/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-11-26 / end

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  46. # [02:11] <bga_> :)
  47. # [02:12] <bga_> night guys
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  54. # [02:43] <itissid> I want to understand a trend here... Is it a given that most of google gears will/already has moved into HTML5 and google gears will become a legacy project...
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  59. # [03:08] <MikeSmith> itissid: Gears has already become a legacy project, quite a while back
  60. # [03:08] <MikeSmith> all the work is going instead into trying to put features into the core Web platform itself
  61. # [03:08] <MikeSmith> to get them implemented natively across multiple browsers
  62. # [03:09] <itissid> Is there a page showing the cross browser adoption of the features specific to gears that were moved to HTML5
  63. # [03:09] <MikeSmith> not that i know of
  64. # [03:09] <MikeSmith> most people working on this stuff tend to be pretty busy and pages like that don't get put together so often
  65. # [03:10] <MikeSmith> not updated once they have been put together
  66. # [03:10] <MikeSmith> do to lack of time to get them written up and maintained
  67. # [03:10] <MikeSmith> in part because things are just changing very quickly
  68. # [03:11] <itissid> hmm
  69. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> we are in the midsts of what is by far the most rapid pace of significant new features going into the Web platform that there has ever been in the entire history of the Web
  70. # [03:13] <itissid> Yeah I noticed... I had not worked in gears at all... Then i made an Chrome Extension which used things like local storage and Webworkers and then read that this was all a gears idea initially...
  71. # [03:16] <MikeSmith> yup
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  74. # [03:20] <Aleoss> Hello everyone.
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  186. # [10:58] <matjas> http://twitter.com/WHATWG hasn’t been posting updates since Sept 1st — intentional?
  187. # [10:58] <matjas> Not switched to oAuth yet?
  188. # [10:59] <zcorpan> matjas: iirc nobody noticed when it broke so Hixie figured that it was pointless
  189. # [10:59] <matjas> zcorpan: Real shame, I loved that stream.
  190. # [11:00] <jgraham> matjas: You are exactly the second person to complain
  191. # [11:00] <slartsa> oh there was something in twitter
  192. # [11:01] <matjas> jgraham: Damn. I’d noticed it before, just never realized it was because of Twitter switching to oAuth.
  193. # [11:02] <matjas> How does everyone keep track of spec changes nowadays (besides this channel, that is)? There doesn’t seem to be a syndication feed either.
  194. # [11:03] <hsivonen> matjas: subscribing to bugmail and spec change mail
  195. # [11:03] <hsivonen> matjas: and keeping open an insane number of bug / spec tracker tabs for later inspection
  196. # [11:03] <matjas> hsivonen: I was afraid so :)
  197. # [11:03] <jgraham> matjas: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
  198. # [11:04] <jgraham> You could probably convince annevk to add a feed
  199. # [11:04] <matjas> jgraham: I know; sadly refreshing that page every once in a while isn’t really handy. A feed would be nice.
  200. # [11:04] <matjas> Consider this my +1 on fixing the @WHATWG bot. It was perfect.
  201. # [11:05] <hsivonen> matjas: also, I expect someone to land tests for spec changes that I've missed myself
  202. # [11:05] <hsivonen> matjas: so I'll find out when the html5lib test suite no longer passes
  203. # [11:05] * jgraham honestly uses hsivonen's appraoch a lot
  204. # [11:05] <jgraham> That is "if I miss something it will become obviosu over time"
  205. # [11:05] * Joins: murz (~mmurraywa@174-21-111-3.tukw.qwest.net)
  206. # [11:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: that's scary. I'm relying on you noticing stuff!
  207. # [11:05] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  208. # [11:05] <jgraham> hsivonen: Well I do notice stuff
  209. # [11:06] <matjas> Surely there must be a better way…
  210. # [11:06] <jgraham> But not everything
  211. # [11:06] <jgraham> You notice some stuff I miss, for example
  212. # [11:06] <jgraham> (but generally I keep more up to date with parser changes than other areas of the spec)
  213. # [11:07] <matjas> annevk, Hixie: Would you mind adding a syndication feed to http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker AND/OR adding oAuth support to the @WHATWG Twitter bot? I really liked that guy.
  214. # [11:08] <annevk> matjas, can you fix the WHATWG bot?
  215. # [11:08] <annevk> matjas, I think all it takes is for someone to write the OAuth part
  216. # [11:08] <matjas> annevk: I would certainly like to give it a try. What’s it written in?
  217. # [11:09] * Quits: WHATWG (~apermanen@cpe-76-168-89-210.socal.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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  220. # [11:10] <annevk> I would assume Perl, but I think any service would work for Hixie
  221. # [11:10] <annevk> he just needs a simple service that he can hand the message that puts it on twitter
  222. # [11:12] <matjas> In that case, adding a syndication feed and passing it through something like TwitterFeed sounds like the easiest solution.
  223. # [11:13] <matjas> But I’ll see if I can write a simple service where he can POST to. Would be much better.
  224. # [11:13] <annevk> I'm afraid for syndication feed load with html5.org
  225. # [11:13] <annevk> though I suppose I could use one of those services that only fetches it every 5 minutes and takes over the load
  226. # [11:14] <annevk> Google bought one of those right?
  227. # [11:16] * Joins: WHATWG (~apermanen@cpe-76-168-89-210.socal.res.rr.com)
  228. # [11:17] <jgraham> Fetching every five minutes seems way to often. ANyway, I think you might be thinking of FeedBurner
  229. # [11:18] <annevk> I'll think it over; I'd prefer just fixing the twitter API
  230. # [11:18] <hsivonen> annevk: you could have a cron job dumping the data into a plain file instead of hitting svn for each GET
  231. # [11:19] <annevk> I could do lots of things to complicate my life, but do I want to?
  232. # [11:20] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Did you finish the GitHub pull of the spec?
  233. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> jgraham: no, it timed out without completing :(
  234. # [11:21] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Not that surprising; I did it locally and ended yo with a 5Gb repo
  235. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> good god
  236. # [11:21] <jgraham> After a few hours
  237. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> epic
  238. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> matjas: I wonder if CIA.vc or somewhere might have some way of generating a feed from svn
  239. # [11:24] * MikeSmith looks
  240. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> or oloh
  241. # [11:24] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  242. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> ohloh
  243. # [11:25] <annevk> looking for http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdShzYpa6i8 ?
  244. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> that's sick
  245. # [11:28] <jgraham> MikeSmith: So if we put the Git repo on html5.org and synced it using cron, one could write out an atom file using a post-recieve hook. The only problem is that people cloning the repo would burn through bandwidth
  246. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> hmm
  247. # [11:29] <jgraham> But the feed would just be a static file and so play nicely with web arch
  248. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> I agree with annevk sentiment about complicating life
  249. # [11:30] <jgraham> :)
  250. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> CIA.vc does feeds
  251. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> feed://cia.vc/stats/project/Chromium/.rss
  252. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> feed://cia.vc/stats/project/V8/.rss
  253. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> etc.
  254. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> so I can will add the svn rep to CIA.vc now
  255. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> then we get IRC integration too
  256. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> to #html-wg or here or wherever
  257. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> well, not integration
  258. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> but notifications at least
  259. # [11:32] <jgraham> I think I would like notifications here, but maybe others would disagree
  260. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> project name: html5-spec ?
  261. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> html-spec ?
  262. # [11:34] <jgraham> html is better
  263. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> k
  264. # [11:34] <jgraham> webapps is perhaps more accurate
  265. # [11:34] <jgraham> well sort of
  266. # [11:35] * Philip` would probably prefer not to get floods of automated notifications into here, lest this becomes like #html-wg
  267. # [11:36] <jgraham> Would it be floods? What's the median/max number of checkins per day?
  268. # [11:37] <Philip`> If it's only SVN checkins then it might not be bad
  269. # [11:37] <jgraham> Yeah, I wouldn't want bugspam here
  270. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> feed://cia.vc/stats/project/html-spec/.rss
  271. # [11:39] <zcorpan> i'd prefer if notifications were left for #html-wg and #whatwg is just discussion :)
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  275. # [11:45] <matjas> My Perl skills are lame, but this looks useful AFAICT: http://ashbentiel.mine.nu/tweet.pl
  276. # [11:46] <annevk> now all we need is wake Hixie
  277. # [11:46] <hsivonen> I'm rather impressed that the Windows 7 Action Center manages to link crashes of 3rd-party software to relevant documentation on the site of the 3rd-party software provider
  278. # [11:47] <hsivonen> maybe Hixie is on a Thanksgiving vacation
  279. # [11:48] <zcorpan> http://www.xkcd.com/786/
  280. # [11:49] <jgraham> You think that Hixie will get left off the web rollercoaster if he takes vacation?
  281. # [11:51] <zcorpan> i'm just worried we'll have implemented all his specs while he's away...
  282. # [11:52] <jgraham> And built nuke-riding city ships just to alleviate the boredom?
  283. # [11:52] * Quits: akamike (~akamike@94-193-106-14.zone7.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: akamike)
  284. # [11:52] <zcorpan> yeah
  285. # [11:52] <jgraham> Good thing he's in America then. Vacation is basically against the law, so he'll be back soon
  286. # [11:53] <jgraham> Although imagine how much more ionteresting standards flame wars would be if the opposing factions had nuke-riding city ships under their command
  287. # [11:56] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  288. # [11:56] <matjas> “No img/@longdesc in HTML5? BOOM!”
  289. # [11:57] <zcorpan> well then you leave us no choice but to blow up the earth
  290. # [11:58] * jgraham now has some sort of standards/Girl Genius mashup going on in his head Adventure! Romance! Mad Standards!
  291. # [12:03] <jgraham> Does anyone remember that page with a huge number of nested <strong> elements?
  292. # [12:14] <matjas> On http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker, isn’t this wrong? function readCookie(name) { return localStorage["tracker-" + ""] }
  293. # [12:15] <matjas> Why would you want to + "" if not for implicit toString coercion?
  294. # [12:15] <matjas> Should probably be something like function readCookie(name) { return localStorage["tracker-" + name] }, right?
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  296. # [12:16] <zcorpan> yeah
  297. # [12:17] <zcorpan> feel free to fix, it's in http://code.google.com/p/html5/source/checkout
  298. # [12:18] <matjas> Cool, I did not know that!
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  314. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> I assume from hsivonen 's latest tweet that he must be working on a sanitzer
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  317. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> ah sweet, I got another patch landed in V8 source
  318. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/v8/source/detail?r=5893
  319. # [12:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: just planning at this point
  320. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> ok
  321. # [13:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: since the sanitizer isn't targeted to Firefox 4, all Firefox 4 blockers get service first
  322. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> yeah, I can imagine
  323. # [13:01] <jgraham> hsivonen: Have you looked at what the html5lib sanitizer does? It has some (crazy, regexp based) CSS filtering
  324. # [13:01] <hsivonen> jgraham: I haven't
  325. # [13:01] <hsivonen> I was planning on providing an interface for pluggable CSS sanitizers
  326. # [13:01] <jgraham> Which you need in order to remove scripts
  327. # [13:01] <hsivonen> so that the Gecko version could use the existing Gecko CSS sanitizer and the Java version could use something else
  328. # [13:02] <jgraham> At least if you target browsers that can run scripts from CSS
  329. # [13:02] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  330. # [13:02] <hsivonen> yeah, using a CSS sanitizer is part of the requirements
  331. # [13:03] <hsivonen> at some point, I think I will need to learn which SVG attributes are defined in terms of CSS in such a way that they can carry dangerous payloads
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  334. # [13:08] <hsivonen> jgraham: whoa. html5lib is much more liberal with allowed protocols than I had expected
  335. # [13:09] <hsivonen> otoh, there are fewer acceptable CSS properties than I expected
  336. # [13:09] <hsivonen> also, Semantics MathML isn't allowed
  337. # [13:09] <jgraham> hsivonen: (I have not been much involved with this part of the library)
  338. # [13:10] <jgraham> In particular the list of allowed stuff mainly came from Sam and Jacques
  339. # [13:10] <hsivonen> hmm. so it sanitizer between the tokenizer and the tree builder
  340. # [13:10] * Quits: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  341. # [13:10] <hsivonen> instead of sanitizing after the tree builder when it's known if something is an HTML, SVG or MathML element
  342. # [13:10] * Joins: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  343. # [13:10] <jgraham> I think it predates foreignContent
  344. # [13:11] <jgraham> |Foreign Content"
  345. # [13:11] * Quits: botz0r (~botz0r@ip-213-49-112-75.dsl.scarlet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
  346. # [13:11] <jgraham> s/|/"/
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  349. # [13:14] <jgraham> (that is, althought there is support for SVG elements, that was based on Sam's experimental liberal XHTML parser. Although presumably that assigned namespaceness in treebuilder too)
  350. # [13:17] <hsivonen> for blog comments and such, it might be useful to have a feature for normalizing all the "semantic" aliases of <i> to <i> for simpler styling
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  354. # [13:25] <hsivonen> hmm. does http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/parsing.html#determining-the-character-encoding ever care about /mode/ being "charset"?
  355. # [13:26] <hsivonen> it seems to me it only cares about it being "pragma" vs not
  356. # [13:28] <hsivonen> oh. it does care
  357. # [13:29] <hsivonen> so <meta charset="UTF-8" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"> doesn't sniff to UTF-8
  358. # [13:29] <hsivonen> but <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" charset="UTF-8"> does
  359. # [13:29] <hsivonen> looks like spec bug to me...
  360. # [13:30] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-149-115-170.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  361. # [13:30] <hsivonen> I hate it when I find spec bugs when I just want to implement and be done
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  365. # [13:33] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  366. # [13:37] <zcorpan> hsivonen: how does it not sniff to utf-8? "If the attribute's name is "charset": If charset is still set to null, let charset be the encoding corresponding to the attribute's value, and set mode to "charset"."
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  368. # [13:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the content attribute sets mode again, this time to pragma
  369. # [13:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan: when content="" comes after charset=""
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  372. # [13:41] <zcorpan> hsivonen: oh, i missed step 9
  373. # [13:42] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yeah, spec bug
  374. # [13:42] * jgraham wonders is document.written meta charset has an effect
  375. # [13:42] <jgraham> *if
  376. # [13:43] <hsivonen> jgraham: In Gecko, it doesn't
  377. # [13:43] <hsivonen> jgraham: but Hixie WONTFIXed the spec bug: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10803
  378. # [13:43] <hsivonen> I didn't change Gecko according to WONTFIXing
  379. # [13:43] <jgraham> Ah. I had a feeling it was something like that
  380. # [13:43] <jgraham> Any idea what webkit or IE do?
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  382. # [13:44] <hsivonen> jgraham: testing other browsers and reopening certain bugs is on my todo list
  383. # [13:48] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  384. # [13:50] <hsivonen> whoa. the "in head" handling of the charset attribute seems bogus as far as the UTF-16 part goes
  385. # [13:50] <hsivonen> sigh.
  386. # [13:51] <hsivonen> the difference between the spec and Gecko is larger than I thought
  387. # [13:52] <hsivonen> oh. UTF-16 gets handled later
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  399. # [14:22] <annevk> damnit http://www.ragingplatypus.com/ is offline
  400. # [14:22] <annevk> fix it
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  625. # [15:09] <hsivonen> aargh. what's wrong with validator.nu *now*?
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  630. # [15:14] <hsivonen> looks like a network problem
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  638. # [15:35] <matjas> hsivonen: Fixed already? Works fine here/now
  639. # [15:35] <hsivonen> matjas: does validator.nu work or only html5.validator.nu?
  640. # [15:36] <hsivonen> matjas: the latter is unaffected iff you happen to have CSS and JS cached already
  641. # [15:36] <matjas> hsivonen: both worked just a minute ago, but now only html5.validator.nu seems to work
  642. # [15:37] <matjas> hsivonen: does validator.nu have a cache manifest?
  643. # [15:37] <hsivonen> matjas: no
  644. # [15:38] <matjas> must've been some weird browser caching then
  645. # [15:39] <hsivonen> I guess I should make html5.validator.nu load CSS and JS from itself instead of loading them from the server that runs about.validator.nu and validator.nu
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  649. # [15:44] <hsivonen> hmm. maybe bugzilla.validator.nu has a bad robots.txt after reinstall and a crawler is indexing it
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  657. # [15:59] <fortes> What's the best way to express a boolean property using html5 microdata?
  658. # [16:00] <annevk> there's no design patterns afaik
  659. # [16:00] <annevk> HTML5 itself uses presence/absence of attributes for booleans
  660. # [16:00] <fortes> annevk: So perhaps I should mint a data- attribute to indicate my boolean property?
  661. # [16:01] <fortes> Something like <div itemscope data-foo> ?
  662. # [16:01] <Lachy> fortes, depends what you're trying to use it for
  663. # [16:01] <annevk> data- != microdata
  664. # [16:02] <fortes> I'm using metadata to construct a table of contents
  665. # [16:02] <fortes> Where each item is an article
  666. # [16:02] <Lachy> microdata is useful when you want to share data with 3rd parties via a shared vocabulary. data-* is useful if you just want extra metadata for your own scripts to use internally on the page.
  667. # [16:02] <fortes> And I need the ability to set a boolean flag or two on the articles
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  669. # [16:03] <fortes> Microdata also seems to be useful when the content is the data as well, no?
  670. # [16:03] <fortes> Like an article's title
  671. # [16:05] <Lachy> yes, it can be, depending on what use cases and problems your trying to solve.
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  673. # [16:05] <fortes> From what I've played around with it seemed that <h2 itemprop="title">Article Title</h2> was a better choice than <div data-title="..."><h2>....
  674. # [16:05] <Lachy> you could just use class="title"
  675. # [16:06] <fortes> True, although I was concerned with name conflicts
  676. # [16:06] <fortes> goal is also to eventually be able to use native document.getItems
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  678. # [16:07] <Lachy> that's not a goal, that's a specific solution for achieving some other goal.
  679. # [16:09] <Lachy> you could just as easily use document.querySelectorAll("[data-title]"); or .querySelectorAll(".title");
  680. # [16:10] <fortes> slightly more complicated since there is a bit of structure. each article has a title, author, etc
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  682. # [16:10] <fortes> but yes, since doc.getItems doesn't exist, I've been implementing it manually
  683. # [16:11] <Lachy> ok, so then you have a requriement for obtaining easily scriptable and structured data from your page?
  684. # [16:13] <fortes> yes. balancing performance with ease of authoring
  685. # [16:15] * Philip` sees PNaCl, and wonders what the "native" in its name means
  686. # [16:16] <Philip`> since it's no longer got native machine code (except to the extent that e.g. JavaScript does, via JITs), and you can't use native APIs or anything like that
  687. # [16:17] <Philip`> Seems the main thing it adds that's fundamentally impossible with JS is shared-memory concurrency, which everyone nowadays hates
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  689. # [16:20] <matjas> Weird, document.images is 70% slower than getElementsByTagName('img') in Chrome. In every other browser the images collection is faster.
  690. # [16:20] * webr3 mentions something about RDFa Core 1.1 and that kind of data..
  691. # [16:21] <matjas> Well, /s/Chrome/WebKit/
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  693. # [16:23] <gsnedders> So, hmm… fun doing analyis of Sputnik failures. The two engines that have actually tried to impl ES5 have 74 and 75 failures, but only 50 of those are shared between the two
  694. # [16:23] <gsnedders> Of those 50 failure, there are seven of those that both SpiderMonkey and V8 pass.
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  720. # [19:22] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  721. # [19:22] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  722. # [19:22] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  779. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> Interesting: http://blog.benstrong.com/2010/11/google-and-microsoft-cheat-on-slow.html
  780. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> Probably a good idea.
  781. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> (Cheating on slow start, I mean.)
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  837. # [23:58] * riven` is now known as riven
  838. # [23:59] * Quits: bckenny (~bckenny@adsl-99-154-54-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  839. # Session Close: Sat Nov 27 00:00:00 2010

The end :)