_288_network_.php?print=1 as a useful article, but it's probably entirely irrelevant here
  128. # [01:08] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: It has a perfectly servicable (and awesome) story.
  129. # [01:08] <TabAtkins> (Though the metal is more important.)
  130. # [01:08] * TabAtkins has rediscovered the metal his dad listened to through this game.
  131. # [01:08] <Hixie> Philip`: interesting, thanks
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  133. # [01:10] <craiggles> hey again
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  135. # [01:13] <Hixie> Philip`: very interesting stuff
  136. # [01:14] <boogyman> wb Craig
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  151. # [01:44] <hober> using the DOM, is it possible to add new comment nodes before the document.documentElement?
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  155. # [01:47] <Hixie> hober: in theory yes
  156. # [01:47] <Hixie> untested though
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  159. # [01:53] <hober> document.documentElement.insertBefore(ref_to_comment_node) ?
  160. # [01:53] * hober will give that a try (in tmpvar's js impl of the dom)
  161. # [01:54] <Dashiva> Wouldn't it be document.insertBefore(comment, document.documentElement)?
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  163. # [01:54] <hober> (I'm trying to add paul_irish-style IE conditional comments before <html> in a document that I'm creating with the DOM and then serializing
  164. # [01:55] <hober> Dashiva: probably
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  529. # [16:16] <pererik_> /nick pererik
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  536. # [16:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: Siny? You should write something that does lots of tinagle-based graphcs. Sure to be very siny
  537. # [16:37] <jgraham> *triangle
  538. # [16:40] <jgraham> Ms2ger: You could have tried pdf2pdf or something
  539. # [16:40] <jgraham> (but the pdf worked for me, so...)
  540. # [16:41] <Ms2ger> I wouldn't have known whether the new PDF would work for Kris
  541. # [16:41] <jgraham> No, me neither
  542. # [16:42] <jgraham> I suppose he is useing acrobat
  543. # [16:42] <jgraham> on Windows
  544. # [16:42] <jgraham> If you had such a thing to test with
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  546. # [16:51] <Philip`> You should have made it an XPS file instead
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  549. # [17:01] <Ms2ger> jgraham, btw, would you mind adding MIT headers to your new Anolis files?
  550. # [17:08] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I don't mind it happening
  551. # [17:09] <jgraham> I would be quite surprised if I actually do it though
  552. # [17:09] <Ms2ger> Okay
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  591. # [19:16] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@130.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  592. # [19:19] * Joins: maikmerten_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-124-163.dynamic.qsc.de)
  593. # [19:20] * Quits: Peter` (~peter@170-116.citynet.ftth.internl.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  594. # [19:21] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@170-116.citynet.ftth.internl.net)
  595. # [19:21] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-130-211.dynamic.qsc.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)

The end :)